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Jerh
01-18-2005, 02:17 AM
<DIV>I am level 30 Mystic, and last night a group of 4 of use hunted where the fallen giants spawn in TS.</DIV> <DIV>It was a level 30 berserker, 27 ranger, 27 guardian, and myself. (not a perfect group, but they were my friends, so perfect to me). All of us had T3 drink and food. All the mobs in this area were green^^ and blue^^. There were a lot of them too.</DIV> <DIV>We were killing them 2-3 at a time, now if the question this night was “were your wards under powered?” I would have to say “no clue, I never cast one.” I never cast a heal either. All I did was debuff and the 30 berserker never took any damage.</DIV> <DIV>We fought there for 2 hours and in all that time I think I healed 3 times, and that was just when my debuffs were resisted.</DIV> <DIV>Now on higher levels mobs I need to ward/heal. But ward/healing is just a part of what I do, and sorry if this next line start’s a flame war, but….</DIV> <DIV><BR>If you think a Mystic is underpowered, you don’t know how to play one.</DIV> <DIV><BR>We are not the best pure healers, but in my opinion, we are the best “keep your party alive” class out there.<BR></DIV>

Peri
01-18-2005, 02:27 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jerhaa wrote:<BR> <DIV>I am level 30 Mystic, and last night a group of 4 of use hunted where the fallen giants spawn in TS.</DIV> <DIV>It was a level 30 berserker, 27 ranger, 27 guardian, and myself. (not a perfect group, but they were my friends, so perfect to me). All of us had T3 drink and food. All the mobs in this area were green^^ and blue^^. There were a lot of them too.</DIV> <DIV>We were killing them 2-3 at a time, now if the question this night was “were your wards under powered?” I would have to say “no clue, I never cast one.” I never cast a heal either. All I did was debuff and the 30 berserker never took any damage.</DIV> <DIV>We fought there for 2 hours and in all that time I think I healed 3 times, and that was just when my debuffs were resisted.</DIV> <DIV>Now on higher levels mobs I need to ward/heal. But ward/healing is just a part of what I do, and sorry if this next line start’s a flame war, but….</DIV> <DIV><BR>If you think a Mystic is underpowered, you don’t know how to play one.</DIV> <DIV><BR>We are not the best pure healers, but in my opinion, we are the best “keep your party alive” class out there.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>because clearly, your night of fun is the end-all-be-all example proving that there aren't problems.  Everyone else who has logged problems for months must be crazy.</P> <P>Good try, but why waste forum space with this?<BR></P>

re
01-18-2005, 02:28 AM
<DIV>Mystics are just as capable primary/only healers as any other priest class, I've never had a feeling of being underpowered in a group.  To do you job you do have to take the whole package into account, which includes your debuffs (I assert that they are your best healing spells), they work hand in hand with how wards work and its meaningless to just compare single elements of priest classes to eachother.</DIV>

Peri
01-18-2005, 02:35 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rego wrote:<BR> <DIV>Mystics are just as capable primary/only healers as any other priest class, I've never had a feeling of being underpowered in a group.  To do you job you do have to take the whole package into account, which includes your debuffs (I assert that they are your best healing spells), they work hand in hand with how wards work and its meaningless to just compare single elements of priest classes to eachother.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>no, they aren't.  Here's a reading list for you:</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=18&message.id=1220&page=1" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=18&message.id=1220&page=1</A></P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=19&message.id=643&page=1" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=19&message.id=643&page=1</A></P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=18&message.id=1748" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=18&message.id=1748</A></P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=18&message.id=1444&page=1" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=18&message.id=1444&page=1</A></P> <P> </P> <P>read these.</P>

Jerh
01-18-2005, 02:54 AM
<P>Remember guys, we got fixed in the last big patch.</P> <P>Are those links from before that?</P> <P>Before that patch our debuffs were broke (some of them anyway), now they work.</P> <P>So yes, I discredit all the posts about people who explain how a Mystic that does not exist anymore (pre patch) keeps a party alive. As soon as we are changed again, it will be time to discredit this one.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

bou
01-18-2005, 03:49 AM
What level are those giants, 28 or something? Try going at it when the mob is above the level of the tank, and above your level as well. Or why not a mob that casts spells and dots. You stated yourself that the tank almost never got hit and your debuffs landed almost every time. So whats the point you were trying to make? That mystic works very well in groups were there are no danger of harm? That mystics can debuff mobs 2-4 levels below themselvs? That when its really easy we sure can keep a group from dying just fine? Thanks, we already knew that.Did you even try doing a mob without the debuffs to see what happend? Did you log the encounters and checked afterwards to see if the debuffs were making the mobs miss or is all this just your general feeling from the night? Have you even read and understood the posts about debuffs and exactly know how they work and what they do? Have you read the posts about the issues with wards and not just seen the topics?The data and information in post after post in this forum are well put out and documented, it's not just "MYSTICS BLOWS, MAKE US TEH BESTEST IN TEH WORLD". There are some of those too im sure but who the hell cares about them anyway? When you see an all caps topic or an obvious rant topic you're not even gonna read it cause you know someone is frustrated or immature or both at the same time and they just need to vent somewhere.The posts im talking about are the By the numbers posts and posts of that quality. Read them (again if you already have) and try to build a case against whats being said there by documenting your encounters instead of just going with the feeling of everything is alright.I would also like to ask what you mean when you say "Before that patch our debuffs were broke (some of them anyway), now they work."? Well, it has only been one big patch and in that one the only thing about debuffs is this:- Spells that debuff the target's maximum health or power now work appropriately.If this is what you are referring to when discrediting all the posts that have been made so far then... I guess theres not much left to talk about and all I can say to you is happy hunting.Here are the patch notes for the big patch by the way:<a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=stat&message.id=45" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=stat&message.id=45</a>This became a really long post for some reason.. time to stop writing and start playing.<p>Message Edited by bouek on <span class=date_text>01-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:50 PM</span>

kenji
01-18-2005, 05:43 AM
<DIV>thanks for OP think that Mystic is "on par" with other healers <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>however...most of the posts abt "underpowered" isnt Mystic, it's Ward spell...=)</DIV>

re
01-18-2005, 05:43 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Periak wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rego wrote:<BR> <DIV>Mystics are just as capable primary/only healers as any other priest class, I've never had a feeling of being underpowered in a group.  To do you job you do have to take the whole package into account, which includes your debuffs (I assert that they are your best healing spells), they work hand in hand with how wards work and its meaningless to just compare single elements of priest classes to eachother.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>no, they aren't.  Here's a reading list for you:</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=18&message.id=1220&page=1" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=18&message.id=1220&page=1</A></P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=19&message.id=643&page=1" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=19&message.id=643&page=1</A></P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=18&message.id=1748" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=18&message.id=1748</A></P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=18&message.id=1444&page=1" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=18&message.id=1444&page=1</A></P> <P> </P> <P>read these.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I've read those before, most are complaints about wards not taking into account mitigation and / or miss the whole point of preventative vs. reactive healing.</P> <P>Most complainers are stuck in some tunneled vision reality that the only tanks are guardian style tanks, and you don't build groups on evasion tanks.  Well in that situation, yes mystics are at a disadvantage because the mysitc style of healing is not tailored for that style of tanking.  But guess what, this is not EQ1, the game isn't cleric, warrior, enchanter and the rest fall asleep at a camp, this isn't the same game.  Evasion tanks are just as viable as full armor tank, and with a mystic as primary healer they can do things that no druid or cleric can help them do.  What do I have backing myself, well I live it.  I've played nearly my whole EQ2 life with a swashbuckler (not even a real tank) acting as our group's tank, and we excel.  And guess what, when our paladin is playing and we put him as main tank, I have no problem there either as primary/only healer.  I never double ward, I hardly ever have to heal, because I land my debuffs, make sure they stay on and my ward picks up the slack for the odd hit that does get landed.  When we fight 8+ higher leveled mobs and I can't land a single debuff, well we still do fine, yeah I'm practially out of power at the end but hey, 8+ level mob what do you expect, but that just proves that without even using debuffs I can keep even a scout alive with just my healing.</P>

BigDa
01-18-2005, 02:13 PM
<DIV>Going up against solo greens or blues when you are the highest level in the group is when a mystic is most effective, yes.  In <EM>that</EM> situation, our debuffs <EM>do</EM> make up for the shartfall of the wards and heals.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Try picking on group mobs, white or higher.  Your debuffs and slows start to fail and you can't effectively debuff/slow the whole group even when they do land.  Your tank dies unless you blow your power healing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, they seem to slowly be fixing the broken spells.  No, this does not make that anywhere near as effective as other healers whose spells work better and in more situations.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry - try again.  Most of the posts on this subject have nothing to do with the bugs being fixed.  Though those are a HUGE additional annoyance.</DIV>

BigDa
01-18-2005, 02:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rego wrote:<BR> <P>...When we fight 8+ higher leveled mobs and I can't land a single debuff, well we still do fine, yeah I'm practially out of power at the end but hey, 8+ level mob what do you expect, but that just proves that without even using debuffs I can keep even a scout alive with just my healing. <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Blah, blah, blah, yes, yes, yes, we CAN heal a group, but WE have to BLOW all our power and in my experience, clerics (and druids to a lesser extent) don't.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In a lot of situations, we are gimped - the other healers manage to have diverse skills, yet not be, because their spells are better designed/balanced.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just a little bit more balance is all us 'whiners' are asking for.  Personally, wards that actually block specials would be enough for me.</DIV>

Ibnalno
01-18-2005, 03:22 PM
<DIV>The only complaint I would have is that the Wards do not seem to scale well. In the beginning the difference between 0AC and the AC of the tank was not so great. Now I am warding tanks with ACs of 3K+. The mobs are scaled to punch through that AC, thus our wards take a brutal punishing against those mobs. Even the difference on the light armor tanks has increased and I do not feel that the amount of damage our wards take has scaled with the amount of increased damage to overcome the AC. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The person talking about the Swash as a tank is not proving a point. There WILL come a time when the Swash cannot act as a tank, he/she is simply not designed for the task. That Mystic is just starting to enter RE. You are only in the midling levels and your tanks are still mainly wearing the lvl 20 quest armor, or rather just starting to leave it behind. You are just beginning to get where the mobs are getting truely balanced to punch through the higher ACs. They will chew through a Swash. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the end I think there should be some armor mitigation to accomodate the increased punch of the mobs, even on light armor tanks. Damage avoidance is great, but why should we only truely be in our prime for less than 33% of the tanks? There are a whole heck of a lot more heavy armor wearing tanks out there than light armor. I say let it be 50% AC mitigation or so. At least then our wards would with the AC, even if they have some sort of balance issue with giving us full AC mitigation.  </DIV>

Halam
01-18-2005, 06:47 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jerhaa wrote:<BR> <DIV>I am level 30 Mystic, and last night a group of 4 of use hunted where the fallen giants spawn in TS.</DIV> <DIV>It was a level 30 berserker, 27 ranger, 27 guardian, and myself. (not a perfect group, but they were my friends, so perfect to me). All of us had T3 drink and food. All the mobs in this area were green^^ and blue^^. There were a lot of them too.</DIV> <DIV>We were killing them 2-3 at a time, now if the question this night was “were your wards under powered?” I would have to say “no clue, I never cast one.” I never cast a heal either. All I did was debuff and the 30 berserker never took any damage.</DIV> <DIV>We fought there for 2 hours and in all that time I think I healed 3 times, and that was just when my debuffs were resisted.</DIV> <DIV>Now on higher levels mobs I need to ward/heal. But ward/healing is just a part of what I do, and sorry if this next line start’s a flame war, but….</DIV> <DIV><BR>If you think a Mystic is underpowered, you don’t know how to play one.</DIV> <DIV><BR>We are not the best pure healers, but in my opinion, we are the best “keep your party alive” class out there.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>i read 2-3 posts replying to this and stopped... not gonna read anymore.</P> <P>Frankly i agree with you completly.. If you debuff you shouldnt hae to heal much<BR></P>

Banditman
01-18-2005, 07:56 PM
<DIV>Please get back to me when you've been swarmed by Golems in RE or a bunch of Orcs in Zek.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let me know how you manage to debuff 4 mobs while healing your tank.  Log for us how long your Wards last in these situations.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As mitigation scales up and our Wards become more distanced from the actual damage a tank might take, the more underpowered they, and by association Mystics, become.</DIV>

Ender
01-18-2005, 09:59 PM
I think in those situations, all healers would have a difficult time.

BigDa
01-18-2005, 10:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EnderMX wrote:<BR>I think in those situations, all healers would have a difficult time.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>What we assert, though, it that, in those kind of circumstances, we have a much more difficult time that clerics or druids.</DIV>

re
01-18-2005, 10:30 PM
<DIV>I find it funny how many times people have described situations where my swashbuckler would get crushed yet we've already encountered and exceled in those situations.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mystics are not going to be equal with clerics or druids when using mitigation tanks.  That's not how the game is designed, roll up a cleric or a druid if you want to be good in those situations.  Stop spitting in the wind, that square peg is not fitting into that round hole.  Mystics excel at using evasion tanks, while still being able to do a fine job of being the only healer for a mitigation tank.  </DIV>

icetower
01-18-2005, 11:57 PM
Follow my train of logic here.If you were fighting 2-3 at a time then you can't possibly have debuffed all 3 at once.If you can't debuff all 3 at once then at least 2 mobs are hitting the tank for anywhere up to 18 seconds at full power. If you never/hardly had to heal or ward even in the first part of the fight then I'm sorry to tell you but it is the tank, not you who has the uber skills/armor.The way i see it, if 2 mobs aren't hitting enough at full power for heals to be needed then your scenario is totally irrelevant when comparing the power of priests.I simply fail to see how this provides evidence one way or the other, nor do I see how any healer other than a total [Removed for Content] could have failed in this group.

disru
01-19-2005, 12:36 AM
<blockquote><hr>Jerhaa wrote:<DIV>and sorry if this next line start’s a flame war, but….</DIV><DIV>If you think a Mystic is underpowered, you don’t know how to play one.</DIV><DIV></DIV><hr></blockquote>What the hell is the matter with you? I think the only reason someone would say something like this <b>is</b> to start a flame war. I am all for sharing your opinion with everyone, and hey, I'm not going to critcize you for it. But that quoted line is just a direct attempt to [Removed for Content] people off. According to the polls I've taken on the <A HREF="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=19&message.id=643" target=_blank>Are Wards underpowered?</A> thread, <b>77%</b> of the posters feel that wards are underpowered in some way or another. I'm sure they don't appreciate being told that they don't know how to play their character.<p>Message Edited by disrupt on <span class=date_text>01-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:42 PM</span>

Spag
01-19-2005, 01:08 AM
<DIV>Rego,</DIV> <DIV>   So you are saying Mystics work well with only one type of tank (avoidance tanks), where as the other healer classes work well with all 3.  Excuse me but, if he does not get hit often due to better avoidance, yeah its easier for us to heal, as it would be for any healer class.</DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>I don't think you proved the point you were intending to prove, but thank you.</DIV>

Nylaan2
01-19-2005, 01:28 AM
<DIV>Maybe you don't see the point, but I play with a mitigation tank (in full rare armor) and I only use wards if i need to protect him from absolute death (orange or red bar) and Healing Ritual is still on a timer.  I've played with him since level 1 and I am level 30.  Wards are near worthless on him because he absorbs so much damage.  I use them on me because I don't mitigate much.  But I don't want to get hit <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

Banditman
01-19-2005, 02:59 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rego wrote:<BR> <DIV>Mystics are not going to be equal with clerics or druids when using mitigation tanks.  That's not how the game is designed, roll up a cleric or a druid if you want to be good in those situations.  Stop spitting in the wind, that square peg is not fitting into that round hole.  Mystics excel at using evasion tanks, while still being able to do a fine job of being the only healer for a mitigation tank.  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>This is NOT what was promised in the Archtype balance.</P> <P>I don't even need to go into the surviveability of avoidance tanks vs mitigation tanks to refute that point.  We were promised that all Priests would be equally efficient and capable of healing any given situation.  This is not what is currently being provided.  Thus the state of unrest you observe on the boards here.<BR></P>

Xran
01-19-2005, 03:27 AM
Now Clerics have more problem healing non-mitigation tanks. Shall Clerics ask for a boost in their reactive heals too?Same as Druids since they don't heal as well as Wards. Shall HoT line be boosted too to heal all tanks including monks too?

Mystiq
01-19-2005, 04:28 AM
<FONT size=4></FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=3> <HR> Xrande wrote:<BR>Now Clerics have more problem healing non-mitigation tanks. Shall Clerics ask for a boost in their reactive heals too?<BR>Same as Druids since they don't heal as well as Wards. Shall HoT line be boosted too to heal all tanks including monks too?<BR> <HR> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT></DIV> <P><FONT size=3>Last I checked, the best Templar and Warden in my guild (I am the best Mystic) owned me on healing, and by "healing" I mean reactives, HoTs, wards and direct heals alike and their effectiveness.  I haven't tallked to any of the afore mentioned classes who said they have any trouble healing a tank by themselves. IMO and the opinion of several other good, high level players in my guild and out, Wardens don't need any of their heals boosted. In fact, it'd be dandy if Mystics got a boost up to be on par with what a Warden can do. </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>This isn't ward related, but take a look at </FONT><A href="http://home.ripway.com/2004-12/223120/EQ%20II/healmuch.jpg" target=_blank><FONT size=3>this conversation</FONT></A><FONT size=3> (the parts missing are raid chat) I had with our top Warden about our best heals. We get them at the same level, 46. The Warden's is called Verdant Rapture, and the Mystic heal is Enlightened Healing. Both spells cost 238 power at adept 3......seems like these two spells are almost identical huh? Or so they <EM>should be.</EM> As you can see from the chat log, my heal tops out at 955 hp, with no extra benefit beyond a quick cast. The warden's <EM>same level, same power</EM> heal heals for 1,293 hp direct, with an additional 896 heal over time. That stinks if you ask me, and I have no doubt that the Templar's level 46 heal is just as powerful. </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>To those of you who think our wards are on par with reactives and HoT's, are you also going to tell me that the heals EVERY HEALER GETS AT THE SAME LEVEL are balanced after reviewing what I've showed here? Clearly, they are not, and it's all nails in the coffin of balance.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>So, to bring it back around to the original topic, let me ask something. Which phrase would you prefer.....Mystics are underpowered, or Templars/Wardens are overpowered? It's one or the other or both I'm afraid, but I didn't come here to get anyone nerfed. I want us all to feel like we are powerful, and I want what was promised. I want others to be aware of the disparities between the healing classes, and that these disparities aren't just in our "special" lines of healing. And they are not imaginary.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>Regards,</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P>

disru
01-19-2005, 05:01 AM
<blockquote><hr>Eloora wrote:<P><FONT size=3>This isn't ward related, but take a look at <A href="http://home.ripway.com/2004-12/223120/EQ%20II/healmuch.jpg" target=_blank>this conversation</A></FONT><P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P><hr></blockquote>...Jeebus......................I'm kinda outraged...<p>Message Edited by disrupt on <span class=date_text>01-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:05 PM</span>

re
01-19-2005, 07:10 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Spagma wrote:<BR> <DIV>Rego,</DIV> <DIV>   So you are saying Mystics work well with only one type of tank (avoidance tanks), where as the other healer classes work well with all 3.  Excuse me but, if he does not get hit often due to better avoidance, yeah its easier for us to heal, as it would be for any healer class.</DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV>I don't think you proved the point you were intending to prove, but thank you.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I'm not sure where you are getting this.  I've not stated this unless I was posting in a drunken stupor.</P> <P>Mystics work great with avoidance tanks, mystics can be the only healer with all the kinds of tanks.  Just as the other healer classes are less efficient at healing avoidance tanks, mystics are less efficient at healing mitigation tanks.  And a large component of an avoidance tank being able to avoid are the mystic's debuffs and the wards.  Wards are the only alternate heal capable of saving death, and they are the only alternate heal that have their full potency availible at any time during their duration.  Reactives can't keep up with the damage an evasion tank takes, and a regen will probably only get a few ticks in after the avoidance tank take their big hit.  If they are expiriing without doing their job then they are not efficient at all.</P>

re
01-19-2005, 07:12 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rego wrote:<BR> <DIV>Mystics are not going to be equal with clerics or druids when using mitigation tanks.  That's not how the game is designed, roll up a cleric or a druid if you want to be good in those situations.  Stop spitting in the wind, that square peg is not fitting into that round hole.  Mystics excel at using evasion tanks, while still being able to do a fine job of being the only healer for a mitigation tank.  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>This is NOT what was promised in the Archtype balance.</P> <P>I don't even need to go into the surviveability of avoidance tanks vs mitigation tanks to refute that point.  We were promised that all Priests would be equally efficient and capable of healing any given situation.  This is not what is currently being provided.  Thus the state of unrest you observe on the boards here.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I'd like to see that promise. please link me.</FONT></DIV>

re
01-19-2005, 07:18 AM
<DIV>eloora you can't compare hp / power across the board like that, its meaningless.  You have to take into account that wards are the only alternate heal that can save a life, and that they are the only alternate heal that has their full potency always availible.  Regen and reactive hp / power efficiency gets clobbered when they time out without getting all their ticks/reactives in which happens especially when used on avoidance tanks.</DIV>

Peri
01-19-2005, 08:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rego wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rego wrote: <DIV>Mystics are not going to be equal with clerics or druids when using mitigation tanks.  That's not how the game is designed, roll up a cleric or a druid if you want to be good in those situations.  Stop spitting in the wind, that square peg is not fitting into that round hole.  Mystics excel at using evasion tanks, while still being able to do a fine job of being the only healer for a mitigation tank. </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>This is NOT what was promised in the Archtype balance.</P> <P>I don't even need to go into the surviveability of avoidance tanks vs mitigation tanks to refute that point.  We were promised that all Priests would be equally efficient and capable of healing any given situation.  This is not what is currently being provided.  Thus the state of unrest you observe on the boards here. </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I'd like to see that promise. please link me.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Merry Christmas....  this is pulled from the FAQ which can be found <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=faq&message.id=1" target=_blank>here</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-------</DIV> <DIV> <P><B><FONT color=#ffff99 size=3>Won’t balancing become a real issue with that many classes?</FONT></B></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>Class balance is always a complicated issue, but the archetype system allows us to manage it much more effectively.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Each class and subclass is balanced at the archetype level.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Every archetype has a main role in a group situation, and each member of a given archetype will be able to fill that role equally well.<SPAN>  </SPAN>If you're a fighter, you can tank for a group; if you're a priest, you can heal for a group; and so on. This is the beauty of an archetype system.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>-------</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P>and about your comment regarding HoT's and reactives....  the situations you described relates perfectly to this point.  Perhaps something needs to be tweaked in how reactives fire and HoT's work to make them more viable healers for avoidance tanks.  The answer is <STRONG>not</STRONG> "well mystics do better with avoidance tanks, clerics do better with mitigation tanks, etc."  The answer <STRONG>should </STRONG>be "Through the full use of their abilities, all healers can adequately perform their role, in their own unique way,  with the variety of tanks available in EQ2." <P></P></DIV><p>Message Edited by Periak on <span class=date_text>01-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:00 PM</span>

BigDa
01-19-2005, 02:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> disrupt wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jerhaa wrote:<BR> <DIV>and sorry if this next line start’s a flame war, but….</DIV> <DIV><BR>If you think a Mystic is underpowered, you don’t know how to play one.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>What the hell is the matter with you? I think the only reason someone would say something like this <B>is</B> to start a flame war. I am all for sharing your opinion with everyone, and hey, I'm not going to critcize you for it. But that quoted line is just a direct attempt to [Removed for Content] people off. According to the polls I've taken on the <A target=_blank href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=19&message.id=643">Are Wards underpowered?</A> thread, <B>77%</B> of the posters feel that wards are underpowered in some way or another. I'm sure they don't appreciate being told that they don't know how to play their character.<BR><BR>Please fix your interrectum-cranium inversion. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>And for anyone else claiming those who have an issue with the power of mystics are bad mystics:  If <EM>you</EM> don't think there is a relative issue with mystic power and the other healers, then <EM>you</EM> are bad <EM>players</EM>, never mind mystics.  You're simply ignoring facts, as in <EM>ignorant</EM>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The healers are supposed to be equal.  Not the same, but<EM> equal</EM>.  If you think it's ok that we only work effectively with brawlers, then, er, you're an idiot <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I tried to think of a nice way of expressing that, but I couldn't, sorry!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, mystics can be good healers, but we have to fight the mechanics all the way and blow our power.  Take two equally skilled players and the cleric player will be a more effective healer than the mystic except in a small minority of situations.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You happy with that?</DIV>

BigDa
01-19-2005, 02:30 PM
<DIV>Silvantha, you keep saying the same thing over and over and don't seem to appreciate that noone agrees with you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok, you are happy that mystics work well with avoidance tanks.  Good for you.  Sounds like your guild is full of avoidance tanks.  Me, I rarely see one and I don't want to constantly be gnashing my teeth over not being very effective in the groups I end up in.</DIV>

Ibnalno
01-19-2005, 03:48 PM
<DIV>Sil, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My main problem with your response is that it puts us in our prime on less than 33% of the tanks out there. SKs, Pallys, Guards and Serkers all are heavy armor wearers, only the Monk and the Brawlers are light. That means we are at our best with only 33% of the classes while the other healers beat us on 66%. That does not even take into consideration that the heavy armor wearers are a whole heck of a lot more common than the light armor wearers too. Please do not bring up your Swash friend. Rogue classes are simply not tanks and if you have had a different experience then you are the exception to the rule that proves the rule exist. Most groups I join would not even consider heading out without some sort of tank and most of the time a heavy armor wearing tank. You may have been lucky in your experience, but please do not come on here and tell us we do not know what we are talking about and should shut up because we are not so lucky.</DIV>

Spag
01-19-2005, 09:51 PM
<DIV>Rego wrote:</DIV> <DIV> <P>I'm not sure where you are getting this.  I've not stated this unless I was posting in a drunken stupor.</P> <P>Mystics work great with avoidance tanks, mystics can be the only healer with all the kinds of tanks.  Just as the other healer classes are less efficient at healing avoidance tanks, mystics are less efficient at healing mitigation tanks.  And a large component of an avoidance tank being able to avoid are the mystic's debuffs and the wards.  Wards are the only alternate heal capable of saving death, and they are the only alternate heal that have their full potency availible at any time during their duration.  Reactives can't keep up with the damage an evasion tank takes, and a regen will probably only get a few ticks in after the avoidance tank take their big hit.  If they are expiriing without doing their job then they are not efficient at all.</P> <P>--------------------</P> <P>Lets talk expiration time, wards last 35 seconds.  How long do the other speical heals last?  I am pretty sure its longer than 35 seconds.  I seem to think that the ward would wear off first.  Anyone got any information on this?</P></DIV>

Aesi
01-19-2005, 10:15 PM
<DIV>I don't see how we are underpowered either.</DIV> <DIV>I'm usually the main healer, and rarely have a problem keeping my party alive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The most important factor in how well a Mystic can do his job... is how well the tank does his job.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If my tank can hold the agro, I have no problem keeping him alive.</DIV> <DIV>If the mobs are bouncing all over the place than I am forced to mana dump... which could lead to downtime or death.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The past two days I have spent hunting everything in RE...  even those Red Goblin Groups (Lvl 39's)</DIV> <DIV>I really do fail to see the problem.  I'm 33... and can keep my lvl 33-35 group alive against 39's.  </DIV> <DIV>What more do you want?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I usually have to chain ward until the creatures get off their specials...  then I can slow down and regen mana... popping a ward or heal when needed.  If it's one ^^ creature, then use your best slow on it..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aesir ~ 33Mystic</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

re
01-19-2005, 10:35 PM
<DIV>I find it hilarious how any time anyone disagrees with the masses of shaman ward complainers they are told they are "idiots" or "ignorant" and no one agrees with them when in the very same thread there are others that also feel the same way <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-That FAQ never states that priests should be able to heal every tank equally well</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-This is not EQ1, stop thinking it is.  While Mystics may be most efficient with only 1/3 the fighter classes, they allow a whole other archtype to tank while still doing a great job at being healer for the other 2/3 of the fighter classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-I've always been able to meet my group's needs as the only healer and we rarely have any downtime at all.  That's with all kinds of fighters as tanks and all sorts of scouts.  I've proven my point time and time again with the only thing that matters, performance.  Ask anyone that's grouped with me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-I can see this really isn't going anywhere, I've done what I can, I'm going to go back to spending my time getting the job done as primary/only healer instead of spending my time here with people that are sitting on their hands complaining that they can't do their job.</DIV>

Banditman
01-19-2005, 10:38 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AesirX wrote:<BR> <DIV>The past two days I have spent hunting everything in RE...  even those Red Goblin Groups (Lvl 39's)</DIV> <DIV>I really do fail to see the problem.  I'm 33... and can keep my lvl 33-35 group alive against 39's.  </DIV> <DIV>What more do you want?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'll go with the obvious . . . logs.</P> <P><BR> </P>

Karla
01-19-2005, 11:10 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rego wrote:<BR> <DIV>Mystics are just as capable primary/only healers as any other priest class, I've never had a feeling of being underpowered in a group.  To do you job you do have to take the whole package into account, which includes your debuffs (I assert that they are your best healing spells), they work hand in hand with how wards work and its meaningless to just compare single elements of priest classes to eachother.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Very true debuffs help a ton, but other priests such as druids and clerics do not need to use debuffs or other spells to measure their healing effectiveness.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>With that said, for debuffs to be a true part of healing, which many shaman feel they are needed to be effective, the cost of debuff a.k.a the casting time, resist factors, mana usage, etc. must be added into our mana per heal ratio or our mana per prevent damage ratio.  The other option of course is to make all shaman debuffs 0 mana 0cast time unresisted.</FONT></DIV>

Karla
01-19-2005, 11:11 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jerhaa wrote:<BR> <P>Remember guys, we got fixed in the last big patch.</P> <P>Are those links from before that?</P> <P>Before that patch our debuffs were broke (some of them anyway), now they work.</P> <P>So yes, I discredit all the posts about people who explain how a Mystic that does not exist anymore (pre patch) keeps a party alive. As soon as we are changed again, it will be time to discredit this one.</P> <P> </P> <P> <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Please show me where in the big patch mystics were fixed.</DIV>

Karla
01-19-2005, 11:20 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rego wrote:<BR> <DIV>I find it funny how many times people have described situations where my swashbuckler would get crushed yet we've already encountered and exceled in those situations.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mystics are not going to be equal with clerics or druids when using mitigation tanks.  That's not how the game is designed, roll up a cleric or a druid if you want to be good in those situations.  Stop spitting in the wind, that square peg is not fitting into that round hole.  Mystics excel at using evasion tanks, while still being able to do a fine job of being the only healer for a mitigation tank.  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>So then the devs did not accomplish the task at hand which is all healer types can heal effective in all groups.  The devs stated that in this game all healer should be able to be mh. </P> <P>I'm gonna call BS on the tank Mitigation comment as most pick-up groups only deal with mit tanks.  They can heal sure but do so at such a disadvantage it slows down the group.  I think you need to remove yourself from me and my swash arugment that you alway use and try pick-up groups for a extended period to get a feel for the real game.</FONT></P> <P>It also my personal opinion that rogues as s and swash are way overpowered.</FONT></P>

Karla
01-19-2005, 11:24 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rego wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Spagma wrote:<BR> <DIV>Rego,</DIV> <DIV>   So you are saying Mystics work well with only one type of tank (avoidance tanks), where as the other healer classes work well with all 3.  Excuse me but, if he does not get hit often due to better avoidance, yeah its easier for us to heal, as it would be for any healer class.</DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV>I don't think you proved the point you were intending to prove, but thank you.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I'm not sure where you are getting this.  I've not stated this unless I was posting in a drunken stupor.</P> <P>Mystics work great with avoidance tanks, mystics can be the only healer with all the kinds of tanks.  Just as the other healer classes are less efficient at healing avoidance tanks, mystics are less efficient at healing mitigation tanks.  And a large component of an avoidance tank being able to avoid are the mystic's debuffs and the wards.  Wards are the only alternate heal capable of saving death, and they are the only alternate heal that have their full potency availible at any time during their duration.  Reactives can't keep up with the damage an evasion tank takes, and a regen will probably only get a few ticks in after the avoidance tank take their big hit.  If they are expiriing without doing their job then they are not efficient at all.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Actualyl HoT heal very well with both types of tanks. 

Karla
01-19-2005, 11:27 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rego wrote:<BR> <DIV>eloora you can't compare hp / power across the board like that, its meaningless.  You have to take into account that wards are the only alternate heal that can save a life, and that they are the only alternate heal that has their full potency always availible.  Regen and reactive hp / power efficiency gets clobbered when they time out without getting all their ticks/reactives in which happens especially when used on avoidance tanks.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Actually yes she can.  Wards do not absorb specials wheres as I know HoT do kinda in their own and way and i am 98% certain that RA's do.  Because RA's go off whenever a tank is hit, and since the special is hitting the tank, well you get the picture.  So a tank can die with a full ward on him.

Karla
01-19-2005, 11:31 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AesirX wrote:<BR> <DIV>I don't see how we are underpowered either.</DIV> <DIV>I'm usually the main healer, and rarely have a problem keeping my party alive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The most important factor in how well a Mystic can do his job... is how well the tank does his job.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If my tank can hold the agro, I have no problem keeping him alive.</DIV> <DIV>If the mobs are bouncing all over the place than I am forced to mana dump... which could lead to downtime or death.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The past two days I have spent hunting everything in RE...  even those Red Goblin Groups (Lvl 39's)</DIV> <DIV>I really do fail to see the problem.  I'm 33... and can keep my lvl 33-35 group alive against 39's.  </DIV> <DIV>What more do you want?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I usually have to chain ward until the creatures get off their specials...  then I can slow down and regen mana... popping a ward or heal when needed.  If it's one ^^ creature, then use your best slow on it..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aesir ~ 33Mystic</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> I want to be just as effective as a druid or cleric. that is what i want.

Karla
01-19-2005, 11:31 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AesirX wrote:<BR> <DIV>I don't see how we are underpowered either.</DIV> <DIV>I'm usually the main healer, and rarely have a problem keeping my party alive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The most important factor in how well a Mystic can do his job... is how well the tank does his job.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If my tank can hold the agro, I have no problem keeping him alive.</DIV> <DIV>If the mobs are bouncing all over the place than I am forced to mana dump... which could lead to downtime or death.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The past two days I have spent hunting everything in RE...  even those Red Goblin Groups (Lvl 39's)</DIV> <DIV>I really do fail to see the problem.  I'm 33... and can keep my lvl 33-35 group alive against 39's.  </DIV> <DIV>What more do you want?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I usually have to chain ward until the creatures get off their specials...  then I can slow down and regen mana... popping a ward or heal when needed.  If it's one ^^ creature, then use your best slow on it..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aesir ~ 33Mystic</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> I want to be just as effective as a druid or cleric. that is what i want.

Karla
01-19-2005, 11:33 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rego wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-That FAQ never states that priests should be able to heal every tank equally well</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-This is not EQ1, stop thinking it is.  While Mystics may be most efficient with only 1/3 the fighter classes, they allow a whole other archtype to tank while still doing a great job at being healer for the other 2/3 of the fighter classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>This is implied.  It has to be implied that when the FAQ says all healer will be able to preform the same job.  <BR>

Peri
01-20-2005, 02:39 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rego wrote:<BR> <DIV>I find it hilarious how any time anyone disagrees with the masses of shaman ward complainers they are told they are "idiots" or "ignorant" and no one agrees with them when in the very same thread there are others that also feel the same way <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-That FAQ never states that priests should be able to heal every tank equally well</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-This is not EQ1, stop thinking it is.  While Mystics may be most efficient with only 1/3 the fighter classes, they allow a whole other archtype to tank while still doing a great job at being healer for the other 2/3 of the fighter classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-I've always been able to meet my group's needs as the only healer and we rarely have any downtime at all.  That's with all kinds of fighters as tanks and all sorts of scouts.  I've proven my point time and time again with the only thing that matters, performance.  Ask anyone that's grouped with me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-I can see this really isn't going anywhere, I've done what I can, I'm going to go back to spending my time getting the job done as primary/only healer instead of spending my time here with people that are sitting on their hands complaining that they can't do their job.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>- the faq says every subclass can do the core job of their archetype equally.  It makes no mention of "if paired with class x, class y will perform well."</P> <P>- what's your point? no one who is arguing that shamans need help believe this is EQ 1 either.  </P> <P>- it's pretty simple here, so maybe we can help you understand it.  What you are saying is all conjecture that you want everyone to believe.  What others like Banditman are saying, they back up with <STRONG>numbers </STRONG>that other shamans have, in turn, validated with their own experiences.  This is a pretty strong indication that problems / bugs exist.  Generalizing that "I do fine, you should too" is a weak argument.  If you want to argue how shaman are equal healers, please start providing concrete examples.</P> <P>- lame attempt at getting in the last word... try again.<BR></P>

bou
01-20-2005, 03:07 AM
<blockquote><hr>AesirX wrote:<DIV>I really do fail to see the problem. I'm 33... and can keep my lvl 33-35 group alive against 39's. </DIV><DIV>What more do you want?</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I usually have to chain ward until the creatures get off their specials... then I can slow down and regen mana... popping a ward or heal when needed. If it's one ^^ creature, then use your best slow on it..</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Aesir ~ 33Mystic</DIV><DIV> </DIV><hr></blockquote>I just want to ask why you are chaining wards when the mobs do specials since the wards provide no protection against special attacks? Slow also dont affect special attacks which means our two main ways of diverting damage, wards and slow, are useless until the mobs have run out of power.

MIJ
01-20-2005, 03:35 AM
<DIV>You see now this is the problem. One guy comes in here and shoots his opinion. Last I check (correct me if I'm wrong) you are free to your oponion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyways sirs besides the point, there are different things that affect anyone. Your power for 1 will affect the tide of battle more than you think it is. then second equipment like armor weapons or bows and arrows can also lead the tide of battle. Theres tons of different types of armor and all of it has different stats than the next one. So if a swashbuckler level 50 (just throwing random numbers and classes out there) has 1500hp and the next swashbuckler comes along and has 1501 hp doesnt mean they are the same. the 1500 can have 2000ac and the 1501 could haver 1200ac it all makes a difference but it looks to me like theres about at least 6 or 7 shamans that say "hey we dont work as effectively" but it could just be you. Let me go into this more. IT might be the fact that there is alot of differnet ways a spell like ward can give the tide of battle to the pc or npc like so:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1500power shaman (i like that number = p) might do a worse job than a 1200 power shaman for MANY reasons.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1: Your level on the spell</DIV> <DIV>2: the power on the spell</DIV> <DIV>3: how you use your power</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Those are the most important. The reason for 3 is because you can ward and wait till ward goes down to recast but then your tank will get hit pretty hard so you will halfto heal and ward if you wish to keep your tank alive. and the level on the spell effects the spell in more ways than justy how powerful the spell is... Like say ward at app3 can cost 40 power but then ward at adept 1 can cost 30 power. Just watch how you use your spells and choose which way is more effective. like: slow and take wild guesses on when ward will fall. pretty much all i do. and i only use maybe a whole 20% power per fight.</DIV>

Jerh
01-20-2005, 03:35 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bouek wrote:<BR>Did you even try doing a mob without the debuffs to see what happend? Did you log the encounters and checked afterwards to see if the debuffs were making the mobs miss or is all this just your general feeling from the night? Have you even read and understood the posts about debuffs and exactly know how they work and what they do? Have you read the posts about the issues with wards and not just seen the topics?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>They were mostly blue^^, and we were taking in 3 at a time. If I had not debuffed them the tank would have died in 10-20 seconds. Now we had no real solid DPS (only one was a level 28 ranger), so the fights took a very long time. In this situasion, I do not think any other healing class could have kept the tank alive. Not only could I keep him alive, as long as kept all 3 mobs debuffed, he didn't loose one hp of damage.</P> <P>I have read all the posts here before, I just don't agree the Mystic is underpowered. Another person stated:</P> <P> "however...most of the posts abt "underpowered" isnt Mystic, it's Ward spell...=)" </P> <P>If the Mystic is not underpowered, the ward is not underpowered. If my job is to keep everyone alive, and I can do that as well or better then the next class, explain to me why I need a skill improved?</P> <P><BR> </P>

Jerh
01-20-2005, 03:39 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BigDave wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EnderMX wrote:<BR>I think in those situations, all healers would have a difficult time.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>What we assert, though, it that, in those kind of circumstances, we have a much more difficult time that clerics or druids.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Agreed, but against one OJ/Red group mob, we are better then they are. You can't expect any class to be the best at all things.</DIV>

Jerh
01-20-2005, 03:44 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> icetower wrote:<BR>Follow my train of logic here.<BR>If you were fighting 2-3 at a time then you can't possibly have debuffed all 3 at once.<BR>If you can't debuff all 3 at once then at least 2 mobs are hitting the tank for anywhere up to 18 seconds at full power. <BR>If you never/hardly had to heal or ward even in the first part of the fight then I'm sorry to tell you but it is the tank, not you who has the uber skills/armor.<BR>The way i see it, if 2 mobs aren't hitting enough at full power for heals to be needed then your scenario is totally irrelevant when comparing the power of priests.<BR>I simply fail to see how this provides evidence one way or the other, nor do I see how any healer other than a total [Removed for Content] could have failed in this group.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I was pulling with my debuff, and about the time it got to my tank it I would land the other one (keening haze). Then when my timers were up I would pull the next one and hit it with both, then do that for the 3rd. Once we had 3 on us the tank would go back to the first (we was going in rotation with me to gain the agro). at this point we now have 3 mobs on us with no damage taken.</DIV>

Jerh
01-20-2005, 04:03 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Karlace wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Please show me where in the big patch mystics were fixed.</BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Disillusion. Try it, you will like the new and improved version <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

bou
01-20-2005, 04:05 AM
<blockquote><hr>Jerhaa wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><P>They were mostly blue^^, and we were taking in 3 at a time. If I had not debuffed them the tank would have died in 10-20 seconds. Now we had no real solid DPS (only one was a level 28 ranger), so the fights took a very long time. In this situasion, I do not think any other healing class could have kept the tank alive. Not only could I keep him alive, as long as kept all 3 mobs debuffed, he didn't loose one hp of damage.</P><P>I have read all the posts here before, I just don't agree the Mystic is underpowered. </P><hr></blockquote>If a tank does not loose one point of HP with only wards and debuffs that means that the mobs are not hitting him, not that your ward takes all the damage. The ward has alot of holes in them and dots, ripostes and special attacks all go straight through wards. Since he did not lose any hp, none of the above stated attacks from three mobs constantly hitting him during a long fight hit him. This is extremely unlikely but it could happen once or twice, not for a whole night however. Either that or you are just remebering what you want to remember. That is why I asked for logs and some testing from you, to make sure what you post are how it really went down. Posting something like this with just your memory from the encounter is flame bait, no one can really argue with you because we wern't there so the post itself becomes useless and doesn't add to the debate but just brings forth more arguing.If you want to add something constructive to the debate, log the encounters next time, try some groups without debuffs, try some with only debuffs and heals, mix and match and try to get a broad picture of whats going on. Post it here with full logs so everyone can see and then no one can speak up against you because it is there in clear writing.What banditman and others have done is bring these logs and screens to their posts and then built a case around that. I would love to see the people saying everyting is fine post logs where wards are working as inteded against magic users or mobs that hits hard with special attacks. So far, none have done this. You just make posts like this saying you think its fine and you are of course entitled to do that but it really doesn't make a difference. Arguing without having facts to back it up is like swimming in mud, slow, pointless and very tiresome and you know someone is gonna start tossing that mud around and then all hell breaks loose.

Jerh
01-20-2005, 04:16 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> disrupt wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jerhaa wrote:<BR> <DIV>and sorry if this next line start’s a flame war, but….</DIV> <DIV><BR>If you think a Mystic is underpowered, you don’t know how to play one.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>What the hell is the matter with you? I think the only reason someone would say something like this <B>is</B> to start a flame war. I am all for sharing your opinion with everyone, and hey, I'm not going to critcize you for it. But that quoted line is just a direct attempt to [Removed for Content] people off. According to the polls I've taken on the <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=19&message.id=643" target=_blank>Are Wards underpowered?</A> thread, <B>77%</B> of the posters feel that wards are underpowered in some way or another. I'm sure they don't appreciate being told that they don't know how to play their character.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Me and 77% of the people here seem to disagree. I think it’s a lot less that 77%, as no one is going to come here and say “Well I played my char and grrrr, it worked as expected”. Most people only post to these thing when they feel slighted in some way. So I think that 77% is inflated.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know I can heal as well as any other class. I have been told on many occasions buy people I play with that they think I am a great healer. No matter how good of a player I am, if I was playing a gimped healing class, I would not be able to impress anyone, as my class would hold me back.</DIV> <DIV>So being we all have the same game, and I am not doing anything any other level 30 mystic can’t do, I feel it’s an education issue for the people that feel they are underpowered.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That or they have an unrealistic expectation of what a healer can do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Go read the other forums for the other classes; they all say they are underpowered. I think the cleric’s and druid’s that think that need to learn how to play there class too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I guess I could have done a much better job at being tactful, sorry for that.<BR></DIV>

Jerh
01-20-2005, 04:18 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bouek wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>If a tank does not loose one point of HP with only wards and debuffs that means that the mobs are not hitting him... <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I never warded him.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jerh
01-20-2005, 04:24 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bouek wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jerhaa wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>They were mostly blue^^, and we were taking in 3 at a time. If I had not debuffed them the tank would have died in 10-20 seconds. Now we had no real solid DPS (only one was a level 28 ranger), so the fights took a very long time. In this situasion, I do not think any other healing class could have kept the tank alive. Not only could I keep him alive, as long as kept all 3 mobs debuffed, he didn't loose one hp of damage.</P> <P>I have read all the posts here before, I just don't agree the Mystic is underpowered. </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>If a tank does not loose one point of HP with only wards and debuffs that means that the mobs are not hitting him, not that your ward takes all the damage. The ward has alot of holes in them and dots, ripostes and special attacks all go straight through wards. Since he did not lose any hp, none of the above stated attacks from three mobs constantly hitting him during a long fight hit him. This is extremely unlikely but it could happen once or twice, not for a whole night however. Either that or you are just remebering what you want to remember. <BR><BR>That is why I asked for logs and some testing from you, to make sure what you post are how it really went down. Posting something like this with just your memory from the encounter is flame bait, no one can really argue with you because we wern't there so the post itself becomes useless and doesn't add to the debate but just brings forth more arguing.<BR>If you want to add something constructive to the debate, log the encounters next time, try some groups without debuffs, try some with only debuffs and heals, mix and match and try to get a broad picture of whats going on. Post it here with full logs so everyone can see and then no one can speak up against you because it is there in clear writing.<BR><BR>What banditman and others have done is bring these logs and screens to their posts and then built a case around that. I would love to see the people saying everyting is fine post logs where wards are working as inteded against magic users or mobs that hits hard with special attacks. So far, none have done this. You just make posts like this saying you think its fine and you are of course entitled to do that but it really doesn't make a difference. Arguing without having facts to back it up is like swimming in mud, slow, pointless and very tiresome and you know someone is gonna start tossing that mud around and then all hell breaks loose.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I am not someone looking to crunch a bunch of numbers, but disillusion + keening haze for a level 30 Mystic against a lvl 28 group mob means a lvl 30 tank will never get hit. (ok, maybe once out of 30 attempts, but he has T4 food for that). If I had to guess to turns the mob into the equivalent of a 23, and there is some magic 6 level thing where a mob more then 6 levels below you can't hit you.<BR> <BR>Go try it bud.<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>

bou
01-20-2005, 04:25 AM
You cant really tell me that with only debuffs the tank never lost a single point of HP and you call this a tough fight which other healers could not have pulled off?

bou
01-20-2005, 04:28 AM
I am aware of how the haze works, its all very nicely posted in banditmans post. Haze works extremly well against lower level mobs and since they already are weaker then you these kinds of encounters does not make good encounters to draw conclusions from.

Jerh
01-20-2005, 04:43 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bouek wrote:<BR>You cant really tell me that with only debuffs the tank never lost a single point of HP and you call this a tough fight which other healers could not have pulled off?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I was only not a tuff encounter because of the debuffs. If I messed up (or the mob resisted me) the tank took some decent damage. So my guess would be if none of the mobs were debuffed, he would have been taking significant damage. No other healing class has our debuffs, so the only way for them to mitigate the damage is through healing. No class in this game could have kept that tank alive as long as it took to kill 3 of them with just heals.</DIV> <DIV>This is a situation where we are far more powerful then any other healing class, as due to some of our skills, we don’t even need to heal.</DIV> <DIV>I can come up with lots of situations where we are terrible compared to other healing classes, but you can’t expect to be the best at everything.</DIV> <DIV>If I could have any level 30 healing class knowing what I know now, I would still take a Mystic.<BR></DIV>

Jerh
01-20-2005, 04:49 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bouek wrote:<BR>I am aware of how the haze works, its all very nicely posted in banditmans post. Haze works extremly well against lower level mobs and since they already are weaker then you these kinds of encounters does not make good encounters to draw conclusions from.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Are you aware that Disillusion was fixed in the last patch?</P> <P>Also, the fastest way to level in this game is to mass kill blue or white group mobs. So being the most effective healer for a group mass killing blue’s is not a bad thing <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <BR></P>

bou
01-20-2005, 05:17 AM
Yes, im aware of both those things as well. Delusion however does not make your target miss, its haze that provides that which is why im leaving delusion out of the question.Its fine that you can be a very good healer when fighting mobs 2-4 level below you and the tank, that is howeever not the fights when we fall short, at least not thats how I have seen it.Hell, a friend is level 37 guardian and he solos mobs two levels below him without loosing much hp at all most of the time if he buffs himself. If I go in and debuffs his target of course he wont loose any hp at all but that doesnt make my wards and my healing power equal to the other classes because of it.We seem to have a differnt view on what is hard in this game, it might be easier to just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

disru
01-20-2005, 05:38 AM
<blockquote><hr>Jerhaa wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>disrupt wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Jerhaa wrote:<DIV>and sorry if this next line start’s a flame war, but….</DIV><DIV>If you think a Mystic is underpowered, you don’t know how to play one.</DIV><DIV></DIV><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>What the hell is the matter with you? I think the only reason someone would say something like this <B>is</B> to start a flame war. I am all for sharing your opinion with everyone, and hey, I'm not going to critcize you for it. But that quoted line is just a direct attempt to [Removed for Content] people off. According to the polls I've taken on the <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=19&message.id=643" target=_blank>Are Wards underpowered?</A> thread, <B>77%</B> of the posters feel that wards are underpowered in some way or another. I'm sure they don't appreciate being told that they don't know how to play their character.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV>Me and 77% of the people here seem to disagree. I think it’s a lot less that 77%, as no one is going to come here and say “Well I played my char and grrrr, it worked as expected”. Most people only post to these thing when they feel slighted in some way. So I think that 77% is inflated.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I know I can heal as well as any other class. I have been told on many occasions buy people I play with that they think I am a great healer. No matter how good of a player I am, if I was playing a gimped healing class, I would not be able to impress anyone, as my class would hold me back.</DIV><DIV>So being we all have the same game, and I am not doing anything any other level 30 mystic can’t do, I feel it’s an education issue for the people that feel they are underpowered.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>That or they have an unrealistic expectation of what a healer can do.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Go read the other forums for the other classes; they all say they are underpowered. I think the cleric’s and druid’s that think that need to learn how to play there class too.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I guess I could have done a much better job at being tactful, sorry for that.</DIV><hr></blockquote>My 77% comes from individual people posting, if someone posted more than once, I only counted them once.You, it seems, are counting the posts themselves.Besides, my point is that you started this thread as an antagonist. If you can't see a problem then everyone else must be a noob, right? You have your opinion about wards and I have mine; fine. When you come here and post that myself and the rest of the community doesn't know how to play our class if we feel that wards need some tuning, then your going to get people posting here who are already angry at you for insulting them. Which, of course, becomes a flame because you just come back and post trying to defend what you've said and tennis match goes on and on....This thread would have been civil from the start had you chosen your words more intelligently. That is of course, if you truely did not want to start a flame thread.FYI: 33.3% of "posters" on this thread agree with you.<p>Message Edited by disrupt on <span class=date_text>01-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:46 PM</span>

Jerh
01-20-2005, 06:37 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bouek wrote:<BR>Yes, im aware of both those things as well. Delusion however does not make your target miss, its haze that provides that which is why im leaving delusion out of the question.<BR><BR>We seem to have a differnt view on what is hard in this game, it might be easier to just agree to disagree and leave it at that.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Delusion is the key now after patch, go play with it and see what you think...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And I am with you, lets just agree to disagree.</DIV>

Jerh
01-20-2005, 06:44 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> disrupt wrote:<BR><BR>This thread would have been civil from the start had you chosen your words more intelligently. That is of course, if you truely did not want to start a flame thread.<BR><BR>FYI: 33.3% of "posters" on this thread agree with you. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>My Grandmother died yesterday and I was in a foul mood to start. I came to these boards to look at the provisioner form, and decided to see what my fellow Mystics were up to. When I saw our little neck of the boards is filled with a bunch of people whining about this class (the best healing class imo) I got disgusted a little faster then I normally would. </FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>So yea, a flame war got started… not sure I started it though.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Oh and it seems only you and I are talking about that line, so it might just be a smoke war.<BR></DIV></FONT>

Glorfindel
01-20-2005, 07:32 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Karlace wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rego wrote:<BR> <DIV>I find it funny how many times people have described situations where my swashbuckler would get crushed yet we've already encountered and exceled in those situations.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mystics are not going to be equal with clerics or druids when using mitigation tanks.  That's not how the game is designed, roll up a cleric or a druid if you want to be good in those situations.  Stop spitting in the wind, that square peg is not fitting into that round hole.  Mystics excel at using evasion tanks, while still being able to do a fine job of being the only healer for a mitigation tank.  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>So then the devs did not accomplish the task at hand which is all healer types can heal effective in all groups.  The devs stated that in this game all healer should be able to be mh. </P> <P>I'm gonna call BS on the tank Mitigation comment as most pick-up groups only deal with mit tanks.  They can heal sure but do so at such a disadvantage it slows down the group.  I think you need to remove yourself from me and my swash arugment that you alway use and try pick-up groups for a extended period to get a feel for the real game.</FONT></P> <P>It also my personal opinion that rogues as s and swash are way overpowered.</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Hah. Swashies are the weakest DPS of all the scout classes (except the bards, but their buffs add more to group DPS than we contribute). We aren't any better tanks than any of the other scout classes; the only difference is that we get a couple taunts. Bard songs do a better job taunting than our taunts do. Poisons are broke 40+ (ie. don't work at all); I'm not that high yet but currently parse my poisons to be about 15-20% of my total damage output, so that hurts significantly. The only reason that scouts can tank at all is because of our high agi and medium armor, so although we can do a fair job tanking white or lower mobs (where avoidance shines), we can't tank any serious encounters, and brawler-types still do a better job avoidance tanking. I really just don't know how you consider us overpowered at all; our group utilities aren't even that useful (evac got nerfed, and our group stealth gives a movement speed penalty whereas mage group invis does not).</P> <P>For what it's worth, my first char was a 30 shammy and I had to quit and reroll because the clerics and druids healed circles around him (while I had my Adept3 for both single target wards) and I was starting to not find groups (or be told A LOT not to be main healer when I did find em). Before you cry noob at me, keep in mind I dinged 30 on December 12 and was the #13 Mystic on Mistmoore (which is a very competitive and uber server). I stripped him, sold his gear, and twinked my Swashy pretty heavily. I have enough money banked from provisionering before the big patch and alchemy after that, should Shammies get a boost, I might consider re-gearing him and coming out of retirement.</P>

disru
01-20-2005, 11:09 PM
<blockquote><hr>Jerhaa wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>disrupt wrote:<BR><BR>This thread would have been civil from the start had you chosen your words more intelligently. That is of course, if you truely did not want to start a flame thread.<BR><BR>FYI: 33.3% of "posters" on this thread agree with you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV>My Grandmother died yesterday and I was in a foul mood to start. I came to these boards to look at the provisioner form, and decided to see what my fellow Mystics were up to. When I saw our little neck of the boards is filled with a bunch of people whining about this class (the best healing class imo) I got disgusted a little faster then I normally would. </FONT></DIV><DIV></FONT> </DIV><DIV>So yea, a flame war got started… not sure I started it though.</FONT></DIV><DIV></FONT> </DIV><DIV>Oh and it seems only you and I are talking about that line, so it might just be a smoke war.<BR></DIV></FONT><hr></blockquote>First off, I'm sorry about your grandmother.When you read a post about an opinion, especially on a hot topic, the way it's written definitely has an impact on the type of responses you're going to get. People were on the defensive from the start.These are not good things to say if you'd like to keep the conversation professional and constructive:If you think a Mystic is underpowered, you don’t know how to play one.When I saw our little neck of the boards is filled with a bunch of people whining about this class (the best healing class imo) I got disgusted a little faster then I normally would.Please remember to show your community the same courtesy that you'd like it to show you.

Karla
01-20-2005, 11:40 PM
<DIV>Jerhaa ok its like this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>24 shaman:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>casts ward on mt.(1)</DIV> <DIV>mt pulls.</DIV> <DIV>by the tiem the mt gets back ward needs to be casted again or you can cast a debuff.</DIV> <DIV>haze is casted(2).  now haze from my expierence has about a 60% chance of landing.  for saek lets say it lands.</DIV> <DIV>Now i can either reward or toss a small heal.  ill reward(3)</DIV> <DIV>now i cast delusion or some other debuff. (4)</DIV> <DIV>  </DIV> <DIV>Now i am in decent shape.  this is assumnig no debuff resists which is very unlikely, but hey it can and does happen.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So i cast 4 spells.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>24 druid.</DIV> <DIV>Cast regrowth(1)</DIV> <DIV>mt pulls</DIV> <DIV>mt comes back </DIV> <DIV>I cast a bloom type of heal (2)</DIV> <DIV>mt is is good shape i have plenty of mana.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>does this seem balanced to you?  Consider the fact that all healers (c,s,d) should be able to heal the same and be effective just differently.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Next example.. There are countless shaman on this boards in game and on the spells board that say a shaman main ability is debuffing  that is the #1 tool then comes heals then wards.   (This wouldbe true if this was still eq1 where shaman debuffed), but this is EQ2 and wards are supposed to be our defining role not debuffing.  If i wanted a debuffer i would of rolled a necro or warlock.</DIV>

Karla
01-20-2005, 11:41 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jerhaa wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bouek wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>If a tank does not loose one point of HP with only wards and debuffs that means that the mobs are not hitting him... <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I never warded him.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> So debuffs are your #1 tool?  Glad to know wards arent.....

Karla
01-20-2005, 11:45 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jerhaa wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bouek wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jerhaa wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>They were mostly blue^^, and we were taking in 3 at a time. If I had not debuffed them the tank would have died in 10-20 seconds. Now we had no real solid DPS (only one was a level 28 ranger), so the fights took a very long time. In this situasion, I do not think any other healing class could have kept the tank alive. Not only could I keep him alive, as long as kept all 3 mobs debuffed, he didn't loose one hp of damage.</P> <P>I have read all the posts here before, I just don't agree the Mystic is underpowered. </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>If a tank does not loose one point of HP with only wards and debuffs that means that the mobs are not hitting him, not that your ward takes all the damage. The ward has alot of holes in them and dots, ripostes and special attacks all go straight through wards. Since he did not lose any hp, none of the above stated attacks from three mobs constantly hitting him during a long fight hit him. This is extremely unlikely but it could happen once or twice, not for a whole night however. Either that or you are just remebering what you want to remember. <BR><BR>That is why I asked for logs and some testing from you, to make sure what you post are how it really went down. Posting something like this with just your memory from the encounter is flame bait, no one can really argue with you because we wern't there so the post itself becomes useless and doesn't add to the debate but just brings forth more arguing.<BR>If you want to add something constructive to the debate, log the encounters next time, try some groups without debuffs, try some with only debuffs and heals, mix and match and try to get a broad picture of whats going on. Post it here with full logs so everyone can see and then no one can speak up against you because it is there in clear writing.<BR><BR>What banditman and others have done is bring these logs and screens to their posts and then built a case around that. I would love to see the people saying everyting is fine post logs where wards are working as inteded against magic users or mobs that hits hard with special attacks. So far, none have done this. You just make posts like this saying you think its fine and you are of course entitled to do that but it really doesn't make a difference. Arguing without having facts to back it up is like swimming in mud, slow, pointless and very tiresome and you know someone is gonna start tossing that mud around and then all hell breaks loose.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I am not someone looking to crunch a bunch of numbers, but disillusion + keening haze for a level 30 Mystic against a lvl 28 group mob means a lvl 30 tank will never get hit. (ok, maybe once out of 30 attempts, but he has T4 food for that). If I had to guess to turns the mob into the equivalent of a 23, and there is some magic 6 level thing where a mob more then 6 levels below you can't hit you.<BR> <BR>Go try it bud.<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> you do know that a mobs specials such as wild swing.

Karla
01-20-2005, 11:48 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Glorfindel85 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Karlace wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rego wrote:<BR> <DIV>I find it funny how many times people have described situations where my swashbuckler would get crushed yet we've already encountered and exceled in those situations.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mystics are not going to be equal with clerics or druids when using mitigation tanks.  That's not how the game is designed, roll up a cleric or a druid if you want to be good in those situations.  Stop spitting in the wind, that square peg is not fitting into that round hole.  Mystics excel at using evasion tanks, while still being able to do a fine job of being the only healer for a mitigation tank.  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>So then the devs did not accomplish the task at hand which is all healer types can heal effective in all groups.  The devs stated that in this game all healer should be able to be mh. </P> <P>I'm gonna call BS on the tank Mitigation comment as most pick-up groups only deal with mit tanks.  They can heal sure but do so at such a disadvantage it slows down the group.  I think you need to remove yourself from me and my swash arugment that you alway use and try pick-up groups for a extended period to get a feel for the real game.</FONT></P> <P>It also my personal opinion that rogues as s and swash are way overpowered.</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Hah. Swashies are the weakest DPS of all the scout classes (except the bards, but their buffs add more to group DPS than we contribute). We aren't any better tanks than any of the other scout classes; the only difference is that we get a couple taunts. Bard songs do a better job taunting than our taunts do. Poisons are broke 40+ (ie. don't work at all); I'm not that high yet but currently parse my poisons to be about 15-20% of my total damage output, so that hurts significantly. The only reason that scouts can tank at all is because of our high agi and medium armor, so although we can do a fair job tanking white or lower mobs (where avoidance shines), we can't tank any serious encounters, and brawler-types still do a better job avoidance tanking. I really just don't know how you consider us overpowered at all; our group utilities aren't even that useful (evac got nerfed, and our group stealth gives a movement speed penalty whereas mage group invis does not).</P> <P>For what it's worth, my first char was a 30 shammy and I had to quit and reroll because the clerics and druids healed circles around him (while I had my Adept3 for both single target wards) and I was starting to not find groups (or be told A LOT not to be main healer when I did find em). Before you cry noob at me, keep in mind I dinged 30 on December 12 and was the #13 Mystic on Mistmoore (which is a very competitive and uber server). I stripped him, sold his gear, and twinked my Swashy pretty heavily. I have enough money banked from provisionering before the big patch and alchemy after that, should Shammies get a boost, I might consider re-gearing him and coming out of retirement.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Rgoues should not get any taunts period.  taunts should be only for fighter classes

Glorfindel
01-21-2005, 01:01 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Karlace wrote:<BR> Rgoues should not get any taunts period.  taunts should be only for fighter classes<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Why is this, pray tell? Rogues were meant to have more group utility than Predators and put out a little less DPS, and this is actually an OK group utility skill. It's nowhere near as good as a Fighter taunt; we don't get any AoE taunts; we don't tank as well as Fighers. It IS nice, however, to be able to pull mobs off the finger-wagglers that drop in 2 or 3 hits until the tank can get it back off me. I don't think SOE meant for Swashies to be main tanks (we don't have the right tools for it).</DIV>

Banditman
01-21-2005, 01:08 AM
<DIV>I don't have a problem with Rogue's having some very limited taunt ability, and I don't think Fighters do either so long as it is just that . . . very limited.</DIV>

Mystiq
01-21-2005, 02:41 AM
<DIV>So what if rogues have a minor taunt? How does that affect you? Hell, I'm glad they do, that's one more person in the group that can take aggro off of me or whoever else shouldn't be taking damage. Rogue taunt has nothing to do with whether or not Mystics are underpowered.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Still waiting to be convinced by more <EM>high level </EM>Mystics that we have equal healing power as compared to Wardens and Templars, especially when our "special" healing line doesn't even heal to begin with, and absorbes non mitigated damage in sums that other healers can straight up heal for <EM>after mitigation.</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To be honest, I don't have trouble doing my job and keeping people alive. I have never grouped with a brawler tank, so I can't say how much better I'd do healing them. I play my character to the best of her abilities, and nobody tells me i'm [Removed for Content] or a bad healer. What happens to make me question my Mystic's healing equality is when I start watching how well other healers heal, and digging for info on how well other healers can heal (see my post on page 1). THAT is when they and I realize that there's something wrong here. THAT is what perpetuates the sterotypes from EQ 1 when there is not meant to be any second class healers in this game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Karla
01-21-2005, 03:31 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Glorfindel85 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Karlace wrote:<BR> Rgoues should not get any taunts period.  taunts should be only for fighter classes<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Why is this, pray tell? Rogues were meant to have more group utility than Predators and put out a little less DPS, and this is actually an OK group utility skill. It's nowhere near as good as a Fighter taunt; we don't get any AoE taunts; we don't tank as well as Fighers. It IS nice, however, to be able to pull mobs off the finger-wagglers that drop in 2 or 3 hits until the tank can get it back off me. I don't think SOE meant for Swashies to be main tanks (we don't have the right tools for it).</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> I hear alot of groups who use a swash as the mt.

Jerh
01-21-2005, 03:33 AM
<DIV>Look guys I didn't come here to get in a p-i-s-sing contest about this and that. I came here to say if you give me 5 players to play with (none of them healers) and the 6 of us go out looking for stuff to kill, we will have a great time and none of them will wish they had a diferent healing class char with them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We do just fine.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>it's a game to have fun with, I have 4 chars in the 20's (well, Mystic is 30), and my Mystic is the most fun for me to play. Being fun is the end goal of a game, I think we are in good shape.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Karla
01-21-2005, 04:13 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jerhaa wrote:<BR> <DIV>Look guys I didn't come here to get in a p-i-s-sing contest about this and that. I came here to say if you give me 5 players to play with (none of them healers) and the 6 of us go out looking for stuff to kill, we will have a great time and none of them will wish they had a diferent healing class char with them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We do just fine.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>it's a game to have fun with, I have 4 chars in the 20's (well, Mystic is 30), and my Mystic is the most fun for me to play. Being fun is the end goal of a game, I think we are in good shape.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> I do not disagree that we can keep a group alive.  I am saying that druids and clerics can do ti easier and better.

MilkToa
01-21-2005, 05:53 AM
<DIV>I'm not a Msytic (actually a 35 Templer) but I'd like to add my 2 cents to this discussion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you read the EQ2 manual and other documentation it states clearly that all healing classes should be able to heal equally well. The way they heal may be different but in the end the result should be the same.  From this I would assume that given 2 healers of equal level, abilitity and quality of spells but of different classes they should be able to perform equivalently. Even if there are some differences based on type of tank this deviation should be minor.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Equivalent to me also implies that these healers have very similar efficiency ratings (that is healing per mana comsumed) and aggro generation. Since debuffing can reduce damage I would include both debuff spells and all healing spells in this calculation. If this is NOT true then something is wrong. If it takes a mystic 60% of his/her power to heal for an encounter and a templar uses only 25% of his/her power for the same encounter then something is broken. Also, if I can heal the encounter and never get aggro but the mytic gets aggro regularly then something is broken.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Based on the above assumptions, from my experience something is broken for mytics. It's not that they can't heal, it's just that it's not on par with some of the other healing classes from an efficiency/aggro standpoint. I'm sure there are many ways to adjust mystic spells to bring them in line with other healers.  I don't know why any mystic should have to accept the current problems.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Ender
01-21-2005, 06:18 AM
I don't think mystics have to worry at all. The best combo at higher levels is the Brawler/Shaman combo, hands down. With agility buffs, theres pretty much no need to heal. Cleric/Tank combo performs decently, but not up to par lvl 40+. For raid groups, get a brawler + bard + druid + shaman. With 300 agility it's game over.

kenji
01-21-2005, 10:51 AM
<DIV>well...i am not a high lvl mystic (35 only), but i got question abt RAID groups like Dragon slaying or similar encounters. i got a question abt it.</DIV> <DIV>Is it SAME possible that i can debuff a 54^^^ dragons same as normal Exp red con mobs?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if yes, i agree Brawler/Shaman combo is nice. however...at 35 myself, i have difficulties debuffs red mobs with adept 1 spells, my worst record is 41^^ (barely red) resisted my debuffs 7 times in a row, finally landed at 20% hp.....</DIV> <DIV>Also , can brawler type avoidance tank red^^^ with same rate as normal red^^ mobs?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if not, i dun see a single reason using Mystic but not extra Templer/Druid (except buffing Avatar.....) their heal ratio is 2.5 times better than mystic <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> not to mention that Templer's RH got extra AC buffs, which help even more <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

Noah
01-21-2005, 12:22 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kenjiso wrote:<BR> <DIV>well...i am not a high lvl mystic (35 only), but i got question abt RAID groups like Dragon slaying or similar encounters. i got a question abt it.</DIV> <DIV>Is it SAME possible that i can debuff a 54^^^ dragons same as normal Exp red con mobs?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if yes, i agree Brawler/Shaman combo is nice. however...at 35 myself, i have difficulties debuffs red mobs with adept 1 spells, my worst record is 41^^ (barely red) resisted my debuffs 7 times in a row, finally landed at 20% hp.....</DIV> <DIV>Also , can brawler type avoidance tank red^^^ with same rate as normal red^^ mobs?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if not, i dun see a single reason using Mystic but not extra Templer/Druid (except buffing Avatar.....) their heal ratio is 2.5 times better than mystic <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> not to mention that Templer's RH got extra AC buffs, which help even more <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>My guild just killed a level 52 +++ x4 raid mob. Slows land but immediately fall off, however Chimerik landed fine (at app 2). I have yet to see a red mob to me at level 50, and didn't kill raid mobs much before then.</P> <P> </P>

Mystiq
01-21-2005, 12:24 PM
<DIV>Oops that was me in the post above. I was logged into my husband's account and forgot :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Locut
01-21-2005, 07:35 PM
Eloora, I had the same problem too last night on Krathuk (or whatever big guy spawns in feerot). I was able to land chimerik about 80% of the time, but my defiler friend and I couldnt land any other debuff for more than the first tick. I was telling him maybe it was due to the level that we received the spells, but he said that his level 47 spell wouldnt stick either.Funny thing is the night before, i could land slows on a named in lava who was level 54 group4. I have a hunch the feerot guy is just bugged, anyways he drops green cloth sashes <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Ender
01-21-2005, 10:03 PM
Oh no, don't worry about debuffs. You won't even need them at higher levels. If the brawler hardly ever gets hit, there is no need for anything really except to re-ward once in a while. Right now, Agility > Damage Mitigation at 40+. You will really see the difference.

Kalam
01-21-2005, 10:28 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EnderMX wrote:<BR>Oh no, don't worry about debuffs. You won't even need them at higher levels. If the brawler hardly ever gets hit, there is no need for anything really except to re-ward once in a while. Right now, Agility > Damage Mitigation at 40+. You will really see the difference.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Until Agility gets tuned ... which I guarantee is coming soon.</P> <P> </P>

Jerh
01-22-2005, 12:16 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kalamos wrote:<BR><BR><BR> <P>Until Agility gets tuned ... which I guarantee is coming soon.</P> <P> <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>So now not only are you complaining about how you feel our class sucks, your complaining about how you feel it will suck in the future?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I give up. good luck to all of you.</DIV>

Kalam
01-22-2005, 12:34 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jerhaa wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kalamos wrote:<BR><BR><BR> <P>Until Agility gets tuned ... which I guarantee is coming soon.</P> <P> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>So now not only are you complaining about how you feel our class sucks, your complaining about how you feel it will suck in the future?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I give up. good luck to all of you.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I've never once said our class sucks, nor have I once complained.  Show me where I did and I'll eat my foot.  Agility is going to get tuned because people that are getting Agi over 300 are not getting hit AT ALL!  People are using Swashbucklers to tank boss mobs because some are doing it better than plate tanks.  Alot of this has to do with Bards being able to stack some Agi songs.  Dude if you look around a little you'll find this all over the place.</P> <P> </P>

Jerh
01-22-2005, 01:54 AM
<DIV>Acutely, I mistook you for Karlace, sorry. I read most of your posts and you do seem to post balanced responses.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But just to see if I can get you to at least take a bite out of your foot, here are a few quotes from you...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>“Thanks to this analysis and discussion, it's becoming abundantly clear that Wards need to be looked at.  If you want to bury your head in the sand and go on about your merry way, hey all the power to you.  It's all about having fun in the end and if you're having fun that's all that matters.  But hopefully what goes on here will help make the class better which benefits everyone.”</DIV> <DIV><BR>“Ahh I thought Cleric reactives suffered from the same limitation.  Well that just makes this worse.  It solidifies the argument that Wards are at a severe disadvantage to the other Priest class specific heals.”</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

disru
01-22-2005, 02:18 AM
Both of those quotes are issues with wards, which we have been discussing since the game launched (some even prelaunch/beta period). Just because I, and many others in the mystic community, feel that wards need some tuning, does not mean we think mystics suck. I feel that mystics make a great contribution to any group. We really shine when there is another healer to main heal allowing us to play backup and utility, but that is not what our primary purpose is suppose to be. We are of the priest archetype and thus should be healers first and foremost, however as things are right now, we are no where near as efficient as a druid or cleric playing the main or sole healer role.

Jerh
01-22-2005, 02:52 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> disrupt wrote:<BR>Both of those quotes are issues with wards, which we have been discussing since the game launched (some even prelaunch/beta period). Just because I, and many others in the mystic community, feel that wards need some tuning, does not mean we think mystics suck. I feel that mystics make a great contribution to any group. We really shine when there is another healer to main heal allowing us to play backup and utility, but that is not what our primary purpose is suppose to be. We are of the priest archetype and thus should be healers first and foremost, however as things are right now, we are no where near as efficient as a druid or cleric playing the main or sole healer role.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>ok, so it's a mana use issue. After I read this, I thought to myself:</P> <P> </P> <P>Have I ever been the reason the party holds on the next mob due to mana?</P> <P>Usualy no. Most of the time we are waiting on the DPS classes for regain there mana.</P> <P> </P> <P>Have I ever had a party die when I felt another healing class would have saved them?</P> <P>No.</P> <P> </P> <P>Have I ever not been turned down for a group due to my class? (a mesure of comunity perception of Mystic's)</P> <P>No.</P> <P> </P> <P>Unless I start to feel the answer to any of those questions is yes, I don't care about numbers, or if something is broke.</P> <P> </P> <P>But that's just me.</P>

disru
01-22-2005, 04:25 AM
Fair enough <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Like I said before, I won't critcize you for your opinion.

Banditman
01-24-2005, 07:58 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jerhaa wrote:<BR><BR> <P>Have I ever not been turned down for a group due to my class? (a mesure of comunity perception of Mystic's)</P> <P>No.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You cannot answer that question honestly, because people who may or may not turn you down based on class simply won't ask you.  You never see the "rejects" because you are never contacted.</P> <P>Hey, look, if you are happy with your Mystic, great.  Enjoy.</P> <P>These discussions clearly have no impact on you.  Because things work for you, please, go enjoy the game.</P> <P>Those of us here who feel underpowered are doing our best to put a quantifiable value on it.  We "feel" underpowered, we want to know why that may be.  We do the numerical analysis and logical comparison to find those answers.  We're starting to reap some rewards of those investigations, and they lead to a certain conclusion.</P> <P>Just because things "work" for you does not invalidate those conclusions.  It merely shows that, as we have said, the problems are not insurmountable or debilitating.  If you wish to debate those conclusions, it is necessary to bring evidence to the contrary.  </P> <P>So far, no one has done that.<BR></P>

Nunc
01-24-2005, 10:46 PM
<DIV>If you fight little monster you do not need a healer. Try larger stuff then revisit the fourm.</DIV>

Noosehunt
01-25-2005, 01:04 AM
Urm... I'm level 30 now, and most of the fallen giants are green ^^ group to me. I solo there, pull with slow, then proceed to melee with HO-miasma-coldfire. I don't even ward myself when I do that. There is no need to. Sometimes I try a blue^^, and it gets dicey, and end the fight with no-power, and some health left.That said, when I duo with my level 30 guardian friend there, he does not even need to be healed or warded either. There is a big difference between green^^ and yellow^^/orange^^ mobs. The greenies are wimpies. Here's what I typically do on the group con:green^^: just slow, dot, dot.blue^^: ward, slow, dot, dot.white^^: ward, ward, slow, debuff.yellow^^: ward, ward, group-ward, slow, debuff, repeat.orange^^: ward, ward, group-ward, slow, debuff, hit quick/slow heal depending on situation, re-ward and repeat.To me, this is basically how the rest of EQ2 will pan out to be like, and all group encounters are starting to look "the same" to me. There's nothing special about healing the tank, or any strategy involved. It's all textbook, and the same "template" can be used on different mobs, i.e., yellow^^ goblins are the same as yellow^^ orcs, etc. I suspect that the sameness of all the encounters is what's going to put me off this game. There's no skill involved. It's not like in EQ, you can VP (root-park) a mob away from the tank, or help with the positioning of the mobs with dogdog (and his pals). A mystic here can do very little else. Maybe my days of a mystic or even EQ2 are numbered.-NH<p>Message Edited by Noosehunter on <span class=date_text>01-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:15 PM</span>

Banditman
01-25-2005, 02:15 AM
<DIV>Do keep in mind that it took EQ 4 or 5 years for fights to become "complex" as you describe.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You're right, Shaman lost some of their "jack of all trades" abilities.  We gained in other areas.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Each class is the same, they have some things that they do very well, and others that they do poorly or not at all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Crowd control is certainly not something Shaman do anymore, and in fact is a very limited, though important ability possessed by only a few.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want to try your hand at "utility" or perhaps "crowd control" I'd recommend a Bard or Enchanter respectively.  A good Bard is priceless for utility and a GOOD chanter can really take a bad situation and save it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To each their own of course.</DIV>

Karla
01-25-2005, 04:17 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jerhaa wrote:<BR> <DIV>Acutely, I mistook you for Karlace, sorry. I read most of your posts and you do seem to post balanced responses.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But just to see if I can get you to at least take a bite out of your foot, here are a few quotes from you...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>“Thanks to this analysis and discussion, it's becoming abundantly clear that Wards need to be looked at.  If you want to bury your head in the sand and go on about your merry way, hey all the power to you.  It's all about having fun in the end and if you're having fun that's all that matters.  But hopefully what goes on here will help make the class better which benefits everyone.”</DIV> <DIV><BR>“Ahh I thought Cleric reactives suffered from the same limitation.  Well that just makes this worse.  It solidifies the argument that Wards are at a severe disadvantage to the other Priest class specific heals.”</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Thanks you remembered me :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway when compareds to how a druid or cleric can heal, yes a mystic leaves some to be desired.  All I want is what was stated in the darn game.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Karlace on <span class=date_text>01-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:20 PM</span>

Jerh
02-02-2005, 01:43 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nunchi wrote:<BR> <DIV>If you fight little monster you do not need a healer. Try larger stuff then revisit the fourm.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Sorry to dredge this up, but I have been on travel.</P> <P>At lvl 31, I was fighting in EL last night. Full group (level 29-32's), we were killing lvl 36 or 35 great bir bears or whatever there called. OJ group mobs. If I didn't throw my 2 debuffs the tank would take some major damage. With the two debuffs we could finish the encounter without him needing to be healed or warded.</P> <P>I could be the only healer, and only throw 2 spells every 60 seconds. Hard to beat that.<BR></P> <P> </P>

Jerh
02-02-2005, 01:58 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR> <P>You cannot answer that question honestly, because people who may or may not turn you down based on class simply won't ask you.  You never see the "rejects" because you are never contacted.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I know I have never had to spend more then 2 minutes looking for a group. "/ooc lvl x Mystic LFG" gets me a group in usually less then 30 seconds. 5-6 times a night I get random people asking if I would like to group (I never use the LFG flag). So my guess is we are well liked, on my server anyway.</P> <P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote: <P>Hey, look, if you are happy with your Mystic, great.  Enjoy.</P> <P>These discussions clearly have no impact on you.  Because things work for you, please, go enjoy the game.</P> <P>Those of us here who feel underpowered are doing our best to put a quantifiable value on it.  We "feel" underpowered, we want to know why that may be.  We do the numerical analysis and logical comparison to find those answers.  We're starting to reap some rewards of those investigations, and they lead to a certain conclusion.</P> <P>Just because things "work" for you does not invalidate those conclusions.  It merely shows that, as we have said, the problems are not insurmountable or debilitating.  If you wish to debate those conclusions, it is necessary to bring evidence to the contrary.  </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Not true. If other players come here and read these treads without any rebuttal from people like me, they are going to think Mystic's are broke, and that is not the case at all. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One of two things is true:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The class is broke.<BR>or<BR>Your perception of the class is incorrect.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I feel the second is the case. I can not help you see my point of view without open debate in these forums. Leaving these threads unchecked I feel does an injustice to the class.<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Karla
02-02-2005, 03:40 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jerhaa wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR> <P>You cannot answer that question honestly, because people who may or may not turn you down based on class simply won't ask you.  You never see the "rejects" because you are never contacted.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I know I have never had to spend more then 2 minutes looking for a group. "/ooc lvl x Mystic LFG" gets me a group in usually less then 30 seconds. 5-6 times a night I get random people asking if I would like to group (I never use the LFG flag). So my guess is we are well liked, on my server anyway.</P> <P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote: <P>Hey, look, if you are happy with your Mystic, great.  Enjoy.</P> <P>These discussions clearly have no impact on you.  Because things work for you, please, go enjoy the game.</P> <P>Those of us here who feel underpowered are doing our best to put a quantifiable value on it.  We "feel" underpowered, we want to know why that may be.  We do the numerical analysis and logical comparison to find those answers.  We're starting to reap some rewards of those investigations, and they lead to a certain conclusion.</P> <P>Just because things "work" for you does not invalidate those conclusions.  It merely shows that, as we have said, the problems are not insurmountable or debilitating.  If you wish to debate those conclusions, it is necessary to bring evidence to the contrary.  </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Not true. If other players come here and read these treads without any rebuttal from people like me, they are going to think Mystic's are broke, and that is not the case at all. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One of two things is true:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The class is broke.<BR>or<BR>Your perception of the class is incorrect.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I feel the second is the case. I can not help you see my point of view without open debate in these forums. Leaving these threads unchecked I feel does an injustice to the class.<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>And like wise if people coem here and only see your posts they may think the class is perfect which is not true.  </P> <P>One of 2 thing is true:</P> <P>The class is broke</P> <P>or</P> <P>your perception of how the class is, is off.</P> <P>i think the second is the case.  I expect alot more out of this class called mystics then to watch my other healer classes out preform without breaking a sweat.</P>

Jerh
02-02-2005, 04:30 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Karlace wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> I expect alot more out of this class called mystics then to watch my other healer classes out preform without breaking a sweat.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>There not outperforming you, they are just doing it with less mouse clicks/key strokes. So yea, it's more work to be a Mystic. But played well it's the same outcome.</DIV>

Kalam
02-02-2005, 05:14 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jerhaa wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Karlace wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> I expect alot more out of this class called mystics then to watch my other healer classes out preform without breaking a sweat.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>There not outperforming you, they are just doing it with less mouse clicks/key strokes. So yea, it's more work to be a Mystic. But played well it's the same outcome.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>See the difference in opinion here is Jerhaa doesn't care about efficiency.  When I say efficiency I mean the amount of power it costs for us to get the job done vs. other Priests.  Jerhaa has said before that if the group is alive when the encounter is dead then we performed just as well as another Priest.  If we used more Power to get the job done, the added downtime to regen that power back isn't all that bad with good drink and barely noticable.  I'm sure you'd agree that "more clicks/key strokes" = more power consumption right?</P> <P>But this is where I disagree with you Jerhaa and where I think your viewpoint has some flaws.  Yes at the end of the day, what matters is if the group is alive vs. dead.  But what about those fights where everyone in the group uses every ounce of their power, and that last heal or ward makes the difference?  If it didn't cost more power for me to get the job done then that last heal might have saved the day.  Or when you get several resists with Slow or Delusion?  Each cast costs more power, and while I wait for the recast timer to expire I'm having to cast more heals since the target isn't slowed or debuffed.  If a Shaman is required to use his/her debuffs in order to be on equal footing with other Priests, then Shaman heals should cost less power per HP point healed or warded ... but they don't.  In fact in many cases our heals cost MORE power per HP point healed.</P> <P>I personally feel efficiency is just as important as the ability to get the job done, and being inefficient can be just as damaging to class perception.</P>

BigDa
02-02-2005, 03:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kalamos wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jerhaa wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Karlace wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> I expect alot more out of this class called mystics then to watch my other healer classes out preform without breaking a sweat.</BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>There not outperforming you, they are just doing it with less mouse clicks/key strokes. So yea, it's more work to be a Mystic. But played well it's the same outcome.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>...Yes at the end of the day, what matters is if the group is alive vs. dead.  But what about those fights where everyone in the group uses every ounce of their power, and that last heal or ward makes the difference?  If it didn't cost more power for me to get the job done then that last heal might have saved the day.  Or when you get several resists with Slow or Delusion?  Each cast costs more power, and while I wait for the recast timer to expire I'm having to cast more heals since the target isn't slowed or debuffed.  If a Shaman is required to use his/her debuffs in order to be on equal footing with other Priests, then Shaman heals should cost less power per HP point healed or warded ... but they don't.  In fact in many cases our heals cost MORE power per HP point healed.</P> <P>I personally feel efficiency is just as important as the ability to get the job done, and being inefficient can be just as damaging to class perception. <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I'm not called Big Dave for nothing.  I went skiing with 10 friends last week.  I'm not very good - they are much better - but we still had good fun.  Having said that, I happily sat out a few runs so they could go stretch there legs and ski to their ability.  Sometimes, pushing yourself to the edge of your ability IS what is fun.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a mystic, I am finding myself to be the 'slow skier'.  Sure, I can ski and have fun with my group, but I <EM>am</EM> holding them back from the fun to be achieved in stretching themselves and performing at a peak.  They are looking at those black runs or thinking of doing 10 blue runs in a row and then looking at me and sighing and skiing on with me on the green (easy) runs.  I don't like to feel I'm holding back my friends all the time.  And with people we don't know, eventually, us 'slow skiers' are going to find it harder getting into a group, because maybe they aren't the kind that can have fun skiing slowly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok, now that's an example that overstates the case, but I hope it helps folks understand.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"To all mystics that think we are <EM>not</EM> underpowered": Good for you, but quit calling the rest of us "whiners", ok?  We just want to ski the same runs as our friends.</DIV><p>Message Edited by BigDave on <span class=date_text>02-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:37 AM</span>

Banditman
02-02-2005, 07:46 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kalamos wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>But what about those fights where everyone in the group uses every ounce of their power, and that last heal or ward makes the difference?  If it didn't cost more power for me to get the job done then that last heal might have saved the day.  Or when you get several resists with Slow or Delusion?  Each cast costs more power, and while I wait for the recast timer to expire I'm having to cast more heals since the target isn't slowed or debuffed.  If a Shaman is required to use his/her debuffs in order to be on equal footing with other Priests, then Shaman heals should cost less power per HP point healed or warded ... but they don't.  In fact in many cases our heals cost MORE power per HP point healed.</BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I personally feel efficiency is just as important as the ability to get the job done, and being inefficient can be just as damaging to class perception.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>To extend that logic, what about those fights where the group wipes with the mob at less than 25% because we just flat ran out of power . . . perhaps that fight is a win with a Cleric or Druid due to their increased efficiency.<BR></P>

Jerh
02-03-2005, 01:53 AM
<DIV>I do not think more mouse clicks equals less efficient. I count Mana as the level of efficiency and a well played Mystic in the right environment is more efficient then a Templar.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will use an EL experience as an example. 6 of us all in the low 30’s (30-32) were fighting Bir Bears. We had two healers on this occasion, myself (31 Mystic) and a 32 Templar. With 1 pull of a level 35 (OJ group mob) I would cast Disillusion and Keening haze to debuff the mob and then ward. The ward would last through the timer with the mob debuffed. I then would cast another ward 30 seconds later, 2 more debuffs when the first 2 wore off, another ward and by then (90 seconds) the mob was dead. It was over, I never needed to heal and had 80% mana left. Now if we got an add I would then have to make sure both mobs were debuffed and cast an extra ward. So with 2 I would have about 50% mana at the end of the fight, however I was clicking a lot of buttons, remembering what debuffs were on what mob, and so forth. More player involvement then a Templar would need to do, but less mana.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I told the Templar I was going to sit out the next battle, as I wanted to see how well a Templar could manage the same fight. We engaged and off the bat she needed to start healing (mana drain), and low and behold, we got an add. At this point she was starting to loose mana fast, so when she was at 10% I jumped back in a saved the tank from what would most likely be a death. Not sure if the tank had hunkered down or not, so he might have lived, but it was not nearly as efficient for the templar as it was for me. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Heals are a mana killer, and played right against the right mob (no, not easy, just right) we don’t need to heal.</DIV> <DIV><BR>Now, against a group of mobs we are not near as good, I feel more then half of our damage mitigation value comes from debuffing, and being we don’t get a good group debuff (not at 31 anyway) we are far less effective against groups. Against a group I have to chain ward and heal. If the tank is going down fast I might have to group heal (to get the agro) then use phantasm so send the mobs running (gives a good 5-10 seconds of non-damage time for all of the party member’s timers to reset and for me to heal the tank). This scenario we are less effective, but I would claim in 95% of the times I fail to keep the party alive, no other healing class would have been successful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So to use the skiing analogy above, I don’t think we are blue runs compared to other healers being black runs. 90% of the black runs we can all do, where 5% only a Mystic can take and 5% only a templar or druid can take.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh and one last note. When I am teamed with any other healing class, they become the backup healer by the nature of our healing style. We are not healers, we are designed to make sure the tank never needs to be healed. We are more like damage avoiders. So due to this, if we are doing our job right, the other healing classes don’t have a job. I have a few Templar friend that don’t want to group with my anymore because they feel they’re just being PLed as they have no purpose. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That’s the single best thing about being a Mystic, of all the healing classes; you’re the first line of defense. Do your job well and in most cases you don’t need a second line. A Mystic (as long as there are no other Mystics in the group) will never feel unimportant. Other healing classes will.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have played as many hours as a Mystic as most anyone. I am only 31 because I turned XP off a long time ago as my guild showed up from another game and I am waiting on them to catch up. If I had not, I would probably be in my mid 40’s. And you can not convince me that we are a weaker healing class then the others. <BR></DIV>

Banditman
02-03-2005, 02:20 AM
<DIV>Show me the money.  Logs will be fine if money is unavailable.</DIV>

Jerh
02-03-2005, 02:53 AM
<DIV>I almost take offence, as somehow you don’t believe me, thus I must be lying.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But I will do what I can.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How do I make these logs you wish to see?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, I didn’t play my Mystic last night. Anyone know if the new agility patch changed things for peeps pre 40?  <BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit: my tank will be either a 31-32 Zerker or 30 Guardian for this test.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Jerhaa on <span class=date_text>02-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:58 PM</span>

Melamp
02-03-2005, 03:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Fights are always different, logs don't show much</P> <P>you might have to heal/ward like a mofo the first 20% of a mobs health...then not have to do much for the next 60% then heal like a mofo at the end...and all this with the same buffs/debuffs at the begining of the fight<BR></P>

disru
02-03-2005, 03:26 AM
<blockquote><hr>Jerhaa wrote:<DIV>I almost take offence, as somehow you don’t believe me, thus I must be lying.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>But I will do what I can.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>How do I make these logs you wish to see?</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Also, I didn’t play my Mystic last night. Anyone know if the new agility patch changed things for peeps pre 40? <BR></DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Edit: my tank will be either a 31-32 Zerker or 30 Guardian for this test.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Jerhaa on <span class=date_text>02-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:58 PM</span><hr></blockquote>When you get into game, type /logThis will turn logging on, you should get a text indictation that it is on.To retrieve the log, it will be a text file in %program filessonyeverquest 2logs

Noosehunt
02-03-2005, 03:42 AM
I must admit that I haven't been playing my mystic for over 2 weeks now. Our regular group started a newbie group, and I ended up with a conjuror. Instead of having a guardian/mystic (tank/healer) combo, we had a pally/warden combo instead.What I learnt: Our wards, even though perceived as underpowered or inefficient, is very important for the tank to be able to grab aggro and hold it.I say this, because we can stack those wards, and give the tank time to grab aggro before we need to re-ward or start healing.In our newbie group, the warden pre-buffs the pally, and pally pulls, health drops to orange (almost immediately, we were killing the spider queen in BB), and she starts to heal. She lands one heal, and then immediately draws aggro (if not from the named, from the other mobs that came with the named). We didn't manage to pull the aggro off her, and we proceed to wipe as we lost the healer.Second try. In comes a botted mystic of similar levels. We do exactly the same thing, only that the mystic has stack warded the pally. Pally's health does not drop as quick as before, and as a result, the druid did not have to heal as quickly and he managed to draw enough aggro to hold it. When the druid had to heal, she did not draw aggro. All the botted mystic had to do was to slow and re-ward the tank.Maybe our pally sucked (hahaha), but the simple addition of wards and a slow did help alot. The botted mystic did not add any heals, or any dps (main was a swashy).We may be inefficient, but I can tell you that other healers sure love us to be in the same group as they are.-NH

kenji
02-03-2005, 06:10 AM
<DIV>wards are always good when under lvl 20 w/o AQs or similar crafted...when everyone was almost naked, Wards are GREAT, because 0 ac remain 0 ac....but not when a 4000 AC Guardian with a 0 AC Ward</DIV>

Shunidar
02-03-2005, 10:05 AM
<DIV> <DIV>"wards are always good when under lvl 20 w/o AQs or similar crafted...when everyone was almost naked, Wards are GREAT, because 0 ac remain 0 ac....but not when a 4000 AC Guardian with a 0 AC Ward"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Shocking how difficult that concept is to grasp.  4000AC guardian w/ 0AC ward = dead ward, fast.</DIV></DIV>

BigDa
02-03-2005, 02:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jerhaa wrote:<BR> <DIV>I do not think more mouse clicks equals less efficient. I count Mana as the level of efficiency and a well played Mystic in the right environment is more efficient then a Templar.</DIV> <DIV>... <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I hopeyou don't take insult from this, but I didn't have to read further than this line.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Noone is arguing that mystics can't be good.  What us 'whiners' are saying is that the 'environment' in which mystics are efficient happens along about 10% of the time and the rest of the time we have a very hard time.  Clerics and Druids do not have this bizarre variance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It seems to me that most of the detracters from these threads are the ones that seem to have regular groups and guildmate partners that include the correct class-mix or fight in the right places for mystics to actually work.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Good for you guys.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally, wards give me issues and my heals are wimpy.</DIV>

Spag
02-03-2005, 09:08 PM
<DIV>Case and point, I was in a group last night with my lvl 20 mystic in TS.  We took on some lvl 20 gnolls.  The encounter I am referring to here was a pair of lvl 20 gnolls each with ^.   My wards were not even lasting 10 seconds for the until the first gnoll went down. On top of that so much damage was bypassing the ward, that the tank was already in the orange.  I could not ward and heal fast enough, much less try to debuff.  Now everyone in the group was lvl 19 or 20, it should not have been that close.  After that encounter I had a very poor view of my mystic.  There was a lvl 20 fury in the group as well, but they were acting as DPS, until this fight.  Afterwhich they became main healer and I went to DPS.  We did another few rounds of the exact same type of group, and he had no problem whatsoever dealing with the damage.  I did not ward just to see how the fury would handle it, but was ready in case.  I also skipped my debuffs just to make sure I was not affecting the outcome as well.  After about 5 fights like that with me being a sad form of DPS, I logged off my mystic and came back with my Sorc for higher DPS since the Fury was able to handle healing all by himself.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I feel more underpowered than ever before.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit: Fixed minor spelling error</DIV><p>Message Edited by Spagma on <span class=date_text>02-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:10 AM</span>

Jerh
02-04-2005, 03:11 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Spagma wrote:<BR> <DIV>Case and point, I was in a group last night with my lvl 20 mystic in TS.  We took on some lvl 20 gnolls.  The encounter I am referring to here was a pair of lvl 20 gnolls each with ^.   My wards were not even lasting 10 seconds for the until the first gnoll went down. On top of that so much damage was bypassing the ward, that the tank was already in the orange.  I could not ward and heal fast enough, much less try to debuff.  Now everyone in the group was lvl 19 or 20, it should not have been that close.  </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Not to be a jerk, but this is a good example of someone saying Mystic's are poor healers, because they are not playing them corectly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you are not debuffing the mobs, you are shooting yourself in the foot. Also are all your spells app3 or better? Was the tank 19? 20 is a hallmark level. The difference between a 19 tank and a 20 mob is a lot bigger then a 18 tank and a 19 mob. I forget the name of the debuffs at lvl 20, but you should have a haze one and another one. Make sure you land them on both mobs. They don't draw agro, so thow then asap. Also hit each mob with 1 before you apply the second. Stacked while effective enough to be worth doing, does not mitigate damage as well as 1 buff on each mob. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So for an example, if I was the healer in this group:</DIV> <DIV>Ward the Tank. Make sure the tank draws with a ranged spell. The second you see the tank start his pull animation, fire your first debuff. Click on the other mob, use the other debuff (so you don't have to wait on timers). Re-Ward the tank, even if the ward has not fallen. Over using your wards is a lot more mana efficient then having to throw a heal. Debuff each mob with the debuff that's not on them. Now you shoudl have 2 debuffs on each mob, and at my level, I am done. Sit back and watch the show.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At 20 it probably does not work as well, but this would be a good start.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also if you had a full group, your Fury should have been helping out. No need to make it harder then it needs to be.</DIV>

Merrygr
02-04-2005, 12:40 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jerhaa wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Spagma wrote:<BR> <DIV>Case and point, I was in a group last night with my lvl 20 mystic in TS.  We took on some lvl 20 gnolls.  The encounter I am referring to here was a pair of lvl 20 gnolls each with ^.   My wards were not even lasting 10 seconds for the until the first gnoll went down. On top of that so much damage was bypassing the ward, that the tank was already in the orange.  I could not ward and heal fast enough, much less try to debuff.  Now everyone in the group was lvl 19 or 20, it should not have been that close.  </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Not to be a jerk, but this is a good example of someone saying Mystic's are poor healers, because they are not playing them corectly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you are not debuffing the mobs, you are shooting yourself in the foot. Also are all your spells app3 or better? Was the tank 19? 20 is a hallmark level. The difference between a 19 tank and a 20 mob is a lot bigger then a 18 tank and a 19 mob. I forget the name of the debuffs at lvl 20, but you should have a haze one and another one. Make sure you land them on both mobs. They don't draw agro, so thow then asap. Also hit each mob with 1 before you apply the second. Stacked while effective enough to be worth doing, does not mitigate damage as well as 1 buff on each mob. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So for an example, if I was the healer in this group:</DIV> <DIV>Ward the Tank. Make sure the tank draws with a ranged spell. The second you see the tank start his pull animation, fire your first debuff. Click on the other mob, use the other debuff (so you don't have to wait on timers). Re-Ward the tank, even if the ward has not fallen. Over using your wards is a lot more mana efficient then having to throw a heal. Debuff each mob with the debuff that's not on them. Now you shoudl have 2 debuffs on each mob, and at my level, I am done. Sit back and watch the show.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At 20 it probably does not work as well, but this would be a good start.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also if you had a full group, your Fury should have been helping out. No need to make it harder then it needs to be.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>And your reply here shows one of the reasons why a lot of people think that the shamans are underpowered compared to other healers.</P> <P>In the above example the shaman is required to cast 4 spells just to be able to function properly. The fury only needed to use his heals. In an ancounter like the above it isn't all that much of a problem, but when you fight 4 mobs at the same time it certanly does. Those encounters are heavily front loaded in damage. If you start debuffing those mobs the tank will be dead long before you are done. When the initial frenzy is over and you can start debuffing it is likely that the group is down to only two mobs left and debuffs at that point is pretty much a wast of power.</P> <P>The other part of this equation is that a heal is never resisted. Debuffs are. So if debuffs are part of our way of keeping a group alive a shaman is a healer that can heal when he is lucky, but will get the group wiped on a day where he is unlucky.</P> <P>A skilled shaman can keep a group up in most situations. But why should a group try to find a skilled shaman when you can use any cleric or druid?</P> <P>Now I want to be an active player, so I really don't mind the fact that we have to cast a gazzilion spells in every fight. I also have a regular group, so I never have to go LFG. I'm just worried that eventually shamans will get the rep that druids had in EQ1. Not good enough at healing and not good enough damage = solo for the rest of your career. In games like these it has proven in the past that a jack of all trades is never as good as the sum of its parts. You always want the specialists.</P> <DIV>And btw, saying that slow does not draw aggro is pure BS</DIV><p>Message Edited by Merrygrin on <span class=date_text>02-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:42 AM</span>

BigDa
02-04-2005, 05:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jerhaa wrote:<BR> <DIV>Not to be a jerk, but this is a good example of someone saying Mystic's are poor healers, because they are not playing them corectly.</DIV> <DIV>...you should have a haze one and another one. Make sure you land them on both mobs. They don't draw agro, so thow then asap... <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I'm sorry, I hate to sound like I'm insulting you, but accusing other folks of playing mystics badly then suggesting that Hazes don't draw aggro?  Yikes - that's pretty 'ironic'.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You must be playing with tanks 10 levels above you or have different Haze spells than me, coz if I Haze early the tanks have to work VERY hard to get aggro off me, not to mention if I Haze individuals in a group...</DIV>

BALTO
02-04-2005, 06:49 PM
<blockquote><hr>Jerhaa wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Spagma wrote:<BR><DIV>Case and point, I was in a group last night with my lvl 20 mystic in TS. We took on some lvl 20 gnolls. The encounter I am referring to here was a pair of lvl 20 gnolls each with ^. My wards were not even lasting 10 seconds for the until the first gnoll went down. On top of that so much damage was bypassing the ward, that the tank was already in the orange. I could not ward and heal fast enough, much less try to debuff. Now everyone in the group was lvl 19 or 20, it should not have been that close. </DIV><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><DIV>Not to be a jerk, but this is a good example of someone saying Mystic's are poor healers, because they are not playing them corectly.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>If you are not debuffing the mobs, you are shooting yourself in the foot. Also are all your spells app3 or better? Was the tank 19? 20 is a hallmark level. The difference between a 19 tank and a 20 mob is a lot bigger then a 18 tank and a 19 mob. I forget the name of the debuffs at lvl 20, but you should have a haze one and another one. Make sure you land them on both mobs. They don't draw agro, so thow then asap. Also hit each mob with 1 before you apply the second. Stacked while effective enough to be worth doing, does not mitigate damage as well as 1 buff on each mob. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>So for an example, if I was the healer in this group:</DIV><DIV>Ward the Tank. Make sure the tank draws with a ranged spell. The second you see the tank start his pull animation, fire your first debuff. Click on the other mob, use the other debuff (so you don't have to wait on timers). Re-Ward the tank, even if the ward has not fallen. Over using your wards is a lot more mana efficient then having to throw a heal. Debuff each mob with the debuff that's not on them. Now you shoudl have 2 debuffs on each mob, and at my level, I am done. Sit back and watch the show.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>At 20 it probably does not work as well, but this would be a good start.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Also if you had a full group, your Fury should have been helping out. No need to make it harder then it needs to be.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Heh...dont think he's ever been caught in a heal chain, that leaves you no time to cast a slow...your to busy cyclen thru every ward/heal to just keep the tank from purple health....i cry EVAC, when i see myselfwith 20mn left an tank still in red. Cuz i been down that road to many times, an thats even wtih a etra healer in group at times, not always but at times.as for not draw'n agro...heh, i can some times not even cast one spell, an them mobs will just maul me up some. an when i do get agro, i just pray that the extra healer will heal me, cuz if i go into a self heal/ward cycle, its over when the hate reduce'n spell fails (oh nice to say at least i have 900 seconds only to wait to use that again), and i become shaman tank, cuz nothing but a evac will pull that mob off me...and once the goblin even hitched a ride with us, it was so dead set to killn me.experienced shaman in both defiler and mystic...i just love the class, but yes we are sony's unwanted step children.look, in 500 years we forgot how to cast haste... our pet dog died, an we're still grieven over it. our upgrades some times have no change what so ever that i could calculate. Form of the builder, is a friqn beaver....oh if i had a copper for everytime i heard "who wants to shave the beaver"...spell descript says your target will become a beaver, but it never does, its self only....alot of utility spells 900 second timer, an the fear is only good for a short number of lvls after it, before its useless, an it was useless to start, if it worked it was 1-2 seconds if that, longest was 5 that i could recall. buffs dont stack well or right with eachother, i know a few will say why stack em...well i was curious on diffrent strategies, especially if i ever happend to group with more than one shaman class. badger stacks with its upgrade only in the ac...umm to me thats silly, either make it unable to be cast or free up the other caps so it can stack right. food/drink heh...best to starve an die of thirst from my last tests on it...should go up with us in lvl like the other util spells. an dont even go into i dont know how to use my mystic/defiler excuse lol... people must've /friends me, when i log in, /tell hell kicks in request'n my services for their quests....cuz seems miracles happen when everything becomes red, and im group'd with my shaman's.but ya, two resis in a row, if your lucky to cast that many debuffs, before ya go into the short lived heal cycle...sucks, get agro an just had it with in 900 seconds, hope ya remembered to stone' the others before ya started.as for upgraden spells....heh, not sure how its on the other servers, but ppl are price gougen the hell outa our market...even started down the road of sage to stop pay'n over a GP for a spell that will be grey'd out in 10 lvls...and app2's become hell'a expensive coin sink, when added to everything else (but thats pretty common of a gripe for all of our class choices) its just when i fork out gps' for a app2 an only see 5 point diffrence...heh....even worse when finally craft'n that app4 an then test'n it against the app1 - app3 lines...sad, most app 4's as of last month didnt even have a single change from app3, other than price. oh an scriben with out roll'n up your own woodworker/chemist thats for a whole other forum, heh. sages are bunk, cant create one thing others need with out consulting at least the other 2 trades.were a great class, wont say no to that. but does seem to be riden the edge of luck alot of times, to avoid a fast mana drain'n heal loop...ps bring back the 9 gem slots for most spells max to cast at once, cuz this 5 slots for concentrations a joke. and who ever came up with maken it so we can only see a limited amount of currnet sustained spells, and why in the hell do we have to recast sow on zone overs....dam silly an time waste to recast it 5/6 times.an why is our bear form the same as the 1st...and with a [FaarNerfed!] so big that ya can hide 5 gnomes and a halfling in.oh well /rant off/flame on

Spag
02-04-2005, 08:16 PM
<DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Jerhaa,</DIV> <DIV>    I must say that was a very offensive post, and although you say you were not trying to be a jerk, you ended up being so much more.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you read through my post you would have realized your comment was out of place.  I mentioned my ward was not staying up on the tank long enought to do anything else.  The encounter was: ward before pull, ward on return from pull since it was gone by the time he got back, heal, ward heal ward heal ward heal heal ward for the first 40 seconds of the encounter.  I did not have maybe a single second after the tank returned where I was not casting that whole time.  Since our debuffs are not insticast, you tell me when I could have possibly squeezed one in.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now I realize that that lvl 20 mobs hit harder, and yes my tank was a lvl 19.  But that did not seem to have an affect on the Fury.  Note my wards are Adept 1, as I have not had a chance to get any adept 3 as they are expensive, and I have not found a single rare component in all my harvesting.  If I need Adept 3 to be affective on mobs that are my same exact level then there is something that is absolutely wrong.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was absolutly surprised at the ineffectiveness of my wards.  This was my point, this was my proof.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The next time you disagree with someone you should stray away from insulting them atleast until you have a full understanding of the problem.  In reading your previous posts, I had originally felt that you were honestly disputing a problem.  I now feel you are just attempting to flame and incite aggravation.  You have lost respect on this board, and I am sure I am not the only one that feels this way.</DIV></DIV></DIV>

Banditman
02-04-2005, 08:40 PM
<DIV>Jerhaa has clearly not been paying attention around here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>He hasn't yet realized that his debuffs aren't really doing anything unless the mobs are blue or less to the tank.  He hasn't realized that in fact his Wards are in fact less efficient than direct healing once tanks reach that magic 50% mitigation, which they should do in their early to mid 20's.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's ok.  His character works for him, and once again, for those people, good on ya.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But, insulting every Mystic who reads these forums in a single post . . . that's bloody impressive.  I've not yet managed it, and that's saying something.</DIV>

Wolfherz
02-05-2005, 02:52 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR> <DIV>Jerhaa has clearly not been paying attention around here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>He hasn't yet realized that his debuffs aren't really doing anything unless the mobs are blue or less to the tank. </FONT> He hasn't realized that in fact his Wards are in fact less efficient than direct healing once tanks reach that magic 50% mitigation, which they should do in their early to mid 20's.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's ok.  His character works for him, and once again, for those people, good on ya.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But, insulting every Mystic who reads these forums in a single post . . . that's bloody impressive.  I've not yet managed it, and that's saying something.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Sorry, I missed your proof for that. And of course as usually I wholeheartedly disagree. Our debuffs in my experience lower the effective level of an NPC by 2 levels, which can make a dramatic difference in the outcome.</P> <P>I don't have the time to make all the logs Bantidman needs so I can only bring up examples: like my group of regular 5 (Berserker 37, Mystic 37, Swashbuckler 37, Warlock 36, Templar 34 at that time) killed the Ancient Watcher (33). I <STRONG>firmly</STRONG> believe that this would have been impossible without the debuffs. (we did not use the Arcane Chalice once btw.)</P><p>Message Edited by Wolfherz on <span class=date_text>02-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:02 PM</span>

Noosehunt
02-05-2005, 03:05 AM
I must not be playing my mystic correctly. Maybe that's why I'm enjoying my conjuror more now. Besides, I can heal my pet fine without any wards.-NH

Spag
02-05-2005, 06:10 AM
<DIV>Wolfherz</DIV> <DIV>    So how did your wards do, or did you not even bother?</DIV>

Spag
02-05-2005, 06:22 AM
<DIV>One other thing wolf, I dont know who the Ancient watcher is as I am not to that level, but I sure hope he was a ^ ^ ^ groupx2 or something, otherwise you are not saying very much.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If not, then congrats on killing a mob a few levels below you.  Besides, I do believe you are backing Bandits point, the debuffs do well on mobs that are lower level than you, and even better on single (group con) mobs.  You only have to worry about debuffing one mob , then you can focus on healing and casting paper thin wards.   From the information you gave, this exactly fits the best case scenario for the debuffs.   Unless of course you left out some information, if so please explain.  </DIV>

Mystiq
02-05-2005, 06:31 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Spagma wrote:<BR> <DIV>One other thing wolf, I dont know who the Ancient watcher is as I am not to that level, but I sure hope he was a ^ ^ ^ groupx2 or something, otherwise you are not saying very much.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If not, then congrats on killing a mob a few levels below you.  Besides, I do believe you are backing Bandits point, the debuffs do well on mobs that are lower level than you, and even better on single (group con) mobs.  You only have to worry about debuffing one mob , then you can focus on healing and casting paper thin wards.   From the information you gave, this exactly fits the best case scenario for the debuffs.   Unless of course you left out some information, if so please explain.  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>The Ancient Watcher is the named guy at the end of the Condemned Catacombs dungeon, and he is indeed one bad mofo. I killed him with a group of 4, all lvl 50, and it took a good while. If it had managed to land any spells or specials on the tank, he would have given us a run for our money. </P> <P> </P>

Banditman
02-07-2005, 07:14 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wolfherz wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>Sorry, I missed your proof for that. And of course as usually I wholeheartedly disagree. Our debuffs in my experience lower the effective level of an NPC by 2 levels, which can make a dramatic difference in the outcome.</P> <P>I don't have the time to make all the logs Bantidman needs so I can only bring up examples: like my group of regular 5 (Berserker 37, Mystic 37, Swashbuckler 37, Warlock 36, Templar 34 at that time) killed the Ancient Watcher (33). I <STRONG>firmly</STRONG> believe that this would have been impossible without the debuffs. (we did not use the Arcane Chalice once btw.)</P> <P>Message Edited by Wolfherz on <SPAN class=date_text>02-04-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:02 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Read the threads titled "By the numbers" (both parts) in the Shaman forums.  They deal with numerical proof.  Part 2 clearly shows that against mobs that con lower, debuffs can castrate their standard melee DPS.  So, in your case, taking a mob that already stands 4-6 levels below your tank, yes, debuffs can make a difference.  Take a tank in that even cons the Ancient Watcher and we'll talk.  (After you work off your debt of course).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The fact that you didn't need to complete Arcane Chalice to do this only makes the point stronger.  I do so like it when people who think they disagree with me make my point for me.  It's quite helpful.</DIV>

Wolfherz
02-07-2005, 10:56 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wolfherz wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>Sorry, I missed your proof for that. And of course as usually I wholeheartedly disagree. Our debuffs in my experience lower the effective level of an NPC by 2 levels, which can make a dramatic difference in the outcome.</P> <P>I don't have the time to make all the logs Bantidman needs so I can only bring up examples: like my group of regular 5 (Berserker 37, Mystic 37, Swashbuckler 37, Warlock 36, Templar 34 at that time) killed the Ancient Watcher (33). I <STRONG>firmly</STRONG> believe that this would have been impossible without the debuffs. (we did not use the Arcane Chalice once btw.)</P> <P>Message Edited by Wolfherz on <SPAN class=date_text>02-04-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:02 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Read the threads titled "By the numbers" (both parts) in the Shaman forums.  They deal with numerical proof.  Part 2 clearly shows that against mobs that con lower, debuffs can castrate their standard melee DPS.  So, in your case, taking a mob that already stands 4-6 levels below your tank, yes, debuffs can make a difference.  Take a tank in that even cons the Ancient Watcher and we'll talk.  (After you work off your debt of course).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The fact that you didn't need to complete Arcane Chalice to do this only makes the point stronger.  I do so like it when people who think they disagree with me make my point for me.  It's quite helpful.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Yet again I have to admit that my example wasn't the best. Altho the Ancient Watcher definitely is not your usual level 33 groups 2x mob. I have soloed the group 2x mobs in Zek near the first mill when they were still green to me, but the Ancient Watcher was on a completely different level. I have also read your 2 postings because I greatly appreciate your effort but they have lots of holes. For instance do you use yourself as test object. You also implying that the defensive and attack capablities are growing linear. From my experience there are several "comfort" zones when we tank (melee group-mobs only): </P> <UL> <LI>4 or more levels below his level barely scratch my tank</LI> <LI>3 - 2 levels below - doable by just healing</LI> <LI>1 below to even - tough fight need everything we got to win fight as duo</LI> <LI>above that - not sustainable as duo, need more dps to shorten the fight</LI></UL> <P>This pattern is <STRONG>NOT</STRONG> linear. Debuffing the mobs brings them down by 1-2 levels and subsequentially there is a strong potential that they fall in a lower zone and become more easier to handle.</P>

Banditman
02-08-2005, 12:03 AM
<DIV>Neither of those posts care about the target of the mob.  They are merely a measure of the mob, not of the mobs target.  They got the baseline of the mob, then looked at the difference between baseline and debuffed to arrive at a conclusion.  Regardless of whether that baseline is "X" or the baseline is "Y", the change is the same.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Keening Haze does in fact debuff the attack capabilities of the mob.  However, as the mob gets closer in con to it's target, KH has diminishing returns.  Yes, against mobs who are already below the level of the person tanking them, KH can castrate the mob.  However, when the mob is even con or more, KH makes only a marginal difference in DPS since it only impacts the mobs standard melee damage.  If you want to do anything about the damage coming from Combat Arts, Specials and Spells you need an Enchanter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Wolfherz
02-08-2005, 12:10 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR> <DIV>Neither of those posts care about the target of the mob.  They are merely a measure of the mob, not of the mobs target.  They got the baseline of the mob, then looked at the difference between baseline and debuffed to arrive at a conclusion.  Regardless of whether that baseline is "X" or the baseline is "Y", the change is the same.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Keening Haze does in fact debuff the attack capabilities of the mob.  However, as the mob gets closer in con to it's target, KH has diminishing returns.  Yes, against mobs who are already below the level of the person tanking them, KH can castrate the mob.  However, when the mob is even con or more, KH makes only a marginal difference in DPS since it only impacts the mobs standard melee damage.  If you want to do anything about the damage coming from Combat Arts, Specials and Spells you need an Enchanter.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Its not just Keening Haze but Fallacy as well. I actually think Fallacy is more important because it reduces Strength dramatically.<BR>

Banditman
02-08-2005, 12:24 AM
<DIV>What level do we get Group Fallacy at again?  How about Group Keening Haze?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know, we don't.  That's kinda the point.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All that aside, I'd love to see someone show me a couple logs of Fallacy being used as I used Delusion in the "By the numbers" posts.  The method is simple, find a yellow solo con mob, drain it of power, establish a baseline over 3 minutes, chain Fallacy for 3 minutes and compare.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Wolfherz
02-08-2005, 12:51 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR> <DIV>What level do we get Group Fallacy at again?  How about Group Keening Haze?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know, we don't.  That's kinda the point.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All that aside, I'd love to see someone show me a couple logs of Fallacy being used as I used Delusion in the "By the numbers" posts.  The method is simple, find a yellow solo con mob, drain it of power, establish a baseline over 3 minutes, chain Fallacy for 3 minutes and compare.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I am not sure at all how valid solo mobs are for testing purposes. Yellow solo mobs barely scratches my tank, while yellow group mobs wipe the floor with him (if he'd try to solo them). I think a good insight would be to find out by how much Delusion/Fallacy reduces Strength. One could find shaman NPCs and have them debuff the tank. The neophyt lizards in Feerrott for instance.</P> <P>As for the Group spells - Ctrl + Tab (targets next encounter member) is your friend. You can if need be cycle very quickly thru a moderate sized group and debuff them. Also keep in mind the more members an encounter has the weaker each individual so for larger sized encounters you wouldnt want to debuff at all but rather quickly reduce the number.</P> <DIV></FONT></DIV>

Wolfherz
02-08-2005, 12:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE>Grr. Double Post.</BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV></FONT></DIV><p>Message Edited by Wolfherz on <span class=date_text>02-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:51 AM</span>

Spag
02-08-2005, 01:04 AM
<DIV>Wolf, you are still looking at about 30 seconds in before you can debuff the third mob in a group, if you dont get any resists, and use one debuff per mob, and no wards or heals in between.  For most of the fights it is 1/3 to 1/2 the fight.  Not to mention the extra power being spent to get those mobs debuffed.  Then you have to heal the damage your tank took because your ward has been down for 15-20 seconds, and the time and power it burns to do so.  All this to be almost equal?  Where do I sign up?</DIV>

Wolfherz
02-08-2005, 01:47 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Spagma wrote:<BR> <DIV>Wolf, you are still looking at about 30 seconds in before you can debuff the third mob in a group, if you dont get any resists, and use one debuff per mob, and no wards or heals in between.  For most of the fights it is 1/3 to 1/2 the fight.  Not to mention the extra power being spent to get those mobs debuffed.  Then you have to heal the damage your tank took because your ward has been down for 15-20 seconds, and the time and power it burns to do so.  All this to be almost equal?  Where do I sign up?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <UL> <LI>I never said that you have to debuff everything. I am merely insisting that debuffing is a valid tool in our arsenal and its use is situational.</LI> <LI>While the recycle time for debuffs might be 30 sec, the casting time is certainly not, i.e. you could cast wards/heals on your tank in between. if your tank does a good job and holds aggro for the whole encounter you dont even have to re-target.</LI> <LI>Fallacy costs 33 power, Howling Haze costs 40. If thats a problem for you then that's another issue.</LI> <LI>If we talking about a 1 min fight I probably wouldn't bother to use debuffs besides the group debuffs. The damage we can add instead probably has a much greater effect.</LI></UL> <P> </P> <P> </P>

Banditman
02-08-2005, 02:20 AM
<DIV>Wolf, the point isn't how much damage the tank takes.  Stop looking at the tank!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>YOU can do this, you don't need a tank.  You are simply trying to evaluate the delta from control to experimental.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The delta is what we are trying to find, it doesn't matter if your control data is a Guardian or Mystic, so long as the experimental data is done on the same subjects.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>STR reducing debuffs manifest themselves in game as a reduced number of hits, they do not "appear" to reduce the average hit.  I can explain why if you like, or you can take my word for it.  Either way, the entire Delusion line upward does the same thing.  Regardless of whether the mob is swinging at a Guardian or a Mystic, if he is debuffed with something in the Delusion line, he will appear to miss more.  By taking the baseline first, then comparing to the experimental (debuffed) data, you can get the change in hit / miss ratio, which is how you view the effects.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All you want to find out is what percentage of blows miss when a Delusion line debuff is in place versus a mob who has no debuffs applied.</DIV>

Wolfherz
02-08-2005, 03:01 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR> <DIV>Wolf, the point isn't how much damage the tank takes.  Stop looking at the tank!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>YOU can do this, you don't need a tank.  You are simply trying to evaluate the delta from control to experimental.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The delta is what we are trying to find, it doesn't matter if your control data is a Guardian or Mystic, so long as the experimental data is done on the same subjects.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>STR reducing debuffs manifest themselves in game as a reduced number of hits, they do not "appear" to reduce the average hit.  I can explain why if you like, or you can take my word for it.  Either way, the entire Delusion line upward does the same thing.  Regardless of whether the mob is swinging at a Guardian or a Mystic, if he is debuffed with something in the Delusion line, he will appear to miss more.  By taking the baseline first, then comparing to the experimental (debuffed) data, you can get the change in hit / miss ratio, which is how you view the effects.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All you want to find out is what percentage of blows miss when a Delusion line debuff is in place versus a mob who has no debuffs applied.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I won't stop looking at the tank because thats what matters in 99% of the cases. It does not really matter how good the Mystic can tank.</P> <P>You are implying that the data gained from a Mystic tanking are relevant for a tank tanking and I doubt that. As I pointed out in a post above lowering a mob via debuffing from an even con to a light blue makes a huge different for a tank but wont make the slightest difference for a Mystic who still get beaten up badly. I know for a fact that if we debuff on a blue mob, which hits the tank relativly hard, it will stop hitting me at all because his attack value is shifted to the range where mobs cannot hit the tank anymore.</P> <P>I somewhat doubt that Strength does not affect the max damage nor the damage spread. Another interesting test would be if Strength does affect the outcome of combat arts.<BR></P>

RiotSioZ
02-08-2005, 11:29 PM
<DIV>The problem you get when you look at the tank is that tanks fluctuate greatly where as a type of mob does not.  What happens to a mob when it is debuffed will be consistent for any and all Shaman debuffing them.  No matter what tank you have the resulting ability of the mob will be the same each time it is debuffed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Each tank will then handle it differently because of level versus the mob, HP, AC, stats, etc.  But no matter what the tanks ability the debuffed mob will behave the same way.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is why it is important to see what exact effect the debuffs have on the mob.  If it is determined what all the applied debuffs do the results can be used to apply to almost every mob.  Simplistically put, If the result is that the debuffs lower the mob level by 2 then it can be determined what effect the mob will have given what a mob of that (altered -2) level would do to a particular tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>By testing what one mob does versus tank 1 and what that same mob does versus tank 2 helps determine the difference between the two tanks not what happened to the mob due to debuffs.  And we want to know the effect on the mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Granted the reality of play is that you want to know what will happen to your tank...it is very tank centric; however, by fully analyzing what the debuffs do the results can be applied to all mobs for all tanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The point isn't how much damage one tank takes, or how much a different tank takes.  What matters is how the mob acts before and after debuff to whomever it is targeting.  A tank, healer, scout, or mage can all be a sufficient test case because the real data that carries over is the data from the difference in the mob.</DIV><p>Message Edited by RiotSioZon on <span class=date_text>02-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:31 AM</span>

Banditman
02-10-2005, 01:44 AM
<DIV>Exactly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You want to know what each spell is doing to the mob, not the end effect of the tank.  Looking at the effect to the tank is like trying to back into the answer.  You have to baseline the mob, debuff and re-test.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here's an amusing little example:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let's say you have an basket of eggs and a basket of steel ball bearings that weigh the same amount.  You attach an invisible parachute in an attempt to determine how helpful this parachute might be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, you attach the parachute to the ball bearings and drop.  Lo and behold, they survive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Feeling good about the parachute, you attach the eggs and drop.  Splat.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Question:  How effective was the parachute?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Answer:  You don't have enough data to answer the question because you only have the end results.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In order to find out how effective the parachute is, you need to drop either basket twice.  Once without the parachute and measure it's velocity before impact   Drop again with the parachute and measure the velocity before impact.  It doesn't matter which one, because the end result isn't what you are trying to measure.  You need to measure the effect of the parachute itself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Wolfherz
02-10-2005, 02:00 AM
<DIV>How about this theoretical example:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>NPC attack value == 1000.</DIV> <UL> <LI>PC AC value > NPC attack value + 200 ... NPC cannot hit PC</LI> <LI>PC AC value < NPC attack value - 200 ... NPC always hits PC</LI></UL> <P>Tank AC value == 1000</P> <P>Mystic AC value == 600</P> <P>Mystic Debuff reduces NPC attack value by 300.</P> <P>Result:</P> <UL> <LI>Mystic is still getting hit for full damage</LI> <LI>Tank is getting hit for no damage</LI></UL> <P> </P>

RiotSioZ
02-11-2005, 03:57 AM
<DIV>A theoretical example, or not, one assumption we must make is that SoE did not make buffs and debuffs that flat for progression.  There must be some linear progression even if not perfectly linear.  Making such a vertical limit for when something affects a character would damage a good portion of the game.  So let me modify your example a little bit to demonstrate why testing the buffs independent of character is still very worthwhile.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Modifying your theoretical example:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>a. Mob does 50 damage to tank (either over a period of time or per hit...it doesn't matter)</DIV> <DIV>b. Mob does 100 damage to mystic (same as above)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>debuffed:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>a. Mob does 45 damage to tank</DIV> <DIV>b. Mob does whatever amount less than 100 to mystic depending on if debuffs are more effective with a better or worse tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The main thing is that we need a before and after shot.  It doesn't matter what tank provides the before and after as long as it is the same tank.  Then getting a multitude of tanks and getting before and after shots of them would help us refine the data.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No matter how particularly useful a debuff is versus the tank taking the damage we 'should' notice a decline in damage taken by a player after debuffs have been placed on the mob.  This lessening of damage could be in amount of landed hits (accuracy), less hits due to fewer swings (slowed), lowering of per hit damage (weakened), etc.  There are many ways to reduce damage, but every debuff should affect one of them.  Regardless of a mobs ability no debuff should be useless or we have other problems.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The point again is that we want to find out the effect of the debuffs not how well a tank with almost infinitely varying stats, skills, and variations of armor and weapons does.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The test that shows how well debuffs do for tanks versus non tanks would be a good test.  It will be nice to know at some point if say our debuffs have an added bonus of helping a not very good tank versus helping a very good tank (or vise versa), but first we need to get a good handle on what the debuffs do in general.  This is player independent.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The player tanking, as I said, will be the person most affected overall, but for a test like this it is irrelevant what character performs the test.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The test (and data that Banditman has been gathering currently *even note by the numbers III*) is to determine actual numbers for what a debuff does.  It is the debuff getting tested not the tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And while your theoretical example does point out a very potential flaw, it also points out something that would cripple the game.  Very defined cut off points where a mob goes from a danger to none at all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If we actually have the specific points that are not level dependant then all we would have to say is, debuff or not get X amount of AC (be it 1k, 2k, 5k etc.) and you will be immune to melee damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are many different tests to be done, but the one being used currently, because it applies to EVERYONE, is what buffs do in general.  What they do for my groups tank is cool, but I want to know what they will be doing for any tank as I am likely to be assisting more than one over the course of my Mystic's career.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Does that make sense?</DIV><p>Message Edited by RiotSioZon on <span class=date_text>02-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:04 PM</span>

Banditman
02-11-2005, 07:04 PM
<DIV>My second by the numbers post addressed the lower edge of this equation.  Against a mob that is already struggling to hit, yes, debuffs can push it over the edge.  I showed this information.  Those however are not the situations where anyone even cares about using a debuff.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After testing many mobs of various con levels I found that a yellow con mob is right at the point where debuffs start to drastically drop off in effectiveness.  It seems like a sliding scale that gets smaller and smaller as the mob gets stronger.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Further, as mobs become stronger, above and beyond yellow cons, debuffs begin to become less and less reliable due to resist rate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hey, look, I cast these spells every night in my group.  They do help a little.  I simply want people to realize that they are not encounter changing in 99% of the engages they see.  You may "think" that they are, but I can tell you with statistical certainty that it was other actions which either won or lost the encounter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Next time you look down the barrel of Emporer Fyst's gun, ask yourself:  Would I rather have Wards and Slow or a Reactive heal ?</DIV>

BALTO
02-17-2005, 10:31 PM
we arnt just underpowered, but after reading an testing today's fix's/patch's/bs'n by soe...i...i..i still feel like im loved as much as a red headed step child...class.DPS of course isnt our main form...but its a sorryful number (even with the broken haste ring)DEBUFFS, even in the 40's, if ya have a cleric class with ya, not really needed, saves cleric 20-40% power.WARDS...heh....BUFFS that us concentration...why...its always the same standard 4+bear form, an the rare occasion that ya do groupwith another mystic, heh omen/auspice which is a sorryful increase...spirtist water ... wee a upgrade to defense, no matter what app/adept of just forgot 3 pts.DOTS dont stack, with self or with other mystics....sure other class spells ahve same issuereadin the devolepers plans for our future...heh, glad im not pay'n to play, but will be leaven, seen as my sponsosers have quit now...WOOT, thnx SOE for maken SWG II, of a game.

Jerh
02-23-2005, 02:36 AM
<DIV>Hello all,</DIV> <DIV><BR>I have been gone for a while. From the last time I was here I have gone on a 10 day cruse, and also started a Warden to see what all the fuss was about. My Warden is level 26 now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Before I go into any comparisons of the classes, I would like to address some replies.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Spagma,<BR>I didn't mean to incite a flame. I spent a lot of time in my reply explaining how I would of approached the same situation. In it, I state you should throw a debuff at the same time as he pulls (even if this means following him to the mob). With this method, before he takes 1 point of damage, the mob should at least have 1 debuff on it. Your claim there is no way to even land 1 debuff. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, it's not your job to make sure the tank is in the green, it's your job to make sure the tank doesn't die. It sounds like you chain healing so he stays toped off. Let him take some hits while you debuff. He is a tank, he has his own skills to mitigate damage as well. He is not just a dumb pool of hit points.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Banditman,<BR>You say my reply insulted everyone on this board, but at the time of this reply, the post you are referring to has 5 stars next to it. It seems some of the Mystics around here agree with me.</DIV> <DIV>Additionally, if I was the lone rough in a sea of like minded thinkers, this thread would not have 137 replies.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR>All that being said, I would now like to report on my finding now that I have played both a Warden and a Mystic.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The primary role of a healer is to keep the party alive, and I still feel to an extent a Mystic can do that as well, but I feel the Warden is a better character all around. The reason is not because he is a better healer, but due to that fact that he can do it with so fewer spells, he is available to do other things. When I play my mystic, 100% of my time is devoted to keeping the party alive. When I play my warden, I cast a few HOT's and can attack. Also, when we were in the ToV, I could play solo healer and had time to run around and make sure the coffins were closed. With my Mystic, I would have had to stay with the group more. Against groups of mobs there is no doubt a Warden is better, but even I have said this from the start. Against single group mobs (white or lower), I still think the Mystic is better. But, a Warden, even though he is not as effective, is still VERY effective. Much more so then a Mystic is when put in situations where he is not suited.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, this is my last post to this thread, and my guess is from now on I will be playing my Warden. Not because I think he is a better healer, just because I think he is more fun to play. I have time to do more things with him, and he is a very effective soloer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A few caveats on my experience.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Obviously when I started my Warden I understood the game dynamics better, so that made the class easier to pick up. For example, I understand how hate works, and the general concepts of healing in EQ2. This made for a much easier time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The game is easier today then it was when it first came out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I had unlimited funds the second time around (well, unlimited to a low level char). I think I have spent over 50 gold on spells and gear, so this char has been better equipped along the way.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Good luck to you all, and above all, have fun! I mean, it's just a game <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></DIV>

Spag
02-23-2005, 07:48 PM
<DIV>I am glad to see you are liking your new character.  You said it yourself you are having more fun, because you have more time to do other things.  This is because you are not chain warding or healing to get the job done.  This is because your HoT is twice as effective as your wards used to be.  This is also because you dont have to try to keep the mob debuffed to help reduce the amount of incoming damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I probably should have re-rolled as well, but i just spent almost 30g on getting 2 adept3 wards and an adept3 healing ritual.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>