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Alluin
01-20-2005, 04:53 AM
Hi all, I'm a new dark elf shaman (but not a new player, got a lvl 28 pally which I'd like to think I'm pretty experienced at), and wondering which way to go, Mystic or Defiler.Now before you dismiss it as an age old Mystic vs Defiler post or that I'm cracking on your spells hear me out, I just want to learn more about the Mystic.I'm currently favouring a Defiler, because of the impression I get of the play style. It seems to me they will be a bit better at soloing by having more damage spells, and also in groups I'd like to do more than sit and heal, so I like the thought of being able to do damage and debuff.However I hate freeport, I just can't get into the feel of it, and I'm currently friends with a lot of people in a Qeynos based guild. I've been trying to compare the Mystic spells with the Defiler spells to get a feel for the class, and I wondered what defines them. It's obvious with the Defiler since they have lots of damage spells (and some cool spells which like make a mob ward the target, or distill soul), and seem to be very based around dot damage. However trying to compare spells I was thinking a Mystic would get similar spells but maybe more of a debuffing nature, or a buffing nature, or something equally powerful but different. All I can see is (along with a few things both classes get like hate reducer, stat debuff, wards), are spells like granting enduring breath, and a few extra heals.Please tell me 'how' exactly the Mystics are powerful (or equally powerful) as their counterparts. How they get the job done, and what nice little tricks they have built in (could tell you a bunch of interesting things about the paladin, sure you guys can do the same).Thanks for your time, appreciate any constructive input

Banditman
01-21-2005, 01:21 AM
<DIV>Mystic is a mind set more than a spell set.  To me, and I believe many, if not most Mystics, I think you'll see that they chose it pretty much without taking the spell set into consideration.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Past that point . . .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you are playing a spell set, play a Defiler.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you are playing a city, play a Mystic.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One potential consideration if you are looking hard at cities due to friends is that should your friends choose to join or form a guild in Qeynos, if you are from Freeport your ability to contribute to that guild would be greatly restricted.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Another consideration, don't play a Defiler to be a damage dealer as you are likely to be disappointed.  No Priest deals damage on par with even a Guardian, let alone a true DPS class.  Your damage spells, as a Priest, are going to be mostly for solo use, and certainly will not be noticeable in a full party.</DIV>

Mady
01-21-2005, 02:15 AM
I have a somewhat different view. I think our spell set holds up fine- the only clear advantage defilers have is that purple mist stuff, although I do like hawk form a lot. Freeportians can do writs and contribute to a Qeynos guild like anyone else- our evils do just fine.As for damage, you won't mistake us for a DPS class, but to say our contributions won't be noticed overstates things a lot. We don't have an appreciable burst DPS ability, true, but once you get two DoTs up to Adept 1+, you're adding 120 a tick or better at my level against ^^ mobs even before Maul, melee, or Blessed Weapon procs figure into it, and with considerably less aggro than "big bang" spells seem to accumulate. Don't forget we also gain the ability to debuff resistance to elemental and poison damage, which means the DPS types will be that much more effective in our presence without contributing to any haste cap.All that while also ably healing, curing, buffing the group and reducing mob damage output to a trickle when needed with our Haze line. You could do worse.EDIT: I just read http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=18&message.id=1748 by Banditman. Good numbers, but something has to be missing, because the numbers don't adequately explain my reality in game. Simply- when a group XP mob is Keening Hazed, the tank stays level in HPs or drops at a minimal rate. When Keening Haze expires, the tank's health bar starts rainbowing. *whack* Yellow! *smack* Orange! *thwack* Red! *crack* Purple! *schwack* Black! More testing is needed.<p>Message Edited by Madyaz on <span class=date_text>01-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:42 PM</span>

Banditman
01-21-2005, 09:56 PM
<DIV>Let me put that 120 per tick in perspective for you real fast . . . .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That 120 per tick is 20 DPS.  Our guilds L33 Guardian parses out at 60 DPS, and is considered poor to marginal DPS compared to the real damage dealers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yea, it makes me feel good to see my damage numbers scroll by too . . . but don't kid yourself into thinking you are doing any significant damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'll be happy to parse your tank's logs if you like.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Banditman on <span class=date_text>01-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:56 AM</span>

Alluin
01-21-2005, 11:40 PM
What sort of levels are we talking with a 20dps and a guardians 60dps?Had my dps parsed before and with a club/shield it was between 21-28dps (peaks and troughs rarely around 16dps up to 32dps) at lvl 28. I noticed the swashbuckler in our group was outdamaging me only by about 1-2dps (if mine was 25 his would be about 26-27).Although I wasn't grouped with a mystic so I didn't get to see how they did, we had a cleric and he was peaking at around 0dps hehe. Good thing too, he was keeping me alive <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Banditman
01-22-2005, 01:39 AM
<DIV>I can do 20 DPS at L32, our Guardian can do 60 DPS at L33.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Actually, I can do more than 20 DPS, I can prolly push it up to around 30 - 35 by chain casting Gray Wind.  Granted, I can't heal, debuff or anything else while I do that 33, but I can do it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Mady
01-22-2005, 08:53 AM
Banditman- I'll just point out that you're being pompous and condescending...no need to belabor that point or respond in kind, but it's not helpful to pretend you're the only one who can calculate DPS or operate a parser. I'm not ignorant because I disagree with you, I just have a different perspective.Repeating and clarifying my point: I didn't claim our damage was on par with anyone else, I just think you're wrong to dismiss it. If 60 DPS is a firm number for guardians, that's a good thing, because 20 DPS is low for us...doesn't include melee, maul, or procs. If our damage approaches, say, 30 DPS, that means we can provide half the damage of another fighter in the group while holding down all the other things we do that a fighter could not.Another factor I forgot to mention- at level 31, my buffs add 43 strength to the group, shifting everyone's melee damage table higher while we're also affecting damage on the receiving end with debuffs. There's implied DPS there but it's difficult to quantify without more testing.

Banditman
01-24-2005, 07:48 PM
<DIV>Here's a "non-numbers" way to compare your DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Grab a Guardian and go to Zek.  Each of you pull a solo con Tallon Grunt at the same time.  See who drops theirs first.  Believe me, the Grunt isn't gonna drop the Guard, so you'll have no need to heal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Go one better, grab a Ranger and do the same thing.  Or a Wizard.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>30 DPS at that level is not a "significant" amount of damage.  When you compare that 30 DPS to the overall DPS of your group, you will usually find that it is not really that significant.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Figure a standard group of 6, Tank, Healer, DPS, DPS, DPS, Utility.  If the tank is doing 60, figure the 3 DPS class at 100 each and the Utility class at 50 DPS  . . .  so you've got 410 DPS, and you add 30 with whatever it is you do as a Priest.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Less than 10 percent, to me, is just not significant.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sure, I agree, we bring a lot more than just the DPS we can personally account for, but that happens regardless of whether we sit there and do nothing but heal or stand there with melee and DoT's flying.  Our buffs are certainly desireable and they definitely increase the melee based DPS of the group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The fact still remains that in most groups, our DPS is not significant.  If it is, then in all likelihood, you are in a group with low DPS.  There's nothing wrong with that, but you still have to accept the reality of the situation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've killed Everling with a low DPS group, where the amount of damage I could personally add was significant.  That is the exception to the rule.  We went in knowing that we'd have to be careful and that fights were going to take longer than normal.  These things happen.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The personal damage output of a Priest is not going to be significant in most cases.  It's not a problem for me, as it shouldn't be for anyone else.  It's just a fact that folks should be aware of before they get to L30+ and wonder why they aren't being asked to add damage on a regular basis.</DIV>

Jays
01-24-2005, 09:33 PM
<DIV>DPS D**k waving always baffles me!! Sure Mystics can be a little bit offensive with Melee and DoT's but hell what do you expect from a healer class? We slow and debuff, we heal quite well, if you factor in the reduction to the Mobs dps caused by slow and debuff, what more do you want!! If playing with the numbers is your bag then my best wishes to you hope you find the answer you are looking for <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ummari</DIV> <DIV>Lvl 29 Mystic</DIV>

Banditman
01-24-2005, 10:24 PM
<DIV>Reduction of mob DPS is a completely different subject, one that I've done extensive testing on.  You can read all about it on the Shaman forums.</DIV>

Thatdumbg
01-25-2005, 08:42 PM
<DIV>As a 34 Mystic I was pushing out about 40-50 tonight (using combatstats). My peak was abit over 60. This was with a 5 man group against anything from blues to yellows in Nektropos, in single encounters of one to five mobs. On singles, casting keening haze, delusion, and cry of the ancients on the daughters and named, minus ancients on the non. Then throwing Miasma (Adept 1) and Cold Fire (Adept 3) and pretty much chain nuking between grey wind and touch of they grey (both adept 1), keeping the dots on if they would have time to be worth it on the recast . I threw usually one or two heals every fight, and occasionally a ward or a status cure. On the groups, I was casting cry of the ancients then anger of the ancients, and chain nuking/healing with maybe the occasional cold fire on an untouched mob when the tank had secured aggro. my group was a 33 monk, 34 mystic (myself), 35 templar, 32 chanter, and 37 wizard. Hardly ideal, but I've noticed our DPS tends to shoot up abit on longer fights, especially againts single mobs where we can use our DoT's to maximum effectiveness. Most of the time my damage was on par with the monk, as he was in "tank-mode" if you will, so his DPS was cut.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We all ended most fights at about even mana, but the templar had a tendency to hold back mana (I guess he was tired, he is usually pretty offense-oriented)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not trying to call anyone wrong or say that this would be true in all situations, but these were my observations.</DIV>

Banditman
01-25-2005, 11:37 PM
<DIV>I'd love to see a 60 DPS log.</DIV>

Spag
01-26-2005, 12:03 AM
<DIV> <DIV>Anyway , back on topic here. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <DIV>Alluin,</DIV> <DIV>      I too was in the exact same boat you were in.  Dark elf shaman, disliked Freeport, guild and many friends in Qeynos. I debated which would be better, and decided I would be happier playing with friends and such, in a more comfortable town.  The difference in the spells is not all that great, if any at all.  I went ahead with the betrayal quest at lvl 17, it was easy.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In either case, I am very happy I did so, I now have all my characters sharing a room which saves some $$, as well as they can all use the same shared back account slots.  Much happier in Qeynos, and really enjoying being a Mystic.  I like having both Hawk and Bear form, and I am really looking forward to the future of my character.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I guess it comes down to what you are going to be happier with:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Being a subclass you are leaning towards, in a city you dislike and across the pond from your friends and guildies</DIV> <DIV>-or-</DIV> <DIV>Being a subclass you are unsure about, in a city you like, with friends and guildies nearby.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>