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View Full Version : Shamen suck? I'm not seein' it.


easttuth
12-16-2004, 01:26 AM
<DIV>News to me, I'm a Berzerker and Mystic 2-boxer and on the occasions that I feel like killing blue^^ mobs the only spells I require to take them down is 1 ward, 1 slow, and 1 debuff. I end up with at least 80% health at the end of the battle 100% of the time, provided I don't attack caster mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How do we suck again? We prevent too much damage? We make encounters too easy?</DIV>

CrazyMi
12-16-2004, 01:38 AM
<DIV>I'm glad you don't see it. Frankly neither do I or most of the people in here. I see a real lack of people in this forum saying Mystics "suck".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mike</DIV>

Banditman
12-16-2004, 02:10 AM
<DIV>No one is saying we suck, though there is strong evidence, both statistical and anecdotal, that our Wards are perhaps a touch underpowered and probably applied by the game engine improperly.</DIV>

easttuth
12-16-2004, 02:28 AM
<DIV>Sorry, just a knee jerk reaction to the 11 posts that are on the front page which are complaining about what seems to be (situationally speaking) an above-par healer.</DIV>

yurix
12-16-2004, 04:34 AM
Exactlly... Shaman do not suck.. Yes we are a different class EQ1. But our primary spell for keeping our group alive is broken. Period. If you are not 30+ then you will not realise this, so stop saying ward is not broken. Tired of all these level 15 newbs saying ward is teh uber roxxx. I have adept 3 Spectral Ward and it is just absolute crap when it comes to me being the primary healer in the group. When there is a cleric or druid in the group its a different story.

Xran
12-16-2004, 04:38 AM
Funny thing is ... we have 2 different takes on Shaman L30+ Ward efficiency and usage.L50 Mystic says that Wards are perfectly fine.L45 Mystic says that Wards are fine, but needs tweaking.L40-41 Mystic says that Wards of L20-late-30s are weak. Waiting on L41.Other L30-40s Mystic says that good thing for Adept III Ward if not it would've sucked.

stoutbrewdrink
12-18-2004, 01:08 AM
<DIV>im lvl 41 almost 42 and wards are absolute crap right now, i have ot use a combo of chain ancestral aegis along with chain group warding to keep up with healing in permafrost. its really [Removed for Content], while i use about 80% of my mana to solo heal there a templar friend 3 lvls lower uses about 20-40%. Druid and cleric heals take dot, special attack, and take mitigation into account. While ours takes all dmg no mitigation and doesnt take dot dmg and special attacks. WE ARE ON THE SHORT END OF THE STICK.</DIV>

Xran
12-18-2004, 01:21 AM
Interesting..now that you say it, Reactive and DoT still continue to heal after DoT dmg.Wards are useless against DoT. I thought only armor was useless for Wards.Fighting DoT mobs can be so hard. Poison DoT, I cure dot. Put up Ward, and more DoT comes...

Rone
12-18-2004, 02:29 PM
<DIV>I myself love the Mystic class and have done since Beta, i believe our heals are some of the most powerful for keeping our allies on there feet through battle though our ward spells as stated by many are not up to much at higher levels. Heres an idea for ward spells for people to see what they think, you cast the ward. The ward prevents any form of damage for the allocated ammount of time and cannot be eliminated unless a dewarding spell is cast (still it lasts for same time). The regen on the spell though is longer but it does what its supposed to do. This imo is how i think it should be but then again it might make things a little easy like soloing so whats your opinion?</DIV>

Ironmaul1
12-19-2004, 02:03 AM
<DIV>Lovin Mine bigtime</DIV>

Zalier
12-19-2004, 02:47 AM
<DIV>I just posted this MSG on another thread, same topic so heres my idea</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Well i have read a few good points on this issue and think there is a pretty close balance comparing our role to other healers.  However, has anyone thought of the tanks on this issue?  I play 20+ mystic and guardian.  I know myself and many other guardians pride themselves upon having the best ac they can possibly have no matter what cost.  And a lot of guardians spend a lot of time and money making sure they have top of the line gear.  (im using guardians for example but all tanks are this way i believe)  So now you are in a grp with a guardian who has great ac and defence capabilities.  But as a heal type class, your wards are basicly nullifying all the work that guardian or tank has gone through to get his ac to a respectable level.  Tanks can go naked and it really wont make a big deal until u run outa mana from chain warding.  I think it might even be beneficial to slightly lower the amount of dmg a ward can absorb but put that after ac and midigation.  This way its not just a flat rate of what you are gonna be able to do.  It will have more dependance on buffs and AC of the tank.  Creates more variability and adds another possible strategy view.  It just depends on what point of view you look at it from.  And i know other healer classes will prolly be upset if we just change it to be uber duper, but I hate the fact that its a linear thing.  Think of the most important varible here, the person who is being warded.  How should the spell affect them, dont think it should nullify thier ac cuz that isnt fair to them.  But this just my 2 cents, lemme know what u think, if infact you can think.</DIV></DIV>

Banditman
12-20-2004, 09:54 PM
<DIV>Wards already absorb (read:  Heal) for less than the specialty heals of any of the Priests . . . and you advocate DECREASING them ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, I understand, you mean after AC . . . but frankly, we should be different yet EQUAL . . . this seems to indicate that our specialty heal should heal for the SAME amount as the other Priests.</DIV>

Karla
12-20-2004, 10:42 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> easttuth wrote:<BR> <DIV>News to me, I'm a Berzerker and Mystic 2-boxer and on the occasions that I feel like killing blue^^ mobs the only spells I require to take them down is 1 ward, 1 slow, and 1 debuff. I end up with at least 80% health at the end of the battle 100% of the time, provided I don't attack caster mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How do we suck again? We prevent too much damage? We make encounters too easy?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Well I am only a 22 mystic, But  I have to chain cast wards to keep the tank alive in ts against giants.  Sure maybe the aept 3 ward is tremedous and makes all cries go away, but................  Silver and/or Coral is almost impossible to find.  I have well over 100 mining and has done 3-4 full solid days on mining in Antonica and haven't found 1 yet.</P> <P>So yes withotu adepts we DO SUCK.  Our wards either need to have the hp soak amount doubled if not tripled, or take into account ac.</P>

Xran
12-21-2004, 12:59 AM
<blockquote><hr><P>Well I am only a 22 mystic, But I have to chain cast wards to keep the tank alive in ts against giants. Sure maybe the aept 3 ward is tremedous and makes all cries go away, but................ Silver and/or Coral is almost impossible to find. I have well over 100 mining and has done 3-4 full solid days on mining in Antonica and haven't found 1 yet.</P><P>So yes withotu adepts we DO SUCK. Our wards either need to have the hp soak amount doubled if not tripled, or take into account ac.</P><hr></blockquote>I stuck with Shaman for 16 levels....and switched to Cleric. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />To require adept I is a pain.....20gp is pure insanity for short gaming hours.

Shadow Myst
12-21-2004, 04:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Well I am only a 22 mystic, But  I have to chain cast wards to keep the tank alive in ts against giants.  Sure maybe the aept 3 ward is tremedous and makes all cries go away, but................  Silver and/or Coral is almost impossible to find.  I have well over 100 mining and has done 3-4 full solid days on mining in Antonica and haven't found 1 yet.</P> <P>So yes withotu adepts we DO SUCK.  Our wards either need to have the hp soak amount doubled if not tripled, or take into account ac.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I had app3 ward doing giants and never had to chain cast it at level 22.  Are you using your debuffs and what level are they?<BR>

Banditman
12-21-2004, 08:42 PM
<DIV>Chain casting Ward is likely a result of poor AC on the tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is no more evil thing to a Shaman than a mitigation tank with poor armor.  We can heal those type tanks, but they must have high grade equipment and we have to play it properly.</DIV>

Karla
12-21-2004, 08:48 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xrande wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <P>Well I am only a 22 mystic, But I have to chain cast wards to keep the tank alive in ts against giants. Sure maybe the aept 3 ward is tremedous and makes all cries go away, but................ Silver and/or Coral is almost impossible to find. I have well over 100 mining and has done 3-4 full solid days on mining in Antonica and haven't found 1 yet.</P> <P>So yes withotu adepts we DO SUCK. Our wards either need to have the hp soak amount doubled if not tripled, or take into account ac.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>I stuck with Shaman for 16 levels....and switched to Cleric. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>To require adept I is a pain.....20gp is pure insanity for short gaming hours.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Im trying a druid and so far i really like it. Ill go back o my shaman when they fix wards

Karla
12-21-2004, 08:52 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shadow Mystic wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Well I am only a 22 mystic, But  I have to chain cast wards to keep the tank alive in ts against giants.  Sure maybe the aept 3 ward is tremedous and makes all cries go away, but................  Silver and/or Coral is almost impossible to find.  I have well over 100 mining and has done 3-4 full solid days on mining in Antonica and haven't found 1 yet.</P> <P>So yes withotu adepts we DO SUCK.  Our wards either need to have the hp soak amount doubled if not tripled, or take into account ac.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I had app3 ward doing giants and never had to chain cast it at level 22.  Are you using your debuffs and what level are they?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> My debuffs are app3 and so are my wards.  I have to ask though does a cleric or druid have to use their debuffs to be an effective healer?  My answer is no.  Why should shaman?  you are right thou when i do use my slow and delusion my ward does last much longer maybe 6-8 hits, without slow and delusion it lasts maybe 1-2 hits.

Karla
12-21-2004, 08:53 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR> <DIV>Chain casting Ward is likely a result of poor AC on the tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is no more evil thing to a Shaman than a mitigation tank with poor armor.  We can heal those type tanks, but they must have high grade equipment and we have to play it properly.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Wards sopak damage before ac, so ac likely does not matter, my guardian could be outside fighting giants in his boxers, and it wouldnt matter.

Shadow Myst
12-21-2004, 10:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> My debuffs are app3 and so are my wards.  I have to ask though does a cleric or druid have to use their debuffs to be an effective healer?  My answer is no.  Why should shaman?  you are right thou when i do use my slow and delusion my ward does last much longer maybe 6-8 hits, without slow and delusion it lasts maybe 1-2 hits.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well, no a cleric doesnt have to debuff to be an effective healer, however, I do not have to debuff either to be an effective mystic <EM>healer.  </EM>I can heal all day long without debuffing, however I can debuff, then ward, and the cleric doesnt have to worry so much about healing nor do I anymore.  I agree, I think it needs some tweaking, but I dont think it needs a huge amount of tweaking.  I also dont think that just because our ward needs a bit of tweaking, that our class completly sucks.  There are other things to do besides ward all day long.<BR>

Banditman
12-21-2004, 10:30 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Karlace wrote:<BR><BR><BR> Wards sopak damage before ac, so ac likely does not matter, my guardian could be outside fighting giants in his boxers, and it wouldnt matter.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>The fact that you feel this way is a super good indication that Shaman is not the class for you.  Perhaps one day you'll look back and understand, but for now, enjoy your Druid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>edit:  Just to clarify, I do think that there are some adjustments that need to be made to Wards in order to bring them in line with what other Priests are able to accomplish, but I certainly don't feel doom n' gloom about Shaman.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Banditman on <span class=date_text>12-21-2004</span> <span class=time_text>09:32 AM</span>

Karla
12-22-2004, 03:09 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Karlace wrote:<BR><BR><BR> Wards sopak damage before ac, so ac likely does not matter, my guardian could be outside fighting giants in his boxers, and it wouldnt matter.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>The fact that you feel this way is a super good indication that Shaman is not the class for you.  Perhaps one day you'll look back and understand, but for now, enjoy your Druid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>edit:  Just to clarify, I do think that there are some adjustments that need to be made to Wards in order to bring them in line with what other Priests are able to accomplish, but I certainly don't feel doom n' gloom about Shaman.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Banditman on <SPAN class=date_text>12-21-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:32 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> This has nothing to do with the way I feel.  As a fact fo the game Wards soak daamge before AC.  Therefore  when a shaman is healing the amonut of AC the tank has means nothing.

Karla
12-22-2004, 03:10 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shadow Mystic wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> My debuffs are app3 and so are my wards.  I have to ask though does a cleric or druid have to use their debuffs to be an effective healer?  My answer is no.  Why should shaman?  you are right thou when i do use my slow and delusion my ward does last much longer maybe 6-8 hits, without slow and delusion it lasts maybe 1-2 hits.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well, no a cleric doesnt have to debuff to be an effective healer, however, I do not have to debuff either to be an effective mystic <EM>healer.  </EM>I can heal all day long without debuffing, however I can debuff, then ward, and the cleric doesnt have to worry so much about healing nor do I anymore.  I agree, I think it needs some tweaking, but I dont think it needs a huge amount of tweaking.  I also dont think that just because our ward needs a bit of tweaking, that our class completly sucks.  There are other things to do besides ward all day long.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> So sicne wards is a mystics primary form of healing what else is there to do besides ward and or debuff?  Sure I can throw on a dot or 2.

Shadow Myst
12-22-2004, 04:44 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Karlace wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shadow Mystic wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> My debuffs are app3 and so are my wards.  I have to ask though does a cleric or druid have to use their debuffs to be an effective healer?  My answer is no.  Why should shaman?  you are right thou when i do use my slow and delusion my ward does last much longer maybe 6-8 hits, without slow and delusion it lasts maybe 1-2 hits.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well, no a cleric doesnt have to debuff to be an effective healer, however, I do not have to debuff either to be an effective mystic <EM>healer.  </EM>I can heal all day long without debuffing, however I can debuff, then ward, and the cleric doesnt have to worry so much about healing nor do I anymore.  I agree, I think it needs some tweaking, but I dont think it needs a huge amount of tweaking.  I also dont think that just because our ward needs a bit of tweaking, that our class completly sucks.  There are other things to do besides ward all day long.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> So sicne wards is a mystics primary form of healing what else is there to do besides ward and or debuff?  Sure I can throw on a dot or 2.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Ward is not the primary form of healing, it is the primary form of not having to heal.  Shamans are not an easy toon to play.  If you want easy, then go play a meatshield.  I can tell by your other posts here and there, that you want the uber character, with no challenge what so ever.  Cons should give more exp, blah blah blah.  I think the whole game is too easy as it is right now, and I like the fact that I have to work at getting the most out of my ward, instead of just a cast and forget.  The game has been out what a month or two, and you already have more than enough lvl 50's running around.  Thats sad.  If you think it is bugged, then dont play the toon, there many other choices for you play.  I have, and so have others said it needs a bit of tweaking, but if you had it your way, there would be no need for healers at all.  Just cast ward and no one takes damage.  Yeah, that sounds fun.  Not!<BR>

Banditman
12-22-2004, 08:29 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Karlace wrote:<BR><BR><BR> This has nothing to do with the way I feel.  As a fact fo the game Wards soak daamge before AC.  Therefore  when a shaman is healing the amonut of AC the tank has means nothing.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Grab a Brawler as your MT and see the difference.  Wards are golden when a Monk is my MT.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Clarifying again:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think that being forced to use a certain type of tank is bogus.  I should be equally effective and efficient regardless of the Class of my Tank.  I was merely making the point that Shaman are NOT gimped beyond use at this point.  Yes, I think Wards need a hard look and some tweaking, but they are not "worthless".</DIV>

Aaldaaf
12-27-2004, 08:20 AM
<DIV>Each priest class has values and weaknesses and I think is one of the best balanced things in the game.  Any two make a group so much stronger.  After playing an EQ cleric for so many years I'm really enjoying the Mystic.  It's been great up to 41 and from I hear from the 50s in the gulid will stay just fine.  It is a change not being able to just blast heal any amount of damage but hey, that's part of the game. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes it's frustrating when fighting a mob 7 or more levels higher since the slows won't stick, or when in mid 30s and your slow is too low to even cast.  But when I can't slow I focus on the power HO with a caster and let the templar heal.  Sometimes the templar envys the mystic, sometimes the mystic envys the templar, seems about right to me.</DIV>

Aaldaaf
12-27-2004, 08:21 AM
<DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Aaldaaf on <span class=date_text>12-26-2004</span> <span class=time_text>07:27 PM</span>

Karla
12-28-2004, 01:10 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shadow Mystic wrote:<BR><BR>to heal.  Shamans are not an easy toon to play.  If you want easy, then go play a meatshield.  I can tell by your other posts here and there, that you want the uber character, with no challenge what so ever.  Cons should give more exp, blah blah blah.  I think the whole game is too easy as it is right now, and I like the fact that I have to work at getting the most out of my ward, instead of just a cast and forget.  The game has been out what a month or two, and you already have more than enough lvl 50's running around.  Thats sad.  If you think it is bugged, then dont play the toon, there many other choices for you play.  I have, and so have others said it needs a bit of tweaking, but if you had it your way, there would be no need for healers at all.  Just cast ward and no one takes damage.  Yeah, that sounds fun.  Not!<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>So please explian to me what is the SHAMAN's main form of healing if it is not ward.  Every class has a speciality, druid is HoT cleric is RA shaman is ward.  Right now wards do not stack well when compared to the others.  I never said i want easy, i want effective.  Soling a blue or white should not blow through 1/2 mana.<BR>

Banditman
12-28-2004, 02:53 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Karlace wrote:<BR><BR>I never said i want easy, i want effective.  Soling a blue or white should not blow through 1/2 mana.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I disagree.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>White con is a EVEN fight.  The text says so.  In fact, you should probably die - about half the time - fighting an "even" fight.</DIV>

Karla
12-28-2004, 03:11 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Karlace wrote:<BR><BR>I never said i want easy, i want effective.  Soling a blue or white should not blow through 1/2 mana.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I disagree.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>White con is a EVEN fight.  The text says so.  In fact, you should probably die - about half the time - fighting an "even" fight.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Ok Well at level 24 on my mystic i gain about 1/4 to 1/3 percent from 1 white.  So 4 white or so for 1 percent.  takes 100% to level.  you call killing 400 mobs at a very early level of the game to progress effective.   I am sorry but we deffinately have different levels of effective. </FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Let's heare this is a grouping game you should not solo blah blah blah.</FONT></DIV>

Banditman
12-28-2004, 08:36 PM
<DIV>I see you already realize what Sony has been trying to say all along.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You're right, it is a group oriented game.  They put a lot less emphasis and balancing into the solo content.  It's just the facts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They said all along (I'm paraphrasing here) that while soloing would be possible, it would not be nearly as fast or efficient as grouping.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sounds like they've done what they said they intended to me.</DIV>