LU24 Changes. We loose DPS and Control. What do we get as replacement?

[sociobiologi]

<DIV>My main (and only char) is a lv70 brigand. I was uber for a short while in DOF where i did 1-2k dps on raids. Now I do around 500-800 dps. We are placed securely at tier2 in the DPS hierarchy where we should be (I can mention a lot of classes who are tier 2 or 1 while they should be tier 4 or 5). Dispatch still works and is my main raiding asset. That CA alone is the envy of many and the reason brigands are viewed as "too good" by many. Dispatch is great raid utility. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can however not see why we need a DPS nerf on our ranged CA and Subdue line. Its not like brigands are topping the bigh hit charts due to any of those skills. We are also not doing excess dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>About the crowd control aspect: I applaud the enchanter raid fix. Enchanters have in my experience always been wanted (more than brigands) in groups. They (at least coercers) also solo better. Anyway I still like that they are seperating the classes more in terms of skills. So I can live with loosing some stun abilities. But only if we get something else to compensate for our loss. Preferably more of something we specialize in, as debuffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We lost the value of team INVIS in DOF. There we gained STUNS as replacement. In KOS we loose STUNS and gain????</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regards, Mongo lv 70 Halfling Brigand, 63 Provisioner of Guk </DIV>

[Demoniac]

<DIV>not sure...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but our brigand is doing tons of dps than the other class. I think ( I think, personally, no offense to any brigand ), I think the brigand class is a little bit overpowerful.  point 1, they never bother with AE. point2. they doing the same dps as an assassin does like 1k-1.2k mostly ( prismatic III weapon + lord vyemm tooth ( whatever it's called )  ) point 3. brigand actually it's a debuff class, it's the best melee debuff class. they shouldn't do as much as insane damage like an assassin. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I knew every class has it own weekness. I guess you guys have tons of hate too. Question 1, why did a brigand never get aggro like warlock or wizard? Question 2, can a brigand use poison as much as an assassin does? Question 3, how long does dispatch last? and reuse timer??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is a very powerful class. I think it's the most powerful melee class in the game.</DIV>

[ag]

The numbers don't reflect your presumptions.There are so many variables that making sweeping generalizations on epic content is extremely dangerous. Ask one Brigand if they can break 800DPS and they'll say "No, that's a guaranteed death" because of their group makeup. Ask another, and they'll say, of course 800DPS is no problem, I have x/y/z class in my group ensuring I never get aggro, and ensuring i have 100% haste and 100% DPS + procs on me. Epic encounters last 2 minutes, on average. (some as little as one minute, some as long as 8 minutes)For heroic content, all the variables are completely out the window because with any reasonable group you can kill any heroic encounter in 15 seconds or less. How can you say one class is so vastly better than another when there's not even enough time to cast all your debuffs during the fight?Wizards, Rangers and Assassins can remove somewhere between 30-50% of a heroic mobs hit points in one hit. Does that make them better than Brigands? Sometimes. We can remove alot of mitigation (both physical and magical) from targets so everyone else can make big hits. Does that make us better than Wizards, Rangers, and Assassins? Sometimes.But I'll tell you this, I'm not owning up 71^^^ named heroics these days, no sir. I'm not solo'ing epics, nor am I one shot killing green heroics at any level.Perception is naturally skewed towards personal selfishness. I think Brigands need some work, mostly because I've seen them from the start and the outstanding bugs freaking annoy the Brell out of me. Are we overpowered? In what way? Because we help everyone else do more damage? Because AFTER the mob is debuffed we can do reasonable damage? If performing my <b>assigned</b> role in a game is overpowered, I guess Brigands are overpowered. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />There is no "most powerful" class in EQ2. It's all situational and prone to personal perception, selfish bias, and class envy. I'm guilty of it, and so is everyone else.Or put another way, try playing a Brigand without their debuffs (not even one) and tell me how powerful we are. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Oh.... change of opinion? Don't be afraid, it won't hurt to change your mind.

[Goonch]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Demoniac wrote:<BR> <DIV>not sure...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but our brigand is doing tons of dps than the other class. I think ( I think, personally, no offense to any brigand ), I think the brigand class is a little bit overpowerful.  point 1, they never bother with AE. point2. they doing the same dps as an assassin does like 1k-1.2k mostly ( prismatic III weapon + lord vyemm tooth ( whatever it's called )  ) point 3. brigand actually it's a debuff class, it's the best melee debuff class. they shouldn't do as much as insane damage like an assassin. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I knew every class has it own weekness. I guess you guys have tons of hate too. Question 1, why did a brigand never get aggro like warlock or wizard? Question 2, can a brigand use poison as much as an assassin does? Question 3, how long does dispatch last? and reuse timer??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is a very powerful class. I think it's the most powerful melee class in the game.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well how to start.  Classes that should be doing more dps than your brigand are as follows 1) Summoners 2) Predators 3) Swashies 4) Sorcerers.  I put out usually 1000 dps or so these days and all the classes I just mentioned should average at least 1200 or more on raids.  There is no reason your assassin should do the same or less dps than a brigand.  He/she needs to fine tune their skills.</P> <P>I guess I just don't understand how you call us overpowered when you don't even know the answers to the questions you've asked.   But I'll answer them none the less.  </P> <P>1)  Brigands get much more aggro than a wizzie or a warlock if they know what they are doing, a good brigand just doesn't keep it.</P> <P>2)  Rogues and Predators both can have a debuff, damage, and misc poison on at all times.  However the assassin burns through more poison because he can give it to his allies.</P> <P>3)  Dispatch is 13sec duration and a 1 minute recast.</P> <P>The changes that are coming are not necessary.  It basically castrates the soloing brigand.  It takes away one of our defining line of spells we've had since the game started.  Its not overpowered, it doesn't work on raid mobs.  I guess I could go on and on but it really wouldn't be worth it.  </P>

[Zodi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Demoniac wrote:<BR> <DIV>not sure...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but our brigand is doing tons of dps than the other class. I think ( I think, personally, no offense to any brigand ), I think the brigand class is a little bit overpowerful.  point 1, they never bother with AE. point2. they doing the same dps as an assassin does like 1k-1.2k mostly ( prismatic III weapon + lord vyemm tooth ( whatever it's called )  ) point 3. brigand actually it's a debuff class, it's the best melee debuff class. they shouldn't do as much as insane damage like an assassin. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I knew every class has it own weekness. I guess you guys have tons of hate too. Question 1, why did a brigand never get aggro like warlock or wizard? Question 2, can a brigand use poison as much as an assassin does? Question 3, how long does dispatch last? and reuse timer??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is a very powerful class. I think it's the most powerful melee class in the game.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Brigands are awesome. I would love to trade my level 70 guardian for a level 70 brigand. Crushbone server. I dont care how much they nerf them I would trade my guardian anytime</P> <P>Thyron 70-guardian (Crushbone)<BR></P>

[Myrcul]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Demoniac wrote:<BR> <DIV>not sure...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but our brigand is doing tons of dps than the other class. I think ( I think, personally, no offense to any brigand ), I think the brigand class is a little bit overpowerful.  point 1, they never bother with AE. point2. they doing the same dps as an assassin does like 1k-1.2k mostly ( prismatic III weapon + lord vyemm tooth ( whatever it's called )  ) point 3. brigand actually it's a debuff class, it's the best melee debuff class. they shouldn't do as much as insane damage like an assassin. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I knew every class has it own weekness. I guess you guys have tons of hate too. Question 1, why did a brigand never get aggro like warlock or wizard? Question 2, can a brigand use poison as much as an assassin does? Question 3, how long does dispatch last? and reuse timer??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is a very powerful class. I think it's the most powerful melee class in the game.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>'Our Brigand'  Meaning, the guy he plays with/gal he plays with, anecdotally gets really good DPS numbers.  Thus, any change to the class is justified because he has some sort of class envy, but can't justify it any other way.</P> <P> </P> <P>Question 1 - I get aggro ALL THE TIME, far more than the wizard/warlock.  And when they do get it (because I have had to be managing my own hate gain and they decided to go all Rambo) I will unload on the mob and I can generally pull hate OFF of the mage types, and will sacrifice myself for them because my dps isn't as necessary as theirs and they can do much more in the same amount of time as me but they fall down harder than I do and need help getting back up much more than I do.   In other words.. its better the Brigand dies then the Casters so this brigand will sacrifice himself for the Mages.   If I can pull hate off of them, (because I was managing my own to begin with that's why I didn;t already have it) faster than the tanks, then you know that I could pull hate fast if I needed it in a fight.</P> <P>I can pull aggro like no ones business if I desire it.   Generally I will do so during fights all the time when grouping to give the tank/healers a rest as the last few mobs I can handle 'tanking' myself with my avoidance and stunning abilities so they can catch the tank up so we can move right into another encounter right away and maximise exp over time.</P> <P>Question 2 - Already answered, but I'll answer as well.  Can we use poison as much as an Assassin does?  Well first off, what sort of stupid question is that?  We can put poison on our weapons exactly the same way they can, as can swashies, as can rangers. </P> <P>Question #3 -Also already answered, but you need help understanding the class so I'll answer as well.</P> <P><STRONG>Dispatch lasts 13 seconds once used.   It has a re-use timer of 1 minute.</STRONG> </P> <P> </P> <P>If we are the best class, and we know that THOUSANDS of people use various programs to measure DPS and output and share information on forums such as these, share raid tactics, etc.  Can you explain then.. why as the 'BEST MELE CLASS IN THE GAME' according to your trolling, nerf happy self, is the LEAST POPULATED of all classes?</P> <P>In games such as this, at the 'high end' the players come to know what classes are best and worst and give the most bang for the buck return for their time.   This class is NOT the Brigand.  I LOVE my brigand and enjoy playing the class, but its not the BEST class out there, and the numbers demonstrate this.</P> <P>Losing the DPS and Control isn't going to do a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] thing to fix the classes that need help.   They aren't going to benefit from these changes to Brigands.   Brigands on the other hand are going to suffer greatly in small group/group/solo-ability because of these changes.</P> <P>They are a bad idea, and time will bear this out.  Sony will do their thing, like EVERY mmo company seemingly does.. they go ahead and make sweeping changes because they think they understand things better than the players, and then YEARS LATER, they are still correcting the mistakes they made.  Leaving the Brigand class as is is not a bad thing. The class is not over performing, its not as population skewed as Rangers were when they were able to completely dominate DPS, Brigands continue to be the lowest population class in the game and second lowest population at level 70.  </P> <P>That tends to indicate we're NOT overpowered.</P> <P>So take your nerf cries and justifications elsewhere please because its OBVIOUS you do not understand the class if you are asking idiot questions like 'how come we don't get aggro like other classes' and 'whats the stats on our ability'  when A) EVERY brigand knows they are walking a fine line with Aggro in every fight, and can gain it at will and B) Its a very simple matter to look up the stats of a class' skills on any number of publicly available web sites.  Since you are unwilling/unable to do this.. I am HARDLY confident you really have any sort of clue about how MY class works.</P> <P>Myrculus the cranky rat.</P>

[Shidonya]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Demoniac wrote:<BR> <DIV>not sure...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but our brigand is doing tons of dps than the other class. I think ( I think, personally, no offense to any brigand ), I think the brigand class is a little bit overpowerful.  point 1, they never bother with AE. point2. they doing the same dps as an assassin does like 1k-1.2k mostly ( prismatic III weapon + lord vyemm tooth ( whatever it's called )  ) point 3. brigand actually it's a debuff class, it's the best melee debuff class. they shouldn't do as much as insane damage like an assassin.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I knew every class has it own weekness. I guess you guys have tons of hate too. Question 1, why did a brigand never get aggro like warlock or wizard? Question 2, can a brigand use poison as much as an assassin does? Question 3, how long does dispatch last? and reuse timer??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is a very powerful class. I think it's the most powerful melee class in the game.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Ok your point 1 has been exhausted but I'll respond I have one ranged attack I'm suppose to be inside. If aoe avoiding is a problem to you then give me more ranged attacks that debuff and I'll sit back like teh worlock and wizard and do my job there until then have a coke and a smile and leave it. I can't help it if the only way to do my job in hand to hand.</P> <P>Point 2 if the assassin works with the brigand then he will easily outdo a brig. Yes we have the advantage of knowing when we debuffed but I don't do insane dps not like it is something I worry about. I can care less who does more damage me or him as long as the mob dies and we get the loot.</P> <P>Point 3 if we don't debuff we don't do that kind of damage plain and simple if the assassin could debuff his damage would be insane. Again if the assassin or (insert any class) will work together with the brigand then the other dps class will benifit from our debuffs and out dps us accordingly.</P> <P>Hate as a weakness is an understatement to have our coveted aoe resistance we have to gain 14% hate does a warlock or wizard standing outside of aoe range get a 14% hate gain because they are outside of aoe range? No.</P> <P>Question 1. I am the highest agro magnent in raid regardless of group setup if tank dies I'm next no wizzy no worlock no assassin and yet I am T2 dps.</P> <P>Question 2. Yes we use poison</P> <P>Question 3. Answered above wooo somebody get the nerf bat ready a whole whopping 13 seconds every minute.</P> <P>Powerful class yes, most powerful melee class? whatever, tackle a monk.</P> <P>Besides I can't kill a ^^^ heroic blue or higher mob in 15 seconds and not get scratched like some classes I know and trust me this class can do it easily and faster than a group of 6 can. I hear the bragging from it daily as I watch them do it, I don't mention the class cause I don't want to cause a nerf guess I'm too nice a guy. But until I can clear SoS solo like this class then don't talk to me about overpowered.</P>

[Crimson Dragon]

we gain double up with 61+ combat arts.that's it?that's it.<div></div>

[Crimson Dragon]

<div><blockquote><hr>Demoniac wrote:<div>not sure...</div> <div> </div> <div>but our brigand is doing tons of dps than the other class. I think ( I think, personally, no offense to any brigand ), I think the brigand class is a little bit overpowerful.  point 1, they never bother with AE. point2. they doing the same dps as an assassin does like 1k-1.2k mostly ( prismatic III weapon + lord vyemm tooth ( whatever it's called )  ) point 3. brigand actually it's a debuff class, it's the best melee debuff class. they shouldn't do as much as insane damage like an assassin. </div> <div> </div> <div>I knew every class has it own weekness. I guess you guys have tons of hate too. Question 1, why did a brigand never get aggro like warlock or wizard? Question 2, can a brigand use poison as much as an assassin does? Question 3, how long does dispatch last? and reuse timer??</div> <div> </div> <div>This is a very powerful class. I think it's the most powerful melee class in the game.</div><hr></blockquote>i think my fellow brigand covered it pretty well... but i can't resist.1. not everyone has the qeynos cutlass and lord vyemm's tooth.2. we don't have the hate control that others have for a reason. it's our check. we generate a lot of hate. there's a reason we don't get amends unless the paladin is tanking.3. we have a good rotation of decent damage hits. after we cycle debuffs, we can pop out several thousand damage in a few seconds. however, most of our high damage attacks are on 60 second recast timers and a few are as low as 30 seconds. the point is, we don't get something that hits like ice comet every 30 seconds. we have to chain abilities and use double up every 60 seconds to generate any "big hits". that's usually not a good idea unless you're in the "burn" phase of raids or whatever because these combinations tend to pull hate like rescue for fighters.</div>

[Magus_Bl]

<DIV>I love how regardless of the circumstances, whenever class x says "Hey why are we getting this nerfed?", class y comes back and says "Duh!  It's because you are overpowered!"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So guardian Crumble, zerker and pally stuns, dirge timers, ranger roots and ranges, healer recast timers.. and so on.. are all being nerfed because all of these classes are overpowered?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let's try again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Gyilok]

they will nerf every form of root-snare-stun-stifle of every class, doesnt really hurt brigands more then others, but if double up gonna work with t7 skills im already feeling better

[Atrocity]

Agra is dead on that the amount of dps a brigand is doing is heavily dependant on the group makeup and the buffs applied.  When people  talk about doing over 1k dps in a fight I will bet all the plat I have that they are very nicely buffed up and that any swashie or assassin who is equally buffed will out dps us. My feeling about the nerfs is that they are related to PvP.  I know that spells can be adjusted separately for pvp but in this case I think SoE is just too lazy or that the mechanics don't really allow them to adjust abilities as individually as they'd like.  The only way in which these nerfs make any sense is in the context of PvP.  Both our ranged attack and Subdue lines are very dangerous when used against other players.  This is really the only situation in which they make that big of a difference.  Brigs aren't the ones going around soloing ^^^ blue or higher heroic mobs and as Agra said in a group situation any mob is dead so fast nothing makes that big of a difference. Personally I don't think it will be a huge loss but it just gets agravating to continually have our abilities tweaked this far into the game.  We're really not broken or overpowered.  Pls go wory about something else. <div></div>

[Kegofbud]

I SO wanted to reply to the one post as I read down, only to find everyone else already having done so. I guess all that's left is throwing in a random word, like: Jelly.

[kyth]

 We will see how bad this "nerf" hits us.  Honestly though look at the last 2 major "nerfs" to brigands.  Most recently we had the Double attack + Proc nerf.  Ok that did hurt the DPS numbers but really it was needed.  Only other thing they could have done is get t1 dps classes to do 2500dps on a constant basis.  Beginings of KoS we had the Amazing Reflexes nerf.  Now that one did not go over well at all.  What happened though was it got chaged back to its former useful form.  At this point i think brigands have gotten less drastic nerfs then other classes.  We will still pwn with out a doubt.<div></div>

[Carna]

<DIV>I will always return to the point on these "I think class X is overpowered" that if Brigands are overpowered they are the least played overpowered class in the entire history of MMORPGs and unlikely to be challenged in any future games as the least popular overpowered class to actually play.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This game has managed to decend to the point where if any class does something novel or that isn't mediocre, they are "overpowered".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I like Brigands, I think they're great. So I play a Brigand. I also like Rangers and Swashbucklers... I play those too... here's a hint, if you think Brigands are so absolutely fantastic as to be overpowered, why isn't one of your alts a Brigand?... I'd swap my Class X for a Brigand in a heatbeat!... You have a Brigand alt you're levelling up?... No... Pratt.</DIV>

[Gn]

<P>I suspect that "Brigand: Double Up - Double Up list auto-adjusts to use abilities appropriate to the brigand's level." is a bug fix and not something meant to throw us a bone.</P> <P>Mentor a level 15 player.  Fight.  Attack mob with a double up'able skill.  Hit double up.  Note damage as mob dies horribly.</P> <P>I believe this is the reason for the removal of our AE from Double Up as well as the reason for this "improvement".  Hopefully, they'll remember why they removed our AE line and will put it back after they fix the double up scaling.  I have a copper (sorry, spent all my cash on masters) that says our AE + Double Up won't be in LU24.</P> <P>G nef</P> <P>p.s. overpowered ?  uh huh, right.  T7 brigs are so few in number that there are multiple copies of many masters sitting on Kithicor.  I find it humorous seeing all the brig class hats for sale on the broker.  There are only so few brigs to buy the things.  Sell 'em before every brig has one.  Want to judge class power?  Examine each class for the number of NEW L70 players over time.</P><p>Message Edited by Gnef on <span class=date_text>05-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:19 PM</span>

[Kodros]

There are more brig hats on sale at the broker just because they aren't that great to begin with.  Also, are you telling me that you would spend days and days playing a class that you don't enjoy just because it's overpowered?  People play classes that they enjoy.  People enjoy playing Rangers so there are a lot of them.  The same thing happened in EQ1 also.  Rogues were very powerful in EQ1 and yet they were rare.  It's just a playstyle that the majority of people don't like or there is another playstyle that the majority of the people like to play better.  <div></div>

[verydanger]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gnef wrote:<div></div> <div></div><p>Want to judge class power?  Examine each class for the number of NEW L70 players over time.</p><hr></blockquote>This seems to be the automated response on these boards to whatever change is made to our class, and I must say I dont get it AT ALL. Scout has pretty much been the least popular archetype since launch, and Qeynos side has always outnumbered Freeport side greatly. Then you have a class-concept like Assasin which always will draw a bigger crowd than 'Brigand', and it should become pretty evident why Brigands are, always have been and likely always will be low in numbers. Does this mean we have been brutally underpowered since launch? That we should be untouchable by any negative changes? You know, not everybody makes their choice of class based solely on whats FoTM at the time. Most people are actually able to enjoy the game without playing 'the most powerful class'.Brigand is a rare choice, we all know this by now. Can we please find a new angle on things here, this is getting so old...</div>

[Crimson Dragon]

while both of the previous two poster have good points, and i agree that you should choose a class based on how fun it is for you.... i've encountered a lot of poeple who only play their class because it's "uber". sad to say.... but those players are out there.<div></div>

[Lings]

<P>I coulda sworn I replied to this thread... I guess I was so tired that I forgot to hit the "Submit Post" button and then fell asleep. So, I will have to catch up.</P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Demoniac wrote:<BR> <DIV>not sure...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but our brigand is doing tons of dps than the other class. I think ( I think, personally, no offense to any brigand ), I think the brigand class is a little bit overpowerful.  point 1, they never bother with AE. point2. they doing the same dps as an assassin does like 1k-1.2k mostly ( prismatic III weapon + lord vyemm tooth ( whatever it's called )  ) point 3. brigand actually it's a debuff class, it's the best melee debuff class. they shouldn't do as much as insane damage like an assassin.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00ccff>... Well, that's not a *class* problem, that's a *weapon* problem. I actually asked around, and apparently, on the topic of a Brigand with Pris 3 and Vyemm's Fang out-damaging an Assassin "That'll do it". Apparently, that thing is really powerful. And anyway, why shouldn't a Brigand be able to outdamage an assassin if he works hard enough? They said it themselves in that whole "DPS Tiers" thing that a well-played class could move up a tier or 2.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I knew every class has it own weekness. I guess you guys have tons of hate too. Question 1, why did a brigand never get aggro like warlock or wizard? Question 2, can a brigand use poison as much as an assassin does? Question 3, how long does dispatch last? and reuse timer??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00ccff> You don't have a Brig, I assume, and if this guy is the best sample you have, then you have no idea what you are talking about at all.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00ccff>1. We DO. There isn't a tank alive (unless they're 5 or 6 levels above and have all master taunts) who can keep aggro off me when I use Debilitate + Dispatch + Double Up. Good brigand know how to get aggro off of them too. Between the Befuddle Adversaries line, the Evasion line, the Beseech for Mercy line, and the Hideaway line, we can lose aggro pretty darn quick as well. One of those deaggro poisons I was using helps too, which brings me to:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00ccff>2. Yeah, of course we can, why not? Assassins do get several poison related skills that we don't but that's their thing.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00ccff>3. OK. All you need to know about Dispatch:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00ccff>At level 66, </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00ccff>Power 113</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00ccff>Casting 0.5</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00ccff>Recovery 0.5</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00ccff>Recast Time 1 minute</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00ccff>Duration: 13 Seconds</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00ccff>Damage and Debuffs:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00ccff>Apprentice II: Coming Soon</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00ccff>Apprentice III: Coming Soon</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00ccff>Apprentice IV: Coming Soon</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00ccff>Adept I: Decreases Mitigation to all types of damage by 2640 (not transcribing this word for word, it'd take too long) Inflicts 496 - 827 melee damage</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00ccff>Adept III: Decreases Mitigation to all types of damage by 3080, Inflicts 579 - 965 melee damage</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00ccff>Master I: Decreases Mitigation to all types of damage by 3520, Inflicts 661 - 1102 melee damage.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00ccff>Our other attacks hardly even break 1,000. Our only real "Powerful" attack is Subterfuge, which at Master II deals 2299 - 3832 IF YOU RECEIVE DAMAGE FROM A MELEE MELEE, which means it's useless except for soloing, and maybe if you try to off tank. And pretty much our only attack that is garunteed a hit around 1,000, Restrain, is being nerfed.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is a very powerful class. I think it's the most powerful melee class in the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00ccff>Yeah, we are. That's why we're always the top on raid DPS parsers, and why we can hit for 15,000. Oh... wait... that's not us.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Really, no offense, but you have NO idea what you're talking about.<BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Carnagh wrote:<BR> <DIV>I will always return to the point on these "I think class X is overpowered" that if Brigands are overpowered they are the least played overpowered class in the entire history of MMORPGs and unlikely to be challenged in any future games as the least popular overpowered class to actually play.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00ccff>Yup, lol, if you asked me what the most powerful classes in the game were, I'd say summoners and brawlers, especially bruisers. Lately they've been popping up in much greater numbers, and alway bragging about how awesome and uber they are. That's just my opinion on that however. But, I do agree with you: If we are overpowered, we are the least popular overpowered class in the history of MMOs.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This game has managed to decend to the point where if any class does something novel or that isn't mediocre, they are "overpowered".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00ccff>*sigh* I wish it weren't true, but it is.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I like Brigands, I think they're great. So I play a Brigand. I also like Rangers and Swashbucklers... I play those too... here's a hint, if you think Brigands are so absolutely fantastic as to be overpowered, why isn't one of your alts a Brigand?... I'd swap my Class X for a Brigand in a heatbeat!... You have a Brigand alt you're levelling up?... No... Pratt.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00ccff>Again, agreed. I like Necromancers (no, not the whole FotM thing, I just like the idea), I have a Necromancer.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>sociobiologist wrote:</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>My main (and only char) is a lv70 brigand. I was uber for a short while in DOF where i did 1-2k dps on raids. Now I do around 500-800 dps. We are placed securely at tier2 in the DPS hierarchy where we should be (I can mention a lot of classes who are tier 2 or 1 while they should be tier 4 or 5). Dispatch still works and is my main raiding asset. That CA alone is the envy of many and the reason brigands are viewed as "too good" by many. Dispatch is great raid utility.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00ccff>Umm... Yeah, Dispatch is the reason that people complain we are immune to AoEs. It is a great ability. But it's no more overpowered than Assassinate, Decapitate, or the Wizzies good spells.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can however not see why we need a DPS nerf on our ranged CA and Subdue line. Its not like brigands are topping the bigh hit charts due to any of those skills. We are also not doing excess dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00ccff>I'd agree with that. It's a shame, really.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>About the crowd control aspect: I applaud the enchanter raid fix. Enchanters have in my experience always been wanted (more than brigands) in groups. They (at least coercers) also solo better. Anyway I still like that they are seperating the classes more in terms of skills. So I can live with loosing some stun abilities. But only if we get something else to compensate for our loss. Preferably more of something we specialize in, as debuffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00ccff>Would love that. I love my role as a Brigand. I played Brigand before it was anything special (date of creation: Wednesday, January 5, 2005), back when we were 'gimped'... At least, that's what every potential Pick Up Group told me when they were rejecting me for their last spot. I generally ended up leading my own groups. Well, now is a different matter, we are actually pretty decent. And people see our nice skills that actually make us worthwhile, and say "OMG! WHY CAN'T I DO THAT!?!?! NERF!!! NERF!!! NERF!!!"</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We lost the value of team INVIS in DOF. There we gained STUNS as replacement. In KOS we loose STUNS and gain????</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00ccff>Em... Didn't we always have the Blackjack and Dirty Blow lines? I took a big break from about March to about June of last year and .... I don't remember.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regards, Mongo lv 70 Halfling Brigand, 63 Provisioner of Guk </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Well, anyway there's alot to say on these topics, and I hate it when people make generalizations about a class based on ONE <STRONG>SINGLE </STRONG>toon.<BR></P>

[hoop]

<P>As much as i dont liek brigands, mainly cuz they are so much better than thier rouge counterpart which i play, i still wont say they are the most over powered melle class in the game that belongs to zerkers, if you have a decent one in ur guild ull know y. I think your second or third cant decide between brigs or brusiers. </P> <P>Just dont down play how good ur class is thou. that dsnt fly anymore, ohh look nobody plays our class we suck right.</P> <P>hoopdee</P> <P> </P>

[Gn]

<DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Gnef on <span class=date_text>05-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:49 PM</span>

[Lings]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> hoopde wrote:<BR> <P>As much as i dont liek brigands, mainly cuz they are so much better than thier rouge counterpart which i play, i still wont say they are the most over powered melle class in the game that belongs to zerkers, if you have a decent one in ur guild ull know y. I think your second or third cant decide between brigs or brusiers.</P> <P>Just dont down play how good ur class is thou. that dsnt fly anymore, ohh look nobody plays our class we suck right.</P> <P>hoopdee<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>You think we are second or third in popularity or most overpowerful melee? I think I can disprove both.</P> <P>Total World Population of All Classes (courtesy of <A href="http://www.eq2census.com/" target=_blank>http://www.eq2census.com/</A>) = 1348795</P> <P>Guardian = 76046 (5.6%)</P> <P>Berserker = 84456 (6.25%)</P> <P>Monk = 78817 (5.8%)</P> <P>Bruiser = 44326 (3.2%)</P> <P>Shadowknight = 69337 (5.1%)</P> <P>Paladin = 78979 (5.85%)</P> <P>Templar = 57982 (4.3%)</P> <P>Inquisitor = 33119 (2.4%)</P> <P>Warden = 47549 (3.5%)</P> <P>Fury = 65402 (4.8%)</P> <P>Mystic = 39422 (2.9%)</P> <P>Defiler = 29006 (2.15%)</P> <P>Wizard = 97685 (7.24%)</P> <P>Warlock = 53598 (3.97%)</P> <P>Illusionist = 37891 (2.8%)</P> <P>Coercer = 26200 (1.94%)</P> <P>Conjuror = 69898 (5.1%)</P> <P>Necromancer = 77237 (5.7%)</P> <P><EM>Swashbuckler = 45027 (3.3%)</EM></P> <P><STRONG>Brigand = 25945 (1.9%)</STRONG></P> <P>Troubador = 34097 (2.5%)</P> <P>Dirge = 37232 (2.7%)</P> <P>Ranger = 80763 (5.98%)</P> <P>Assassin = 58781 (4.35%)</P> <P>Now.</P> <P>Brigands highest damage attack = Subterfuge which, at master ii does something near 2000 - 4000 damage IF YOU ARE STRUCK BY A MELEE WEAPON while you are lying on the ground for 10 seconds with your defenses severely lowered.</P> <P>Assassins highest damage attack = Decaptitate which linked from EQ2IDB (and thus having a red picture, not representative of what it would be for someone who could use it) 6000 - 10000, only requirement is to be stealthed (given it has a long recast timer, but that is offset in Subterfuge by the being stunned, lowered defenses, requirement to be hit by a melee weapon, and practical uselessness in any non-solo situation) and up to 14k apparently, with a skilled Assassin</P> <P>We are the best debuffers (or next to best) in the game. We are not the most powerful melee class in the game. Our highest normal hit is being nerfed from 2 k at MII to 1k at MII (approximately).</P> <P>As for that, There is NO way that the most overpowered class in the game is the least popular.<BR>Brigands are <STRONG>THE</STRONG> least popular class in the game.</P> <P>Anyway, some arguements you might use: "Just because you're the least popular class doesn't mean your exempt from bugs or mistakes that make you too powerful" Response: Most of those have been nerfed (the Wis AA line, which frankly was open to you Swashies too) and anyway, all the Brig Bugs right now are negative. Bad for us. Not good.</P>

[SageGaspar]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Lingsch wrote:<div></div>OMGSTATISTICS<hr></blockquote>To begin with, I don't see brigs as overpowered especially as compared to swashes -- if you're overpowered we're both overpowered and we'll both take the hit. So it goes. Thus I agree with your basic point.Your analysis, though, I dunno where to start -- amount of characters playing a class is a terrible, terrible metric. Especially out of all players. I've got a 60 bruiser, 38 zerker and 33 necro that haven't seen the light of day in months. I've a 19 warlock I rolled a week ago, a level 8 guardian and a 15 ranger that have been deleted and remade a couple times recently. I'd wager a majority of the characters in those findings are alts, if you restricted it to 30+ you might get 50/50 on alts/mains.Secondly you're comparing DPS by listing your high melee attack that's getting nerfed. I hate to tell ya, there's a lot of classes with huge DPS that don't rely on huge melee hits like that. Swashes for one, both brawlers for another, summoners for a third set. And "we are the best debuffers (or next to best) in the game. We are not the most powerful melee class in the game," well, your debuffs are part of your DPS package. Summoner, ranger, assassin, brawler, they all get minor debuffs, but basically for their DPS score you get what they post. For us (yeah, I include swashes too) we beef up DPS by a fairly substantial amount for other people in the group and that's gotta be accounted for, brigs are the class that gets the most DPS from debuffs though.Anyway, what the poster up there was talking about with <i>Just dont down play how good ur class is thou. that dsnt fly anymore, ohh look nobody plays our class we suck right.</i> was the steady stream of FUD that's been pouring out of this board for the last good year or so. Brigs don't need a nerf but they're still not in a bad way at all, they're a very fun and effective class that's never getting turned down in a raid or group that has sense. Yet when there's an organized conspiracy of a bunch of people to, for some unknown reason, try to make their class look gimper than it is, it makes people think there's something there that they're missing.</div>

[haev]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kythik wrote:<BR> We will see how bad this "nerf" hits us.  Honestly though look at the last 2 major "nerfs" to brigands.  Most recently we had the Double attack + Proc nerf.  Ok that did hurt the DPS numbers but really it was needed.  Only other thing they could have done is get t1 dps classes to do 2500dps on a constant basis.  Beginings of KoS we had the Amazing Reflexes nerf.  Now that one did not go over well at all.  What happened though was it got chaged back to its former useful form.  <BR><BR><BR>At this point i think brigands have gotten less drastic nerfs then other classes.  We will still pwn with out a doubt.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>We always pwn  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> but we are prolly more conservative than other dps classes on how much dmg we do do. However with pvp we are left to the nerfbats mercy. Kinda annoys me cos most of us don't play pvp they should just keep the nerfs for them hehe.</P> <P>In answer to the reason why we don't die as much as casters. Well theres a few. We have really good hate reducing abilities. The int line AA just rocks I can most of the time dish everything out long as theres a hate buff on the  tank too. But we get hate reducing poisons that help huge too. Also if we do steel agro we are normally <> to the tank who just taunts it back from us. You don't realise how much hate we have til the tank dies and we are next on hate list bye bye lol!</P> <P>A smart brigand also watches for agro wipes and allows the tank to gain his hate back before dishing out the damage. I must admit that wurmslayer steels agro more often than i have ever experienced before but thats about to become a problem of the past <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P><BR> </P>

[Aral]

Was thinking about this last night, and IF ... that's a big IF double up truly uses current tier arts now, then the damage reduction on restrain in the short term is probably worth the longer term viability of double up with future arts.  It was totally unnecessary except for PVP (it's so obvious this is the reason), but having double up work with future Assault, Negotiations (if ever fixed...), blackjack, rake, and debilitate lines is a long term Plus.  We lose burst damage in the short term, but are probably better off down the road. That is, if Lockeye doesn't decide to just remove double up next time he decides it's time to revamp the game again. 

[Lings]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageGaspar wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lingsch wrote:<BR> OMGSTATISTICS<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>To begin with, I don't see brigs as overpowered especially as compared to swashes -- if you're overpowered we're both overpowered and we'll both take the hit. So it goes. Thus I agree with your basic point.</DIV> <DIV><BR>Your analysis, though, I dunno where to start -- amount of characters playing a class is a terrible, terrible metric. Especially out of all players. I've got a 60 bruiser, 38 zerker and 33 necro that haven't seen the light of day in months. I've a 19 warlock I rolled a week ago, a level 8 guardian and a 15 ranger that have been deleted and remade a couple times recently. I'd wager a majority of the characters in those findings are alts, if you restricted it to 30+ you might get 50/50 on alts/mains.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00ccff>Well, I was going to accomadate for all of that, but it was 2 in the morning (or close to) when I posted that, and the forums ate my first post, so I decided just to go all out on it, and not give any more limiting factors.</FONT><BR><BR>Secondly you're comparing DPS by listing your high melee attack that's getting nerfed. I hate to tell ya, there's a lot of classes with huge DPS that don't rely on huge melee hits like that. Swashes for one, both brawlers for another, summoners for a third set. And "we are the best debuffers (or next to best) in the game. We are not the most powerful melee class in the game," well, your debuffs are part of your DPS package. Summoner, ranger, assassin, brawler, they all get minor debuffs, but basically for their DPS score you get what they post. For us (yeah, I include swashes too) we beef up DPS by a fairly substantial amount for other people in the group and that's gotta be accounted for, brigs are the class that gets the most DPS from debuffs though.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00ccff>Again, I could give others, but it was really really late, and I would've gone into it step by step each attack. That was actually posted 5 seconds before I fell asleep. We are a debuff class, we can debuff really well. Our normal debuffs are somewhere around 1000 per defense, and last a minute or so. Dispatch does up to 3500 (Master I), but only lasts 13 seconds. If you work hard at it, you can do alot. Doesn't mean we're overpowered.</FONT><BR><BR>Anyway, what the poster up there was talking about with <I>Just dont down play how good ur class is thou. that dsnt fly anymore, ohh look nobody plays our class we suck right.</I> was the steady stream of FUD that's been pouring out of this board for the last good year or so. Brigs don't need a nerf but they're still not in a bad way at all, they're a very fun and effective class that's never getting turned down in a raid or group that has sense. Yet when there's an organized conspiracy of a bunch of people to, for some unknown reason, try to make their class look gimper than it is, it makes people think there's something there that they're missing.<BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00ccff>Well, I really don't wanna try to make us seem gimpy, we're not (anymore). To compare it more, I have several Master Is and Adept IIIs and everything else is Adept I. I really struggle (with full legendary/fabled equip, and the best poisons I could find) in a raid and I'll make somewhere on the bottom of the top 10. I know I'm not the best. But if Brigands are really overpowered, then I should be outDPSing people with worse/equal equips to me.</FONT> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Carna]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> hoopde wrote:<BR> <P>As much as i dont liek brigands, mainly cuz they are so much better than thier rouge counterpart which i play, i still wont say they are the most over powered melle class in the game that belongs to zerkers, if you have a decent one in ur guild ull know y. I think your second or third cant decide between brigs or brusiers.</P> <P>Just dont down play how good ur class is thou. that dsnt fly anymore, ohh look nobody plays our class we suck right.</P> <P>hoopdee<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Good job. After LU24 we're coming after your self haste and swathe next.<BR></P> <P>I'll tell you the primary different between Brigands and Swashbucklers.... when Swashbucklers get nerfed, they don't have to contend with Brigands attemtpting to justify their nerf on the message boards. That's the biggest difference between our two classes.</P><p>Message Edited by Carnagh on <span class=date_text>05-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:49 PM</span>

[SageGaspar]

<div>Restrain: 1140-1900 damage, refresh 60 seconds, or (1140 + 1900)/120 = 24.33 DPSNERFED omguseless restrain: 781-1303 damage, refresh 60 seconds, or (781+1303)/120 = 17.37 DPSGrand Total of Damage Nerf: 7 DPSI'm not going to justify your damage nerf, because it's not worth justifying. You can sneeze on a raid and miss that much DPS. That's engaging 2 seconds late. It's being hit by a knockdown or stunned for 2 seconds. It's missing two autoattacks. What it nerfs is not your DPS, but your up-front solo damage, and by about an auto-attack's worth. There's no replacement utility or bonus that's worth 7 DPS. I have no idea why they've even bothered. I guess their plan might be to nickel and dime some classes out of their damage, if they nerf one of your spells every patch I'll be right there with you. But as of LU24, no one's going to notice a thing in raids, where all eyes are focused.As to your control nerf, it sucks hard. I'll agree with you there. It hits everyone, including swashes, but it hits you guys especially. You'll feel it solo and in groups and it's stupid that they did it. Is it going to break your game or make you less desireable in groups or raids? No. Are they likely to change it or give you a bonus to make up for it? Probably not.The bottom line is that rogues are just too cool for them to handle. They gave us the utility, they gave us the DPS, and then they made the ultimate mistake of giving us the two coolest hats in the game. They can't figure out what to do with us. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if our mask and feather go bye-bye next patch.</div>

[Crimson Dragon]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>SageGaspar wrote:<div>Restrain: 1140-1900 damage, refresh 60 seconds, or (1140 + 1900)/120 = 24.33 DPSNERFED omguseless restrain: 781-1303 damage, refresh 60 seconds, or (781+1303)/120 = 17.37 DPSGrand Total of Damage Nerf: 7 DPSI'm not going to justify your damage nerf, because it's not worth justifying. You can sneeze on a raid and miss that much DPS. That's engaging 2 seconds late. It's being hit by a knockdown or stunned for 2 seconds. It's missing two autoattacks. What it nerfs is not your DPS, but your up-front solo damage, and by about an auto-attack's worth. There's no replacement utility or bonus that's worth 7 DPS. I have no idea why they've even bothered. I guess their plan might be to nickel and dime some classes out of their damage, if they nerf one of your spells every patch I'll be right there with you. But as of LU24, no one's going to notice a thing in raids, where all eyes are focused.As to your control nerf, it sucks hard. I'll agree with you there. It hits everyone, including swashes, but it hits you guys especially. You'll feel it solo and in groups and it's stupid that they did it. Is it going to break your game or make you less desireable in groups or raids? No. Are they likely to change it or give you a bonus to make up for it? Probably not.The bottom line is that rogues are just too cool for them to handle. They gave us the utility, they gave us the DPS, and then they made the ultimate mistake of giving us the two coolest hats in the game. They can't figure out what to do with us. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if our mask and feather go bye-bye next patch.</div><hr></blockquote>the inevitable retort....the thing isn't the quantified DPS of the ability. in most situations where we need it (solo/group), the encounter isn't going to LAST for 60 seconds. so it really comes down to being (and please... read this) <b><font color="#ffff00"><u>our biggest "burst" damage attack</u></font>.</b> now, if the theoretical brigand using the ability is really trying to use it for damage, they would stick double up in right after it (which also has a 60 second re-use) which effectively<font color="#ffffff"> </font><font color="#ffffff">doubles the damage</font>. then your old DPS number would be <font color="#ffffff"><u>48.66</u></font><font color="#ffff00"> </font>and the new would be <font color="#ffffff"><u>34.74</u></font><font color="#ffff00"><font color="#ffffff">. no dps 'parse' can tell you  how useful this ability is.... so......go play a brigand.... go use the ability. see how much our solo damage is dependent on the ability. then come back into the forum and talk about it. tell me how it's justified.</font></font></div><p>Message Edited by Crimson Dragon on <span class=date_text>05-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:43 AM</span>

[Carna]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageGaspar wrote:<BR> <DIV>Restrain: 1140-1900 damage, refresh 60 seconds, or (1140 + 1900)/120 = 24.33 DPS<BR>NERFED omguseless restrain: 781-1303 damage, refresh 60 seconds, or (781+1303)/120 = 17.37 DPS<BR>Grand Total of Damage Nerf: 7 DPS</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yep, and we could slice off a similar amount off 4 Sash CAs with a 60 sec reresh and you'd only being loosing 28dps wouldn't you? You hardly notice.</P> <P>There is a big difference between 1140-1900 x 2 and 781-1303 x 2 on a Dispatched mob... it would kind of be like nerfing Swathe damage. It wouldn't be much appreciated in the Swashbuckler community and the Brigand that tried to sell a nerf to Swathe damage as no big deal would get tared and feathered before he made it off the forum.</P> <P>We''ll let you off the tar and feathers because of the second half of your post, but take this as a warning <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[SageGaspar]

<div><blockquote><hr>Carnagh wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> SageGaspar wrote: <div>Restrain: 1140-1900 damage, refresh 60 seconds, or (1140 + 1900)/120 = 24.33 DPSNERFED omguseless restrain: 781-1303 damage, refresh 60 seconds, or (781+1303)/120 = 17.37 DPSGrand Total of Damage Nerf: 7 DPS</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Yep, and we could slice off a similar amount off 4 Sash CAs with a 60 sec reresh and you'd only being loosing 28dps wouldn't you? You hardly notice.</p> <p>There is a big difference between 1140-1900 x 2 and 781-1303 x 2 on a Dispatched mob... it would kind of be like nerfing Swathe damage. It wouldn't be much appreciated in the Swashbuckler community and the Brigand that tried to sell a nerf to Swathe damage as no big deal would get tared and feathered before he made it off the forum.</p> <p>We''ll let you off the tar and feathers because of the second half of your post, but take this as a warning <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><hr></blockquote>Mmm, I would hardly notice to be honest hehe if they took damage off our "big" backstab, but the Swathe line helps maintain AE aggro for tanks so I would be a little miffed about that. Actually my T7 pure damage attacks are the only ones I have left sitting at Adept 1 (and our damnable offensive stance, [Removed for Content] spongy loams). I view myself as (a) debuffer, (b) AE aggro transferer, (c) DPSer (esp burst and AE), in that order. You've got stuns instead of aggro transfer and both are usually not called upon in raids. It's bizarre that they're nerfing your stuns in the already-trivial-without-stuns grouping game, but the whole control aspect of this upcoming patch is borked to hell.Anyway, I'll stop derailing your thread. Consider me appropriately warned <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[hoop]

<P>No, the differance is that you get nerfd a whole heck of alot less then we do. I you cant see that your blind.</P> <P>As fir you comming after our self haste OH NOES!!! Do you know how easy its to max the haste mod in a raid setting? nerf it by 20% and im still over the cap with a zerker inquiz furies dirgeect..... i dont need to continue.</P> <P> </P> <P>hoopdee</P>

[Carna]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> hoopde wrote:<BR> <P>No, the differance is that you get nerfd a whole heck of alot less then we do. I you cant see that your blind.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>How the heck do you figure that?<BR></P>

[hoop]

<P>look at the history of the update notes and come back.</P> <P> </P> <P>hoopdee</P>

[Goonch]

<DIV>History shows that swashies who have gear and spells on par with a brigand of the same lvl will outdps them at a time in a group setting.  Raid group dps will fluxuate depending on make up of the group. But the fact is when I raided with Feebs (from TDS) in his short stint in my old guild (Static) I rarely, if ever could out dps him.  When I was doing 900-1200 he was doing 1000-1300 or more.  I know what swashies are capable of.  And the fact that we are losing dps even though its a small amount, does not justify swashy banter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont even care that swashies do more dps, I love my class.  But don't come barking about how bad you have it when it comes do dishing out the damage, you get no pity from me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Goonch on <span class=date_text>05-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:54 AM</span>

[hoop]

<P>Never complained about my damage. I complained about the disparity between our debuffs, and the slight damage we have over you dosent compensate for that.</P> <P> </P> <P>hoopdee</P>

[ag]

Great thing about the betrayal system now.... You think the grass is greener, c'mon over and have a chew yourself. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by agra on <span class=date_text>05-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:54 AM</span>

[Carna]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> hoopde wrote:<BR> <P>look at the history of the update notes and come back.</P> <P>hoopdee<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>No mate, you're the one making the assertions, the weight is on you to back them up. Your assertion is that Swashbucklers get nerfed more than Brigands... back it up.... You look at the history notes and tell us your findings if you feel there's something there that will make some sort of point as to why a dps loss is warranted by Brigands.<BR>

[Goonch]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> hoopde wrote:<BR> <P>Never complained about my damage. I complained about the disparity between our debuffs, and the slight damage we have over you dosent compensate for that.</P> <P> </P> <P>hoopdee</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>That isn't even a valid argument.  Thats like a warlock [Removed for Content] that he doesn't do the single target damage a wizard does. It's situational.  You are supposed to debuff less and deal more damage.   There are supposed to be differences in the classes.  If the 'slight damage' you have over us isn't enough then maybe you should take agras advice and come bat for Lucan's Team. 

[Kegofbud]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Goonch wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> hoopde wrote:<BR> <P>Never complained about my damage. I complained about the disparity between our debuffs, and the slight damage we have over you dosent compensate for that.</P> <P> </P> <P>hoopdee</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>That isn't even a valid argument.  Thats like a warlock [Removed for Content] that he doesn't do the single target damage a wizard does. It's situational.  You are supposed to debuff less and deal more damage.   There are supposed to be differences in the classes.  If the 'slight damage' you have over us isn't enough then maybe you should take agras advice and come bat for Lucan's Team. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV> <DIV>That's the right thing to do too, since Lucan's team wears black, cheats, and steals. Antonia's team wears tights and finds seafoam green "the new black."</DIV>

[hoop]

<P>So you think the lil disparity in dps should allo t hve vsty superoir debuffs? I could agree [Removed for Content] you if being evil had a down side i would agree with you but this is no downside at all.</P> <P> </P> <P>Hoopdee</P> <P> </P>

[Carna]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> hoopde wrote:<BR> <P>So you think the lil disparity in dps should allo t hve vsty superoir debuffs? I could agree [Removed for Content] you if being evil had a down side i would agree with you but this is no downside at all.</P> <P>Hoopdee<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I still think you should back up the assertions you made.</P> <P>I think it would be nice to do some parser comparisons and find out once and for all how little this disparity is in dps.</P> <P>I still think you're going to ignore your offensive debuffs.</P> <P>I still think you're going to ignore that Brigands can't debuff Physical mitigation at all pre-50.</P> <P>I still think you're going to ignore your quite considerable AE advantage over Brigands.</P> <P>I still think that while Swashbucklers were making out like bandits before the WIS AA nerf which enhanced Swashbucklers way more, Brigands didn't say a dicky bird about what was a very large dps disparity; and that is the difference between us.</P> <P>Any advantage you have will be minimised, and any advantage we have will be maximised, because you are quite obviously a fundamentally jealous individual.... I suggest for LU24 you betray.</P> <P>I might well betray for LU24 because I think Brigands present a stronger offering on raids and Swashbucklers in groups. I group way more than I raid. I think the AE advantage Swashbucklers have is very considerable indeed and it's very attractive to me. If I raided more I'd stay Brigand... I'm very happy with my Brigand in groups, I just feel the Swashbuckler to be stronger in that scenario (I feel the Brigand is stronger solo but I don't solo much at all these days).... but I can betray to Swashbuckler come LU24 if I want.... So can you.<BR></P>

[Keldo]

I don't think brigand debuffs are vastly superior, but certainly from a standpoint of what makes a mob easier to kill, a brigand wins in that respect.  It is a night and day difference when you raid without a brigand because no other classes can make up the mitigation debuffs.  Shamans and enchanters can make up a swashbucklers DPS and skills offensive debuffs, so you don't notice them being gone as much.  Plus, just as a fact of eq2 raiding, most mobs do not hit the tank extremely hard and the fights are all about DPS, DPS, DPS.  This hopefully will change in coming expansion as we have no level cap raise, and they can get everything under control.  I think the class specific AAs will really help define the roles of the rogue classes, and I am looking forward to that greatly.  Most Swash are probably bitter about ancient teachings more than anything.  2 of ours were effectively gutted, although rightfully so in the grand scheme of things.  But taking a peek over at Brigands we saw argueably the best 3 ancient teaching lineup of any class.  Easy to make a person jealous.  Of course, since then, 2 of yours have also been nerfed (although Double Up is making a comeback similar to Hurricane + wisdom line).  Plus for some reason Swashbucklers seem to thing any proc nerf is directly targetted at them, I don't really understand it, as obviously every melee class in the game is effected, for some reason we take it personally, at least the board does.  Bottom line is no one likes to be nerfed, and they remember it for a long time, certainly longer than someone who doesn't play a class. As far as DPS advantage, I took a look at Kythik's numbers from Lab (since I use the same AA setup and weapon) and I parsed lower than him on single named, but higher than him on trash and multiple mob encounters, Our AE advantage is definitly a big one, no one can deny that.  I think the biggest difference is Swashbucklers can get good DPS anywhere due to better offensive buffs.  Brigands have to have a good group.  I guess its also a tradeoff because Brigands don't really require a healer, where a Swash needs one if they want to stay in the AE. I really don't understand the nerf to Restrain, only thing I can think of is they didn't like how it interacted with the new Double Up.  Sorry for the derail, I just wanted to make sure you knew that not everyone is cheering on your nerf, they just might not post about it.  I have been a rogue for a long time, since the beginning in EQ1.  Went in cycles for us there, too.  Should clear up when each class has firmly defined its role.  Brigands mostly have done that, but Swashbucklers are still in flux, making them nervous. <div></div>