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silverx
01-20-2005, 06:49 PM
<DIV>Alright, I'm sure that all my fellow mystics out there can relate when I share this somewhat short little rant.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Last night, in the Thundering Steppes, I was in a full group, several tanks (three, if I recall correctly), a caster, a bard, and myself.  I made it perfectly clear that I only wanted to go around for experience, and that I wasn't in the mood for getting a faction hit with the centaurs just yet (as per the recommendations of two of my real life EverQuest friends), and we all agreed on that from the get-go.  So, there we are, hunting giants just fine for about an hour or so, raking in decent experience, and then the group starts to bicker and whine.  Thus, unraveling the joo joo that we had had going for that past hour.  It started out relatively small, with the caster pulling the aggro without even a second's notice.  I was able to jump on that, and keep the caster alive for that encounter, and then we got it fixed.  I made it clear that, "Hey kiddies, I'm sure your parents taught you about sharing, but please... <STRONG>don't share aggro</STRONG>."  It was agreed, and we were just fine for the next several encounters.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Unfortunately, the three tanks got into what I can only describe as an "aggro battle", and the aggro kept shifting almost every five seconds.  Suffice it to say, that encounter ended with the death of who was supposed to be our MT.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>MT: "[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]?!?!  what happened???"</DIV> <DIV>Me: "The aggro was shifting faster than my spells could recast.  I told you guys that we need to have one MT, and not share the aggro... it's common knowledge."</DIV> <DIV>Tank #2: "Who cares?"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>...I gotta say... that one comment... really ticked me off big time.  In my two months of playing EQ2, I've <STRONG>never</STRONG> heard anyone use the words "who cares" when it comes to aggro.  <STRONG><EM>Ever</EM></STRONG>.  And of course, the MT fortunately seemed to share my attitude about this, and we ended up getting rid of the second tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In short, call me whiney, call me a baby, but dammit, don't shift the aggro! ><</DIV>

BigDa
01-20-2005, 06:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> silverx10 wrote:<BR> <DIV>...In short, call me whiney, call me a baby, but dammit, don't shift the aggro! ><</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Hehe, I'm sure every healer would sympathise there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One thing I've noticed lately and had other people say is that druids seem to get a LOT of aggro.  I regularly group with one and she can get aggro when doing nothing, never mind healing.  Anyone else see this?</DIV>

Fel
01-20-2005, 08:26 PM
<DIV>TS was my least favorite zone for reasons simalr to this.  Most people are still getting to know their archtypes.  People are starting to feel the first tinge of the grind or slower exp.  In 50% of the pickup groups I found there were people who were never happy with good steady exp.  There was always the newb that wanted to do ++ blood red Gaints because they were the only good exp in the zone.  This group range is were people should be catching onto group dynamics.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Somtimes it's painfull to watch people learn.</DIV>

Karla
01-20-2005, 08:49 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> silverx10 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Alright, I'm sure that all my fellow mystics out there can relate when I share this somewhat short little rant.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Last night, in the Thundering Steppes, I was in a full group, several tanks (three, if I recall correctly), a caster, a bard, and myself.  I made it perfectly clear that I only wanted to go around for experience, and that I wasn't in the mood for getting a faction hit with the centaurs just yet (as per the recommendations of two of my real life EverQuest friends), and we all agreed on that from the get-go.  So, there we are, hunting giants just fine for about an hour or so, raking in decent experience, and then the group starts to bicker and whine.  Thus, unraveling the joo joo that we had had going for that past hour.  It started out relatively small, with the caster pulling the aggro without even a second's notice.  I was able to jump on that, and keep the caster alive for that encounter, and then we got it fixed.  I made it clear that, "Hey kiddies, I'm sure your parents taught you about sharing, but please... <STRONG>don't share aggro</STRONG>."  It was agreed, and we were just fine for the next several encounters.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Unfortunately, the three tanks got into what I can only describe as an "aggro battle", and the aggro kept shifting almost every five seconds.  Suffice it to say, that encounter ended with the death of who was supposed to be our MT.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>MT: "[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]?!?!  what happened???"</DIV> <DIV>Me: "The aggro was shifting faster than my spells could recast.  I told you guys that we need to have one MT, and not share the aggro... it's common knowledge."</DIV> <DIV>Tank #2: "Who cares?"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>...I gotta say... that one comment... really ticked me off big time.  In my two months of playing EQ2, I've <STRONG>never</STRONG> heard anyone use the words "who cares" when it comes to aggro.  <STRONG><EM>Ever</EM></STRONG>.  And of course, the MT fortunately seemed to share my attitude about this, and we ended up getting rid of the second tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In short, call me whiney, call me a baby, but dammit, don't shift the aggro! ><</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>As my mystic I fully relate and ya it sucks</P> <P>When I play my warden all I can say is [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] thats to bad for you, cus I can handle aggro shift with no problem.<BR></P>

Cor
01-20-2005, 08:50 PM
<DIV>:smileyvery-happy: I have seen the Druid love BigDave.  My guild's druid can just stand on the sidelines watching our tank pull with his bow and, sure enough, if the tank doesn't get his taunt off in time the mob will run right past him to attack the Druid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have to agree with the OP.  Aggro wars are something that happens way too often in multi-tank groups in the early part of the game. Luckily my guild tanks know better. :smileyhappy:</DIV>

Jerh
01-20-2005, 11:55 PM
<DIV>At X-mass time a lot of now people got this game. Mostly kids, now a lot of kids I have seen play these games are great players, but a lot are not. And I think the xmass wave has added a lot of people who are less interested in understanding group dynamics. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So for the next few weeks, you’re going to have to play teacher a little more if you play a lot in pickup groups. It might have been a legitimate question.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally, when I am main healer, the tank will NOT die till I run out of mana. That’s the way it is. If that means the other 4 die and then we die so be it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the tank dies, that’s your fault.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If someone else dies, that’s either the tanks fault or the player that pulled agro’s fault. In your case, it’s the player that pulled agro’s fault.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will heal here and there on other players if I think it’s not going to impact my ability to keep the tank alive, but the MA always comes first.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you had let him die, he would have had the answer to the “who cares” question <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></DIV>

Jerh
01-21-2005, 12:06 AM
<DIV>I guess you could have been saying:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>“If you want to do something other can keep the party alive, play another class.”</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If that’s where you were getting at, let clear up why I debuff. I debuff for the sole purpose of keeping the tank alive. It greatly reduces the amount of healing/warding needed to sustain him. So the most effective way for a Mystic to do there intended job, is to debuff.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If this is not what you were driving at, please explain.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Jerh
01-21-2005, 12:07 AM
<DIV>grrrr!!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>wrong thread!!!!</DIV>

Blackseatig
01-21-2005, 12:49 PM
<DIV>I agree with the previous post about kids in this game...or people acting like kids...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Last night I was fighting some mobs in TS. It usually take 2-3 mins for me to kill one. While I was fighting, I saw 2 players running up to me. They stood next to me to watch me fight. After a while, one of them moved his back directly in front of me (guess he was trying to block my view) and stood there for the entire fight (I hit F9 and ignored him). The other guy started to jump over my head repeatedly from left to right then right to left then left to right............after the fight they both rushed to the chest and stood there and then spammed "Hail *myname" "Hail *myname" like 20+ times. I ignored and ran away. Then I got the invite window from these guys about 10 times in one minute.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was actually scared lol so I logged off and didn't go back for an hour.</DIV>

silverx
01-21-2005, 06:30 PM
<DIV>Haha, wow... gotta love the maturity from some of the younger players. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </DIV>

Kade
01-22-2005, 04:15 AM
That's in-game harassment, friend, having someone jump all over you like that, spam hails and repeated group invites./ignore only goes so far.I'd have reported it.

Ironmaul1
01-24-2005, 11:33 PM
Some of the Druid heals have buff attributes, if you ask them NOT to cast those heals you will notice a huge difference,happened to me and problem was solved.

Spag
01-26-2005, 02:08 AM
<DIV>Silver,</DIV> <DIV>   I definitely understand where you are coming from, I would have let Tank 2 die.  From what you said it was clear he was trying to get aggro mid fight for the hell of it.  I would have let him die, discussed this with him before rezzing, and when he said, who cares, kicked him from group and let him fend for himself to get his shard.  But thats just me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is also why I avoid multiple tank groups, as I have had 2 tanks battle for aggro before as well.  Not fun, no reason for it, more down time.  End result stick with 1 tank groups when you can.</DIV>

silverx
01-26-2005, 02:32 AM
<DIV>Actually, I'd considered that for more than a moment, but in the end, the fear of any further experience debt kinda made me shy away from the entire thing ultimately.  True, it would've been more experience debt for him, plus a trip to the mender, but in the end, it was that extra one to three percent increase in my own debt that made me... not do it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree, though... in most cases with groups with more than one tank, it's had a horrible outcome.  One tank, two healers, couple scouts, and an illusionist has been my best group thus far.</DIV>

Spag
01-26-2005, 03:26 AM
<DIV>I was referring to, if someone had to die, it would be tank 2 instead of tank 1.  End result same amount of debt for you, but atleast tank 1 did not get screwed over.  In either case debt is nothing, I dont worry about debt.  I don't like dying either, but debt from group I dont really worry about.  My character can sleep it off for a few days while I level up an alt.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think the best group I have been in has been 1 tank, 1 healer, and 3 (or 4) DPS .  Anything more than 1 healer is overkill, or so I have seen.  I would rather have the extra DPS.  Also having 2 of the same subclass is not as effective as 2 from different subclasses.  For example, a Swashbuckler and Troubador is much better than 2 Swashies, 2 Troubs or 2 Rangers.  Same goes for the Mage class/subclasses.  Especially if you go Sorcorer/Enchanter  When you have 2 of the same subclass, their buffs, debuffs wont stack, and you are missing out on that extra flavor.  I am not saying turn them away if you have an opening and nobody else, but dont go looking for the same subclass that is in the group.</DIV>

silverx
01-26-2005, 04:16 AM
<DIV>For the most part, I level up in the Thundering Steppes, so my wards are almost essentially useless at 25.  And I'm not too big on what few single player heals that the Mystic has been given, either, so... my usefulness is almost totally null and void.  However, I continue to see my role in the group to be the warder, regardless of how short they may last up against any giant, griffon, centaur, etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>...and before anyone flames, I don't really give a dang about the centaur faction hit, because Tsirrin was the first actual character I ever created, so... harvesting for my tradeskilling isn't really big on me right now.  I've got patience to wait until the centaurs have gone grey at whatever level it is they grey out to me. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But anyway, the two healers are for a primary/secondary system, where if one has uberlong recast times on spells, the other can pick up the slack.  Gives me a lot less to stress over, anyway. </DIV>

Spag
01-26-2005, 09:37 PM
<DIV>Not attacking you in any way, I am only going by what I have seen so far.  Each group I had been in, the 2nd healer just eneded up attempting to be DPS.  The only time they were useful was when we had an Add.</DIV>

Banditman
01-26-2005, 09:40 PM
<DIV>I have found some legit 2 healer needed fights in Nek Castle.</DIV>

Muad`D
01-26-2005, 11:26 PM
<DIV>Yah, there are plenty of places where two healer groups are ideal for steady grinding, but I let everyone know early on that unless the other healer is feeling charitable, they are going to die if they pull aggro because I will not heal their [FaarNerfed!].</DIV>

Spag
01-27-2005, 01:45 AM
<DIV>Its not always the other persons fault for pulling aggro, just as its not always the tanks fault for losing aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for 2 healer groups, I simply am not up to that level where 2 are required, and did not realize this was a necessity.  My mystic is my third character I have been working on leveling.  Working on getting one of each class up to 20 to get a good understanding to how they all work.</DIV>

Banditman
01-27-2005, 02:08 AM
<DIV>Aye, it's not.  For instance . . . </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the case of an unlucky pull where two different groups of mobs are pulled it's really unclear how aggro is determined.  The MT is definitely not generating as much aggro against the group he is ignoring.  He's generating some, but not much.  The likely scenario here is that a healer or a caster is going to draw aggro from that second group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've seen this exact scenario play out enough times with various mobs to be sick of it.  It can also apply to adds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is definitely not always the fault of the punching bag.</DIV>

Spag
01-27-2005, 02:40 AM
<DIV>Good point, but also there are times when a tank gets a little lax in his taunting or attacking, and just leaves auto attack or such.  Any DPS class will rack up enough aggro to pass the tank on the aggro list, and hence gain aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

SovietStu
01-27-2005, 06:51 PM
<DIV>Aye, really sympathise there, theres nothing more annoying than when groups dont stick to the MT principle, once you have to start healing more than one person (or worst of all, yourself) your gonna get drained fast, and people are going to die...and then whine like its your fault :smileyhappy:</DIV> <DIV>I had a nasty experience in StormHold once where a similar thing happened and i lost a shard in the lower levels and gained a load of xp debt, was fun...just like root canal is fun :smileytongue:</DIV>

Spag
01-27-2005, 08:36 PM
<DIV>Who here has not had a nasty experience in Stormdebt, er uh  . . . . Stormhold?</DIV>

Itachi53
01-30-2005, 01:45 PM
<DIV>As for 2 healer groups, I simply am not up to that level where 2 are required, and did not realize this was a necessity. My mystic is my third character I have been working on leveling. Working on getting one of each class up to 20 to get a good understanding to how they all work.</DIV><hr></blockquote>I'm a 37 level mystic and am currently XPing in Rivervale. Ever since stormhold every pickup group I've gotten has instisted that you must have 2 healers to group in (insert TS, nek, Zek, EL, RE, RV, nektropos,etc zone here). My small guild group has done just fine with just little old me as the solo healer with my 'broken wards'. We took out Lord Everling with 4 people at 29. Just yesterday at average level of 36.5, the 4 of us took out the named 42++ groupx2 encounter just outside the Deathfist Citadel entrance. Without tooting my own horn too much, I just want to illusrate that you dont need 2 healers to do the content in the game, a group of <b>competent</b> players with some creativity will do just fine with one.<p>Message Edited by Itachi53 on <span class=date_text>01-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:47 AM</span>

jbb2
01-31-2005, 10:18 AM
<DIV>Recognize I am rather new at this game but have been playing MMPOG's for over 2 years.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have a small group I play with consistatnly consisting of a 25 Monk, 24 Ranger, and me, a 22 Mystic.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We have the tank which my wards work great along side and a good DPS to balance it out.  I am fortunate that the Rnager likes his role.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What is the deal with those not understanding roles?  This is where this game differentiates itself.  There are roles.  If people stay to them, they work great.  If not, you will die.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>'Nuff said.</DIV>

Banditman
01-31-2005, 09:24 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Itachi53 wrote:<BR> <DIV>As for 2 healer groups, I simply am not up to that level where 2 are required, and did not realize this was a necessity. My mystic is my third character I have been working on leveling. Working on getting one of each class up to 20 to get a good understanding to how they all work.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>I'm a 37 level mystic and am currently XPing in Rivervale. Ever since stormhold every pickup group I've gotten has instisted that you must have 2 healers to group in (insert TS, nek, Zek, EL, RE, RV, nektropos,etc zone here). <BR><BR>My small guild group has done just fine with just little old me as the solo healer with my 'broken wards'. We took out Lord Everling with 4 people at 29. Just yesterday at average level of 36.5, the 4 of us took out the named 42++ groupx2 encounter just outside the Deathfist Citadel entrance. Without tooting my own horn too much, I just want to illusrate that you dont need 2 healers to do the content in the game, a group of <B>competent</B> players with some creativity will do just fine with one. <P>Message Edited by Itachi53 on <SPAN class=date_text>01-30-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:47 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> <BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Wow.  Even I can't manage to insult every Mystic in the game with one post.  Good work!</P>

Karla
01-31-2005, 10:34 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Itachi53 wrote:<BR> <DIV>As for 2 healer groups, I simply am not up to that level where 2 are required, and did not realize this was a necessity. My mystic is my third character I have been working on leveling. Working on getting one of each class up to 20 to get a good understanding to how they all work.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>I'm a 37 level mystic and am currently XPing in Rivervale. Ever since stormhold every pickup group I've gotten has instisted that you must have 2 healers to group in (insert TS, nek, Zek, EL, RE, RV, nektropos,etc zone here). <BR><BR>My small guild group has done just fine with just little old me as the solo healer with my 'broken wards'. We took out Lord Everling with 4 people at 29. Just yesterday at average level of 36.5, the 4 of us took out the named 42++ groupx2 encounter just outside the Deathfist Citadel entrance. Without tooting my own horn too much, I just want to illusrate that you dont need 2 healers to do the content in the game, a group of <B>competent</B> players with some creativity will do just fine with one. <P>Message Edited by Itachi53 on <SPAN class=date_text>01-30-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:47 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> <BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I would like to say that a small guild group of even incompetent players will usually beat a pick-up group.  A group of people who always group together know each other, will beat out the pick-up group 99.9% of the time.  EQ2 imo is based on this concept of guilds, as the solo player/casual player/non guilded player.  Is totally cast out into the cold.</P> <P>Yes, yes I know they increased the xp, but they did not change that most "solo" mobs are somehow surrounded by a huge ring of group mobs.  Any person can cleary tell that the solo/casual/non-guild, was thrown on the game with no thought at all.</P>

ChristopherK
01-31-2005, 11:39 PM
<DIV>aye.. rules I live by...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pickup group: 2 healers 1 evac 1 tank</DIV> <DIV>Pickup group: 1 healer 1 chanter 1 evac 1 tank</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guild or Regular group: 1 healer 1 tank  </DIV>

Xalibur
02-01-2005, 10:16 AM
<DIV>i usually only heal the MT except on adds, if someone cant control aggro they will suffer- oh wait, [FaarNerfed!] shared debt..but sometimes i just let them die, im evil, im iksar  :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On the other hand, its the fastest way to learn. Either to avoid me or play properly. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That usually works fine, except for the those "i dont taunt, i let my damage taunt" tanks..wish we would have that send home spell cleric gets <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> "Back to basic training"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Vates_Sac
02-01-2005, 11:45 AM
<DIV>This seems to happen alot.  But as a healer you should just reply, Let the MT keep aggro or Im out.  Simple and direct.  That way you can move on to greener pastures.</DIV>

Banditman
02-01-2005, 07:37 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Karlace wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, yes I know they increased the xp, but they did not change that most "solo" mobs are somehow surrounded by a huge ring of group mobs.  Any person can cleary tell that the solo/casual/non-guild, was thrown on the game with no thought at all.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>This gets better in places like EL & Zek where you can easily find "solo" con mobs in separate groups from the "group" con mobs.</DIV>