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Merrygr
12-28-2004, 02:29 PM
<DIV>I'm quoting this out of context:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"No wards means more power for my DoTs, and he stops taking that annoying massive damage that sometimes happens when a ward goes down due to a large hit. The remaining damage goes straight to his hp, without being mitigated by armor, and that can often break a combat for us."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is it true that a big hit that eats up a ward (none AC mitigated) also does its full (remaning) unmitigated damage to the tank? Or is this just the case with special attacks that would have ignored AC regardless?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So if a hit for say 200 uses 100 to eat up ward, will it then do another 100 to tank or will the remaning 100 be partialy mitigated by AC and land for say 50?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If it does land for full I consider it something that should be bugged. Even with a lot of shamans complaining about the ward being weak, it should not allow damage that would not have happened to get to the tank. That is like us casting a damage spell on our tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV>

Banditman
12-28-2004, 08:20 PM
<DIV>Without getting too much into the numbers, did you just pull those out of the air or has there been some work done on AC mitigation that indicated 50% is the right level ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I mean holy cripes!  If it really is 50% I'd need to do a mana cost analysis in a serious kind of way with regards to Wards vs instant heals.</DIV>

Merrygr
12-29-2004, 12:03 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR> <DIV>Without getting too much into the numbers, did you just pull those out of the air or has there been some work done on AC mitigation that indicated 50% is the right level ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I mean holy cripes!  If it really is 50% I'd need to do a mana cost analysis in a serious kind of way with regards to Wards vs instant heals.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Aye, I pulled the numbers out of thin air. I read the part that I qouted in another post and was wondering if it was true. My made up numbers are just a consequence of the quote being true. I kind of doubt that it is true, but having seen hp go down in a big chunk just as ward drops I can see it being true.</P> <P>So if the quote is true and you get an unlucky attack at the wrong moment you might as well have nuked your tank yourself instead of putting a ward on him/her.</P>

bou
12-29-2004, 12:54 PM
We need to know how many % of the damage that is mitigated to make a fair judgement.Anyone that knows how much damage is mitigated from someone if that person has AC 1000?

Banditman
12-29-2004, 10:41 PM
<DIV>The answer to mitigation is that it depends, in very large part, upon the level of the tank compared to the level of the mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've read a bit on the Guardian forums, and while armor does play a significant role, level is of equal importance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The way we see this is that against higher con mobs (yellow^^ or greater) we find that Brawlers are no longer a viable tank, since their AC mitigation is negligible.  Brawlers tanking is based on avoidance, which breaks down against those tough mobs.  Guardians on the other hand lose the avoidance side of their equation (while this isnt as large as Brawlers, its still there and statistically significant) but their AC mitigation still works against those tough mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Syrel
12-29-2004, 11:32 PM
There is probably some truth to the statement about the DoT's. Last night I was grouped with a cleric who was using his reactive heals. (hit/heal). While the ward was up, no healing took place. When the ward went down, suddenly their health was shooting up.Right now it seems like wards are good for the initial pull, then we begin to rely on our debuffs. At least when grouped with a templar.

BigDa
12-30-2004, 03:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Syrel wrote:<BR>...Right now it seems like wards are good for the initial pull, then we begin to rely on our debuffs. At least when grouped with a templar.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I'm finding more and more that my wards do <EM>nothing</EM> for the initial pull.  Higher level mobs are more and more having hoards of special attacks that slide straight through the wards.  Warding before fights was the only up-side to ward based healing and now I'm seeing them time-out while the mobs blast the tank with specials forcing me to instant-heal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm starting to sound like a moaner, but this is getting frustrating.  An average to tough fight is looking like this: -</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I double-ward the tank and regain a little power while he pulls.</DIV> <DIV>The mobs throws hoards of specials straight through the wards while I try and slow and debuff it</DIV> <DIV>I (barely in time) instant heal the tank a couple of times</DIV> <DIV>I throw in a couple of DoTs</DIV> <DIV>I re-apply the timed-out wards</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>I instant heal the tank while the mob runs out of power</DIV>I reapply slow and debuffs</DIV> <DIV>I /gsay "Out Of Power"</DIV> <DIV>I stand there swinging my wimpy weapon while the tanks grits his teeth and hovers just above death</DIV> <DIV>We <EM>just</EM> finish the mob by everyone blowing their power</DIV> <DIV>We sit around for a few minutes panting overtly and wondering about getting a templar or a warden</DIV> <DIV>I wonder whether to forget about wards next fight</DIV> <DIV>I wonder whether to go play my Bard</DIV>

re
12-30-2004, 04:19 PM
<blockquote><hr>BigDave wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Syrel wrote:<BR>...Right now it seems like wards are good for the initial pull, then we begin to rely on our debuffs. At least when grouped with a templar.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV>I'm finding more and more that my wards do <EM>nothing</EM> for the initial pull. Higher level mobs are more and more having hoards of special attacks that slide straight through the wards. Warding before fights was the only up-side to ward based healing and now I'm seeing them time-out while the mobs blast the tank with specials forcing me to instant-heal.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I'm starting to sound like a moaner, but this is getting frustrating. An average to tough fight is looking like this: -</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I double-ward the tank and regain a little power while he pulls.</DIV><DIV>The mobs throws hoards of specials straight through the wards while I try and slow and debuff it</DIV><DIV>I (barely in time) instant heal the tank a couple of times</DIV><DIV>I throw in a couple of DoTs</DIV><DIV>I re-apply the timed-out wards</DIV><DIV><DIV>I instant heal the tank while the mob runs out of power</DIV>I reapply slow and debuffs</DIV><DIV>I /gsay "Out Of Power"</DIV><DIV>I stand there swinging my wimpy weapon while the tanks grits his teeth and hovers just above death</DIV><DIV>We <EM>just</EM> finish the mob by everyone blowing their power</DIV><DIV>We sit around for a few minutes panting overtly and wondering about getting a templar or a warden</DIV><DIV>I wonder whether to forget about wards next fight</DIV><DIV>I wonder whether to go play my Bard</DIV><hr></blockquote>Big Dave, your problem is that you're not getting those debuffs on right away. Mystic healing is just as much about debuffs and it is ward, and even more so than healing. Get the ward up (I do fine with a single ward), then immediatly put all your debuffs on (ward / heal (but ward more) as neccisary in between debuffs if your wards are running out). Once those debuffs are on you really never need to cast a healing spell again, and keep an eye on those debuff timers and you'll want to make sure you reapply them if the fight lasts that long.Mystic debuffs do two things, slow the mob, and cripple their offense skills, your debuffs keep damage from being inflicted in the first place, and they are the front line of your healing skills.

Merrygr
12-30-2004, 04:42 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rego wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BigDave wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Syrel wrote:<BR>...Right now it seems like wards are good for the initial pull, then we begin to rely on our debuffs. At least when grouped with a templar.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I'm finding more and more that my wards do <EM>nothing</EM> for the initial pull. Higher level mobs are more and more having hoards of special attacks that slide straight through the wards. Warding before fights was the only up-side to ward based healing and now I'm seeing them time-out while the mobs blast the tank with specials forcing me to instant-heal.</DIV> <DIV>I'm starting to sound like a moaner, but this is getting frustrating. An average to tough fight is looking like this: -</DIV> <DIV>I double-ward the tank and regain a little power while he pulls.</DIV> <DIV>The mobs throws hoards of specials straight through the wards while I try and slow and debuff it</DIV> <DIV>I (barely in time) instant heal the tank a couple of times</DIV> <DIV>I throw in a couple of DoTs</DIV> <DIV>I re-apply the timed-out wards</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>I instant heal the tank while the mob runs out of power</DIV>I reapply slow and debuffs</DIV> <DIV>I /gsay "Out Of Power"</DIV> <DIV>I stand there swinging my wimpy weapon while the tanks grits his teeth and hovers just above death</DIV> <DIV>We <EM>just</EM> finish the mob by everyone blowing their power</DIV> <DIV>We sit around for a few minutes panting overtly and wondering about getting a templar or a warden</DIV> <DIV>I wonder whether to forget about wards next fight</DIV> <DIV>I wonder whether to go play my Bard</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Big Dave, your problem is that you're not getting those debuffs on right away. Mystic healing is just as much about debuffs and it is ward, and even more so than healing. Get the ward up (I do fine with a single ward), then immediatly put all your debuffs on (ward / heal (but ward more) as neccisary in between debuffs if your wards are running out). Once those debuffs are on you really never need to cast a healing spell again, and keep an eye on those debuff timers and you'll want to make sure you reapply them if the fight lasts that long.<BR><BR>Mystic debuffs do two things, slow the mob, and cripple their offense skills, your debuffs keep damage from being inflicted in the first place, and they are the front line of your healing skills.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I find that our debuffs do very little against a group encounter (multi mob, not ^^).<BR>

BigDa
12-30-2004, 06:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rego wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BigDave wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Syrel wrote:<BR>...Right now it seems like wards are good for the initial pull, then we begin to rely on our debuffs. At least when grouped with a templar.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I'm finding more and more that my wards do <EM>nothing</EM> for the initial pull. Higher level mobs are more and more having hoards of special attacks that slide straight through the wards. Warding before fights was the only up-side to ward based healing and now I'm seeing them time-out while the mobs blast the tank with specials forcing me to instant-heal.</DIV> <DIV>I'm starting to sound like a moaner, but this is getting frustrating. An average to tough fight is looking like this: -</DIV> <DIV>I double-ward the tank and regain a little power while he pulls.</DIV> <DIV>The mobs throws hoards of specials straight through the wards while I try and slow and debuff it</DIV> <DIV>I (barely in time) instant heal the tank a couple of times</DIV> <DIV>I throw in a couple of DoTs</DIV> <DIV>I re-apply the timed-out wards</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>I instant heal the tank while the mob runs out of power</DIV>I reapply slow and debuffs</DIV> <DIV>I /gsay "Out Of Power"</DIV> <DIV>I stand there swinging my wimpy weapon while the tanks grits his teeth and hovers just above death</DIV> <DIV>We <EM>just</EM> finish the mob by everyone blowing their power</DIV> <DIV>We sit around for a few minutes panting overtly and wondering about getting a templar or a warden</DIV> <DIV>I wonder whether to forget about wards next fight</DIV> <DIV>I wonder whether to go play my Bard</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Big Dave, your problem is that you're not getting those debuffs on right away. Mystic healing is just as much about debuffs and it is ward, and even more so than healing. Get the ward up (I do fine with a single ward), then immediatly put all your debuffs on (ward / heal (but ward more) as neccisary in between debuffs if your wards are running out). Once those debuffs are on you really never need to cast a healing spell again, and keep an eye on those debuff timers and you'll want to make sure you reapply them if the fight lasts that long.<BR><BR>Mystic debuffs do two things, slow the mob, and cripple their offense skills, your debuffs keep damage from being inflicted in the first place, and they are the front line of your healing skills.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>You're right if it's a single target and even then I often find the tank will be dead by the time I get a slow on *shrug*.  It depends on the target of course.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our slows are awesome, but that doesn't change how useless the wards are.  I'm not saying mystics are useless - I am saying wards are fast becoming useless.</DIV>

Banditman
12-31-2004, 02:08 AM
<DIV>The only way debuffs could be a part of healing is if the following conditions are true:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.  Debuff must be instant cast.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2.  Debuff must be unresistable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3.  Debuff must affect all mobs in an encounter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4.  Debuff must be mana free.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If any of those are false, debuffs are not a part of healing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Remember the golden rule:  HPS must be greater than or equal to DPS.</DIV>

re
12-31-2004, 03:50 AM
<blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:<DIV>The only way debuffs could be a part of healing is if the following conditions are true:</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>1. Debuff must be instant cast.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>2. Debuff must be unresistable.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>3. Debuff must affect all mobs in an encounter.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>4. Debuff must be mana free.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>If any of those are false, debuffs are not a part of healing.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Remember the golden rule: HPS must be greater than or equal to DPS.</DIV><hr></blockquote>hogwash, pure hogwash. you have nothing to back up your rediculous claims.I've been the primary and only healer countless of times, amd most of the time without even a fighter to serve as tank. I've never had a problem keeping my crew alive and its because I get those debuffs on. I have experiance to back up my claims that being a mystic make me an extremly capable main and only healer. You have to take the mystic's total package, you can't single out a subsection and claim that your class can't play healer. Use all the tools in your toolbox and you'll see that the mystic is extremly capable.The only things I can say that are making your unable to do your job are:-Taking on mobs way out of your groups leauge-Tank role having poor equipment-Using non upgraded spells-Lack of understanding on how to play your classit could be one, or a combination of these that are leading to your problem.

re
12-31-2004, 03:51 AM
<blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:<DIV>The only way debuffs could be a part of healing is if the following conditions are true:</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>1. Debuff must be instant cast.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>2. Debuff must be unresistable.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>3. Debuff must affect all mobs in an encounter.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>4. Debuff must be mana free.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>If any of those are false, debuffs are not a part of healing.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Remember the golden rule: HPS must be greater than or equal to DPS.</DIV><hr></blockquote>poppycock. you have nothing to back up your rediculous claims.I've been the primary and only healer countless of times, amd most of the time without even a fighter to serve as tank. I've never had a problem keeping my crew alive and its because I get those debuffs on. I have experiance to back up my claims that being a mystic make me an extremly capable main and only healer. You have to take the mystic's total package, you can't single out a subsection and claim that your class can't play healer. Use all the tools in your toolbox and you'll see that the mystic is extremly capable.The only things I can say that are making your unable to do your job are:-Taking on mobs way out of your groups leauge-Tank role having poor equipment-Using non upgraded spells-Lack of understanding on how to play your classit could be one, or a combination of these that are leading to your problem.

kenji
12-31-2004, 06:31 AM
<DIV>well....mystic is just too weak compare to templer...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>same group, same lvl, same lvl 39 mob (red^^ at 32)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>10 fights each. debuffs land almost 33% in these fights</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>end up like this</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>10 fights 6 of them mystic OOP, 4 fights debuffs landed at start, 30% power left</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>10 fights 10 of them templer 50%+ power</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1 of the reason, Templer reactive heal ~60 power heals >600 hp when Mystic ward ~60 power absorb ~350 real dmg...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Debuffs not always work , and recast time is 10+ sec, resist 2 times then your group screwed, but HEAL always hit, never resist... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>many players always think healer is healer, but i tell u, they r all difference classes, and not even close to same range of healing ability</DIV>

Escere
12-31-2004, 10:34 AM
<DIV>You should look into taking mobs that are not 7 Levels above you, your debuffs tend to stick alot more when your taking mobs closer to your level or at least within 5 levels of your own.  I almost always group with a guildmate Templar and he alway complains how he feels subpar to myself when we are together.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Escreal SilentSpear</DIV> <DIV>31 Mystic</DIV> <DIV>Blackburrow</DIV><p>Message Edited by Escereal on <span class=date_text>12-30-2004</span> <span class=time_text>09:36 PM</span>

BigDa
12-31-2004, 02:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Escereal wrote:<BR> <DIV>You should look into taking mobs that are not 7 Levels above you, your debuffs tend to stick alot more when your taking mobs closer to your level or at least within 5 levels of your own.  I almost always group with a guildmate Templar and he alway complains how he feels subpar to myself when we are together.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I hear what you are saying and I agree with your examples.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The issue is, however, that while we may well rule against mobs closer to our level, groups do not wish to fight mobs close to their level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It may not be right, but in my experience, groups I am in come across encounters where templars rule FAR more often than where mystics do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Make wards post mitigation and the issue would be SO much reduced.  *sigh*</DIV>

Merrygr
12-31-2004, 03:28 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kenjiso wrote:<BR> <DIV>well....mystic is just too weak compare to templer...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>same group, same lvl, same lvl 39 mob (red^^ at 32)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>10 fights each. debuffs land almost 33% in these fights</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>end up like this</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>10 fights 6 of them mystic OOP, 4 fights debuffs landed at start, 30% power left</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>10 fights 10 of them templer 50%+ power</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1 of the reason, Templer reactive heal ~60 power heals >600 hp when Mystic ward ~60 power absorb ~350 real dmg...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Debuffs not always work , and recast time is 10+ sec, resist 2 times then your group screwed, but HEAL always hit, never resist... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>many players always think healer is healer, but i tell u, they r all difference classes, and not even close to same range of healing ability</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>If those numbers are true (it is actually the first time a see a straight comparison instead of people just playig with numbers), it does show a big problem.</P> <P>One can argue all day long that a shaman is an efficient only healer in a group (I do this all the time and it works), but if another priest does the same job better than us, we are broken. No ifs or butts about it.</P> <P>Personally I think that the only way to get SOE to look into an issue like this is to send them logs (and post them here) that prove that other priests are more efficient than us.</P> <P><BR> </P>

Merrygr
12-31-2004, 03:35 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rego wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR> <DIV>The only way debuffs could be a part of healing is if the following conditions are true:</DIV> <DIV>1. Debuff must be instant cast.</DIV> <DIV>2. Debuff must be unresistable.</DIV> <DIV>3. Debuff must affect all mobs in an encounter.</DIV> <DIV>4. Debuff must be mana free.</DIV> <DIV>If any of those are false, debuffs are not a part of healing.</DIV> <DIV>Remember the golden rule: HPS must be greater than or equal to DPS.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>hogwash, pure hogwash. you have nothing to back up your rediculous claims.<BR><BR>I've been the primary and only healer countless of times, amd most of the time without even a fighter to serve as tank. I've never had a problem keeping my crew alive and its because I get those debuffs on. I have experiance to back up my claims that being a mystic make me an extremly capable main and only healer. You have to take the mystic's total package, you can't single out a subsection and claim that your class can't play healer. Use all the tools in your toolbox and you'll see that the mystic is extremly capable.<BR><BR>The only things I can say that are making your unable to do your job are:<BR><BR>-Taking on mobs way out of your groups leauge<BR>-Tank role having poor equipment<BR>-Using non upgraded spells<BR>-Lack of understanding on how to play your class<BR><BR>it could be one, or a combination of these that are leading to your problem.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I pretty much agree with what you say. Except for one major thing,</P> <P>-Taking on mobs way out of your groups leauge</P> <P>You are talking about our ability to function as an only helaer in a group. I do this all the time, but it is my capabilities (most of the time) that dictate what is way out of our leauge. Now if the group can take on harder mobs by replacing me with an equally skilled (as good or as bad) cleric (or druid) then Mystics are broken.</P> <P>Personally I have never ever argued that we can't work as a sole healer. We can. The thing I'm wondering about is if we are a lot worse in that role than other healers. I have yet to see conclusive proof that we are worse, but I have seen lots of indications that we are.</P> <P><BR> </P>

Merrygr
12-31-2004, 03:37 PM
<DIV>Well, this thread has gone astray from my original question and is now just another thread about shamans vs clerics.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My original question remains unanswered, but we might as well just let this thread die and continue the ward vs other heals in the other threads.</DIV>

Banditman
12-31-2004, 08:26 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Merrygrin wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well, this thread has gone astray from my original question and is now just another thread about shamans vs clerics.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only person who can actually answer your original question is a Dev unfortunately.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We have no way of knowing how much raw damage a hit is supposed to do, which is what we need to answer your question.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For instance . . . .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A Ward has 200 HP left, and a hit comes along that knocks off the Ward plus 100 HP.  So . . . was the hit actually a 300 pt hit . . . was it a 400 point hit that got mitigated to 100 . . . we just don't know, and can't know because that information is not available to us.</DIV>

Banditman
12-31-2004, 08:29 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rego wrote:<BR><BR><BR>hogwash, pure hogwash. you have nothing to back up your rediculous claims.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>Actually I do.</P> <P>If you would take the time to read some of the other posts here you'll see that I've provided numerical analysis on why Wards are currently underpowered and why debuffs should NOT be considered a part of that.</P> <P>I have **NEVER** said that Shaman cannot function as sole healer.  What I have said, repeatedly, is that in order for us to function as such we must work a lot harder and have a far slimmer margin for error.</P> <P>Perhaps instead of going off on a rant-page you should take the time to read some of the other information here that other Shaman have compiled and I've helped bring together.</P> <P><BR> </P>

Leji
01-01-2005, 12:47 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Merrygrin wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The only things I can say that are making your unable to do your job are:<BR><BR>-Taking on mobs way out of your groups leauge<BR></P> <P> <HR> </P> <P> </P> <P>Ok, so you're saying the shamen have no room to complain against orange and red cons because these mobs are out of their group league.</P> <P>Well, somehow these mobs are not out of the group league when a templar is the healer. Yet, you claim that it is when a shaman is the healer and you still have the nerve to say it's not an issue related to the healer but rather a poor choice of targets from the group?</P> <P> </P> <P>That's just wrong : that would not be a poor choice of target if a Templar was healing. This right there shows that it is the healer that is dictating the targets the group can kill and thus shows that indeed shamen are inferior to templars, since the group as a whole can take on bigger things when a Templar instead of a Mystic.</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>

Merrygr
01-01-2005, 01:50 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lejina wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Merrygrin wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The only things I can say that are making your unable to do your job are:<BR><BR>-Taking on mobs way out of your groups leauge<BR></P> <P> <HR> <P></P> <P> </P> <P>Ok, so you're saying the shamen have no room to complain against orange and red cons because these mobs are out of their group league.</P> <P>Well, somehow these mobs are not out of the group league when a templar is the healer. Yet, you claim that it is when a shaman is the healer and you still have the nerve to say it's not an issue related to the healer but rather a poor choice of targets from the group?</P> <P> </P> <P>That's just wrong : that would not be a poor choice of target if a Templar was healing. This right there shows that it is the healer that is dictating the targets the group can kill and thus shows that indeed shamen are inferior to templars, since the group as a whole can take on bigger things when a Templar instead of a Mystic.</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Uhh???</P> <P>Did you quote half of my post (where I quouted another poster) and then argue against me on the exact points where we agree? Or did I miss something?</P> <P>I also think that shaman would be broken if we dictate a range of mobs that are lower range than if a cleric in the same group dictated the range. If we enable a group to take on orange con and a cleric enables same group to take red, that shows that we are not equal in power. Which is exactly what I wrote in the post you are quoting.<BR></P>

Banditman
01-01-2005, 02:04 AM
<DIV>Put your foot down!  Stop quote abuse!</DIV>

Leji
01-01-2005, 04:19 AM
<DIV>That was meant as a quote/reply to Rego.</DIV> <DIV>That quoting of quotes gets confusing~</DIV>

Syrel
01-04-2005, 12:47 AM
I'm finding we do just fine against a single mob. Whether he be large or not. We'll have to work at it, but we can do it. However, if there is a group of mobs we begin to fail miserably. Between the cast/recast times on our debuffs and the power issues for having to cast all of that. The tank is getting torn up, people panic, aggro starts wandering and we're forced into group wards and heals.I think mitigated warding is the key for sure.

cas
01-04-2005, 03:23 AM
<DIV>Now I may only be lvl 27..  But I have had no problem what so ever fighting..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I solo heal I duo heal...  I have had all 6 healers to duo with granted some mixed results but nothing a little thought process of group can't fix..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We can keep a Monk type alive longer than a Cleric type can..  and a Cleric type can keep a Warrior type alive longer than we can..  </DIV> <DIV>(Druids im sorry not enough playtime to even try to attempt your healing abilities <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I generally like to only fight orange and red group mobs be it multiple ^ or ^^..  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Am I able to do this because of my lvl and later in life we drastically go down or what please explain when we start to fall behind a Cleric type class in keeping a group ALIVE..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks in advance</DIV>

Myros
01-04-2005, 04:57 PM
<DIV>In regards to the original question and the answer that only the devs would know. Not exactly true, a simple experiment would yield the results.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fight a mob at 1 or maybe 2 levels above you with no wards. Fight a few of these and establish the "normal" range of its damage after your AC mitigation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Say for example the results are 50 avg with a range of 40 min - 60 max per hit, the important number would be the maximum it hit you for on a non-special attack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now repeat with the ward active and note the amount of damage dealt to you on the hit directly after a ward breaks. You would have to do quite a few runs of this to establish an average and to see if the max differs. If the max damage after a ward breaks on a non-special attack is never greater than the max damage from the un-warded baseline then we know the problem doesnt exist. But if for example you see non-special attacks landing for 100+ post ward break then it could indicate a problem.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I ran a couple of tests myself and the damage was within the "normal" range, though Id have to do a lot more tests to establish this for sure.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>M</DIV>