PDA

View Full Version : Asking for Mystics thoughts on tanks.


Nemi
01-14-2005, 05:46 PM
<DIV>Hey there, a friendly Monk dropping by your boards to gather your opinions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is currently a theory that each fighter class has a corresponding priest that compliments them in healing. They stated aim of Developers was to allow <STRONG><U>ALL</U></STRONG> Fighter subclasses be viable tanks, and they have achieved this by making each Priest be more effective healing each Fighter class, for Shamans that seems to be Brawlers:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Warriors go with Clerics: Getting hit often for small amounts is great for Reactive heals</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) Brawlers go with Shamans: Not getting hit often for higher amounts is great for Wards.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3) Crusaders go with Druids: Middle road plus own wards is great for Regens.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is the theory and I can say as a tanking Monk that I subscribe to it, however lots of shamans I have grouped with have been reluctant to have me tank. This leads me to come past your board and see if that is the general consensus or whether I've just been unlucky.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally as a monk I would choose to have:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shaman + Enchanter or,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shaman + Druid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Would you all mind giving me your opinion on it?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Halam
01-14-2005, 06:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE>well lets see..</BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For the higher lvl mobs i was able to single heal grp 42-50 in level(Myself+Guardian+4DPS) easily enough.. As a mystic i get debuffs that make the mob miss a lot more.. so IMHO Mystic can go well for anything...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now.. a Solo healer in the grp really is not a good idea.. we came close to wipe so many times it aint even funny.. But... I would recomendthis..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>1) Warriors go with Cleric+Shaman(or Druid) because wards make the reactive heals last longer + the shaman debuffs help a ton to. Or the druid could regen HP with the reactive heal up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) Brawlers go with Shamans+Druid because they dont take heavy damage so the ward can absorb the small hits.. and during the time that the ward is down the druid can regen its health..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3) Crusaders go with Cleric+Shaman(or Druid) Because they still take heavy dmg.. same with the warrior comment..</DIV></DIV></FONT>

Kede
01-14-2005, 08:12 PM
<DIV>If I am the main healer in a group I find that alot of the time I can take care of a monk better then I can a tank with my wards. Saddly our wards are flawed so in turn the Mystic / monk combo is also flawed. I feel the flawed ward makes the cleric / Guardian combo the better. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When the group is open-minded enough to let the monk tank I normaly can manage healing much easier, use less power and I enjoy it more. Monk are my favorite tanking class. It's just hard beating the other healers at the same job. I'm sure monks feel the same when it comes too the other fighter classes</DIV>

Nemi
01-14-2005, 08:57 PM
<DIV>Hmm, you have a good point here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sony has a vision, and its this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Warriors go with Clerics</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) Brawlers go with Shamans</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3) Crusaders go with Druids</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All fine and dandy yes?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U>BUT</U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U></U></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>People have the EQ1 misconception that only Guardians are tanks, this mean people who want to tank pick Guardians as the class to play. Also, most Monks don't believe they can tank and are a DPS class instead. Its a vicious circle that needs to be broken. Shamans need to push for monks to tank (if they are the only healer in a group). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Monk forum is full of posts stating, arguing and pushing for monks to tank. Monks need to learn they are tanks and need to learn how to tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All classes need to learn that there are 3 Fighter trees and 3 Priest classes that support them. Otherwise the whines and flames will erupt and this beautiful game will descend into some obscene mirror image of EQ1.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

cas
01-14-2005, 10:18 PM
<DIV>on many occasions when I am in a group and there is a monk and a AC tank..  I let the AC tank go for a bit then I suggest the monk tank for a bit and the diff is so huge the monk continues to Tank may take him a few fights to learn taunt..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the whole group whines when I suggest the monk to tank..  I just send the monk a tell and say trust me and it works out..</DIV>

Kalam
01-14-2005, 10:20 PM
<DIV>Personally, I don't think there was any SoE vision regarding matching certain Priest classes with certain Fighter classes.  I say this because Cleric reactive heals were a late change in Beta, in response to the advantage Clerics had in being able to stack their class specific heal, which at the time was a simple Direct Heal.  Also, all Priests had all the different heal types until late in Beta.  Clerics and Druids had Wards, Shaman and Clerics had Regens, and we all had the same archtype based Direct Heals.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The phenomenon we're seeing that seems to match certain healers better with certain tanks is a side effect of SoE's attempts to make classes more diverse, and the decision to give Clerics reactive heals to deal with the heal stacking issue.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Ariaya
01-14-2005, 11:52 PM
<DIV>My normal duo-ing partner is a Guardian, but there's a brawler in the guild that often groups with us.  When he does the brawler generally tanks and I find that I have an easier time of it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, I don't have issues keeping my Guardian partner alive either, it just takes a little more careful timing and HOs.</DIV>

re
01-18-2005, 08:12 AM
<DIV>Brawlers and shaman definatly complement each other.  The shaman debuffs just amplify the evade tank's abilities and the ward is the perfect alternative heal for the time that the evade tank does get hit.  Most of my eq2 life has been spent with our group using a swashbuckler as a tank (not even a fighter!) and we do great.  I have no problems when we use our paladin as a tank, but in those cases a cleric or a druid would be more efficient.</DIV>

Melamp
01-26-2005, 10:52 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Halamaf wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>well lets see..</BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For the higher lvl mobs i was able to single heal grp 42-50 in level(Myself+Guardian+4DPS) easily enough.. As a mystic i get debuffs that make the mob miss a lot more.. so IMHO Mystic can go well for anything...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>2) Brawlers go with Shamans+Druid because they dont take heavy damage so the ward can absorb the small hits.. and during the time that the ward is down the druid can regen its health..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV></FONT><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> you had a static grp from 40-50...with sham/cleric/war/bard/dps/dps </P> <P>Which druid is of high enough level that you grpped with to prove this?<BR></P>

Banditman
01-26-2005, 11:01 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rego wrote:<BR> <DIV>The shaman debuffs just amplify the evade tank's abilities and the ward is the perfect alternative heal for the time that the evade tank does get hit.  <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>No.  This is not correct.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We have debuffs that have three effects between two spells.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Delusion line debuffs mob STR.  This shifts the damage table in the favor of the player.  It manifests itself with more zero damage hits against medium and higher AC targets, which the game reports as misses.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Keening Haze line slows a mobs attack speed (increases it's delay) and decreases it's attack rating.  The Slow portion of the debuff is a fixed 15 percent in all the tests I've seen run so far.  The ATK debuff is a flat debuff against the mobs ability to hit ANY target, not just an evade tank.  The mob would miss a tree more often if it decided to chop it down.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The final nail is that these debuffs ONLY work against the mob's standard melee attack.  They do nothing for the Specials, Spells and Combat Arts a mob might possess.  As such, these debuffs are only impacting 32 to 45 percent of a mob's total DPS output.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Banditman on <span class=date_text>01-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:02 PM</span>

disru
01-27-2005, 12:25 AM
I am still not convinced that we heal brawlers "better" than a cleric or druid.

Fel
01-27-2005, 02:12 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> disrupt wrote:<BR>I am still not convinced that we heal brawlers "better" than a cleric or druid.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P> <SPAN>I'm still out on this myself.  The one thing I can come up with is that we heal Evasion tanks better then clerics.  If a cleric is healing a brawler their special ability isn't efficient in dealing with the higher damage hits the tank will take when they do get hit.  A guardian getting hit for 150 is perfect for taking advantage of a +125 reactive heal.  An evasion tank getting smacked for 300 when they do get hit is not benefiting as much from the +125 reactive.  Just like our overall gripe with wards, the cleric would have to add in Instant heals to compensate.  The efficiency is wasted in the clerics core ability, the reactive heal.  High AC tank makes sense with cleric.  The efficiency of the tanking and healing is tied to the amount of damage that can be mitigated by AC in each hit.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>I can't see why we would heal an evasion tank better then a Druid.  A druid's H.O.T.s will constantly heal any damage the brawler is taking from melee attacks, magical damage, whatever.  The core efficiency of the druids H.O.T ability are not wasted.  Any tank makes sense with druid.</SPAN>  The efficiency in the healing to tanking relation ship is how fast the tank is taking damage over a period of time.  As long as its at a speed that keeps pace with the H.O.T.s then everything is cozy.</P> <P><SPAN>Warding an evasion tank will stop the melee damage when he does get hit.  They will not prevent any other damage though and unless the mob is a melee damage only then we will have to compensate with instant heals for any other damage type and the damage taken at the end of a ward.   The efficiency of wards is not wasted on evasion tanks.  Brawlers make sense with Shamans. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>I'm to biased to type the rest up for Shamans.  Their core ability only protect mele damage and does that in an inefficent way @ zero mitigation.  Bleh</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>I love my rat though and will play him to 50 come hell high water or increadibly UGLY [FaarNerfed!] purple robes that we will have to wear for mana regen effects </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Felps</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

Muad`D
01-28-2005, 09:41 PM
<DIV>I agree that we do not heal brawlers better than other classes. But by this I mean that at 40+, with the brawler tanking we don't have to heal. I duo against lvl 40-41^^ mobs in RV with my wife who is a 40 monk, and i cast slow on the pull and never once do I have to heal or ward.</DIV>

ChristopherK
01-29-2005, 02:27 AM
<DIV>With the upcoming changes to the "chance to hit" + agility calculations as well as buff stacks.. it may not be as easy as slow and melee <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I find it easy to heal/prevent damage on any fighter class. Slow + Good AC mitigation = low healing as well as Slow + Avoidance. In most fights, it's just the first few seconds that you have to be on your toes. After the initial berage by most mobs they tend to settle down and it becomes easier.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I love being a Mystic. It's fun. I think all the priest classes stay pretty close to being affective in any encounter. Power efficiency on prolonged fights would be the only thing that needs a tweak here and there. And that in itself isn't a "huge" importance that I want the DEVs working it instead of fixing the other bugs in the game which effect all classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(I know this post makes no points so) Point of the day: In the end, I well played Mystic is a better healer than a porly played Templar. Play your character well and you will always be welcome in any group. ( I love it when the group picks up a sixth player and the "don't we need another healer" question pops up and the rest of the group says "no, we are fine" Just makes you feel respected and appreciated)</DIV>

disru
01-29-2005, 02:35 AM
<blockquote><hr>ChristopherKee wrote:<DIV>( I love it when the group picks up a sixth player and the "don't we need another healer" question pops up and the rest of the group says "no, we are fine" Just makes you feel respected and appreciated)</DIV><hr></blockquote>This is usually when I think to myself, "oh crap, exp is gonna be slow going unless I use these @#$^@$& expensive drinks"

ChristopherK
01-29-2005, 02:49 AM
<DIV>=) I hear you there.. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Try and find a provisioner who will do a 2 for 1 turnaround on your tier drink. Don't ask for the 2 or 3 combine versions, just the 1 combind 1 to 1.5 hour drinks. By doing this you save some good money and help the provisioner level. Plus, any drink over 2 hours is a waste. Most pickup groups don't last that long. And it "sux" to die right after you pop a 5 hour T4 drink (waste of money)</DIV>

leatia
01-29-2005, 09:02 AM
This whole notion that some meleer's are better paired with some healers is just a big farce. It's a new mindset of denial surrounding issues with some classes and makes those that have happened to timesink 100's of hours into one of these gimped classes feel better.A higher-avoidance melee'r is going to be triple good for a cleric versus "doable" to a shaman with gimped heals, broken wards and encountering lots of resists as mobs have been tuned to prevent that level 40 wizard from solo farming them. When you have a class with substantially lesser healing ability (like the shaman), of course a 'tank' with higher avoidance becomes almost a prerequisite. While slightly gimped healers can also provide healing functionality with damage absorbing tank classes, as our heals are gimped due to slows, wards and debuffs- in the situation of resists or even momentary lag; it starts to become very critical to either add another healer for those first few seconds of a pull, or get caught in a tough cycle of chaining heals and wards with no time to re-attempt to slow/debuff, thus blowing through all your power, or resulting in the tank dieing.So, no.. there is no "matched meleer's" in EQ2. There are just more gimped and less gimped healers. What a more gimped healer can sustain alive due to avoidance, a less gimped healer can keep alive doubly so.

Axterix
01-30-2005, 04:27 AM
<DIV>Well, it isn't totally silly.  The thing is that the difference between the combos should still be decently close, not a huge gap.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Of course, if druids are supposed to hook up with crusaders, someone screwed up.  They are at the bottom of my "tanks I want" list as a Fury.</DIV>

Aaldaaf
01-30-2005, 02:46 PM
<DIV>Well Leatia we can quit playing our Mystics or we can find how to best use what we have.  That doesn't indicate denial,  just that there are options beside quiting.  I've never said wards shouldn't be fixed but doesn't make the class unplayable.  I like being a mystic and while some adjustments would make me like it better, I'll find ways to keep going.  No way am I going to hide in ugly plate and look like somebody forgot to put the boiler away.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>High avoidance mele do not work as well for Templars because they take big bursts of damage, when they get hit they get hit hard, that is exactly the wrong thing for a reactive so their effectiveness drops down to at or below ours.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you are a shaman and you are going to solo heal try to get a monk,  makes the game a lot more fun.  If you have a druid try and find a monk so the druid can go damage and make the wizards look bad.  Even with a high AC tank the druids buffs plus some regen can make us effective while again they do a lot of damge.  Group with a templar and our buffs, heals, dots, wards all add up to make groups like us.  Two healers lets you go for the names and the fat loot, play harder, and xp faster without sitting in a corner at a static camp.  Solo healing is just facet of our game, not the only way to play.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Class balance is so blatently broken I just hope somebody notices us.   Wizards doing only 2/3 the damage of a guardian; there are some major changes coming.  Mid fourties group of two guardians, a monk, a bard, a chanter, a druid (druid because they will be doing damge more than healing).  That shouldn't be a top group but it is right now.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We carry our load in a group better than many classes.  Lets not be bitter, lets work for fixes and have fun.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

hieronym
01-31-2005, 08:46 PM
<DIV>Being a paladin and a monk and grouping with both a mystic and a templer I can say that as a paladin my health is always lower and doesnt get revived as much when a mystic is healing. Im forever thinking to myself are these guys asleep or why arnt i getting the big health hits i do with a templer. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I grouped up with a mystic and and a pally playing my alt 21 monk the other day and i asked to be MT. The healing was so much better and I had full confidence right up to the point we got a yellow and ^^ orange add and got battered lol.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have now learned with mainly help from the monk forum that a paladin tank goes with a templer and monk goes with a mystic.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Obviously the mystic can heal the pally but in my view not so well and things can get dicey in the event of a lower mob add.</DIV>

ear
02-01-2005, 07:58 PM
<DIV>Are monks healed by mystics better than other by other priests?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Probably. As have been stated monks takes damage in large chunks but at a slower pace than other fighters.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That would make clerics less effective. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Leaving the field for the druid or the mystic. A druid is the most effective healer damage/power wise, but for keeping the party or at least the monk the alive in a hard battle that is offset by chance. The monk is not going to take those large chunks damage in a predictable way many times but will often take a number of large hit in a quick succession. When that happens a ward will keep the monk alive whereas the regen will not. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then again, two healer or healer - mezz is probably better than single healer for group survival.</DIV>

Jerh
02-02-2005, 02:11 AM
<DIV>Sigh…</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A guy asks a question and it turns into “Mystic’s are broke”…</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seems you’re asking if when a Shaman is your main healer, all things being equal should a brawer be the tank?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The answer is yes, with all things being equal. A few things to think about when in a group however.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Levels make a big difference. If you’re a 23 Monk and there is a 25 Guardian in the group, chances are the guardian would make a better tank for a shaman.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally, I think the most important thing for a tank is agro control. I don’t care what class is the tank as long as he can do that well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If all tanks in the group can do that well, the same level, and one of them is a brawler, I go with the brawler.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hope this helps</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

leatia
02-02-2005, 03:43 AM
<blockquote><hr>Aaldaaf wrote:<DIV>High avoidance mele do not work as well for Templars because they take big bursts of damage, when they get hit they get hit hard, that is exactly the wrong thing for a reactive so their effectiveness drops down to at or below ours. </DIV><hr></blockquote>How so? Templars also have much bigger, more efficient instant heals. Third base.A high avoidance melee in no way "does not work well" for a Templar in any way, shape or form. For little bursts, their reactives work better than our wards. For bigger bursts, their instant heals still work better than ours.In ALL cases, there is no "doesn't work well with other Priests"... this is the real situation. Whatever class a Mystic believes is easy to keep alive, the other priest classes find even easier. End of story.This has nothing to do with giving up on playing our Mystics. Those of us that enjoy and love the class find this added challenge a bit more risky and exciting. So we have to be on our toes and play with 2x the effort? Big deal. Playing "just a healer" is a mind-numbing job of smacking heals/secondaries as needed. Mystics spice this up with a little thrill. I'll only whine about blatant bugs (debuffs dropping early, etc.) ... and other players trying to create balance where there is none. A brain-dead, unskilled player can keep tanks alive while drinking a cup of coffee as a templar, but it requires instead a skilled/very aware mystic to do the same.. it's a lot more effort, but this makes the class more of a challenge to play.It just comes down to recognition that there are no 'matched pairs' concerning Mystics and benefit at this juncture. It's really just the fact of how difficult a time a Mystic has keeping alive certain classes versus other priests.