Learning Elvish and the Different Types (EQ, Tolkien, DnD etc)

[Ilavatar]

Can anyone point me to some good sites with Elvish vocabulary that I can use in-game?I'm primarily interested in EQ2 Elvish.But I'm also interested in information about how Elvish has evolved since it was received from Iluvatar by the Arch Bard Tolkien. Also how it has changed in the different universes like DnD (TSR, Salvatore, etc.)Btw, do Dark Elves speak essentially the same language as High Elves? Different dialects perhaps?<div></div>

[Owlchick]

This is a pretty decent resource, with links to a variety of other sources:  <A href="http://nellardo.com/lang/elf/faq.html#section1" target=_blank>http://nellardo.com/lang/elf/faq.html#section1</A>

[woodelfmast]

<P>Well,, I know of like pretty much the best site for Elvish lol</P> <P> </P> <P>Here's the link Ilavatar!  </P> <P> </P> <P><A href="http://www.grey-company.org/Circle/language/phrase.htm" target=_blank>http://www.grey-company.org/Circle/language/phrase.htm</A></P> <P> </P> <P>Hope it's good aha</P> <P>Seeyaaa</P>

[Didi]

<DIV>Most roleplayers I've come across tend to use Tolkein's elvish for high elves, and Salvatore's Drow tongue for dark elves.  This makes them totally different in look and sound, since Tolkein's elvish is a very comprehensive and linguistically developed language, while Drow is just a piecing together of various phrases found in Salvatore's books and doesn't have the structure that a real language needs to make it viable.  You can really learn to speak elvish; you can't really speak Drow.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, it's been said many times that dark elves in EQ2 are not Drow, so there are many who oppose dark elves speaking Drow too.  There are one or two places in EQ1 where a Drow phrase was used by an NPC which are commonly cited by the "dark elves speak Drow" faction, but this doesn't necessarily prove anything other than that the EQ1 dev team knew Salvatore was playing EQ1 at one point.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't think there's enough in-game text in elvish or dark elf to be certain how close either are to Tolkein's elvish.  You can probably find a way to justify whatever you decide you prefer.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>Wow. Owlchick responded before I could. lol. :p</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nice site. that's pretty handy.</DIV>

[Methriln]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> woodelfmaster wrote:<BR> <P>Well,, I know of like pretty much the best site for Elvish lol</P> <P> </P> <P>Here's the link Ilavatar!  </P> <P> </P> <P><A href="http://www.grey-company.org/Circle/language/phrase.htm" target=_blank>http://www.grey-company.org/Circle/language/phrase.htm</A></P> <P> </P> <P>Hope it's good aha</P> <P>Seeyaaa</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>greycompany is nice but ive seen several other elvish language sites discredit it. Cant remember the reason y tho.

[Araxes]

<div></div>On a slightly related note ... R.A. Salvatore has stated in multiple interviews that he was a regular EverQuest player (as I am sure most EQLive players are aware).  I haven't followed him with any regularity for several years but I bet he has at least tried EQ2 and possibly plays it.  He's also said he doesn't like manga-style or manga-influenced artwork and prefers standard high fantasy artwork ... of course this is going back several years and I know in the meantime several graphic novels have been released based on the Dark Elf trilogy and they are what I would call NOT typical high fantasy style ... anyhow ... the point is I'd be surprised if he plays EQ2 but I'd be even more surprised if he was a WoW convert. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Anyway "drow" is a term that Ed Greenwood and/or Niles and/or Gygax and/or Salvatore collectively integrated as part of the dark elf heritage within the world of the Forgotten Realms.  Other games have since copied the "dark elf" idea that Salvatore is mostly responsible for having created and popularized in his novels (dark skin and white hair with black, red, or purple eyes in most variations) but the term drow is technically not a fantasy term - it's part of a specific Forgotten Realms nomenclature.  Therefore its somewhat absurd when I see people in EQ2 running around with things in thier bio's about "drow" and names that refer to Drizzt or the Do'Urdens or Briza or Malice or the Baenres or Uthegental and whatnot.  Even the idea of matriarchs ruling "Houses" -- all of this is from Salvatore's novels and prior to that from his work with Niles and Greenwood on the Menzo boxed set ... and prior to that mostly a vision that a couple guys had in their basement in the 70's.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div><p>Message Edited by Vicontessa on <span class=date_text>12-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:42 PM</span>

[Mary the Prophetess]

<P>People use Tolkien for Elvish because, frankly, there is not any Elvish out there that is anywhere near as developed as his various Elvish grammers.  (he was, after all, a linguist).</P> <P>It's not like it is exactly a <STRONG><EM>simple</EM></STRONG> task to develop a whole longuage using proper tenses, cases and vocabulary.</P> <P>The problem lies in copywrite issues and other such legal matters; and the fact that that SOE, (for example), does not especially wish to use anything that would help promote a competitor.</P> <P>So MMORPGs either develop a <EM><STRONG>very</STRONG></EM> rudimentary language of their own or, (more commonly), simply represent the different racial languages by using different fonts.</P> <P>UO had a 'gargoyle' language which was *just* barely extensive enough to be used, and EQ has a spattering of words and phrases that are unique to Norrath, but they simply cannot come up to what Tolkien produced.</P> <P>To be practicale and usable, a fantasy language would have to have *at least* several hundred, (maybe 300-600), vocabulary words and some sense of tenses.  Even then it would be a very rudimentary language.</P> <P>No easy task at all, and really a time investment totally out of proportion for the relatively small percentage of the player base that would recognize and appreciate the effort involved.</P> <P>Indeed, there is a greater than average chance that the majority of players would actually view learning such a language as a terrific imposition upon their play time, and would be openly and vocally hostile to the idea.  </P> <P>Different strokes for different folks.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Mary the Prophetess on <span class=date_text>12-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:28 AM</span>

[Earwig]

<div></div><a target="_blank" href="http://www.uib.no/people/hnohf/">Ardalambion</a> is the best resource for Tolkien languages out there and it is listed in the link that Owlchick posted earlier. It contains both Quenya (high elven), SIndarin (the lagnuage of the grey elves) as well as other languages such as orkish. The grey company website does <b>not </b>contain Tolkien elvish! It might seem as the real thing but is really isn't.  It is completley made up with words from different elvish languages for an RPG purpose. If you are at all interested in learning more about Tolkien elvish i would not recommend using that site at all.<div></div>

[Kryussius]

There's a pretty cool english / drow translator out there that I and a few others use just to add a little bit of 'flavor' to the RP with dark elves.  Granted, Teir'Dal aren't Drow, but as they're almost identical (subterranean, bitter and spiteful, dark skin / white hair, matriarch society, even the occasional spider-theme that showed up in EQL), I personally don't see the issue with people using whatever type of dialect they want to use.<div></div>

[Didi]

Teir'dal aren't matriarchal; Neriak had a king as well as a queen.  And I think the spider theme is just a general EQ theme ... ever notice there's spiders in almost EVERY zone?  :smileyvery-happy:

[Ilavatar]

Thanks for all the great replies and sites about Elvish!The discussion of Dark Elves was also great and inspired a long session of web-surfing and Wikepedia reading about elves and computer games (and, of course, Tolkien.)<div></div>

[Kryussius]

<div><blockquote><hr>Didi wrote:<div></div>Teir'dal aren't matriarchal; Neriak had a king as well as a queen.  And I think the spider theme is just a general EQ theme ... ever notice there's spiders in almost EVERY zone?  :smileyvery-happy:<hr></blockquote>Granted.  Might have been the guild I was in bleeding over into my EQ1 memory.  I know that the head of the warrior guild was a female, as was Innoruuk's chosen avatar.Yeah there were spiders in alot of zones - but the only spider cross-breed I remember were the Teir'Dal/spider cross things in the Dreadlands on Kunark.Point is, there's not really a reason to give hell to those who want to use Drow language in EQ, in my opinion.</div>

[Mary the Prophetess]

<P>Lanys T'Vyl, (the daughter of Innoruuk and his priestess in Neriak), was his chosen avatar.  </P> <P>She came up short of his expectations, and paid the price for that.  However I do not think this is the last that will ever be heard about her.</P> <P>She is a main character of the EQ story's plot line, and they all seem to find their way back into the story somehow.</P> <P>That is a good thing I think.  We will see.</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Mary the Prophetess on <span class=date_text>12-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:16 AM</span>