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Harvyst
12-30-2004, 02:54 AM
I'm trying to figure out when I should stop bothering with courage. It does give a nice ac boost, but it's gone very grey to me at 30, and there doesn't seem to be an upgrade to it.Do you still cast courage at this level? If not, what do you replace it with?

Fashion_dealer
12-30-2004, 11:46 AM
<DIV>I got rid of it at about 25. I got full conc about then when I got Ursine. So my buff regime was spirit of badger, spirit of bull, spiritual seal, ursine bear and one other one that I can't think of now but isn't courage. I figured all thos are stil at least green so they must better than courage which was grey at 20 and seemed to cease giving benfits about then.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Arzanes</DIV> <DIV>Najeena</DIV>

Merrygr
12-30-2004, 01:21 PM
<DIV>I honestly don't know.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At 29 we get the new group power buff. I have replaced courage with this one, but I'm not sure that is the right thing to do. I have seen parses where the blessed weapon effect from courage actually adds up to a 'fair' amount of damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

BigDa
12-30-2004, 02:46 PM
<DIV>I dropped Courage a while back and still get Blessed Weapon.  I think it's from a particular HO buff.  *shrug*</DIV>

Merrygr
12-30-2004, 04:37 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BigDave wrote:<BR> <DIV>I dropped Courage a while back and still get Blessed Weapon.  I think it's from a particular HO buff.  *shrug*</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Could be, but we never use HOs (which in itself is a shame, but that is another issue).<BR>

Wandat
12-30-2004, 06:54 PM
<DIV>Spirit of the Badger is the upgrade to Courage without the STR boost.  Spirit of the Badger also gives the Blessed Weapon proc just like Courage does.</DIV>

Triyton
12-30-2004, 08:39 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wandatin wrote:<BR> <DIV>Spirit of the Badger is the upgrade to Courage without the STR boost.  Spirit of the Badger also gives the Blessed Weapon proc just like Courage does.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Nevertheless, they would appear to stack.</P> <P>At level 22 I currently use Courage, Spiritual Seal, Spirit of the Bull, Spirit of the Badger, and Ursine Elder.  </P> <P>I looked at Auspice, but it takes two concentration slots so I would have to drop Courage and either Spiritual Seal or Ursine Elder both to use it, and the way it is worded it only applies to one person.  Using Bull, Badger, Auspice (on myself for testing), and Ursine Elder I get a higher power rating but lower stamina and health.</P> <P> </P>

Wandat
12-30-2004, 09:15 PM
<DIV>At 21st level I use Spiritual Seal, Spirit of the Badger, Auspice, and Ursine Elder while soloing.  If I remember correctly the AC bonus of Courage and Badger don't stack.  Spirit of the Bull is more useful on tanks IMHO so I don't use it while soloing.  I think Auspice gives me more benefit.  When I group however I drop Auspice in favor of Courage and Spirit of the Bull.</DIV>

Lit
12-30-2004, 09:35 PM
<DIV>Courage, badger, bull, spiritual seal all stack.  I choose to use courage (at level 25) still because of a simple test I performed.  Before they fixed city writs, I was in my upper teens or low 20s.  Some of the gnolls were just barely grey to me.  I was using Auspice pretty exclusively until I decided to perform a test.  The gnolls were still hitting me quasi-frequently with Auspice on, but once I ditched it and went back to courage they stopped hitting me almost all together.  The AC boost was significant enough for me to decide that courage is what I'll take over Auspice until a better replacement comes about.  Now, obviously this is on a very micro scale.  The gnolls weren't hitting me enough to do any significant damage before I casted courage; however, it illustrated the effect that AC has.  No, I didn't parse it, but as soon as I casted courage (middle of the fight), their damage went down to almost nil.  On a mob that is white/orange, it may be a wash all together, but I prefer to keep my AC as high as possible.  Obviously ward makes a huge difference in the grand scheme of things, but sometimes we run out of power...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As others have mentioned, the other side-benefit of courage is that it hits all party members.  Auspice only hits one member and costs two concentration spots.  Ultimately, it's up to everyone.  This is just the lineup I have on at all times (until a better set of upgrades come):</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Spirit of the Bull</DIV> <DIV>Spirit of the Badger</DIV> <DIV>Spiritual Seal</DIV> <DIV>Ursine Elder</DIV> <DIV>Courage</DIV>

Kalam
12-30-2004, 10:35 PM
<DIV>Yeah I ditched Courage when I got Prophetic Guard.  So now my buff lineup is Spiritual Seal, Badger, Bull, Ursine Elder, and Prophetic Guard at lvl 29.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>By the way I discovered something regarding Prophetic Guard, which only may be an issue for you when grouped with another Priest.  There seems to be a level based cap on HP and Power.  I was grouped with a Druid the other night and found that my Adept I Prophetic Guard wasn't increasing my Power pool.  In fact casting it or and dropping it didn't change my max Power at all.  I thought it was a bug, but I checked it later solo and it did in fact increase my Power pool with just my own buffs.  So you may run into a situation where Prophetic Guard adds no Power pool benefit, just the Noxious resist boost component.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Leji
12-31-2004, 12:52 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Courage, badger, bull, spiritual seal all stack <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Wrong.</P> <P>Cast Courage, then Badger. Take note of the AC.</P> <P>Click both off.</P> <P>Cast Badger, then Courage. Take note of the AC.</P> <P>Do it.</P> <P>Notice that in the first case Courage is actually detrimental to you.<BR></P> <P>Moral of the story : stop using Courage once you have Badger available (i didn't test it until i was high in my 20s, given the quality of your spells, Courage may still grant more AC than Badger for a few levels, in which case, stick to Courage only, but once Badger takes the lead, there's no point to use Courage anymore since only the AC from the first one you cast apply).</P> <p>Message Edited by Lejina on <span class=date_text>12-30-2004</span> <span class=time_text>11:59 AM</span>

Merrygr
12-31-2004, 02:37 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wandatin wrote:<BR> <DIV>Spirit of the Badger is the upgrade to Courage without the STR boost.  Spirit of the Badger also gives the Blessed Weapon proc just like Courage does.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Not directed at poster.</P> <P>How are we suposed to know these things when it is not in spell descriptions (neither for courage nor badger).<BR></P> <P>I wish they could give proper descriptions.</P>

Wandat
12-31-2004, 02:42 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Merrygrin wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wandatin wrote:<BR> <DIV>Spirit of the Badger is the upgrade to Courage without the STR boost.  Spirit of the Badger also gives the Blessed Weapon proc just like Courage does.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Not directed at poster.</P> <P>How are we suposed to know these things when it is not in spell descriptions (neither for courage nor badger).<BR></P> <P>I wish they could give proper descriptions.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I had to test it myself.  A topic came up a couple of weeks ago about the Blessed Weapon proc.  Many people speculated about what caused it but nobody had a firm answer.  I decided to test it myself to see if it was Courage, Badger, HO effect, or just a built in effect of being a Priest.  I agree with you about wishing the spell descriptions were a little more informative.</FONT></DIV>

Lit
12-31-2004, 06:30 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lejina wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Courage, badger, bull, spiritual seal all stack <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Wrong.</P> <P>Cast Courage, then Badger. Take note of the AC.</P> <P>Click both off.</P> <P>Cast Badger, then Courage. Take note of the AC.</P> <P>Do it.</P> <P>Notice that in the first case Courage is actually detrimental to you.<BR></P> <P>Moral of the story : stop using Courage once you have Badger available (i didn't test it until i was high in my 20s, given the quality of your spells, Courage may still grant more AC than Badger for a few levels, in which case, stick to Courage only, but once Badger takes the lead, there's no point to use Courage anymore since only the AC from the first one you cast apply).</P> <P>Message Edited by Lejina on <SPAN class=date_text>12-30-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:59 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Actually, that's incorrect.  You are correct in that the AC component doesn't stack, but there is no non-beneficial side-effects to having both on.  Actually, quite the contrary.  Below are my findings:</P> <P>No spells on at all: Health - 893, Power  - 778, AC - 1214</P> <P>Courage only: Health - 913, Power - 782, AC - 1291</P> <P>Badger only: Health - 893, Power - 796, AC 1441</P> <P>Courage & Badger (courage cast first): Health - 913, Power - 796, AC - 1441</P> <P>Courage & Badger (badger cast first): Health - 913, Power - 796, AC - 1441</P> <P>So, it would seem that having both on does not increase your AC, but it most definitely increases your health, and the health of your group mates.  The reason why I noticed the AC increase when I was in my late teens was that I must not have had badger yet.  Our guild was striving to guild level 5, and the only thing I remember is that I was in my late teens (I did not yet have bear form, so I couldn't have been 20).  Hence, the increase in AC from courage made a distinct difference.  So, nothwithstanding the evidence that adding courage gives no additional AC boost over badger, AC is still a valuable component in damage avoidance/mitigation and should be used where available.</P> <P>Based on these findings, I will continue to cast courage until I have a complete replacement for it.<BR></P>

Wandat
12-31-2004, 12:39 PM
<DIV>At 21st level with Apprentice III versions of both Courage and Auspice and Adept I of Spirit of the Bull I get the following results:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Courage = +17 HP, +4 Power</DIV> <DIV>Spirit of the Bull = +49 HP</DIV> <DIV>Auspice = +71 HP, +43 Power</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I did not include the AC bonus of Courage since it doesn't stack with Spirit of the Badger.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In a group situation it would seem best to use Courage and Spirit of the Bull.  This gives everyone in the group a net gain of 66 HP and 4 Power.  Courage and Spirit of the Bull also adds STR which is good for the tanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In a solo situation it is best to use Auspice since you get an increase of 71 HP and 43 Power.</DIV>

Leji
01-01-2005, 12:39 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Litre wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Actually, that's incorrect.  You are correct in that the AC component doesn't stack, but there is no non-beneficial side-effects to having both on.  Actually, quite the contrary.  Below are my findings:</BLOCKQUOTE> <P>No spells on at all: Health - 893, Power  - 778, AC - 1214</P> <P>Courage only: Health - 913, Power - 782, AC - 1291</P> <P>Badger only: Health - 893, Power - 796, AC 1441</P> <P>Courage & Badger (courage cast first): Health - 913, Power - 796, AC - 1441</P> <P>Courage & Badger (badger cast first): Health - 913, Power - 796, AC - 1441</P> <P>So, it would seem that having both on does not increase your AC, but it most definitely increases your health, and the health of your group mates.  The reason why I noticed the AC increase when I was in my late teens was that I must not have had badger yet.  Our guild was striving to guild level 5, and the only thing I remember is that I was in my late teens (I did not yet have bear form, so I couldn't have been 20).  Hence, the increase in AC from courage made a distinct difference.  So, nothwithstanding the evidence that adding courage gives no additional AC boost over badger, AC is still a valuable component in damage avoidance/mitigation and should be used where available.</P> <P>Based on these findings, I will continue to cast courage until I have a complete replacement for it.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I just did it a few seconds ago.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No buff : 1593ac</DIV> <DIV>Courage alone : 1707ac</DIV> <DIV>Courage and Badger : 1707ac</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No buff : 1593ac</DIV> <DIV>Badger alone : 1859ac</DIV> <DIV>Badger and Courage : 1859ac</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This has been confirmed by multiple other shamen online. This stacking weirdness also apply to other classes. Clerics and bards confirmed this to me.</DIV> <DIV>If you honestly did the test as i said how to do it, then consider yourself lucky because you're one of the rares for who the stacking works properly for some reason.</DIV>

PoisenLoaf
01-01-2005, 03:09 AM
<DIV>I just tested this as well.  I had Courage, Badger, and Bull on in a group with a Templar who was running Daring and Transal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I cancelled Courage and in fact, everybody's AC went UP!  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also cancelled Spiritual Seal and no stats changed!  Recasting it yielded no stat change!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My guess is that the Templar's Daring and Transal overrides my Courage and Seal respectively.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So now when I'm grouped with a Templar, I run Badger, Bull, Bear, and Auspice.</DIV>

Lit
01-01-2005, 03:09 AM
<DIV>Do you have other buffs on?  I just did this test and my results are the same as what I posted above.  Casting order made no difference whatsoever, my stats were the same with badger/courage no matter what order I casted them in.</DIV>

Triyton
01-01-2005, 04:38 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Litre wrote:<BR> <DIV>Do you have other buffs on?  I just did this test and my results are the same as what I posted above.  Casting order made no difference whatsoever, my stats were the same with badger/courage no matter what order I casted them in.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Are they both of the same level (probably Apprentice III).  If not, maybe one is automatically overiding the other in your case, making the casting order irrelevant for you.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>On a related note, watch for when two priests are grouped together, especially two Mystics.  Only one can use the same group buff at a time, the better one appears to override the lesser.  You may find you have a concentration slot or two free for a buff you wouldn't normally use, e.g. Auspice.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Lit
01-01-2005, 11:21 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Triyton wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>On a related note, watch for when two priests are grouped together, especially two Mystics.  Only one can use the same group buff at a time, the better one appears to override the lesser.  You may find you have a concentration slot or two free for a buff you wouldn't normally use, e.g. Auspice.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yep, I'm aware of this and use it to my advantage frequently.  I am unsure why my results vary from yours, but I've tried it three separate times now, and the results have been consistent.  Courage is app3, badger is adept 1.<BR>

Triyton
01-03-2005, 11:15 PM
<DIV>That is exactly what I am saying.  Take a look at one of the earlier messages:</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <P>Cast Courage, then Badger. Take note of the AC.</P> <P>Click both off.</P> <P>Cast Badger, then Courage. Take note of the AC.</P> <P>Do it.</P> <P>Notice that in the first case Courage is actually detrimental to you.<BR> <HR> </P> <P>If the spells are both App3 or both Adept1, then the prior presence of Courage could be keeping the later casting of Badger (the better spell) from taking full effect.  In your case, your Badger is Adept 1 but your Courage is only App 3.  The higher-tiered Badger spell could be overriding the Courage spell even when it is cast second, making the order it is cast irrelevant <U>in your case</U> even though it affects many other Mystics.</P> <P> </P>