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Karmik
12-18-2004, 06:40 AM
<DIV>I dont think its fair to directly compare wards to what the other priest class's get.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We get a slow, and that flat out lowers the number of chances a mob has to hit its target period.  There is no better way to lower a mobs DPS than to lowers its attack speed.  Its a proactive way to heal.... :smileyhappy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its pretty powerful, and should be taken into account when comparing it to what other priest class's get.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Karmik23 on <span class=date_text>12-17-2004</span> <span class=time_text>05:42 PM</span>

Peri
12-18-2004, 07:11 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Karmik23 wrote:<BR> <DIV>I dont think its fair to directly compare wards to what the other priest class's get.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We get a slow, and that flat out lowers the number of chances a mob has to hit its target period.  There is no better way to lower a mobs DPS than to lowers its attack speed.  Its a proactive way to heal.... :smileyhappy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its pretty powerful, and should be taken into account when comparing it to what other priest class's get.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Karmik23 on <SPAN class=date_text>12-17-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:42 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Well, no it shouldn't.  Not entirely anyway.  The only way a heal will fail is if it fizzles or is interrupted.  If the spell casts, you WILL heal your target for the amount the spell allows.  </P> <P>When you start considering the combination of slow+ward, you are in pretty subjective territory.  Do I believe that slow + ward is comparable, or even superior to healing?  Sure do.  But, and it's important to note this, you have no guarantee that your slow will not be resisted.  Now, when you look at the guarantee that AC will mitigate damage, and the guarantee that a heal spell will heal for xx amount of damage when it is cast, how exactly does slow+ward compare?  If you are unable to get your first slow to stick to the mob you are fighting, you are already behind the game.  Sometimes, I have cast up to 3 slows, all resisted.</P> <P>Secondly, up until level 35, all of our slow spells are single target only.  Which is fine in many many of the 1-2 mob encounters we find in our lower levels.  But I have been spending a fair amount of time in RE lately, and when we fight the 4-bajillion mob encounters (linked, or accidental <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) I can tell you it's pretty unfeasible to try and debuff the mobs.  You're better off just spamming ward.  Which, I will point out, works ok for the most part.  However, given the fact that numerically our wards seem to protect for = or less damage than other heal spells, which get to factor in the guarantee of AC mitigation, I do feel like we don't get a comparable ability to heal.  </P> <P>I know some mystics have said that they feel they do fine keeping their party alive.  In truth, I feel like I do an ok job myself.  But the numbers others have crunched don't play out to be that fair between the 3 classes.  I would be fine if they didn't want to give wards AC mitigation... IF they did something to address the discrepancy.  Maybe move down the AoE slow spell to level 30.  Or perhaps give us a timed spell we can cast on our tank that channels a debuff through the ward, making a debuff (slow, lower STR, etc) proc through the ward every time it is struck.  As it stands now though, I don't feel good about every time our party wants to fight hordes of mobs and I am a sole healer (and let's not turn this into a 1 vs. 2 healer group debate right now, that's a different issue :smileywink: ).</P>

Melamp
12-18-2004, 07:15 AM
<DIV>ok, so that post makes no sense...</DIV> <DIV>Clerics can add more HP than a shaman can..so more hp is the clerics equal to slows as a "proactive heal"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With wards not taking into account AC it makes them effectively more and more useless the better your group is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A ward shouldn't be as effective for a caster as it is a tank.</DIV> <DIV>A cleric's reactive heal makes sense, it lasts longer on a tank than a caster because the tank takes less damage per hit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Me at 1800 ac sometimes gets the ward's complete damage taken off in 1 hit....so i that case I might as well go for Very Light Armor with power/hp stats than using medium armor with alot more AC.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Titus</DIV>

Tarll
12-18-2004, 07:21 AM
<DIV>I have to totally disagree with the above post infact I don't believe the mystic class needs twinking at all.  I'v alreay done every part of Runneye including the two instances that comprise of Runnyeye B.    The Mystic is far mor effective healer then the druid and shouldn't be more effective then a cleric.  The only thing I would do to our class is increase our debuffs if anything.  The wards nulifying the AC on the target is fine becaue ur giving that toon an extra xx amount of hit points in essence.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well I also miss haste but oh well this is a new game and needs new tactics adjust your playing to best fit the game not complain about what this and that do.</DIV>

Shaftoe
12-18-2004, 07:31 AM
<blockquote><hr>Karmik23 wrote:Its pretty powerful, and should be taken into account when comparing it to what other priest class's get.<hr></blockquote>I might consider it powerful if slow affected skill attacks, but it doesn't. And skill usage makes up a very large portion of NPC DPS.As an example, here's the result of me fighting an even con L25 crab. The only spell I used was heal.Duration: 240 secondsNormal attacks: 64Normal atk rate: 3.75Normal dmg: 1609Normal DPS: 6.70Spec attacks: 26Spec atk rate: 9.23Spec dmg: 1296Spec DPS: 5.40Spec dmg percent: 44.61Total dmg: 2905Total DPS: 12.10Here's a log of me against another L25 crab, where I maintained keening haze adept I on the crab.Duration: 235 secondsNormal attacks: 54Normal atk rate: 4.35Normal dmg: 1164Normal DPS: 4.95Spec attacks: 28Spec atk rate: 8.39Spec dmg: 1406Spec DPS: 5.98Spec dmg percent: 54.71Total dmg: 2570Total DPS: 10.94As you can see, the 'normal' attack rate went from 3.75 to 4.35 seconds per attack, a whopping 16% slow. The special attack rate (wild swing, crush, etc) DECREASED from 9.23 to 8.39 seconds per attack.I don't want to hear any speeches about statistical samples, etc. It's clear that 'special' attacks aren't slowed, and make up a large portion of NPC damage. It's no wonder I feel like my Adept 1 Keening haze is absolutely worthless. I won't even get into discussing the boredom involved with spamming wards.

Melamp
12-18-2004, 07:38 AM
<DIV>Runneye is nice and all but that doesn't have jack to do with effectiveness of wards.</DIV> <DIV>Balance is the key here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've not notice a difference in instant heals between myself and a cleric..and there shouldn't be sense the priests should be balanced.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets take for example a reactive heal vs. ward</DIV> <DIV>these should be balanced</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so lets use 500 as a nice round number (ward being 500hp worth and reactive heal being 500hp worth)</DIV> <DIV>you would think this is balanced...aye to the naked eye it is....but,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>lets take a..35^^ mob...it does a barage for 500 hp.</DIV> <DIV>this hits the tank (2200ac) for lets say 350 ..the reactive heal then heals for 350 and is still there for another 150 hp of damage..so lets say the mob has to do 250 raw damage to equal that 150 damage with 2200 ac.</DIV> <DIV>so this example tells us that the reactive heal of 500 wears off at 750 raw damage on a 2200ac tank</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>lets take that same mob with same damage with a shaman</DIV> <DIV>casts ward on tank...mob does 500 raw damage..ward absorbs all 500 damage and disappears then mob hits for 250 raw damage..now that the ward is off the tank mitigates damage to 150...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>with this you see that the balance is off because at the end of the ward/reactive heal</DIV> <DIV>cleric has nothing to do but recast reactive heal</DIV> <DIV>shammy has to heal tank for 150 hp then re-ward</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>this is about as useful as the grp rez and Aqueous Spirit spells.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Titus</DIV>

Melamp
12-18-2004, 07:43 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tarllac wrote:<BR> <DIV>  The wards nulifying the AC on the target is fine becaue ur giving that toon an extra xx amount of hit points in essence.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well I also miss haste but oh well this is a new game and needs new tactics adjust your playing to best fit the game not complain about what this and that do.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>was thinking as this as being an eqlive reference...so how does this sound</P> <P>Enchanter</P> <P>rune spell....adds XX hp</P> <P>Slow Spell.....Decreases mob's DPS</P> <P>Mez spells.....Eliminates mob dps..</P> <P> </P> <P>by comparing wards/slows and saying they are balances together with other priests or saying that they add hp then by very definition you are claiming the the eqlive's enchanters are uber healers.</P> <P>Titus<BR></P>

Lathi
12-18-2004, 08:23 AM
<DIV>Malampus: I play both a templar and shaman and I will have to disagree to your assesment on reactives.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1- if the mob hits a player for 350 dmg (after the mitigation) then the reactive will only heal for 110hp's~ per hit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In essence the tank would sustain 200dmg~ over what was reactively healed. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Templars best reactive heals for like MAX 180 with best spell upgrade. So if your taking 500 dmg per hit then each hit you only are healed for 180 therefore you are sustaining alot of dmg and will require intermitten heals to keep up. Of course you can suppliment with stacking BoV-SP and SS. But thats just like mystics stacking group ward and ward for big pulls.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tiresa</DIV> <DIV>Tira</DIV> <DIV>Theresa</DIV>

Melamp
12-18-2004, 09:26 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lathial wrote:<BR> <DIV>Malampus: I play both a templar and shaman and I will have to disagree to your assesment on reactives.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1- if the mob hits a player for 350 dmg (after the mitigation) then the reactive will only heal for 110hp's~ per hit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In essence the tank would sustain 200dmg~ over what was reactively healed. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Templars best reactive heals for like MAX 180 with best spell upgrade. So if your taking 500 dmg per hit then each hit you only are healed for 180 therefore you are sustaining alot of dmg and will require intermitten heals to keep up. Of course you can suppliment with stacking BoV-SP and SS. But thats just like mystics stacking group ward and ward for big pulls.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tiresa</DIV> <DIV>Tira</DIV> <DIV>Theresa</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>so then fighting a grp of mobs that generally hit for 180 or less then would produce then scenario Im talking about then?</P> <P>my point being mainly is that I'm willing to bet you have to hit your reactive heal button less than a shammy has to hit ward.</P> <P>And grp ward and regular ward stacking isn't worth it imo....grp ward too much mana for the results you get if you are intending just to double up wards on the 1 tank...and if even with a long pull for  a hard mob the grp ward only last a very short time..it's still not worth it..just be faster chain warding.<BR></P>

Melamp
12-18-2004, 09:29 AM
<DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Melampus on <span class=date_text>12-17-2004</span> <span class=time_text>08:30 PM</span>

Peri
12-18-2004, 09:40 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tarllac wrote:<BR> <DIV>I have to totally disagree with the above post infact I don't believe the mystic class needs twinking at all.  I'v alreay done every part of Runneye including the two instances that comprise of Runnyeye B.    The Mystic is far mor effective healer then the druid and shouldn't be more effective then a cleric.  The only thing I would do to our class is increase our debuffs if anything.  The wards nulifying the AC on the target is fine becaue ur giving that toon an extra xx amount of hit points in essence.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well I also miss haste but oh well this is a new game and needs new tactics adjust your playing to best fit the game not complain about what this and that do.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>that's purely an opinion on your part... part of the deal with the different classes in each archetype is that they are supposed to perform equally in their archetype's role (healer, tank, etc).  </P> <P>I don't think you really understand the relationship between warding and healing.. warding is not extra HP.. warding is a proactive heal.  There is no difference between a ward absorbing 500 damage than a heal giving back 500 lost HP.. except that 500 damage you heal occurs AFTER the tank's armor has mitigated some of the damage.  that 500 damage you would heal would be far more damage absorbed in a ward (not sure exactly what the number would be, as I don't have hard numbers on how much mitigation reduces damage.</P>

lish
12-18-2004, 09:48 AM
<DIV>Ok i only read the 2nd message. I as a shammy can most definately slow a mob down, but any true eq'er knows to always have a mezzer if you are hunting a group or pull of 2mobs or more. But in EQ2 no one seems to want to play enchanters. They are actually a very powerful class in EQ2, unlike EQ1. If you disagree look at the dot's ench get around 18 they can easily solo white and blue con mobs. But back to shammies, this is a class some either can play or cant, it not a tank class where you just hit  a spell or ability key. Shams take thought of how to approach each encounter, if you are to offensive you cant heal, if you are to passive people must die. It takes a knowledge of control to play a shammie. The player must know what spells to use and when to use them. A good shammie will pull a single with slow and in a group slow as soon as group is pulled on assited mob and then use his/her own discretion of spell casting being strictly offensive or just a healer. If sham is main healer then a slow dot then being healing method is usually best. I played EQ for over 5yrs this is just my take on things not the law, opinions are like pooo holes everyone has one. But like posted in these boards this class take skill and patience something some mmorpg'ers dont have so just hang in there the class will get balanced</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fisto </DIV>

lish
12-18-2004, 09:49 AM
<DIV>Ok i only read the 2nd message. I as a shammy can most definately slow a mob down, but any true eq'er knows to always have a mezzer if you are hunting a group or pull of 2mobs or more. But in EQ2 no one seems to want to play enchanters. They are actually a very powerful class in EQ2, unlike EQ1. If you disagree look at the dot's ench get around 18 they can easily solo white and blue con mobs. But back to shammies, this is a class some either can play or cant, it not a tank class where you just hit  a spell or ability key. Shams take thought of how to approach each encounter, if you are to offensive you cant heal, if you are to passive people must die. It takes a knowledge of control to play a shammie. The player must know what spells to use and when to use them. A good shammie will pull a single with slow and in a group slow as soon as group is pulled on assited mob and then use his/her own discretion of spell casting being strictly offensive or just a healer. If sham is main healer then a slow dot then being healing method is usually best. I played EQ for over 5yrs this is just my take on things not the law, opinions are like pooo holes everyone has one. But like posted in these boards this class take skill and patience something some mmorpg'ers dont have so just hang in there the class will get balanced</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fisto </DIV>

lish
12-18-2004, 09:55 AM
<DIV>Sorry about double post this lag is bleeping horrible</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fisto</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lishin lvl70pally EQ1 retired</DIV> <DIV>Suiyaku lvl70sham EQ1 retired </DIV> <DIV>Vallon Zek Server PVP</DIV>

Katelei
12-20-2004, 07:34 PM
I agree, chanters make multi encounter groups way easier. We did RoV w/ 1 healer, illusionist, tank, tank, conjurer and Ranger.Was the best group I've been in so far.