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Hirebra
03-13-2005, 10:17 AM
I am working on a complete history with dates for all EQOA, EQL, and EQ2.Any help would be good, even if its as rough as "two centuries before x". For events like raids RL time is fine, I can calculate. Citing sources gets you extra points. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />EQOAWhat year is it? ( I think you can do "/time Ingame" )How old are all the cities in EQOA, especially Qeynos, Highborne and Freeport?How long ago was Takish'Hiz, the city of elves in Eldaar forest, destroyed?Tell me about the building of Arcadin (Erudin.) Was it put in for the Frontiers expansion? Is there any indication of the Combine empire around?I see Paineel on maps. This is not supposed to exist yet. Is this a city, a wilderness, a dungeon?Tell me more about the destruction of Highborne dealing with Prexus somehow?Why would Fayspires, Tethelin, Moradhim, and Klik-Anon not exist in EverQuest 1? Any indication of their future?EQLWho reigns in Qeynos now?Any sort of dating on age of Freeport?Confirm founding date of Highpass?How long after release were the Planes of Fear, Hate, and Sky discovered? Gods killed?How long after release did adventurers defeat Lady Vox and Lord Nagafen?When was the War of Kithicor?How long after Planes of Power release did various events happen? (Solusek, Rallos, Rathe, etc)How long after Kunark release did various events happen? (Trakanon, etc)EQ2When (Norrath terms) did Lady Vox get killed?

Kamimura
03-13-2005, 11:58 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> <P></P> <P>Hirebrand wrote:<BR>Confirm founding date of Highpass?<BR></P> <P>How long after release were the Planes of Fear, Hate, and Sky discovered? Gods killed?<BR>How long after release did adventurers defeat Lady Vox and Lord Nagafen?<BR>How long after Planes of Power release did various events happen? (Solusek, Rallos, Rathe, etc)<BR>How long after Kunark release did various events happen? (Trakanon, etc)<BR><BR></P> <P> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>There is a sign in high keep which has the date on it. I cant get into EQ right now or else id get it for you.. (Im looking at some screenshots though.. it appears to be 2097..?)</P> <P> </P> <P>The other questions are a litle confusing.. wouldnt several of those depend on the server and such?<BR></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Kamimura on <span class=date_text>03-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:01 AM</span>

troodon311
03-13-2005, 12:10 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> Hirebrand wrote:</P> <P><BR>How long after release did adventurers defeat Lady Vox and Lord Nagafen? <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>If we're thinking in terms of EQ2's history I'd say they were never defeated, considering Naggy's still kicking it and Vox was taken out by Drakota.</P> <P>As to the others... they don't really give ingame dates for anything.  And if you're trying to make an EQOA-EQ1 timeline you can forget it, it's futile :smileyhappy:</P>

Police9
03-13-2005, 12:38 PM
<DIV>Check this site out for some EQOA info, it has the Takish'Hiz information I think you are looking for :smileyhappy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://everquestonlineadventures.station.sony.com/content.jsp?page=Lore" target=_blank>http://everquestonlineadventures.station.sony.com/content.jsp?page=Lore</A></DIV>

Hirebra
03-13-2005, 01:35 PM
<blockquote><hr><DIV>if you're trying to make an EQOA-EQ1 timeline you can forget it, it's futile </DIV><hr></blockquote>I'm 90% done <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

troodon311
03-13-2005, 02:18 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hirebrand wrote:<BR><BR>I'm 90% done <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Who was Rile Sathir trying to invade when his fleet was ambushed?<p>Message Edited by troodon311 on <span class=date_text>03-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:19 AM</span>

Hirebra
03-13-2005, 03:37 PM
Faydwer, supposedly. At that time the Iksar controlled the seas of all the world...

troodon311
03-14-2005, 01:14 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hirebrand wrote:<BR>Faydwer, supposedly. At that time the Iksar controlled the seas of all the world...<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Who were they invading on Faydwer?</DIV>

BLOODka
03-14-2005, 02:19 AM
<DIV>Person ruling Qeynos in EQLive:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Antonious Bayle the IV</DIV>

Mordock of the Highwynd
03-14-2005, 03:08 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>EQOA<BR><EM><U>What year is it? ( I think you can do "/time Ingame" )</U></EM>  </P> <P>You can't do a /time ingame, but it started <STRONG>about</STRONG> the year 1705.<BR></P> <P><EM><U>How old are all the cities in EQOA, especially Qeynos, Highborne and Freeport? </U></EM></P> <P>Qeynos and Freeport have just started out.  They are little more than villages.  Highborne has existed somewhere between 5-10 years.  <BR></P> <P><EM><U>How long ago was Takish'Hiz, the city of elves in Eldaar forest, destroyed?</U></EM>  </P> <P>About 150 years before EQOA.  You can still see Dark Elves looting it.  The Truearrow guard are still trying to protect it.<BR></P> <P><EM><U>Tell me about the building of Arcadin (Erudin.) Was it put in for the Frontiers expansion?</U></EM> </P> <P>Yes, it was put into the Frontiers expansion.  The main tower is almost done being built. There are some tents set up for merchants.  A few buildings are built.  You can see elementals (Particularly Earth Elementals) building on to Arcadin.<BR></P> <P><EM><U>Is there any indication of the Combine empire around?</U></EM></P> <P>The Combine Empire isn't around, but much of their secrets still exist.  You can make combine steel and all that type of stuff in tradeskills.</P> <P><BR><EM><U>I see Paineel on maps. This is not supposed to exist yet. Is this a city, a wilderness, a dungeon?</U></EM></P> <P>It does not exist yet.  The Heretics are in the middle of building the city in a zone called Stone of Morthalis.  The zone east of it is "The Hunt".  A bunch of Kerra live there.  The zone north of it is Paineel.  All that is is some heretic lookout towers.</P> <P><BR><EM><U>Tell me more about the destruction of Highborne dealing with Prexus somehow?</U></EM></P> <P>Highborne was indeed destroyed by Prexus.  Along the way to odus, some Erudites found an egg.  This happened to be the egg of Prexus, containing the avatar of oceans.  Needless to say, Prexus wasn't happy.  As punishment, the city of Highborne was destroyed in a tsunami.  The Erudites, being stuck up and proud of themselves, wouldn't want anyone to know what happened.</P> <P><BR><EM><U>Why would Fayspires, Tethelin, Moradhim, and Klik-Anon not exist in EverQuest 1? Any indication of their future?</U></EM></P> <P>Fayspires and Tethelin is really the elves' last foothold on Tunaria, trying to reclaim what little of the Elddar remained.  The Dark Elves probably destroyed the city, since Neriak was so close to where Fayspires was.  Moradhim was just an outpost of Kaladim, so it probably has no significance.  Klik-Anon was probably destroyed by a lava river.  Why that?  They lived very close to Lavastorm.  On EQOA, you could see a village of gnomes in Lavastorm with a huge lava river close to the city of Klik Anon.  The gnomes probably messed with it and ended up destroying the city.</P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

Sp
03-14-2005, 04:00 AM
Paineel is under construction supposedly, from what I've heard, there is a new and old Paineel. New Paineel is also called "the Hole" or something, Old Paineel is built above Ground and can be visited in EQOA- however any non-ERU SK/NEC will be attacked by Paineel's guards and undead servants.I believe Klick'Anon was destroyed by Lord Nagafen becoming enraged that the gnomes build so close to his domain, so he sends his armies to destroy it.I've also heard stories that Moradhim was overun by gnolls, who have a knack for mining just as the dwarves. There is a /time comand, but it only gives real world time.<p>Message Edited by Spus on <span class=date_text>03-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:01 PM</span>

Kamimura
03-14-2005, 05:36 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Spus wrote:<BR>Paineel is under construction supposedly, from what I've heard, there is a new and old Paineel. New Paineel is also called "the Hole" or something, Old Paineel is built above Ground and can be visited in EQOA- however any non-ERU SK/NEC will be attacked by Paineel's guards and undead servants. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Hmm... in EQL the hole contains Old Paineel. The hole was created in the Erudite civil war, and Paineel was built into it. However, they poked around too much and let loose a lot of monsters from the plane of Underfoot. One Erudite sacrificed himself to seal the hole up. Then new Paineel was built. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here is a link to the story, told by an EQL NPC. <A href="http://allakhazam.com/lore/Story_The_Hole.html" target=_blank>http://allakhazam.com/lore/Story_The_Hole.html</A></DIV>

Kilaelya
03-14-2005, 07:41 PM
<DIV>Aye and EQOA is currently before their cival war, Paineel is more like an outpost, there really isnt much there. Necromancy/Shadowknights is a "hidden art" to most Erudites atm, where shadowknights and necromancers start is hidden below Highbourne. Plus, I recall Erudites in Highbourne at the coast would tell you of a dark day on the horizon and most of the NPCs in the city felt something was going to happen, but they weren't sure what. In the city libraries NPCs are frantically looking and researching, but for what they are always hush hush about it. When you actually walked into the library it would give you a pop up saying something like, "You hear voices but as you draw near they become hushed." Which going by <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=lore&message.id=2514&highlight=combine+age#M2514" target=_blank>this thread</A> is this event:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Five Norrathian years later, the Erudites discovered an egg.<SPAN>  </SPAN>This happened to be the egg of Prexus.<SPAN>  </SPAN>The Ocean lord grew angry with the High men.<SPAN>  </SPAN>His wrath was great, as he destroyed the city of Highborne.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Many Erudites died when it was destroyed.  The Erudites, being as proud as they are, do not like to talk about this embarrassment to their race, for it shows weakness within.  To this day, they do not talk about it."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just hoping to help pin point the years ><</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>About Arcadin, a neat fact is that Erud himself walks around the city checking on progress (or what I always thought it looked like heh)</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Kilaelya on <span class=date_text>03-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:03 AM</span>

bar
03-17-2005, 09:21 PM
might as well try and add lords of everquest into the time line, I still think it fits far better than EQ:OA did into lore

Hirebra
03-18-2005, 09:36 AM
Tell me about lords of everquest and maybe I will. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

troodon311
03-18-2005, 11:11 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hirebrand wrote:<BR>Tell me about lords of everquest and maybe I will.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>All the races (including Iksar and Erudites) live on Tunaria prior to the destruction of the Elddar Forest.  3 factions (evils, good, and neutral basically) engage in a huge war that all later incarnations of the world seem to have forgotten.</P> <P>Ergo, it's only slightly less believable than EQOA; that is to say, completely unbelievable. :smileyindifferent: </P> <P>It serves as a good example of Sony not caring whether or not a game makes any sense, thus the fact that EQOA simply exists is not sufficient evidence to validate its inconsistent lore in relation to EQ1 and 2.</P><p>Message Edited by troodon311 on <span class=date_text>03-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:12 PM</span>

Mordock of the Highwynd
03-19-2005, 09:54 AM
<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> troodon311 wrote <P><FONT color=#ffffcc>Ergo, it's only slightly less believable than EQOA; that is to say, completely unbelievable. :smileyindifferent: </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffcc>It serves as a good example of Sony not caring whether or not a game makes any sense, thus the fact that EQOA simply exists is not sufficient evidence to validate its inconsistent lore in relation to EQ1 and 2.</FONT></P> <HR> <P>Troodon, you continue to be one weird dude.  At least you have been convinced that Sony did place the two games as different times of the same world.  And you are directing your anger at Sony, which is good.</P> <P>But that leaves you way out on a limb.  If EQOA and EQLive are the same world, then Highborne (etc.) exists, because Sony says it does.  And the fact that it is not mentioned in EQLive just means that EQLive's lore isn't perfect.  But lore is not supposed to be perfect.  Heck, in our scientific society, we have huge gaps in our history.  Egyptologists are rewriting nearly the the entire time line of ancient Egypt--all the ancient dates are likely wrong.  Archaeologists who said that the story of Samson and the Lion did not come from Israel (because there were no lions in Israel) have had to revise their ideas after they found skeletons of lions.  Troy, which was found in the last century, was thought to be a myth.</P> <P>On Earth, 2005, we are constantly discovering that we made mistakes about our history.  Heck, we even find that we made mistakes about our recent history.  During the 1990s we found that there really were a bunch of Russian spies in Franklin Delano Roosevelt's administration (we're sorry, Joe McCarthy, you were right).  We only found that out because the Berlin Wall came down and the Russians started talking about it.</P> <P>By making lore fallible, Sony made it more realistic.</P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>

Mordock of the Highwynd
03-19-2005, 10:00 AM
<DIV>Oh, yeah, one more thing.  Suppose that some EQ2 lore did not match up with some in-game play of EQLive?  Which would be right? The EQ2 lore or the EQLive gaming experience?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We would have to conclude that there was a bit of faulty lore in EQ2.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ditto, EQOA.  If EQLive contradicts the EQOA gaming experience, then EQLive is wrong (since, as you admit, Sony says they are the same universe).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just ask the little guy in Qeynos that is looking for Fayspires about this.</DIV>

troodon311
03-19-2005, 10:59 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mordock of the Highwynd wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <P>Troodon, you continue to be one weird dude. </P> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Everyone always thinks that</P> <P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <P></P> <HR> But that leaves you way out on a limb.  If EQOA and EQLive are the same world, then Highborne (etc.) exists, because Sony says it does. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>No, it doesn't.  LoE proves that Sony can put out games whose lore is nothing but meaningless crap</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P></P> <HR>  And the fact that it is not mentioned in EQLive just means that EQLive's lore isn't perfect.  <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>It's not JUST the fact that very important events and realities in EQOA aren't mentioned in EQ1's, it's also the fact that EQ1's lore is actually completely incompadable with all the races living on Norrath 500 years previous (significantly less if Hirebrand's "chronograph" is to be believed.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> But lore is not supposed to be perfect.  <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>No, but the history it describes is undebatable fact.  History actually happened one way, not the thousands of ways it can be envisioned to have happened.  The information available in EQ1 simply does not allow for all of its races to have coexisted on Tunaria so recently (if at all!)</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Heck, in our scientific society, we have huge gaps in our history.  <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Advanced science has nothing to do with what figuring out historical gaps.  At best it can simply date things and find out reasons for events that we do know about.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Archaeologists who said that the story of Samson and the Lion did not come from Israel (because there were no lions in Israel) have had to revise their ideas after they found skeletons of lions.  <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>....</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Troy, which was found in the last century, was thought to be a myth. <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I don't know what that has to do with the topic.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> On Earth, 2005, we are constantly discovering that we made mistakes about our history.  Heck, we even find that we made mistakes about our recent history.  During the 1990s we found that there really were a bunch of Russian spies in Franklin Delano Roosevelt's administration (we're sorry, Joe McCarthy, you were right).  We only found that out because the Berlin Wall came down and the Russians started talking about it. <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>1) We are not talking about things that people might try and keep secret.  And even if the Gnomes, Dwarves, and Elves wanted to keep their extended stay on Tunaria a secret for some reason they have neither the resources and mad 1337 skillz of the KJB nor the small circle of people who would have known about it (they probably didn't snuff out all the humans, halflings, erudites, dark elves, ogres, and trolls who remembered them staying there).</P> <P>2) You can't compare human history to Norrathian history, mostly due to the very long lifespans of some races and the relatively advanced nature of their cultures throughout their history.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P></P> <HR> By making lore fallible, Sony made it more realistic. <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>It's not that the lore is fallable.  The fact that some of the Iksar spell and pronounce "Cabilis" incorrectly in EQ2 doesn't bother me too much because there are reasonable explanations for it.  The fact that all of EQ1's lore states that the Elves <EM>fled</EM> Tunaria after the fall of Takish'Hiz, and the fact that not a single Elf remembers living there, are completely different issues that one cannot come up good refutations of.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P></P> <HR> Oh, yeah, one more thing.  Suppose that some EQ2 lore did not match up with some in-game play of EQLive?  Which would be right? The EQ2 lore or the EQLive gaming experience? <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>If I'm playing EQ2 then EQ2 is right. If I'm playing EQ1 then EQ1 is right.  I would say that they are different universes and EQ2's incarnation of Norrath was different from EQ1's in this respect.  If there began to appear many insurmountable differences, ones that do not allow for simple variances, then I would be forced to conclude that they do not take place in the same Norrath.</P> <P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P></P> <HR> We would have to conclude that there was a bit of faulty lore in EQ2. <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yes but I would be a reasonable human being and admit it.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><BR></P> <HR> Ditto, EQOA.  If EQLive contradicts the EQOA gaming experience, then EQLive is wrong (since, as you admit, Sony says they are the same universe). <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yeah, if I was playing EQOA then EQ1 would be wrong.  But I'm not, I'm playing EQ2, not EQOA2.  That means that EQ1 trumps EQOA when it comes to contradictions not dealt with by EQ2.  Therefor, because EQ1 and EQOA completely, utterly, and conclusively do not take place in the same world then I must conclude that EQ2 and EQOA do not.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P></P> <HR> Just ask the little guy in Qeynos that is looking for Fayspires about this. <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Big deal? So there was a small Elven city on Tunaria, that does not falsify EQ1 and does nothing to reconcile EQOA with EQ1.  If the guy says, "Yeah, I'm looking for the remains of the huge Elven city all the Elves inhabited for a couple hundred years before they all bailed to Faydwer 700 years ago."</P>

Mordock of the Highwynd
03-19-2005, 09:47 PM
<P><BR></P> <HR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Troodon311 wrote:</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>Mordock of the Highwynd wrote:</P> <P>Troy, which was found in the last century, was thought to be a myth.</P> <P></P> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>          I don't know what that has to do with the topic.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Troy = Highborne</P> <P>Myth = Stuck up EQlive players who think anything beside EQ1 lore is screwed up.</P>

troodon311
03-19-2005, 09:49 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mordock of the Highwynd wrote:<BR> <P><BR></P> <P>Myth = Stuck up EQlive players who think anything beside EQ1 lore is screwed up.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yeah, I'm stuck up.  Meanwhile all the falsifications of EQOA''s place in the lore of EQ1 and 2 stand unrefuted.... brilliant.</P> <P>Mordock, look at it like this.  I have no bias for or against EQOA.  I'm a former EQ1 player that is now an EQ2 player; whether or not EQOA fits in with the lore of these two worlds is unimportant to me as a player.  You, on the other hand, are a former (possibly present) EQOA player.  You have an inherant bias towards thinking EQOA must fit with EQ2 because you want your two game worlds to jiive.  That's understandable, but it inhibits your ability to think empirically on this issue; I have no such, for lack of a better term, conflicts of interest.</P> <P>I didn't go into this assuming EQOA was false.  Heck, why would I want a game that takes place in Norrath to make no sense?  It was only after learning about its world, and comparing it to the world EQ1 presents us with, that I came to the conclusion that EQOA does not fit.  And now that I do think this I am evidently doomed to carry on pointless arguments about it over the internet.  Fun times.</P> <P>And no, your characterization of me being a "stuck up EQlive playerwho think[s] anything beside EQ1 lore is screwed up" is false.  Have I ever attacked Champions of Norrath?  No.  You know why?  Because I've yet to find any problems with it so I just assume it fits in there somewhere.  It is only after I learn that a game does not fit (like LoE or EQOA) that I even bother to develop an opinion on it.</P><p>Message Edited by troodon311 on <span class=date_text>03-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:09 AM</span>

Hirebra
03-20-2005, 02:57 AM
Please try to keep my thread civil please. Thanks! <div></div>

Mordock of the Highwynd
03-20-2005, 03:43 AM
<P> </P><p>Message Edited by Mordock of the Highwynd on <span class=date_text>03-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:44 PM</span>

Mordock of the Highwynd
03-20-2005, 08:32 AM
<DIV>I think you have clarified your stand with your last posts.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All lore is infallible in the game in which it exists.  </DIV> <DIV>I would be interested to see the statement from Sony that says this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You are also very clear that all lore is complete because of long life spans of races.</DIV> <DIV>So that the written history is always complete.  The few score pages of EQ Lore leaves out nothing of significance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And the elf in Castleview that wants to return to Fayspires may signal that EQ2 and EQ1 are not the same game for you--as you say, if the contradictions get too large for you . . .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And finally, addressing me, you say</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc6666>You have an inherant bias towards thinking EQOA must fit with EQ2 because you want your two game worlds to jiive.  That's understandable, but it inhibits your ability to think empirically on this issue; I have no such, for lack of a better term, conflicts of interest.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You are so upset that some EQ1 lore might be wrong and you have no inherent bias? Quite good.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Heck, I am willing to admit that some <U>lore</U> in EQOA may be very wrong.  But the gaming experience, which Sony designed and credits as part of the EQ universe is, indeed, in the EQ universe--because they say it is and they are the final arbiter of that.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Mordock of the Highwynd on <span class=date_text>03-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:42 PM</span>