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Banditman
11-10-2005, 07:35 PM
A little voice tells me there are fixes coming that should make Mystics and Defilers very happy . . .

dennis
11-10-2005, 07:54 PM
Sounds interesting Banditman. Could you be a bit more specific perhaps? <span>:smileytongue:</span> <div></div>

trin ka
11-10-2005, 08:01 PM
If its got anything to do with arseless chaps, I know a certain mystic thats grinning.

Banditman
11-10-2005, 08:45 PM
I am confirming with my source whether I am allowed to make the information public or not.  I don't want to abuse the priviledge of using this source.

Eepop
11-10-2005, 09:22 PM
While details are nice, its probably best to give them the freedom to adjust what they are planning.  If Banditman thinks it will make us very happy, thats good enough for me. <div></div>

Homj
11-10-2005, 09:48 PM
they will add ward absorption data into the log file?

paisan
11-11-2005, 12:02 AM
<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> trin kahl wrote:<BR>If its got anything to do with arseless chaps, I know a certain mystic thats grinning. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I've got a rare pelt saved in my bank just in case this ever happens. I'll be the first to smile to you as im walking toward you as well as away from you...</DIV>

Banditman
11-11-2005, 12:54 AM
<div></div>Sweet.  Got the ok to share with you guys.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I'm gonna post the entire thread (minus a couple of posts that didn't add or detract from the discussion).  You'll get the idea.<div align="center"><hr></div><p>Banditman wrote:I've tried to keep quiet about it, to wait patiently for an answer, a solution, an acknowledgment . . . anything from the Developers about a couple of significant problems that Mystics have faced since LU13.  Given the changes we received, we were in good shape compared to prior months and thus able to cope with these problems for a while.However, with the end game now looming for many of Mystics, these problems take on a more significant and pressing complexion.<u><span>Wards:</span></u>First, our Wards do not stack in any manner whatsoever.  It does absolutely no good to have any more than one Ward on any given target.  Let me say right up front I do understand why unlimited serial stacking of multiple Wards is not allowed.  It would certainly unbalance Mystics to the point that we could make a target completely impervious to damage indefinitely.However, some form of compromise needs to be reached.  No other Priest class is saddled with this handicap.  A Cleric can stack both single target and group versions of their specialty heal on a MT and receive the full benefit of both.  A Druid can likewise stack both single target and group versions of their heal on a MT and receive the full benefit of both.This handicap is especially painful in the end game raid scene.  Is there a Ward on the MT?  My maintained icon just disappeared.  Oops!  I just replaced the Defiler's undamaged Ward.Here are a couple options.First, allow one group Ward and one single target Ward to stack serially on a target.  This would be in keeping with what other Priests are able to do as they can all put one group specialty and one single target specialty on a target for full effect.  Still, I can understand how this could easily become overpowered.  The absolute last thing in the world I want for Shaman is to see them overpowered.Alternately, and perhaps more interestingly, would be to allow a "push" to take place.  When a new single target Ward lands on a target which already has a single target Ward, have the new Ward "push" the old Ward off and perform the on termination effect (if any) at 30 to 50 percent of the normal power.  I can understand again how allowing the "push" to perform on termination at full strength could easily be overpowering, thus I suggest that "push" cut the power of the on termination effect.I would like to reiterate that I do not want to see Shaman overpowered.  That is absolutely the last thing I want to see.<u><span>Aggro:</span></u>This is becoming an increasing problem.  Both Mystics and Defilers have an issue with this that is believed to be related to the line of buffs that starts with Spirit of the Badger in the teens.  The tiny Ward attached to this spell appears to be causing a disproportionate amount of aggro.You can easily witness the effects of this by having a group member other than the Shaman proximity aggro any mob.  The mob will take one swing at the player who aggro'ed and then immediately ping pong to the Shaman.  Every time.In a standard grouping situation this problem is fairly innocuous and for the most part can be dealt with through good play by a tank.However, in the case where a second encounter might add while a first encounter is engaged, this buff will almost always lead to the Shaman being pulped by the added encounter.  A *really* good tank can save this situation . . . *if* he has a group taunt up and *if* the Shaman can live long enough for him to get in range and perform it and *if* the tank has enough aggro to hold the initial encounter while taunting a second encounter.  A lot of if's there, and you can begin to see the problem.Still, the truly nasty part of this is in an endgame raid situation where mobs move SO quickly and are MUCH more likely to resist the taunt, or, better, when an encounter is geographically diverse.  In these situations, it's pretty much inevitable that the Shaman will be getting whacked.Considering the already existing problem of Wards not stacking, this tiny Ward is constantly adding it's aggro even when another Ward is actually taking the damage.  This makes a Shaman reside far higher on the hate list than another Priest dealing with the same encounter.This tiny Ward needs to be zero aggro.  None.  Nada.  Zip.  Zilch.  Nothing.  It isn't actually doing anything for preventing damage due to stacking issues, therefore, should not be adding to our aggro.These two issues are getting louder and louder.  They aren't going to go away.  I've tried to downplay them as long as possible, but the complete lack of acknowledgment or attention to them is starting to annoy even the most patient.  These are problems with the core abilities of the class.I am making this approach at a reasoned, calm, logical explanation and request for information.  If it takes screaming and yelling and [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing and whining and general hooliganary to get it addressed, I can go that route.  It is not my first choice.  I would prefer it be addressed, acknowledged and corrected in a calm, thought out and prompt manner.Thank you.</p><div align="center"><hr></div> <div align="center"><hr></div><p>Silverfrost wrote:</p><p>Regarding the aggro issue, I've found a bug that is affecting the Mystic Shield and Dire Shroud lines of spells.  Once fixed these spells should no longer create aggro when they mitigate damage.</p><p>Message Edited by Silverfrost on <span class="datetext">11-09-2005</span><span class="timetext">05:</span><span class="timetext">10 PM</span></p><div align="center"><hr></div><div align="center"><hr></div><p>Silverfrost wrote:</p><p>On the stacking issue I've also found a bug that was causing both wards to be drained whenever damage was mitigated, fixing...</p><div align="center"><hr></div><div align="center"><hr></div><p>Silverfrost wrote:K, you're all fixed up.  I'll try to get this hotfixed out.  Wards will now stack correctly, previously when wards stacked they generated double hate with no benefit since both wards were mitigating the damage.</p><div align="center"><hr></div><div align="center"><hr></div><p>Banditman wrote:Are we allowed to share this information with the community ?<!-- [if !supportLineBreakNewLine] --><!-- [endif] --></p><div align="center"><hr></div><div align="center"><hr></div><p>Silverfrost wrote:</p><p>Go ahead and talk about it, we're hoping (but not promising) that this fix will go live in the Friday AM patch.</p><div align="center"><hr></div>All credit for fixing this issue goes to Silverfrost.  He took the time to understand the problem, take an honest look at it and find multiple problems which he promptly corrected.

thedu
11-11-2005, 01:49 AM
<P>/does a little jig.</P> <P>Thanks Bandit.  I knew I wasn't going crazy with that aggro thing...:smileytongue:</P>

Tsark
11-11-2005, 01:54 AM
Thanks for looking out for us, Banditman!I've been pulped several times, usually while doing guard towers in Maj'Dul. This will let the fighters relax a bit, and still let me keep that buff up for the physical mitigation and tiny caster-saving ward.Edit to rephrase: Thanks Banditman for pushing our issues to those that can help, and thanks Silverfrost for listening, understanding, and correcting the problems. I've been playing since release, and I'm loving the direction things are going. Keep up the great work!<p>Message Edited by Tsark on <span class=date_text>11-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:59 PM</span>

Banditman
11-11-2005, 01:56 AM
All thanks go to Silverfrost.  As I said, he took the time to listen, understand and take an honest look at the situation.

paisan
11-11-2005, 02:05 AM
<DIV>Excellent... even better than the chaps.</DIV>

trin ka
11-11-2005, 02:33 AM
<DIV>I know one guild that wont be laughing its butt off anymore when the mobs run 35 yards just to smack me around. Thanks for the attention.....I wonder what all the posts are going to be about in the mystic forums now that this  has hopefully gone away.  And if they did in fact fix the hate issue, I'm no longer the chaps in my guild.</DIV>

Tylee
11-11-2005, 03:46 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> paisan wrote:<BR> <DIV>Excellent... even better than the chaps.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Excellent news, Very happy and much thanks to Banditman for shareing and takign the problems to the top.  </P> <P>   but the day we get arseless chaps on mistmoore im running in fear!</P>

Raler
11-11-2005, 05:10 AM
<P>Good to see both of these issues are finally getting fixed.  I may start playing my mystic for more than 30 minutes a week again.  </P> <P>Too bad that it took so long with so many people complaining before someone at SOE finally took the time to look at the code and fix it.</P>

icetower
11-11-2005, 09:01 AM
<DIV>Good job getting a response.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What the hell is the point of these forums since these issues have been posted over and over again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Obviously nobody at SoE has been reading them, and from the reply given, it doesn't sound like it took too much time and effort to find the problem and fix it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

thedu
11-11-2005, 10:43 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> icetower wrote:<BR> <DIV>Good job getting a response.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What the hell is the point of these forums since these issues have been posted over and over again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Obviously nobody at SoE has been reading them, and from the reply given, it doesn't sound like it took too much time and effort to find the problem and fix it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>Are you kidding?? There must be a billion (well, ok, thousands) of posts. You can't expect anyone to go through everything. I believe that's why some dedicated people like Banditman and Mystique were elected point people for the mystics, and no doubt others for other classes.  And because they can't know everything either we can post it on here so that they can bring it up to SoE. (Unless I totally got that wrong from previous posts).<BR></P>

Peri
11-11-2005, 11:42 AM
it's good to come back to the game after nearly 8 months and see Banditman is still carrying our torch./salute<div></div>

dennis
11-11-2005, 12:17 PM
Sounds really good I feel like this is the first time someone has actually heard what we are saying?! Great job there Banditman and Silverfrost.<span>:smileyhappy:</span> <div></div>

Frogsley
11-11-2005, 01:30 PM
<DIV>*does a little jig*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thank you banditman for continuing to plug away at it and silverfrost for actually listening and taking time to do something about it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

Madhog_McMad
11-11-2005, 03:12 PM
Thanks should go to Banditman for pushing this. No news on the arseless pants then? <div></div>

CallMeToyMan
11-11-2005, 04:01 PM
Awesome! Runic Talisman had become more or less useless to me in raid situations for the reasons you explained.  Good to hear that I'll finally be able to use it again. Also good to hear something is being done about the stacking issue.  I still couldn't quite tell from your post how the stacked wards are handled, or if they just fixed hate generated by stack wards, but I presume the intent is that stacked wards actually protect for more damage than one ward. <font size="2"></font> <div></div>

Banditman
11-11-2005, 09:23 PM
<P>The impression I got from Silverfrost (and you guys have seen everything he's posted in response, so you have all the information I do) is that multiple Wards should not be taking damage simultaneously.  Each Ward should take damage until it is depleted and then the next should take effect.</P> <P>My assumption is that it will work just like the other Priests.  If, for instance, I have Sacred Aegis on a target and someone tries to put Ancestral Aegis on, they will get the message "Would not take effect".  This is what happens to the other Priests.  If I have Sacred Aegis on a target, and someone else casts Sacred Aegis, their Ward replaces mine.  This is also in accordance with what other Priests experience.</P> <P>What we have gotten is no different than what other Priests have.  The ability to use both of our specialty heals simultaneously to full effect.</P>

paisan
11-11-2005, 10:30 PM
<DIV>I think i have an equation for this...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Group Ward + Single ward + Torpor + Oberon = (/drool)</DIV>

Naithik
11-11-2005, 10:59 PM
<P>Nice fix you are getting there <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Now I'll need to play with paisanos more often... Not sure that's a good thing... oh well, a fix is always a good thing <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

trin ka
11-11-2005, 11:18 PM
<DIV> <P>Silverfrost wrote:</P> <P>Go ahead and talk about it, we're hoping (but not promising) that this fix will go live in the Friday AM patch.</P> <P>-----did this fix go live this morning? Not being a Gov. employee I am at work.</P></DIV>

Finora
11-11-2005, 11:22 PM
<P>WOO!</P> <P>Thanks Silverfrost for fixing and Banditman for not letting it drop.</P>

paisan
11-11-2005, 11:37 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Naithik wrote:<BR> <P>Nice fix you are getting there <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Now I'll need to play with paisanos more often... Not sure that's a good thing... oh well, a fix is always a good thing <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yer after me lucky charms...

Godflower
11-11-2005, 11:44 PM
<DIV>^^^ they're magically delicious!:smileysurprised:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Many thanks Banditman & Silverfrost!  :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Are we running out of things to gripe about?  oh ya... I want more DPS! and I dont want to have to spend rubies to get it! :smileymad: </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>:smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Godflower on <SPAN class=date_text>11-11-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:48 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Godflower on <span class=date_text>11-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:48 PM</span>

Terq
11-11-2005, 11:53 PM
By the way Bandit, great job laying out the issue in an easy to follow guide.  /golf clap.  From your posts here, I had no idea you could be so diplomatic.  :smileywink: <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

CallMeToyMan
11-12-2005, 12:21 AM
<div></div>I dont think Runic Talisman is fixed.  I put it up, had the tank run in and proximity pull, the ward goes off, bang the whole group went right for me.  What was the fix suppose to do? p.s. I tried again and sometimes they don't come for me.  Not sure whats up. <div></div><p>Message Edited by CallMeToyMan on <span class=date_text>11-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:44 AM</span>

Tothemoon
11-12-2005, 12:37 AM
Rejoices!!!!!   Thank you so very much Silverfrost and Banditman  :smileyhappy:

Mor
11-12-2005, 12:45 AM
'Bout time.  Congratulations, mystics! <div></div>

FXDXArien
11-12-2005, 01:37 AM
<DIV><FONT size=2>Woohoo thank you!  I can't wait to get home and play! :smileyvery-happy:</FONT></DIV>

trin ka
11-12-2005, 02:33 AM
<DIV>No reply on whether they did in fact put the hot fix in this mornings patch. Any of you playing eq2 today notice if the wards are stacking/hate removed from runic line? Still at work ready to jump in my rare chevy Colbalt to go home and play.</DIV>

Tylee
11-12-2005, 11:45 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> paisan wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Naithik wrote:<BR> <P>Nice fix you are getting there <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Now I'll need to play with paisanos more often... Not sure that's a good thing... oh well, a fix is always a good thing <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yer after me lucky charms... <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well yer the one who picked the arseless pants...  when ya hang the lucky charms out there for the world, there has to be some form of reaction

icetower
11-12-2005, 01:11 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> thedump wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> icetower wrote:<BR> <DIV>Good job getting a response.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What the hell is the point of these forums since these issues have been posted over and over again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Obviously nobody at SoE has been reading them, and from the reply given, it doesn't sound like it took too much time and effort to find the problem and fix it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>Are you kidding?? There must be a billion (well, ok, thousands) of posts. You can't expect anyone to go through everything. I believe that's why some dedicated people like Banditman and Mystique were elected point people for the mystics, and no doubt others for other classes.  And because they can't know everything either we can post it on here so that they can bring it up to SoE. (Unless I totally got that wrong from previous posts).<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>No I'm not kidding. This problem is highlighted in some of the largest posts in this forum, conveniently headed Mystic Problems or similar titles. So If you were the person whos job it was to oversee class issues, it would be stupidly obvious even if you only had 5 minutes out of your busy schedule in the last month to glance at the mystic board.</DIV> <DIV>How many other people have used /bug /feedback on this issue since dof release?</DIV> <DIV>For that matter, how many red replies have you ever seen in this forum?</DIV> <DIV>Waste of [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing time.</DIV>

Mercr
11-12-2005, 03:21 PM
<P>So how do the wards work exactly now?  For a specific example, Lets say I have torpor and single target ward up.  Damage usually busts through torpor.  Will this damage now be eaten by the single target ward?  And on the next tick, will the torpor ward be the first to mitigate damage or does the single target ward now take the brunt until down?  It will be real nice if regening wards always take the first hit with just the static wards there to absorb spill-over.</P> <P>For that matter, is it even possible to parse which ward is taking the damage since unless I am mistaken, the ward message just says damage was blocked but does not indicate which ward blocked the damage.</P>

icetower
11-12-2005, 07:50 PM
<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mercrev wrote:<BR> <P>So how do the wards work exactly now?  For a specific example, Lets say I have torpor and single target ward up.  Damage usually busts through torpor.  Will this damage now be eaten by the single target ward?  And on the next tick, will the torpor ward be the first to mitigate damage or does the single target ward now take the brunt until down?  It will be real nice if regening wards always take the first hit with just the static wards there to absorb spill-over.</P> <P>For that matter, is it even possible to parse which ward is taking the damage since unless I am mistaken, the ward message just says damage was blocked but does not indicate which ward blocked the damage.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>While parsing won't directly show which ward is taking damage by name, it would be testable by getting health down bit,  taking some of hits with both wards up, (probly a duel with a friend would be good to control damage below and above torpors ward value) then seeing how much you get healed for each time when the non regenerating ward expires.If it heals for its full amount, then the regen ward took the damage first and so on.</DIV>

Darkstu
11-12-2005, 10:29 PM
<DIV>Oh no!  I was getting so close to having the most deaths on my server! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

Jays
11-13-2005, 04:36 PM
<P>I always thought proximity pulls to be bad news for mystics anyway, the agro generated during a body pull on the tank is minimal, so am hardly suprised that a ward of any description gives me the agro. I would have thought that Wards will generate hate no matter how small they are. Proximity aggro appears to be less.</P> <P align=left>Ummari, Mystique of the Shard</P>

Kana
11-14-2005, 09:57 AM
<DIV>Per the update notes of 11/11:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV><STRONG>Ward Spells:<BR></STRONG>- The spell lines that begin with Spirit of the Badger no longer generate aggro when their ward effect absorbs damage.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I played a lot this weekend, and I haven't noticed any change.  The ward component of Runic Talisman is still generating aggro.  I had our tank do multiple proximity pulls, as well as intentionally move into the path of adds, and sure enough, they still come straight for me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can anyone else confirm?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Kanali - 58 Mystic - Steamfont</STRONG></DIV>

Eepop
11-15-2005, 09:31 PM
Are you prewarding? <div></div>

tebion
11-15-2005, 09:47 PM
on the templar board some guy posted a very very interesting idea imo which could be connected to this problem. when the tank runs out of buff-range, he looses all buffs once he returns into your buff-range, he gets all maintained buffs back at once -> it could count as if he was freshly buffed by you that way. and that could be a whole wagonload of aggro, hehe not sure if it really acts like this, but at least it sounds reasonable and at least possible. <div></div>

paisan
11-15-2005, 09:53 PM
That definitely sounds reasonable and would also explain why the proximity agro was affecting other priests in groups as well, just not as bad as ours with the ward on there. The only catch is that people have tested proximity adds with a shammy in group with no buffs on.

tebion
11-15-2005, 10:05 PM
<span><blockquote><hr>paisan wrote:The only catch is that people have tested proximity adds with a shammy in group with no buffs on. <div></div><hr></blockquote>yup, <u>before</u> they changed that the small wards give no aggro, maybe now its different and prolly a heal (ward in our case) is worth more aggro than some buffs</span><div></div>

Banditman
11-15-2005, 10:10 PM
<div></div>Ok. When a mob is prox aggro'ed, as near as I can tell there should be no reason for a mob to attack the Mystic unless the Mystic takes action or has taken the action of pre-Warding the person who does the prox aggro. This should be very easy to confirm, and it needs to be confirmed.  Group with one other person.  Both remove all buffs.  Non Mystic prox aggro a mob (green, lets be safe out there).  Non Mystic takes no other action.  Does the mob take any action on the Mystic if the Mystic takes no action? Mystic casts Runic.  Non Mystic prox aggro a mob.  Non Mystic takes no other action.  Does the mob now take action on the Mystic if the Mystic takes no action? I need those two situations tested and confirmed.  I can't do this from work, but I'm sure we have an enterprising soul able to do this quickly. Edited for clarity.<p>Message Edited by Banditman on <span class=date_text>11-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:12 PM</span>

Mercr
11-15-2005, 10:56 PM
<P>Might as well test to see if the other person coming back in range of buffs pulls aggro too while at it.  That should be easy to throw into the mix of that test.</P> <P> </P> <P>Have Mystic with Runic on and nonMystic prox pulls a mob outside of Runics effective range and then runs back into it.</P>