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alerka
12-08-2004, 08:19 AM
<DIV>In history, Berserks were warriors from the various tribes of barbarians and savages in the old world. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The term "Berserk" actually means "Bear Skin". These warriors would usually drink potions concocted from herbs and other mind altering substances before battle to goad themselves into a maddened frenzy of anger and strength. The part of history that EQ2 so blatently ignores is the the fact that these raving warriors would wade into battle wearing little else than the hide of a bear, with the skinned head as a helmet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In EQ2, Berkserkers (a misnomer), can wear nothing but plate armor. Not only is this incorrect, it is absurd. </DIV>

Ravengaa
12-08-2004, 01:20 PM
<DIV>I know quite a bit about the real-life Berserkers, especially the Norse ones - the most reknowned.  But, you must remember this is the realm of Everquest...it is not real life.  Paladins were supposed holy knights in the Crusades, a name first given by Charlemagne the founder of the Holy Roman Empire, the fact of the matter is they weren't the good-natured knights of Everquest.  They commited horrible acts against the "infidels" aka anyone who wasn't Christian.  Did real life Paladins cast spells upon themselves and others? Of course not, magic doesn't exist.  The Paladin of Norrath was taken from the D&D Paladin, as most classes were with the original EQ.  I'm just trying to make a point that this is not real life, so it's pointless to make comparisons.  I believe a Berserker's ability to wear heavy plate is great, because forcing them to wear light, leather armor would make them too similar to a Brawler or Monk.  If all the classes were historically correct, Druids would be white-robe wearing bearucrats, there would be no animal-form spells or illusions, every type of Mage wouldn't be able to cast these arcane spells...they would instead be performing odd rituals, creating alchemical concoctions, making perdictions using star/lunar/solar charts, doing whatever....and so on.  Get the picture?</DIV>

Abrax
12-08-2004, 03:31 PM
<DIV>Yeah, Ravengaard summed it up pretty nicely.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A Berzerker in most RP games is a character who is mentally unstable with an insatiable lust for battle. </DIV> <DIV>In real-life they were just drug fuelled nutcases who skimped about in some stinking dead animal's skin.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A Paladin is a character who goes out of his way to help the poor and uphold justice and honour.</DIV> <DIV>In real-life they booted the crap outta everyone who didn't conform to their beliefs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A Cleric is a player who's dedicated to healing the sick and injured and fighting off the undead menace...They're also only meant to use blunt crushing weapons all while spreading the lord's good word...</DIV> <DIV>In real-life they were [Removed for Content] who kicked about in churches doing sweet FA</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What yer forgetting that this ain't real-life and it's based on a fictional planet in fictional circumstances.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry about the crude descriptions! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

KBB
12-09-2004, 07:29 AM
<DIV>I researched beserkers about 7 months ago and it said that they got high and drank poisons that could actually kill them in battle and or make them pass out....... and yes.... its not real.</DIV>

alerka
12-10-2004, 06:27 AM
<DIV>I agree with you guys 100% that this is a fantasy game and that magic is not real.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>HOWEVER</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was pointing out the fundamental traits of the classes, not how the actual class is applied to fantasy games. Allow me to explain.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-I am well aware of the role the original crusaders (paladins) played in history. I know well how they extorted money from cities in exchange for exemption from the crusaders wrath...and how the crusaders sacked the cities anyways. However, the fundamental role of a crusader is one who took up arms and travelled to a land of oppossing relegion to dole out punishment and find heathen riches. That role has been fufilled in EQ2's paladin.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Although magic does not exist in the real world, the ignorant people in the ancient world believed in it. It was easy for people with even the basest of understanding of science or trickery to play on the fear and superstitions of the ignorant masses. Whether curses are real or not, if a whole population avoids a place due to the belief that a hermit in that area will curse them.... then magic did exist in a pseudorealistic way. Also, people had superstitions that were based on physics of the world that were not understood in a community where scientific study was a fledgling endeavor. Clever people could pose as magicians just by taking advantage of this. There are even shaman in Haiti that can grind up the toxin from blowfish and use it to create living zombies. You can go to Haiti today and find slaves working in fields, incapable of independant thought or speech (enchanters anyone?). So in a way, witches and mages and magic were a very real thing back in the age of ignorance. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Healers existed in the old world as well (they even exist in the world today!). Healers utilized natural medicine such as herbal poultices and tonic derived from plants and animals to comfort the ailing. Heck, the formula for modern day aspirin was derived from the bark/pith of a tree! There are places such as Tailand where antibiotics and other modern medical practices are utilized, but the people STILL visit the healer for advice and primitive cures in adition. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-As far as the druids being an organization of politicians in white robes, I'm not sure I agree with that one. Perhaps they eventually became something of that nature, thier origins could not be farther than that. Druid history is steeped in mysticism and rites. For instance, it was believed and practiced by ancient druids that if you were to take the root of a mandrake and perform a ritual on it during Samhain, you could undergo a trial where apparitions (hallucinations?) would test your courage and resolve to finish the rite. The rite itself consisted of travelling great distances overnight. The druids also practiced a rite where pictures of doors or archways were inscribed on cielings (or just imagined in the mind) and one could actually travel great distances with thier spirit, or transcend to alternate planes (druid gates anyone?). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why am I babbling about all of this? Because I like to babble.....AND because if you notice, SOE has done a decent job of assigning character classes to thier fundamental roles (at least in EQ1), but the bererk(ers) in EQ2 are not very accurate.</DIV>

knightdant
12-10-2004, 11:50 PM
<DIV>I agree with the person who posted this. Paladins and Shadowknights at least follow along the lines of a Crusader good or bad. They should not wear heavy plate if they call them Berserkers. There were historicall Berserkers that ran in to battle without armor. They should just have chain like EQ1.</DIV>

Stormewol
12-11-2004, 12:09 AM
<DIV>No offense to the opinions presented here, but honestly, what's in a name?  Not a whole lot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Where is it stated that the berserkers of Norrath were to have any relation to the berserkers of history?  The class could have been called Frenzies or Destroyers or Apple Pies for that matter, thier function wouldn't be any different in this game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's just a name.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However I would enjoy some palandins snapping and ransacking a village now and then.</DIV>

StrongMedici
12-12-2004, 10:11 AM
<P>Yeah well...the guy has a point. I understand that Berserkers must wear heavy armor, its game mechanics but i disagree that they must look like Armored knights. I too was keen on seeing a wild berserker with tribal paint and hides wading into battle.</P> <P>Ok this is a game, but to me a Berserker have some qualities and a certain look/way. Its like adding an Archer class and then only allow him to wear hvy armor and arm him with blunt weapons and slings - Its wrong, mostly because we all know that Archers use bows and perhaps Crossbows right <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>Well Berserkers are mainly based on the norse zerkers and..yeah you know the rest. They didnt dress up like Paladins.</P> <P><BR> </P> <P>Message Edited by StrongMedicine on <SPAN class=date_text>12-11-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:13 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by StrongMedicine on <span class=date_text>12-11-2004</span> <span class=time_text>09:13 PM</span>

StrongMedici
12-12-2004, 10:11 AM
<P>Double post =/</P> <P><BR> </P> <p>Message Edited by StrongMedicine on <span class=date_text>12-11-2004</span> <span class=time_text>09:12 PM</span>

Abrax
12-15-2004, 07:09 AM
<blockquote><hr>Stormewolfe wrote:<DIV> </DIV><DIV>It's just a name.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>However I would enjoy some palandins snapping and ransacking a village now and then.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Now THAT I can do! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

knightdant
12-15-2004, 07:27 AM
<DIV>I guess what it really boils down to is that people were disapointed that they didn't get to look like that Berserker leaping on the original Gates of Discord box from Everquest 1 Lol.</DIV>

troodon311
12-15-2004, 02:28 PM
<DIV>That guy wasn't even an EQlive Berserker; he's dual wielding.</DIV>

Sarago
12-15-2004, 06:54 PM
Relax it's a game... have a drink and [Removed for Content]

knightdant
12-16-2004, 03:00 AM
<DIV>That would have been a good idea to save that class in EQLive to have them be able to duel wield.</DIV>

knightdant
12-16-2004, 03:01 AM
<DIV>I don't think we are really arguing by the way. This is to the guy who said have a drink.</DIV>

alerka
12-16-2004, 06:05 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Saragoth wrote:<BR>Relax it's a game... have a drink and [Removed for Content]<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Sounds like you are the one that needs to relax and have a drink. We were all having a pleasant conversation.

Tanithis
12-19-2004, 11:04 PM
Honestly when I think of a berserker, I think of Orson, a man possessed by a rage demon, from Records of Loddoss War and he wore plate armor. If you do not know the story, when Orson was a kid he saw his older sister killed by some goblins. He then unknowingly let a rage demon posses him. After that whenever he seen a woman in trouble, the rage demon took over and he became a powerful fighter, killing anything and everything around him, not knowing friend from foe anymore. After awhile the demon would calm down enough for Orson to take control of his body again or he would just collapse from exhaustion.That is what comes to my mind when I think of a berserker in a RPG, not something from Norse mythology.

Web
12-20-2004, 02:36 AM
In the world of EQ2, if you took Bezerkers out of plate armor and put them into light armor, they'd end up being nothing but monks who get drunk with different weapons. And by getting drunk I mean drinking the potions you speak of. Which gameplay wise isn't a very good class in my opinion.

Faeoren
12-21-2004, 07:35 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> knightdantes wrote:<BR> <DIV>I guess what it really boils down to is that people were disapointed that they didn't get to look like that Berserker leaping on the original Gates of Discord box from Everquest 1 Lol.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>Actually that guy leaping wasn't a Berserker, he was a Rogue, a Barbarian Rogue...by the name of Morden Rasp =D

Jher
12-21-2004, 07:50 PM
Heheh, had to post in this one <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Personally, as a Zerker, I'd love to be dressed in bearskins, going for the wild look etc. Couple of problems though - We'd either have to be reclassified as a scout class, and our DPS upped dramatically to bring us into line with the others, or a brawler class, with lots of extra mitigation abilities added (avoidance isn't really in the theme of a berserker), playing on the Beowulf aspect of berserkers' apparent immunity to blades. Thing is, if we pile on a load of damage mitigation skills to keep our 'tank' status, people would end up complaining that we no longer have to pay for armour <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />So sure, EQ2 Berserkers aren't really accurate in comparison with either RL 'lore' or 'history', but hey. Its just a name <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

troodon311
12-22-2004, 02:11 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Faeoren wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>Actually that guy leaping wasn't a Berserker, he was a Rogue, a Barbarian Rogue...by the name of Morden Rasp =D<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>No, he's talking about the crazy dude dual wielding axes... not Rasp.

Faeoren
12-22-2004, 03:52 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> troodon311 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE>No, he's talking about the crazy dude dual wielding axes... not Rasp.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Oh right I forgot about that dude...my bad!  </DIV>

Ta
12-24-2004, 11:21 AM
<blockquote><hr>Abraxus wrote:<DIV>Yeah, Ravengaard summed it up pretty nicely.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>A Berzerker in most RP games is a character who is mentally unstable with an insatiable lust for battle. </DIV><DIV>In real-life they were just drug fuelled nutcases who skimped about in some stinking dead animal's skin.</DIV><hr></blockquote>What did you just call me? /em knocks over a tableFriend, I suggest you take that back right now or /em looks like he's about to rupture a vein...I'm gonna have to rip your head off, shove a stick through it, and use it as a club to break all your ribs.

alerka
12-28-2004, 08:17 AM
<DIV>Just give berserksers the bearskins and whatnot, but add self-only buffs that add a ton of AC <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

Kondul
12-28-2004, 08:23 PM
The problem with your logic is that Everquest isn't based in real world history. There were no Vikings in Bear Skins in Norrath to give rise to the Berzerker class. In Norrath, a Berzerker is a fighter, who goes berzerk.In real world history Druids were nothing like the Druids in game, yet no one complains about that. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Faeoren
12-28-2004, 08:56 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kondular wrote:<BR>The problem with your logic is that Everquest isn't based in real world history. There were no Vikings in Bear Skins in Norrath to give rise to the Berzerker class. In Norrath, a Berzerker is a fighter, who goes berzerk.<BR><BR>In real world history Druids were nothing like the Druids in game, yet no one complains about that. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I think the clothes that the Druids wear should be more cloth like and less armor like....it seems kind of odd that naturewalkers are wearing leather armor.<BR>

alerka
12-29-2004, 05:49 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kondular wrote:<BR>The problem with your logic is that Everquest isn't based in real world history. There were no Vikings in Bear Skins in Norrath to give rise to the Berzerker class. In Norrath, a Berzerker is a fighter, who goes berzerk.<BR><BR>In real world history Druids were nothing like the Druids in game, yet no one complains about that. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Actually, if you read above, my post exlains how ancient druids practiced rites that supposedly allowed them to leave their body and travel great distances, and they also practiced a rite during Samhain that allowed them to walk great distances quickly (Druid Ports, and SoW).</P> <P>If you are interested, you can read the "21 Lessons of Merlin." It uses historical research to explain the druids.</P> <P>EDIT- Where do these one-star toads come from?</P><p>Message Edited by alerka on <span class=date_text>01-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:57 PM</span>

calabusdab
12-29-2004, 06:10 AM
<DIV>The term "Berserk" actually means "Bear Skin".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>are u nuts no it does not</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>1</STRONG> <B>:</B> an ancient Scandinavian warrior frenzied in battle and held to be invulnerable<BR><B>2</B> <B>:</B> one whose actions are recklessly defiant</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>webster.com is ur friend hehe</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>my 2cp</DIV>

JDDbull
12-29-2004, 06:58 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> calabusdabus wrote:<BR> <DIV>The term "Berserk" actually means "Bear Skin".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>are u nuts no it does not</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>1</STRONG> <B>:</B> an ancient Scandinavian warrior frenzied in battle and held to be invulnerable<BR><B>2</B> <B>:</B> one whose actions are recklessly defiant</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>webster.com is ur friend hehe</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>my 2cp</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Actually the derivitive of the word came from the old Viking word used to descibe the insane/drugged/whako warriors called the beserkergang, wich meant bear-shirt in norse, since they wore hides instead of armor into battle.  The word beserk in the english language is exactly as websters lists it. a good link for historical Beserker info is <A href="http://www.winterscapes.com/uppsala/berserk.htm" target=_blank>http://www.winterscapes.com/uppsala/berserk.htm</A></DIV><p>Message Edited by JDDbull on <span class=date_text>12-29-2004</span> <span class=time_text>08:59 AM</span>

Kondul
12-31-2004, 12:57 AM
There are similarities between real world Druids and in game Druids, but there are similarities between real world Berzerkers and in game berzerkers too. (high damage output, berzerker fury)All I'm saying is that you can't dispute an in-game reality, by saying it doesn't mesh with real world history. It's like saying Dragonlance is wrong because there were never real dragons like that. :pAnd forDruids wearing leather, it actually makes alot of sense. Death is a normal part of nature. The shame is to let any part of a dead animal go to waste.

Erethiz
01-04-2005, 04:51 PM
<blockquote><hr>JDDbull wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>calabusdabus wrote:<BR><DIV>The term "Berserk" actually means "Bear Skin".</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>are u nuts no it does not</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV><STRONG>1</STRONG> <B>:</B> an ancient Scandinavian warrior frenzied in battle and held to be invulnerable<BR><B>2</B> <B>:</B> one whose actions are recklessly defiant</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>webster.com is ur friend hehe</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>my 2cp</DIV><BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><DIV>Actually the derivitive of the word came from the old Viking word used to descibe the insane/drugged/whako warriors called the beserkergang, wich meant bear-shirt in norse, since they wore hides instead of armor into battle. The word beserk in the english language is exactly as websters lists it. a good link for historical Beserker info is <A href="http://www.winterscapes.com/uppsala/berserk.htm" target=_blank>http://www.winterscapes.com/uppsala/berserk.htm</A></DIV><p>Message Edited by JDDbull on <span class=date_text>12-29-2004</span> <span class=time_text>08:59 AM</span><hr></blockquote>Thank-you. I was about to post the same thing. To expand: The Berserkergang would refer their way of battle as "wearing the bear shirt".

Erethiz
01-04-2005, 04:54 PM
<blockquote><hr>Ravengaard wrote:<DIV>I know quite a bit about the real-life Berserkers, especially the Norse ones - the most reknowned. </DIV><hr></blockquote>The only real-life Berserkers were Norse. The word 'berserk' is of Old Norse origin. Because of the Norse the term may have been used for other similar fighters, but it truly only applies to the Norse.

alerka
01-06-2005, 08:40 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> calabusdabus wrote:<BR> <DIV>The term "Berserk" actually means "Bear Skin".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>are u nuts no it does not</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>1</STRONG> <B>:</B> an ancient Scandinavian warrior frenzied in battle and held to be invulnerable<BR><B>2</B> <B>:</B> one whose actions are recklessly defiant</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>webster.com is ur friend hehe</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>my 2cp</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Before you call someone nuts, make sure you are not making an [Removed for Content] of yourself, like the people who 5 starred you:</P> <P></P>Main Entry: <B>1ber·serk</B> <A target=_blank><IMG height=11 src="http://www.m-w.com/images/audio.gif" width=16 border=0></A><A target=_blank><IMG height=11 src="http://www.m-w.com/images/audio.gif" width=16 border=0></A><BR>Pronunciation: b&(r)-'s&rk, "b&r-, -'z&rk; 'b&r-"<BR>Variant(s): <I>or</I> <B>ber·serk·er</B> <A target=_blank><IMG height=11 src="http://www.m-w.com/images/audio.gif" width=16 border=0></A>/-'s&r-k&r, -'z&r-; 'b&r-"/<BR>Function: <I>noun</I><BR><STRONG><FONT color=#ff3300>Etymology: Old Norse <I>berserkr, </I>from <I>bjorn </I>bear + <I>serkr </I>shirt</FONT></STRONG><BR><B>1</B> <B>:</B> an ancient Scandinavian warrior frenzied in battle and held to be invulnerable<BR><B>2</B> <B>:</B> one whose actions are recklessly defiant<IMG height=1 alt="" src="http://www.m-w.com/images/pixt.gif" width=10 border=0><BR> <p>Message Edited by alerka on <span class=date_text>01-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:56 PM</span>

Ibnalno
01-10-2005, 03:25 PM
<DIV>Why not just make the switch in your head between Beserker and Brawler. Call the Brawler a Beserker and the Beserker a Brawler. Hey, I still call myself a Shaman, simply because I like the name better than Mystic.Then you would have your light armor wearing Beserker. </DIV>

Stuntie
01-11-2005, 10:16 PM
<DIV>The theory of the bezerkers being on drugs has been looked at and disproved.</DIV> <DIV>The drugs attributed to bezerkers make tasks involving handeye co-ordination much more difficult.</DIV> <DIV>E.g. Spear throwing becomes wildly inaccurate. </DIV> <DIV>They are more likely to make the user more passive and or confused, not exactly the state for a ferocious warrior.</DIV> <DIV>The drugs just don't make you bezerk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The reality is that there are always those in society that have a  violent disposition, some due to medical condition, others just like violence.</DIV> <DIV>In our modern world these people, e.g. football holligans, are frowned upon and forced to curb their actions due to the threat of police action against them.</DIV> <DIV>Step back to a world when violent thugs can make great shock troops and the emphasis switches. They become the glamourous feared but respected heroes sought after by kings and chiefs. Give the group an ethos of glorious heroics and teach them disdain for death and you will have a formidable band of warriors. <DIV>Deck them out in bear skins (great light armour in  an age when chainmail was scarse) to add to their ferocity and help foster group identity and you have a group with a ferocious wild animal image to maintain. Egging each other on and trying to out do each other they will soon loose it and go bezerk, or if not truly bezerk in the medical sense, they will still act that way as the group idenity. imagery and ethos kicks in.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>Their behaviour is channelled and even promoted, provided it goes towards helping your side. It forms a sort of social cleansing of those that would be undesirable into activities that keep them from being disruptive to the rest. They are kept in the same way guard dogs are - nasty vicious things, but useful in certain places. Their oaths and obligations do much to keep them in check as much as the rewards for their deeds in the honour based Viking world.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When Christianity came the berzerkers and their non-christian cult and ethos start to become the villains, outlaws and thugs to be despised in contrast to the steady and solid (and of course christian) Huscarl, or houseguards, of the king. By the end of the saga period they are the stock bully figure fighting duals with weaker men for profit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We seek to claim some special reason for bezerkers being like that. Medical problems, drugs etc. etc. something to make them different from the rest of us, partly because we want our heroes, partly because we don't like  the truth - that it's just us, humans at our worst.</DIV>