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Sens
01-18-2005, 12:33 AM
<DIV>What's the point then?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Both our wards and the templars reactive heals have timers on them. The real problem is how much total capability they have, regardless of whether they are cast on a guardian or a monk.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Sens on <span class=date_text>01-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:35 AM</span>

Ender
01-18-2005, 01:15 AM
Good question. As a Templar and a Defiler, I will explain this to you.For Monk:1. Monks will get hit very hard, much harder than plate armor classes, due to lower AC.2. The ward will absorb the full amount of that hit. The reactive will heal only a fraction of that hit, thus forcing the cleric to cast an instant heal to make up for what the monk had before. 3. The reactive effect+instant heal is more inefficient than simply casting a ward and since the monk won't get hit that much anyway, the reactives are wasted.For Armored Tank:1. Tank won't get hit as hard.2. The ward will absorb the full amount of each hit, except the tank will get hit MORE than the monk and ward doesn't take AC into account. The reactive takes the AC into account, and heals the tank. Since the tank didn't get hit that hard, the heal applies very well. 3. The reactive effect is more efficient than ward for this situation.Both reactives and wards are used when the tank gets hit.<p>Message Edited by EnderMX on <span class=date_text>01-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:22 PM</span>

re
01-18-2005, 02:36 AM
<DIV>yep that's the key.  The ward is to take care of the rare but big hit on the evade tanks, which is amplfied even more when doved tailed with our debuffs.  A mystic debuffed mob with an evade tank will hardly ever land a hit, but when it does, the ward is the spell perfectly suited to that situation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I nearly always run with a swashbuckler as our group's main tank and we do great.</DIV>

Sens
01-18-2005, 03:19 AM
<DIV>I fully understand the differences between the types of tanks and why people think wards are tuned to be better with one versus the other.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just don't buy it... it seems like one of those, "it's not a bug, it's a feature" statements that programmers make with a grin on their face... and everyone here seems to be buying it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Good for the programmer because he gets to go home and have a cold one while he laughs at us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At the end of the day, I find myself less effective than the templar I group with. Even when I'm using both the 20 and 30 training versions of the debuffs (which I swear aren't doing anything).</DIV>

Ender
01-18-2005, 03:35 AM
Hmmm lemme guess your tank was a heavy plate wearing tank right? Ok...no wonder templars were more efficient. It's too bad there aren't many brawler tanks around. Btw, brawler tanks don't get good until lvl 40+ so don't expect immediate results. At lvl 40+, the brawler tank, with agility buffs will almost NEVER get hit.Personally, I'm having alot more fun with my defiler than with my templar. Alot more damage, alot more debuffs, and I'm never bored. For templar, I just cast the same 2-3 spells over and over again.<p>Message Edited by EnderMX on <span class=date_text>01-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:39 PM</span>

re
01-18-2005, 08:03 AM
<DIV>I don't know what there isn't to buy sens?  Its a simple mechanic that's easy to understand.  Evade tanks tank by avoiding being hit, the shaman debuffs amplify their ability to avoid being hit and the ward is the perfect stop gap for when they do get hit.  Regens and reactives don't give back anywhere near the needed hps when an evade tank is hit and end up timing out without doing their job, and they have no ability to prevent death which wards do.  Damage shields are also inffective since the evade tank isn't being hit in the first place.</DIV>

Banditman
01-18-2005, 08:05 PM
<DIV>Our debuffs do very little on mobs that have any sort of ability to hit consistently.</DIV>

Tuetatesu
01-18-2005, 08:34 PM
<DIV>This is how I understand our role as Mystics and using Ward... Tank or Monk, it all works the same way...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>As coming from the bases of being a Priest, Mystics are protectors of people, but different then a Templar (cleric) who heals, Mystics best tool is to redirect damage in the form or Wards which absorb damage and to add to that we Slow and debuff.  With that said Mystic can be a healer for the group and do just as good as a Templar using different tools and less healing. Now... since Templars are a bit more efficient at heals then Mystics, but Mystics are great damage redirectors, having both in a group is just down right powerful! A Templar Mystic combo in your group is unstoppable.  I think this makes both classes very desirable in groups.<BR><BR>here is an example... <BR>I usually group with my friends and the groups make up is the following... Guardian, Swashbuckler, Monk, Conjurer, Templar, and me Mystic. There have been several heated battles usually fighting Orange MOB's with double ^^ up arrows (up arrows means the MOB is harder then the con color btw) where the Guardian tanking would take large... no HUGE amounts of damage per hit. And thats NOT because his armor is lacking, were fighting something over our heads.  The damage is to the point that the Templar is fan casting heals but still the health is making backward progress. If I did not stop the backward progress of the health by fan casting wards to absorb the damage and tossing in a heal every once in a while there would be no way the Templar could keep up with heals and our Guardian would be dead as well as the rest of the group to follow. To try and put things in perspective the Mystics first Ward upgraded to Apprentice 3 sucks up just over 400HP in damage. Ward stops backward health progress dead cold! <BR><BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>Bottom line is the Mystic stops this from happening with using Ward!!! No more CCH!!! <BR>see this funny flash movie... hehe... Templars today without Mystics... </FONT><A href="http://home.att.ne.jp/surf/mirage/agent_sinzan_2.html " target=_blank><FONT size=3>http://home.att.ne.jp/surf/mirage/agent_sinzan_2.html </FONT></A><FONT size=3> </FONT></DIV>

re
01-18-2005, 11:25 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR> <DIV>Our debuffs do very little on mobs that have any sort of ability to hit consistently.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> what do you mean by that bandiman?  My debuffs are extrememly effective at curtailing a mob's ability to hit that is significantly higher con than our group.

Spag
01-19-2005, 01:23 AM
<DIV>I may be wrong, but I believe he is referring non melee mobs.</DIV>

Banditman
01-19-2005, 02:55 AM
<DIV>I did a fairly in depth analysis ( <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=18&message.id=1748" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=18&message.id=1748</A>&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> in the Shaman forums of our major debuffs - Keening Haze and Delusion, and another on Wards ( <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=18&message.id=1444" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=18&message.id=1444</A>&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just as a Cleric should not be forced to wait for a Guardian to tank for him, a Shaman should not be forced to wait for a Monk to tank for him.  All healing classes should be equally efficient at healing whatever form of tank is in front of them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It simply seems "worse" from the Shaman / Mystic point of view because there are SO many more Guardians (and Zerkers for that matter) than there are Monks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This doesnt even begin to consider the comparison between Guardians and Monks where overall surviveability is concerned.</DIV>

Xran
01-19-2005, 03:32 AM
So suddenly a lot quit playing Guardian, Zerker, Pally and SK ---- and all of them switched to playing Monks and Bruiser.Shall Clerics then ask that their reactive heals be boosted because they can't heal Monks as well as a Shaman's Ward?

disru
01-19-2005, 05:23 AM
Can we really even heal brawlers "better"? I haven't seen any proof of this. Just by thinking it out rationally it seems it would go something like:Ward cast once:monk dodges.monk dodges.monster hits monk's ward for 200 damage.monster hits monk's ward for 180 damage.monk dodges.monster hits monk's ward for 23 damage. ward gone. monk takes 100 damage.monk dodges.monster hits monk for 120 damage.monk dodges.monters hits monk for 100 damage.total damage=320Reactive cast once:monk dodges.monk dodges.monster hits monk for 140. reactive heals 102.monster hits monk for 120. reactive heals 102.monk dodges.monster hits monk for 130. reactive heals 102.monk dodges.monster hits bonk for 120. reactive heals 102.monk dodges.monster hits monk for 100. reactive heals 102. reactive expires.total damage=100This is using spectral ward and bestowal of vitae app 3 as examples because those have been studied before.I gave the monk a 50% avoidance rating (which I do not know if its accurate) based on guardian parsing showing about 50% mitigation, thus making them comparable.I will try to run some actual numbers on this situation in the near future but this hypothetical seems to make sense to me...

re
01-19-2005, 06:24 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR> <DIV> All healing classes should be equally efficient at healing whatever form of tank is in front of them.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>This is the core of your problem.  This is a fallacious statement and because of it your expectations of the game are way off base from what this game is.  That being say, any priest can be an only healer to any tank, while not being as efficient as certain combinations, I've never has trouble being the only healer in a group that is using the various types of tanks this game offers.</P> <P>I've read your anaylsis before, and its flawed.  You can't use yourself as the tank, you are neither a mitiagtion tank or an evade tank, you are the worst of both worlds and can't be expected to be a sutible subject for that analysis.<BR></P> <p>Message Edited by rego on <span class=date_text>01-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:37 PM</span>

re
01-19-2005, 06:33 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> disrupt wrote:<BR>Can we really even heal brawlers "better"? I haven't seen any proof of this. Just by thinking it out rationally it seems it would go something like:<BR><BR>Ward cast once:<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monster hits monk's ward for 200 damage.<BR>monster hits monk's ward for 180 damage.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monster hits monk's ward for 23 damage. ward gone. monk takes 100 damage.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monster hits monk for 120 damage.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monters hits monk for 100 damage.<BR>total damage=320<BR><BR>Reactive cast once:<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monster hits monk for 140. reactive heals 102.<BR>monster hits monk for 120. reactive heals 102.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monster hits monk for 130. reactive heals 102.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monster hits bonk for 120. reactive heals 102.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monster hits monk for 100. reactive heals 102. reactive expires.<BR>total damage=100<BR><BR>This is using spectral ward and bestowal of vitae app 3 as examples because those have been studied before.<BR>I gave the monk a 50% avoidance rating (which I do not know if its accurate) based on guardian parsing showing about 50% mitigation, thus making them comparable.<BR><BR>I will try to run some actual numbers on this situation in the near future but this hypothetical seems to make sense to me...<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>But that's not how a combat with an evade tank would go, it would go more like this:</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Ward cast once:<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monster hits monk's ward for 400 damage.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>total damage=0</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Reactive cast once:<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monster hits monk for 300. reactive heals 102.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monster hits monk for 300. reactive heals 102.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monster hits bonk for 300. reactive heals 102.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monster hits monk for 300. reactive heals 102. reactive expires.<BR>total damage=792<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As I have said countless times before, the mystic debuffs seriously curtail the monster's ability to hit and dovetail perfectly with an evasion tank's powers.  The ward is availible to do full work at anytime the evasion tank takes the odd hit.  Reactives will expire without doing much work which kills their efficiency.</DIV>

bou
01-19-2005, 06:43 AM
Heh.. why not does scenario thenWard cast once:monster applies dot, goes right through ward for x damagemonk dodges.monk dodges.dot ticksmonk dodges.monster hits monk with a special attack for x damage, goes right through wardmonk dodges.monk dodges.dot ticksmonk dodges.monk dodges.monster hits another special attack for another x damage, ward still uselessdot ticksmonk dodges.monk dodges.monk hits but monster riposts, right through ward once againmonk dies and ward still at 100%You cant just make up a story and say "This is how a fight with a monk would be". It's different every time and until you go out and make some logs from actual encounters there is no point in arguing this matter.

disru
01-19-2005, 06:58 AM
Rego:my fights were comparable. 10 rounds, monk dodged 5 times in each senario.in your fights you gave 8 rounds w/ ward with 7 dodges. and 10 rounds with reactive with 5 dodges.Wards do not increase avoidance, so please show me 2 comparable fights in which wards would be superior.<p>Message Edited by disrupt on <span class=date_text>01-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:59 PM</span>

icetower
01-19-2005, 07:06 AM
<DIV>Please explain Rego.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You slam bandits analysis because he isnt a tank, but he is attempting to show how the mystic spells work on the mob, not how the tank takes damage. If you want to show that haze decreases swing rate by x , delusion lowers max hit by x , or ward has x armor class and absorbs y damage from a) regular melee and b) special attacks/spells, why is  the tank itself a relevant variable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You say disrupts hypothetical is not realistic, but use as evidence your own hypothetical which could be equally skewed towards your outcome. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Banditman
01-19-2005, 08:02 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xrande wrote:<BR>So suddenly a lot quit playing Guardian, Zerker, Pally and SK ---- and all of them switched to playing Monks and Bruiser.<BR><BR>Shall Clerics then ask that their reactive heals be boosted because they can't heal Monks as well as a Shaman's Ward?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Absolutely they should!  But that's not my fight.  The promise of balance at the Archtype level says it should be so.</P> <P>However, I think the likelihood of your scenario is probably to the point of statistical irrelevance.  There are, and will always be, a hugely disproportionate number of plate tanks.  Without having access to the databases, my personal observations are that there are approximately 6 plate tank players for every "Monk" type player.</P> <P>I don't want to be efficient and effective in 1 group out of 7, and I don't think other Mystics do either.</P>

Karla
01-19-2005, 09:05 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rego wrote:<BR> <DIV>I don't know what there isn't to buy sens?  Its a simple mechanic that's easy to understand.  Evade tanks tank by avoiding being hit, the shaman debuffs amplify their ability to avoid being hit and the ward is the perfect stop gap for when they do get hit.  Regens and reactives don't give back anywhere near the needed hps when an evade tank is hit and end up timing out without doing their job, and they have no ability to prevent death which wards do.  Damage shields are also inffective since the evade tank isn't being hit in the first place.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> I think what sens is trying to say is this.  When this game was published, it was stated that all healers were to be effective and could be used as a mh.  I.E. they are interchangable.  Since there are more plate tanks than brawlers, most mystics are finding it diffucult to be an effective mh.  Sure if you have a good group of friends who always play together and if they managed to pick the right classes, ya it will work and work well.  But considering most people rely on pick-up groups this can and is a very big problem. 

Karla
01-19-2005, 09:13 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rego wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR> <DIV>Our debuffs do very little on mobs that have any sort of ability to hit consistently.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> what do you mean by that bandiman?  My debuffs are extrememly effective at curtailing a mob's ability to hit that is significantly higher con than our group.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>  Yes it does lower its chance to hit, but it can and is resisted alot.</P><p>Message Edited by Karlace on <span class=date_text>01-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:04 AM</span>

Banditman
01-19-2005, 09:16 PM
<DIV>I tested this exact scenario in my post on the Shaman forums titled By the Numbers, part II</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=18&message.id=1748" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=18&message.id=1748</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It shows exactly what each of our debuffs really do, parsed from in game.</DIV>

Karla
01-19-2005, 09:17 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rego wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR> <DIV> All healing classes should be equally efficient at healing whatever form of tank is in front of them.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>This is the core of your problem.  This is a fallacious statement and because of it your expectations of the game are way off base from what this game is.  That being say, any priest can be an only healer to any tank, while not being as efficient as certain combinations, I've never has trouble being the only healer in a group that is using the various types of tanks this game offers.</P> <P>I've read your anaylsis before, and its flawed.  You can't use yourself as the tank, you are neither a mitiagtion tank or an evade tank, you are the worst of both worlds and can't be expected to be a sutible subject for that analysis.<BR></P> <P>Message Edited by rego on <SPAN class=date_text>01-18-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:37 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>The devs said that all healing classes should be able to be the main healer.  This implies that hte effectiveness should be the same.  Now if the devs said, well all healers can be mh, but do not expect to be an effective healer unless you have such as a tank.  If you want to know the truth i think that certain melee classes especiifically the rogue types are way over powered.  </DIV>

Karla
01-19-2005, 09:22 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rego wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>But that's not how a combat with an evade tank would go, it would go more like this:</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV>Ward cast once:<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monster hits monk's ward for 400 damage.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>total damage=0</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV>Reactive cast once:<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monster hits monk for 300. reactive heals 102.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monster hits monk for 300. reactive heals 102.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monster hits bonk for 300. reactive heals 102.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monster hits monk for 300. reactive heals 102. reactive expires.<BR>total damage=792<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As I have said countless times before, the mystic debuffs seriously curtail the monster's ability to hit and dovetail perfectly with an evasion tank's powers.  The ward is availible to do full work at anytime the evasion tank takes the odd hit.  Reactives will expire without doing much work which kills their efficiency.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I take it you do not have a monk.  I do a level 21 monk.  i know it is not all thaty high, but unless I am fighting green con group mobs I do not evade 7 out of 8 hits.  i may evade 4 or 5 out of 8 hits.  And i have 86 agi unbuffed with all orange gear.  My monk is well above average for his level in stats and equipment.  I do get hit for around 100-250,  I have noticed that clerics have a harder time keeping me healed.  As far as mystic having a debuff that lower chance to hit, that is unproven unless some serious testing is done.  <p>Message Edited by Karlace on <span class=date_text>01-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:05 AM</span>

Karla
01-19-2005, 09:24 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bouek wrote:<BR>Heh.. why not does scenario then<BR><BR>Ward cast once:<BR>monster applies dot, goes right through ward for x damage<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>dot ticks<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monster hits monk with a special attack for x damage, goes right through ward<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>dot ticks<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monster hits another special attack for another x damage, ward still useless<BR>dot ticks<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monk hits but monster riposts, right through ward once again<BR>monk dies and ward still at 100%<BR><BR>You cant just make up a story and say "This is how a fight with a monk would be". It's different every time and until you go out and make some logs from actual encounters there is no point in arguing this matter.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> very true.

Banditman
01-19-2005, 10:00 PM
<DIV>Karlace - Mystics do have a debuff that lowers chance to hit.  I linked you to the post above that explains it.</DIV>

re
01-19-2005, 11:12 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> disrupt wrote:<BR>Rego:<BR><BR>my fights were comparable. 10 rounds, monk dodged 5 times in each senario.<BR><BR>in your fights you gave 8 rounds w/ ward with 7 dodges. and 10 rounds with reactive with 5 dodges.<BR><BR>Wards do not increase avoidance, so please show me 2 comparable fights in which wards would be superior. <P>Message Edited by disrupt on <SPAN class=date_text>01-18-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:59 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> mine include both our slow and offensive power debuffs.

re
01-19-2005, 11:16 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Karlace wrote:<BR><BR><BR> I think what sens is trying to say is this.  When this game was published, it was stated that all healers were to be effective and could be used as a mh.  I.E. they are interchangable.  Since there are more plate tanks than brawlers, most mystics are finding it diffucult to be an effective mh. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>I've never had a problem being an effective mh to any flavor of tank.  I might not being as effective with certain flavors as other priest classes, but neither are they with certain flavors of tanks.  But the bottom line is that I've always been able to do my job and in an effective manner.<BR></P>

re
01-19-2005, 11:27 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Karlace wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>The devs said that all healing classes should be able to be the main healer.  This implies that hte effectiveness should be the same.  <BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>In no way whatsoever does the first imply the second.  What is currently in the game is a system where all priest classes are effective main healers to all  fighter classes.  Now with different kinds of healing and differnet kinds of tanking, some combinations of flavors work great together while others are less effective.  This makes sense and totally satisfies what they devs stated in that FAQ.  I would really be upset if they changed things and made every flavor of healing or tanking vanilla and the only thing seperating priest classes is particle effects, that would be a huge step back but its seems that's what a whole lot of you want for some reason.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> </P> <P>Karlace wrote:<BR><BR></P> <DIV>If you want to know the truth i think that certain melee classes especiifically the rogue types are way over powered.  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>The truth I think is that a whole lot of you want to go back to an EQ1 world with simple, rigidly designed classes and group roles.  Well that's the reason I didn't play EQ1, that's extreamly boring.<BR>

Karla
01-19-2005, 11:34 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR> <DIV>Karlace - Mystics do have a debuff that lowers chance to hit.  I linked you to the post above that explains it.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Ya I edited my post.

Karla
01-19-2005, 11:43 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rego wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Karlace wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>The devs said that all healing classes should be able to be the main healer.  This implies that hte effectiveness should be the same. <BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>In no way whatsoever does the first imply the second.  What is currently in the game is a system where all priest classes are effective main healers to all  fighter classes.  Now with different kinds of healing and differnet kinds of tanking, some combinations of flavors work great together while others are less effective.  This makes sense and totally satisfies what they devs stated in that FAQ.  I would really be upset if they changed things and made every flavor of healing or tanking vanilla and the only thing seperating priest classes is particle effects, that would be a huge step back but its seems that's what a whole lot of you want for some reason.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P></P> <P>Karlace wrote:<BR><BR></P> <DIV>If you want to know the truth i think that certain melee classes especiifically the rogue types are way over powered. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>The truth I think is that a whole lot of you want to go back to an EQ1 world with simple, rigidly designed classes and group roles.  Well that's the reason I didn't play EQ1, that's extreamly boring.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Ok so when the devs stated that : <P><FONT color=#66ff00 size=3>Class balance is always a complicated issue, but the archetype system allows us to manage it much more effectively.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Each class and subclass is balanced at the archetype level.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Every archetype has a main role in a group situation, and each member of a given archetype will be able to fill that role equally well.<SPAN>  </SPAN>If you're a fighter, you can tank for a group; if you're a priest, you can heal for a group; and so on. This is the beauty of an archetype system. </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3>You do not take this to mean that any healer should be able to be effective with any group?  You saw that this meant that only shaman would be effective with avoid tanks and only cleric would be effective with plate tanks and druid would fall in the middle?  If that was the case and you were able to see into the devs minds, then you truely do have hind sight, a 6th sense so speak.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3>The devs did follow that up with this: </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT color=#66ff00>Will there be variety? Of course. Different abilities, spells, combat styles... the whole works. Some classes will be able to do some tasks better than others, but the primary purpose of the class will always be there.</FONT>  </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3>They did state that some classes will be able to do other things better than others, but the primary purpose will be there.  I guess this is where we differ.  And primarly because a clerics and  a druids direct heals are still more potent than a shaman's.  </FONT></P>

disru
01-20-2005, 12:08 AM
<blockquote><hr>rego wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>disrupt wrote:<BR>Rego:<BR><BR>my fights were comparable. 10 rounds, monk dodged 5 times in each senario.<BR><BR>in your fights you gave 8 rounds w/ ward with 7 dodges. and 10 rounds with reactive with 5 dodges.<BR><BR>Wards do not increase avoidance, so please show me 2 comparable fights in which wards would be superior.<P>Message Edited by disrupt on <SPAN class=date_text>01-18-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:59 PM</SPAN><BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>mine include both our slow and offensive power debuffs.<hr></blockquote>This statement supports the "mystics have to spend more power and more effort to be as effective" stance as the debuffs you mentioned are not unresistable, power-free, and instacast.

re
01-20-2005, 01:31 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Karlace wrote:<BR> <BR> Ok so when the devs stated that : <P><FONT color=#66ff00 size=3>Class balance is always a complicated issue, but the archetype system allows us to manage it much more effectively.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Each class and subclass is balanced at the archetype level.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Every archetype has a main role in a group situation, and each member of a given archetype will be able to fill that role equally well.<SPAN>  </SPAN>If you're a fighter, you can tank for a group; if you're a priest, you can heal for a group; and so on. This is the beauty of an archetype system. </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3>You do not take this to mean that any healer should be able to be effective with any group?  You saw that this meant that only shaman would be effective with avoid tanks and only cleric would be effective with plate tanks and druid would fall in the middle?  If that was the case and you were able to see into the devs minds, then you truely do have hind sight, a 6th sense so speak.</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yes I take it to mean that any healer should be able to be effective with any group, and the mystic is, I'm an effective healer to any tank.  That doesn't mean that my abilities don't work better with certain tanks' abilities, they do and there is reason for that, but I'm still effective regardless of the tank.<BR>

re
01-20-2005, 01:33 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> disrupt wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rego wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> disrupt wrote:<BR>Rego:<BR><BR>my fights were comparable. 10 rounds, monk dodged 5 times in each senario.<BR><BR>in your fights you gave 8 rounds w/ ward with 7 dodges. and 10 rounds with reactive with 5 dodges.<BR><BR>Wards do not increase avoidance, so please show me 2 comparable fights in which wards would be superior. <P>Message Edited by disrupt on <SPAN class=date_text>01-18-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:59 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> mine include both our slow and offensive power debuffs.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>This statement supports the "mystics have to spend more power and more effort to be as effective" stance as the debuffs you mentioned are not unresistable, power-free, and instacast.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> yeah but I don't spend my power healing.

leatia
01-20-2005, 04:42 AM
Actually, the whole problem with wards is the following:Ward cast once:monk dodges.monster lands a DOT and hits monk for 67 damage.monk dodges.monster uses a special attack and hits monk for 200 damage.monster hits monk's ward for 180 damage.monk dodges.monster's DOT hits monk for 67 damage.monster uses a special attack and hits monk for 187 damage.monk dodges.monster hits monk's ward for 100 damage.monk dodges.monster's DOT hits monk for 67 damage.monster uses a special attack and hits monk for 193 damage.monk dodges.WARD DROPSmonters hits monk for 100 damage.total monk damage=881Reactive cast once:monk dodges.monster lands a DOT and hits monk for 67 damage, reactive heals for 67(102).monk dodges.monster SPECIAL hits monk for 123 (ac mitigated). reactive heals 102.monster hits monk for 83 (ac mitigated). reactive heals 102.monk dodges.monster lands a DOT and hits monk for 67 damage, reactive heals for 102.monk dodges.monster hits monk for 92 (ac mitigated). reactive heals 102.monk dodges.monster lands a DOT and hits monk for 67 damage, reactive heals for 102.reactive expiresmonster SPECIAL hits monk for 133 (ac mitigated)monk dodges.total monk damage=136

re
01-20-2005, 06:30 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> leatia wrote:<BR>Actually, the whole problem with wards is the following:<BR><BR>Ward cast once:<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monster lands a DOT and hits monk for 67 damage.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monster uses a special attack and hits monk for 200 damage.<BR>monster hits monk's ward for 180 damage.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monster's DOT hits monk for 67 damage.<BR>monster uses a special attack and hits monk for 187 damage.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monster hits monk's ward for 100 damage.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monster's DOT hits monk for 67 damage.<BR>monster uses a special attack and hits monk for 193 damage.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>WARD DROPS<BR>monters hits monk for 100 damage.<BR>total monk damage=881<BR><BR>Reactive cast once:<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monster lands a DOT and hits monk for 67 damage, reactive heals for 67(102).<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monster SPECIAL hits monk for 123 (ac mitigated). reactive heals 102.<BR>monster hits monk for 83 (ac mitigated). reactive heals 102.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monster lands a DOT and hits monk for 67 damage, reactive heals for 102.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monster hits monk for 92 (ac mitigated). reactive heals 102.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monster lands a DOT and hits monk for 67 damage, reactive heals for 102.<BR>reactive expires<BR>monster SPECIAL hits monk for 133 (ac mitigated)<BR>monk dodges.<BR>total monk damage=136<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>ug, that's rediculous.  You have the monk being hit and attacked more in the ward example which is totally unrealistic.  You have to take into account the mystic debuffs that would have the mob attacking the monk less and hitting the monk far less.  How hard is it for people to understand that comparing components of priest classes to eachother is meaningless and fruitless, you have to compare the whole package.  </P> <P>Maybe I'm mistaken and my mystic received debuff spells through some system irregularity and all your mystics don't have these spells, it sure sounds that way the way you talk about this subject.</P><p>Message Edited by rego on <span class=date_text>01-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:31 PM</span>

BigDa
01-20-2005, 04:10 PM
<DIV>Good grief.  You say the same in every thread, Silv, so I'll have a go too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You seem to be happy being more effective with brawlers and less effective with warriors.  Good for you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most of us, however, are not.  In my experience (and most others' it seems), brawlers are rare and I'm often up against grouped high-level mobs.  In these situations, my healing abilities <EM>including the effects of slows and debuffs </EM>are inferior to clerics (and druids to a lesser extent).  I do not like this, and I never will.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Give me a small group against single ^^ greens and a brawler tank and I ROCK.  I know this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Give me a 6-person group with a warrior tank that wants to take on yellow 4 monster groups with the odd ^ or ^^ in them and I SUCK.  I know this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the second example, if I were to take time trying to slow and debuff while keeping wards up everyone will be dead in 30 seconds.  I end up spamming instant heals and running out of power.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Silv, if you're happy that's great, but please stop implying the rest of us can't play our class if we aren't happy with wards.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>IMHO, if you don't recognise there is an issue, it's obvious that <EM>you</EM> don't know the class as well as you think.  It only takes me <EM>one fight</EM> where specials flood through multiple wards and I can't slow or debuff in the 30 seconds it takes for the tank to die to know that <EM>wards do not work well</EM>.</DIV>

Spag
01-20-2005, 08:48 PM
<DIV> <DIV>Bigdave,</DIV> <DIV>    I dont want to hurt the cause, since I believe the wards need to account for AC as well, but in my experience the mob special attacks are absorbed by the ward.  The only thing that I have seen go through a ward is DOTs.  This seems to be the case with both casting mobs, and melee mobs.  I could be wrong as I am new to being a Shaman, and may be different at higher levels.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However there does seem to be an issue when stacking wards, and when the first ward is knocked down the remainder of the damage goes through, rather than being absorbed by the second ward.  This was brought to light by one of the parsed logs that Banditman posted.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the issue with debuffs.  I do not believe they balance us out at all.  They might come close when dealing with a single ^ or ^^ mob, if you can land them on a regular basis, but even then they take precious time, and power to cast.  Last night I was in a two man group helping out with AQ2 hunting Giant Kodiacs.  I am level 19, they were level 20, so they conned yellow to me.  Now these were solo mobs, meaning no ^ or ^^ on them.  My success rate for debuffs were probably only 25% maximum.  It took multiple attempts to debuff the mob with Wailing Haze (adept 1). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rego,</DIV> <DIV>   You say you feel that our debuffs level the playing field for us.  I feel you are wrong.  It simply comes to this.  We have to spend more time more power just to be equal, not to mention, it is impossible for us to debuff a group of 4 mobs, keep the ward up, and avoid aggro.  On top of that, the other priest gets buffs comperable to our (de)buffs.  But you maintain that we are equal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will lay it out for you, the only way we would then be equal using debuffs would be:</DIV> <DIV>The debuffs were 0 cast time</DIV> <DIV>The debuffs required 0 power</DIV> <DIV>The debuffs were never resisted</DIV> <DIV>The debuffs last the entire encounter</DIV> <DIV>The debuffs affect not only every mob in the encouner but also any adds that may come into play</DIV> <DIV>The debuffs generate 0 aggro</DIV> <DIV>and ....</DIV> <DIV>The other priest classes do not get any (de)buffs when we do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Or simply take AC into account on the wards (and fix the DOTs passing through)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Doubling the amount a ward can withstand, is not a viable option as this would make the wards too powerful when warding a low AC character.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At this point, I would be happy with just fixing the wards to take in account for AC.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Feel free to point out any flaws in my thinking if there is any.  I have an open mind.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>

Karla
01-20-2005, 09:05 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rego wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> leatia wrote:<BR>Actually, the whole problem with wards is the following:<BR><BR>Ward cast once:<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monster lands a DOT and hits monk for 67 damage.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monster uses a special attack and hits monk for 200 damage.<BR>monster hits monk's ward for 180 damage.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monster's DOT hits monk for 67 damage.<BR>monster uses a special attack and hits monk for 187 damage.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monster hits monk's ward for 100 damage.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monster's DOT hits monk for 67 damage.<BR>monster uses a special attack and hits monk for 193 damage.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>WARD DROPS<BR>monters hits monk for 100 damage.<BR>total monk damage=881<BR><BR>Reactive cast once:<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monster lands a DOT and hits monk for 67 damage, reactive heals for 67(102).<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monster SPECIAL hits monk for 123 (ac mitigated). reactive heals 102.<BR>monster hits monk for 83 (ac mitigated). reactive heals 102.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monster lands a DOT and hits monk for 67 damage, reactive heals for 102.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monster hits monk for 92 (ac mitigated). reactive heals 102.<BR>monk dodges.<BR>monster lands a DOT and hits monk for 67 damage, reactive heals for 102.<BR>reactive expires<BR>monster SPECIAL hits monk for 133 (ac mitigated)<BR>monk dodges.<BR>total monk damage=136<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>ug, that's rediculous.  You have the monk being hit and attacked more in the ward example which is totally unrealistic.  You have to take into account the mystic debuffs that would have the mob attacking the monk less and hitting the monk far less.  How hard is it for people to understand that comparing components of priest classes to eachother is meaningless and fruitless, you have to compare the whole package.  </P> <P>Maybe I'm mistaken and my mystic received debuff spells through some system irregularity and all your mystics don't have these spells, it sure sounds that way the way you talk about this subject.</P> <P>Message Edited by rego on <SPAN class=date_text>01-19-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:31 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>But debuffs can and are resisted quite often.  Last night I wanted to test wailing haze on a timber wolf in Antonica.  I am level 24 he is level like 15 or so probably less and I was resisted 3 times in a row.  If you want to add debuffs into the mix which is perfectly fine, but then you need to add those debuffs to the cost of healing.  and it still boils down that shaman need to cast 4 spells to equal 1 druid spell.</P> <P>Shaman needs to cast haze  to slow and debuff, then  delusion as a debuff, then ward, then heal.  It works like this:</P> <P>Ward.(1)</P> <P>MT pulls.</P> <P>by the time the mt gets back i either need to recast ward, or cast a debuff.  lets assume i cast debuff.(2)</P> <P>if it is resisted i am really hurting and probably need to cast a heal, or maybe another ward.  so i cast ward.(3)</P> <P>by now my haze is not up yet so i cast delusion. (4)</P> <P>it sticks.</P> <P>need to recast ward.(5)</P> <P>cast haze it sticks.(6)</P> <P>ok now i am in shape and total spell casts is: 6 casts or so</P> <P> </P> <P>ok on my druid.</P> <P>I cast HoT, not a bloom just a standard regrowth. (1)</P> <P>mt pulls and get back to group.</P> <P>By now I probably need to cast a bloom type spell.(2)</P> <P>now i am in good shape.</P> <P>Rego are you telling me that this seems balanced to you?</P>

Karla
01-20-2005, 09:19 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Spagma wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV>Bigdave,</DIV> <DIV>    I dont want to hurt the cause, since I believe the wards need to account for AC as well, but in my experience the mob special attacks are absorbed by the ward.  The only thing that I have seen go through a ward is DOTs.  This seems to be the case with both casting mobs, and melee mobs.  I could be wrong as I am new to being a Shaman, and may be different at higher levels.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However there does seem to be an issue when stacking wards, and when the first ward is knocked down the remainder of the damage goes through, rather than being absorbed by the second ward.  This was brought to light by one of the parsed logs that Banditman posted.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the issue with debuffs.  I do not believe they balance us out at all.  They might come close when dealing with a single ^ or ^^ mob, if you can land them on a regular basis, but even then they take precious time, and power to cast.  Last night I was in a two man group helping out with AQ2 hunting Giant Kodiacs.  I am level 19, they were level 20, so they conned yellow to me.  Now these were solo mobs, meaning no ^ or ^^ on them.  My success rate for debuffs were probably only 25% maximum.  It took multiple attempts to debuff the mob with Wailing Haze (adept 1). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rego,</DIV> <DIV>   You say you feel that our debuffs level the playing field for us.  I feel you are wrong.  It simply comes to this.  We have to spend more time more power just to be equal, not to mention, it is impossible for us to debuff a group of 4 mobs, keep the ward up, and avoid aggro.  On top of that, the other priest gets buffs comperable to our (de)buffs.  But you maintain that we are equal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will lay it out for you, the only way we would then be equal using debuffs would be:</DIV> <DIV>The debuffs were 0 cast time</DIV> <DIV>The debuffs required 0 power</DIV> <DIV>The debuffs were never resisted</DIV> <DIV>The debuffs last the entire encounter</DIV> <DIV>The debuffs affect not only every mob in the encouner but also any adds that may come into play</DIV> <DIV>The debuffs generate 0 aggro</DIV> <DIV>and ....</DIV> <DIV>The other priest classes do not get any (de)buffs when we do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Or simply take AC into account on the wards (and fix the DOTs passing through)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Doubling the amount a ward can withstand, is not a viable option as this would make the wards too powerful when warding a low AC character.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At this point, I would be happy with just fixing the wards to take in account for AC.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Feel free to point out any flaws in my thinking if there is any.  I have an open mind.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>your are wrong specials go right through wards.  Atleast in my experence.  I think adding the ac of the shaman to the ward is the right way to go.  not the ac of the tank.</DIV>

Spag
01-20-2005, 10:12 PM
<DIV>Interesting, I have not seen a special blow throug a ward.  I have seen DOTs blow through.  Are you referring to specials from a casting mob, or a melee mob, or both?  I have not done too much against casting mobs, as I have only taken on some gnoll casters in a group of 4 or 5 gnolls, and we take the casters and warlocks out first.  But even then I am pretty sure that their specials were not getting through, as MT would stay full health unless he got hit with a DOT, and had a red symbol below his name (noxious, elemental, or whatever).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit:   Unless these specials you are referring to are noxious, elemental, trauma, or what have you.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Spagma on <span class=date_text>01-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:14 PM</span>

Spag
01-20-2005, 10:15 PM
<DIV>It would need to be the AC of the tank, not the shaman.  Otherwise it would be not powereful enough on mitigation tanks, and way too powerful on non mitigation tanks.</DIV>

Banditman
01-21-2005, 01:11 AM
<DIV>That's a really nice idea.  Ward taking the AC of the target.</DIV>

re
01-22-2005, 03:18 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BigDave wrote:<BR> <DIV>Good grief.  You say the same in every thread, Silv, so I'll have a go too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You seem to be happy being more effective with brawlers and less effective with warriors.  Good for you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most of us, however, are not.  In my experience (and most others' it seems), brawlers are rare and I'm often up against grouped high-level mobs.  In these situations, my healing abilities <EM>including the effects of slows and debuffs </EM>are inferior to clerics (and druids to a lesser extent).  I do not like this, and I never will.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The what do you propose? Do you propose changed that will make us equally effective with warrior while still retaining our superiour brawler compatibility?  Is that fair to the other priest classes?  Or are you proposing changes that will make us equally effective with warriors and less effective with brawlers?  Is that fair to brawlers (who would be there to make them just as viable tanks)? Or are you proposing changes that will make all priests just as effective with all tanks?  Is that fair to all priests (why would priests have classes and subclasses in that scenario)?</P> <P>BTW there is no effectives difference between the priest classes as it relates to mob cons.  I've always ususally taken on yellow to red mobs to the whole group unless we're working on old quests.<BR></P>

Jerh
01-22-2005, 04:27 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Karlace wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>The devs said that all healing classes should be able to be the main healer.  This implies that the effectiveness should be the same.  <BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I disagree. If that were the case, why not just have 1 healing class? Not all tanks are the same in every situation. Not all mages are either. Why should we.<BR> <BR>Give me a group of 6 people. Me as the only healer, any tank class and whatever you want for the other 4 slots, and against any OJ group mob I can keep up going just fine. <BR> <BR>I can give you situations where we are far superior to any other healing class, I can give you situations where we fall far short compared to others. I like it that way. It's part of the game to make sure the situation is to your advantage.<BR> <BR>Just play smart and try not to be all things to all people.</DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Ender
01-22-2005, 05:52 AM
LOL who said anything about a group of 6?lvl 41 swash + lvl 43 dirge + lvl 39 shaman = ggkilling lvl 48 ^^ no problem. Swash tanking.My guildmate is the dirge.

leatia
01-22-2005, 06:43 AM
<blockquote><hr>rego wrote:<BR>ug, that's rediculous. You have the monk being hit and attacked more in the ward example which is totally unrealistic. You have to take into account the mystic debuffs that would have the mob attacking the monk less and hitting the monk far less. How hard is it for people to understand that comparing components of priest classes to eachother is meaningless and fruitless, you have to compare the whole package. </P><P>Maybe I'm mistaken and my mystic received debuff spells through some system irregularity and all your mystics don't have these spells, it sure sounds that way the way you talk about this subject.</P><p>Message Edited by rego on <span class=date_text>01-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:31 PM</span><hr></blockquote>Wrong.. You just missed the point by miles.Special attacks go right through wards. Debuffs don't counteract dots/spells. The example, while possibly math off by a few health, was the exact same series for both cleric and mystic. The same specials/spells and melee rounds effected both. It just was a mob that capitalized on both the DOT and special attack issues that defy Mystic's group attributes.This is where the problem with Mystics revolves. Our wards, slows, and debuffs do nothing to counteract special attacks, spells and dots. Reactive and improved heals do.This speaks NOTHING of resists, which anyone that has been playing since November will clearly know have been boosted significantly, especially for ^ and ^^ mobs. You can take a level 28-35 Mystic into Vermins Snye if you want to see this. Try sticking a Haze or Contagion on the looong since grey level 14-15 ^^ scorps, snakes or shrillers. You'll still see roughly a 20-33% resist rate even on mobs with this insane amount level handicap. I parsed 100 kills on level 14-15 ^^ scorps which resulted in a 28% resist rate from a level 29 Mystic (one of my alts) landing contag/haze.In order to better balance Mystics, you have to fix one or more of those current realities. You either make wards block specials, add ac mitigation to wards, or add more lines of power efficient "heal + cure" spells (like Totemic Aid). Not all of the above, of course. One of the three would re-balance Mystics accordingly.

Aaldaaf
01-22-2005, 03:21 PM
<DIV> <DIV>The visable impact of our debufs goes up significantly with level.  In the low 20s it's like why bother, by the mid 40s it's automatic and they are seldom resisted.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now I wish people would quit getting upset that mystics work well with monks.  I can handle twice or more the fight with a monk instead of a guardian.  Monks in the 40s with the innate shield are something to behold,  ward is likely to time out before getting used up on a single yellow ++ once the debufs are on.  Given them avatar for the 30 agility and start casting dots.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Instead of attacking the fact that we fit better with monks focus the complaints on the fact that we can't heal as well in most groups.   I've been grouped with a heavy tank more than 90% of the time, so to me a monk is a rare treat.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you choose to play a mystic then use the tools and have fun.  No matter how we compare I so glad I'm not a dime a dozen templar, I'll willingly give them the better healing on heavy tanks for the fun I have as a shaman.  The bottom line is if you can't see playing the shaman to 50 without any changes you should change classes now before the grind gets really slow.  I'm sure the balance will be changed since the game is always changing but odds are it won't be enough to make the class play that differently.  Changing wards carries a high risk of messing up the tuning of raid encounters and those are already screwed up.  If a designer fights for an improvement to wards I expect they would have a hard battle internally in the design team.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As to quoting prerelease game hype,  I suppose you expect congress to keep all the election promises made by the members as well.  I don't care what they clamed, I care about how we play now.</DIV></DIV>

leatia
01-23-2005, 12:28 AM
The thing is though- monks with their natural innate avoidance are going to have the same traits regardless of what priest class is healing. This doesn't make any sort of "advantage" for a mystic. Saying monks are well suited to mystics as a primary healer is a moot point. They are doubly so with a fury or a templar.I don't see ANY major difference with a well outfitted Guardian, to be honest. It's just finding one is extremely hard. Monks perks come naturally and have a lot less to do with gear up until about level 30 or so. A monk with very little skill and little attention to his or her gear compared to a Guardian of the same... the monk wins hands down. By law of averages, a good chunk of the playerbase doesn't have a 100% focus on how good their gear is, so monks are going to seem substantially better just because they are a class with natural affinity for avoidance, regardless of the tool at the keyboard controlling them.I've had guardians in 25-35 groups that didn't even really need a healer. Their resists were all 500+, ac was huge, massive health pool, used all their combat buffs per pull, hunkered down often to further improve defense, ate/drank T4-T5 provisioner goods, and maintained all orange/yellow/white gear with highest Warrior-benefit stats available. As Guardians are meant to soak damage, this puts nearly 80% of their abilities on their gear. Did you also know that Guardians can drain a mobs power? Usually in 2-3 casts of their power draining abilities, they can empty the power pool of a mob. How many do you know that actually do this?Our wards are just better suited towards monks as they don't have any mitigation. The real issue is there are tanks out there with enough game skill/knowledge that honestly dont need wards. Keeping them alive with a slow, debuffs and a few splash heals is all that is required. If this is draining your power, then add some more DPS to the group to kill the pulls faster. For the other 80% of the Fighter archetype with crap blue/green gear, less AC than the shaman, and are mindless button-mashers; tell them they should consider re-rolling as a monk.

kenji
01-24-2005, 07:05 AM
<DIV>well....seems Devs fixed "monk avoidance" already, is that monk with dirge and "shaman" still work now? or flawed already?</DIV>

Aaldaaf
01-24-2005, 01:50 PM
<DIV>Can you provide some details, I saw the note on what seems to raise the attack on 40+ mobs.  Only monk fight I was in today was a 50 monk tanking the EF boat,  he did get hit some, where in the past he never used to, but spells did him in first round, added a cleric and it was easy again.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Healing has been a bit too easy with a 45+ monk so some change could be expected, I heard they were untouchable if the bards buffed right.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Still if a monk isn't getting hit often a reactive will not be effective where the one big hit will take the full value of the ward.  I had a fairly easy time with a ratonga guardian that had high agility.  We did have a cleric but since she was 10 levels lower my wards/heals were doing the majority of the work and were ok.  This was lower CT so the mobs were mainly blue (47-4<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> but still yellow/orange to the tank.</DIV>

Spag
01-24-2005, 08:25 PM
<DIV>I must admit I was wrong, specials do occasionally blow through wards. I was able to witness it this weekend, first time it happened to me (that I noticed).  Although I do not think they always go though, maybe certain types do.</DIV>

Banditman
01-24-2005, 10:33 PM
<DIV>Absolutely correct, they do not always blow thru Wards, which is even more frustrating than if it happened all the time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The best explanation so far is that anything puts an icon under a players name will go thru the Ward, regardless of whether it is arcane in nature or physical.  I'm not sure whether that explanation is completely accurate either.  It definitely fits most of the situations I've seen, but without more observation I'm still not ready to sign off on that as 100% accurate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The question at that point is whether or not these things cause a Reactive heal to fire.  Right now there is conflicting information on this point and it really needs to be clarified.  We know a Druid can use their special to heal things of this nature.  A Cleric can certainly use their Reactive to heal this damage "indirectly", but how much of this type damage actually fires the Reactive is a key point that is unclear at the moment.</DIV>

leatia
01-25-2005, 02:51 AM
Some non-duration physical specials also can blow right through wards. Fighter archetype mobs have landed a number of Wild Swings, Slams, Kicks and other single-hit, high damage specials that have blown right through my wards.Want to hear an interesting theory? I believe this behavior is a tweak/tune applied in order to *benefit* player chars. I'll explain.I made a Guardian alt, being a bit disillusioned with my Mystic and have been enjoying the game once more. When in groups with my Guardian, we've come across a number of Mystic/shaman class mobs that also use wards. My Guardian's specials blow right through them as well! I can land Wound/Dot and power drain dots, I can also slam, kick, knee break and other specials that directly apply damage to the mob once they have warded themselves.This is a critical thing- if there is a wizard in the group, the wizard is the one blowing through the ward. My two one-handers are going to take a while to chew through it and seem to be the only thing that the ward absorbs.If you think about it, taunting a mob alone wont hold aggro well when there is a wizard in the group nuking. The combination of specials + taunts, while normal dual-wield damage is fully absorbed.. this allows a warrior archetype to hold aggro while NPC/mob wards are up. I can absolutely tell you with a good, high INT/nuking wizard: just attack on + ward absorbtion + taunts only- the mob would jump the wizard once the first nuke after ward hit. I wouldn't possibly be able to keep hate/aggro unless I was also landing 80-150 special damage attacks while taunting the entire time a ward is up on the enemy mob.My theory is- this global change is an ill-effect for Mystics to balance that group dynamic. They applied a global Mystic ward behavior to the game in order to prevent nukers/dps classes from getting pelted from hate loss to a melee while a ward is up. Allow a few specials to penetrate and actually do damage... this creates a nice cushion to let fighters maintain aggro for warding mobs.

Banditman
01-25-2005, 03:05 AM
<DIV>That is certainly an interesting theory.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not certain I'm ready to buy it yet, but I'm not ready to discount it either.</DIV>

Spag
01-25-2005, 07:40 PM
<DIV> <DIV>Leatia,</DIV> <DIV>     Whether the Mob takes damage or the ward absorbs damage, aggro is still generated.  This goes as well for buffs, group buffs, debuffs, and any resisted casts, these dont actually damage the mob, but still do generate aggro.  I am not disagreeing with your theory, but just wanted to let you know you dont have to damage the mob to generate aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On a side note, I had my first bad experience with a Mystic.  This was not my mystic character, as I was playing my swashie at the time, but a lvl 21 mystic in stormhold.  I was actually surprised that he was not able to hold his own, we were even grouped with a lvl 22 Monk, and had 3 DPS, 2 swashies and 1 wiz.  We were only taking on whites and yellows groups or ^^'s.  Should not have been a problem with our group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I found out later that he had not been defuffing the mob, because he was unsure of his wards, and his mana usage.  In my eyes this shows that we (mystics) absolutely have to debuff the mob, just to get close to an even playing field.  After that group, I can bet everyone walked away with a bad taste in their mouths about mystics.  Now I don't know what level spells he had or how good of a player he was, but the mobs we were going against were not all that bad.  Conned white to our tank.  A single add would cause a death or a wipe if our tank went down too quick.</DIV></DIV>

Banditman
01-25-2005, 11:41 PM
<DIV>Debuffs are not the answer.  In a situation where there is only one mob, landing Delusion and Keening Haze will reduce the overall DPS of that one mob by about 13 percent.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The effect is less and less significant as there are more and more mobs engaged.</DIV>

Spag
01-26-2005, 12:44 AM
<DIV>I absolutely agree, by no means am I saying that the debuffs are there to make us equal.  But with the current state of wards, the overall problem becomes much more amplified if debuffs are not being used at all.  </DIV>

Karla
01-27-2005, 09:38 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kenjiso wrote:<BR> <DIV>well....seems Devs fixed "monk avoidance" already, is that monk with dirge and "shaman" still work now? or flawed already?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> How did they fix monk avoidance?

Muad`D
01-28-2005, 12:18 AM
<DIV>I disagree with the statement that debuffs only reduce the mobs dps by 13 percent. This might be the case in some instances, but is not true on the whole. Last night in Rivervale, I (lvl 36 mystic) was duoing with my wife (40 monk) and we were fighting lvl 39-41^^ mobs and once i landed keening haze adept 1 on the mobs, their dps went down about 95%. I never once used a ward or a heal, as soon as the mob was debuffed, my wife simply stopped taking damage.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Muad`Dib on <span class=date_text>01-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:19 AM</span>

obe
01-28-2005, 01:19 AM
<DIV>I'd bring a log if I were you mate, because thats all bandits gonna say when he gives you a bollocking for not believing him. :smileyindifferent:</DIV>

Banditman
01-28-2005, 01:30 AM
<DIV>I'd love to see that logged.</DIV>