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Mystiq
12-27-2004, 04:59 AM
<DIV><IMG src="http://home.ripway.com/2004-12/223120/EQ%20II/hmmmmm.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well it's good that we have two wards that do in fact stack, in case anyone else was still wondering. Unfortunately only Spectral Ward and either Ancestral Ward or Ancestral Aegis stack, not the two Ancestrals, which are the two best. What I don't like here is these hits landing on me through <EM>both wards</EM>, let alone <EM>one.</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV>Here is my new picture summing up my opinion of the ward issue as it stands now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thoughts?</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Eloora on <SPAN class=date_text>01-11-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:05 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Eloora on <span class=date_text>01-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:43 PM</span>

leatia
12-27-2004, 07:34 AM
Special attacks have always blown right through wards.. at least for as long as I've looked at logs. This has always been a gripe of mine since high damage Wild Swings and the like invariably make wards usefulness nothing more than a dice roll for amount of special attacks dealt.Of particular interest are the damages reported by your log as being normal swings. I can only theorize these might have been also special attacks, but without a dedicated message. I have a warrior and when using other special attacks, I don't remember if all special attacks report as being special attack damage (i.e. some of the 12-25 specials I *believe* just show in logs as normal swings even though they were a power-consuming special slash/swing). I will also say something has happened recently to make wards even more useless- obviously some sort of class balancing. My housemate's mid 20's mystic has always been able to solo double ^^ greens in TStepps, then after the big downtime patch mid December, when servers finally came back up, she can no longer do so. Moreover, I fetched my shaman and also experienced the same thing. With ward + slow + delusion, these mobs would knock us down to below 50% health in seconds, whereas in the past slowed + warded, they were a tough fight but 100% doable (usually out of power and around 60% health by fight end). Now you have to run before the mob is even 10% damaged. It was that strong of a nerf- yielding these mobs damage output through wards substantially higher. Was your construct an ^ or ^^ mob? I have a sneaking suspicion their "Group" vs "Solo" mob tuning has now made mobs dish out more ward-bypassing attacks in order to discourage Mystics soloing group ^^ mobs. I'll need to parse a few of her fights but I'm sure it's the same thing since her health would be at 10% while her first ward would blink off... this is WAY different from how things were prior to the patch. I did the 10/10 drowned soldier quest solo at 23.. then pulling in her 25 shaman, there is absolutely no chance of taking these down solo anymore.

Galaa-
12-27-2004, 08:13 PM
<DIV> <DIV>Im a lv 14 Shammy. Today while soloing, I tested out the wards stacking. I casted Spectral ward, and was getting hit by a blue con fallen orc for around 20-26dmg average. Next, I tested stacking Ward of spirit and Spectral Wards (both icons showing on my buff bar). I tested against blue con fallen orc again. Everytime the orc hits me, I received 2 messages, saying my ward is absorbing 20+dmg each.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is the wards stacking correctly? Wheever I receive a hit, there's 2 messages, so I assume both my wards are taking dmg. I understand its supposed to be one ward taking dmg, (the higher lvl ward 1st) and after its down, then the lower lvl ward kicks in.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bugged?</DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by Galaa-SG on <span class=date_text>12-27-2004</span> <span class=time_text>07:14 AM</span>

Banditman
12-27-2004, 11:23 PM
<DIV>Spectral Ward and Wards of Spirit are simply single target and group versions of the same spell.</DIV>

Mystiq
12-28-2004, 12:04 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> leatia wrote:<BR>Special attacks have always blown right through wards.. at least for as long as I've looked at logs. This has always been a gripe of mine since high damage Wild Swings and the like invariably make wards usefulness nothing more than a dice roll for amount of special attacks dealt.<BR><BR>Of particular interest are the damages reported by your log as being normal swings. I can only theorize these might have been also special attacks, but without a dedicated message. I have a warrior and when using other special attacks, I don't remember if all special attacks report as being special attack damage (i.e. some of the 12-25 specials I *believe* just show in logs as normal swings even though they were a power-consuming special slash/swing). <BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I always had a suspsion that special attacks got through, I'm just not sure if all of them do or only some, and whether this is a bug or intentional.</P> <P>As for the regular hits, they should absolutely not be there. There are no attacks that make you press a button and cost power that do not show their name along with their damage....at least, not for us. If the mobs, who are supposed to be accessing the same special abilities that we are, have specials with no names eating through two wards, I'd like to know about it.<BR></P>

leatia
12-28-2004, 03:33 AM
Elora-I've noted at least two changes since opening week with mystics + wards:1) Somewhere around the end of November/beginning of December, character parry/evade was added for when a character is warded. Around this time, my logs started trickling ".. tries to hit YOU, but misses." or "you parry" etc.etc. For a while, not a single evade could be found between ward application and ward fall- as if a warded character always took full unmitigated damage AND no evade roll was performed prior. Now logs are riddled with misses, parries, ripostes, etc.etc. prior to ward falling.2) Special attacks frequency for named, ^ or ^^ mobs seem to be clustered around ward usage. Again, my housemate's experience that causes me to fetch another alt Mystic and try them out. Suddenly double ^^ greenies that were 100% success rate were completely undoable do to complete ineffectivity of wards on the shaman. Special attacks always blew threw wards from my oldest logs. After the December 15th-17th down time, a lot of mobs started doing substantially MORE damage through wards. It's either as the logs above suggest (i.e. some normal swings are actually getting through wards) -OR- special attack frequency has been increased + not reporting properly back to the player as being special attacks.I'd also ask anyone that two-boxes or has local friends with meleer's to test this with wards on a secondary target and /log. Perhaps this nerf is only for wards on self-target? If this nerf also applies to when you throw a ward on another group member, they have become pretty much useless.

Banditman
12-28-2004, 08:32 PM
<DIV>We really need to know how AC mitigation works, and get some ball park estimates on how much damage is actually soaked up in mitigation as a percentage of total possible damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At that point, we can start to run numbers on using Wards vs Instant heals for maximum efficiency.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is some anecdotal evidence at this point which suggests that Wards on well equipped tanks are less efficient than simply allowing the damage to occur and healing it instantly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Does anyone have these mana costs handy . . . I can't find them anywhere outside the game.  (stuck at work, can't get in game to check myself):</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Minor Arch Healing:  51</DIV> <DIV>Totemic Aid:  53</DIV> <DIV>Healing Ritual</DIV> <DIV>Ancestral Ward</DIV> <DIV>Spectral Ward:  55</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even without the mitigation information, we can find out what the break even is just using the mana costs on those spells.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit:  Adding some power costs I dug up.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Banditman on <span class=date_text>12-28-2004</span> <span class=time_text>08:13 AM</span>

Banditman
12-28-2004, 09:28 PM
<DIV>Double post.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Banditman on <span class=date_text>12-28-2004</span> <span class=time_text>08:39 AM</span>

Banditman
12-28-2004, 09:28 PM
<DIV>The math side of me got interested, so here are some rather interesting numbers:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At zero mitigation:</DIV> <DIV><BR>MAH:   51/182/3.57  <BR>TA:    53/188/3.55<BR>HR:  75/401/5.34</DIV> <DIV>BoV:  55/510/9.27</DIV> <DIV>Reg:  55/480/8.72</DIV> <DIV>SW:    55/403/7.33</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At 25% mitigation:</DIV> <DIV><BR>MAH:  51/182/3.57<BR>TA:  53/188/3.55</DIV> <DIV>HR:  75/401/5.34</DIV> <DIV>BoV:  55/510/9.27 <DIV>Reg:  55/480/8.72</DIV>SW:  55/302/5.49</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At 50% mitigation:</DIV> <DIV><BR>MAH:  51/182/3.57<BR>TA:  53/188/3.55</DIV> <DIV>HR:  75/401/5.34<BR>BoV:  55/510/9.27 </DIV> <DIV>Reg:  55/480/8.72</DIV> <DIV>SW:  55/201/3.65</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Legend:  MAH = Minor Arch Healing, TA = Totemic Aid, SW = Spectral Ward, BoV = Blessing of Vitae, Reg = Regrowth, HR = Healing Ritual.  The numbers are:  Mana Cost / HP Healed after mitigation / HP healed per Mana point</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, at zero mitigation, we see that Spectral Ward is by far the most efficient at 7.33 HP per mana.  Since SW comes before mitigation, this is expected.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, at 25% mitigation, here's what happens.  The efficiency of TA and MAH stay the same.  They have always healed post mitigation and so they dont care what the level of mitigation is, they stay the same.  However, Spectral Ward changes.  A lot.  At 25% mitigation, a 400 point hit would do 300 points of damage to a tank.  So, we lose 100 points of "healing" in formula.  SW absorbs the full 400 point hit, but it only HEALED 300 points of damage.  Now it's efficiency is down to 5.49 HP per mana.  A lot less efficient, but still significantly better than the other heals.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At 50% mitigation, things totally break down.  A 400 point hit would only do 200 points of damage to the tank.  So we have now lost 200 points of "healing" in the process.  Our SW is down to a mere 3.65 HP / mana efficiency - for all intents and purposes it's now the same as TA and MAH.  This is where we are starting to see reports of instant heals being more efficient than Wards.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If mitigation were to exceed 50%, I don't know if it does, I don't know if it doesn't, but if it did, SW would no longer be more efficient.  In fact, it would be less so.  Instant heals would be more efficient.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After editing in the values of Blessing of Vitae and Regrowth it becomes pretty glaring how much the efficiency of a Ward drops off as mitigation level increases.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, to go find out if anyone actually knows what those mitigation levels are.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Edit:  Adding in the numbers for Blessing of Vitae and Regrowth for comparison purposes.  Adding Healing Ritual (can someone check the cost on HR - 75 seems a touch low to me, but that is the information I am getting atm).</P><p>Message Edited by Banditman on <span class=date_text>12-28-2004</span> <span class=time_text>09:25 AM</span>

joshie
12-28-2004, 11:31 PM
<DIV>I've been unable to test this, but maybe someone else has seen this in action and can comment:  If two people both have Ward cast on them, and they are both hit with the same Barrage, does it do the same amount of damage to both players (meaning does the Ward absorb the same amount on both)?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know that my tank and I have both been hit with the same Barrage while unwarded and that he normally takes 15-20% less damage than me, which is consistent with our AC difference.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If Barrage does do the same unmitigated damage to both, that may be an important tool for learning about mitigation values.</DIV>

Banditman
12-28-2004, 11:47 PM
<DIV>Or, we could use this data:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=19&message.id=643&page=5" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=19&message.id=643&page=5</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(2nd to last post)</DIV>

Karla
12-29-2004, 03:07 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> leatia wrote:<BR>Special attacks have always blown right through wards.. at least for as long as I've looked at logs. This has always been a gripe of mine since high damage Wild Swings and the like invariably make wards usefulness nothing more than a dice roll for amount of special attacks dealt.<BR><BR>Of particular interest are the damages reported by your log as being normal swings. I can only theorize these might have been also special attacks, but without a dedicated message. I have a warrior and when using other special attacks, I don't remember if all special attacks report as being special attack damage (i.e. some of the 12-25 specials I *believe* just show in logs as normal swings even though they were a power-consuming special slash/swing). <BR><BR>I will also say something has happened recently to make wards even more useless- obviously some sort of class balancing. My housemate's mid 20's mystic has always been able to solo double ^^ greens in TStepps, then after the big downtime patch mid December, when servers finally came back up, she can no longer do so. Moreover, I fetched my shaman and also experienced the same thing. With ward + slow + delusion, these mobs would knock us down to below 50% health in seconds, whereas in the past slowed + warded, they were a tough fight but 100% doable (usually out of power and around 60% health by fight end). Now you have to run before the mob is even 10% damaged. It was that strong of a nerf- yielding these mobs damage output through wards substantially higher. Was your construct an ^ or ^^ mob? <BR><BR>I have a sneaking suspicion their "Group" vs "Solo" mob tuning has now made mobs dish out more ward-bypassing attacks in order to discourage Mystics soloing group ^^ mobs. I'll need to parse a few of her fights but I'm sure it's the same thing since her health would be at 10% while her first ward would blink off... this is WAY different from how things were prior to the patch. I did the 10/10 drowned soldier quest solo at 23.. then pulling in her 25 shaman, there is absolutely no chance of taking these down solo anymore.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Something was definately tweaked or fixed to prevent soloing of group ^^ greens.  I used to solo them all the time, but not anymore.  Wards are definately borked, just need a dev to notice them and fix them now.<BR>

Gnome mercy
12-31-2004, 03:27 PM
<DIV>if you notice in the middle his ward fades...thats the reason why he took regular damage</DIV>

Banditman
12-31-2004, 11:27 PM
<DIV>If you notice, he has TWO wards running, and so one Ward dropping should NOT allow damage to leak thru.  There are also instances of damage leaking thru BOTH running Wards.</DIV>

Gnome mercy
01-02-2005, 01:41 PM
<DIV>Actually say i got 2 wards on me...ancestral and the group ward (pretend they stack) if one guy breaks through my ancestral the rest of the damage goes to me...not the group ward (Wards fo Spirit)...I'm not sure why that happens but it has always happened</DIV>

Ascensionf
01-02-2005, 03:37 PM
It is simple, the code for ward stacking doesnt work and wards dont stack even though the icons do... it's really easy to test, it bugs out and you will take damage with the icon up. If you are having to stack both wards on a tank to keep up MT then you are already sol, keeping around spectral is for when you need to ward 2 people real close together and the mystic version isnt up yet (imo).-quirkwrar

Mystiq
01-04-2005, 09:22 AM
<DIV>I don't really care about the somantics for whether different types of wards stack. The issue here is that there is absolutely regular, non special-attack hits going through wards and damaging the warded as the ward still sits on him to its eventual dropping. That doesn't jive with me.</DIV>

Merrygr
01-04-2005, 11:24 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eloora wrote:<BR> <DIV>I don't really care about the somantics for whether different types of wards stack. The issue here is that there is absolutely regular, non special-attack hits going through wards and damaging the warded as the ward still sits on him to its eventual dropping. That doesn't jive with me.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm with you on this one. Why on earth do the normal hits go through? I can't say I have ever seen this personally, so maybe this is a special case? Is it something you can reproduce or was that a one time thing?</P> <P>Could it be due to the stacked wards (as in a bug with stacked wards)? </P> <P>Something is not right I think.<BR></P> <p>Message Edited by Merrygrin on <span class=date_text>01-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:25 AM</span>

Mystiq
01-04-2005, 01:04 PM
<DIV>I've noticed something else lately while playing my monk alt....you know how many shaman type gnolls there are in antonica right? Well guess what - my monks special attacks <EM>don't get thru the mobs' wards, </EM>let alone regular hits. I can't exactly prove this because all I see is "Your target's ward absorbed 50 points of damage" or whatever...it doesn't say whether I used any specials or not. I know it's happening though, I mean, what sub-level 20 newb melee doesn't spam their specials? That's some BS....</DIV>

bou
01-04-2005, 02:16 PM
That is.. not good. If the wards actually can work like we want them to and do that for the mobs I guess the devs have choosen to give us the players the crappy version on purpose.Would be nice with some definite answers, is the wards working as intended or not and if not, is the devs looking into it or not. If nothing else it lets us move on to other topics of disussion and some might reconsider their choice of character if this is the way they are supposed to work, myself included. My guess is they arn't working as intended, they cant be after your post here and the naked guardian vs ward post and so many more which states that something is wrong and unbalanced.

Nahlis
01-05-2005, 01:18 AM
<DIV>Just curious... has anyone yet collected the fine data points in this thread, particularly the bit about wards working more effectively for mobs than for players, and /bugged it to the Dev's?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hate to think this is just a bug that they are unaware of.  I know it's been discussed in the boards a lot, but ya never really know what the Dev's see here and what they don't.</DIV>

Banditman
01-05-2005, 02:01 AM
<DIV>I just noticed something here . . . .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I cannot explain the hits that appear to be "regular" melee hits going thru the Ward, however it appears that the special hits that go thru Ward are all AE types.  Wild Swing is the one shown here, which is a frontal AE.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Perhaps there is a problem with all AE code that is allowing AE damage to sneak by the Ward.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This could ALSO potentially explain how and why some attacks seem to go directly to the tank HP after breaking down a Ward.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>Edit:  I think I just figured out those "regular" hits.</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Notice that the person who posted this log (thank you, very helpful) has their MISSES turned off.  Basically, we aren't seeing his strikes that miss, or are blocked, dodged or . . . RIPOSTED.  My guess is that these regular hits we see cutting thru the Ward are ripostes.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Banditman on <span class=date_text>01-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:03 PM</span>

leatia
01-12-2005, 04:35 AM
<blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:<DIV>I just noticed something here . . . .</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I cannot explain the hits that appear to be "regular" melee hits going thru the Ward, however it appears that the special hits that go thru Ward are all AE types. Wild Swing is the one shown here, which is a frontal AE.</DIV></span><hr></blockquote>My warrior alt has Wild Swing and it is not an AE.. frontal or otherwise. It's simply a low-damage slash, single target.Interesting theory, but Wild Swings are a fighter-archetype ability that are single target, low-damage specials.

Banditman
01-12-2005, 06:14 AM
<DIV>Hmmm.  The link to the image went dead so I can't really formulate a good answer on what was being displayed now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Good info tho, was really hoping that AE was the answer, but apparently not.  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

Mystiq
01-12-2005, 10:54 AM
<DIV>Not sure why the picture decided not to show up now, I'm nowhere near exceeding bandwidth or daily transfer on my hosting site. I'll see what I can do to fix it.</DIV>

Banditman
01-12-2005, 07:51 PM
<DIV>Nice cat.</DIV>

disru
01-13-2005, 02:46 AM
awe.. kitty