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Ascensionf
12-16-2004, 12:20 AM
Ok I read these boards and after all these recent threads I am thoroughly confused where you guys are coming up with these conclusions.Many are jumping on the bandwagon of how shamans suck... I dont understand this. If any of you have grouped with a druid/cleric or discussed with tanks that have been with druid/cleric, you will find out that we can heal perfectly fine. Wards are very well balanced to fighting and just as efficient as vitae/regen. Imo if you are running out of power try a different heal strategy because every shaman I know has had great success as being a primary/solo healer in a group. People with soloing concerns... shamans can solo oranges with effort 30+, its all about strategy. About shaman adept drops... from seeing all the drops in my groups and other groups in my guild it seems to be perfectly in line or even more drops than other classes. I look at my hotbars and I see many adepts, anyone who expects to just grab every adept from drops in such short time is being unrealistic. Wait for sages to get higher lvls and get your adept 3s. We have no room to complain because it all comes down to random number loot gods and luck.recap... Shamans rock and should be left alone like good little bears.sorry if I seem rash but come on guys this is sadnessflame on~ wuwu<a href=http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=209572205 target=_blank>Quirk</a><a href=http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild.vm?guildId=40205 target=_blank>Ardent Legion</a>50 Mystic<img src=http://home.austin.rr.com/quirks/sig.jpg><p>Message Edited by Ascensionftw on <span class=date_text>12-15-2004</span> <span class=time_text>11:22 AM</span>

Apathet
12-16-2004, 12:33 AM
*bookmarks the page for the flamewar that is about to begin*

Banditman
12-16-2004, 01:39 AM
<DIV>No one of informed opinion has said Shaman suck.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Many of informed opinion are coming to the conclusion that Wards are probably a little underpowered and perhaps being improperly applied by the game.  Even in just the raw numbers analysis, it is pretty apparent.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>edit:  Here are the numbers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shaman - Spectral Ward app3 - 55 power cost - absorbs 403 unmitigated damage (absorbs damage as if AC was 0) - remaining ward is no longer converted to instant heal after duration ends. (this was changed after beta ended)<BR><BR>Clerics - Bestowal of Vitae app3 - 55 power cost - reactively heals 102 dmg when the benefactor takes damage. expires after 5 or 6 activations. Heal factors in after damage is mitigated.  (mitigated hea<BR><BR>Druid - Regrowth app3 - 55 power cost - heals approximately 80 health per tick for 6 ticks. Heal factors in after damage is mitigated.<BR><BR></DIV> <DIV>As you can see, a Shaman Ward is already 70 - 209 HP less effective, before you consider mitigation, when compared to the specialty heals of the other two Priests.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, if you consider that the other Priests are healing AFTER mitigation, and you consider mitigation to be 30% of incoming damage, now you are healing 91 to 272 HP less with your Ward than the other Priests specialty heals.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Banditman on <span class=date_text>12-15-2004</span> <span class=time_text>01:01 PM</span>

Ascensionf
12-16-2004, 01:44 AM
why look at numbers when I have tested and compared wards in the field? they are not even close to underpowered (and yes I have looked at the numbers omg)-quirk

Banditman
12-16-2004, 02:02 AM
<DIV>And so, because things work fine IN YOUR SITUATION, they work fine for everyone?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I didn't think so.</DIV>

Peri
12-16-2004, 02:10 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ascensionftw wrote:<BR>why look at numbers when I have tested and compared wards in the field? they are not even close to underpowered (and yes I have looked at the numbers omg)<BR><BR>-quirk<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>wards do hold up well, IF and WHEN you can successfully debuff the encounter.  So, in the field, when you are playing your class to its fullest, wards can work.  But, the argument is, to stand equal in healing / protection power a shaman must do more "work"  than clerics or druids.  Which, in honesty, can be fine.  But it's not as reliable.   Debuffs won't land.  repeatedly.  Or the encounter will be several mobs that will be difficult to debuff given recast timers, resists, etc (remember that the majority of players don't have AoE slow, or even AoE debuffs of any sort).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The difficulty in debuffs landing is my biggest beef.  I see no reliable pattern in the frequency of their landing.  I will land more debuffs on yellow ^^ most of the time than I do on blue ^^.  why that is, I don't know.  The point is, it's unreliable, and if it's going to be the "method" of shamans being on par with healing / protecting our group, then something needs tweaking.</DIV>

up2
12-16-2004, 03:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR> <DIV>No one of informed opinion has said Shaman suck.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Many of informed opinion are coming to the conclusion that Wards are probably a little underpowered and perhaps being improperly applied by the game.  Even in just the raw numbers analysis, it is pretty apparent.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>edit:  Here are the numbers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shaman - Spectral Ward app3 - 55 power cost - absorbs 403 unmitigated damage (absorbs damage as if AC was 0) - remaining ward is no longer converted to instant heal after duration ends. (this was changed after beta ended)<BR><BR>Clerics - Bestowal of Vitae app3 - 55 power cost - reactively heals 102 dmg when the benefactor takes damage. expires after 5 or 6 activations. Heal factors in after damage is mitigated.  (mitigated hea<BR><BR>Druid - Regrowth app3 - 55 power cost - heals approximately 80 health per tick for 6 ticks. Heal factors in after damage is mitigated.<BR><BR></DIV> <DIV>As you can see, a Shaman Ward is already 70 - 209 HP less effective, before you consider mitigation, when compared to the specialty heals of the other two Priests.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, if you consider that the other Priests are healing AFTER mitigation, and you consider mitigation to be 30% of incoming damage, now you are healing 91 to 272 HP less with your Ward than the other Priests specialty heals.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>This argument is really flawed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Take the case of reactive heals, the only way you get FULLY MITIGATED healing is if the tank NEVER reaches full health.  Generally not a great situation and usually very difficult to implement in practice.</DIV> <DIV>Wards however ALWAYS are used to their full potential.  Now factor that into your "numbers" that don't mean jack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm all about [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing about your class, but come on.. at least don't try to be deceitful about it.  At mid 20's at least, it should be apparent that Wards > Reactives > Regen.</DIV> <DIV>Personally I love shaman- I don't have to hardly heal at all when one is in a group.  Someday that may come back to bite me, when I can't find a group, but for now it seems ok.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ryla</DIV> <DIV>23 Templar - Oasis</DIV>

leatia
12-16-2004, 03:52 AM
I like EQ2 shaman, but they are nothing like shaman from Everquest. Totally different animals.My only beefs with the class are our wards are underpowered for the higher-end game and need tweaking... and our bear form is too [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] big. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I also think there are a massive number of stacking and buff cap issues that need addressing in order to make us have buff utility in most combinations of groups. Nothing a shrink-form spell, some ward tweaking, and a few hard-cap/stacking patches couldn't fix.

joshie
12-16-2004, 06:13 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> leatia wrote:<BR>I like EQ2 shaman, but they are nothing like shaman from Everquest. Totally different animals.<BR><BR>My only beefs with the class are our wards are underpowered for the higher-end game and need tweaking... and our bear form is too [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] big. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I also think there are a massive number of stacking and buff cap issues that need addressing in order to make us have buff utility in most combinations of groups. <BR><BR>Nothing a shrink-form spell, some ward tweaking, and a few hard-cap/stacking patches couldn't fix.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>What is your definition of the higher end game?  Quirk is 50 and says things are fine.  I am 32 and I say things are fine.  Slow sticks on mid-oranges and below 90% of the time.  Slow is overpowered.  Wards work fine.</FONT></DIV>

Kryogen
12-16-2004, 11:08 AM
<DIV>From what i have both seen and experience our slows plus wards work as effectivly as other forms of healers..its just that they need to be implimented in different ways is all</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Banditman
12-16-2004, 07:33 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> up2l8 wrote:<BR> <DIV>This argument is really flawed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Take the case of reactive heals, the only way you get FULLY MITIGATED healing is if the tank NEVER reaches full health.  Generally not a great situation and usually very difficult to implement in practice.</DIV> <DIV>Wards however ALWAYS are used to their full potential.  Now factor that into your "numbers" that don't mean jack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm all about [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing about your class, but come on.. at least don't try to be deceitful about it.  At mid 20's at least, it should be apparent that Wards > Reactives > Regen.</DIV> <DIV>Personally I love shaman- I don't have to hardly heal at all when one is in a group.  Someday that may come back to bite me, when I can't find a group, but for now it seems ok.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ryla</DIV> <DIV>23 Templar - Oasis</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Really?  Flawed you say?</P> <P>I'd say the flaw is trying to heal your tank too early.  My tank is *never* at full health in battle.  It would be completely inefficient to make it so.</P> <P>So, why again are you trying to heal your tank when he isn't damaged?  The only way your reactive heal isn't used to it's full potential is if you cast it too soon.  That's a player created mistake, not a flaw in the system.  It's analogous to a Shaman chain Warding the MT.  It'll work, but it isn't efficient.</P> <P>The raw numbers are the same.  Clerics heal for a raw 510-612 points, AFTER mitigation.  9.3 - 11.1 HP / mana.  Shaman heal for 403 points, PRE mitigation.  7.3 HP / mana.  Clerics can blow 107 - 209 HP in overheal and still be MORE efficient in healing than a Shaman, simply because their heals happen AFTER mitigation.</P> <P>I believe sir, your arguement is flawed.<BR></P>

KindredHeart
12-16-2004, 09:21 PM
<DIV>All of this comparison between clerics, druids, and shamans - YUCK.  Who cares?  If you want to heal exactly like a cleric why bother calling yourself a shaman?  It just doesn't make any sense to me.  There are supposed to be differences between the three subclasses, what exactly is the problem?  Are you having a hard time in the game getting into groups because no one wants a shaman?  I know I certainly haven't experienced that at all.  Is your subclass so weak and useless you can't solo anything by yourself and constantly HAVE to form a group?  I haven't experienced that at all either.  So what was the problem again?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm sorry if that sounded sarcastic, but I honestly don't understand the complaint.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Banditman
12-16-2004, 09:30 PM
<DIV>If you don't understand the discussion perhaps you should not participate in it?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No one said they wanted to heal exactly like the other.  What **EVERYONE** wants is to heal in such a way as to be equally effective.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Right now, statistical, empirical and anecdotal evidence suggests that the Shaman specialty heal, Wards, are not as effective / efficient as the Cleric and Druid counterparts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All Shaman are asking for is the opportunity to perform our primary function (healing) with the same level of efficiency / effectiveness as the other members of the Priest archtype.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nothing more, nothing less.</DIV>

ogg
12-16-2004, 09:59 PM
<blockquote><hr>up2l8 wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Banditman wrote:<BR><DIV>No one of informed opinion has said Shaman suck.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Many of informed opinion are coming to the conclusion that Wards are probably a little underpowered and perhaps being improperly applied by the game. Even in just the raw numbers analysis, it is pretty apparent.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>edit: Here are the numbers.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Shaman - Spectral Ward app3 - 55 power cost - absorbs 403 unmitigated damage (absorbs damage as if AC was 0) - remaining ward is no longer converted to instant heal after duration ends. (this was changed after beta ended)<BR><BR>Clerics - Bestowal of Vitae app3 - 55 power cost - reactively heals 102 dmg when the benefactor takes damage. expires after 5 or 6 activations. Heal factors in after damage is mitigated. (mitigated hea<BR><BR>Druid - Regrowth app3 - 55 power cost - heals approximately 80 health per tick for 6 ticks. Heal factors in after damage is mitigated.<BR><BR></DIV><DIV>As you can see, a Shaman Ward is already 70 - 209 HP less effective, before you consider mitigation, when compared to the specialty heals of the other two Priests.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Now, if you consider that the other Priests are healing AFTER mitigation, and you consider mitigation to be 30% of incoming damage, now you are healing 91 to 272 HP less with your Ward than the other Priests specialty heals.</DIV><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><DIV>This argument is really flawed.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Take the case of reactive heals, the only way you get FULLY MITIGATED healing is if the tank NEVER reaches full health. Generally not a great situation and usually very difficult to implement in practice.</DIV><DIV>Wards however ALWAYS are used to their full potential. Now factor that into your "numbers" that don't mean jack.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I'm all about [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing about your class, but come on.. at least don't try to be deceitful about it. At mid 20's at least, it should be apparent that Wards > Reactives > Regen.</DIV><DIV>Personally I love shaman- I don't have to hardly heal at all when one is in a group. Someday that may come back to bite me, when I can't find a group, but for now it seems ok.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Ryla</DIV><DIV>23 Templar - Oasis</DIV><hr></blockquote>This would be true if the hits were less than the reactive heal. If the tank gets hit for 200, the reactive heals for 100, then the tank isn't exactly at full health. Wards are actually the only specialty heal where the player health doesn't matter, for the most part at least, since any time a player is in a fight and at full health his natural regen is technically being wasted.If it's so apparent that wards > reactives > regen, some of us would enjoy having you demonstrate how. Situation aside, the numbers just flat out show that you are incorrect. Now, apply other factors such as debuffs, group makeup, etc and things change a bit, but for now all we can rely on are the numbers.