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View Full Version : Is the magic of EverQuest II different from that of EverQuestLive?


WarderDrag
02-13-2005, 04:39 AM
<DIV>I was reading Dragonlance: Dragons of a Lost Star earlier today (for those who dont know, it is an extensive fantasy set of books and series based around a world known as Krynn), and I began thinking about the simularities between Dragonlance and the occurances in EQ2. In Dragonlance, after a certain time period before this book, the Gods left the world of Krynn, and with their departure, magic and clerical powers dissapeared from the world, leaving many of the worlds clerics and wizards powerless. Thirty years have passed, and new forms of magic and healing, known as "Wild Magic" and "Mysticism" have replaced the old magic that dissapeared with the Gods.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In EverQuest II, many of the classes are changed, and I have heard that many spells of magic-users in EQL are far different than EQ2's own. Also, the classes appear to be different, and gaining access to them is different, thus making the classes different, even though those appearing to have simular abilities and purposes have adopted the names of their predacessors (i.e. Necromancers in EQL and EQ2). I also remember talking to an NPC in Starcrest over a month ago that mentioned that Arcanic Combat, a gift of the Ashen Order, is what saved the people of Qeynos and Freeport during the Second Rallosian War and all current classes use Arcanic Combat (explaining why bursts of power appear when a warrior is using special attacks against an enemy, I suppose). This sounds, in many ways what happened in Dragonlance (I wont go into all the things that ive noticed now that ive thought about it that have happened in EQ2 that have also happened in Dragonlance *cough cough* Cataclysm...Luclin *cough cough*)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If this magic and clerical power that we know now derived from a different source (the rediscovery of new magic, as in Dragonlance), would that be a good explanation for the many magic users who claim their charecters come from the times of EQL/EQOA who now begin again at level 3 with no magic?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So my questions are:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If this is so, is the magic and clerical powers (since the gods have left) of EQ2 different from that of pre-Cataclysm times, and is it derived from a different source?</DIV> <DIV>If so, where did magic come from in EQL and where does it come from now? </DIV> <DIV>Where did magic come from in EQL?</DIV> <DIV>Anyone know a good source of mage-lore pre-EQ2?</DIV> <DIV>Do the EQ2 writers read Dragonlance? :smileyhappy:</DIV>

Kamimura
02-13-2005, 04:47 AM
<DIV>I would think magic doesnt come from the Gods. The Gods are silent in EQL and magic works all the same still. Mage types probably wouldnt think their magic comes from Gods, but from knowledge and within themselves. Conjurers might see it as taking power from the elements, wizards types as well. Priest/paladin/SK types might say their power is from the Gods, but really it is more their faith which moves them and gives them power. Maybe from nature with the druids. Fighters and scouts are using the new combat skills from the ashen order. Also, it's not too much of a suprise that over a span of 500 years new skills, fighting styles, and magics would appear and things would change.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Kamimura on <span class=date_text>02-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:47 PM</span>

Bur
02-13-2005, 04:58 AM
Dragonlance spoilers below.Actually, as it were, the magic in dragonlance was -always- from the gods. Takhisis claims to have created the wild magic and the necromantic magic that Dalamar has. The only time her claim is refuted is when Goldmoon dies (I don't recall the passage exactly but she 'feels' that the magic is not tainted, that it's from Paladine or Mishakal.) and the counterclaim still is placing the magic as 'from a god'. Just for note, the necromantic magic is infact from Takhisis indirectly (she is stealing the "wild" magic with the dead.A much larger difference is that in EQ2's lore the gods actually leave by choice really. In Dragonlance the gods don't leave at all. Takhisis steals the world away when noone else is looking. There are many more places where they are intirely divergant. The only place they are truely alike is in that there is a cataclysm. The reasons are intirely different. The point being that it dosen't really seem ripped off, per say.

WarderDrag
02-13-2005, 05:35 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kamimura wrote:<BR> <DIV>I would think magic doesnt come from the Gods. The Gods are silent in EQL and magic works all the same still. Mage types probably wouldnt think their magic comes from Gods, but from knowledge and within themselves. Conjurers might see it as taking power from the elements, wizards types as well. Priest/paladin/SK types might say their power is from the Gods, but really it is more their faith which moves them and gives them power. Maybe from nature with the druids. Fighters and scouts are using the new combat skills from the ashen order. Also, it's not too much of a suprise that over a span of 500 years new skills, fighting styles, and magics would appear and things would change.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Kamimura on <SPAN class=date_text>02-12-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:47 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>*nods*</P> <P>I was thinking that mages believed that their magic came from somewhere within. What I was wondering is if magic had come from one source in EverQuestLive, and had some sort of other source now that magic has appeared to have changed dramatically over the past 500 years? I didnt know if there was some identified source of the newer magic, and that of the old, or if they were the same, only that the spells of old were lost and that new ones were discovered to fit the new classes and class roles? In Dragonlance, magic I believe was drawn upon from sources that the three gods of magic controled (since their departure stripped the mages themselves of magic, but some old magic still remained within the artifacts of old), and other universes had their own sources such as the Weave (Forgotten Realms) and the Ether (Ultima), yet I have seen no information or lore pertaining to Norraths source.</P> <P>I also wonder where the Clerical powers of those who worship the gods work? I know Mystic's draw upon their powers from the Grey Planes and the spirits of the Dead, while Druids draw their power from the earth and plants. If it is the faith of the ShadowKnights, Paladins, and Clerics that drive them and fuel their powers, then would their powers in essence be in many ways tied to magic if it comes from within? Without the influence of the Gods, wouldnt it be little more than magic? How did the Gods impact the powers of Clerics before and after the Shattering and the withdrawl of their influence?</P>

TheWays
02-13-2005, 09:24 AM
<DIV>The gods have always been the source of mortals power, even in EQ2 such magic and power still exists.  In EQLive, the gods are silent, but they are still there.  The "council" has not come together in that universe yet and the world has not been torn asunder by the absence of the elemental gods presence.  Their sphere of influence is just as strong today in EQLive as it was on release if not stronger.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Since the gods have completely left the realm of Norrath, there has been a sharp decline in power in mortals and I would say that an alternate way of manupulating the power present in Norrath itself has evolved.  Norrath itself is a place of great magic and power, it is what has drawn the gods here in the first place.  Its the reason Veeshan swiped it with her claws and Brell conspired with the other gods to lay claim to it as well.  With out the gods none of the races or creatures of Norrath would exist.  Sure, you can say that mortals have always drawn their power from the world around them, but that is simply untrue.  The gods have always interviened in the mortals existance to "show" them the way and provide their power directly (at least from a priest class point of view)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The most powerful magics have also always been derived from holy artifacts in some way associated by the gods or possibly even directly created by the gods or touched by the divine.  Even today, mystics will use totems of gods to invoke magical powers (clerical and arcane).  While the gods have left Norrath, I believe their sphere of influence and power is still felt today, also keep in mind that they have not completely abandoned their creations - otherwise they would have simply killed us all off 500 years ago.</DIV>

Bur
02-13-2005, 10:13 AM
I also got the impression that while the gods weren't as present as they were before they were infact still around. I've also always believed (although i'm not sure it has any real source) that norraths "int based" and "wis based" magic are intirely different. I've always understood priest magic to be asking a boon of a god, where as int magic is more commanding some force (wherever it's from) to do your bidding. It seems far fetched to imagine with that understanding that priests could operate with the gods totally withdrawn.

Linkdead_Phoen
02-15-2005, 03:56 AM
<DIV>I would say that the magic from the mages and wizards would pretty much come from themselves but I can't quite figure out the spells that use divine powers.  It would seem to me that since the gods left they would no longer bless the individuals with divine powers.</DIV>

WarderDrag
02-16-2005, 07:26 AM
<DIV>I made a new mage just a few days ago, and when I got to the end of Niksel's Quest last night, it gave me a little enlightenment into how magic works (I had paid only a little attention the first time around). It appears that the three classes of magic are actually much different. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorcerers (and there subclasses) are able to harness raw elemental power, thus suggesting the power to control comes within, but the actual magic comes from the world around them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Summoners are able to see the gaps in reality, where the pieces of reality dont quite fit togeather, and are able to manipulate these holes to create.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Enchanters, it didnt say that much on, other than it appeared that they have the power to see into others minds and manipulate reality for those around them, and to the observer, these spells are are as potent as the real thing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, as I understand it, the three classes have the simular ability to see and use their powers within to manipulate that that is not within, thus producing the desired effect. What I am wondering is if the mages of the old days affected magic any differently, since there are changes in the spells achieved, how you gain the powers you possess, and so fourth, and how, with the absence of the gods, the Clerics still maintain their powers. Faith seems to be a key factor.</DIV>

Maguu
02-27-2005, 02:29 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheWays wrote:<BR> <DIV>The gods have always been the source of mortals power, even in EQ2 such magic and power still exists.  In EQLive, the gods are silent, but they are still there.  The "council" has not come together in that universe yet and the world has not been torn asunder by the absence of the elemental gods presence.  Their sphere of influence is just as strong today in EQLive as it was on release if not stronger.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Since the gods have completely left the realm of Norrath, there has been a sharp decline in power in mortals and I would say that an alternate way of manupulating the power present in Norrath itself has evolved.  Norrath itself is a place of great magic and power, it is what has drawn the gods here in the first place.  Its the reason Veeshan swiped it with her claws and Brell conspired with the other gods to lay claim to it as well.  With out the gods none of the races or creatures of Norrath would exist.  Sure, you can say that mortals have always drawn their power from the world around them, but that is simply untrue.  The gods have always interviened in the mortals existance to "show" them the way and provide their power directly (at least from a priest class point of view)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The most powerful magics have also always been derived from holy artifacts in some way associated by the gods or possibly even directly created by the gods or touched by the divine.  Even today, mystics will use totems of gods to invoke magical powers (clerical and arcane).  While the gods have left Norrath, I believe their sphere of influence and power is still felt today, also keep in mind that they have not completely abandoned their creations - otherwise they would have simply killed us all off 500 years ago.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I have to call you on this one, I disagree completely, in fact the onyl time I can think of a person losing their pwer from a deity was when it was directly given in the case of the EQ1 wizard epic.  It was widely discussed in the EQ1 lore forum,  my opinion is that the gods do not provide the power, only represent it.  As for healers, as an example, in EQ1, very few, if any spells a cleric used were named after a god in any way.  Spells, for that matter were not made by the gods, the possible exception being the godess of magic, Druzzil Ro.  Many spells were made by man, likely inspired by a god, such as Shroud of Luclin, Blood of Thule, Strike Of Sousek, etc.  For certain, I can assure you none of these gods used any of these spells named after them, in the game Everquest 1. Some were also named after people, a popular one with the realase of Planes of power, was spells named after the Sol Ro mini bosses - of 5 bosses,  Arlyxir, Guardian of Dresolik(Dresolik being the Doomsday stone that would destroy life on Norrath), Jiva, Rizlona, Xuzl, the spells were Taers of Arlyxir, Draught of Jiva, Sword of Xuzl, and the last one being a bard song named after Rizlona, herself a bard. The rest were wizard spells. So, really, there is nothing to link the ability to use magic with the permission, or even presence of a god, except the ignorant assumption it must be from them.</P> <P>Why would a god, espeically, for example, Rallos Zek, or Solusek Ro idley let you kill them when you are directly interfering with their plans to wipe out your race from Norrath?  You can walk in and kill Solusek Ro, theoretically preventing him from invading Norrath, but your wizards and mages can still nuke him with spells named after him?  Your shaman can still cast on Rallos Zek, even if hes a Ogre who worships Rallos (Ogres were made by Rallos).  Lets not forget (although this is getting off topic) that races made by the same deities even fight each other, despite the fact that many of these gods would want unity within their own races for the simple reason they are peaceful, or possiby to have a more co-ordinated effort against an opposing god.  </P> <P>Examples would be Shissar fighting Iksar (both made by CT) </P> <P>Dark Elves who worship other deities besides Innoruuk being shunned by DE's instead of being killed (only a small faction of clerics were hostile to these *heretics*). </P> <P>On the other hand, as far as I remember, ALL high elves worshipped Tunare (Correct me if I'm wrong?)</P> <P>All frogloks worship Mithaniel, NO barbarians worship Mithaniel or Erolissi(Their Craetors) (Am I wrong here?) but most or all barbarian shamans worshipped the Tribunal.</P>

Stormreaver
03-19-2005, 07:16 AM
<P>All magic in the EQ universe comes from the planes of power - not the gods of Influence. Those gods indeed have left, but the only effect they had on magic aside from direct intervention was in the minds of the people who worshipped them. Those ideals still exist today - Druids still revere nature and paladins still revere valour and truth, that is what affects the spells they use. It still all comes from the Triumverate, who are still happily overseeing creation. In terms of specifics, Conjurers just pull things out of the Elemental Planes, Sorcs just convert raw mana into energy, and Encahnters use mana to affect the minds of others. Priest magic is rituallized casting - it doesn't need the conecntration that arcane magic does, all it needs is belief ,and those set of beleifs will give them the magic. If a priest worshipped the God of Cookies , I imagine they'd get some very tasty spells. </P> <P>Arcanic Combat refers to the spell like abilities of the melee classes. This was starting to appear in EQ1 as Endurance based skills - now its completely taken over.</P> <p>Message Edited by Stormreaver on <span class=date_text>03-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:17 PM</span>

Sorvani
03-19-2005, 11:41 PM
as for the loss of things like teleportation, the gods shut that down when they invaded the nexus. no mortal has worked out a way around it yet. now the loss of levitation and no fly spells (now that the engine supports 3 axis to a degree) is simply a decision forced on us by design. they didn't want to have to deal with a 3rd axis in combat and encounter design. <div></div>

aiyl
03-26-2005, 12:18 AM
EQL players used the magic from within and it was perhaps enhanced by the gods - many believed it was <b>derived </b>from the gods, but it was really from within (explaining the great casters who were agnostics). The recent events shattered that belief system (as catastrophies usually do). - Before, High Elves couldn't be druids, so entrenched was their belief that magic came from the gods.  This belief was so pervasive that even agnostics restricted themselves from learning "forbidden" (not the right word I want, but I think it works) magic. Now we know differently.  In short, to survive, people picked up bits of magic from different disciplines and learned about the artificial limits. In short, now you rely on your own inner magic channeled into whichever discipline you desire, whether you still call it faith or whatever. btw, Ebayers were clueless and relied on the gods alone.  When the gods left, the Ebayers naturally died out. (There was quite the celebration) <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

aiyl
03-26-2005, 12:26 AM
<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>TheWays wrote:...<div>The gods have always interviened in the mortals existance to "show" them the way and provide their power directly (at least from a priest class point of view)</div><div> ...</div><div>The most powerful magics have also always been derived from holy artifacts in some way associated by the gods or possibly even directly created by the gods or touched by the divine.  Even today, mystics will use totems of gods to invoke magical powers (clerical and arcane)....</div><hr></blockquote>The gods may have shown mortals the way, but that doesn't mean they provided the source of the magic.  They just knew of the magic and led the mortals to it. (This is why the mortals gained what they did - if the magic was derived from the gods, why would the gods let them use it against them?)Nor does the naming of a totem to a god mean that the power came from the god.  It's just the way mortals honored or thanked the gods.edit: bah, repeating what Maguu said - that's what I get for not reading the entire posting before posting!</span><a target="_blank" href="../view_profile?user.id=153563"><span></span></a><span></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by aiyl on <span class="date_text">03-25-2005</span><span class="time_text">11:31 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by aiyl on <span class=date_text>03-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:31 AM</span>