RAIDING BRIGAND DPS FLAMING THREAD

[Mialia]

<div></div><div></div>We (brigands and swashies) are T2 DPS. We have no pet to make sure we dont die. (ok we have chain armor, so we cant say it's almost fair...? well not really but anyway)We have no heal, feign death or ressurection spells. (we can choose int AA line to feign death but it's not the point)We cant solo heroic encounters and finish the fight with full life. (ok, sometimes 75% life and mana)Why are our DPS lower than summoners ? Playing a rogue is more dangerous than any mage, so we have to do more damage to be fair right ?Im' not saying summoners are too powerfull (who EVER dare to say that :p ), but it's harder for us to solo mobs.<p>Message Edited by Mialia on <span class=date_text>06-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:07 PM</span>

[Daen]

#1 Summoners are supposed ot be T3 DPS#2 I can avg a constant 1K DPS on raids, with power steal poison, wisdom AA line, and buffs from a DPS group setup for raids. Summoners run anywhere from 200 under that to 300 over that but don't sustain near as constant a number.#3 When I go all out using all my abilities and have DR from an Iquisitor I can spike upwards of 1800 DPS. Way over that of Summoners for burst DPS, and this isn't just a burst, I have hit 1800 DPS for a 1 minute fight.If the raid sets up groups correctly, and we are specced correctly, with the right poisons and Masters and order of attacks to deal the most DPS we can easily top the DPS charts most of the fights.Now that we have that over with, yes we are T2 dps, we need nerfing.<div></div>

[Mialia]

<div></div>I dont care about raids or AA lines. Because DPS on raid is not specifically OUR dps. AA lines are choices, but the average lvl 30 brigand life is hard if he wants to solo.High end brigand DPS is fine in raids, but that's all.<p>Message Edited by Mialia on <span class=date_text>05-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:38 AM</span>

[Gyilok]

<P>there are no tiers in game that determine what dps a class does, there is great selection of possibilities of damage dealt, but it all depends on what the player is focusing or not focusing on</P> <P>there is only you, your gear, your skill upgrades and your playing skills, its the guy behind the screen that will decide if you only come out higher then priests, or put the assassins and summoners behind you on the parse</P>

[kyth]

    if you didnt see, summoners are on the chop block in lu24...just ask nektulos.ishbu i am sure he will tell you all about it. Not to mention how unfair it is to revamp his perfectly balanced class!<div></div>

[The-Fourm-Pirate]

Rogues have Debuffs as utility, the best in the game. Summoners have pets and a few nice buffs and useful abilities like necros can rez and conjurers can summon people to them.

[noetici]

<DIV>Quote from OP:</DIV> <DIV>~</DIV> <DIV>Playing a rogue is more dangerous than any mage</DIV> <DIV>~</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Brigands are NOT as fragile as casters are. We wear chain, and have stances, etc. If something goes askew while fighting a mob as a caster, chances are you're SOL unless you can root/stun/etc to keep both mobs off of you. Like most classes, summoners can do impressive things in some circumstances. So can brigands. Like, avoid AE, and stun a hell of a lot (hehehe, we'll see after LU24), etc. We can also root mobs to death, and debuff the hell out of anything that crosses out path.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Play a warlock for a day and tell me it's less dangerous. Really, I mean it. Just because you've seen a mage solo a heroic encounter and maintain high health, does NOT mean that's what would happn every time or even the majority of the time. Chain makes a HUGE difference and so do our stuns.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not trying to flame, but what you said really is not true.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In regards to the rest of your post, summoners are already having their DPS decreased. Also, keep in mind that brigands can continue whacking at things in a group or raid environment regardless of an AE, unlike summoners' pets who die almost instantly in AE.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>~Balance, 70 brigand/ Liloo, 48 Warlock/ and Shavaun, 62 Fury</DIV> <DIV>   Crushbone</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- edited for forgetting to capitalise "o" in SOL</DIV><p>Message Edited by noeticity on <span class=date_text>05-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:36 PM</span>

[Ishbu]

<P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kythik wrote:<BR>    if you didnt see, summoners are on the chop block in lu24...just ask nektulos.ishbu i am sure he will tell you all about it. Not to mention how unfair it is to revamp his perfectly balanced class!<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><BR>Id love to know when and where I said that.......</P> <P>However; I can show you several examples where I said we did need to be scaled down some.  Key word some.  </P> <P>Now that that is out of the way, is the OP serious?  </P>

[kyth]

      Is that like Screaming about brigands to get swashbucklers upgraded?<div></div>

[Ishbu]

or rangers

[kyth]

    they just need to make everyone do 1k dps who cares about utility!<div></div>

[Ishbu]

<DIV>You think they should nerf like half the classes in game then?</DIV>

[kyth]

    you know that's what they want to do anyways...lol.  then no1 will say "why is suchandsuch class doing more dps then me".  <div></div>

[Baynne]

my warden loves you Kyth <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[kyth]

eh?<div></div>

[Riversideblues]

summoners are not supposed to be t3 dps, and considering how much more ultility we have over necro/conj i dont see a problem with them having more dps than us, because as we've seen with rangers, things are going to get bad and stay bad considering the way sony likes to do things<div></div>

[Gyilok]

uhm tan got more utility then a healing-fding-rezzing-mana sharding necro, i wanna have his char

[kyth]

<div></div>    I love people saying brigands have so much Utility.  So lets look at the Utility of a brigand.Solo, well solo utility is what killing solo mobs?  ok yay?Group:  Group Sneak  and Sneak-- Completely useless in t7             Debuffs -- Dispatch is fairly useless with how fast group mobs die.             DPS --  Not a utility             Snares - Oh come on who uses snares?             Tanking -  Ok i can tank HoF .  Its funny and I laugh at the fact i can do it.             Stuns -- taken care of with Lu24             PATHFINDING -- yes that must be it.  Pathfinding is the best utility EVER.  so useful i never have it up.Raids:  Group Sneak  and Sneak-- Completely useless in t7              Debuffs -- This is the only utility on raids that makes brigands shine.              DPS --  Not a utility and well it has been "Fixed" so we do a lot less.               Tanking -  I have tanked several "EPIC" mobs but come on...why should i be able to do this.  Guess its my gear =p             Amazing Reflexes -- Cool i can stay in not take AE's and debuff/dps.  Mages can avoid AE's as can rangers.  Swash, well i have said from the begining that they should have gotten it also.  Assassins do              better dps anyway now.    Someone tell me how this "Utility" is game breaking?  I must be too stupid to see it....  In my opinion,  raids are the palce where brigand debuffs are really the most useful.  <div></div><p>Message Edited by kythik on <span class=date_text>05-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:37 AM</span>

[Riversideblues]

<div><blockquote><hr>kythik wrote:<div></div>               Debuffs -- This is the only utility on raids that makes brigands shine.      <hr></blockquote>but when our debuffs can trivialize orange encounters to become leages easier than before it shows are debuffs are gigantic, but that's what we dowhat do summoners do? yeah, they totally needed a nerf, but that doesn't change the fact they don't need to become to ranger of t7</div>

[Ishbu]

<DIV>I dont think anyone will argue that summoners dont have great utility for groups/solo play.  When it comes to raids however the brigand debuffs are the best utility in game.</DIV>

[Carna]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ishboozor wrote:<BR> <DIV>I dont think anyone will argue that summoners dont have great utility for groups/solo play.  When it comes to raids however the brigand debuffs are the best utility in game.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>One might reasonably argue that healing and rez are.

[Riversideblues]

<div><blockquote><hr>Carnagh wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Ishboozor wrote: <div>I dont think anyone will argue that summoners dont have great utility for groups/solo play.  When it comes to raids however the brigand debuffs are the best utility in game.</div> <hr> </blockquote>One might reasonably argue that healing and rez are.<hr></blockquote>but ill argue that giving at least 50% more dps to the whole raid is pretty fantasticbrigands are just fine where they are, and it's true that summoners are overpowered, but with less other abilities they should still be doing more damage than rogues as a whole</div>

[kyth]

    Ya see i do not agree there.  We have what 3 debuffs that are really useful (the snare line /shrug).  I wouldnt say a brigand trivializes an OJ encounter.  Ya we make it so DPS goes on a lot easier, but we also rely on debuffs and luck when getting ours on.  Its not like dispatch/devitalize/rake never miss, because they do.  <div></div>

[Ishbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kythik wrote:<BR>     Its not like dispatch/devitalize/rake never miss, because they do.  <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Thats true, but once those do land everyone else can sudenly land things.  Id be happy as can be if just some other class had equivalent debuffs.  Not lower the brigand ones as they are borderline required for some encounters, but just let someone else have an equivalent.</P>

[Snarks]

our brigand gets 1500-2000 dps all the time, and has better debuffs than any class in the game, and the utility that mages dream of! sorry, but you arent playing your class right or something, rogues are t1 dps oh and he duel wields <div></div>

[verydanger]

<div><blockquote><hr>Riversideblues wrote:<div>but ill argue that giving at least 50% more dps to the whole raid is pretty fantasticbrigands are just fine where they are, and it's true that summoners are overpowered, but with less other abilities they should still be doing more damage than rogues as a whole</div><hr></blockquote>And I would argue that 50% more dps to a raid, while being theoretically possible, in everyday raiding is fantasy numbers. We still have debuff caps, remember?Lets take physical mitigation debuffing for example: (assuming all Master 1 spells and CA's)Shadowknight - Despoil  - debuff mitigation by ~1600 Dirge - Clara's Catastrophic Cacophony - debuff mitigation by ~1050 Swashbuckler - Whirl of Blades - debuff mitigation by ~840 Swashbuckler - Guile - debuff mitigation by ~490Inquisitor - Convict - debuff mitigation by ~630Assasin - Constriction - debuff mitigation by ~510T7 Ruin Hex Doll - debuff mitigation by 774-947This is excluding any other debuffs I might have missed, lower tier poisons that debuff pysical mitigation, and any AA's that do the same. The listed debuffs sum up to almost 6k pysical mitigation debuffed, which AFAIK is way above the cap, even before the brigand entered the picture (of course, this is assuming all mentioned classes are present, are actively debuffing and do have Master 1's). I dont have time to do the same math for magical mitigation debuffing, but I'm sure that will show similar numbers, as pretty much every casting class can debuff one or several resistances, add to that INT hex dolls, warding ebb poison, scout snare lines...Not saying this to get involved in a T2 dps argument, just dont wanna see my class get placed on a pedestal for something that aint happening. The less people that roll brigands thinking that Dispatch makes everyone nuke twice as hard the better, for everyone involved... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Carna]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> snarkteeth wrote:<BR>our brigand gets 1500-2000 dps all the time, and has better debuffs than any class in the game, and the utility that mages dream of!<BR><BR>sorry, but you arent playing your class right or something, rogues are t1 dps<BR><BR>oh and he duel wields<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Then take your AEing, offensive debuffing, hate transfering, self hasting [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and betray.</P> <P>Oh and... Our Swashbuckler does so much damage the mobs just run away rather than stand and fight him.</P>

[Ishbu]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> verydanger wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Riversideblues wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>but ill argue that giving at least 50% more dps to the whole raid is pretty fantastic<BR><BR>brigands are just fine where they are, and it's true that summoners are overpowered, but with less other abilities they should still be doing more damage than rogues as a whole<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>And I would argue that 50% more dps to a raid, while being theoretically possible, in everyday raiding is fantasy numbers. We still have debuff caps, remember?<BR><BR>Lets take physical mitigation debuffing for example: (assuming all Master 1 spells and CA's)<BR><BR>Shadowknight - Despoil  - debuff mitigation by ~1600<BR>Dirge - Clara's Catastrophic Cacophony - debuff mitigation by ~1050<BR>Swashbuckler - Whirl of Blades - debuff mitigation by ~840<BR>Swashbuckler - Guile - debuff mitigation by ~490<BR>Inquisitor - Convict - debuff mitigation by ~630<BR>Assasin - Constriction - debuff mitigation by ~510<BR>T7 Ruin Hex Doll - debuff mitigation by 774-947<BR><BR>This is excluding any other debuffs I might have missed, lower tier poisons that debuff pysical mitigation, and any AA's that do the same.<BR><BR>The listed debuffs sum up to almost 6k pysical mitigation debuffed, which AFAIK is way above the cap, even before the brigand entered the picture (of course, this is assuming all mentioned classes are present, are actively debuffing and do have Master 1's).<BR><BR>I dont have time to do the same math for magical mitigation debuffing, but I'm sure that will show similar numbers, as pretty much every casting class can debuff one or several resistances, add to that INT hex dolls, warding ebb poison, scout snare lines...<BR><BR>Not saying this to get involved in a T2 dps argument, just dont wanna see my class get placed on a pedestal for something that aint happening. The less people that roll brigands thinking that Dispatch makes everyone nuke twice as hard the better, for everyone involved... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Can I point out that it is taking your counterpart (the swashbuckler) and 4 other classes to get a little higher than just a brigand? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Btw, that 50% isnt fantasy.  We did some rather extreme testing this week to find out just exact what was going on.  Put it this way, my single target nuke on Tarinax without a brigand in the raid averaged less than 450 damage per cast.  It was resisted a few times and hit fairly low the rest.  With a brigand it hit on average (was 3 more casts in total) for over 800.  No, it is quite 50% increase, but you have to admit it is fairly substantial.  The only change to the raid was a brigand instead of a swashbuckler.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again though, I dont want brigands nerfed per se, but I want another class (I dont particulary care wich, would prefer swashbucklers or rangers) to be able to debuff physcial, magical, or both at a level nearly equal to that of a brigand.  The reason being, against an orange con mob, the brigand has to get lucky to land their debuff, but that makes it so EVERYONE else can land theirs.  In your stuff above, about 3 or 4 people have to get lucky so that an orange con raid mob is sufficiently debuffed for everyone.  What is more likely to happen, one person getting lucky or 3?  And that is assuming your raid has all of those other clasees.</DIV>

[CarlsonTheFly]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>snarkteeth wrote:our brigand gets 1500-2000 dps all the time, and has better debuffs than any class in the game, and the utility that mages dream of!sorry, but you arent playing your class right or something, rogues are t1 dpsoh and he duel wields<div></div><hr></blockquote>I am calling total bull crap on this (well, except the debuffs part).___________________Minimus Maximus70 Gnome brigandAncient VengeanceNajena server<div></div>

[Ishbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CarlsonTheFlyer wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> snarkteeth wrote:<BR>our brigand gets 1500-2000 dps all the time, and has better debuffs than any class in the game, and the utility that mages dream of!<BR><BR>sorry, but you arent playing your class right or something, rogues are t1 dps<BR><BR>oh and he duel wields<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I am calling total bull crap on this (well, except the debuffs part).<BR><BR>___________________<BR>Minimus Maximus<BR>70 Gnome brigand<BR>Ancient Vengeance<BR>Najena server<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Look man, no offense but why is it so hard to beleive that a brigand in one of the better guilds out there (Eternal Chaos in this case) is doing more dps than you personally can do?  If our brigand wasnt capable of doing that kind of dps he would not be our brigand, its just that simple.  I personally wouldnt accept anything less, and in the end, for our guild, I get to call the shots <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Snarks]

I guess I didnt expect such a brass reaction sorry if i've offended anyone <div></div>

[verydanger]

<div><blockquote><hr>Ishboozor wrote:<div></div><div>Can I point out that it is taking your counterpart (the swashbuckler) and 4 other classes to get a little higher than just a brigand? </div> <div> </div> <div>Btw, that 50% isnt fantasy.  We did some rather extreme testing this week to find out just exact what was going on.  Put it this way, my single target nuke on Tarinax without a brigand in the raid averaged less than 450 damage per cast.  It was resisted a few times and hit fairly low the rest.  With a brigand it hit on average (was 3 more casts in total) for over 800.  No, it is quite 50% increase, but you have to admit it is fairly substantial.  The only change to the raid was a brigand instead of a swashbuckler.</div> <div> </div> <div>Again though, I dont want brigands nerfed per se, but I want another class (I dont particulary care wich, would prefer swashbucklers or rangers) to be able to debuff physcial, magical, or both at a level nearly equal to that of a brigand.  The reason being, against an orange con mob, the brigand has to get lucky to land their debuff, but that makes it so EVERYONE else can land theirs.  In your stuff above, about 3 or 4 people have to get lucky so that an orange con raid mob is sufficiently debuffed for everyone.  What is more likely to happen, one person getting lucky or 3?  And that is assuming your raid has all of those other clasees.</div><hr></blockquote>Yes, brigands can (for a short duration) debuff substantially larger amounts of mitigation than any other class, almost 6k to all damage types. That is quite a strong ability I agree... in groups. Like I'm trying to point out, in a full raidforce (where everybody is conscious of using their debuffs) that whole 6k might just as well be tossed on a already fully debuffed mob, with no return whatsoever.However, here I make the assumption that epic mobs follow the same pattern as heroic and solo encounters (when it comes to debuffs and their effects). Such mobs must be debuffed about 4000k to any mitigation, slightly less, in order to reach the cap (where your attacks do exactly 50% more damage). This can easily be tested an confirmed, and the figure 50% is perfectly in line with the Dev statement that debuffs cap out at 50%.Do epics mobs work differently? Possibly so... I highly doubt it though. Personally I have never conducted any tests like these on epics. Why? I do not believe you can get correct results, unless you have a raid force acting rigorously on VERY specific orders not to mess with the numbers. As such, I'm afraid I cant give your observations much credit, unless you can give me futher info on how this test was set up and executed?As for orange cons and landing those first crucial debuffs, I'm not prepared to agree brigands in any way have 'monopolized' that function on a raid either. Our debuffs are on 60 sec recast timer after all, and they are combat arts (and as such are wasted for a full recast cycle if they miss). Correct me if I'm wrong, but the caster class debuffs are on much shorter recast timers, some even placed on summoner pets as a proc... I could be wrong though, caster classes is not my cup of tea.</div>

[Tokam]

<P>Ooo - I have both clases at 70... my necro raids, and my brig mostly stands around looking [Removed for Content] sexy (kerra all the way baby). Scuse me while I waffle amongst my betters.</P> <P>I cant see the upcoming nerfs affecting my necros raid dps much (I will keep a mage pet out of AoE) - but to say that I play my necro for her utility is a bit iffy. I play a necro because she is the tier zero harvester, good solo (ie has utility) and does lots of damage in a raid.</P> <P>This is how I see my raid utility. I dont really rez unless the pally / dirge / whoever is busy - because our res has been bugged since inception and only replenishes 15% health / power, I land my 2 debuffs early, joust pet (sigh) and abuse arch lich as much as I dare. Occasionally I am called on for a pet pull as I can recover from a death quicker than a conjourer if the MT decides to let me have a go at tanking. I use FD more to cut down on repair costs than anything, but being close to top of the hate chain I dont get much chance when things go awry. Hearts give me a chance to spam the raid with a few funny macros and thats about it. I am (ocasionally) moved to the MT group to buff desiese / poison resists a bit higher so that would count as utility - in my usual trouby group I buff sta and power pool a little bit which I guess is a small bit of utility.</P> <P>*apologises for big dense paragraph*</P> <P>That about sums up my thoughts on necros raid utility - pet pulls are the only really usefull / unique thing (I think my guild just doesn't like wasting conjourer dps <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) Hearts do get summoned for healers mid-fight but I remain unconvinced about their real value. Our group utility is obviously considerably larger, and our dps corespondingly lower. Our solo utility is massive, and our dps suffers further - but you cant do both at once :smileytongue:</P> <P>PS - I deffo prefer the cat (bring back the angry kiwi please!) but Ishbu has a nice sig too <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[mikemcmodmi]

Didn't they change it a while back so mobs have no mitigation?  When you hit the mob and it's debuffed, you're not hitting closer to the described damage you're hitting over the described damage.  The question is is there a limit to how much mitigation it can be debuffed and I'm not sure if there is a limit.  How could you test it out?

[Ishbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> verydanger wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR><BR>As for orange cons and landing those first crucial debuffs, I'm not prepared to agree brigands in any way have 'monopolized' that function on a raid either. Our debuffs are on 60 sec recast timer after all, and they are combat arts (and as such are wasted for a full recast cycle if they miss). Correct me if I'm wrong, but the caster class debuffs are on much shorter recast timers, some even placed on summoner pets as a proc... I could be wrong though, caster classes is not my cup of tea.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I dont think you really understand the gravity of the situation.  Without a brigand getting those major debuffs on the mob, to allow other classes to land theirs, you are leaving the fate of the raid up to luck.  I keep refering to tarinax of course because in t7 he is the only orange con raid mob(screw that nightblood in HoS), although in other tiers there were more and with TFD there are more orange con ones being introduced. </P> <P>Here's an example.  With no brigand debuffs, I opened the tarinax fight using my INT hex doll to decrease resistance to all magical based attacks.  It was resisted.  That is 8 seconds, so after this 8 seconds, I sent in my pet to attack.  He used aery whip (was using the scout pet at the time) it missed.  He then auto attacked and proc'd the debuff to heat/cold/magic.  Then Tarinax spun around and killed him followed by me, because in this span of about 10 total seconds almost every taunt and every other ability the rest of the raid was using was resisted or minimized so much that landing his debuff caused him to pull aggro (yes I know tarinax does have a mem blur).</P> <P>Yes, once the other classes get their debuffs stuck and keep them refreshed a brigand's debuff usefullness is considerably less becacuse of caps to debuffs.  However; against any orange con epic mob (or at least a x4 as that is all I can really talk about at this juncture) a brigand's ability to massively debuff in one fell stroke can quite easily make the difference between failure and success. </P> <P>Personally I think it is great that there is a utility like this because otherwise there would be no reason to have a brigand on a raid.  (I am still working on rationalizing my spot in a raid come LU24 if wizards are going to out dps me consistantly.)  BUT, I feel very strongly that there should be at least 1 other class with the same abilities because from the get go, eq2 has been firm about having at least 2 classes that can fill any roll.  It is the justification for two brawler classes or two enchanter classes because there certantly wasnt a need to have multiple classes doing what they do <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Riversideblues]

<div><blockquote><hr>Ishboozor wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> CarlsonTheFlyer wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> snarkteeth wrote:our brigand gets 1500-2000 dps all the time, and has better debuffs than any class in the game, and the utility that mages dream of!sorry, but you arent playing your class right or something, rogues are t1 dpsoh and he duel wields <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>I am calling total bull crap on this (well, except the debuffs part).___________________Minimus Maximus70 Gnome brigandAncient VengeanceNajena server <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>Look man, no offense but why is it so hard to beleive that a brigand in one of the better guilds out there (Eternal Chaos in this case) is doing more dps than you personally can do?  If our brigand wasnt capable of doing that kind of dps he would not be our brigand, its just that simple.  I personally wouldnt accept anything less, and in the end, for our guild, I get to call the shots <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>1200-1400 isn't toughany highers is called a group with a <b><i>zerker!:O:O</i></b></div>

[MexStrat]

<div><blockquote><hr>snarkteeth wrote:our brigand gets 1500-2000 dps all the time, and has better debuffs than any class in the game, and the utility that mages dream of! sorry, but you arent playing your class right or something, rogues are t1 dps oh and he duel wields <div></div><hr></blockquote>Not sure i have seen him DW and maintain those numbers, but I will certainly start to watch.  cause as far as i know.  He was 2-handing wurmslayer,  until recently(most likely in anticipation for the Double attack fix).</div>

[Kegofbud]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Riversideblues wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>1200-1400 isn't tough<BR><BR>any highers is called a group with a <BR><BR><BR><BR><B><I><BR>zerker!<BR>:O:O<BR></I></B></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Aye, I was going to say the same thing. lol </P> <P>Encounters vary, longer multi-mob encounters are certainly tough to parse highly in for lack of a decent AE, but single targets are certainly achievable in that range. Zerker goes a long way toward really upping the numbers. It's all in the group make up and it is very possible. <BR></P><p>Message Edited by Kegofbud on <span class=date_text>05-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:49 PM</span>

[Riversideblues]

<div><blockquote><hr>Kegofbud wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Riversideblues wrote: <div>1200-1400 isn't toughany highers is called a group with a <b><i>zerker!:O:O</i></b></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Aye, I was going to say the same thing. lol </p> <p>Encounters vary, longer multi-mob encounters are certainly tough to parse highly in for lack of a decent AE, but single targets are certainly achievable in that range. Zerker goes a long way toward really upping the numbers. It's all in the group make up and it is very possible. </p><hr></blockquote>it's completely true, keeping up high dps/haste will keep your dps pretty high inbetween ca's. and zerks pwn for that <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[ag]

Hey snarkteeth,If you've got a Brigand that's sustaining over 1200dps for more than 3 minutes, or more than 1500DPS for more than 1 minute, I want to see those logs.As those would be a precedent amongst all Brigands who have come forth with such logs to date.It's easy to throw the numbers around, it's quite another to show the logs.You know that I can do 4000DPS for 1 second? Yeah, 4000! Holy crap! oh wait... it's only for 1 second... yeah.

[Gyilok]

1500+ dps on long fights (2min+) seems only doable to me with wis line+ wurmslayer and a group that keeps you at 100% haste and dps fulltime, so the best thing you can do is hit debuffs and dots and then lay back to auto attack and drool over the 1-2k+ auto attack-double attack and poison proc hits every 1,5 seconds plus some other procs that come along

[kyth]

    1) DPS is group depenedant.  So saying Our brigand does 1500-2k dps every fight with dw says nearly nothing.  Not that i will argue because i know what i can do for dps with DW in the right group.  Also said brigand, as agra pointed out, most likely doesnt have 1500-2k dps at the end of the night when you average out the entire log of any instance.   Doing 1500-2k dps on most named with the right group is fairly easy.    2) Ish so, Swash should be able to debfuff both Offensive and Defensive?  If so then i want dps debuffs pls.  Also i believe swash debuff Skills, and the skill mechanic needs to be fixed.  I would rather see their offensive debuffs be brought in line with our defensive.  I know in t6 their debuffs were key in some fights.  Maybe not 100% needed but definately made things easier.   <div></div>

[Keldo]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>I think that the biggest issue is stacking or non stacking of other debuffs to Mitigation.  Either the caps are extremely high, or something whacky is going on with stacking. As Chix pointed out above, Swash+SK+Dirge+Temp+dolls = as much debuffing as a brigand.  I raid with these classes constantly and our brigand is not on as much.  Even tho we should be able to debuff as much as him, there is a vast and noticeable difference in actual debuffing of physical mit when he is present.  I really don't understand how this is possible unless the mit debuff cap is way way up there. As far as damage goes, I think as summoner going for damage should outdamge both rogues situationally.  Generally speaking rogues deal about the same damage, and I think its safe to say we both have things the other half wants badly. Swash debuff -56 to skills, -35% dps, and I guess 144 INT counts as offensive debuff.  That is really all, and its hardly a specialization as Mystics can debuff DPS better than us and about 6 billion classes debuff skills.  Brigands debuff 25% attack speed and 85?ish STR for offensive debuffs.  Which isn't as much but its compareable to our ability to debuff physical.  Both of these are really dwarfed by Defilers and Mystics ability to debuff a mobs DPS, attack speed and attributes, which you can't say about mitigation.  I really don't want Swashies to turn into Brigands, but I would like to be able to say that I debuff 'something' better than anyone else, like a brigand would.  As it stands now, I can't really say that.  Hopefully the AA lines in Echos flesh out Swashies as the offensive debuffer rogue.  Would be nice and I think less animosity between the two that way. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Keldoth on <span class=date_text>05-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:40 PM</span>

[Ishbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kythik wrote:<BR><BR>    2) Ish so, Swash should be able to debfuff both Offensive and Defensive?  If so then i want dps debuffs pls.  Also i believe swash debuff Skills, and the skill mechanic needs to be fixed.  I would rather see their offensive debuffs be brought in line with our defensive.  I know in t6 their debuffs were key in some fights.  Maybe not 100% needed but definately made things easier.<BR><BR>   <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You bring swash offensive debuffs in line to the point where they actually make a noticeable and significant difference and we'll see where everything stands.  Right now, a swashbuckler is doing dps and you can hardly tell if they are there.  But I really dont care of swashbucklers get some sort of equivalent, right now my first choice would be rangers (I dont care what anyone says, rangers are definitely NOT doing t1 dps).  This is completely unbiased btw since I do not play a ranger nor is there even one in my guild.</P> <P>As for t6, that entire tier seems to function differently than t7 does.  Even though there were tons of orange con epics, the brigand debuffs didnt make the difference between night and day like they do vs orange con epics now.  Some people swore by the swashbuckler for pedastal or DMP in t6 as well, personally I beleive ours wasnt even around when we beat them.  Maybe it would have made things far easier, but either way I am seeing a much greater impact on brigand debuffs in this tier than the last one.  Perhaps it has to do with scaling or replacing the level 50 debuff with debilitate, who knows.  </P>

[ag]

<blockquote><hr>Gyilok wrote:1500+ dps on long fights (2min+) seems only doable to me with wis line+ wurmslayer and a group that keeps you at 100% haste and dps fulltime, so the best thing you can do is hit debuffs and dots and then lay back to auto attack and drool over the 1-2k+ auto attack-double attack and poison proc hits every 1,5 seconds plus some other procs that come along<hr></blockquote>Agreed, and after the 14th, /wave that goodbye. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Gyilok]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> agra wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gyilok wrote:<BR> 1500+ dps on long fights (2min+) seems only doable to me with wis line+ wurmslayer and a group that keeps you at 100% haste and dps fulltime, so the best thing you can do is hit debuffs and dots and then lay back to auto attack and drool over the 1-2k+ auto attack-double attack and poison proc hits every 1,5 seconds plus some other procs that come along<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Agreed, and after the 14th, /wave that goodbye. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>hehe not sure about that, i was also surprised when i did some runs with the [Removed for Content] kilij to compare it to wurm, and the difference was much less then i expected, I'd say its group dependant on the most part, if you got high dps and haste buff constantly, you will do nice dps with wis line and a brakzars cleaver aswell, or some nice dw-s

[Riversideblues]

<div><blockquote><hr>agra wrote:Hey snarkteeth,If you've got a Brigand that's sustaining over 1200dps for more than 3 minutes, or more than 1500DPS for more than 1 minute, I want to see those logs.<hr></blockquote>case snark doesn't have his do you want mine or kyth's??? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />im going to agree with ish on this one (not just because we're guilded either) that swashes deffinatly need some debuff love and their offencive debuffs in line with our defencive ones (and of course those poor rangers) but i think as of right now brigands are just fine where they are when it comes to debuffs/dps </div>

[kyth]

    <blockquote><hr>Ishboozor wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> kythik wrote:    2) Ish so, Swash should be able to debfuff both Offensive and Defensive?  If so then i want dps debuffs pls.  Also i believe swash debuff Skills, and the skill mechanic needs to be fixed.  I would rather see their offensive debuffs be brought in line with our defensive.  I know in t6 their debuffs were key in some fights.  Maybe not 100% needed but definately made things easier.   <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>You bring swash offensive debuffs in line to the point where they actually make a noticeable and significant difference and we'll see where everything stands.  Right now, a swashbuckler is doing dps and you can hardly tell if they are there.  But I really dont care of swashbucklers get some sort of equivalent, right now my first choice would be rangers (I dont care what anyone says, rangers are definitely NOT doing t1 dps).  This is completely unbiased btw since I do not play a ranger nor is there even one in my guild.</p> <p>As for t6, that entire tier seems to function differently than t7 does.  Even though there were tons of orange con epics, the brigand debuffs didnt make the difference between night and day like they do vs orange con epics now.  Some people swore by the swashbuckler for pedastal or DMP in t6 as well, personally I beleive ours wasnt even around when we beat them.  Maybe it would have made things far easier, but either way I am seeing a much greater impact on brigand debuffs in this tier than the last one.  Perhaps it has to do with scaling or replacing the level 50 debuff with debilitate, who knows.  </p><hr></blockquote>Devitalize ad3 (havnet seen the m1) is only 360 more mitigation then debilitate m1. So that is definately not the root of the "brigands making oj's trivial"  issue.  Everyone knows rangers are way to much of a spike DPS class and they are continualy getting "retuned".   Personally i am getting tired of people [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing about our 3 debuffs. you know what, i say screw it get rid of dispatch.  Why not?  Then we all brigands do is debuff all mitigation by 2kish.  WHo needs dispatch?  Not like brigands get the most increase from it.  If i ever hear a t1 dps class compain about brigands debuffs i will kill them IRL. Now that i think about it And i hate agreeing with Chix (no really i feel dirty) but he is right.  More then enough raids can get 2k mit debuffs for what ever physical or spell they want.   Honestly ish i think your only "problem" with the brigand class is dispatch.  You know  it lasts 13 seconds on a 60sec recast.  I am getting tired of your campaign to make look brigands like gods just to get other classes upgraded.  We are not gods we just have 1 debuff that is 1/10 of godly.  I find it funny that Ish has more opinions on brigands then 95% of people that play brigands.<div></div>

[CarlsonTheFly]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Ishboozor wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>CarlsonTheFlyer wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>snarkteeth wrote:our brigand gets 1500-2000 dps all the time, and has better debuffs than any class in the game, and the utility that mages dream of!sorry, but you arent playing your class right or something, rogues are t1 dpsoh and he duel wields<div></div><hr></blockquote>I am calling total bull crap on this (well, except the debuffs part).___________________Minimus Maximus70 Gnome brigandAncient VengeanceNajena server<div></div><hr></blockquote>Look man, no offense but why is it so hard to beleive that a brigand in one of the better guilds out there (Eternal Chaos in this case) is doing more dps than you personally can do?  If our brigand wasnt capable of doing that kind of dps he would not be our brigand, its just that simple.  I personally wouldnt accept anything less, and in the end, for our guild, I get to call the shots <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>More dps than me? Absolutely. I am not the best. Hell, I am not even going for the Wisdom AA line. I havent finished Wurmslayer and Claymore quests yet, but getting close. I do have pretty good gear though, several relics and Deathtoll items already. I have, on occasion, hit 1000-1200 dps, but 800-1000 is the norm for me in a dps group.  I dont know what gear and poisons your brigand uses, but if you extrapolate from my numbers to yours,  weapons used would have to be significantly better than the best known in the game at this time. Maybe calling "total bull crap" was a bit too much, but so is 2000 dps.But, then again, I've been wrong before, and I'll be more than happy to put some mustard on my words and eat them, if you show me the logs._____________________Minimus Maximus70 Gnome brigandAncient VengeanceNajena server</div>

[Ishbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kythik wrote:<BR>    <BR>I find it funny that Ish has more opinions on brigands then 95% of people that play brigands.<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Sounds like someone is getting a bit touchy.

[Jida]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>MexStrat wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>snarkteeth wrote:our brigand gets 1500-2000 dps all the time, and has better debuffs than any class in the game, and the utility that mages dream of!sorry, but you arent playing your class right or something, rogues are t1 dpsoh and he duel wields<div></div><hr></blockquote>Not sure i have seen him DW and maintain those numbers, but I will certainly start to watch.  cause as far as i know.  He was 2-handing wurmslayer,  until recently(most likely in anticipation for the Double attack fix).</div><hr></blockquote>I took a look at all of the DW brigands in that guild.. The only one that is spec'ed unusually is Jerob.Pirate's Agility      4/8      1Walk the Plank    4/8     1Commandeer      4/8     1Avast Ye              8/8     1 **Sailwind               1/1     8  **Blackguard's Strength    5/8      1Torporous Strike             4/8     1Blackguard's Defense    4/8     1Blackguard's Luck          8/8     1Traumatic Swipe            0/1     8The things to note, Avast Ye and Saildwind.John</div>

[Riversideblues]

<div><blockquote><hr>CarlsonTheFlyer wrote:More dps than me? Absolutely. I am not the best. Hell, I am not even going for the Wisdom AA line. I havent finished Wurmslayer and Claymore quests yet, but getting close. I do have pretty good gear though, several relics and Deathtoll items already. I have, on occasion, hit 1000-1200 dps, but 800-1000 is the norm for me in a dps group.  I dont know what gear and poisons your brigand uses, but if you extrapolate from my numbers to yours,  weapons used would have to be significantly better than the best known in the game at this time. Maybe calling "total bull crap" was a bit too much, but so is 2000 dps.<div>But, then again, I've been wrong before, and I'll be more than happy to put some mustard on my words and eat them, if you show me the logs.</div><hr></blockquote>well, tonight in hos i was consistantly 1600-1750 on those supprise shade guys and that was with around 90% haste and the 28% dps from going berzerkand just becuase someone in WIS line doesnt mean they can't duelwield... i took off my WS and was slapping that pain named for like 1300 with all my temp buffs down so depending how your group's setup lots of things are possible2000 is a bit of a strech on longfights, maybe those eyes in DT i could see it</div>

[Siose]

<P>Out of interrest... With 1600-1750 dps dont you have aggro problems?</P> <P>What was the length of those fights against those shade guys? Whats your definition of a long fight?</P>

[kyth]

<div><blockquote><hr>Ishboozor wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> kythik wrote:    I find it funny that Ish has more opinions on brigands then 95% of people that play brigands. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>Sounds like someone is getting a bit touchy.<hr></blockquote>Not at all, its just an oberservation sir.</div>

[verydanger]

<div><blockquote><hr>Ishboozor wrote:<div></div><p>I dont think you really understand the gravity of the situation.  Without a brigand getting those major debuffs on the mob, to allow other classes to land theirs, you are leaving the fate of the raid up to luck.  I keep refering to tarinax of course because in t7 he is the only orange con raid mob(screw that nightblood in HoS), although in other tiers there were more and with TFD there are more orange con ones being introduced. </p><hr></blockquote>Ok, as I cant even remember when I raided something orange con last I will have to fold here. Maybe the combination of a brigands magical mitigation debuffs applied through melee attack is a key ability vs orange con, what do I know. However, looking at it theoretically, I cant help but to feel it should be perfectly doable without a brigand. Just have all scouts spam their snare, some of them use warding ebb poison, and as many as possible open with INT hex doll. That should put the mob -4k to all resistances (again, assuming that is the cap). And as I pointed out before, brigands might or might not land their 60 sec recast CA's (not even sure you wanna use Dispatch early on in a orange con fight), while the ones I just mentioned can 'recover' much much faster if they miss initially.</div>

[Snarks]

I guess whats important is relative to everyone. we dont monitor dps on trash, because we dont care. we dont monitor dps on eyeballs in deathtoll, or shades in halls of seeing because that stuff doesnt matter to us. what matters to us with DPS is things like mutagenic outcast, where on succesful attempts i have seen brigand get 1600+dps when the mob is immune to poison. on lower level names that arent immune poison obviously the same brigand will parse higher. thats the only reason I find it silly to say brigands are tier2 dps. if you want your class to be tier1 10-mob trash dps then I guess you have your right to argue against warlocks or whatever, but I still think its silly <div></div>

[Riversideblues]

i chock up not pulling agro to one thingmaster evades and a fantastic tank.well snark, trash has to die too, and i like raids that don't take forever and have no longer than 10-20s wait time between pulls so what's the point of always watching nameds?? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> i'd be [Removed for Content] if the other dps was slacking just on trash just so they can bust up one named<div></div>

[Siose]

<P>My problem in this thread is, that the numbers posted here are so out of the line with my experience, that its hard for me to believe it.</P> <P>Im in a raidforce which might not be the best, nonetheless we arent the worst either. Our MT group consists of guardian with everything on master (plays char since eq2 release, best equipment on server), dirge everything on master, coercer everything on master. Im usually in a group with an illu for haste and sometimes an inqui for dps. Sometimes I dont have healer or manaregger.</P> <P>Lets take Lord Vyemm as example... a fairly easy mob with no immunities, everyone should have killed him a lot of times so far and so some parses should be available.</P> <P>Following numbers are from parsefal (which is the only working parser for germans):</P> <P>Fight was 2:21 I made 1170 dps.</P> <P>I can compare this with ACT (seems bugged, works only for the person running the log correct):</P> <P>Fight was 2:15 I made 1291 dps and 1170 ext dps.</P> <P>Im using bliss, mental breach (else I run oom even with illu) and some debuff poison, pressing everytime my deaggros (adept 3) if up. I dont double damage spells, instead the deaggros. My weapon is the qeynos rapier, I took str/wis as aa-lines and my str is above cap (I dislike int-line).</P> <P>In this fight I drew aggro (to early swipe and dispatch) but survived. How  I can do additionally 400 or even more dps (looking at the posted numbers) without constantly pulling agro from my tank is beyond me. Not that I am capable of doing it.</P> <P>It would be nice the people posting here in this thread give some numbers to vyemm fights, dont think this is top secret stuff. Thanks.</P>

[verydanger]

I prepared to scratch just about everything I've said in this thread... done alot of testing today, and it seems that the 4k debuff cap no longer applies. Some months ago, on the date 02-11-2006, I posted about a test I had done the same day: (This was just before KoS was released IIRC, and I was level 60 at the time)Against 46^ Shade Prowlers is SS, with a poison listed to do 444 damage, Dispatch (debuff 3520 poison mitigation) raised the damage to 650. By adding Murderous Rake (debuff 1536 poison mitigation), the damage maxed out at exactly 666, which one could assume was the cap. As you can see, Dispatch alone came very close to reaching the cap, which would lead you to believe the cap was slightly above 3500.Today however, I couldnt repeat the test results. With the exact same poison and INT, the exact same mob and exact same Dispatch, the damage was now 565, where it was 650 before. This time around Dispatch only came about halfway to the cap, slightly above, which leads us to believe the cap is now around 6k..?What gives? Something I overlooked, something to do with being level 70 this time around? Or something has changed? My head is a mess...I also tested against some grey x 2 epics in Rivervale, and it seemed they had ever so slightly higher cap than heroics of the same level, just like raising level means slightly higher cap. So I would guess 70+ x 4 epics could have something like 7k mitigation? Rough estimate, lots of speculation, and did I mention my head hurts...<div></div>

[ag]

That does match up with what I've been seeing on T7 content with respect to debuff caps.Specifically, alone I can't reach the cap, even with Dispatch and Devitalize, on heroic content. I've stacked Warding Ebb, Dispatch, Devitalize, and Secure (for cold debuff) and have seen increased numbers each time.However, we didn't collect enough data from enough wizards to normalize the results, so there was no point in making any claims. Interesting, though.

[verydanger]

For anyone having a hard time believing the dps numbers posted in this thread, have you taken grouping with a troubadour into consideration? I guess the guardian single target hate decrease buff works too, if one was to be found outside MT group.You also have to consider what capped DPS and haste can do with the right weapon and AA lines (Double attacks with 2H wurmslayer anyone?). I think about 1500 dps can be had from just autoattack, excluding procs... <div></div>

[ag]

1500 from auto-attack would be ludicrous for anyone.But yes, certain classes and combinations of classes permit DPS values that are two, three, four or five times higher than average.However, that's not always a good thing.For example..In raids, i'm often put in a group with a paladin who has amends on me, to prevent me from getting aggro.Unfortunately, the sheer volume of hate transfer from me to him puts him above the MT -every single time-. Very definitely not a good thing, and it was affecting the entire raid force.So, I no longer get Amends on raids. I have to deal with aggro on my own, which means breaking 800DPS = I am the focus. If lie-low is down, then I must FD or risk wiping the raid.This is fine with me, as my guild is most certainly casual with respect to raiding. We don't particularly care if we kill everything or not, or even quickly , or not. It's more of a social experience on a weekly basis, rather than a military experience on a daily basis.Just a difference in choice of playstyle.However, as always, history has proven out that making <i>claims</i> that you can sustain 2000 DPS is extremely unwise. It doesn't matter what data SOE has access to, what reality is, or what crap people are making up, drawing attention to your class has caused the nerf bat to be swung at it. Beware.

[Aral]

<P>That's the way it was in T6 as well chix, as in - debuff amount required to reach cap modified by two things: mob level and encounter "difficulty" (solo, heroic, epic).   Since none of these mobs actually have mitigation, it means the negative debuff "limit" is set by some modifier.  I have a hunch about what this mod is, but I need some time to test first. </P> <P>You can still reach the cap, I've seen this experimenting with assassin pal to try for his HH in raids - it requires devit, dispatch, dirge's clara's, cleric.  Without dispatch, but with a swash, doll, everyone (no Sk with us) pitching in we're very close to cap on x4s.   I am dying to test this more precisely (22 more days of work til summer...)  </P> <P>This is a good thing, as it gives more room for everyone's abilities to contribute.  If people really want to think devit+dispatch "doubles raid dps" let them enjoy the fantasy.  </P>

[Ishbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aralys wrote:<BR> <P>This is a good thing, as it gives more room for everyone's abilities to contribute.  If people really want to think devit+dispatch "doubles raid dps" let them enjoy the fantasy.  </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I have several parses of proof that we ran for the sole purpose of finding out just how much the brigand debuffs help.  It was sligly less than double the raid's dps.  Ask tangarth, I am sure he wasnt happy about me having him drop raid.<BR>

[verydanger]

<div><blockquote><hr>agra wrote:1500 from auto-attack would be ludicrous for anyone.<hr></blockquote>Aww come on Agra, 'ludicrous'? :p OK, bear with me:Anyone can verify that with 510 STR, a brigand will hit 2.8333 times harder than the listed damage of a weapon. Not talking about the damage rating, but the damage that is listed.Ok, so we have a brigand using the 2H Wurmslayer together with 4-4-4-8 WIS and 4-4-4-8 STR.The Wurmslayers listed damage is 78-235, with a delay of 3.0 seconds. That is ((78 + 235) x 2.833) / (2 x 3.0) DPS, without any modifiers at all. Do the math and you get 148 DPS.Now add the doubleattacks. This gives you 1.72 x 148 = 254 DPS.Now, add 100% haste and 100% DPS buffs. This equals four times the original damage, 4 x 254 = 1016 DPS.Then whack loose on a fully debuffed mob. 50% damage increase gives 1.5 x 1016 = 1524 DPS.I'm not gonna go into criticals as my method for calculating that could be a bit controversial (see Rokjin's post about how criticals work), but I guess everyone can agree they will only raise the DPS even higher.Of course, this math may be flawed, and I trust I'll be corrected if it is.</div>

[verydanger]

<div></div>Aralys, the tests I mention were repeated on several occasions back in the T6 days and also verified by others. Like I said in my post, unless I've overlooked something in my tests today, something has definitely changed since then. The cap for 46^ Prowlers was about 3.8k back then, for a long time, this I am very certain of. Today the exact same test shows the cap for the same mob is about 6k. And yes its true that the cap scales with level and con of encounter (solo, heroic, epic), but not by drastic amounts in any way - at least thats what my testing showed back then, as it did today. But yes, my original statement in this thread about brigand debuffs being overhyped seems to have been a bit off - well ok, more than a bit. Make no mistake though, I am not admitting my calculations were way off - I'm merely a victim off unannounced changes to the debuff caps!<div></div><p>Message Edited by verydanger on <span class=date_text>05-31-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:46 AM</span>

[ag]

And you wonder why Wurmslayer isn't going to be usable with double attacks anymore? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I'll grant you it's not ludicrous today, in that it's possible, but... after LU24, back to ludicrous. Hopefully. Then hopefully SOE can move on to the next poor losers of the month, with respect to nerfage.

[Aral]

<DIV>Chix - I wasn't commenting on whether that mob or level/rank has changed in it's cap, but rather that the amount required to reach cap always increased as level/difficulty increased.  Jura'Nata at 60 required more debuffing to reach the 50% cap than a heroic in PoF, for example.  From what you're describing, it sounds as if they've flattened out that curve  - resulting in a relatively smaller effect per point of debuff on solo, heroic, and lower level mobs. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ishbu, yes you've already described the fights you are using to compare.  You are still ignoring the confounding variables in your raid force, and using an orange con epic which amplifies SoE's already streakier-than-true-random pseudo RNG.  You are still using a sample size of 2 or 3.  I know you really believe this to be true, just like people who take Airborne really believe it's helping them get over a cold more quickly.  It's just not true though, and this can be demonstrated by removing the confounding variables in your raid, and minimizing the extreme variance you introduced by using Tarinax as the testbed for a tiny number of samples.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the best of all possible scenarios, a brigand can improve your DPS by 50%, and this is only if they are able to reach the cap _alone_ which we are not on top tier mobs, not even for 13 seconds.  I know talking it up won't change your mind, which is why I'm chomping at the bit to get some testing time (aka school year finished) to prove this with statistically valid tests.  If you want to do this for yourself, pick a set of meaty triple ups that spawn all at the same level, mentor down if you need on a lower mob (so brig can easily tank them for a long duration), have brigand apply rake and dispatch, then you fire off your most reliable nuke (smaller  the damage range the better) and record the damage.  Use the same spell every time and no other debuffs, no poisons, dolls etc. Repeat this at bare minimum 40 times, preferably more.  Find the mean damage for this sample.  Now repeat for another 40+ trials, with no brigand debuffs.  More than brig taunts may be needed to keep it off you this time, we don't want any other confounding variables to enter in, so the brig should not be touching the mob, except to taunt.  Record all damages, and find the mean.  Then run a significance  test for 2 means (T-test) to check your margin of error and set up a confidence interval, to see if the test is valid, or if you need more trials (ie if the variation you saw between the two means could have been due to random sampling error).  I will eat my hooluk hat if mean of sample 1 divided by mean of sample 2  is significantly greater than 1.5.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To test whether brigand _mitigation_ debuffs have any effect whatsoever on your rate of full resists on mobs - which is a separate factor and needs to be tested on its own - you need to run a similar comparison, but comparing the two proportions: Try to mentor down so that your "true" rate of full resists would be high - ie the mob is orange or at least 4 levels yellow, this will help you require fewer trials per sample to be valid.  This time, cast the same spell over and over under the two treatments: A: mob of level xx with no brigand mitigation debuffs on, and B: mob of level xx with either just rake on (easier test, not waiting on dispatch) or rake + dispatch (slower, only will get 2-3 casts per dispatch then wait a minute).  Choose which you want to test, then run a metric <A href="mailto:!@#$ton" target=_blank>!@#$ton</A> of trials for each sample.  Calculate total full resists divided by total casts for each sample.  Next run a 2-proportion Z-test to see if the results are significant, or whether they fail to reject the null.  Null hypothesis: no difference in resist proportion.  Your hypothesis: proportion of resists significantly lower in the brigand debuff sample. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hope that helps.  Your observations on tarinax are anecodotal to the extreme, and your raid is packed with confounding variables.  In other words: the probability that you could see the kind of variation in results you saw due simply to random sampling variation is very, VERY high, and thus not even close to significant.  Run these tests if you want to find out the truth.  I'll do it myself soon enough, because I want my own conclusive proof to show - but run them yourself if you can't wait to find out.  For now, back to grading for me. </DIV>

[Ishbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aralys wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ishbu, yes you've already described the fights you are using to compare.  You are still ignoring the confounding variables in your raid force, and using an orange con epic which amplifies SoE's already streakier-than-true-random pseudo RNG.  You are still using a sample size of 2 or 3.  I know you really believe this to be true, just like people who take Airborne really believe it's helping them get over a cold more quickly.  It's just not true though, and this can be demonstrated by removing the confounding variables in your raid, and minimizing the extreme variance you introduced by using Tarinax as the testbed for a tiny number of samples.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Tarinax is the only mob you can test this on.  Why? Because he's the only t7 orange con mob that you can try more than once every 5 days.  There are always going to be a few variables that are literally impossible to control.  The fact is a brigand makes such a clear cut difference on an orange con raid mob it is ridiculous.  Do I have 1000 parses to show it?  No, but then again when I see such an obvious pattern I dont need to.  </P> <P>For the record the overall sample size is several times larger than 2 or 3.  There was one time I made tangarth sit out, there were other times when he was not on.  I took what I learned and saw in those parses and what was in the parses where I had a fixed raid with and without a brigand and made logical conclusions.  That is a fact.  </P> <P>As for mobs that con yellow?  Nobody has trouble hitting yellow cons in a raid at all.  Every other class that can debuff does just fine against yellow cons.  That doesnt change my point that against orange con mobs there should be another class with debuff abilities similar to what a brigand has.</P> <P>You honestly wouldnt know what its like without a brigand because you yourself are one.  Name a raid your on when your not present? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P> <P>EDIT - your tests will do no good at all.  Your tests are to be performed on heroic mobs.  Heroic mobs are nothing compared to a raid mob.  They are two different worlds, two different playstyles.  An orange con heroic mob is no problem for me (or at least werent in t6, are there any in t7?).  An orange con epic is a nightmare trying to land spells.  There is an obvious difference in innate resistances, mitigations, caps, etc in heroic vs epic.</P><p>Message Edited by Ishboozor on <span class=date_text>05-31-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:22 PM</span>

[kyth]

    i think the debuff cap was raised recently.  I was doing 1154dmg with Grandmaster's Caustic Poison.  Now with around the same int and raid setup i was getting 1256dmg.  Buts yes, they  did raise the "Normal" cap for mitigation debuffs.  Dispatch still works like an over cap though for 13seconds x number of brigands on the raid.  Funny how we recruited 1 brigand then 2 old players come back and play brigands.  Now we raid with 3-4 brigands, and that is how you trivialize any encounter!<div></div>

[Damari]

<DIV>well well well, what an interesting thread.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How dare brigands have an ability that makes them useful.  Quickly, lets do what ishbu wants and give this class defining ability to another class.  no no no, not a swashy, that would make to much sense, lets give it to a ranger. yeah, good idea.  Give it to a ranger who can sit outside AoE, still be T1 dps and now enjoy utilizing the much coverted 'brigand' debuff.  Oh dear, now we have given it to the rangers, lets get rid of the brigands, they cant range attack, they cant hate transfer, they cant be used for any method of pulling and their places can be better used, whoo hoo, what a brain stormer.  so your fighting Oj raid mobs and having a brigand allows you to actually hit it. OMG thats genius.  You mean you'd like to have a brigand there so it makes your job easier? wow amazing stuff. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>give you a clue, its what our class is designed to do and its why we are there.  You as a player choose your class, play it and stop looking over the fence screaming for skills you have no entitlements to.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And as for auto-attack dps being so high. Inquis + berserker + troub = any dps class can do very high dps including fighter types.  You guys make me laugh thinking your alone in this bonanza of dps.</DIV>

[Ishbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Damari wrote:<BR> <DIV>well well well, what an interesting thread.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How dare brigands have an ability that makes them useful.  Quickly, lets do what ishbu wants and give this class defining ability to another class.  no no no, not a swashy, that would make to much sense, lets give it to a ranger. yeah, good idea.  Give it to a ranger who can sit outside AoE, still be T1 dps and now enjoy utilizing the much coverted 'brigand' debuff.  Oh dear, now we have given it to the rangers, lets get rid of the brigands, they cant range attack, they cant hate transfer, they cant be used for any method of pulling and their places can be better used, whoo hoo, what a brain stormer.  so your fighting Oj raid mobs and having a brigand allows you to actually hit it. OMG thats genius.  You mean you'd like to have a brigand there so it makes your job easier? wow amazing stuff.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>give you a clue, its what our class is designed to do and its why we are there.  You as a player choose your class, play it and stop looking over the fence screaming for skills you have no entitlements to.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Dude get a clue.  First off, if you as a brigand arent out dpsing a ranger, you are a bad player, period.  Rangers suck, wich is why I suggested them.  If you cant out dps rangers you dont know how to play your class and there is no arguement against that, your just bad.</P> <P>Second, I dont play a ranger.  I play a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing mage and no way am I suggesting I should get this ability.<BR></P>

[kyth]

    hah.<div></div>

[Carna]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ishboozor wrote: <P>Dude get a clue.  First off, if you as a brigand arent out dpsing a ranger, you are a bad player, period.  Rangers suck, wich is why I suggested them.  If you cant out dps rangers you dont know how to play your class and there is no arguement against that, your just bad.</P> <P>Second, I dont play a ranger.  I play a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing mage and no way am I suggesting I should get this ability.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well unlike yourself I play both a Brigand (62) and a Ranger (52) and you're talking out your [Removed for Content].

[Snarks]

hes clearly speaking from a raiding perspective, and because at a certain point you must turn to raiding to reach the full potential of your character, its a valid point for anyone <div></div>

[Carna]

<P>The thing is nobody notices the Rogue that is parsing halfway down the list. People do notice the Ranger who isn't at the top of the list and take for granted those Rangers that are. There are well played and badly played Rangers and Rogues. People notice the badly played Rangers far more, and badly played Rogues can go largely unoticed.</P> <P>Yes I think Rangers need to be doing a bit more damage especially on raids where a couple of their key skills are outright broken. No I don't think Rangers suck, and neither do those Rangers that are getting to the top of the lists on their guild raids. What Rangers need is SoA beefed up.</P> <P>Rangers are Predators. The point of comparison is between Rangers and Assassins. The idea of turning them into ranged Rogues is half-baked.</P>

[sociobiologi]

<P>Kythik wrote:</P> <P>"Now we raid with 3-4 brigands, and that is how you trivialize any encounter!"<BR></P> <P>I write:</P> <P>"First of all the statement is wrong. Second and most importantly it is a perfect example of nerfcrier food."</P> <P> </P> <P>Common guys, be good briggs and place ducktape over mouth, or more properly keyboard. I thought we were the only "wise class", at least tactically on boards. </P> <P> </P> <P>As for DPS</P> <P>Necro > Conj > Wizard > Warlock > Assassin > Ranger > Zerker > Bruiser > Swash > Brigs etc.......................... </P> <P> </P>

[verydanger]

<div><blockquote><hr>sociobiologist wrote:<div></div>"First of all the statement is wrong. Second and most importantly it is a perfect example of nerfcrier food." <p> Common guys, be good briggs and place ducktape over mouth, or more properly keyboard. I thought we were the only "wise class", at least tactically on boards. </p> <hr><p></p><p></p></blockquote>And I say, do you really think a few loudmouths on a forum are given some kind of deciding power by a company like the developers of this game? Just me that finds that a wee bit naive, not to mention paranoid?</div>

[sociobiologi]

<P>Well I consider it not being naive.</P> <P>I have seen nerfcrying lead to nerfage time and time again. In EQ, EQ2, AO, AC, COH etc. Nerfcrying stems from boasting or observations of other classes doing too good leading to jelousy. </P> <P>The logic is: Boasting leads to nerfcrying leading to the magnifying glass being held over mentioned mechanics leading to "adjustment" aka nerfage.</P> <P> </P>

[Ishbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Carnagh wrote:<BR> <P>The thing is nobody notices the Rogue that is parsing halfway down the list. People do notice the Ranger who isn't at the top of the list and take for granted those Rangers that are. There are well played and badly played Rangers and Rogues. People notice the badly played Rangers far more, and badly played Rogues can go largely unoticed.</P> <P>Yes I think Rangers need to be doing a bit more damage especially on raids where a couple of their key skills are outright broken. No I don't think Rangers suck, and neither do those Rangers that are getting to the top of the lists on their guild raids. What Rangers need is SoA beefed up.</P> <P>Rangers are Predators. The point of comparison is between Rangers and Assassins. The idea of turning them into ranged Rogues is half-baked.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Correction, I notice the rogues halfway down the list who are slacking.  If the rogue is only in the middle of the raid for dps, they suck and have no place on a raid with my guild.</P> <P>Lets put it this way, if you take an equally geared brigand, and an equally geared ranger, both of comparative skill level, the brigand will out dps the ranger, period.</P> <P>The rangers who get on top of their guilds parses are good players in guilds with people who are not nearly as good as them.  Find the highest parsing ranger world wide, throw him in our raid and he will not stand a chance at cracking the top 5, even with a great group set up.  </P> <P>Im all for giving rangers more dps to put them where they should be in terms of the dps tiers, but then I will just have to find another class that would be appropriate to have debuffs around the similar levels as brigands.  Swashbucklers are the obvious answer but as krythik pointed out they are the more offensively based debuffers.  Rangers just seemed like a good choice because right now they are lower dps and much much lower debuffing/utility than rogues are.  No matter what though, based on SOE's idea that at LEAST two classes can fill any roll in this game, some other class needs to have at least one of the big debuffs that brigands get.  Shaman do the dps debuff better than a swashbuckler, and Im not even asking for anyone to do it better than a brigand, just someone to do it comparabley.</P>

[sociobiologi]

<DIV>Stop the god [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] jelousy!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Giving classes more of the same abilities turns the game dull. </DIV>

[Ishbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sociobiologist wrote:<BR> <DIV>Stop the god [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] jelousy!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Giving classes more of the same abilities turns the game dull. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Stop being ignorant to the obviously monoply brigands have!  </P> <P>The senior producer of the game in a recent dev interview even said certain things arent balanced in ways that would be good for all players because it would create too big of a gap between people that have and dont have an enchanter.  That envelops two classes.  Brigands are ONE class.  It clearly wasnt intended for just one class to have the massive difference making ability against any orange con epic that they currently posses.  </P> <P>Your outcry sounds like a defensive reaction against a nerf.  I am not suggesting you get nerfed but I am saying that you shouldnt have a monoply on this.  Any real raider will tell you what a huge difference a brigand makes in these encounters.  You would have to be blind not to see it.  No one class should ever make up to a 50% difference, period.  There needs to be at least one other class with similar abilities, not a combination of 5+ classes that can do similar things once you add them all together.  It holds true for all other classes in game, including your counterpart the swashbuckler, what makes brigands the exception?</P>

[verydanger]

<div><blockquote><hr>sociobiologist wrote:<div></div> <p>Well I consider it not being naive.</p> <p>I have seen nerfcrying lead to nerfage time and time again. In EQ, EQ2, AO, AC, COH etc. Nerfcrying stems from boasting or observations of other classes doing too good leading to jelousy. </p> <p>The logic is: Boasting leads to nerfcrying leading to the magnifying glass being held over mentioned mechanics leading to "adjustment" aka nerfage.</p> <hr></blockquote>Well if this 'adjustment' was warranted, then what happened was just healthy for the game no? I dont think anyone has a problem with fixes and balancing that they can agree make sense, unless you are the kind of person that gets a kick from exploiting stuff.What leads to these discussions I feel is people thinking that 'nerfcrying' leads to UNWARRANTED nerfs. And thats when I say, people can cry all they want, the game has not  and is not going to be changed unless the developers themselves feel it should. I give the developers that much credit. If for no other reason, because it would be pretty poor business practice to change a product based on what a VERY small percentage of its consumers feel. I bet some of the the most frequent posters on this boards alone have a higher postcount than 90% of the playerbase alltogether...</div>

[Montaigu]

<DIV>Ish...........You sure you arent a ranger?  Looks like fish, smells like fish.................must be fish!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You really sound like a ranger.............and a disgruntled one at that.  How else are we to explain this CRUSADE on your on behalf of rangers every where?  Damd, I guess your just such a nice guy.  Always looking out for the lil guys, the ones that cant defend, speak for themselves.  How noble of you!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So.....by your own statement, "Correction, I notice the rogues halfway down the list who are slacking.  If the rogue is only in the middle of the raid for dps, they suck and have no place on a raid with my guild", you are your own worst enemy!  So only the rogue in your guild are allowed to parse in the top 5?  And if they dont they get kicked out?  No other classes parse in the top 5!  Do you think that maybe it is because your made it that way?  You booted all the half [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] Rogues out of your guild and now you are left with only the elite ones, who have to compete with all the half [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] people you didnt boot out, cause you seem to have some kind of flaming hard on for Brigands.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That maybe all your Brigands are using an exploit that is temporarily allowing them to DPS higher?  That maybe just maybe, your oh so elite other DPS classes suck at playing there character.   I monitior the Parser like a hawk.  And I can tell you right off the back, that the Brigand in my guild is practically never in the Top 10!  In fact, i have never seen this Brigand DPS higher than 721!  Do I think that is because Brigands suck?  NO!  Thou I can certainly tell you that many people in the guild think they are just a Debuff Class and not DPS.  Thats not what I think thou.  I think that when people dont parse high on a continual basis it is usually for one of two reason.  1) they actually dont know how to play their class.....or 2) they are too busy chatting and doing multiple other things, instead of focusing on the raid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Secondly, there is no such thing as an equally geared Ranger and Brigand.  And I say this since your guild according to your own words is so ELITE, that it kicks people out if they are slacking in anyway what so ever, then I must assume that your Brigands are all geared top of the line............meaning that they are all using a the Wurmslayer as a 1 Hander!  Hence they are not on par with an equally geared Ranger because your Brigands are using an EXPLOIT to achieve DPS that they were never intended to achieve.  With that in mind, I am moving with a motion to have all the Brigands in Ish's Elite guild suspended for whatever time period SOE sees fit.  Additionally, Ishboozer's account should also be suspended because he is a leader in the guild, who knew his people where using an exploit for the good of the guild.  As a leader, he should have known better.  And yes, using a 2 Hand weapon as a 1Hander can be considered an exploit.  Taking advantage of a faulty game mechanic.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ranger should never get debuffs.  Only in your crack piped mind does that sound reasonable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lastly, if anyone is curious of these boasters stated DPS numbers.  Which I find BS myself.  Dont request log files from them.  How do we know the logs are being manipulated (retyped)?  Just find out what server they are on, start a character, you dont even have to level it up much, and go parse their fight yourself.  Then you will know without a doubt what they parse at.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[ag]

Ishboozer,We don't have a monopoly on mitigation debuffs, either physical or magical. Many many many other classes have them. And they're very very very good.In this genre, someone has to be the best at something. If another class had the best of something (oh wait, they all DO) I would be cheering them on, not tearing them down. I'm happy when someone has their day in the sun. It's fun for them.

[Ishbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> agra wrote:<BR>Ishboozer,<BR><BR>We don't have a monopoly on mitigation debuffs, either physical or magical. Many many many other classes have them. And they're very very very good.<BR><BR>In this genre, someone has to be the best at something. If another class had the best of something (oh wait, they all DO) I would be cheering them on, not tearing them down. I'm happy when someone has their day in the sun. It's fun for them.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Um....nobody has even remotely close to the ability to debuff physical or all magical like a brigand.  Not even close.</P> <P>What exactly are rangers and swashbucklers the best at?</P> <P>Again, I am not saying you still cant be the best at debuffing EVERYTHING.  But another class needs comparable levels.  Why are you so against some class getting a big physcail debuff that is 5-10% worse than yours and another class getting a magical debuff that is again 5-10% worse?  You would still be the best, you would lose none of your abilities, but it woudl make it so another class can fill the brigand roll if need be.  Every other class in game has another class that can fill their roll, brigands should not be the exception.</P>

[ag]

<blockquote><hr>Ishboozor wrote:Um....nobody has even remotely close to the ability to debuff physical or all magical like a brigand.  Not even close.<hr></blockquote>Your information is inaccurate. If you can't be bothered to examine the abilities of other classes, I'm sure not going to do it for you, but rest assured, there are many, and they are in fact well within reasonably close to what a Brigand can do.Furthermore, Grandmasters Warding Ebb (the poison) gives all rogues and predators ~900 debuff to all magical mitigation. (all non-physical resists).Templars, Coercers, Defilers, and Guardians all have physical and/or magical (non-physical) mitigation debuffs.It may be worth your time to actually go right now and look at those abilities in game via Linky. I think you'll be surprised at how the numbers really stack up with respect to everyone else vs. Brigands on the debuff front.Specifically, you may want to define what you mean by "Not even close". Does that mean half as effective? So are you saying that if a Brigand could debuff a particular mitigation by 1000, if someone else could only do it by 500, that's not even close? Or do you mean 25%? or 10%? At what point numerically does "not even close" come into play, in your opinion?Given the above information is accurate, if you're unwilling or unable or not inclined to go and do a numeric comparison of debuff values across all classes in an unbiased, unemotional, unenvious way... well, let's just see how this goes. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Ishbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Montaigu wrote:<BR> <DIV>Ish...........You sure you arent a ranger?  Looks like fish, smells like fish.................must be fish!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You really sound like a ranger.............and a disgruntled one at that.  How else are we to explain this CRUSADE on your on behalf of rangers every where?  Damd, I guess your just such a nice guy.  Always looking out for the lil guys, the ones that cant defend, speak for themselves.  How noble of you!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So.....by your own statement, "Correction, I notice the rogues halfway down the list who are slacking.  If the rogue is only in the middle of the raid for dps, they suck and have no place on a raid with my guild", you are your own worst enemy!  So only the rogue in your guild are allowed to parse in the top 5?  And if they dont they get kicked out?  No other classes parse in the top 5!  Do you think that maybe it is because your made it that way?  You booted all the half [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] Rogues out of your guild and now you are left with only the elite ones, who have to compete with all the half [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] people you didnt boot out, cause you seem to have some kind of flaming hard on for Brigands.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That maybe all your Brigands are using an exploit that is temporarily allowing them to DPS higher?  That maybe just maybe, your oh so elite other DPS classes suck at playing there character.   I monitior the Parser like a hawk.  And I can tell you right off the back, that the Brigand in my guild is practically never in the Top 10!  In fact, i have never seen this Brigand DPS higher than 721!  Do I think that is because Brigands suck?  NO!  Thou I can certainly tell you that many people in the guild think they are just a Debuff Class and not DPS.  Thats not what I think thou.  I think that when people dont parse high on a continual basis it is usually for one of two reason.  1) they actually dont know how to play their class.....or 2) they are too busy chatting and doing multiple other things, instead of focusing on the raid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Secondly, there is no such thing as an equally geared Ranger and Brigand.  And I say this since your guild according to your own words is so ELITE, that it kicks people out if they are slacking in anyway what so ever, then I must assume that your Brigands are all geared top of the line............meaning that they are all using a the Wurmslayer as a 1 Hander!  Hence they are not on par with an equally geared Ranger because your Brigands are using an EXPLOIT to achieve DPS that they were never intended to achieve.  With that in mind, I am moving with a motion to have all the Brigands in Ish's Elite guild suspended for whatever time period SOE sees fit.  Additionally, Ishboozer's account should also be suspended because he is a leader in the guild, who knew his people where using an exploit for the good of the guild.  As a leader, he should have known better.  And yes, using a 2 Hand weapon as a 1Hander can be considered an exploit.  Taking advantage of a faulty game mechanic.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ranger should never get debuffs.  Only in your crack piped mind does that sound reasonable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lastly, if anyone is curious of these boasters stated DPS numbers.  Which I find BS myself.  Dont request log files from them.  How do we know the logs are being manipulated (retyped)?  Just find out what server they are on, start a character, you dont even have to level it up much, and go parse their fight yourself.  Then you will know without a doubt what they parse at.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I am not sure why I am replying to you.  It is quite evident you A) do not know who I am, B) do not know who my guild is, and C) do not know about high end raiding.  Thus making your whole post fairly irrelavent since it is directly addressed to me.</P> <P>Yes, we are an elitiest guild.  We dont even have enough people to field a full raid force(and 2 people are recruits who just got recruited the other day), now name a mob  that anyone anywhere can kill that we cant.  Oh wait, there are none.  I have no room for slack [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] players.  We know what the different classes are capable of and we do not accept anyone to member status unless they are at or near the very top of the bar. </P> <P>Our brigand posts quite often.  He has posted on this thread.  You know what?  If he would parse 720 like your brigand he would probably cry.  That is [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing terrible.  Period.  Ask krythik here if he would be happy parsing 720, I am sure he would be ashamed if that was his average parse, let alone his high!</P> <P>As for the wumslayer thing, Im thinking, I am not sure there is a single person in my guild who uses it as described above.  Tangarth is the only scout that possibly could that has one and last I checked he was duel weilding.  Either way, yeah Im going to be suspended because maybe someone in my guild at some point used it as a 1hander, lol.  You would think if they were actually suspending people who did that (I highly doubt they ever would, its not that big of a deal at all)  they would go after the hundreds of people doing it instead of the guild leader of maybe one person.  Your knowledge of how things work astounds all.</P> <P>Did you know rangers actually already have some debuffs, not to mention poisons?  Somehow I dont think you did since you said, and I quote "rangers should never get debuffs".  I am sure the ranger community would love to know that you think in relation to having absoutely terrible utility and very low dps for a t1 dps class, that they should also have all their debuffs stripped from them. </P> <P>About your parse question, there are a few people on our server who run around and parse us.  They can tell you these numbers are not made up.  Any high end guild can tell you they are not made up.  Just because your guilded with [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ty people who can only break 700 dps at best doeant mean we all are.</P> <P>And wow, I cant beleive you seriously are dumb enough to still think I am a ranger.  You do realize that big flashing signature at the end of everyone of my posts links to my eq2player profile, wich also shows my alts.  No rangers there.</P> <P>Its funny, I know me and krythik dont agree on this issue at all, but I bet he would agree with me that you really have no [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing idea what your talking about.</P>

[Ishbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> agra wrote:<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Your information is inaccurate. If you can't be bothered to examine the abilities of other classes, I'm sure not going to do it for you, but rest assured, there are many, and they are in fact well within reasonably close to what a Brigand can do.<BR><BR>Furthermore, Grandmasters Warding Ebb (the poison) gives all rogues and predators ~900 debuff to all magical mitigation. (all non-physical resists).<BR><BR>Templars, Coercers, Defilers, and Guardians all have physical and/or magical (non-physical) mitigation debuffs.<BR><BR>It may be worth your time to actually go right now and look at those abilities in game via Linky. I think you'll be surprised at how the numbers really stack up with respect to everyone else vs. Brigands on the debuff front.<BR><BR>Specifically, you may want to define what you mean by "Not even close". Does that mean half as effective? So are you saying that if a Brigand could debuff a particular mitigation by 1000, if someone else could only do it by 500, that's not even close? Or do you mean 25%? or 10%? At what point numerically does "not even close" come into play, in your opinion?<BR><BR>Given the above information is accurate, if you're unwilling or unable or not inclined to go and do a numeric comparison of debuff values across all classes in an unbiased, unemotional, unenvious way... well, let's just see how this goes. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I am currently at work, but when I get home I will bring the exact numbers, obviously posting anything in the rough neighborhood is just going to result in extreme scrutiny by others. </P> <P>Ill say this though, poisons cant really count because the brigand can also use them.  It brings say an assassin 900 points closer, but the brigand can use it to gain that 900 points back. </P> <P>As for reasonably close, I would say it changes the higher the numbers get.  500 to 1000 is not reaosonably close because one is 2x as good as the other, but 1500 to 2000 is reasonable close imo. </P> <P>The thing is, there is NO class that can come close when you stack your skills together.  Especially when you make use of your double up feature.  Is stacking them always the best route since they do not last forever?  No, but it is possible and nobody else can do it.</P>

[Pins]

So, other people can try to stack as high as a brigand, sure. But the fact is, without a brigand you get nowhere near the cap. Even with everybody using their debuffs and then comparing with and without a brigand you will notice that the DPS increases a lot, even though people can stack to get as high as a brigand can solo. There's obviously something to do with how debuffs stack that is causing this issue, which could be the problem of why Brigand's are so powerful with their debuffs.Yah, brigands debuff a flat 2000 against all mitigation(2 timers, 60s recast, 72s duration, we all know this), and then can debuff a flat 3500 against all mitigations as well(1 timer, 60s recast, 13s duration). But what we don't know is how the debuffs stack, and whether they work like buffing a reist does in a linear path. I bet you take the best debuff on the mob, add a portion of the 2nd debuff, a smaller portion of the 3rd, and so on down the line. This is what is causing the problem. That being, because brigands get the best debuff, that 2k helps the most, and the 3.5k helps even more.Then again, just try fighting Tarniax several times without a brigand and you will see a HUGE difference, even if you have a Swashbuckler, Templar, Coercer, Dirge, Defiler all debuffing the mob's mitigations. We're talking getting Tarniax down to 40% with a raid of 21 with a Swashbuckler, vs. a raid of 22 killing Tarniax with 2 Brigands instead of 1 Swashbuckler. Don't believe it? Do the test yourself and drop brigands from the raid to see this difference.Oh, and Ishbu is a Conjuror, not a crappy Ranger.<p>Message Edited by Pinski on <span class=date_text>06-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:53 AM</span>

[ag]

Ishboozer,I look forward to the numbers.And I'll say this about the rest of the argument.Would you rather that poison did not exist? It makes Brigands position as "the" debuffer weaker, because it spreads that ability through four classes.ORYour position/viewpoint appears to be that it in some way overpowers brigands because it stacks with their abilities? Is this your viewpoint about every other effect of poison or potion (or power-regen shard, rez feather, any other class-defining ability/item) that happens to stack with an arbitrary classes abilities?For example, summoners can create power regen shards. However, Coercers also bring in-combat power regen to a group. Are Coercers in need of a nerf because they can use an item that bolsters one of their own abilities? Brigands use poisons that do the same. So, which is it?Another example is wizards debuffing cold then nuking with ice comet. Not exactly the same, but is this bad also, in your opinion? They're exceeding the maximum numeric value of their spells.How about necromancers (and/or defilers, i believe) debuffing disease and/or poison and then nuking or DoT'ing their target? What about using a hex doll that decreases these mitigations (which anyone can use) and then hitting for more damage?Should then, all hex dolls be removed as well? They're permitting a class that has an ability to amplify that ability with something outside-the-box, so to speak.I guess I just don't see how you can be down so hard on Brigands about this ability to debuff when everyone can do it, to a greater or lesser degree.Giving Brigand level debuffs to everyone would be ludicrous. Taking them away from Brigands would hurt Brigands and everyone else that benefits from them. The ability to debuff mitigations exists for everyone in the form of hex dolls already, and through inherent combat arts or spells for a wide variety of classes.I don't want to see debuffs or damage or healing removed from everyone else. Of those three, all other classes in the game do damage or healing better than Brigands. Good for them. This appears to all be working as intended, no?

[Ishbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> agra wrote:<BR>Ishboozer,<BR><BR>I look forward to the numbers.<BR><BR>And I'll say this about the rest of the argument.<BR><BR>Would you rather that poison did not exist? It makes Brigands position as "the" debuffer weaker, because it spreads that ability through four classes.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>No, Im just saying that any poison that can add to debuffing can also enhance the brigands own, so nobody gains an advantage on them using one.  What the poison adds pale in comparison to what you can already do through combat arts.<BR>

[ag]

900 vs 2000 ?From a Brigand perspective, giving four classes an ability that is 45% as good as our own weakens our role. (these numbers aren't exact, but close) I have, in fact, had several people refer to Warding Ebb as "Brigand-in-a-bottle". A bit demeaning, but I do not want this poison removed from the game. It enhances what 4 classes bring to a group.From your perspective, giving four classes an ability that is 45% as good as what a Brigand can do "can also enhance the brigands <i>own*</i>" (* - <i>debuffing ability, I presume is what you meant</i>)Interesting. Both perspectives appear true. However, I wouldn't use the second perspective as an argument to nerf Brigands, but you might?<p>Message Edited by agra on <span class=date_text>06-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:15 AM</span>

[Ishbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> agra wrote:<BR>900 vs 2000 ?<BR><BR>From a Brigand perspective, giving four classes an ability that is 45% as good as our own weakens our role. (these numbers aren't exact, but close) I have, in fact, had several people refer to Warding Ebb as "Brigand-in-a-bottle". A bit demeaning, but I do not want this poison removed from the game. It enhances what 4 classes bring to a group.<BR><BR>From your perspective, giving four classes an ability that is 45% as good as what a Brigand can do "can also enhance the brigands <I>own*</I>" (* - <I>debuffing ability, I presume is what you meant</I>)<BR><BR>Interesting. Both perspectives appear true. However, I wouldn't use the second perspective as an argument to nerf Brigands, but you might? <P>Message Edited by agra on <SPAN class=date_text>06-01-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>09:15 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Your not adding the 900 to the brigand.  Its actually 900 vs 2900, net change, still 2000 in favor of the brigand.  If it is 45% of the brigands abilitiy, then it also increases the brigands ability by 45% resulting in no net change. </P> <P>And I dont know how many times I have to say this, I dont want you nerfed!  Giving some other class another ability of comprable effectivnes as your own doesnt change anything about you or your class.  How is that nerf to you in the slightest?  Is giving rangers a reason to be on a raid such a bad thing?  If a shaman got something would that be cause to kick a t2 class that does t1 dps and still has the best debuffs out of the raid?  Of course not.  All it does is reduce the reliance on one class, wich isnt supposed to be in game anyways.  You remain exactly the same as you are now, just some other class somewhere can now fill the debuffing roll if for example, they wanted to add another pedastal of sky type encounter. <BR></P>

[ag]

You may say you don't want us nerfed, but what I'm trying to explain is that giving someone else our abilities (or > 50% effectiveness of our abilities) will make us less desirable. Less desirable = nerfed.What you want (mitigation debuffs spread across other classes) is already in the game.All that's left to decide, agree or disagree on is if you believe the %'s are appropriate. That's an opinion debate, but I'm game.<p>Message Edited by agra on <span class=date_text>06-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:50 AM</span>

[Ishbu]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> agra wrote:<BR>You may say you don't want us nerfed, but what I'm trying to explain is that giving someone else our abilities (or > 50% effectiveness of our abilities) will make us less desirable. Less desirable = nerfed.<BR><BR>What you want (mitigation debuffs spread across other classes) is already in the game.<BR><BR>All that's left to decide, agree or disagree on is if you believe the %'s are appropriate. That's an opinion debate, but I'm game. <P>Message Edited by agra on <SPAN class=date_text>06-01-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:50 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>As posted earlier in this thread it takes 5 classes added together to equal a brigand.  That is wrong.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hate to break it to you but you guys actually do need to be a little less required for orange con raid mobs.  Tarinax you basically NEED a brigand (I will not say its impossible without one, but its monumentally harder).   No other single class in any encounter is needed.  There are ALWAYS two different classes that can fill the roll.  The closes you come is the 3 princes encounter where you need a warrior, a crusader, and a brawler, but even then there are 2 of each of those.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Brigands still will have all their great debuffs, they will still be doing the dps they do.  You will still have a raid spot.  Its pretty stupid though when as krythik even said they raid with 4 brigands.  What classes are being left out because brigands are just better to have with?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When it comes down to orange con raid mobs, brigands have a monoply on the debuff department.  They are so much better and more important than any other class.  Against all other mobs they are just as good, but at the yellow con level it is not as vital.  I had hoped you guys were better than the wizard community who feels they should just hands down own other classes at everything, but I guess I was wrong.  Your the exact same, you feel nobody should come close to being able to debuff like you ever, not even your counterpart swashbucklers.  Oh and you should get ae avoidance so you can maintain debuffs better too, and double up to double the effectiveness of some of them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At least us summoners acknowledged the fact we were doing too much dps and just would like some utility for raids to make up for it.  You guys just want to be the hands down best though I guess.<BR></DIV>

[sociobiologi]

<div></div><b>So what if brigands have way bigger debuffs than others? -Warlocks have way bigger AOE's than anyone -Assassins have way bigger hits than anyone -Coercers will have charm monopoly etc You probably want Brigands "down to" tier 2 dps" (even though that is where we are), And you also want our superior debuff ability nerfed directly or indirectly by giving it to others (rangers of all classes?? they should be tier one dps) Our stuns (main ability) is almost totally removed next update Team invis and invis has no value any longer (and can be mimicked with ts items) You have thousands of posts (most of which are pure spam) and lead Dessolution, playing a caster. You admidt to being elitist and boast about your guild taking down any raid content done by anyone. You boot members who do not contribute 100%. Being such an elitist why are you wasting your energy trying to nerf brigands? Why not fill your uber guild with them so you can rock the world? I really do not like gamers with a grandiose sense of themselves. Elitism in a MMO who are you kidding?!</b><div></div><p>Message Edited by sociobiologist on <span class=date_text>06-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:04 AM</span>

[Ishbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sociobiologist wrote:<BR><B>So what if brigands have way bigger debuffs than others?<BR><BR>-Warlocks have way bigger AOE's than anyone<BR>-Assassins have way bigger hits than anyone<BR>-Coercers will have charm monopoly<BR>etc<BR><BR>You probably want Brigands "down to" tier 2 dps" (even though that is where we are),<BR>And you also want our superior debuff ability nerfed directly or indirectly by giving it to others (rangers of all classes?? they should be tier one dps)<BR><BR>Our stuns (main ability) is almost totally removed nest update<BR>Team invis and invis has no value any longer (and can be mimicked with ts items)<BR><BR>You have thousands of posts (most of which are pure spam) and lead Dessolution, playing a caster. You admidt to being elitist and boast about your guild taking down any raid content done by anyone. You boot members who do not contribute 100%. Being such an elitist why are you wasting your energy trying to nerf brigands? Why not fill your uber guild with them so you can rock the world?<BR><BR>I really do not like gamers with a grandiose sense of themselves. Elitism in a MMO who are you kidding?!</B> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Lol your almost as bad as that one other guy who thinks I am a ranger.</P> <P>First off, SEVERAL times I said I do not want to nerf brigands.  Is that really so hard for you to read or were you too busy using the stupid [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] bold type to notice?</P> <P>Warlocks have bigger ae's, but they play almost no roll as their ae dps is easily surpassed by several other classes and it does nothing to enhance the other 23 people.  Assassins hit hard, what else do assassins do?  They hit hard and they.....hit hard.  When was the last raid mob you charmed?  Oh wait, you cant.</P> <P>Um yeah brigands should be t2 dps.  Good brigands (I am definitly assuming you are not one) do dps on par with all the t1 dps classes.  Of that tier only assassins will regularly out dps them.  But I dont particularily think you should be nerfed dps wise.  The true players (not the people who rolled a brigand afte LU 13) didnt pick the class as a debuff class.  It was a dps class.  It is supposed to be t2 wich is mainly dps.  The utility classes are t3 and lower, not t2, but again, I am not even asking for any of your utility to be taken away.  Like you said, rangers should be t1 dps but they arent.  They are below brigands in dps, why do you feel you should have 10x the buffing power of them AND more dps?  Either way, rangers was just a suggestion, I personally dont care that much wich class gets an equivalent as long as its somebody. </P> <P>Stuns was a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing pointless topic too, everyone's stuns are being changed the same.</P> <P>Actually most of my posts are not spam.  I have about 300 spam posts, most of wich are from the last month.  But then again, I assume you take these posts as spam as it would not shock me to learn you dont know the definition of the word.  You do know Dessolution is a word you just made up by combining dissolution and dessolation right? </P> <P>The sad thing is, I am filling the guild with them.  We now have 2 on the roster.  In the perfectly balanced world you would want one of every class.  We only run with 23 people and 2 of them are brigands.  I certantly didnt want a second brigand but because of the ABSOLUTELY MASSIVE DIFFERENCE they and they alone make on orange con raid mobs I was forced to find one. </P> <P>You dont like gamers who play this game hardcore and do it well, I dont like gamers who feel they should be the best at everything because all it serves is to unbalance the game for everyone else. </P> <P>But anyways, you obviously missed the point where this had to deal with raids and orange con raid mobs in particular with your utter nonsense about stuns and charm.  Not to mention thinking your dps isnt capable of t1, because that just says your a bad player.</P>

[ag]

Isbhoozer,I'm sure you would agree that making sweeping changes to Brigands (or other classes, either negatively or positively) based soley on the ability to hit or not hit orange con raid mobs ONLY would be " a bad thing " ?Tuning a class based on a single class of encounter (which is arguably seen by less than 5% of the players game-wide, EVER) just... can't be a good idea.Maybe.. how about this, would you be pleased if all Brigand debuffs affected solo, heroic, and epic mobs with three different values?For example, on a solo mob, it would debuff 500 mitigation, 250 on Heroic, and 100 on Epic?Would that make the hate-on you've got going here go away? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Myrcul]

<DIV>What is amusing, as a Level 70 Brigand, casual player, is this Self Important, Pompous, Elitist twit from another class coming in here and telling us all what we know about our class is wrong, and that we should listen to him and take our medicine and be happy because in the 5% of the content of the Game he plays in, things don't work out well for him because he thinks our class is too powerful/necessary.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well guess what.  the other 95% of the game that's NOT Raid content, is working fine for the most part. Brigands aren't hugely desired, I have to work to get myself into pick-up groups sometimes (While all the while getting random /tells from Raiding focused guilds asking me to quit my guild and join theirs) because I'm not all that essential to the vast majority of the content in game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some folks find it nice to have me around, and the fights do go a tiny bit faster in groups because I am there, but without me, the fight takes an extra couple seconds.. nothing impactive, does not change their game experience at all, so why take a Brigand along if they think they can get something else that will work out better with what they already have, like a second healer, or a coercer so they don;t ever have to stop pulling to wait for power, etc. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SO.. Brigands have ONE use for Raids.   They are actually a desired class for one function in the game as a whole.  Dear God NO!!!! Nerf the hell out of our one ability that shines, or better, spread it out and give to a more populated class so you don;t have to bother with actually leveling Brigands and can instead just get some other more popular class our abilities and integrate them right away because they already have all the super fantabulous uber elite gear and sneer required to hang with your almighty azz.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yeah... right.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>M</DIV>

[Ishbu]

<P>I just want it made so that one class isnt more or less required for an encounter.  It has never been that way in this game and it should never be that way.  There should always be 2 classes that can fill the role and against orange con epics there is not.  </P> <P>If i realy wanted brigands nerfed I would start in about your dps and your utility combined.  But, I really dont want to see you nerfed and I dont realy personally think you doing t1 dps is out of line.  Anyone who rolled a brigand pre LU 13 did so for dps, they are a dps class and its stupid to say they shoudl do less dps than other dps classes because of a debuff.  Wizards can hit for 20k in one shot, they are unparralleled at burst dps and i think it would be nice if SOE realized there are different forms of dps like that.</P> <P>But I digress, really I just want any other class to be able to debuff similar to brigands for those encounters that are orange con epics.  All the epics so far in TFD on test are lvl 75 and orange.  Granted I dont know if they plan to make them as "tough" as tarinax or not but if they try and make them challenging, good luck without a brigand, and thats stupid, especailly considering a few are x2 raids.  To that guy that thinks im a ranger, im not, im a raid leader who would like not to have to structure my guild make up around one class when there are other classes out there (like rangers) that I refused to guild simply because they didnt bring anything to the table in the grand scheme of things.  The debuffs are absolutely needed in some situations and the brigand does dps so adding a second one of them is a clear winner over getting a first ranger.  Hell, if our swashbuckler quit today, I wouldnt replace them with another.  Thats what Im getting at here, is your class is so required over other classes that it is more beneficial to go with mutilples of it over any of other classes.  </P> <P>With their debuffs, you brigands will always have a place in a raid, I dont see how giving some other class a very comparable version will hurt that, especially if that class does less dps than you to begin with.</P>

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>I'll agree with you that rangers need a boost.  I believe they're lower because they don't have to sit in AoEs like assassins and swashies do but neither do we really.</P> <P>Swashies get something you're overlooking.  They debuff dps of the mob by a lot.  Almost as much as a shaman.  You need one to hit the dps mod cap along with 2 shamans.  Guard and 2 shamans doesn't hit it.</P>

[Carna]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> verydanger wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sociobiologist wrote:<BR> <BR>"First of all the statement is wrong. Second and most importantly it is a perfect example of nerfcrier food." <P><BR>Common guys, be good briggs and place ducktape over mouth, or more properly keyboard. I thought we were the only "wise class", at least tactically on boards.</P> <P> </P> <HR> <P></P> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>And I say, do you really think a few loudmouths on a forum are given some kind of deciding power by a company like the developers of this game? Just me that finds that a wee bit naive, not to mention paranoid?<BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>FoH isn't just another uber guild. It's not a matter of opinion really as to whether or not prevailing thought formed in FoH has impacted games, they simply do. Their former guild leader got picked up by Blizzard to work on design. The devs engage in dialogue on their notice board that they don't here. They mix with devs at meets and historically have been the point of origin for significant changes in both EQ1 and WoW.</P> <P>Be paranoid.</P> <P>As for Ish... We're bad players. Ish is a good player. We don't have a clue. Ish has it all figured out.... lets just agree on these points and stop feeding him as he's getting off on it now. You'll have spotted his posts about, and once he gets a bee in his bonnet he won't give up.</P> <P>As I've mentioned elsewhere the whole issue doesn't much matter to me. While I really enjoy my Brigand I group way more than I raid and for that reason I'm considering switching to Swashbuckler anyhow. One of the largest guilds on the server and I'm the only Brigand in it. I was in the largest guild on the server, and was the only Brigand in that one... go figure.... nerf away. Make everybody the same bland shade of grey. Anything special in this game gets eroded because it's just not fair to be better at something than other people.</P>

[ag]

Ishboozer,You're asking for a level of equality that (respectfully) would be harmful to Brigands.However, I'll entertain your suggestion for a moment, with a bit of history.In the past 7 years, more often than not, when placed with a choice of increasing the abilities of a class or decrease the abilities of a class, to solve a " very large issue ", SOE has chosen to decrease the abilities of a class.also...In the past 7 years, more often than not, when placed with a choice of increasing the abilities of many classes or decrease the abilities of many classes, to solve a " very large issue ", SOE has chosen to decrease the abilities many classes.You can go and read all the patch notes for EQ1 and EQ2 to verify this claim if you wish. Or you can call me a dirty liar, as you wish. But I believe the above is true.Given that..What I believe you are asking for: To make it so Brigands are not "required" (your opinion, not mine) on a small selection of orange con raid targets.What the result ideally would be: Some, one, or many debuff abilities of some, one or many classes would be <b>improved (or added)</b> to reduce your perceived reliance on a single class (Brigands)What would happen: Brigands debuffs would be <b>reduced</b>, to effectively raise everyone elses abilities.That's what history has taught me, and that's why your request is so "dangerous" to Brigands.

[Myrcul]

<DIV>So, you have performed these raids WITHOUT the brigand right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So if the raid is successful WITHOUT the Brigand, just a bit easier with them, then you don't NEED the Brigand with you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is no requirement to have a Brigand on a raid for it to be successful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Try one without healers.</DIV> <DIV>Try one without a good Tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>M</DIV>

[sociobiologi]

Ish is a troll, plain and simple. He just doesn't realize it himself. In his own mind he is spreading wisdom of both playing the game and how to balance it for the greater good. Chronically arrogant viewing himself as an enlightened individual his only input will be his own output. Let him circulate..... and suffocate in his own monologues.<div></div>

[Goonch]

socio stop posting and giving brigands a bad name.   your list of where brigands are in dps just shows how little you know what you're talking about... rogues are right behind summoners and assassins in dps with the rangers and sorcerers occasionally beating us...  and putting zerkers and brawlers ahead of us?  for shame.<p>Message Edited by Goonch on <span class=date_text>06-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:59 PM</span>

[Ishbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Myrculus wrote:<BR> <DIV>So, you have performed these raids WITHOUT the brigand right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So if the raid is successful WITHOUT the Brigand, just a bit easier with them, then you don't NEED the Brigand with you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is no requirement to have a Brigand on a raid for it to be successful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Try one without healers.</DIV> <DIV>Try one without a good Tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>M</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I have performed this raid without the brigand, I did not succeed through multiple attempts.  However, with a brigand it was a joke for my guild.  In the end the difference in duration of the fights with and without brigand was around 2 seconds (on average) with the mob on the absolute best try still having 40% hp left as opposed to 0 with the brigand.  Further more the mob's dps was over double without the brigand (i attributed this to other classes not getting their dps and slows on without the brigand) and the raid dps was just under double with the brigand as opposed to not.</P> <P>If you would bother reading you will notice I have been very careful to not say it is impossible without a brigand.  The devs do the same thing being very careful to say things such as the difference between having X class and not would be too great, not saying that by not having X class you will fail.  The difference between having a brigand and not on an orange con raid mob is so great, I cant even put it into numbers.</P> <P> </P> <P>BTW...</P> <P>There are 6 healing classes</P> <P>There are 6 tanking classes</P> <P>There is 1 brigand class.</P> <P> </P> <P>To that other guy who doesnt even warrant a new post to reply to him:  Yes I am a troll.  I very rarely play the game and I certantly do not have an understanding of what any classes do.  Like I said to you before, you are very clueless.  You would be much better off keeping your mouth shut and letting agra do the talking as he at least appears very well informed and intelligent, both things you lack.</P>

[Ishbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> agra wrote:<BR>Ishboozer,<BR><BR>You're asking for a level of equality that (respectfully) would be harmful to Brigands.<BR><BR>However, I'll entertain your suggestion for a moment, with a bit of history.<BR><BR>In the past 7 years, more often than not, when placed with a choice of increasing the abilities of a class or decrease the abilities of a class, to solve a " very large issue ", SOE has chosen to decrease the abilities of a class.<BR><BR>also...<BR><BR>In the past 7 years, more often than not, when placed with a choice of increasing the abilities of many classes or decrease the abilities of many classes, to solve a " very large issue ", SOE has chosen to decrease the abilities many classes.<BR><BR>You can go and read all the patch notes for EQ1 and EQ2 to verify this claim if you wish. Or you can call me a dirty liar, as you wish. But I believe the above is true.<BR><BR>Given that..<BR><BR>What I believe you are asking for: To make it so Brigands are not "required" (your opinion, not mine) on a small selection of orange con raid targets.<BR><BR>What the result ideally would be: Some, one, or many debuff abilities of some, one or many classes would be <B>improved (or added)</B> to reduce your perceived reliance on a single class (Brigands)<BR><BR>What would happen: Brigands debuffs would be <B>reduced</B>, to effectively raise everyone elses abilities.<BR><BR>That's what history has taught me, and that's why your request is so "dangerous" to Brigands.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>While I fully agree more often than not SOE will just nerf brigands, I really dont think that will be the case here.  In my discussions with "other people" I have been very very careful to continually point out how these debuffs are necessary and if nerfed or reduced in anyway, shape, or form would warrant a need to nerf the mobs as well.  </P> <P>Wich brings me back to my point that some other class should have similar (really you guys can still have the clear cut better overall debuffing ability) debuffs though.  </P> <P>Lets just take a hypothetical situation here using numbers that are easy to work with.</P> <P>Lets say you as a brigand can debuff mitigation vs phsycial for 2000.  Would it really be that terrible to see one of the swashbuckler abilites bumped up to 1700?  You can debuff magical by 2000, why cant a ranger instead of debuffing heat, debuff everything magical by 1500 instead of just the heat(i may be wrong here) they do now? </P> <P>I really dont see how that is so bad.  You bump up a few classes abilities, change a couple to include more things and brigands still do it all in one class and at a higher level, but not so high that it makes such a world of difference.</P> <P>If somehow SOE felt that lowering brigands is the solution to this problem, i will be right up there with you arguing how [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing stupid that is.</P>

[Myrcul]

<DIV>I don't see you championing anywhere then that Brigands should get 80% of a Swashbucklers AoE prowess, or 80% of their DPS debuffing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You're barely worth the effort of striking keys on a keyboard to reply to.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So sorry you're such a cruddy player you can't figure out how to kill a mob without a Brigand.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe thats uncalled for, but with the frequency you tell other people they are idiots and can't play their class, I figured it was appropriate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>M</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Ishbu]

<P>Im really not championing here for swashbucklers either, I prefer rangers.  But either way on average brigands and swashbucklers do the same dps.  So what your saying is that if swashbucklers can dps 80% as effectively as you can, you should be able to clearly out dps them?  Because any increase in brigand dps will but them clearly ahead of swashbucklers in the dps department.  Nice, so your saying you should be able to do EVERYTHING better than a swashbuckler.</P> <P>Your right though, so far I havent managed to beat tarinax without a brigand.  Here's what we will do.  Lets both fraps it with and without a brigand.  Ill be willing to bet in both cases without the brigand, tarinax wins.  Then Ill fraps it with one and show you one where he dies in under 2minuts with 0 raid deaths.  It makes that big of a difference.</P>

[Magus_Bl]

<P>Yeah everyone should have brigand debuffs.</P> <P>And wizzy's should be able to wear plate.</P> <P>And defilers should be able to cast ice nova.</P> <P>Shaaaaaaaaaame on Mialia for inviting the trolls.  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Someone spritz this thread with some antiseptic before it festers. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Shidonya]

<P>I've been a brigand since day 1 before the whole LU13 change. I picked the class cause it sounded more like a thief type to me and it showed that it would have many abilities that would be different than any other class. That being said, brigands are not as sought after as you think I've solo'd 80 to 90% of my levels and if I'm not on in time for raid rest assured no one is dropped to put me in nor should they be. Yes I have a niche and I like it but I knew a long time ago that what I chose was going to be different and I wanted to be different. It is not the brigand communities fault that people didn't find the brigand class sexy enough to play. But even before LU13 we still were a viable class obviously since I solo'd so much.</P> <P>If people want our abilities they need to make our class I do not want to be able to heal, I do not want to nuke, I do not like to tank, I do not like to use pets, I do not like to shoot arrows and I do not like to play music, and I would dare say that most other classes don't want to be [Removed for Content] around as a debuff class thus why they didn't pick it. I mean for crying out loud all I hear healers say is "I hate to cure trauma" since KoS came out and you think other classes would want abilities they didn't go for in the beginning?</P> <P>LU13 has been out for a very long time now and people had ample time to get a level 70 brigand out and yet they haven't shouldn't that tell us something.</P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ishboozor wrote:<BR> <P>I am currently at work, but when I get home I will bring the exact numbers, obviously posting anything in the rough neighborhood is just going to result in extreme scrutiny by others. </P> <P>Ill say this though, poisons cant really count because the brigand can also use them.  It brings say an assassin 900 points closer, but the brigand can use it to gain that 900 points back. </P> <P>As for reasonably close, I would say it changes the higher the numbers get.  500 to 1000 is not reaosonably close because one is 2x as good as the other, but 1500 to 2000 is reasonable close imo. </P> <P>The thing is, there is NO class that can come close when you stack your skills together.  Especially when you make use of your <FONT color=#ffcc00>double up</FONT> feature.  Is stacking them always the best route since they do not last forever?  No, but it is possible and nobody else can do it.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Correct me if I'm wrong but double up only doubles the damage not the effect of the CA. This is the way it worked originally and unless I missed an update note somewhere I believe it to be the same today. Which if used this way use to cause timer problems for our debuff CA's.<BR></P> <P>Summary should other classes get debuffs of our stature or close - no. We were designed this way and we liked it enough to make the class other people didn't like the design of them and passed along. Since they've tasted the honey they like the flavor doesn't mean they get a product change sorry make more brigands. </P>

[Montaigu]

<DIV>Ish..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont need to know who you are, dont give a S what guild you are in, BUT C) yes I do know about End Game Raiding.  I have been playing Everquest 1/2 for 7 years now, so ya I think I am quite qualified to talk about end game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No I didnt think you are really a ranger.  I was saying that as joke, but my real point was your CRUSADE for them.  I just find it kind of unusual.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you read the rest of that Paragraph about the Brigand Guildee that parses 721, then you would have read that I think that sux too, and but its cause of the reason I listed.  Dont know what they doing or most likely a slacker that just shows up to the raid and is semi afk half the time.  Which is why I said, i watch the parses per encounter like a hawk.  So i know who is slacking.  Which is also why I just started a Brigand.  So I can show them what a real Brigand can do.  Cause I think that his parses are just shameful.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes I know that ranger have debuffs.  Almost every class has debuffs of some kind.  But Rangers are nothing like our at the moment, and I am totally against what you are suggesting.  That their debuffs  should be brought online or close to online with Brigand Debuffs.  Try to remember what you are crusading for on this thread next time and that will make it easier to understand what someone reply is about.  I also know that our rangers usually parse around 1200, anymore than that thou, usually gets them killed.  So it not that they cant do more damage, but that agro limits them from doing more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lastly, much like the rest of my sarcastic post, I was being facetious when i suggest about suspending the accounts.  Go look that word up in the dictionary if you dont know what it means.  Once again, you missed the point of what i was trying to say.  So i will say in plain simple words.  You cannot compare the DPS of a Ranger to that of a Brigand that is using an Exploit (wurmslayer as a 1H).  And the only reason I brought this up is for all the people like you who are crying for a nerf here to us Brigands.  Saying we are T1 DPS, have the bestest buffs are gods blah blah blah.  Really kind of sickens me everytime people do that stuff.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And the comment about people checking parsing was just for general info for everyone.  Because this issue always comes up on the forums and instead of requesting log files and such, just thought people should know. if you dont believe someone's parse number, go make an alt and parse them yourselfs.  Then you will know without a doubt.</DIV>

[Riversideblues]

1) if i parsed 721, i would just be autoattacking and using a few ca's, atm we parse just fine, any good assasin/wizard/conj/necro can beat us more than 80% of the time and zerker/swashes on even 2 mob encounters, see the real problem with dps?? (warlocks/rangers)2) i use the wurmslayer 2h on dracota/dragon/droag mobs, it isn't an exploit. there were no suspentions or warnings about 2h'ing a wurmslayer with wisdom line, it was an oversight by soe that will be fixed in lu 24.3) while it may seem ishbu is on a burning crusade to nerf us, if you read what he's saying you will notice all he is saying is that brigands shouldn't be nerfed, and that there's a problem when one subclass is needed to beat some encounters.3a) i agree that one subclass shouldn't be required for to kill every mob, (remember t5 with guardians?) but atm you really don't need us to kill every mob, we help, but so does everyone else (besides monks/rangers) and that swash (offensive) debuffs need to be brought in line with ours (defencive)3b) the problem is, it doesn't really seem like all the debuffs stack well, many classes can debuff mitagation, scout poisons ect, but try dropping your brig for tarinax, it's 10x harder even if other classes can stack theirs4) i beleive after lu24 brigands will be right where they need to be, with rangers/warlocks needing a big upgrade when it comes to dps and debuffing abilities, this issue does NOT in anyway involve anymore nerfs<div></div>

[Riversideblues]

<div></div>(html error? had to put this in wordpad just to get it to post <span>:smileyindifferent:</span>)have colour coded this post to get around myrculus' strange logic--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Myrculus wrote:<font color="#ff3300">I don't see you championing anywhere then that Brigands should get 80% of a Swashbucklers AoE prowess, or 80% of their DPS debuffing.</font>Etc.<font color="#ffff66">You're barely worth the effort of striking keys on a keyboard to reply to.</font><font color="#cc00ff">So sorry you're such a cruddy player you can't figure out how to kill a mob without a Brigand.  </font>  <font color="#009900">Maybe thats uncalled for, but with the frequency you tell other people they are idiots and can't play their class, I figured it was appropriate.</font>M--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<font color="#ffff99">if you don't think it's worth typing then why reply, do you like to feel a little pretentious? little they key world <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font><font color="#ffff99"></font><font color="#ffff99">save us the trouble with not typing then, because unfortunatly people can't turn off their ability to read</font><font color="#ff3333"></font><font color="#ff3333">notice ishbu said swashbuckler debuffs inline with brigands? as in defence/offence not us giving them anything</font><font color="#cc00ff">send nektulos.tangarth a tell when you kill tarinax without a brigand</font><font color="#009900">so you're a hypocrite? at least ishbu knows what he's talking about and tried to back them up with logs/numbers/logic, not assumptions</font>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Myrculus wrote:So, you have performed these raids WITHOUT the brigand right?So if the raid is successful WITHOUT the Brigand, just a bit easier with them, then you don't NEED the Brigand with you.There is no requirement to have a Brigand on a raid for it to be successful.Try one without healers.Try one without a good Tank.M--------------------------------------------------------------------------------look up logical fallacy in the dictionary,asking a question, assuming it to be true, then ridicule assuming it is = "begging the question"read the thread, ishbu more than once talked about the raid where i wasn't there, and the raid i was asked to drop for one attempt <div></div><p>Message Edited by Riversideblues on <span class=date_text>06-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:26 PM</span>

[Damari]

<P>Hey Ishbu, welcome to our forums.</P> <P>first: A clever man shouldnt have to resort to insults.</P> <P>second:  I think its fair to say I agree with you that currently brigands are in the top 3 at raids, no arguement there.  This is helped because we don't have to joust which does lessen the dps of other classes by say 15-25%.  People tend to forget about that fact when comparing notes.</P> <P>Third.  I think we understand what your trying to say but Agra has it right.  If, as you say, SoE boost swashys debuffs to 1700, then it has to come from somewhere.  They don't just add skills to this game, its a trade off.  for another class to gain in debuffing abilities, the equal debuffing value has to be lost from another class.  So the only way another class will get debuffing skills improved will be at the loss to brigands. 'On the next LU.......'</P> <P>Oj mobs can be killed without a brigand, it just takes longer.</P>

[Carna]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Goonch wrote:<BR> socio stop posting and giving brigands a bad name.   your list of where brigands are in dps just shows how little you know what you're talking about... rogues are right behind summoners and assassins in dps with the rangers and sorcerers occasionally beating us...  and putting zerkers and brawlers ahead of us?  for shame. <P>Message Edited by Goonch on <SPAN class=date_text>06-01-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>01:59 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Actually mate you're taking your slice of experience and assuming it's the whole experience.</P> <P>My Ranger is playing almost exclusively in groups in T6 content, and my Brigand is only just starting T7 content with only occasional raiding.... if I suck badly with one I suck badly as much with the other... My Ranger does not get outdamaged by any Rogues in his groups. Not a one.</P> <P>You might also consider that if a Brawler is put at the sharp end of a dps group and you're not, he is likely end up outdamaging you. Often it is the case that the sum total of your personal damage is the group behind you and their focus on you. Just because you're getting this particular focus don't assume it's the whole picture, because it's certainly not the whole game.</P>

[sociobiologi]

<div></div>I play in a semi-hardcore raiding guild and I may be clueless about a lot of ingame issues like what raiding strategies to use where. This may stem from my lack of intellect or from my real life responsibilities for a hospital staff and around 50 patients. Being a fairly casual player writing in my second language, having opinions on my main and only character/class (lv 70 brigand), I may come across as feeble minded to some of you, especially certain people of obvious superior intellect such as Ishboozer. Such a terrible waste of mental resources spending all day at work writing game posts, wonder why you are not working in NASA.In todays raid: Lycreum i parsed 800-1400 dps (im str/agil AA specced). Our assassin parsed 1200-1900 dps, and on multi-group encounters our warlock parsed up to 2k (but got aggro and died too often and had to lay back a bit...give the guys better aggro control!). I am not going to mention the DPS i have seen parsed on necro pets alone. Our Wizards did around 1000-1500 dps. Our zerker maintained a steady 1k dps. Switch groups around and the figures vary immensely (haste and dps buffs). Now my guild loves me for my debuffs that reduce mobe lifetime. Even though I am the only brigand in the guild, they do not cancel raids when I can not attend (which is often). They just spend around 30% more time plowing through mobs. Does this make me attractive?... yes... Does it make me neccesary?.....no.... You know what raids are cancelled for? Not a lack of brigands (or scouts), but a lack of healers (or main tank).So Ishboozer, you mystery man you, what class do you really play? Please tell us, we are dying to know. I have seen you refer to yourself as a caster in previous threads, but who knows.<div></div><p>Message Edited by sociobiologist on <span class=date_text>06-02-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:16 AM</span>

[Tokam]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <BR>In todays raid: Lycreum i parsed 800-1400 dps (im str/agil AA specced). Our assassin parsed 1200-1900 dps, and on multi-group encounters our warlock parsed up to 2k (but got aggro and died too often and had to lay back a bit...give the guys better aggro control!). <FONT color=#ff0000>I am not going to mention the DPS i have seen parsed on necro pets alone.</FONT> Our Wizards did around 1000-1500 dps. Our zerker maintained a steady 1k dps. Switch groups around and the figures vary immensely (haste and dps buffs).<BR><BR><BR>So Ishboozer, you mystery man you, what class do you really play? Please tell us, we are dying to know. I have seen you refer to yourself as a caster in previous threads, but who knows.<BR><BR> <P>Message Edited by sociobiologist on <SPAN class=date_text>06-02-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>01:16 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><SPAN>Well I am because muppets like you are always buggering up the parse, so thanks for the nerf. But hey... lets try and keep the thread unlocked.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN><SPAN>Ish plays (I believe) a conjurer</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>The thread seems to have gone round and round in circles since I last posted and I am still wondering about the apparent necessity of a brigand to orange con epic encounters. Obviously the brigand debuff will, once landed, effectively increase the raid dps. This much is obvious, and it is equally obvious why this form of debuff is more desirable than a sta debuff (which would, as a net result) have a similar effect of reducing the encounter duration.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>The evident statement would seem to be that dispatch / devitalize allow the raid to land further debuffs to make the encounter manageable (as I think Ish said), which implies that the resist / miss chances are reduced on a successful attack. Should an alteration be made to the swashbuckler debuffs, allowing them to reduce the likelihood of a spell or CA missing? or would this change unbalance other areas of the game (which must be considered). Rather than giving a second sub class carte blanche debuffing rights.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>PS: If brigands have to loose their unique dispatch / devitalise / debilitate type abilities then can someone else (ie please brigands) get a lich / arch lich type buff? :smileytongue:</SPAN></P> <P> </P>

[Gyilok]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sociobiologist wrote:<BR> <BR>So Ishboozer, you mystery man you, what class do you really play? Please tell us, we are dying to know. I have seen you refer to yourself as a caster in previous threads, but who knows.<BR><BR> <P> <HR> <P>click his sig sherlock</P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Ishbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sociobiologist wrote:<BR> I play in a semi-hardcore raiding guild and I may be clueless about a lot of ingame issues like what raiding strategies to use where. This may stem from my lack of intellect or from my real life responsibilities for a hospital staff and around 50 patients. Being a fairly casual player writing in my second language, having opinions on my main and only character/class (lv 70 brigand), I may come across as feeble minded to some of you, especially certain people of obvious superior intellect such as Ishboozer. Such a terrible waste of mental resources spending all day at work writing game posts, wonder why you are not working in NASA.<BR><BR>In todays raid: Lycreum i parsed 800-1400 dps (im str/agil AA specced). Our assassin parsed 1200-1900 dps, and on multi-group encounters our warlock parsed up to 2k (but got aggro and died too often and had to lay back a bit...give the guys better aggro control!). I am not going to mention the DPS i have seen parsed on necro pets alone. Our Wizards did around 1000-1500 dps. Our zerker maintained a steady 1k dps. Switch groups around and the figures vary immensely (haste and dps buffs).<BR><BR>Now my guild loves me for my debuffs that reduce mobe lifetime. Even though I am the only brigand in the guild, they do not cancel raids when I can not attend (which is often). They just spend around 30% more time plowing through mobs. Does this make me attractive?... yes... Does it make me neccesary?.....no.... You know what raids are cancelled for? Not a lack of brigands (or scouts), but a lack of healers (or main tank).<BR><BR>So Ishboozer, you mystery man you, what class do you really play? Please tell us, we are dying to know. I have seen you refer to yourself as a caster in previous threads, but who knows.<BR><BR> <P>Message Edited by sociobiologist on <SPAN class=date_text>06-02-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>01:16 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Ill start at the bottom.  Yes, I play a conjuror.  Didnt think it was that big of a mystery since there is a big flashing, eye catching, signature at the bottom of everyone of my posts that links directly to my eq2players profile. </P> <P>Lets start with what you are talking about, group make up.  All scout classes need support, thats a fact.  If a ranger is grouped with a berserker, an illusionist, a conjuror, etc they are going to parse much higher than the brigand in a group with nothing but other scouts.  When I refer to class dps I am referring as if they were in the same group with the same buffs.  It is completely unfair to judge someone on what they do compared to someone else when that other person has several beneficial buffs the other does not. </P> <P>Your claiming that you increase raid productivety on regular raids mobs (in your example lyceum) by 30%.  Ok now for an orange con mob you can double that.  THAT is what my point this entire time.  60% change from one person playing just one class is ridiculous.  Hell 30% from one person playing one class on regular epic encounters is too much too.  You say raids are called off due to lack of healers, that is a roll that 6 classes can fill.  You flat out state you make a 30% difference and that is a roll only one class can do. </P> <P>With the way SOE has "dumbed" down this game, saying your in a semi-hardcore raiding guild doesnt really explain much.  There are 200 guilds out there now with deathtoll access that claim to be high end, but dont stand a chance against a mob like tarinax, let alone cruor.  Without knowing the highest level mobs you've killed, all I can tell from your post is that you have killed trash in lyceum.  I will assume you killed more than that, but to what degree I dont know.  All I know is nothing you said makes me think that you have any experience on an orange con epicx4 like tarinax at all, and especially with or without a brigand, wich is what my point has revolved around this entire time.  </P> <P>And for the record, I really dont care what you do in real life etc.  Everything I post about has to do with ingame and ingame only.  For all I know you can have an IQ of 200 or of 50 and either way it wont change my opinion of you one bit because your still a fool to think that RL has anything to do with this game.</P> <P>To that other guy playing in groups against heroic mobs as a ranger in t6 and a brigand in t7, that really doesnt have any measure on the orange con raid mob  topic does it?</P>

[Magus_Bl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ishboozor wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>All I know is nothing you said makes me think that you have any experience on an orange con epicx4 like tarinax at all, and especially with or without a brigand, wich is what my point has revolved around this entire time.  </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>And for the record, I really dont care what you do in real life etc.  Everything I post about has to do with ingame and ingame only.  For all I know you can have an IQ of 200 or of 50 and either way it wont change my opinion of you one bit because your still a fool to think that RL has anything to do with this game.</P> <P>To that other guy playing in groups against heroic mobs as a ranger in t6 and a brigand in t7, that really doesnt have any measure on the orange con raid mob  topic does it?</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>So because it is necessary to have a brigand in raid for what currently amounts to one raid mob out of the entire game, you think there is some great imbalance.  Get a clue.</P> <P>Firstly, you are making generalizations about orange con raid mobs that are not true at all.  Tell me you've never taken down Sunchild without a brigand in T6.  I guess you could argue that this is T7 blah blah blah... but that just narrows your argument down to:  There is one orange con raid mob in T7 that requires a brigand.</P> <P>If you're trying to make conjuror the new T1 whine class of the forums, you're doing a bang-up job.</P> <P>You can hide behind all your BS about how you don't want to have to have a brigand in raid to take down a certain mob, etc.... but really this is a cry for a brigand nerf.  So don't come here spewing your elitist excrement all up and down this thread and expect not to get flamed... especially at a time that your class is getting hit with the nerf bat.</P>

[Ishbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Magus_Blue wrote:</P> <P>So because it is necessary to have a brigand in raid for what currently amounts to one raid mob out of the entire game, you think there is some great imbalance.  Get a clue.</P> <P>Firstly, you are making generalizations about orange con raid mobs that are not true at all.  Tell me you've never taken down Sunchild without a brigand in T6.  I guess you could argue that this is T7 blah blah blah... but that just narrows your argument down to:  There is one orange con raid mob in T7 that requires a brigand.</P> <P>If you're trying to make conjuror the new T1 whine class of the forums, you're doing a bang-up job.</P> <P>You can hide behind all your BS about how you don't want to have to have a brigand in raid to take down a certain mob, etc.... but really this is a cry for a brigand nerf.  So don't come here spewing your elitist excrement all up and down this thread and expect not to get flamed... especially at a time that your class is getting hit with the nerf bat.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Magus, I have to ask, are you just stalking me?  I know I came to this thread because my name was called out into it out of nowhere by a brigand.  Whats your excuse?</P> <P>As was briefly discussed earlier t6 seemed to be different in terms of orange con mobs.  Take for example the djinn master.  He was level 68.  If tarinax was 68 anybody who has fought him can tell you that landing [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is going to be [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] near impossible.  Its a difference between tiers as we have leveled up.  Believe it or not, things change. </P> <P>The generalization I have made is 100% true.  Nobody has beaten the orange con nightblood and that just leaves tarinax.  So basically EVERY orange con raid mob in the high end raid game pretty much needs a brigand.  You even have brigands in this thread argueing against me that still claim on yellow mobs they make a 30% difference.  Obviously this difference increases on orange mobs and that goes against what SOE has said from the begining, and as recent as a couple weeks ago about having one class being so heavily relied upon for things.</P> <P>If you would actually read instead of just troll around me, you would notice I clearly stated that nerfing them woudl be the worst thing that could happen.  Lowering their abilities would be just plain stupid and if you think I am asking for that you need to take a reading comprehension class.</P> <P>As for my class being nerfed, I am being dps nerfed, and that is completely irrelavent to this thread. Nowhere did I ever say brigands are doing too much dps or they need to be nerfed.  Not once.  Just because your for some reason following me around trying to pick an arguement doesnt mean you have any idea whats going on.  There are a few brigands here who have done a good job argueing against me.  There are a couple people earlier on that did a decent job of being on my side. You magus, are just sad though.</P> <P>You know what, if there is no great imbalance between having a brigand and not having one, I dont see why you guys care if what I have been proposing happens or not.  Obviously you feel that what you do doesnt make a big difference at all, and certaintly not to the point where you have a monoply in these situations, so having a class that does it at a similar but still lower level than you shouldnt matter at all.</P>

[MilkToa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ishboozor wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sociobiologist wrote:<BR> I play in a semi-hardcore raiding guild and I may be clueless about a lot of ingame issues like what raiding strategies to use where. This may stem from my lack of intellect or from my real life responsibilities for a hospital staff and around 50 patients. Being a fairly casual player writing in my second language, having opinions on my main and only character/class (lv 70 brigand), I may come across as feeble minded to some of you, especially certain people of obvious superior intellect such as Ishboozer. Such a terrible waste of mental resources spending all day at work writing game posts, wonder why you are not working in NASA.<BR><BR>In todays raid: Lycreum i parsed 800-1400 dps (im str/agil AA specced). Our assassin parsed 1200-1900 dps, and on multi-group encounters our warlock parsed up to 2k (but got aggro and died too often and had to lay back a bit...give the guys better aggro control!). I am not going to mention the DPS i have seen parsed on necro pets alone. Our Wizards did around 1000-1500 dps. Our zerker maintained a steady 1k dps. Switch groups around and the figures vary immensely (haste and dps buffs).<BR><BR>Now my guild loves me for my debuffs that reduce mobe lifetime. Even though I am the only brigand in the guild, they do not cancel raids when I can not attend (which is often). They just spend around 30% more time plowing through mobs. Does this make me attractive?... yes... Does it make me neccesary?.....no.... You know what raids are cancelled for? Not a lack of brigands (or scouts), but a lack of healers (or main tank).<BR><BR>So Ishboozer, you mystery man you, what class do you really play? Please tell us, we are dying to know. I have seen you refer to yourself as a caster in previous threads, but who knows.<BR><BR> <P>Message Edited by sociobiologist on <SPAN class=date_text>06-02-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>01:16 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Ill start at the bottom.  Yes, I play a conjuror.  Didnt think it was that big of a mystery since there is a big flashing, eye catching, signature at the bottom of everyone of my posts that links directly to my eq2players profile. </P> <P>Lets start with what you are talking about, group make up.  All scout classes need support, thats a fact.  If a ranger is grouped with a berserker, an illusionist, a conjuror, etc they are going to parse much higher than the brigand in a group with nothing but other scouts.  When I refer to class dps I am referring as if they were in the same group with the same buffs.  It is completely unfair to judge someone on what they do compared to someone else when that other person has several beneficial buffs the other does not. </P> <P>Your claiming that you increase raid productivety on regular raids mobs (in your example lyceum) by 30%.  Ok now for an orange con mob you can double that.  THAT is what my point this entire time.  60% change from one person playing just one class is ridiculous.  Hell 30% from one person playing one class on regular epic encounters is too much too.  You say raids are called off due to lack of healers, that is a roll that 6 classes can fill.  You flat out state you make a 30% difference and that is a roll only one class can do. </P> <P>With the way SOE has "dumbed" down this game, saying your in a semi-hardcore raiding guild doesnt really explain much.  There are 200 guilds out there now with deathtoll access that claim to be high end, but dont stand a chance against a mob like tarinax, let alone cruor.  Without knowing the highest level mobs you've killed, all I can tell from your post is that you have killed trash in lyceum.  I will assume you killed more than that, but to what degree I dont know.  All I know is nothing you said makes me think that you have any experience on an orange con epicx4 like tarinax at all, and especially with or without a brigand, wich is what my point has revolved around this entire time.  </P> <P>And for the record, I really dont care what you do in real life etc.  Everything I post about has to do with ingame and ingame only.  For all I know you can have an IQ of 200 or of 50 and either way it wont change my opinion of you one bit because your still a fool to think that RL has anything to do with this game.</P> <P>To that other guy playing in groups against heroic mobs as a ranger in t6 and a brigand in t7, that really doesnt have any measure on the orange con raid mob  topic does it?</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Your point about healer is misleading. They aren't all equal - there's no way you're going to kill Tarinax with healers that are all the same class and you can't replace the defiler or templar in your MT group with a druid and call it good.</P> <P> </P>

[Ishbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MilkToast wrote:<BR> <P>Your point about healer is misleading. They aren't all equal - there's no way you're going to kill Tarinax with healers that are all the same class and you can't replace the defiler or templar in your MT group with a druid and call it good.</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You would be surprised.  We've done tarinax with no shaman.  We've done him with no cleric.  Never done him with no druid because we always have druids available I guess. Both the times we were missing whole archetypes of healers we only had 4 total healers on the raid. </P> <P>But I understand what your saying.  I should have said, there are 6 classes that can fill the healing roll.  Only two can fill a specific healing roll, but that is still 2x more than just a brigand.</P> <P>Does that look better?  Not trying to argue here with you, just trying to substitue the above little snippet into the paragraph where I didnt elaborate enough on healers.</P>

[ag]

And I still maintain that if an examination of the numbers were actually done, the disparity would not be so great as some imagine it is, with respect to magical and physical mitigation debuffs. So what I'm thinking is that hex doll + any other debuffing class + warding ebb =~ Brigand. (+/- 25% i'll estimate, so don't hold me to that, but that's my feeling)So if the argument is getting down to the numerics, let's see the numerics. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />(I'm leaving Dispatch and Double Up out of these calculations intentionally)For reference:AD3 Devitalize is -1960 physical mitigationAD3 Ruinous Rake is -1736 magical mitigationI know that many daily raiders will have Masters, but I'm presuming everyone doesn't have that luxury, but just about everyone will have the AD3 of these two signature abilities, if they're a daily raider.Grandmaster's Warding Ebb is -951 magicial mitigationSo if you had no Brigand on a particular orange con raid mob, but you had Swashbuckler, Ranger, or Assassin you'd need to make up a missing -785 magical mitigation. Coercer does at least that value that for sure, possibly a hex doll gets you close. So I'm going to say that Swashbuckler, Ranger, or Assassin with Grandmasters Warding Ebb + INT Hex Doll = AD3 Brigand for the purpose of magical mitigation debuff. (same duration, btw, 72 seconds on both effects, doll and poison)I'll have to get the values off the magical mitigation debuff hex doll to be sure, and get the ones off the physical to work the other numbers. (later)

[Ishbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> agra wrote:<BR>And I still maintain that if an examination of the numbers were actually done, the disparity would not be so great as some imagine it is, with respect to magical and physical mitigation debuffs. So what I'm thinking is that hex doll + any other debuffing class + warding ebb =~ Brigand. (+/- 25% i'll estimate, so don't hold me to that, but that's my feeling)<BR><BR>So if the argument is getting down to the numerics, let's see the numerics. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>(I'm leaving Dispatch and Double Up out of these calculations intentionally)<BR><BR>For reference:<BR><BR>AD3 Devitalize is -1960 physical mitigation<BR>AD3 Ruinous Rake is -1736 magical mitigation<BR><BR>I know that many daily raiders will have Masters, but I'm presuming everyone doesn't have that luxury, but just about everyone will have the AD3 of these two signature abilities, if they're a daily raider.<BR><BR>Grandmaster's Warding Ebb is -951 magicial mitigation<BR><BR>So if you had no Brigand on a particular orange con raid mob, but you had Swashbuckler, Ranger, or Assassin you'd need to make up a missing -785 magical mitigation. Coercer does at least that value that for sure, possibly a hex doll gets you close. So I'm going to say that Swashbuckler, Ranger, or Assassin with Grandmasters Warding Ebb + INT Hex Doll = AD3 Brigand for the purpose of magical mitigation debuff. (same duration, btw, 72 seconds on both effects, doll and poison)<BR><BR>I'll have to get the values off the magical mitigation debuff hex doll to be sure, and get the ones off the physical to work the other numbers. (later)<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Not going to argue this <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Id like to see it play out some more, see some more thought etc.  (for the record your the one i keep refering to as the competent brigand <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)

[leafnin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mikemcmodmike wrote:<BR> <P>I'll agree with you that rangers need a boost.  I believe they're lower because they don't have to sit in AoEs like assassins and swashies do but neither do we really.</P> <P>Swashies get something you're overlooking.  They debuff dps of the mob by a lot.  Almost as much as a shaman.  You need one to hit the dps mod cap along with 2 shamans.  Guard and 2 shamans doesn't hit it.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Just alittle correction on that for Rangers.  If your Ranger is sitting outside AoE the entire fight he won't break the top 10.  To be able to do the DPS we are capable of we need to close to melee esp since the raise in damage to our Melee CA's to be closer to Sins.   The main reasons Rangers are even able to appear ok is due to Poise and Perfectionist from our Agility and Strength AA lines( Which is also the reason some Sin's are doing so sh*t-hot).  We're fine in groups and solo it's only in raid that we lack something.  We don't want your debuffs.  Brigands make the mob vulnerable we exploit it.</P> <P> </P> <P>Falcon - Ranger - Kithicor</P> <P>Peregrian - Brigand - Kithicor</P>

[MilkToa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ishboozor wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MilkToast wrote:<BR> <P>Your point about healer is misleading. They aren't all equal - there's no way you're going to kill Tarinax with healers that are all the same class and you can't replace the defiler or templar in your MT group with a druid and call it good.</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You would be surprised.  We've done tarinax with no shaman.  We've done him with no cleric.  Never done him with no druid because we always have druids available I guess. Both the times we were missing whole archetypes of healers we only had 4 total healers on the raid. </P> <P>But I understand what your saying.  I should have said, there are 6 classes that can fill the healing roll.  Only two can fill a specific healing roll, but that is still 2x more than just a brigand.</P> <P>Does that look better?  Not trying to argue here with you, just trying to substitue the above little snippet into the paragraph where I didnt elaborate enough on healers.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I agree that there are a few specific encounters where a brigand may mean the difference between success and failure but I'm not sure I see it as a problem. If SOE were to changes thing so that a brigand is required to defeat the majority of raid mobs then I'd be more concerned.</P> <P>What's the point of classes having unique abilites if those abilities don't make a real difference in some situations?</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Montaigu]

<P>ISH,</P> <P>You seem to CONTRADICT yourself.   You say on a page 4 post that you only wanted one BRIGAND in your guild but because our buffs make such a huge difference, that  "you were forced to recruit a second brigand" for your guild.</P> <P>Interesting........why wouldnt  you want more than one Brigand in your guild?  You have repeatedly stated that they are the #1 DPS in your guild.  That our DPS is untouchable and our buffs are uber.  Yes you only want one in your guild!  Why would that be?  Oh I get it, your an EQUAL OPPURTUNITY EMPLOYER.  Got to make sure the status quo in your guild is right.  got one of each class do ya?  right on!</P> <P>Addtionally, this second Brigand your just recruited to the guild, I suppose he showed up with all Masters and FABLED gear too.  Cause we all know that you do NOT put up with SLACKERS.  So heaven forbid he dont parse #2 on the parser, cause then you would have to give him the boot! </P> <P> </P>

[Ishbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Montaigu wrote:<BR> <P>ISH,</P> <P>You seem to CONTRADICT yourself.   You say on a page 4 post that you only wanted one BRIGAND in your guild but because our buffs make such a huge difference, that  "you were forced to recruit a second brigand" for your guild.</P> <P>Interesting........why wouldnt  you want more than one Brigand in your guild?  You have repeatedly stated that they are the #1 DPS in your guild.  That our DPS is untouchable and our buffs are uber.  Yes you only want one in your guild!  Why would that be?  Oh I get it, your an EQUAL OPPURTUNITY EMPLOYER.  Got to make sure the status quo in your guild is right.  got one of each class do ya?  right on!</P> <P>Addtionally, this second Brigand your just recruited to the guild, I suppose he showed up with all Masters and FABLED gear too.  Cause we all know that you do NOT put up with SLACKERS.  So heaven forbid he dont parse #2 on the parser, cause then you would have to give him the boot! </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Um....are you sober?</P> <P>No brigand out dps's me anywhere, Im a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing conjuror and overpowered as hell in dps right now.  I never said a brigand is number 1 and I certantly never said brigands were doing too much dps.  I am perfectly happy with where brigand dps is. </P> <P>Why wouldnt I want more than 1 brigand in my guild, I dunno, maybe because I have a guild with less than 24 members and we try and maximze all potential.  There are classes that do more dps than brigands, and rightfully so, so having more than one lowers that potential, but as ive been saying there are just some encounters where having one is so freaking important we were forced to find a second one as an insurance policy.  Its the same reason guilds have more than 1 healer, because 1 simply isnt enough, but there are 6 classes to choose from there.</P> <P>Our second brigand did have a decent amount of fabled gear and mostly all masters.  Of course we primarily recruit from other raid guilds on other servers.  Its not really that uncommon.</P> <P>I really dont see how im contradicting myself saying I only wanted one but was forced to find a second due to the importance of the class.  That seems to be going along with my stance the whole way.</P>

[sociobiologi]

Ish...you arrogant [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] coming in here with your superior tone, asking if poster is sober.... Just had to feed the troll one last time. Moderators, please lock this thread.<div></div>

[Mialia]

<div></div>***OMG*** I shouldn't have started that *THING*. It was mostly a joke at first but anyway... 90% of posts are about raids. And i really don't care it's not my point. Brigand debuff mitigation. The more people you group with, the more powerfull we are ("we" refers to the entire raid force, not brigands alone). If anyone want to make raid harder, just limit the numbers of raiders to 20 that can make the game harder. Brigands are raiding machines, right. But we are always focused on one mob. Our debuff have 1 minute timer, and in groups you can chain 2 encounters in 1 minute in good conditions. We are less effective in groups, still we are not useless.<div></div> My point was about solo play. We loose some damage with LU24. Yes our DPS is going down, its nerfing. For high level raiding brigands its fine. But the two CA nerfed are early ones. Soloing will become more difficult, especially for lower levels. I remember I had to stop solo play in T3-T4 because i lacked some punch. This was solved when i reached lvl50. After lu24, new brigand players may have to stop solo play earlier. Nerfing damage of higher level CA should be better in my opinion.Leafnin says about rangers : "We're fine in groups and solo it's only in raid that we lack something.  We don't want your debuffs.  Brigands make the mob vulnerable we exploit it." I'm sure you are, we're debuffing mobs to make you shine, bud. Maybe you're less effective in raids because you're more effective elsewhere. I don't say you have to suck in raids, but other game situations look less risky for rangers in MY opinion (i am not stating i am true)Anyway some classes are effective all the time :p. I don't blame, I just want an easy solo life (yes i'm proud to be lazy). And I just dont want some archilich thing on my brigand, just give it to swashies, they are fond of spamming the screen with damages procs :p.Every nerf affects one ore more sides of the game : solo, group, raid, and PvP play. The stun revamp is affecting solo, group and PvP. Future LU can affect more than the raiding side of the game, i hope SOE can put all game style in balance before nerfing.<p>Message Edited by Mialia on <span class=date_text>06-02-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:03 PM</span>

[Rottenapple]

Heh, that seems to be the pattern on these boards, that recent poll showed most solo, and threads seem to end up mainly about raiding. Go figure. Anyway, I made a level 70 Brigand on the test server through that temporary NPC to test out damage and changes to skills. I didn't do any parses or anything but I didn't notice any major difference. The directional root on Restrain worked fine, but the M2 damage was pretty close to the M2 damage of Subdue on the live servers. I guess it didn't really matter since I usually follow up that skill with Double Up. Another nice thing was the animation bugs on our CAs... I didn't notice any.<span> :smileyvery-happy:</span><div></div>

[Tokam]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mialia wrote:<BR> ***OMG***<BR><BR><BR>And I just dont want some archilich thing on my brigand, just give it to swashies, they are fond of spamming the screen with damages procs :p.<BR><BR><BR> <P>Message Edited by Mialia on <SPAN class=date_text>06-02-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>05:03 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>hehe I never spam procs - honest...</P> <P>*looks over shoulder nervously*</P> <P>I dont have much more to add because I AM posting while drunk... /wibble<BR></P>

[Riversideblues]

<div><font size="4">my notes on what's up:</font><blockquote><hr>sociobiologist wrote:Ish...you arrogant [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] coming in here with your superior tone, asking if poster is sober.... Just had to feed the troll one last time. Moderators, please lock this thread.<div></div><hr></blockquote>-socio, the only reason this thread may get locked is because people are either posting illogically, and ishbu it pointing out your errors or you're just outright sending personal attacks becuase you don't have any rejoiner.  -i've seen ishbu restate himself about 7 times on this thread, why don't you read what he says instead-we also recruited a second brigand because i have school later on wednsdays (hence that one trip to deathtoll without me <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)-there are lots of things i agree with that ishbu talks about, and many things i disagree with, just becuase all of his opinions aren't the same doesn't mean i have to flame him or his character, that's a very very weak way of proving your point.  i do however agree that one class shouldn't be the be all end all of orange mobs in t7 (t7, not talking t6 here, things are much different) becuase look at guardians in t5, they took some maaajor hits becuase of it-calm down everyone and think before you post, don't need to get mad or throw personal attacks</div>

[Carna]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Riversideblues wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>-calm down everyone and think before you post, don't need to get mad or throw personal attacks<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Read back over Ish's posts. I'm not sure there's been a single one that isn't isulting or belittling. Ish's bottom line retort tends to be if you don't agree with me you just suck. You don't get to paint Ish as the voice of reason mate.... Ish is also very selective in what he responds to especially in Agra's posts.

[Ishbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Carnagh wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Riversideblues wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>-calm down everyone and think before you post, don't need to get mad or throw personal attacks<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Read back over Ish's posts. I'm not sure there's been a single one that isn't isulting or belittling. Ish's bottom line retort tends to be if you don't agree with me you just suck. You don't get to paint Ish as the voice of reason mate.... Ish is also very selective in what he responds to especially in Agra's posts.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No, just most people.  I may not agree with them but agra has earned my respect as has krythik.  People who come here and their arguement is that I am a ranger are just sad.

[Carna]

I'm sure Agra is just thrilled to have your respect. It's very magnanimous of you to bestow it.

[sociobiologi]

So we need to earn your respect on these forums Ishboozer, I see. Agra must be one lucky dog to be on the allmighty's good side. Two words: Virtual Megalomania!<div></div>

[NemaLVey]

<DIV><FONT color=#ffffff size=3> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff size=1>Your a closet Ranger!  Yeah I looked and saw your bright green stretchy pants hanging up.   </FONT></P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff size=1>Every class can debuff, just on a smaller scale.  So what??  Does this pitiful notion make you that upset?  Oh yeah, it takes more than one to do the same job....pfft.  Whatever.  Sounds exactly like class envy/hate.   If you didnt envy or hate, even in the slightest bit,  then this wouldnt be an issue with you.    </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff size=1>Your logic is that we debuff too much more than others... Unfortunately, that ( debuffing ) is what seperates us from the other melee DPS.   Nothing is balanced.  Nor should it ever.  Not every class can heal.  Not every class can tank. <U> Every class can debuff,</U> but thats where we excell, thats our role.  To be able to debuff greater.  Without that.... we are nothing better, than a second-rate Assassin.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff size=1></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff size=1>Back in EQ1, you couldnt raid without an enchanter or shaman being there.  This is no where near the same and it will never be. ( crosses fingers )   So please, stop with Brigs debuff too much.</FONT></P></FONT></DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by NemaLVey on <span class=date_text>06-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:15 AM</span>

[ag]

AD3 Devitalize is -1960 physical mitigationAD3 Ruinous Rake is -1736 magical mitigationGrandmaster's Warding Ebb is -951 magicial mitigationPristine Ruin (STA) Imbued Dragon's Breath Hex Doll: -774 - 947 physical mitigationPristine Chaos (INT) Imbued Dragon's Breath Hex Doll: -774 - 947 magical mitigationSo presuming you get the minimum value on the mob from the dolls...Swashbuckler, Ranger or Assassin using Hex Doll + Warding Ebb is -951 + -774 = -1725, 99.4% effective as Ruinous Rake (Brigand). BTW if the Hex Doll hits for max debuff and the poison is on too, it'd be -1898, or 109% as effective as the Brigand. There are many classes that also debuff all magical damage such as Bard, Inquisitor, and Coercer, which could take the place of either the INT doll or the poison.Physical Mitigation is a bit trickier, because there's no physical mitigation debuff poison anymore, so you'd need another class to give you that extra -1009 when compared to the hex doll alone.Shadowknights Despoil AD3 is -1470Templar Admonishment M1 is -832Inquisitor Convict M1 is -634Assassin Constriction M1 is -512Swashbuckler Guile M1 is -488Swashbuckler Whirl of Blades M1 is -840Dirge's Cataclysmic Cacophany M1 is -832So any combination of two of the above classes makes up the -1009 shortfall.So, barring the inclusion of Dispatch and Double Up (and please don't tell me a 13 second debuff is making or breaking ANY raid encounter..) , it is possible to replicate a Brigands debuffing abilities with the above information. Go forth, debuff!To sum up:Someone has to be the best at each 'thing' in these games. We're not the best at -anything- else. Just wanted to make sure everyone recognizes and understands that. Every other aspect of negatively affecting a target or positively affecting your allies, EVERYONE else in the game is better at EVERY one of those things, when compared to Brigands.And of course, because it has to be done./target Ishboozer/useability Clobber<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><i>Ew! I think I got some respect on me! ick ick!</i>EDIT: Spelling.<p>Message Edited by agra on <span class=date_text>06-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:50 AM</span>

[Ishbu]

<P>The 13 seconds makes an absolutely huge difference.  In those 13 seconds EVERY OTHER PERSON in raid can land their abilities.  Instead of having people fire off 5 casts and having 4 or 5 of them resisted, suddenly the mob is fully debuffed in one fell swoop.  Yes, those 13 seconds are the key, but then you do the other stuff better than anyone too.  </P> <P>Personally I feel with an ability like dispatch and double up you shouldnt have superiour debuffs because that combination is so [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] important.   However, I have never said that until now because that would be pretty ridiculous to change your class like that.  </P> <P>Since you are so surer the 13 seconds doesnt make a different, that really screams you havent fought tarinax and won.  It does make that big of a difference.  I know from experience.</P>

[sociobiologi]

<div></div>"Since you are so surer the 13 seconds doesnt make a different, that really screams you havent fought tarinax and won.  It does make that big of a difference.  I know from experience."Here we go again. Arrogant monologues continue. Circulate and suffocate!<div></div><p>Message Edited by sociobiologist on <span class=date_text>06-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:08 PM</span>

[ag]

<blockquote><hr>Ishboozor wrote:<P>The 13 seconds makes an absolutely huge difference.  In those 13 seconds EVERY OTHER PERSON in raid can land their abilities.  Instead of having people fire off 5 casts and having 4 or 5 of them resisted, suddenly the mob is fully debuffed in one fell swoop.  Yes, those 13 seconds are the key, but then you do the other stuff better than anyone too.  </P><P>Personally I feel with an ability like dispatch and double up you shouldnt have superiour debuffs because that combination is so [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] important.   However, I have never said that until now because that would be pretty ridiculous to change your class like that.  </P><P>Since you are so surer the 13 seconds doesnt make a different, that really screams you havent fought tarinax and won.  It does make that big of a difference.  I know from experience.</P><hr></blockquote>Sorry, Ishboozer, this is where I depart. It's just pure class envy now, and that I can't help you with. See you in game! /wave

[Tokam]

<FONT size=5></FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NemaLVey wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff size=3> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff size=1>Your a closet Ranger!  Yeah I looked and saw your bright green stretchy pants hanging up.   </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff size=1>Your logic is that we debuff too much more than others... Unfortunately, that ( debuffing ) is what seperates us from the other melee DPS.   Nothing is balanced.  Nor should it ever.  Not every class can heal.  Not every class can tank <FONT color=#ff0000 size=5>apart from brigands</FONT>. <U> Every class can debuff,</U> but thats where we excell, thats our role.  To be able to debuff greater.  Without that.... we are nothing better, than a second-rate Assassin.</FONT></P></FONT></DIV> <P>Message Edited by NemaLVey on <SPAN class=date_text>06-03-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:15 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>^There we go <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Fixed it for you Nema</P>

[Ishbu]

Notice you didnt say you had fought tarinax <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[StingrayLX]

<DIV>Folks,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ish is the guild raider of probably one of the best raiding guilds in all of EQ2.  That would indicate several things about his personlity; the most important being that he probably derives most, if not all, of his self worth from his skill in an online computer game.   The man obviously lives a very meager and pathetic existence and his superiority in this situation is critical </DIV>

[StingrayLX]

<DIV>Folks,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ish is the guild raider of probably one of the best raiding guilds in all of EQ2.  That would indicate several things about his personlity; the most important being that he probably derives most, if not all, of his self worth from his skill in an online computer game.   The man obviously lives a very meager and pathetic existence and his superiority in this situation is critical or </DIV>

[Rottenapple]

Hmm... there is much to read here, but tell me if I got it right, you are proposing broad sweeping Brigand debuff changes due to our 13-second claim to fame all because of our usefulness in orange con raids? I don't know, I think something as extraordinary as an orange con raid should have extraordinary requirements. But giving our debuffs to another class... meh, do you want to get rid of Brigands altogether?<div></div>

[kyth]

<div>    <blockquote><hr>StingrayLXIX wrote:<div>Folks,</div> <div> </div> <div>Ish is the guild raider of probably one of the best raiding guilds in all of EQ2.  That would indicate several things about his personlity; the most important being that he probably derives most, if not all, of his self worth from his skill in an online computer game.   The man obviously lives a very meager and pathetic existence and his superiority in this situation is critical or </div><hr></blockquote>So every person who raids has no life?  In that case did you know all african americans are good at sports?  All Mexicans are hard workers.  All people of asain origins are excellent at math?  I mean come on thats some stupid generalizations here.  </div>

[Riversideblues]

<div><blockquote><hr>kythik wrote:<div>    <blockquote><hr>StingrayLXIX wrote:<div>Folks,</div> <div> </div> <div>Ish is the guild raider of probably one of the best raiding guilds in all of EQ2.  That would indicate several things about his personlity; the most important being that he probably derives most, if not all, of his self worth from his skill in an online computer game.   The man obviously lives a very meager and pathetic existence and his superiority in this situation is critical or </div><hr></blockquote>So every person who raids has no life?  In that case did you know all african americans are good at sports?  All Mexicans are hard workers.  All people of asain origins are excellent at math?  I mean come on thats some stupid generalizations here.  </div><hr></blockquote>im not smart enough to make up a good responce so personal attacks will suffice<u><b><i>  <--- stingrayLxix</i></b></u></div>

[StingrayLX]

Sorry my post got caught off halway through. I did have some valid points but I dont feel like typing them all again.  If you look at Ish's post history you will find a post where he talks about playing the game for 4 days non stop without sleeping(excluding when the reboot servers). I was just pointing out you need to know who you are speaking too.

[Ishbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> StingrayLXIX wrote:<BR> Sorry my post got caught off halway through. I did have some valid points but I dont feel like typing them all again.  If you look at Ish's post history you will find a post where he talks about playing the game for 4 days non stop without sleeping(excluding when the reboot servers). I was just pointing out you need to know who you are speaking too.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Sorry for responding to the person who asked about how anyone could get to 70 within a week</P>

[Ishbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rottenapple wrote:<BR>Hmm... there is much to read here, but tell me if I got it right, you are proposing broad sweeping Brigand debuff changes due to our 13-second claim to fame all because of our usefulness in orange con raids? I don't know, I think something as extraordinary as an orange con raid should have extraordinary requirements. But giving our debuffs to another class... meh, do you want to get rid of Brigands altogether?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No, I do not want brigands changed or nerfed in any way, shape, or form.  That would be counterprodutctive to my point.  I just want another class or another class or 2 (not stacked) to be able to do around 80% of the brigands abilities to debuff.

[Rottenapple]

Hmm... a Ranger or Swashbuckler with 80% Brigand debuffs. It becomes which do you prefer for your guild/group, a Brigand or a Ranger/Swashie with 80% Brigand debuffs. For some reason, I feel I would end up on the losing end of that decision. Do you not want Brigands participating in orange con raids or is it do you often find yourself without a Brigand during orange con raids?<div></div>

[AlbinoLou]

Hi everyone, long time reader, first time poster.Can someone please explain two things to me.1) How does lowering Mitigation affects anyone's ability to land a debuff?  (Could it be Ruckus or Thrust that is making the difference)2) Why is double up even mentioned?...It <i><b><u>DOES NOT</u></b></i> allow the abilities to stack.  Only the damage....honest.  You might get an extra second and a half or so of Dispatch and that's it.  Although Doubling up Dispatch is a great way to get a chance to use Subterfuge.And no, I haven't beaten Deathtoll.....sorry if that makes me less knowledgeable about a class I've played for 70 levels than a conjurer.  And I'm also not drunk, stoned, or high but maybe I am a bad player.  <div></div>

[Gyilok]

<P>mitigation does not affect landing debuffs, but lowering resists does, take for example if a priest debuff is divine based, its got a higher chance to land if the mobs divine resist is lowered, copypaste the same to disease, mental, magic etc based debuffs, or even taunts</P> <P>ruckus and the thrust line should be making a difference, but it does not, just for example our raid usually has a mobs defense debuffed by atleast 200, but its useless since we hit yellows at about 98% accuracy anyway, and it doesnt help on orange at all (the ruckus line of debuffs lands 100% of the time for me, even on orange, so I assume its the same for all scouts with their non damaging defense debuff)</P> <P>not sure why double up was mentioned, actually using it with dispatch gives 200points extra in the debuff department and 1-3 sec more duration, but if someone thinks that double up got a chance of landing dispatch if the initial one missed, its not true, or I've been very unlucky sofar since it meant always double miss for me</P><p>Message Edited by Gyilok on <span class=date_text>06-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:58 AM</span>

[Ishbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rottenapple wrote:<BR>Hmm... a Ranger or Swashbuckler with 80% Brigand debuffs. It becomes which do you prefer for your guild/group, a Brigand or a Ranger/Swashie with 80% Brigand debuffs. For some reason, I feel I would end up on the losing end of that decision. Do you not want Brigands participating in orange con raids or is it do you often find yourself without a Brigand during orange con raids?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>When your talking about numbers in the multiple thousands, 20% is a good deal.  Brigands would definilty have a reserved slot for raids, and that is just me speaking as a raid leader.  Im not even sure where this 80% number came from, I just through out some random numbers off the top of my head in an example and we all just kind of went with that.  </P> <P>If even what I am proposing were to occur, brigands would still make a clear difference on the orange con encounters.  It just wouldnt come down to either you have a brigand or your entire raid needs to double their effort because of the lack of one class.  Another class or two could fill the void to a degree.  Not the same level a brigand could, but to the point where the encounter isnt 2x as hard because of the lack of one class.</P> <P>If someone can name ANY encounter in game that gets twice as hard just because you dont have one class, I will consider backing down on my stance.  To my knowledge, there isnt a single encounter where there arent at least 2 classes that can fill any needed roll, except for the orange encounters with brigands.</P>

[Sete Soujiro]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gyilok wrote:<BR> <P>mitigation does not affect landing debuffs, but lowering resists does, take for example if a priest debuff is divine based, its got a higher chance to land if the mobs divine resist is lowered, copypaste the same to disease, mental, magic etc based debuffs, or even taunts</P> <P>ruckus and the thrust line should be making a difference, but it does not, just for example our raid usually has a mobs defense debuffed by atleast 200, but its useless since we hit yellows at about 98% accuracy anyway, and it doesnt help on orange at all (the ruckus line of debuffs lands 100% of the time for me, even on orange, so I assume its the same for all scouts with their non damaging defense debuff)</P> <P>not sure why double up was mentioned, actually using it with dispatch gives 200points extra in the debuff department and 1-3 sec more duration, but if someone thinks that double up got a chance of landing dispatch if the initial one missed, its not true, or I've been very unlucky sofar since it meant always double miss for me</P> <P>Message Edited by Gyilok on <SPAN class=date_text>06-04-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:58 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I've never been able to double up anything that was initially missed either.  <BR></DIV>

[NemaLVey]

<P><FONT color=#cc99ff>/snicker</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff>There you go throwing around numbers off the top of your head ( <U><EM><STRONG>2x harder</STRONG></EM></U> ).  </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff>Your words, not mine.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff>Got any factual information to back that claim?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff>If that were true, then Brigands would trivialize any raids.   Your whinning for the sake of whinning.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff>Raids are a team effort, and if you like running raids with less than 24 people ( again, your words ), then expect them to work harder to meet the goal.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff>Oh, also, we do tend to miss alot more on orange con mobs, just like everyone else, and I do know Dispatch, Devitalize, and Ruinious Rake are not 100% to hit.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff>This is my last post on this thread as well.  I no longer feel like feeding the "<A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=Non-Gameplay&message.id=356199#M356199" target=_blank>muckfins</A>" on the Brig board.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff>LATERS!</FONT></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by NemaLVey on <span class=date_text>06-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:03 PM</span>

[Ishbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NemaLVey wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff>/snicker</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff>There you go throwing around numbers off the top of your head ( <U><EM><STRONG>2x harder</STRONG></EM></U> ).  </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff>Your words, not mine.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc99ff>Got any factual information to back that claim?</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Um yes I do.  Thats my whole point.  Without the brigand the mob did 2x the damage and the raid did half as much in the same time period. <BR></P>

[kyth]

    It keeps being brought up and i am tired of it.  That being brigands and OJ mobs.  We are talking about Mobs made OJ because that is how they make stuff "hard" with current game mechanics.  I am sure devs hate to do it, but it is much easier then yet another combat revamp.  Granted i really think a class revamp is needed again.  If the mechanics were changed, i am sure we wouldnt be having this discussion.   OJ mobs shouldnt be the  way to make encounters harder     Debuffs and debuffs and yet more debuffs.  Brigands can debuff defensive stats better then anyone.  We cant hide or deny that fact.  One of the many problems with the game is 24 classes is way to many.  Atleast 24 classes that are not diff enough from each other.  If we gave everyone 80% of brigand debuffs then we would be just smearing the lines of class uniqueness yet again.  Do we really need more of the same?  I really hate how they did this but they are basicaly making rogues into Melee-Shaman.      Personally I feel that player base needs to quit looking at what other classes can do and look at the game mechanics.  Most of the issues we have stem from them.  If +skills acctually ment +hit or +spell penetration then OJ mobs and debuffs would sorta level out.  If (granted i am not 100% on this) skill debuffs actually did something then maybe swash debuffs would be worth more.  At the moment brigands and debuff keep being brought up, but brigand debuffs are just a cover up for game mechanics issues.  Atleast that is my opinion, and i could very well be wrong.    Also I am tired of people calling "exploit" at random things.  Wurmslayer and Wisdom line is not an exploit.  I am 99% sure I was the first brigand with a wurmslayer.  I tried the wurmslayer with the wis line and I told everyone about it.  At FanFair i asked several devs about it and nothing was said about it being an exploit.   The reason double attack proc rate and now wurmslayer is being "changed"  is because players think out side of the box.  It wasnt until more brigands got the WS and more dps went up that they thought it was an issue.  And it was an issue, and it wont be.     Oh if you want to know what a true exploit it you can look up some good threads on the forums.  I can give you an example,  I am 99% sure I found the Wurmslayer dupe first.  I tested it to make sure i could recreat it every time.  After that I sent a dev a PM and told them exactly how to do it plus how much plat I made from it.  Next patch put a temp fix and shortly after a real fix went live.  That is what they do for exploits.  If they find them they fix them ASAP.  DPS is more of an after thought and they went about mechanics changes to "fix" it.  Also most of the Wurmslayers DPS was the 2h proc rate with double attack.  That was fixed last LU. The use of 2h wurmslayer + Wisdom line isnt that much of a hit.    In short, stop looking at classes that cover up the real problem.  The real problem being game mechanics that need work.   Maybe yet another class revamp is what we need (i hate to say it).  I know I dont want to be a melee shaman.   When I started playing shortly after the game came out I thought brigand would be uber dps.  That is thinking from eq1 rogues.  I was right, but the people who make the game say I shouldnt be.  I don't want to be a melee shaman.  <div></div>

[Ishbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kythik wrote:<BR><BR>    It keeps being brought up and i am tired of it.  That being brigands and OJ mobs.  We are talking about Mobs made OJ because that is how they make stuff "hard" with current game mechanics.  I am sure devs hate to do it, but it is much easier then yet another combat revamp.  Granted i really think a class revamp is needed again.  If the mechanics were changed, i am sure we wouldnt be having this discussion.   OJ mobs shouldnt be the  way to make encounters harder<BR><BR>     Debuffs and debuffs and yet more debuffs.  Brigands can debuff defensive stats better then anyone.  We cant hide or deny that fact.  One of the many problems with the game is 24 classes is way to many.  Atleast 24 classes that are not diff enough from each other.  If we gave everyone 80% of brigand debuffs then we would be just smearing the lines of class uniqueness yet again.  Do we really need more of the same?  I really hate how they did this but they are basicaly making rogues into Melee-Shaman.  <BR><BR>    Personally I feel that player base needs to quit looking at what other classes can do and look at the game mechanics.  Most of the issues we have stem from them.  If +skills acctually ment +hit or +spell penetration then OJ mobs and debuffs would sorta level out.  If (granted i am not 100% on this) skill debuffs actually did something then maybe swash debuffs would be worth more.  At the moment brigands and debuff keep being brought up, but brigand debuffs are just a cover up for game mechanics issues.  Atleast that is my opinion, and i could very well be wrong.<BR><BR>    Also I am tired of people calling "exploit" at random things.  Wurmslayer and Wisdom line is not an exploit.  I am 99% sure I was the first brigand with a wurmslayer.  I tried the wurmslayer with the wis line and I told everyone about it.  At FanFair i asked several devs about it and nothing was said about it being an exploit.   The reason double attack proc rate and now wurmslayer is being "changed"  is because players think out side of the box.  It wasnt until more brigands got the WS and more dps went up that they thought it was an issue.  And it was an issue, and it wont be. <BR><BR>    Oh if you want to know what a true exploit it you can look up some good threads on the forums.  I can give you an example,  I am 99% sure I found the Wurmslayer dupe first.  I tested it to make sure i could recreat it every time.  After that I sent a dev a PM and told them exactly how to do it plus how much plat I made from it.  Next patch put a temp fix and shortly after a real fix went live.  That is what they do for exploits.  If they find them they fix them ASAP.  DPS is more of an after thought and they went about mechanics changes to "fix" it.  Also most of the Wurmslayers DPS was the 2h proc rate with double attack.  That was fixed last LU. The use of 2h wurmslayer + Wisdom line isnt that much of a hit.<BR><BR><BR>    In short, stop looking at classes that cover up the real problem.  The real problem being game mechanics that need work.   Maybe yet another class revamp is what we need (i hate to say it).  I know I dont want to be a melee shaman.   When I started playing shortly after the game came out I thought brigand would be uber dps.  That is thinking from eq1 rogues.  I was right, but the people who make the game say I shouldnt be.  I don't want to be a melee shaman.  <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I have nothing to argue against that.  /agree

[Goonch]

Amen Kythik.  I don't think it could be said any better.

[Lings]

... just had to step in and comment on this one.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Daenks wrote:<BR>#1 Summoners are supposed ot be T3 DPS</P> <P><FONT color=#33ccff>Actually, you're wrong. Summoners <STRONG>with tank pets</STRONG> are T3. Summoners with Mage pets are T2</FONT><BR><BR>#2 I can avg a constant 1K DPS on raids, with power steal poison, wisdom AA line, and buffs from a DPS group setup for raids. Summoners run anywhere from 200 under that to 300 over that but don't sustain near as constant a number.</P> <P><FONT color=#00ccff>All right... see next one.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00ccff></FONT><BR>#3 When I go all out using all my abilities and have DR from an Iquisitor I can spike upwards of 1800 DPS. Way over that of Summoners for burst DPS, and this isn't just a burst, I have hit 1800 DPS for a 1 minute fight.<BR><BR>If the raid sets up groups correctly, and we are specced correctly, with the right poisons and Masters and order of attacks to deal the most DPS we can easily top the DPS charts most of the fights.</P> <P><FONT color=#00ccff><STRONG>Situational! </STRONG>That's one of the reasons that he said he regretted that DPS tiers post. Depending on the situation, and the player, a class can move up or down a tier or two.</FONT><BR><BR>Now that we have that over with, yes we are T2 dps, we need nerfing.<BR></P> <P><FONT color=#00ccff>Other than your opinion about your character, what basis do you have for that? Or is that sarcasm? I can never tell on a forum.</FONT><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>

[jarnpraetor]

<DIV>Sometimes I yearn for the meaningless existence of the Tier 5 raiding Brigand. At least the loot was better...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[kyth]

    t5 loot sucked.  stat wise it made no sense.  Only thing good about t5 was procs/effects.<div></div>

[Kegofbud]

<P>Also agree with Kythik's last post, before his post about T5 loot, fully. Thanks for posting again before I finished typing and forcing me to edit. lol</P> <P>  I know when I started on day one, the description of a Brigand most closely resembled what a Rogue was in EQ1 to me. I went that route because it was seemingly the DPS class of scouts remembered. LU13 changed our role another direction. I'm not upset with that role change, but I do not want yet another revamp based on the fact that we do one thing very well. Every class is becoming a smearing of all others. It makes me sick that every class in this game insists on tearing down others because they have something which they themselves do not.  There should not be equality of all classes. Every class needs something that sets them apart or there is no purpose to having different classes. Just make every class the same, with all the same abilities at that point and I'll gladly close my account on the day of that patch.</P> <P>  Those of you flaming Ishbu for mentioning who he respected have it wrong. The reason he mentioned who he mentioned was because those people historically bring a valid arguement with full knowledge to the table, without making up their arguement. I have yet to see a post from the people he mentioned that has ever made me think toherwise, even if I disagree with something they state. You earn respect with people on the boards by presenting valid facts, not made up statistics (which are what most posts seem to include now), doing so with respect for the other person. Flaming others is the fastest way to me ignoring your post because it adds nothing to the discussion. If you are going to flame Ishbu, do it because he's giving people seizures all over the world with his signature. :smileyvery-happy: Other then that, be constructive in your disagreement and I'm sure he'll be glad to debate.</P><p>Message Edited by Kegofbud on <span class=date_text>06-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:05 PM</span>

[sociobiologi]

Ishbu is not only factual. Most of the time he does not give evidence for his bold claims. What he does all of the time is portray himself as superior to those of different opinion. Ergo 0 respect.

[Kegofbud]

<DIV>  Well, if that was pointed at me, you'll notice I never said anything opposite of what you said. I never made any claims to Ishbu's personality. I had no reason to bring anything about him up. I don't know him any more then I know you. I see his posts, some I agree with, some I disagree. All I did was state why he mentioned who he mentioned. This thread has developed in to a flame one person thread by half the people here. Keep on point and debate the facts. If he says something you know to be different then please enlighten him. Accusing someone of saying something without fact is pointless if you aren't willing to provide any proof they are wrong.</DIV>

[sociobiologi]

<DIV>I am less concerned with his issues than with his tone. His points are overshadowed by the sheer magnitude of arrogant elitist jibberish. One should get factual replies to factual posts only.</DIV>

[Ishbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sociobiologist wrote:<BR> <DIV>I am less concerned with his issues than with his tone. <BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Exactly, you dont care about the issues.

[Myrcul]

<DIV>Did you just completely miss his point?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your presentaiton of your issues is the cause of the reactions you received.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bah</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>M</DIV>

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>Well I don't think they should give rangers mitigation debuffs.  Rangers rolled rangers for straight damage, not debuffs.</P> <P>If they give any class mitigation debuffs it should be Inquis.  Inquisators used to be like brigands are now with lots of mitigation debuffs and I'm sure they wouldn't mind getting some back.  Atm Templars debuff more mitigation then Inquisators.</P>

[Lings]

<P>Ishboozor...</P> <P><note to self:come back tomorrow with correct information to make comment on the effects of hex dolls and poisons on classes' debuffing capabilities></P> <P>You have said several times that any Brigand who doesn't outDPS a ranger either sucks or is slacking. How can you even make that statement? Just because someone can't  compete with your elite brigands with full master is and all fabled gear, doesn't mean they suck. Doesn't mean they slack either. You can't make that statement. I can't do tier 1 DPS. I know several other brigands who can't do T1 DPS.</P> <P>Asking to give some other class a brigand's debuff is just like asking to give some other class a pet on par with the Conjuror or Necromancer tank pets (or mage pets or scout pets). They don't, some classes have semipets (Illusionists get their Personae, but from what I've read, that's not really the same). You guys more or less have a monopoly on pets. Sure, other people have some pets here and there (heck, even we brigands have a short duration dumbfire pet swarm), but none of them even come close to what yours can do.</P> <P>Also, I read somewhere that you said that the "real" brigand players who started their characters before LU13, did it to be a DPS class. I am a "real" brigand player who started before that. I don't recall what my skills were like pre13, but I did not pick Brigand to be DPS. Honestly, why would anyone pick a class just to be second best? If you're going to be DPS pick an assassin or a wizard.</P> <P>Alot of what I've been seeing from you is insults. Insulting people and telling them that they're stupid or clueless is the <STRONG>ABSOLUTE WORST</STRONG> you could EVER use in a debate (similarly, forums). It's bad form and it just makes you look like a complete and total idiot. Resorting to insults because you can't come up with proof that you're right and those others are wrong?</P> <P>My biggest problem with you right now is you can't seem to go without insulting people.</P> <P>If there are any errors with anything I've said in my post, I'll catch it tomorrow. It's really late, and I need to get some rest for work.</P> <P><FONT color=#00ccff>And just in case you can't catch it, the statements about full fabled gear and all masters is somewhat sarcastic. You seem to have had trouble with sarcasm in this, insulting the person. I'm sure that a person with all fabled and masters WOULD be able to T1 DPS. I'm also sure that it's not absolutely necessary to have all that. Once I get a bit further into KoS, and get quests like MoA and Wurmslayer done, who knows? Maybe I will be able to hit that high. And, there is one other Brigand in my guild, his debuffs are actually at a lesser level than mine, and he's hardly ever on. My guild seems to make it fine without either me or him several times. Maybe it's this Tarinax that needs to be toned down. I don't know.</FONT></P>

[Nitanyspirit]

<P>I am rarely.... RARELY out dps'ed by anyone in a pickup group as I level, and the only times I am are a trigger-happy (and usually dead) Warlock, or a wizard that is benefitting from my rake line.  That being said, I spam my debuffs and I make sure my targets are as stunned as possible. </P> <P><BR>I think people need to remember to have fun, enjoy your character, and not the numbers that you put out.  Try rolling up a roleplaying character... it's fun I swear!  I mean seriously... how can you not have fun with a character named Bogus?</P>

[Radigazt]

<DIV>Buffing Rangers?!?!?!!?  Are you mad?!?!?!?  Rangers are by far the most overpowered class there is already in PvP.  They zone in with Immunity (AKA INVULNERABILITY), Track their cloth-wearing prey, remain invisible and immune until they see an easy easy easy kill, use their long casting bow attack while invis'd and immune followed up with their quick bow attacks so that they can deal maximum damage and kill a cloth wearer in 2 seconds, then before the cloth wearer's group can react they hit the bell and zone away back into Immunity again.  Now you want to add the trademark brigand ability, debuffing, so they can 2 second pwn Scouts without any risk too?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look at the PvP leaderboards ... it's by far the most played class and the top of the leaderboards is full of them.  There is virtually NO RISK and HUGE REWARDS.  Now you want to BUFF them?  Hell, that's as insane as giving a Guardian the Ranger Bow attacks ... all of em ... at the same damge ratings ... and giving him tracking and evac and stealth too.  I mean seriously, how much MORE of an advantage do you want to give Rangers?  Right now Rangers ability at range is roughly equivalent to having 95% Avoidance.  They rarely get hit at all in PvP, and when they do they have chain armor mitigation, 20% avoidance and can EVAC at any time.  Of course, that's assuming they actually get far enough away from a IMMUNITY/INVULNERABILITY bell to actually fight.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want to "balance" the Ranger class, just reduce all of their bow damage by 30% accross the board, remove their root ability, and eliminate the "immunity" from zoning and replace it with "you have been rooted because you are fleeing a PvP battle."  Look, if you want to play a Ranger, go ahead ... everyone else in Qeynos does ... hmmmm maybe there's a reason for that?</DIV>

[Riversideblues]

<div><blockquote><hr>Lingsch wrote:<div></div> <p>Ishboozor...</p> <p><note to self:come back tomorrow with correct information to make comment on the effects of hex dolls and poisons on classes' debuffing capabilities></p> <p>You have said several times that any Brigand who doesn't outDPS a ranger either sucks or is slacking. How can you even make that statement? Just because someone can't  compete with your elite brigands with full master is and all fabled gear, doesn't mean they suck. Doesn't mean they slack either. You can't make that statement. I can't do tier 1 DPS. I know several other brigands who can't do T1 DPS.</p> <p><font color="#ff0000">here you have got it wrong, at the moment rangers have been nerfed into oblivion, and to the point that most rangers are playing oblivion, because sony is too dumb to balance out their class with assasins/wizards (warlocks need a big helping too).</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">i would say i do or come close to teir 1 dps depending on the type of fight or if our assasins/summoners/wizard are slacking.and i've played with very good rangers who will just never touch my dps becuase of the limitations of their class</font></p><p><font color="#ff0000">so my question to you is, how can YOU even make the statement? don't post on something if you are so un-informed</font></p><p>Asking to give some other class a brigand's debuff is just like asking to give some other class a pet on par with the Conjuror or Necromancer tank pets (or mage pets or scout pets). They don't, some classes have semipets (Illusionists get their Personae, but from what I've read, that's not really the same). You guys more or less have a monopoly on pets. Sure, other people have some pets here and there (heck, even we brigands have a short duration dumbfire pet swarm), but none of them even come close to what yours can do.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">to be honest, they almost have, how many classes have swarm pets and dumbfires? shaman have a dog that can do 200-300 dps and avoid aoe's and buff the group, ishbu isn't asking for another class to get debilitate, but something small along those lines.</font></p> <p>Also, I read somewhere that you said that the "real" brigand players who started their characters before LU13, did it to be a DPS class. I am a "real" brigand player who started before that. I don't recall what my skills were like pre13, but I did not pick Brigand to be DPS. Honestly, why would anyone pick a class just to be second best? If you're going to be DPS pick an assassin or a wizard.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">99% sure that wasn't ishbu</font></p> <p>Alot of what I've been seeing from you is insults. Insulting people and telling them that they're stupid or clueless is the <strong>ABSOLUTE WORST</strong> you could EVER use in a debate (similarly, forums). It's bad form and it just makes you look like a complete and total idiot. Resorting to insults because you can't come up with proof that you're right and those others are wrong?</p><p><font color="#ff0000">you seem clueless since you're talking about a lot of things you must not know about, i know it sucks getting it pointed out though. ishbu has put in a LOT of proof, other people are insulting him, so i would insult back  (oops i did =D)</font></p> <p>My biggest problem with you right now is you can't seem to go without insulting people.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">read the WHOLE thread then not just one post....</font></p> <p><font color="#ffffff">If there are any errors with anything I've said in my post, I'll catch it tomorrow. It's really late, and I need to get some rest for work.</font></p> <p><font color="#ffffff">And just in case you can't catch it, the statements about full fabled gear and all masters is somewhat sarcastic. You seem to have had trouble with sarcasm in this, insulting the person. I'm sure that a person with all fabled and masters WOULD be able to T1 DPS. I'm also sure that it's not absolutely necessary to have all that. Once I get a bit further into KoS, and get quests like MoA and Wurmslayer done, who knows? Maybe I will be able to hit that high. And, there is one other Brigand in my guild, his debuffs are actually at a lesser level than mine, and he's hardly ever on. My guild seems to make it fine without either me or him several times. Maybe it's this Tarinax that needs to be toned down. I don't know.</font></p><p><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ff0000">fabled gear is relative, i have a lot of fabled gear, but thenagain, so did our ranger before he switched classes, if by t1 dps you mean good dps then sure fabled gear will help.</font></font></p><p><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ff0000">if by teir 1 you mean keep up with assasins/summoners/wizard then you're the one who needs a clue... haha</font></font></p><hr></blockquote></div>

[Riversideblues]

<div><blockquote><hr>Myrculus wrote:<div>Did you just completely miss his point?</div> <div> </div> <div>Your presentaiton of your issues is the cause of the reactions you received.</div> <div> </div> <div>Bah</div> <div> </div> <div>M</div><hr></blockquote>lol, that socio has to be the rudest [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] i've ever heard on the boards, expect tone when you come around saying "i have an awsome job and a wife, kids, dog, life, whatever and you don't so that's why im so great" bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and expect to be ripped into, the average raider has as much, if not more, of a life than any casual players i've been guilded with or run across durring this game, so don't give me bull about how we have no lives and expect us not to fire back "because you're bad"</div>

[Magus_Bl]

<P>Really this whole discussion is pointless.</P> <P>There are many other ways to debuff a mob other than having a brigand.  Will you have a way of debuffing a mob as efficiently as a brigand?  Probably not.  Our job is to debuff.  Other classes have the ability to debuff, but since it isn't their primary job, having a brigand on board allows them to focus on other things.</P> <P>Are you going to have another "debuff" class?  Nope... not seeing it.  Not unless they majorly overhaul some class to have debuffs that are parallel to ours, and have our debuffs overwrite each other.  Otherwise there will be either major stacking issues or severe dumbing down of mobs (with both this other class and a brigand in grp).  My confidence level in the devs ability to pull something like that off without ruining our class:  nonexistant.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[sociobiologi]

I should not have referred to my job. What I was trying to do was defend myself against Ishboozers insinuations of me being feeble minded, which of course my job is not evidence of the contrary to (I could for example have had a stroke recently). I know hardcore players who have good jobs and live happy lives (but they do by definition then not play 8hr+ a day). This is all besides the point. And River it is admirable that you so stalwartly defend your guild leader, if you read back you will see the reason for your cold reception however:Ishboozer is insulting both on a personal level and to the brigand community as a whole. Ishboozer should have the following motto "Once I thought I was not right, but I was wrong"   <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Lightomen]

<P>Most rangers do not want your debuffs.</P> <P>I think it would be a good idea for swashies and brigands to share similarities in their debuffs. An example, Swashie mainly debuff DPS with a minor in Stats and Brigands mainly debuff Stats with a minor in DPS. Add a little to both the classes and make both more appealing.</P> <P>Ishbu makes some very valid points and I have read this thread and thoroughly enjoyed Ishbu's and Agra's discussion. You may be in the 90% of non-raiding brigands who feel this will take away from viability as a character but that is no reason to disregard carte blanc his issue. Like it or not, he makes a very valid argument, and contrary to Socio's opinion tone cannot be conveyed in a forum.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Radigazt wrote:</P> <P>Blaaaaa Blaaaaa Blaaaa Bla Bla Bla</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Not Intending to derail and very interesting conversation, BUT;</P> <P>Here is a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing clue for you..  Rangers might be awesome on PvP, but they SUCK [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] everywhere else.  Ishbu was right when he said Rangers who lead parses are in guilds with slack assassins and conjurors.  Don't believe me, send a tell to Demlar on Antonia Bayle and ask him how he stacked up against a real assassin and conjuror when he tried to get into Dissolution.</P> <P>PvP consists of 4 servers, PvE consists of 17 servers, so PvP needs to dictate NOTHING to the rest of EQ2.  WORST idea Sony has ever had for all it's MMORPGs is caving into whining little [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]es who crave for PvP and when a Ranger one-shots them we see this crap.  They nerfed my True Shot in duels on EQoA and made it so any tank could kill me.  I left that game and, because there was no PvP, came to EQ2.  Only now we have whiners from PvP constantly trying to tell those of us who could care less about PvP how Rangers need to be nerfed more.  Here is a bit of advice, run with a Fury so they can see stealth and the ranger before they attack.</P><p>Message Edited by Lightomen on <span class=date_text>06-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:13 PM</span>

[ailen]

<P> </P> <P>retracted... just don't wanna get into this</P><p>Message Edited by morxus on <span class=date_text>06-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:12 PM</span>

[Magus_Bl]

<DIV>Request to OP:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please rename Dissolution - Brigand flame thread</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Lings]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Riversideblues wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lingsch wrote:<BR> <P>Ishboozor...</P> <P><note to self:come back tomorrow with correct information to make comment on the effects of hex dolls and poisons on classes' debuffing capabilities></P> <P>You have said several times that any Brigand who doesn't outDPS a ranger either sucks or is slacking. How can you even make that statement? Just because someone can't  compete with your elite brigands with full master is and all fabled gear, doesn't mean they suck. Doesn't mean they slack either. You can't make that statement. I can't do tier 1 DPS. I know several other brigands who can't do T1 DPS.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>here you have got it wrong, at the moment rangers have been nerfed into oblivion, and to the point that most rangers are playing oblivion, because sony is too dumb to balance out their class with assasins/wizards (warlocks need a big helping too).</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00ccff>I see rangers do pretty good. But they depend on player made items to supplement their DPS. Speaking with the Ranger in my guild, he says they have been nerfed quite badly, but that they still do pretty good with the right poisons and buffs. That was an example of an "error". That first part of the first sentence, and the rest, were written along completely different thoughtlines. Basically, I think that what I meant was more like "If a mid-quality brigand (not casual 1-hour a day, not hardcore 12-14 hours a day, with full fabled and whatnot) can't outDPS ANY ranger, say a really souped up Ranger, who really knows his class, doesn't mean they suck. I do all right for what I need to do. The issue there is rangers. They were way way way past what they were supposed to be doing, then SOE, being SOE, <STRONG>over</STRONG>nerfed them, past the point they should have been.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>i would say i do or come close to teir 1 dps depending on the type of fight or if our assasins/summoners/wizard are slacking.and i've played with very good rangers who will just never touch my dps becuase of the limitations of their class</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00ccff>I don't generally. And I see many other classes who are much more capable of out-DPSing rangers. I think that's a ranger problem.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>so my question to you is, how can YOU even make the statement? don't post on something if you are so un-informed</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000><FONT color=#00ccff>Where is your information? I don't see much more than your claims...</FONT></FONT></P> <P>Asking to give some other class a brigand's debuff is just like asking to give some other class a pet on par with the Conjuror or Necromancer tank pets (or mage pets or scout pets). They don't, some classes have semipets (Illusionists get their Personae, but from what I've read, that's not really the same). You guys more or less have a monopoly on pets. Sure, other people have some pets here and there (heck, even we brigands have a short duration dumbfire pet swarm), but none of them even come close to what yours can do.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>to be honest, they almost have, how many classes have swarm pets and dumbfires? shaman have a dog that can do 200-300 dps and avoid aoe's and buff the group, ishbu isn't asking for another class to get debilitate, but something small along those lines.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00ccff>I mentioned dumbfires. Dumbfires are not even the same. I said like a real pet, like the tank pet. They already have something small along those lines (the buffs)</FONT></P> <P>Also, I read somewhere that you said that the "real" brigand players who started their characters before LU13, did it to be a DPS class. I am a "real" brigand player who started before that. I don't recall what my skills were like pre13, but I did not pick Brigand to be DPS. Honestly, why would anyone pick a class just to be second best? If you're going to be DPS pick an assassin or a wizard.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>99% sure that wasn't ishbu</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00ccff>100% sure that <STRONG>was</STRONG> Ishbu.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00ccff>Referenece <SPAN><FONT color=#f0e1de>Reply </FONT><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=34&message.id=10833#M10833" target=_blank><FONT color=#ffcc33>98</FONT></A><FONT color=#f0e1de> of 187, </FONT><FONT color=#00ccff><FONT size=1>Paragraph 4 (not including the quote). And, to a lesser extent, and in a somewhat good comment I suppose, <SPAN><FONT color=#f0e1de>Reply </FONT><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=34&message.id=10837#M10837" target=_blank><FONT color=#ffcc33>101</FONT></A><FONT color=#f0e1de> of 186</FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00ccff>If you're wondering, those are on pages 4 and 5, respectively.</FONT></P> <P>Alot of what I've been seeing from you is insults. Insulting people and telling them that they're stupid or clueless is the <STRONG>ABSOLUTE WORST</STRONG> you could EVER use in a debate (similarly, forums). It's bad form and it just makes you look like a complete and total idiot. Resorting to insults because you can't come up with proof that you're right and those others are wrong?</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>you seem clueless since you're talking about a lot of things you must not know about, i know it sucks getting it pointed out though. ishbu has put in a LOT of proof, other people are insulting him, so i would insult back  (oops i did =D)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00ccff>He's the only one that I've seen pulling insults. And I haven't seen ANY proof from him. I've seen him make claims. But I've never seen the numbers to back them up. Show me the exact post (similar to the way that I just did, to prove you wrong), and I'll cave on that one.</FONT></P> <P>My biggest problem with you right now is you can't seem to go without insulting people.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>read the WHOLE thread then not just one post....</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00ccff>I fell asleep before I finished the whole thing. But I read about 80-90 % of it.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>If there are any errors with anything I've said in my post, I'll catch it tomorrow. It's really late, and I need to get some rest for work.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>And just in case you can't catch it, the statements about full fabled gear and all masters is somewhat sarcastic. You seem to have had trouble with sarcasm in this, insulting the person. I'm sure that a person with all fabled and masters WOULD be able to T1 DPS. I'm also sure that it's not absolutely necessary to have all that. Once I get a bit further into KoS, and get quests like MoA and Wurmslayer done, who knows? Maybe I will be able to hit that high. And, there is one other Brigand in my guild, his debuffs are actually at a lesser level than mine, and he's hardly ever on. My guild seems to make it fine without either me or him several times. Maybe it's this Tarinax that needs to be toned down. I don't know.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT color=#ff0000>fabled gear is relative, i have a lot of fabled gear, but thenagain, so did our ranger before he switched classes, if by t1 dps you mean good dps then sure fabled gear will help.</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT color=#ff0000>if by teir 1 you mean keep up with assasins/summoners/wizard then you're the one who needs a clue... haha</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT color=#ff0000><FONT color=#33ccff>By T1, I mean top DPS. Generally in my guild that's been SKs and Necros, and our Conjuror too. And there you go insulting me, and I haven't insulted anyone. I said that insulting other people instead of countering their points is a bad thing, and makes him look like a bad person to me. But I <STRONG>didn't</STRONG> say he <EM>was</EM> and idiot. I said that it made him <STRONG><EM>seem</EM></STRONG> like one.</FONT><BR></FONT></FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm Tier 2 DPS. I usually am. I can make it in the top 10 or so for my raid when I try, but I never top it. Even then I don't break 1000, but I'm not 70 yet, and I haven't upgraded my gear in a while. I have been getting alot of masters and adept IIIs though. If some Brigands can do all they can do and stick at T2 DPS, while others with uber gear are topping off at the higher end, it's not a problem with the class. I've gotten a bit off track here (it's a habit of mine).</P> <P>So lets get back to the main issue of giving Brigand level (or lesser) to other classes. The problem I see here, is depending on the class, say Ranger, you'd be turning that DPS intended class into a debuff class. I would say the best way to go about it (if this already hasn't been done, we don't have a monopoly on debuffs, we just have the best) would be to give debuffs to certain types. I think it's already that way, but I think right now I'll go and get some good info, then if the numbers show that there IS a problem, it can be brought to light, and fixed. However, I would really hope that wouldn't mean "nerf". and with SOE, it probably will.</P><p>Message Edited by Lingsch on <span class=date_text>06-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:12 PM</span>

[Riversideblues]

yeah welli have 2 copies of devitalize, how about that?<div></div>

[kyth]

    i like apple pie!<div></div>

[Gyilok]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Riversideblues wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>here you have got it wrong, at the moment rangers have been nerfed into oblivion, and to the point that most rangers are playing oblivion, because sony is too dumb to balance out their class with assasins/wizards (warlocks need a big helping too).</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>i think you got it wrong, rangers still can do t1 dps (1500dps+ on named mobs, if thats a nerf into oblivion, have it your way), but you probably got rid of yours before they could reach their max potential<BR>

[Magus_Bl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Riversideblues wrote:<BR>yeah well<BR><BR><BR><BR>i have 2 copies of devitalize, how about that?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>/shrug

[Riversideblues]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gyilok wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Riversideblues wrote: <div> <blockquote> <p><font color="#ff0000">here you have got it wrong, at the moment rangers have been nerfed into oblivion, and to the point that most rangers are playing oblivion, because sony is too dumb to balance out their class with assasins/wizards (warlocks need a big helping too).</font></p></blockquote></div> <hr> </blockquote>i think you got it wrong, rangers still can do t1 dps (1500dps+ on named mobs, if thats a nerf into oblivion, have it your way), but you probably got rid of yours before they could reach their max potential<hr></blockquote>he's a zerker in our guild now..... and doing 1500 because all of you temp buffs and 'big hit' spells are up isn't that good when you can't contibute anything else than pathfinding</div>

[Gyilok]

why do you use the assassins then? because they can top out a bit higher?

[Nitanyspirit]

<DIV>The "topping out" of assassins vs brigands when it comes to pure damage capability, assuming the same equipment, group, and debuffs present is statistically significant. </DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Nitanyspirit on <span class=date_text>06-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:48 AM</span>

[leafnin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gyilok wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Riversideblues wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>here you have got it wrong, at the moment rangers have been nerfed into oblivion, and to the point that most rangers are playing oblivion, because sony is too dumb to balance out their class with assasins/wizards (warlocks need a big helping too).</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>i think you got it wrong, rangers still can do t1 dps (1500dps+ on named mobs, if thats a nerf into oblivion, have it your way), but you probably got rid of yours before they could reach their max potential<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>What bow is he using..got to be at least a Wurm destroyer with best quality arrows he can buy(several plat).  I'm not sure I'd believe it if he's using Grizzlefazzle(Grizzlefang).  I'm sure it could be done but would take more then just a good group setup.  </P> <P> </P> <P>Falcon </P>

[Gyilok]

there are several fabled bows, 2 of them drop from the monolith mobs which can not even be called raid targets, there are nice legendary bows aswell, (in asent and lyceum) and the summoned arrows they get from the deathtoll dropped bows is the best they can get, not to mention its free

[leafnin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gyilok wrote:<BR> there are several fabled bows, 2 of them drop from the monolith mobs which can not even be called raid targets, there are nice legendary bows aswell, (in asent and lyceum) and the summoned arrows they get from the deathtoll dropped bows is the best they can get, not to mention its free<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Excately <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I won't get too much into the issue, but when the focus for Rangers has been switched from procs to autoattack DR matters much more for us.  Debuffs wouldn't help the class much since we're limited by the itemization of bows our top end is limited.  Debuffs would also take focus away from what our real job would be Debuff or DPS? We'd become another hybrid and hybrids go one of two routes.  Overpowered, been there done that still got the hate mail.  Unemployed, currently I am here and no I will not bring you back a T-shirt.  I can look at certain classes and know what their jobs are.  Some bring alittle of something else but still have a defined role it's the murky ones that run one of the two tracks listed above.  I hope you keep your role in a raid it's not fun when you need certain gear to do it.</P> <P> </P> <P>Falcon  </P>

[Gyilok]

<P>all need certain gear to do their role in raid, dont think that an assassin with all treasured gear will be the top dps worldwide, dont think that a tank in treasured armor will tank the hardest encounters of the proper tier, dont think that a healer without resists will be efficient when hes gotta spend more time healing himself then the rest of the group and so on</P> <P>its a little harsh example but in t7 people really cant complain about selection of decent bows, after what we had in t6 where you could only see people with ironwood, and 1-5 pieces of darkfury bows/server</P>

[Jay]

<P>Wow, you guys really let random ppl's posts get under your skin! I wouldn't sweat Ish or anyone else's thoughts on your class. I don't particularly disagree with him myself, he has some very valid points, but if you don't like what he's saying... don't read it. I know it's hard not to defend your class when it seems like someone's calling for a nerf (which he isn't) but he's just another player, that's all. He doesn't work for Sony, he can't even equip or attune the Nerf Bat. It's just words on a screen, really.</P> <P>I'm kinda flattered that people think rangers need some help. That's sweet of ya! We could use...something. Some DPS, more / better bows, better CAs, better self-buffs, something like that. We're not crippled, but I don't think I can disagree with the statement that an equally geared and played brigand will outdamage a comparable ranger. That's just the way it is right now, I don't bear the brigands any ill-will for it; the nerf bat hit us hard, and we went from WAY overpowered to a bit underpowered. Oh well, that's how it goes in EQ2, it's a little disappointing but it doesn't really ruin the fun for me.</P> <P>But yeah, I think it was Agra that said it - the problems are about mechanics, not other classes. I don't want to take a brigand's role away from them, I just want to be able to fill MY role - ranged DPS - better than the mechanics currently allow me to. But even so, it just means we rangers have to work a lot harder than we did before. The sun will still rise tomorrow if we're not at the top of the parses.</P>

[Reinward]

<DIV>hey guys , I'm new to be a brigand .  1H or DW is not the new topic .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but this skill "Dauntless Advance(69)"  from  <A href="http://the.rogue.online.fr/" target=_blank>http://the.rogue.online.fr</A> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It does the proc by melee attack . My question is that dw get more chance to proc ??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ps . I know 1H has more chance to proc by more delay time. But I think it's the weapon's proc, not skill .....right ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My brigand is lv 23 now ,</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Reinwarden on <span class=date_text>06-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:15 PM</span>

[leafnin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gyilok wrote:<BR> <P>all need certain gear to do their role in raid, dont think that an assassin with all treasured gear will be the top dps worldwide, dont think that a tank in treasured armor will tank the hardest encounters of the proper tier, dont think that a healer without resists will be efficient when hes gotta spend more time healing himself then the rest of the group and so on</P> <P>its a little harsh example but in t7 people really cant complain about selection of decent bows, after what we had in t6 where you could only see people with ironwood, and 1-5 pieces of darkfury bows/server</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I agree completely everyone needs good gear to raid.  Some can get by for less but must upgrade certain key skills (Debilitate line for example).  I'm glad they upped the selection of bows and I'll leave the argument over numbers or mobs that do drop these bows alone as it's better left to the Ranger boards <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. I'll just finish with certain classes right now have the potential to be tiers higher then they were listed as which is fine as I'm guessing these tiers were based off an average equiped with Adept one skilled character.  With the right gear they could and do rank higher.</P> <P> </P> <P>Falcon</P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Radigazt]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lightomen wrote:<BR> <P>Waaaaaaahhhhhh.  Me want Rangers uber!</P> <P>Message Edited by Lightomen on <SPAN class=date_text>06-07-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>03:13 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>My oh my, what a whiner you are.  First you misquote my post without citing any of my points ... right back at ya llama.  </P> <P>Then you have the audacity to claim "Rangers might be awesome on PvP, but they SUCK [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] everywhere else."  Do you think for a second that anyone believes that drivel?  You're trying to say that staying at range doing mage-like DPS while wearing chain armor, having track, evac, roots, invisibility, etc. is sucking?  Honestly, posters like you are the problem, you want an I-win button.  Rangers are the most overpowered PvP cass in the game, great soloers in PvE, and always wanted in groups.  Until you admit that, you'll never be able to write a convincing argument.  If your argument is that Rangers aren't as good as Assassin in t7 raids ... well that's an awfully small portion of the game, but an important one, which can be remedied by better damage rating bows.  Perhaps what might make you happy is a Bow with a better Damage Rating so your autoattack parses higher.  </P><p>Message Edited by Radigazt on <span class=date_text>06-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:57 AM</span>

[Mialia]

I edited the name of my "joke posting" so it fits more with the other posts's flavour.I dont think this thread can go back to the original topic i choosed (brigand solo DPS) because people prefer flaming and talking about raidsI think i'll come back in a few days, because I can have fun anytime reading this. If the topic changes too much, feel free to PM so i can change it again.<div></div>

[kyth]

    or is this an efffort to revive a thread that finially died?<div></div>

[Tokam]

<P>*lays thread down*</P> <P>*beats thread with stick*</P> <P>*checks pulse*</P> <P>*beats thread some more*</P>