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View Full Version : Tried to pertend EQoa didn't exist but can't anymore


iceriven2
01-04-2005, 12:12 PM
Hello i was one of those peeps that pertended Eqoa didn't happened and had nothing to do with EQ2 nothin matched up in my opinion. But today i was talking to some high elf in castleview and he gave some history on why he came to qeynos. He was looking for feyspire(spelling) the high elf city in EQoa the one they lived in before packing up and moving. So to all those who like lore on EQ2 u must include the history in EQoa. Even though its kinda outa place with EQlive

Kamotrack
01-04-2005, 12:39 PM
<DIV>EQ:OA Occurred 500 Years before the Age of Turmoil, aka EQLive.  EQ2 takes place 500 years later than EQ Live.  So not really out of place, but EQ2 incorporates some things covered in EQ:OA that have/did not make an appearance in EQLive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But basically, a bunch of lore for both games in one consolidated location would be wonderful.  Heck, even publish a book, people would buy it.</DIV>

troodon311
01-04-2005, 03:41 PM
<DIV>Just because he was looking for it doesn't mean it existed.  People are still today running around the Congo looking for Mokele-Mbembe. :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't have so much a problem with EQoA so long as I pretend that it happened a lot longer ago than 1000 years (500 years from EQ1).  That gives the Elves more time to live on Faydwer and to be present during Rile's attempted invasion... then again there are still those Erudites outside of Qeynos.... :smileysad:</DIV>

Eb0n
01-04-2005, 07:57 PM
Well as EQoA was my first experiance with EQ I am a bit biased and I even have a mention of it in my characters Bio. As for a comprhensive history of Norath check out the EQ roleplaying game main book it gives a history and the other books give history on select cities and locations. Like Lucan's deal with the dismal rage church that if he ever Dies he comes back as a lich-warrior! All Hail the Overlord!!!P.S. the age of EQoA is the Age of Enlightenment by the sword and sorcery EQ roleplaying game book and the last age ie:EQlive was the Age of Legend. All the books Info was based on SOE's "bible" of EQ.

Jaron
01-04-2005, 08:10 PM
<DIV>Denying EQOA lore is whimsical and silly.  It's SOE, it's EQ, it's Norrath, it's canon.  It's not like the "Codex of War" beta lore that all the elitists always denounce (loudly and often).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A lot of stuff in EQOA doesn't always match up perfectly with EQLive.  Just like a lot of stuff in EQ2 doesn't match up with EQLive.  There will be discrepancies, but it doesn't make the lore any less valid.  In fact, if the lore junkies around here were half as serious as most of them take themselves, they'd log in and play EQOA too, if only for the sake of seeing the "prequel" state of Norrath in that time period.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Erudites were just leaving Antonica, the Elddar Forest was on its last legs, there were dwarves still in Moradhim, gnomes still in Klick'Anon, living clerics and paladins in Befallen, and places like Qeynos & Freeport were practically just villages.</DIV>

Jooneau
01-04-2005, 08:24 PM
Whether or not something is canon is irrelevant if it isn't consistent.

Du
01-04-2005, 09:41 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jooneau wrote:<BR>Whether or not something is canon is irrelevant if it isn't consistent.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Give an example of real life mythos that <EM>is </EM>consistent. Just because it's inconsistent doesn't mean it can't help you understand a cultural tradition. You can play EQ2 without bothering with lore if you don't think it's fun. You don't even have to read through the chat bubbles when questing. I think it's fun though and see it as part of the content.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV>

epic486
01-05-2005, 12:33 AM
<DIV>exactly. our modern age has spoiled alot of people in thinking consistency is the rule, as opposed to the exception. we're talking about a game and story that spans more than a thousand years, when record keeping is imperfect, and often tainted by personal bias. things are not going to match up smoothly. life, and history, aren't that easy. things develope on seperate, parallel lines all the time. just because most people think one thing is true doesn't make it so, and just because most people believe one thing, doesn't mean other people won't believe something else...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>also, as for the beta lore being denounced, i think everyone here is missing a real big thing. as i stated, some lore is going to develope seperate, people are going to want and wish for things to be different. for instance, everyone seems to get really upset about the troll lore fanfic that states innoruk created the trolls from humans, and abondoned them on kunark. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i see this as a very plausible sentiment for agnostic, or rallosian trolls, those who wish to escape both the involvement of cazic-thule and innoruk. it explains that cazic-thule never had anything to do with the race, and it shows that innoruk abondoned them. why follow gods who abondoned you? however, the trolls did hold off the ogres attempts to push them back into the ocean of tears, and then, the story shows acceptance, even if it was a harsh acceptance by the ogres. shows rallos in a really positive light.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EQ has no central storyline, and just because some lore is dupped 'official', doesn't make other lore any less important, or more worthy of bashing.</DIV>

Jaron
01-05-2005, 02:28 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jooneau wrote:<BR>Whether or not something is canon is irrelevant if it isn't consistent.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Sometimes a little suspension of disbelief and a lot of imagination can go a long way. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>It may not all line up nice & pretty like a jigsaw puzzle, but we do have plenty of pieces to work with and they shouldn't all be dismissed on account of them being a little inconsistent.  Sometimes we need to go ahead and jam some of them into place, even if they don't quite fit right. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></DIV>

Lok
01-17-2005, 10:53 PM
<DIV>Doesnt EQOA take place 1000 years before EQL? I thot I remembered reading that in the manual....not that it makes a difference.</DIV>

BLOODka
01-18-2005, 07:40 PM
<DIV>The inconsistancies of EQOA keep it from being canon. The main thing being the Erudites and Highbourne.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If they would have just made it like EQLive cities and OG Continents but...OLDER that would have made sense. I can see how Klick'Anon would have gone under the lava and some gnomes remain there in EQLive. Moradihm may have just been a little outpost of Kaladim. Fayspire....not gonna get into this really...it exhisted but it was part of the old Eldaar Forest not up near Winter's Deep.</DIV>

Madroxci
01-18-2005, 09:43 PM
<DIV>BLOODKane wrote "If they would have just made it like EQLive cities and OG Continents but...OLDER that would have made sense."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why make a new game totally like a game thats already out, one thing i like about norrath is it is always changing.</DIV>

BLOODka
01-18-2005, 11:36 PM
<DIV>Yeah but do the devs have NO communication between themselves when developing these games? I mean at least stay with your own lore.</DIV>

Madroxci
01-18-2005, 11:40 PM
<DIV>i hope not because if they did they might just recreate the first game, there is some different lore yes, but if you think in the terms of lore there is also many years of difference, in eqlive all of the lore didn't add up in it so in 1 single game they did the same which you are speaking of.</DIV>

MysticTrunks01
01-19-2005, 01:51 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jooneau wrote:<BR>Whether or not something is canon is irrelevant if it isn't consistent.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>How where the pyramids built with nothing but archaic tools and why is it that the people of today, with all our machines and computers can't find a low tech way to make them?  Or why the pyramids of the Mayans are similiar in structure and build to the Egyptians.</P> <P>How was stonehedge built?</P> <P>El Chupacabra?  Big Foot?  Lachness?  Eskimos?</P> <P>There are still things that don't add up in our world, so a little suspension of a games lore would be good.  We know that many of these things exist (last examples exluded) we see them, touch them, pay money to have our pictures taken.. but we have no idea HOW.  It isn't consistent, but it is canon.</P>

Jaron
01-31-2005, 12:05 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BLOODkane wrote:<BR> <DIV>Yeah but do the devs have NO communication between themselves when developing these games? I mean at least stay with your own lore.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> What server did you play on in OA?

BLOODka
02-01-2005, 09:04 AM
<DIV>I beta tested OA (all three phases) and beta tested Frontiers.</DIV>

Vesp
02-01-2005, 11:28 AM
<DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>I played EQOA for over a year, so to me, it's more valid than anything in EQ PC, which I only tried out briefly.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And the High Elves are in the Fayspires near Winter's Deep in EQOA because they just lost the war in their previous home, referred too as Takish Hiz. When you go there, the place is swarming with Delf's. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You also might wanna read up a bit on the lore section on the EQOA site.</DIV>

Jaron
02-01-2005, 01:20 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BLOODkane wrote:<BR> <DIV>I beta tested OA (all three phases) and beta tested Frontiers.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>So then you're aware that the Erudites in Highbourne found a special pearl in the ocean that turned out to be a prized possession of Prexus?  And Prexus didn't like the Erudites having it, and got angry at their arrogance for having "stolen" it?  And Prex decided to send a minion or avatar of his to punish the Erudites by destroying them, but he first forewarned his faithful by sending a vision of the destruction to one of the Fathomstalkers (who you can talk to on the beach outside Highbourne, and he'll tell you this whole story)?  And the Erudites hired gnomish engineers to help construct a ship or fleet of ships to carry the Erudites away to the west (to Odus)?  Highbourne was quite likely razed by Prexus' wrath.  The Erudites with enough foresight to sail away from there obviously went on to prosper in their new home on Odus.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Admittedly, I didn't play much EQL.  What does it say about the Erudites' history that makes you hate Highbourne so much?</DIV>

Jaron
02-01-2005, 01:22 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vespaa wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>I played EQOA for over a year, so to me, it's more valid than anything in EQ PC, which I only tried out briefly.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Same here, though I only played it for a few months until SWG came out.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But I don't understand all the hate for EQOA lore.  It's not like it's the "Codex of War" or whatever. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

Aion
02-01-2005, 07:14 PM
<blockquote><hr>Jaron95 wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>BLOODkane wrote:<BR><DIV>I beta tested OA (all three phases) and beta tested Frontiers.</DIV><BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><DIV>So then you're aware that the Erudites in Highbourne found a special pearl in the ocean that turned out to be a prized possession of Prexus? And Prexus didn't like the Erudites having it, and got angry at their arrogance for having "stolen" it? And Prex decided to send a minion or avatar of his to punish the Erudites by destroying them, but he first forewarned his faithful by sending a vision of the destruction to one of the Fathomstalkers (who you can talk to on the beach outside Highbourne, and he'll tell you this whole story)? And the Erudites hired gnomish engineers to help construct a ship or fleet of ships to carry the Erudites away to the west (to Odus)? Highbourne was quite likely razed by Prexus' wrath. The Erudites with enough foresight to sail away from there obviously went on to prosper in their new home on Odus.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Admittedly, I didn't play much EQL. What does it say about the Erudites' history that makes you hate Highbourne so much?</DIV><hr></blockquote>Someone correct me if I am wrong (I stopped playing EQ1 just before the second expansion was released) but I think the problem that players of EQ1 have with Highbourne is that it just doesnt exist in the original lore, and its inclusion from OA contradicts the original story of Erud and his followers.

Jaron
02-01-2005, 08:49 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> Aion wrote:<BR></P> <P>Someone correct me if I am wrong (I stopped playing EQ1 just before the second expansion was released) but I think the problem that players of EQ1 have with Highbourne is that it just doesnt exist in the original lore, and its inclusion from OA contradicts the original story of Erud and his followers.<BR> <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>That's what I meant to ask.  What's the original story of Erud and his followers?</DIV>

Aion
02-01-2005, 09:51 PM
That basically a Man named Erud took his followers acros the sea and settled Erudin. It was there that all the events happened that shaped them into what there are in game.In fact, the enitre History of the Erudites book in the EQ2 fails to mention Highbourne at all, and has the race settles on Odus in the second paragraph.

Xalbus
02-01-2005, 11:52 PM
<DIV>Legend says Romulus and Remus created Rome, Towns all through the midwest have their "founder" who started the town and named it after himself etc. Even though we say these things, its not possible for 2 brothers to have created a city such as Rome by themselves. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So it's not that far of a stretch to place Erud in the role of "founder" and one of the leaders of the expedition, a face in the crowd that set off in the gnomish ships before the fall of Highbourne. He is a gifted leader who begins to organize the rebuilding effort and then takes on the role of patron saint to the refugees and begins to direct the building of their new home.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Legend then places him as the near mythical creator of Erudin and the saviour of his people. By the time EQ:L rolls around his legend has taken on a Demi God quality that has him single handedly saving his people, when the reality is he was nothing more than a man gifted with the ability to micro-manage his subordinates who was in the right place at the right time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Or Erud might not even exist, Erud could be a mythical amalgamation of several Erudite hero's from EQOA who founded their new home. Its also not much or a stretch to think that over time and retelling the bards who retold the story emebelished it a little more each time until say 4 men became 1 superman who is credited with the creation of Erudin. Bards are notorious for this kind of thing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Much in the way that a lot of historians now believe King Arthur was potentially a combination of several men rather than a god like High King (just saying thats the prevaling theory now, not agreeing or disagreeing).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Legend changes over time, just because EQ:L didn't mention something or didn't match the events of EQOA doesn't immediatley invalidate it. What is known in EQ:L is the legend of Erud, what happens in EQOA is the reality of it. So Highbourne is lost from the records and the exodus of the Erudites becomes a mythical journey.</DIV>

Jaron
02-02-2005, 06:46 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xalbus wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Legend changes over time, just because EQ:L didn't mention something or didn't match the events of EQOA doesn't immediatley invalidate it. <STRONG>What is known in EQ:L is the legend of Erud, what happens in EQOA is the reality of it.</STRONG> So Highbourne is lost from the records and the exodus of the Erudites becomes a mythical journey.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I like how you put it.  That's about how I feel when it comes to the EQL vs. EQOA debate.  I feel like "I was there as it happened!"  Some events have been glossed over, some have been nearly rewritten entirely, some have become hearsay and conjecture, but what happened in EQOA is the "reality" of the fantasy, and everything else is someone else's "version of the truth", the story that they want to survive into history.</DIV>

Xalbus
02-03-2005, 02:24 AM
<DIV>I posted this in another thread, more in depth about what I mean when I say Reality vs Legend</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>As for EQOA and EQL lore, as I said before in another thread, in terms of RP value, stories, legends and histories become changed and distorted as they are retold, new tellers put their twist on it, histories are skewed to favor the faction of the writer, etc. Especially in a time before digital media, which EQ is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Many inconsitencies can be easily explained away as being changed through the decades as its told and retold. Erud becomes 1 man when in fact he might have been several men, cities are omitted from the telling because their legend might inspire people when inspiration is not wanted.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What happens then in a sense is that EQOA is the "Reality" of what happened and the history in EQ:L is the result of 500 years of distortions and retellings.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Take King Arthur for instance. Common legend holds he is 1 man, modern belief is skewed towards him being an amalgam of several men who's accomplishments are combined to create an inspirational perfect King. This story is used to direct people's beliefs and actions to a certain path (Chivalry) as they are encouraged to "Be Like Arthur". Think of it as ancient propoganda. Its easier to follow 1 man than a group of men. 1 man has a clear vision and path in front of him. A group has their overall agenda but each member has his own sub agenda. Its easier to rally the masses to 1 man than 4 men.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Much the way Kennedy became a great president as his "legend" expanded, He becomes a visionary who led us to the moon and promoted "Ask not what your country can do for you..." (Wow there is a blatant peice of propganda id I ever saw one) rather than a man who A) Cheated on his wife B) Led is into Vietnam and C) almost started a nuclear war and D) had questionable ties to organized crime.</DIV> <DIV>So the Highbourne who fled become the Erudites, the leaders of the exodus become Erud the superhuman uniter and saviour of his people.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Granted my knowledge of EQOA lore is limited BUT its not about the specifics of the lore but about why the lore might not match 100%. We see lore as gospel truth, we are used to digital media that can perfectly preserve the speaches for the future. But what about lore from the 1300s? If we knew 100% of everything that went on, we would not need historians. We have speculation, commonly accepted theories and rumor. In game the lore from EQOA would be considerably distorted in EQ:L so you cannot take EQ:L lore as 100 truth, same as EQ2 lore of EQL is not always 100%.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV>

BLOODka
02-04-2005, 01:37 AM
<DIV>You fail to understand. EQOA didnt come out until almost 4 years since EQLive had been out. Therefore the lore on that game should have stayed in tact with lore of EQLive. It isnt the case of being retold over 500 years. It is about being correct with your lore you already have.</DIV>

Xalbus
02-04-2005, 04:19 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BLOODkane wrote:<BR> <DIV>You fail to understand. EQOA didnt come out until almost 4 years since EQLive had been out. Therefore the lore on that game should have stayed in tact with lore of EQLive. It isnt the case of being retold over 500 years. It is about being correct with your lore you already have.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>and your missing my point</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regardless of when the VIDEO GAME EQ:L and EQOA came out, the events of EQ:OA precede EQ:L, there for its a perfectly acceptable explanation for the discrepencies. EQ:OA happens 500 years before EQ:L. In an RP environment stories get told, retold and embelished, the LEGENDS of EQ:L regarding the era of EQ:OA bear a passing resemblence to what "really" happened.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is not an off the wall concept. It happens in real life, a vast mojority of what we know about our own history is speculation, heresay and conjecture. Often times based on nothing more than legends.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A GOOD RPer could easily make the conclusion that the Lore concerning EQ:OA's era as it appears in EQ:L is not 100% accurate. Just because you as a real person know the stories don't match and that it was perfectly feasible for them to write the EQ:OA game to match 100% the lore of EQ:L doesn't mean they have to.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'll say it again, stories change, a lack of digital media virtually guarantees that no 2 tellings of the legend of Erud will be the same in an RP environment. Bard A will tell the story one way in Qeynos and Bard B will tell it differently in Freeport while Bard C on Odus tells it yet another way. None of which are 100% accurate to the "reality" of what happened.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you remove the RL aspect from your argument and focus on the RP aspect (which after all who else but RPers care about the lore) of it and place yourself in your characters position. He/she inhabits a world of oral histories. </DIV> <DIV><BR>In a real world society that matches the level of technology of the EQ world (magic non withstanding) Bards where the primary means of passing on stories. Traveling bards would go from place to place telling stories, changing them a little here and there to make them more interesting to the local populace (IE a knight who was born in Wales suddenly becomes a knight born in Scotland when the bard is in Scotland)</DIV> <DIV><BR>Thus the legends of Norrath are changed over the centuries, no two tellings are ever 100% the same. In the end the story bears only a passing resemblance to what happened in reality.</DIV>

BLOODka
02-04-2005, 09:37 AM
<DIV>But you see, the game came out BEFORE the other, therefore the EQLive lore is the correct one and any game based off of it should coincide with the lore it represents.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You are just "assuming" that people muddled the lore over the years, when in fact it was sloppy communication between devs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you really want to get technical, read up on the EQLive lore about the Dwarves and Elves. During the first Rallosian Empire (way before OA) the Ogres fought a war with the Dwarves in KALADIM (which is on Faydwer) and the Elves had long traveled to Faydwer and the Faydark long before EQOA times. It isnt so much the fact the lore, it is the inconsistant timelines.</DIV><p>Message Edited by BLOODkane on <span class=date_text>02-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:39 PM</span>

elimit
02-04-2005, 09:16 PM
<DIV> <DIV>I cannot comment on the dwarves, but it is my understanding that the elves in Fayspire are in the process of building the spires in order to join the rest of the elves in Faydwer.  That would work with the idea that the elves had already moved, but a small faction of them remained on the main continent.</DIV></DIV>

Aion
02-04-2005, 10:12 PM
Just to pipe in here... it is PRIMARILY the timeline which is the issue...EQ: OA takes place 500 years before the age of turmoil (EQ1), correct?Ok.. now we have a lot of talk about oral traditions and bards passing down legends and the muddling of stories ect ect.. ---which is a valid argument---BUT500 years is less than the average lifespan of all the elder races. These are therefore not stories passed down in EQ1. The elves and dwarves and gnomes who tell the tales were alive when it happened (Odus and Erud or Highbourne)Add to that the fact that The elves and the Erudites are a scholorly, intellectual races, as in they DOCUMENT and scribe. They would not rely on oral tradition as some here suggest. That is something the barbarians, ogres and trolls would do.I do beleive it was just bad research on the part of the OA team. Everything would make some more sense if it were strechted out a little more over the generations of the elder races.Now, personally, I never played OA, but when I started reading some of the lore from it, at first i was really confused, then I got a little angry. Suddenly all theses wars were added, and Norrathian history WAS rewritten for this game. 500 years is less than 1 generation of elves. When EQ1 started, they had been at Felewithe and Kelethin for GENERATIONS. The original released creation story had the dwarves in Kaladin since their creation. How did all the elves and dwarves forget all this when most in the game were alive when EQ: OA supposedly happened? Not one elf in EQ1 (high, wood, or dark) says they were there when life was grand on Tunaria, or when things turned sour and the trees died in the Eldar forest which was why they left.Therefore, the new fabricated lore from EQ: OA wouldn't be so bad if it had been, say 1500-2000 years before EQ1, but 500 years makes this lore implausible when held next to the history and lore of the original game

Lastdeadmouse
02-04-2005, 11:27 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> </P> <P>Heck, even publish a book, people would buy it.<BR></P> <P> <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> I second that.<BR>

BLOODka
02-05-2005, 12:22 AM
<DIV>Well EQOA stayed good with Dark Elven lore, when Inny corrupted the High Elves to make Dark Elves they found Freeport as a Dark Elven city, but later migrated North into Nektulos Forest and forged an underfoot citadel of Neriak. I can see the Fayspire thing as the remaining Tunarian elves waiting to go over to Faydwer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I cannot accept are the Dwarven, Gnomish and Erudite lores in EQOA.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Morahdim or whatever was never mentioned, it never once said Dwarves EVER lived on Tunaria they were created in the Underfoot and their first city to emerge was Kaladim. Now Morahdim may have been an outpost on Tunaria but in 500 years it COMPLETELY dissapears and not ONE SHRED of evidence? Hmm?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Gnomes of Klick'Anon in Lavastorm could be the Gnomes in Lavastorm in EQ1, but I doubt it. Again no record of them existing on Tunaria, ever. But the volcanos could have desimated Klick'Anon who knows.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Erudites are the main thing of EQOA lore, they could have had them either start in Qeynos (which at this point in EQ History they were in Qeynos) and preparing to move to Odus, OR have Arcadin/Erudin already in the process of being built.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They did make some ground with Frontiers and the Odus addon but the existance of Paineel and Arcadin (Erudin) when there were STILL Erudites on Tunaria was well...odd.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again, timelines are the main issue.</DIV>

Vesp
02-10-2005, 01:22 AM
<DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>Wow, looks like I got a visit from the One Star Troll, for just stating my opinion on something... lol.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I wish you could see who gave you the rating. e.e</DIV>

Thraken
02-11-2005, 03:14 AM
<DIV>I honestly don't see any problem with the two histories.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Elves made their home in the Eldar Forest in the city of Tak'Hiz.  During the time of EQOA the city is easily found in the Desert.  In the city there are both Elves and Dark Elves fighing one another.  To the west of Tak'Hiz there is a small elven outpost in the small remaining part of the Eldar Forest known as Proudpine Outpost.  The home city of player Elves is a City called Feyspires and Thethelin.  In EQOA there is not a clear distinction between the wood elves and the high elves.  Those that would be high elves live in Feyspires.  Feyspires is built on a platform on top of Winters Deep.  In fact, if one were so inclinded, you could "float" the entire city of Feyspires on the lake.  To the north, the Elves, along with the help of the Dwarves, Gnomes, and some Humans are building Feyspire Gate.  Feyspire gate is built on winters deep and very much looks like Combine spires.  The city of Thethelin is on the southern shore of Winter's Deep and is just a tree house city.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When you complete one of the epics in EQOA that ends in the ruined city of Tak'Hiz, the final NPC is an Elf mage.  He tells you that he thanks you "on behave of [his] queen across the Ocean".  Since there is no Queen in Feyspires one can assume that the elves have already begun moving to Feydwar. (sp?)  Imagine if you had to move the governement and population of Texas to New Zeland?  First one might take over the leadership and key personel, but it certainly wouldn't be done in a period of a year, doubtful you could even do it in the space of a decade.  Unless you had some "magic" transporter.  I believe that is why, after being tossed out of Tak'Hiz, the elves stopped and built Feyspires.  Its safe, and there they have time to build a transport gate (Feyspire Gate) to carry the masses (maybe even the city of Fayspires itself) to the new world by floating them thru this gate.  And since it seems that the Dwarves and Gnomes are helping them with this Gate, why not give them a ride too?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for Klik'Anon, in the only xpac EQOA every got, they openned up Lavastorm.  The story was that the Gnomes from Klik'Anon had gotten a bit too currious about the mountain and had tunneled just a bit too far.  Now they are in grave danger of being overrun by the Goblins from Solusek's Eye.  I hear there is a Sol A and B in EQlive.  Maybe Sol B is the tunnels of Ancient Klik'Anon overrun with Goblins?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for Highbourne, others have touched on the fact that there is already very good lore about its inpending destruction in EQOA.  That and the fact that Eurdites have lifespans very similar to the humans they evolved from, its easy to see why their history might be a bit confused.  If you lived 200 years ago you might know George Washington as a whiskey distiller, who kept slaves and took up arms to avoid paying taxes.  These days we call him the Father of our Nation.  Imagine if it was 500 years ago?  We know Eurd as a guy who is trying to build a Utopian City on Odus called "Arcadin".  He wants Arcadin to be the center of commerce and learning in Norath, not a replacement for Highbourne.  He's a bit of a dreamer, but the Heritics from Highboure are building a new city called Paineel to avoid his goody-two-shoes new society, and to avoid hiding in the depths of Highbourne, and have a City of their own.</DIV>

Aion
02-11-2005, 07:45 PM
Ok, here is the problem again... time line..."In EQOA there is not a clear distinction between the wood elves and the high elves."So, in under 500 years the one race of good elves split into 2 very disctinct races of elves with both their own traditions, philosophies, and physical structure -- I mean VERY different physiology. This was done in UNDER 500 years when the lifespan of an elf is over 700 years?! In less than 1 elven generation!Next on to the Erud thing again... granted the life span of the humans/erudites is somewhat shorter, but if the 'truth' was distorted, manipulated through the human generations to turn into the 'untruth' that is EQ1 and EQ2 lore, you would have to assume that ALL of the elder races (elves, dwarves, gnomes) had NO CLUE about highbourne or what was going on in Qeynos, because they too can't seem to remember Highbourne in EQ1 and EQ2, though they remember the Combine Empire, just fine thank you very much.

elimit
02-11-2005, 09:04 PM
<DIV>Just because the different elven types weren't included, doesn't mean they did not exist.  Classes normally associated with Wood Elves started in Tethelin, while classes associated with High Elves begin in Fayspires.  That seems like a fairly reasonable distinction between the two regardless of whether it was specifically stated which race they were.. they were simply known as Elves.  Sure thats dumbing it down a bit, but it doesn't throw off the lore any.</DIV>

Aion
02-11-2005, 09:30 PM
<blockquote><hr>elimit wrote:<DIV>Just because the different elven types weren't included, doesn't mean they did not exist. Classes normally associated with Wood Elves started in Tethelin, while classes associated with High Elves begin in Fayspires. That seems like a fairly reasonable distinction between the two regardless of whether it was specifically stated which race they were.. they were simply known as Elves. Sure thats dumbing it down a bit, but it doesn't throw off the lore any.</DIV><hr></blockquote>It throws off the lore COMPLETLY. These are very distcint races, as disctinct from eachother as each of them are from dark-elves. So in LESS than one GENERATION they considered themsleves one race?Whatever. Those who played EQ OA can enjoy the lore from the game. But please don't try to manupulate your interpretation of that lore as something that is plausible with the original game lore that EQ2 is based on.It just doesn't gel. The major reason as stated earlier is that 500 years is not enough time for any of it to happen, ONLY because of the lifespan of the elder races. With the exception of the elves being one general race, it could easily work if all the races lived as long as humans, but that is not the case. In fact, in EQ2, the Koada'Dal still think of the humans as an 'upstart' race, (from The History of the Koada'dal).

elimit
02-11-2005, 10:26 PM
<DIV>The world is not black and white, nor are the reasons for possible changes.  Perhaps only calling them Elves was an attempt to curb the resources used on a limited platform such as the PS2.  I honestly can't say if that was the reason or not, but to assume the two different races didn't exist based on that is ludicrous.  There is a distinct difference in the way the two cities lived and anyone who has played the game would be aware of this.. perhaps you should give it a look.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not discounting the fact that there are some discrepancies in the storyline, but there is some gray area that needs to be taken into consideration.</DIV>

Vesp
02-13-2005, 11:59 PM
<DIV>BloodKane, the volcano's DID in fact destroy Klick 'Anon. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I played EQOA for well over a year, and if anyone has any questions about the lore or events or stories in that game, please feel free to ask me. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I had a 60 Channeler, and a 43 Bard, and was a member of a good raiding guild.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd also reccomend you to visit my guild's site for screenshots; <A href="http://www.Enigma-Marrsfist.com" target=_blank>www.Enigma-Marrsfist.com</A> Some of the better parts of EQOA are listed there, with many screen shots.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And about Klick 'Anon; When the game was first released, the Gnomes were just doing their tinkering in Klick 'Anon, life was normal, etc. But when the developer's released the expansion, EQOA: Frontiers, if you went to Klick 'Anon, Lava was literally raining down from the sky in small drops. And the Gnomes were branching out near Solusek's Eye.</DIV>

Vesp
02-14-2005, 12:14 AM
<DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>Oh, I'd also like to add that EQOA did in fact combine the Elven races because of limitations on the PS2 console.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And by the end of the game, Wood Elves DID look very different from High Elves. Wood Elf jobs weren't able to wear the same robes as High Elves would, and you could tell the difference in the end game. (High Elf jobs, like my Wizard would have very elegant robes and wands)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, you could customize the hair and hair colors, with a more messy looking hair do, probably better for a Wood Elf, like my Bard was, and a near one for a High Elf.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think you EQ 1 PC'ers need to lighten up. o.o</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Vesp
02-14-2005, 12:33 AM
<DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>"Next on to the Erud thing again... granted the life span of the humans/erudites is somewhat shorter, but if the 'truth' was distorted, manipulated through the human generations to turn into the 'untruth' that is EQ1 and EQ2 lore, you would have to assume that ALL of the elder races (elves, dwarves, gnomes) had NO CLUE about highbourne or what was going on in Qeynos, because they too can't seem to remember Highbourne in EQ1 and EQ2, though they remember the Combine Empire, just fine thank you very much."</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would like to just say that... If you haven't actually played EQOA yourself, you shouldn't try to generalize the events in the game like you know exactly what happened. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And here's what I personally think, based on the events in EQOA, regarding Erudites because I <FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG><EM>actually played it</EM></STRONG></FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Before the expansion came out, many Erudites DID live in Qeynos, as you could plainly see, but most lived in Highbourne. (Highbourne is RIGHT NEAR Qeynos anyway...) Erudites, being the most cocky and arrogant race on Norrath, always treated other races who came to their city like complete crap.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>From what I remember about the expansion, the Erudites, upon the release of the expansion, had angered the god Prexus. Outside of Highbourne there was a sacred pearl of Prexus within the ocean, guarded by some Prexian Crabs, and Prexus himself was none too happy at the arrogance of the Erudites, basically claiming this pearl for thier own. (I forget the details, so feel free to correct me here, EQOA'ers, I haven't played the game since October)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At this point, Odus and Arcadin (Erudin) was added in. The Erudites were in a complete state of terror, and, as some of the NPC's in the game stated themselves, they had gone too far, and greatly angered Prexus. Although they begged for his forgiveness, they had visions he was going to completely destroy Highbourne. (Which he did as we can see in EQ1 for the PC, it's completely gone, with no memory of it whatsoever...) So they branched out to Odus.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, here are my conclusions, based on the events on both games.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Erudites are, of course, the most arrogant race on Norrath. Even the "good" Erudites in Qey turn their nose up at you. My theory is that, Prexus' strike against the Erudites was the ultimate embaressment for this great race. They wanted to forget it ever happened, and they wanted all of Norrath to forget, too. Therefor, any historical record of it was completely wiped out, because the pride and vanity of the Erudites would never allow another race to mock them over something like this. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thank you! And if you're going to 1 star me for this post, please grow a backbone, and state why you did it.</DIV>

Aion
02-14-2005, 03:06 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vespaa wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would like to just say that... If you haven't actually played EQOA yourself, you shouldn't try to generalize the events in the game like you know exactly what happened. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And here's what I personally think, based on the events in EQOA, regarding Erudites because I <FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG><EM>actually played it</EM></STRONG></FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thank you! And if you're going to 1 star me for this post, please grow a backbone, and state why you did it.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I think that this is a fact I pointed out earlier.. I have no argument with the fact that I have generalized about what has been written -- specifiaclly what has been written and how it contradicts other things. That is what this is all about, no? It is a discussion based on our perseptions on a collection of fiction.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>About the one-star... it wasn't me. I gladly fess up when I do rate some one, and it defiantly wasn't me... but  I don't think anyone in here, unless they are being rude should rated anything less than 5. This helps us all understand more about the game, whether we are proven right or wrong</DIV>

BLOODka
02-14-2005, 06:33 PM
<DIV>I "played" EQOA too, I beta tested all three phases of the original and beta tested Frontiers, and played for a year until Frontiers release, I know the game's lore and even in beta there was uproar about the lore, it has been a problem since then.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I turned my rating system off, so I cant see nor vote on message ratings anyway.</DIV><p>Message Edited by BLOODkane on <span class=date_text>02-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:34 AM</span>

Linkdead_Phoen
02-15-2005, 03:50 AM
<DIV>As a player of both games I can deffinately say that the lore of both games do not match up sometimes but not so much that we should pretend EQOA didn't exist.  Since they were only including one continent and had to include Erudites they had to think up a city to put them in.  EAOA had to take some liberties with EQ's storyline.  Not all of EQ's lore even matches up with EQ let alone the other games.  Nothing is going to be 100% perfect when you're trying to build such a background for the world you play in.  There's bound to be plot holes and things we may have to overlook.  Afterall, this is a game not a real world.</DIV>

BLOODka
02-15-2005, 07:19 PM
<DIV>They didn't HAVE to include erudites, they didnt originally include Ogres and they combined elves, they could have waited until the expansion to put Erudites in and put them on Odus.</DIV>

Linkdead_Phoen
02-16-2005, 03:55 AM
<DIV>Now that you mention it maybe not but like I said before these games were developed by two different teams so not all their lore will match up.  I dont' even see why Ogres weren't included with the original EQOA.  If I remember correctly the home of the Ogres was on Antonica and not Odus in EQlive.  Is there some lore I'm missing?</DIV>

Aion
02-16-2005, 07:18 PM
<blockquote><hr>Linkdead_Phoenix wrote:<DIV>Now that you mention it maybe not but like I said before these games were developed by two different teams so not all their lore will match up. I dont' even see why Ogres weren't included with the original EQOA. If I remember correctly the home of the Ogres was on Antonica and not Odus in EQlive. Is there some lore I'm missing?</DIV><hr></blockquote>No you are not missing anything... this is why this argument exists... a second team 'expanded' upon the lore of the first and either:1) did not read all the lore originally in-place and acidentally created some major contadictions;2) Because of platform/and or other restrictions, had to 'skimp' on the lore and make it work ina dumbed-down type of norrath.I'm betting they did a bit of both.This is not to say they did not create some good stories or additions to the overall lore of the game, that may or may not have carried through into EQ1. But reading through this thread, it is hard to deny that its a little messed up in places.

Thraken
02-16-2005, 10:43 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Linkdead_Phoenix wrote:<BR> <DIV>Now that you mention it maybe not but like I said before these games were developed by two different teams so not all their lore will match up.  I dont' even see why Ogres weren't included with the original EQOA.  If I remember correctly the home of the Ogres was on Antonica and not Odus in EQlive.  Is there some lore I'm missing?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>In the first release of EQOA, the Ogres were not playable due to the fact that they were still in self impossed exisle.  After the Rallosian's failed attempt to invade the plane of underfoot, the council of Rathe placed a curse on all the creations of Rallos Zek.  The giants were scattered to the four corners of the world, and developed into fire, ice, hill, and other types.  The Orcs were divided into different tribes and split around the world, and the Ogres were struck dumb.  The Ogres had been the most favored of Rallos Zek's creations, and they were both physically strong and excellent battle tactitions.  With the curse of the council of Rathe, the Ogres lost their grasp on magic, organization, and tactics.  Due to their loss, they isolated themselves for hundreds of years from the rest of the world.  </P> <P>When EQOA:Frontiers came out, the Ogres were just begining to venture out into the world again.  Oggok was re-opened and players could see that it was nearly in ruins as the Ogres no longer were able to maintain it to its former glory.  While the Ogres had lost most of their knowledge, there were a few Ogre Necromancers still around, as it was the strongest of their magical traditions.  This knowledge was waining and would be gone by the time of EQLive.</P> <P>All of this fits perfectly in with the lore of EQ2.  Infact much of the lore leading upto EQ2's release was regarding how the Ogres' were slowly "waking up" from the curse of the Rathe, and rediscovering their prowess in magic and tactics.</P>

Kilaelya
02-20-2005, 10:41 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BLOODkane wrote:<BR> <DIV>The inconsistancies of EQOA keep it from being canon. The main thing being the Erudites and Highbourne.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If they would have just made it like EQLive cities and OG Continents but...OLDER that would have made sense. I can see how Klick'Anon would have gone under the lava and some gnomes remain there in EQLive. Moradihm may have just been a little outpost of Kaladim. <STRONG>Fayspire....not gonna get into this really...it exhisted but it was part of the old Eldaar Forest not up near Winter's Deep.</STRONG></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>In EQOA there was a big story about the old elf city called Takish'Xiz (I think, something close) that was down by where the Elddar forest was.<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit: Nvm, someone already mentioned it <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by Kilaelya on <span class=date_text>02-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:45 PM</span>

Kilaelya
02-20-2005, 11:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Linkdead_Phoenix wrote:<BR> <DIV>Now that you mention it maybe not but like I said before these games were developed by two different teams so not all their lore will match up.  I dont' even see why Ogres weren't included with the original EQOA.  If I remember correctly the home of the Ogres was on Antonica and not Odus in EQlive.  Is there some lore I'm missing?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>No, the Ogres weren't on Odus in EQOA. They were in the area know as the great unknown when the original came out, when Frontiers was released, the great unknown was found to be where the Rathe Mountains where. The great unknown in classic was behind a large mountain range, the only way two ways into the area at the time was guarded by hill giants and ogres.</DIV>

Ruil
02-20-2005, 03:59 PM
well to say something since i read alot of the lore and really like it. the holes in all the lore dosent make alot of sense but when you think about whats going on in the world of eqoq ot eq2 there are alot of massive wars and whatnot goin on do you think people would think "hmmm were being invaded lets grab the history books!" and i would think if anything was attacked and taken over or abanded by the elves they would burn the books or just leave them. the gnomes dosent bug me at all i can see the town of gnomes in lavastorm being thare and getting completly destroyed and there not being any (that i can remeber) lore about it being there.about the dwarfs i would just bet no one cared about this outpost so to say and i would think kaladim is there and just wanted to have a little room in antonica or so. i did play eq1 for awhile and am playing eq2 i wish i did play eqoa just for the experince, with that said i cant spell <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

AncientDreamz
03-07-2005, 02:08 AM
<DIV>One thing to keep in mind is that history is written by one of two types of people... the Happy Victors or the Angry Losers. Take the American Civil War.... talk to someone whose family fought for the Union and you'll get tales of cruelty suffered at the hands of the Confederates.... talk to someone whose family lived in the South and you get the same story but with different aggressors... so how do we know that our OWN history is the truth or not....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as the Erudites... I've played all three games (EQOA EQL and EQII) and I have the same character in each one.... an Erudite necromancer named Nitamaru Bonesinger.... In EQOA there is a boat of some sort being built in Highbourne (I don't have Frontiers so I'm not sure what happens there) I just used that boat as Erud's in the telling of Nitamaru's tale.... she was born in Highbourne... joined up with a man named Miragul and traveled to Odus and then finally to Everfrost where Miragul met with his fate...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In EQL she is reborn in answer to a curse laid upon her by Miragul... she must seek to reunite his body and soul (part of the Paladin epic I believe) in order that he may finish his bid to become a god.... this was part of what caused the Shattering of the land... the arrogance of Miragul... and of man in general.... once again Miragul fails and this time seems to be obiterated completely...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In EQII Nitamaru has been reborn yet again and walks as a lost soul in Freeport seeking answers as to what happened to friends (the guild Anlah'Shok) and what really happened to Miragul.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>By using the history that has been given AND modifying it a bit by making Miragul out to not be paranoid and a loner (history lied about him<g&gt<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I have created a character that can roleplay in any of the 3 games... and I've cast a shadow of doubt upon history... history says Miragul was a loner and paranoid... but someone who had LIVED at his side might have a different tale to tell... as to WHY his history was distorted... perhaps because people feared him and his poswers... after all he is the ONLY one who has mastered all four of the magics... Wizardry, Enchantment, Summoning and Necromancy...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And think about this.... here is a man who was THAT powerful in the past.... and he was reduced to a raid mob for an epic weapon (that is now obslete since epic 2.0 came out with the OoW expansion) and as far as I can tell doesn't even exist in EQII... this is just one of the examples where history doesn't ring true... and besides... why not use the lore in the game to create a roleplay story for your characters... just because Sony says it doesn't mean it HAS to be true<sweet smile>....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I guess what I am trying to say with this long winded post (which is why I DON'T post very often<g&gt<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> is that if the history doesn't match up... make it! The lore is there.... use it to create a rich and wonderful story... who knows... you may even submit it to Sony and make some money<g>.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>NItamaru Bonesinger</DIV> <DIV>EQ Erollis Marr server</DIV> <DIV>EQII Permafrost server </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Mordock of the Highwynd
03-07-2005, 04:37 AM
What I do as far as lore goes is I mix all the games in, to one timeline that makes sense. As far as my character, Mordock, is concerned, I have made him a soldier of Mithaniel Marr, traveling through time.We start out in EQOA, Mordock's time, and he is what you could call, a loud country boy who follows his heart and doesn't think things through. Believe me, that gets him into lots of trouble many times. Anyway, I call the cities that arn't on EQlive little different things, so they don't seem so far out of line with EQ lore. For instance, in the 3rd or 4th chapter of Mordock's story, when he goes to Moradhim to help the dwarves with stopping a network of corrupt monks called the Shon-To, I call Moradhim, The Outpost of Kaladim, or Kaladim's foothold on Tunaria.I call Fayspires, the elven city of Tunaria. It, in my story, is the last attempt to rebuild the Elddar Forest. In the quests that you get in Fayspires if you are an elf, the quest often have you slay Hatebone Orcs to foil their plans to destroy the rest of Elddar.I call Highborne, the outskirts of Qeynos. Why you ask? Qeynos isn't that far from Highborne and EQlive lore says that the Erudites left from Qeynos. Before then, the erudites kind of seperated themself from the humans, but still lived in the city. After the Erudites moved to Odus, they found Lord Prexus's egg. Prexus got really angry. Pretty soon in EQOA, there were Soothsayers out by the coast saying that the Ocean Lord was mad and was going to punish the Erudites by destroying Highborne. I call Klik Anon like EQOA says it is, the gnome city. In EQOA, the gnomes discover Lavastorm Mts, and have a small colony set up outside Klik right by a huge lava river. It is most likely that the gnomes blew the river boarder up while experimenting, as gnomes do. The lava river got out of hand and trashed Klik Anon. The Gnomes moved to Faydwer, with nothing, having to rebuild from scratch. Gnomes do not like to remember their mistakes, so they stay quiet about Klik Anon ever existing.I edited a timeline I found to fit Every EQ game to date, except for maybe Return to Arms. I'll post it soon.

Mordock of the Highwynd
03-08-2005, 08:49 AM
<DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6633>But you see, the game came out BEFORE the other, therefore the EQLive lore is the correct one and any game based off of it should coincide with the lore it represents.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Modern history works like this.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In 1900 a guy writes a history of the Roman Empire, based on available documentation.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In 2005, another guy writes another history of the Roman Empire, based on newly discovered information and on the 1900 history's sources, observations, and logic.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The 2005 history has an advantage, since 105 years of discoveries of original source materials and artifacts have happened.  But also 105 years of historians have written, reinterpreting what has gone before.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So a history which is written later is often better than a history written sooner, if it has all the source documents.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But the most important historical documents are the original source documents.  Having copies of decrees of Julias Ceasar are better than having a medieval historian's commentaries on those decrees.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here is how one might apply this to the controversy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EQOA was written after EQLive (like the 2005 history).  The writers, knowing what had gone before, could refine the lore.  They did not have to make it all agree with EQLive, since (as many others have stated) oral traditions vary and many things are lost to time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Second, EQOA might be viewed as the original source document.  The EQLive lore that is written about the EQOA time frame is like a 1900 history of the Roman Empire.   Both the 1900 and 2005 historians would prefer to base their histories on being able to travel in time back to the Roman Empire and live there for a while.  You can "do that" with EQOA.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I really do not understand the controversy with Highborne.  Perhaps the Erudites did not care to distinguish Qeynos, where many of them previously lived, from Highbourne, which is a quick trot down the coast.  Troy was thought to be a myth until discovered in the 1900's.  Perhaps adventurers will yet discover Moradhim.  Or perhaps not.  </DIV></DIV>

troodon311
03-08-2005, 01:02 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mordock of the Highwynd wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV>EQOA was written after EQLive (like the 2005 history).  The writers, knowing what had gone before, could refine the lore.  <HR> </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>That's patently absurd.  You're comparing writing fiction to researching history.  There was no new information for the EQOA team to go off of, they were basing their world off of their imagination, not "newly discovered information and on the [earlier writers'] history's sources, observations, and logic".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Using that same logic Timothy Zahn knew more about the Star Wars universe than George Lucas from 1991 to 1998 just because he was writing later and had learned more about the world than Lucas.</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> They did not have to make it all agree with EQLive, since (as many others have stated) oral traditions vary and many things are lost to time. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>You can't compare our world to that of Norrath.  Look here (<A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=lore&message.id=791&highlight=life+expectancy#M791" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=lore&message.id=791&highlight=life+expectancy#M791</A>).  Some people (elves mostly) who lived 500 years before EQ1 would have still been alive; they aren't going to forget everything, are they?  Also, these weren't primitive cultures; we aren't talking about the Mayans here.  These races had writing, they had scholarship, they had libraries, they had intellectuals, they had everything that would be needed to pass on perfectly coherant descriptions of their time.</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> Second, EQOA might be viewed as the original source document.  The EQLive lore that is written about the EQOA time frame is like a 1900 history of the Roman Empire.   Both the 1900 and 2005 historians would prefer to base their histories on being able to travel in time back to the Roman Empire and live there for a while.  You can "do that" with EQOA. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>This presumes that EQOA <EM>is</EM> a legitimate part of Norrathian history; an assumption you can't take for granted.  It's equally plausible that it is like having a 2005 history on the Roman Empire and a 1900 history of the Han Dynasty in China... going back to the Han Dynasty isn't going to tell you much about the Roman Empire.</DIV>

Mordock of the Highwynd
03-09-2005, 06:36 AM
<DIV>First of all, let me say that Troodon makes some good points.  Some of them support his thesis and some support mine.  I will put his words, including quoting my original words in enraged red text and mine in calm, rational, white text (hint: that is a joke).</DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#cc3300>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>troodon311 wrote:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#cc3300>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>Mordock of the Highwynd wrote:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc3300>EQOA was written after EQLive (like the 2005 history).  The writers, knowing what had gone before, could refine the lore.  <BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc3300>That's patently absurd.  You're comparing writing fiction to researching history.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc3300></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>I am, indeed, with one qualification.  I am comparing writing a fictional history to writing "real history."  If you wish to write a fictional history that has the properties of a real history, you do not start with <EM>The Book of True Lore </EM>and only reveal true statements until all truth from <EM>The Book of True Lore </EM> was revealed.  The real history of this moment in time contains mistakes.  We know that it does because they are constantly being found.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just today I saw on the news that King Tut was likely not murdered as was previously theorized.  He probably died of an infection that accompanied a badly broken leg.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So if EQLive's lore contains errors, that only makes it more like real history.  I have not seen the statement from Sony that EQLive's lore is error free.  I have a recollection, but no source that says that lore is . . . lore.  The discovery that Fayspires is known in EQ2 times indicates that there are King Tuts in EQLive.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc3300>There was no new information for the EQOA team to go off of, they were basing their world off of their imagination, not "newly discovered information and on the [earlier writers'] history's sources, observations, and logic".</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You have begged the question here.  That is, you have already assumed the answer with no logic given.  You presume that the EQOA team only had no access to anything but their own imaginations.  Somehow the Norrath of EQOA matches up generally with EQLive's geography (Halas, Oggok, Freeport, Qeynos, Neriak), personalities (Bayle, Erud, the Darkpaw family, Mistmoore, etc), time lines, and culture (racial proclivities, for instance).  Certainly the EQOA team were working with more than their imaginations.  It is a virtual certainty that they had access to more lore than EQLive players have (eg. you).</DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#cc3300>Using that same logic Timothy Zahn knew more about the Star Wars universe than George Lucas from 1991 to 1998 just because he was writing later and had learned more about the world than Lucas.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You create a straw man here.  First, EQOA is not fan fiction (ala, Zahn).  EQOA is a Sony product, just as EQLive is.  Sony is the current arbiter of what is EQ lore.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A better analogy would be this.  George Lucas knew more about the Star Wars Universe when he wrote the prequels (Phantom Menace, Clone Wars) than when he wrote the original trilogy.  I am confident that he did know more--even though he wrote the others first.  He had more time to think, to consider, to be asked questions, and to develop a consistent universe.  So, though the prequels are lousy and boring, they should contain more solidly based "lore."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your argument about EQLive and EQOA is equivalent to a fan of the original Star Wars trilogy arguing that the prequels are not in the real Star Wars universe because there are things in the prequels that were not in the original trilogy.</DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#cc3300>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>They did not have to make it all agree with EQLive, since (as many others have stated) oral traditions vary and many things are lost to time. <BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc3300>You can't compare our world to that of Norrath.  Look here (</FONT><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=lore&message.id=791&highlight=life+expectancy#M791" target=_blank><FONT color=#cc3300>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=lore&message.id=791&highlight=life+expectancy#M791</FONT></A><FONT color=#cc3300>).  Some people (elves mostly) who lived 500 years before EQ1 would have still been alive; they aren't going to forget everything, are they?  </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is certainly your trump card.  I do not think it wins the game for you, though.  We have some evidence that one elf knows lore from EQOA that, until now, no one in EQLive knew.  So apparently some lore, though it survived, was not well known.  It does not surprise me that in the relatively scant world history of Norrath that a colony of elves in the northeastern part of Tunaria would go unnoticed in the official histories.  In addition, the topic may not come up in polite conversation with the NPCs (except for that one time in EQ2).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It also does not surprise me that the Erudites would not be that interested in discussing the city of Highbourne (a short trot from Qeynos) that got obliterated by Prexus because of Erudite foolishness.  The winners write the histories and make themselves out to be the good/smart guys.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The "real history" view is illustrative.  Richard III has previously been portrayed as a murderous monster, horrible in body and spirit.  Modern historians find that the original sources who accused him of crimes were biased (as in, they betrayed him, or they later worked for Henry VI, who took the throne from him) and some were found to be unreliable in other details.  A consistent historical view of him is that he was an exemplary monarch who tried to end the War of he Roses by making an overly generous peace between the Yorks and the Lancasters.  If you engaged in a casual conversation with a historian today, it is highly unlikely that you would learn any of this.  There are many other things to talk about.  Quest NPCs in EQ have their own agendas.  Your lore education is a byproduct of this.</DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#cc3300>Also, these weren't primitive cultures; we aren't talking about the Mayans here.  These races had writing, they had scholarship, they had libraries, they had intellectuals, they had everything that would be needed to pass on perfectly coherant descriptions of their time.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Libraries are a good thing.  What happened to the famous and important Library of Alexandria?  Nobody knows for sure.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://www.bede.org.uk/library.htm" target=_blank>http://www.bede.org.uk/library.htm</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This illustrates two things.  Libraries can be lost to time.  Second, history has massive holes in it.  This library was the center of knowledge for the civilized world.  And no one knows conclusively what happened to it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>Second, EQOA might be viewed as the original source document.  The EQLive lore that is written about the EQOA time frame is like a 1900 history of the Roman Empire.   Both the 1900 and 2005 historians would prefer to base their histories on being able to travel in time back to the Roman Empire and live there for a while.  You can "do that" with EQOA. <BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000>This presumes that EQOA is a legitimate part of Norrathian history; an assumption you can't take for granted.  It's equally plausible that it is like having a 2005 history on the Roman Empire and a 1900 history of the Han Dynasty in China... going back to the Han Dynasty isn't going to tell you much about the Roman Empire.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You are correct.  I presume that EQOA is a legitimate part of Norrathian history.  You presume it is not.  Who has more evidence?  Most of your arguments are from silence--EQLive does not mention Fayspires, Highborne, etc, so they never existed.  Arguments from silence are not good history--and lore is fictional history.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What is my evidence that EQOA is a legitimate part of Norrathian history, as is EQLive and EQ2?  Sony is the current arbiter of what is legitimate Norrathian history and what is not.  Sony owns all three products.  Sony includes, in the EQOA manual, a discussion of how EQOA occurs 500 years before EQLive and they explain how this makes EQOA different in some ways, such as the different races being moved around.  Sony could not make a clearer statement that EQOA = EQLive - 500 years .  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you do not believe that all the differences between EQLive and EQOA could happen in 500 years then you have an issue with Sony.  You should write them a nasty letter about how they messed up the wonderful EQLive lore (oh, the tragedy, there really is a Highborne) by publishing EQOA as being in the historical timeline of EQLive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You should really write this letter to them.  After all, you consider the worlds of EQLive/EQ2  to be as different from EQOA as the Han Dynasty is from the Roman Empire.  Post that reply when you get it.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Mordock of the Highwynd on <SPAN class=date_text>03-08-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:47 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Mordock of the Highwynd on <span class=date_text>03-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:57 PM</span>