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BBouch
01-13-2006, 06:16 AM
<div></div><font color="#ff9900">Quick Raid Hypothetical:</font><font color="#ff9900"></font><font color="#ff9900"></font><font color="#ff9900">You have access to any class of players and any number of of those classes with the same quality of skills.Why choose a mystic? Just curious what the rest of the community reasons.</font><div></div><p>Message Edited by BBoucher on <span class="date_text">01-12-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:17 PM</span></p>

paisan
01-13-2006, 08:00 AM
<div></div><div><span>Runic Talisman</span> (Master 1)GroupConcentration 1-Increases Mitigation of group members vs all physical damage by 564-Wards group members (AE) against 87 points of all physical damage {regens per tick}<span>Umbral Mettle</span> (Adept 3)GroupConcentration 1-Increases Max Health of group members (AE) by 281-Increases Mitigation of group members (AE) vs disease damage by 812-Increases Mitigation of group members (AE) vs poison damage by 1015<span>Spirit of the Mamoth </span>(Adept 3)GroupConcentration 1-Increases STR and STA of group members (AE) by 65<span>Foreteling</span> (Master 1)Group FriendConcentration 1-Increases Max Power of target by 738-Increases Max Health of target by 643<span>Avatar</span> (Adept 3)Group FriendToggleable-Increases AGI, STR and STA of target by 51<span>Prophetic Aegis </span>(Adept 1)Group 36sec-Increases Mitigation of group members (AE) vs disease and poison damage by 684-Wards group members (AE) against 1261 points of disease and poison damage.My group cures are Arcane and Noxious.I have a single target Cure Everything spell.I also have a small powerdrain.I buff all melee stats poison/disease resists and have serious damage prevention but weak direct healing.</div><div>Is why =)</div>

BBouch
01-13-2006, 02:59 PM
<font color="#ffcc00">Hmmm...</font><font color="#ffcc00"></font><font color="#ffcc00"></font><font color="#ffcc00">Runic Talisman</font><font color="#ffcc00"></font><ul><li><font color="#ffcc00">does't stack with Valor (Templar). Valor also adds 511 raw HP in addition to mitigation. So no need for Runic Talisman if you have a Templar.</font><font color="#ffcc00"></font></li></ul><font color="#ffcc00">Umbral Mettle</font><font color="#ffcc00"></font><ul><li><font color="#ffcc00">is greater then Defilers by 232 (poison only).</font></li></ul><font color="#ffcc00">Spirit of the Mammoth / Avatar</font><font color="#ffcc00"></font><ul><li><font color="#ffcc00">Good for STR and AGI</font></li><li><font color="#ffcc00">STA useless if tank maxed STA (1 troubador will do)</font></li><li><font color="#ffcc00">Mystics provide a total HP boost of around 1.3k (STA only) vs Defiler of 1.6k (Raw HP)</font><font color="#ffcc00"></font></li></ul><font color="#ffcc00">Prophetic Aegis</font><font color="#ffcc00"></font><ul><li><font color="#ffcc00">Nice but only lasts 30 secs with long recast.</font><font color="#ffcc00"></font></li></ul><font color="#ffcc00">Ancient Balm</font><font color="#ffcc00"></font><ul><li><font color="#ffcc00">Cures everything but isnt the only healer that can vs Some healers can cure while stunned.</font></li></ul><font color="#ffcc00">So then, </font><font color="#ffcc00"></font><ol><li><font color="#ffcc00">Mitigation buff goes to Templar</font></li><li><font color="#ffcc00">HP buff to Defiler</font></li><li><font color="#ffcc00">30sec poison buff to Mystic</font></li></ol><font color="#ffcc00"></font><font color="#ffcc00">So you only need the mystic if you want the 30s poison buff?</font><div></div>

Banditman
01-13-2006, 08:47 PM
You don't need a Mystic at all.  You can raid fine without one.You also don't need a Templar.What is needed is as many different classes as possible.  Mystic is one of the available classes and as such can contribute meaningfully to any raid.If you feel another class is more important, by all means, go roll one of them.I now have a 60 Conjuror in addition to a 60 Mystic.  Both of them have things they do well and things they do poorly.  Nevertheless, each is valuable in his own way.

Darkt0wer
01-14-2006, 10:46 PM
<div></div><div><p><span><font size="2"><font color="#ffffff">I really don’t have many issues with my Mystic’s raiding capabilities.<span>  </span>Other than the fact that most of our hp buffing comes in the form of increasing sta.<span>  </span>As the guilds tanks get better and better (more total sta) our buffs get less effective.<span>   </span>Sony is going to need to raise the stat cap, or maybe and some raw hp to the Spirit of the Mammoth line.</font></font></span></p><p><span><font color="#ffffff" size="2"></font></span> </p><p><span><font size="2"><font color="#ffffff">As for valor vs. runic talisman, all healers lv. 47 mitigation spell is 564 at master 1.<span>  </span>The only differences are the secondary effect.</font></font></span></p><p><span><font color="#ffffff" size="2"></font></span> </p><p><span><font size="2"><font color="#ffffff">Temps. <span>         </span>511 raw hp</font></font></span></p><p><span><font size="2"><font color="#ffffff">Mystic <span>           </span>87 hp ward</font></font></span></p><p><span><font size="2"><font color="#ffffff">Wardens <span>      </span>188 to magical resistant (I think that’s right)</font></font></span></p><p><span><font size="2"><font color="#ffffff">Defiler<span>             </span>174 hp ward vs. magical dmg.</font></font></span></p><p><span><font size="2"><font color="#ffffff"></font></font></span> </p><p><span><font size="2"><font color="#ffffff">The secondary effects all stack.</font></font></span></p></div>

NimSul
01-16-2006, 08:40 AM
<div></div>Debuffs ...

Mystiq
01-17-2006, 02:57 AM
<div></div><p>You want a Mystic on raids, just one should be fine if a Defiler is also present. A mystic's debuffs are very important and helpful for tough fights. We have stamina, strength, noxious resists, attack speed and DPS debuffs in our arsenal. Other classes might have their own version of these debuffs, but no other class has all of the above, which also includes two AE debuffs.</p><p>A Mystic should not be brought to a raid with the intent on primarily healing, because that's honestly not our strong suit. We can do it, and stop damage (even spell damage) pretty well, but IMO our debuffs stop more damage than our wards if they are maintained throughout a raid fight.</p><p>Also a Mystic is a pretty decent buffer of sta and str, and fits well in the "DPS" raid group, be it with the scouts boosting their damage, or with the casters boosting their hp, power and resists. Also never underestimate the power of Oberon when you really, really need to keep someone alive. It's just too bad this spell is only useable within your group.</p><p>I've tried to get out of raids before, and the officers just won't let me! They know that I am a vital part of our guild's raid success. A well played Mystic makes a raid a breeze.</p>

Nacire
01-17-2006, 08:29 PM
<div></div><blockquote><hr>BBoucher wrote:<font color="#ffcc00">Hmmm...</font><font color="#ffcc00"></font><font color="#ffcc00"></font><font color="#ffcc00">Runic Talisman</font><font color="#ffcc00"></font><ul><li><font color="#ffcc00">does't stack with Valor (Templar). Valor also adds 511 raw HP in addition to mitigation. So no need for Runic Talisman if you have a Templar.</font><font color="#ffcc00"></font></li></ul><font color="#ffcc00">Umbral Mettle</font><font color="#ffcc00"></font><ul><li><font color="#ffcc00">is greater then Defilers by 232 (poison only).</font></li></ul><font color="#ffcc00">Spirit of the Mammoth / Avatar</font><font color="#ffcc00"></font><ul><li><font color="#ffcc00">Good for STR and AGI</font></li><li><font color="#ffcc00">STA useless if tank maxed STA (1 troubador will do)</font></li><li><font color="#ffcc00">Mystics provide a total HP boost of around 1.3k (STA only) vs Defiler of 1.6k (Raw HP)</font><font color="#ffcc00"></font></li></ul><font color="#ffcc00">Prophetic Aegis</font><font color="#ffcc00"></font><ul><li><font color="#ffcc00">Nice but only lasts 30 secs with long recast.</font><font color="#ffcc00"></font></li></ul><font color="#ffcc00">Ancient Balm</font><font color="#ffcc00"></font><ul><li><font color="#ffcc00">Cures everything but isnt the only healer that can vs Some healers can cure while stunned.</font></li></ul><font color="#ffcc00">So then, </font><font color="#ffcc00"></font><ol><li><font color="#ffcc00">Mitigation buff goes to Templar</font></li><li><font color="#ffcc00">HP buff to Defiler</font></li><li><font color="#ffcc00">30sec poison buff to Mystic</font></li></ol><font color="#ffcc00"></font><font color="#ffcc00">So you only need the mystic if you want the 30s poison buff?</font><div></div><hr></blockquote><p>Runic DOES stack with Valor just not the mitigation portion of the buff, that 87 hp ward don't seem like much but refreshing every 2 seconds mana free it still adds up to a considerable amount of damage prevented, won't make or break the raid of course, but it's a help.</p><p>Umbral Mettle does win versus the only other class having a similar buff, so win for us there...</p><p>Spirit of Mammoth / Avatar..  Just tested my mystic (without including the self only bear form) and on ME where sta makes less difference it's still 1.4k of buffed hp, and 964 of that is RAW hp.  Not sure if our troub just isn't trying to buff sta or has crappy upgrades or what but with troub + me in grp the normal MT for our guild is still shy a few sta pnts of reaching cap.  This may be when the troub has other buffs up for whatever reason though, never knew they were able to buff a lot of stamina.  Regardless the MT ends up right at or just over 10k hp nearly every time so tis plenty good enough. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> The agil is near pointless, but STR = power, and when have you ever been at a raid where the MT didn't end up OOP?  More power is ALWAYS good.  And the "caps" are not hard caps either, you can be at 500 str on a fighter then use your str buff ring and watch your power go up some still.  Same for HP from stamina, the effect diminishes but there IS still an effect.</p><p>Prophetic Aegis, wasn't even on my hotbars till I recently decided to make one more for all my inventory clickable items moving a few off normal bars and making more room.  Still have only cast it twice but hey, it's there if I get bored enough to bother.</p><p>Ancient Balm, to my knowledge ONLY defilers can cure while stunned and their cure is only for control effects NOT dots or other debuffs of any sort.  Ancient Balm cures EVERYTHING, control effects, debuffs, dots, lice...  Well maybe not that last one but the lice tend to scare the mobs so we let the tank keep 'em. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p> </p><p>So really...</p><p>Mitigation buff goes to everyone, we all have usefull secondaries that stack nicely with each other and the tank gets the mit from whoever has the highest upgraded version as EVERY preist is equal in how much mit is buffed. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>HP goes to Defiler but ONLY if the tank can max sta by other means, if by some freak chance he actually needs some resists or some other buff from the troub (or *gasp* you don't have a troub), then lead back to mystics. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>And every preist gets a 30 sec resist buff, and we all know they're barely worth the button space.</p><p> </p>

Banditman
01-18-2006, 10:44 PM
<div><span><blockquote><hr>Nacireen wrote:<p>Runic DOES stack with Valor just not the mitigation portion of the buff, that 87 hp ward don't seem like much but refreshing every 2 seconds mana free it still adds up to a considerable amount of damage prevented, won't make or break the raid of course, but it's a help.</p><font color="#ff0000">I cannot stress enough how important this is.  87 HP every 6 seconds is vital.  That's 870 HP per minute!</font><p>Umbral Mettle does win versus the only other class having a similar buff, so win for us there...</p><p>Spirit of Mammoth / Avatar..  Just tested my mystic (without including the self only bear form) and on ME where sta makes less difference it's still 1.4k of buffed hp, and 964 of that is RAW hp.  <font color="#ff0000">Actually none of the HP from Mammoth / Avatar are Raw.  They are all STA.  The only Raw HP buff we have is Foretelling.  </font>Not sure if our troub just isn't trying to buff sta or has crappy upgrades or what but with troub + me in grp the normal MT for our guild is still shy a few sta pnts of reaching cap.  This may be when the troub has other buffs up for whatever reason though, never knew they were able to buff a lot of stamina.  Regardless the MT ends up right at or just over 10k hp nearly every time so tis plenty good enough. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> The agil is near pointless, but STR = power, and when have you ever been at a raid where the MT didn't end up OOP?  More power is ALWAYS good.  And the "caps" are not hard caps either, you can be at 500 str on a fighter then use your str buff ring and watch your power go up some still.  Same for HP from stamina, the effect diminishes but there IS still an effect.</p><p>Prophetic Aegis, wasn't even on my hotbars till I recently decided to make one more for all my inventory clickable items moving a few off normal bars and making more room.  Still have only cast it twice but hey, it's there if I get bored enough to bother.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">I actually find this very useful in fights like the Great Gardner where I can tell my group they can hang in and take an AE and keep DPS'ing.  I pop it and they keep smacking the mob.</font></p><p>Ancient Balm, to my knowledge ONLY defilers can cure while stunned and their cure is only for control effects NOT dots or other debuffs of any sort.  Ancient Balm cures EVERYTHING, control effects, debuffs, dots, lice...  Well maybe not that last one but the lice tend to scare the mobs so we let the tank keep 'em. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p> <font color="#ff0000">With a Mystic in the MT group, there is absolutely NO reason a MT should have any persistent DoT's / effects on them, except for those rare ones that are uncureable.</font></p><p>So really...</p><p>Mitigation buff goes to everyone, we all have usefull secondaries that stack nicely with each other and the tank gets the mit from whoever has the highest upgraded version as EVERY preist is equal in how much mit is buffed. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>HP goes to Defiler but ONLY if the tank can max sta by other means, if by some freak chance he actually needs some resists or some other buff from the troub (or *gasp* you don't have a troub), then lead back to mystics. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>And every preist gets a 30 sec resist buff, and we all know they're barely worth the button space.</p><p> </p><hr></blockquote><font color="#ff0000">The bottom line is that if the only thing a Mystic brings to the raid is debuffs and curing the MT, he's already contributed more than most of the other players in the raid, let alone other healers.</font></span></div>

Nacire
01-19-2006, 03:25 AM
<div></div><p>Not gonna quote the whole thing as it's gettin kinda long, if ya need it look up. ___^  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Could NOT pass up the chance to catch Bandit in a mistake about mystic spells though. LOL</p><p>Umbral Mettle Master 1</p><p>Increases Max Health of group members (AE) by 321</p><p>And some resist stuffs as well.  I was responding to the statement that ALL of our HP buffs were due to sta, when actually nearly 1k is raw hp.</p>

Banditman
01-19-2006, 08:30 PM
Yes, Umbral Mettle adds HP, I should have added that with Foretelling.  I was focused on single target stuff for some reason.However, your statement mentioned only Avatar and Mammoth as adding 1k in raw HP, which is not a true picture of what happens.  Avatar and Mammoth do not add any raw HP at all.

Nacire
01-20-2006, 11:00 PM
<div></div><p>Yeah I was trying a bit too hard to avoid the 2 mile long quote before my actual post and tried to put my own labels showing which point I was referring to, the OP used heading of Avatar/Mammoth then discussed our total ability to buff HP which I responded to but didn't do a good job of making it clear I was including stuff he left out.  My bad there. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Sunsetgirl
01-24-2006, 06:44 AM
<div></div><p>What is the true difference from a Mystic vs. a Defiler?  How much hp are we talking?  I have heard rumor that with the next epansion if you do the betrayl quest a mystic can become a defiler.  I am looking at this from a raiding stance because my guild seems to perfer Defilers over Mystics and would like to have some info on it.</p><p>Thanks</p>

Nacire
01-24-2006, 02:53 PM
<div></div><blockquote><hr>Sunsetgirl wrote:<div></div><p>What is the true difference from a Mystic vs. a Defiler?  How much hp are we talking?  I have heard rumor that with the next epansion if you do the betrayl quest a mystic can become a defiler.  I am looking at this from a raiding stance because my guild seems to perfer Defilers over Mystics and would like to have some info on it.</p><p>Thanks</p><hr></blockquote>Where the mystic buffs stamina the defiler has raw HP instead, so if the tank is already capped on STA then the defiler will grant more HP.  For the grp either will buff str the same, but the mystic can add another 59 str/sta/agil on a single target (avatar master 1) where the defiler instead gets a reverse proc slow if I remember correctly, again for a single target.  Defilers also can give some power regen to grp in form of an encounter drain that gives back to the group.  Heals are pretty even until you count torpor, defilers have all the tools we do save that one.  They get a power drain that helps them regen power, we instead get another heal that stacks with all our others and is VERY efficient.  Once you look at their lower power costs and having 2 ways to boost power regen, plus their bigger heals it all evens out though, we are pretty much dead even on healing.

Nacire
01-24-2006, 03:02 PM
<div></div><p>Did forget to mention a few points...</p><p>First we both get a single target spell that can only be cast on grp members.  For mystic that is avatar for a boost to str/sta/agi on a single target, but for the defilers it's a reverse proc slow, so if the defiler isn't in MT grp on a raid this spell is useless while the mystic can still make good use of avatar as long as they have at least one melee dps in the same grp (or use it on themself for the slight hp/avoid boost).</p><p>Also defilers ONLY slow is that reverse proc that from what I was told can't be cast outside group, so while mystic works pretty much the same from any group on a raid the defiler is at least partilally crippled as to what they can contribute if NOT in MT grp.</p>

Banditman
01-24-2006, 06:55 PM
Unless your tank is woefully low on HP I believe that a Mystic is more effective than a Defiler in the MT group.A Mystic is the better healer.  A Mystic is the better debuffer.A Defiler would actually be better served in a Scout'ish DPS group providing STR and power regen to that group, especially if no other power regen exists in it.A Mystic can also provide benefits in a Scout'ish DPS group with STR.I don't think Defilers have a pet heal spell (Umbral Attendant), which further separates Mystics as better healers.<div></div>

paisan
01-24-2006, 10:14 PM
<div></div><p>Defilers summon little triangle dealy that wards over time.</p><p>Don't forget we buff other things more than the defilers do... such as raw power by about 300, and our passive ward is physical and not magic. I believe that the differences are slight tending towards the mystic but as someone said in another forum where i was arguing this... put in the better player. Made a lot of sense.</p>

radical_EDWARD
01-24-2006, 10:38 PM
<div><blockquote><hr>paisan wrote:<div></div><p>Defilers summon little triangle dealy that wards over time.</p><p>Don't forget we buff other things more than the defilers do... such as raw power by about 300, and our passive ward is physical and not magic. I believe that the differences are slight tending towards the mystic but as someone said in another forum where i was arguing this... put in the better player. Made a lot of sense.</p><hr></blockquote>mmmm... i dont know a triangle that wards for 681 constantly for a min is alot better than a HOT badger <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

paisan
01-24-2006, 10:48 PM
<div></div>I never said that it was better. I stated that it was the defilers equivalent.

Mystiq
01-25-2006, 03:24 AM
<div></div><p>I'm not really sure I'd agree that a Mystic is better served in the MT group. Sure I used to be there back when my guild had no Defiler, but in the MT group he went, and I think overall he belongs there.</p><p>Extra hp aside, Spiritual Circle is vastly superior to our little regen pet. Something like a 500 point ward every couple seconds? And in a static location you don't have to be near for the duration. Sign me up.</p><p>As for Mystics being better healers, I don't know of any truly convincing argument as to why. We're pretty equal in that category overall, with pluses and minuses here and there.</p><p>It's the fact that we are better debuffers (by the sheer number of different debuffs we have) that convinces me we shouldn't be in the MT group when a Defiler is available. Maintaining debuffs consistently, especially 3 or more and when some have durations as short as 36 seconds, can be a full time job. With the mystic not in the MT group, that takes a lot of pressure off. You don't have to be one of the main 2 or 3 healers keeping the MT alive, constantly keeping wards up, healing and curing. Just relax in a role more suited to your skills...boosting melee dps and debuffing the snot out of raid mobs. In the off chance you can snag the Troub or Warlock in the raid for your group to buff your ordination, well all the better are you able to perform these duties.</p><p>While I miss being in the MT group for various reasons, there really isn't any particular reason why I should be in it over our Defiler.</p>

Nacire
01-25-2006, 03:39 AM
<div></div><blockquote><hr>Mystique wrote:<div></div><p>I'm not really sure I'd agree that a Mystic is better served in the MT group. Sure I used to be there back when my guild had no Defiler, but in the MT group he went, and I think overall he belongs there.</p><p>Extra hp aside, Spiritual Circle is vastly superior to our little regen pet. Something like a 500 point ward every couple seconds? And in a static location you don't have to be near for the duration. Sign me up.</p><p>As for Mystics being better healers, I don't know of any truly convincing argument as to why. We're pretty equal in that category overall, with pluses and minuses here and there.</p><p>It's the fact that we are better debuffers (by the sheer number of different debuffs we have) that convinces me we shouldn't be in the MT group when a Defiler is available. Maintaining debuffs consistently, especially 3 or more and when some have durations as short as 36 seconds, can be a full time job. With the mystic not in the MT group, that takes a lot of pressure off. You don't have to be one of the main 2 or 3 healers keeping the MT alive, constantly keeping wards up, healing and curing. Just relax in a role more suited to your skills...boosting melee dps and debuffing the snot out of raid mobs. In the off chance you can snag the Troub or Warlock in the raid for your group to buff your ordination, well all the better are you able to perform these duties.</p><p>While I miss being in the MT group for various reasons, there really isn't any particular reason why I should be in it over our Defiler.</p><hr></blockquote>This is pretty much the way I was thinkin bout it.  I'll prolly not get booted from MT grp anytime soon but if one of our defilers ever actually hit 60 and got the upgrades I have spell wise then I'd think it only right they replaced me.  Our heals are so close as to be virtually the samed once all is considered, BUT everything else I can do just as well either in or out of the MT grp while the defiler loses one of his best debuffs if not grouped with the guy getting hit.

radical_EDWARD
01-25-2006, 03:55 AM
<div><blockquote><hr>Mystique wrote:<div></div><p>I'm not really sure I'd agree that a Mystic is better served in the MT group. Sure I used to be there back when my guild had no Defiler, but in the MT group he went, and I think overall he belongs there.</p><p>Extra hp aside, Spiritual Circle is vastly superior to our little regen pet. Something like a 500 point ward every couple seconds? And in a static location you don't have to be near for the duration. Sign me up.</p><p>As for Mystics being better healers, I don't know of any truly convincing argument as to why. We're pretty equal in that category overall, with pluses and minuses here and there.</p><p>It's the fact that we are better debuffers (by the sheer number of different debuffs we have) that convinces me we shouldn't be in the MT group when a Defiler is available. Maintaining debuffs consistently, especially 3 or more and when some have durations as short as 36 seconds, can be a full time job. With the mystic not in the MT group, that takes a lot of pressure off. You don't have to be one of the main 2 or 3 healers keeping the MT alive, constantly keeping wards up, healing and curing. Just relax in a role more suited to your skills...boosting melee dps and debuffing the snot out of raid mobs. In the off chance you can snag the Troub or Warlock in the raid for your group to buff your ordination, well all the better are you able to perform these duties.</p><p>While I miss being in the MT group for various reasons, there really isn't any particular reason why I should be in it over our Defiler.</p><hr></blockquote>i agree with you almost 100% here<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> finally a cool mystic with some rational <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> except for the fact that you say mystics are better debuffers than defiler by the number of debuffs. Us defilers have a busy jobs in the debuffs department as well, counting all of my slows, resist, and stats debuffs, i have 8 debuffs total that i can toss out, (including our bloodline slow). All and all i think defilers and mystics are pretty equal, defilers are just better in MT grp.</div><div> </div><div> </div><div><img src="http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y172/emanji/emanji03.png"></div><div> </div><div> </div>

paisan
01-25-2006, 04:09 AM
<div></div><blockquote><div><blockquote><hr>i agree with you almost 100% here<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <font color="#ff3300">finally a cool mystic with some rational</font> <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> except for the fact that you say mystics are better debuffers than defiler by the number of debuffs. Us defilers have a busy jobs in the debuffs department as well, counting all of my slows, resist, and stats debuffs, i have 8 debuffs total that i can toss out, (including our bloodline slow). All and all i think defilers and mystics are pretty equal, defilers are just better in MT grp.</blockquote></div><div><hr>Ahh to achieve coolness please agree with this poster... now i see the error of my ways... /boggle</div></blockquote>

radical_EDWARD
01-25-2006, 04:19 AM
<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>paisan wrote:<div></div><blockquote><div><blockquote><hr>i agree with you almost 100% here<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <font color="#ff3300">finally a cool mystic with some rational</font> <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> except for the fact that you say mystics are better debuffers than defiler by the number of debuffs. Us defilers have a busy jobs in the debuffs department as well, counting all of my slows, resist, and stats debuffs, i have 8 debuffs total that i can toss out, (including our bloodline slow). All and all i think defilers and mystics are pretty equal, defilers are just better in MT grp.</blockquote></div><div><hr>Ahh to achieve coolness please agree with this poster... now i see the error of my ways... /boggle</div></blockquote><hr></blockquote>yay he finally gets it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> resistance is futile lol naw shes cool because shes a mystic in a raiding guild that seems to understand the situation. Which is more than i can say about you <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><p>Message Edited by radical_EDWARD on <span class="date_text">01-24-2006</span><span class="time_text">03:21 PM</span></p>

GidionSWE
01-25-2006, 05:11 AM
<div></div><p>Its simple really after having played a defiler in raid and grinded my mystic.</p><p>Mystic and defilers can both function in the MT group and do a good job but defilers might just suit it a little bit better but not to the point where if u dont have a defiler ure screwed... The big thing rly is that mystics can perform better then a defiler out of MT group, mystics wont lose as much of their abilitys as a defiler and as such the raid will benefit as a whole by having the defiler in the MT group and the mystic out of it.</p><p>easier way to look at it i guess, if u had to have 3 shamans, ud want 1 defiler and 2 mystics rather then 2 defilers and 1 mystic.</p>

Banditman
01-25-2006, 11:11 PM
The Bloodlines spell is not a Slow, it's a DPS debuff.If you hit a mob with Umbral Trap, you will not see any difference in how often it hits, but you will see a decrease in how hard the target is getting hit.  Mystics have Umbral Trap as well.Mystics better healers . . . all I need to say is Torpor right?  That's what . . . 3000 HP over 12 seconds?I understand where Mystique is coming from.  I understand that the pressure of being in that MT group is intense when you are the only Mystic on the raid and tasked with Warding, Healing and Debuffing.  I've been there, done that.  My Conjuror is a great counter to that, I can go into a raid with ZERO responsibility and that's fun.I can see situations where either would be effective.  I can see situations where one would be superior to the other.  I simply think that a Mystic overall might be slightly better.  Yes, Defilers outside the MT group do lose a lot more functionality than a Mystic does.I think perhaps that of all the Priest classes, the Shaman class might be the most closely balanced.Given equal players, you probably can't go wrong with the choice between Mystic and Defiler.  Either one will serve your raid well.  Spell quality certainly makes a difference.  Player quality makes a big difference.  Soon, AA's will make a difference as well.Your mileage will vary.<div></div>

radical_EDWARD
01-25-2006, 11:45 PM
<div></div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:The Bloodlines spell is not a Slow, it's a DPS debuff.If you hit a mob with Umbral Trap, you will not see any difference in how often it hits, but you will see a decrease in how hard the target is getting hit.  Mystics have Umbral Trap as well.Mystics better healers . . . all I need to say is Torpor right?  That's what . . . 3000 HP over 12 seconds?I understand where Mystique is coming from.  I understand that the pressure of being in that MT group is intense when you are the only Mystic on the raid and tasked with Warding, Healing and Debuffing.  I've been there, done that.  My Conjuror is a great counter to that, I can go into a raid with ZERO responsibility and that's fun.I can see situations where either would be effective.  I can see situations where one would be superior to the other.  I simply think that a Mystic overall might be slightly better.  Yes, Defilers outside the MT group do lose a lot more functionality than a Mystic does.I think perhaps that of all the Priest classes, the Shaman class might be the most closely balanced.Given equal players, you probably can't go wrong with the choice between Mystic and Defiler.  Either one will serve your raid well.  Spell quality certainly makes a difference.  Player quality makes a big difference.  Soon, AA's will make a difference as well.Your mileage will vary.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>lol thanks alot for explaining how reduce in dps is not a slow <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>anyway u keep saying that mystic is a better healer. Lets just forget that defiler heals are more powerful across the board, thats not my point. I've already said that were pretty equal in healing. Were talking about which shaman would you put in the MT grp, and pls give me a situation where you would put a mystic in place of a defiler in the MT grp. I want to hear why you would give up 300+hp, 32% dps debuff proc, and a 681 pet ward. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Nacire
01-25-2006, 11:57 PM
<div></div><blockquote><hr>radical_EDWARD wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:The Bloodlines spell is not a Slow, it's a DPS debuff.If you hit a mob with Umbral Trap, you will not see any difference in how often it hits, but you will see a decrease in how hard the target is getting hit.  Mystics have Umbral Trap as well.Mystics better healers . . . all I need to say is Torpor right?  That's what . . . 3000 HP over 12 seconds?I understand where Mystique is coming from.  I understand that the pressure of being in that MT group is intense when you are the only Mystic on the raid and tasked with Warding, Healing and Debuffing.  I've been there, done that.  My Conjuror is a great counter to that, I can go into a raid with ZERO responsibility and that's fun.I can see situations where either would be effective.  I can see situations where one would be superior to the other.  I simply think that a Mystic overall might be slightly better.  Yes, Defilers outside the MT group do lose a lot more functionality than a Mystic does.I think perhaps that of all the Priest classes, the Shaman class might be the most closely balanced.Given equal players, you probably can't go wrong with the choice between Mystic and Defiler.  Either one will serve your raid well.  Spell quality certainly makes a difference.  Player quality makes a big difference.  Soon, AA's will make a difference as well.Your mileage will vary.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>lol thanks alot for explaining how reduce in dps is not a slow <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>anyway u keep saying that mystic is a better healer. Lets just forget that defiler heals are more powerful across the board, thats not my point. I've already said that were pretty equal in healing. Were talking about which shaman would you put in the MT grp, and pls give me a situation where you would put a mystic in place of a defiler in the MT grp. I want to hear why you would give up 300+hp, 32% dps debuff proc, and a 681 pet ward. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><hr></blockquote><p>While responding on several of these same themed threads I have supported that the Defiller is the more logical MT grp choice in MOST cases based on the fact that they would lose a lot of their raid contribution in any other group whereas we mystics retain almost all of our usefulness.  The tone of your "we pwn you" posts though I just have to respond to...  You want an example?  Here ya go.</p><p>In actual play our main MT rarely ever hits stamina cap even with MY (nearly fully master equipped mystic, inclu sta buffs) buffs on him.  Now he could put in a defiler, and have the troub swap buffs to keep his stamina up as well but then we have lesser resists, and MUCH lower avoid as well as less room for the troub to use debuffs as some of those require concentration on the troub.  Yes he CAN be stamina capped without me, but it's at the sacrifice of a lot else.  Basically we can slot the defiler in and lose around 10% avoidance on the MT or slot me in and have virtually the same HP (within 100hp since tank is NOT sta capped) with the higher avoid.  Hmm, 10% less hits taken, or 100 more hp?  Not a hard choice.  Now other tanks may not have this issue and may self STA cap, but ours doesn't, and this is a situation where the mystic is the better choice.</p><p>I still hold that the defiler would USUALLY be better served in the MT grp if played equally well and equally upgraded.  That's one honkin big if though, a badly played defiler OR mystic would be better replaced for a pally to suplement the heals, player skill is the most important thing as is usually the case.  Defiler != God</p>

Banditman
01-26-2006, 02:09 AM
Are you really arrogant enough to believe that your 32% DPS debuff is all that?A Mystic has one as well.  So do MANY MANY other classes.  And they ALL stack.  Up to the cap of course.  Once you hit that cap, no further debuff of that type means anything.  I can hit the debuff cap all by my little lonesome as a Mystic, so can a Defiler.  But neither of us has a lock on that.  Other people do it.As has been explained many times already, there are certain situations where one or the other would be desired or advantageous and other situations where it just plain doesn't matter.As I said before, and repeat again here, your mileage will vary.<div></div>

radical_EDWARD
01-26-2006, 03:14 AM
<div><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:Are you really arrogant enough to believe that your 32% DPS debuff is all that?A Mystic has one as well.  So do MANY MANY other classes.  And they ALL stack.  Up to the cap of course.  Once you hit that cap, no further debuff of that type means anything.  I can hit the debuff cap all by my little lonesome as a Mystic, so can a Defiler.  But neither of us has a lock on that.  Other people do it.As has been explained many times already, there are certain situations where one or the other would be desired or advantageous and other situations where it just plain doesn't matter.As I said before, and repeat again here, your mileage will vary.<div></div><hr></blockquote>lol i rest my case. mystics are awesome <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> GL killing raid mobs <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

Banditman
01-26-2006, 07:32 PM
There is no luck involved.  Thanks anyway.<div></div>

Eileithia
01-26-2006, 10:31 PM
<div></div><p>Just going to pipe in my 2cp..</p><p>Really.. the difference between a Mystic and a Defiler in the MT group is fairly minimal.. and as many have stated it's very situational.. If you have a case where the MT is already at or near the STA cap.. it would be better to throw in a defiler just for those extra HP.. Also the Defiler proc DOES proc quite a lot.. yes it's only 25%, but it still goes off every fight..</p><p>As to the avoidance thing.. When you're fighting High Yellow - Orange epics.. Avoidance means Jack really.. an extra 10% avoidance isn't going to do anything unless you're fighting trash mobs.. as you're not avoiding ANY hits.. those mobs will hit you every time.. and if you avoid ONE hit.. you're doing well..</p><p>Personally, I would throw a mystic in a group with a ranger / assassin and give them Avitar.. just my opinion, but that's what we tend to do.. the STR / AGI / STA buff of avitar on a well equiped scout can increase their DPS by quite a lot.. even putting it on an off tank.. or god forbid you have 4 guardians on a raid (we do frequently).. giving one of them Avitar to increase their DPS will help..</p><p>Both have their advantages.. and as many others have said.. the role of a shamen should be Debuff first, heal second.. no matter what group you're in.. and placement for a few buffs either way doesn't really matter.. we've been sucessful with either a Mystic or Defiler, in the MT group.. and there are very minimal differences either way..</p><p>I agree with another poster that said we're probably the 2 most balanced classes in this game..</p>

Anadorn
01-29-2006, 01:51 PM
<div></div>I would have to say I agree that mystics are better served outside the MT group.  While we would do just fine in the MT group, some of the spells the defiler has pretty much commit them.  While we aren't the best healers out there we aren't all that bad and torpor is an excellent spell,  We have decent buffs that can be matched and beat in different catagories of each class but tend to usually favor the defiler.  We have excellent debuffs for the mob, and we can heal a bit and ward (however wards in raids usually get eaten up just as quick as you cast them).  Now in a raid of course it doesn't matter what group your in for debuffs and heals, so the only catagory left is of course the buffs which typicaly we are beat.  I think the mystic has a bit more variety of where they an be plaed in  raid, where as a defiler really needs to be where the damage is going to be.  Only thing I wish they would do with the class is make the free wards and such group/raid, all except the group ward of course.  Umbral savior would be nice, been at a couple raids where all the healers are fighting their timers to heal in the first couple seconds to get him debuffed, with an extra little boost to his health we'd buy a couple extra seconds and the free ward wouldn't be so bad to save an extra shot or something, it's a nice spell to throw on the rangers or wizz'y if they pull agro but only if im grouped with them.~Just my 2 coppers worth--Note-- Sorry forgot to mention that we are great at removing debuffs as well.  Yes the defilers get a group cure stun (note that it's group) and the recast time is alot longer than ours which can be cast outside of the group.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Anadorn on <span class="date_text">01-29-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:55 AM</span></p>