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View Full Version : Hypocritical messages concerning wards? NOT a flame.


Oni Tana
12-14-2004, 09:23 PM
<DIV>YO!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'll keep this short and sweet as I have seen some fairly long messages regarding wards.</DIV> <DIV>I am not taking a side as I feel I haven't the right to do so being so low level at this point and time.</DIV> <DIV>I am only lvl20(had 70 shaman)</DIV> <DIV>Played EQ1 for 5 years(but totally realize and enjoy the difference in EQ2) so I realize what an inept healer is alllll about.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>O.K.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most of the statements seem to boil down to lack of mitigation for wards.</DIV> <DIV>It is not fair that other priests heals account for mitigation.</DIV> <DIV>In addition, its the "style" moves abilities etc.. that are tearing up the wards in one or two shots.</DIV> <DIV>Slow being a factor in this doesn't count because it doesnt affect speed of "style" moves that are doing the majority of the damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AC and MITIGATION DO NOT AFFECT "special" ATTACKS!!!!</DIV> <DIV>Period.</DIV> <DIV>End of statement.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So if one side is going to argue that wards are useless because they dont count for mitigation, and they only soak up one hit at higher levels and slow isn't a factor because the real damage comes form those "styles" then.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The fact that mitigation has ZERO affect on said "styles" should not the be the complaint... AMOUNT of damage warded would seem to be the better fix.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is hypocritical to say that our wards suck because they go off before mitigation and then say that only the "style" attacks of the enemy do any significant damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just a thought. I like my Mystic at this point but as I stated, I am too low level to have an opinion as to what "needs" to be changed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2 Priest stacking in same group ideas will be for another post <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S. If I am totally off base please inform me as to what I misconstrued.</DIV>

Oni Tana
12-14-2004, 09:24 PM
<DIV>BOOOOO!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2X post sorry, first time poster.</DIV>

Mu
12-14-2004, 10:39 PM
<DIV>Hey Oni. I played eq1 for over 4 years ( lvl 65 sham is when i stopped and went to SWG ). I enjoy eq2 also, but I feel shams are gimped compared to eq1 shams. Now instead of tryin  to stick a slow to the mob via malo. I am now chain castin ward and stickin slow and delusion between castings. I really think it sucks not havin root, lev, invis and pets =( Muhh</DIV>

Banditman
12-15-2004, 02:01 AM
<DIV>EQ1 Shaman do not hold a candle to EQ2 Shaman in terms of power or group desireability.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The *only* thing an EQ1 Shaman has over an EQ2 Shaman is some solo ability, and really, not that much of that.</DIV>

leatia
12-15-2004, 03:32 AM
I have to disagree with Banditman about Shaman utility in EQ2 versus EQ1.Shaman had substantially more group utility than they do now. Invis for corpse recovery, pet and pet dps, stronger melee buffs, better debuffs, resistance lowering, more tangible slows, the whole works.That being said, I do like the way EQ2 has balance the classes so as the holy trinity is no longer as common. Whether a group picks up a shaman, a cleric or a druid of the priest classes becomes less emphasis. Each class goes about yielding priest-style benefits in a different way, but the overall effect is the same.The problem I see with ward discussions is I think there is much, much more to wards than most people recognize... as well as additional tuning that is still in the works. Buffs and resistances have been changing near weekly.I've also noticed wards are lasting longer and even though mitigation isn't compensated to a player wearing a ward, it seems avoidance now is. For the first time in weeks, I'm seeing wards last longer than 2-3 seconds... and in solo cases where I have aggro, I'm seeing a LOT of misses from the mobs. It seemed in the past, every swing of the mob would do full damage to the ward. Now logged parses show a lot more misses that do 0 damage to the ward... so something has been tweaked to give them more duration.Functioning as the primary healer in the higher levels as a shaman is currently very stressful. The first few seconds of an encounter determine how the battle will go. This makes our job a little more difficult than a generic priest/cleric role. It's imperative to get the MA warded before the encounter, get the mob slowed and debuffed and manage aggro... but normal group dynamics make this a chore so shaman are left chaining wards and heals and trying to find time between to get their debuffs landed. A single resist in this process makes the difference between being fully tapped for power or even group death. I find myself taking control of groups in order to make this work. You never see a cleric needing to take control like this. This is actually something I enjoy about being a shaman since if you can get the group to work together WITH the shaman, things can go pretty well. This limits the class to fairly adept players who need to do more than just click the Yes to invite screen and hang back and heal. This is truly more befitting a mystic. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I'm sure we'll see more tweaks to wards and hopefully resists wont be as critical as they are now. There are a lot of factors that effect shamans that other priests dont have to worry about at current. I'm sure over time some of these will be addressed.

Tubbe
12-15-2004, 03:57 AM
<DIV>You obviously didn't have mad kiting skillz in EQ1. I remember soloing tigers and Sarnaks all day long in OT, flew past people in that zone. Anyways. When I group I always have the same set group:</DIV> <DIV>Mystic</DIV> <DIV>Berserker</DIV> <DIV>Illusionist</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just us three. We take on either Blue/White/Yellow ^^ or 2 blue/white/yellow ^ or the three packs, sometimes those six spawns, like swarm beetles. The illusionist always silences the mob we're attacking. That means it doesn't cast or use combat abilities (unless thats broken too). When Ward is off the 'zerker usually gets hit for 50-70, 25-55, or 20-35 per mob on the respective mob groups. With Ward on those numbers nearly double. When fighting ^^ mobs it can be more effective to use regular heals than to use wards. That is just not right. The higher we level the more damage the tank takes, thats given, but he takes nearly double damage, and scaling at a rather large rate, when I use the Ward on him. This essentially negates about half the power of the ward, more so later on, I assume. But I can't ward for any more now than I could at level 21, (I'm 25 now). And from what I've heard the new Ward is almost identical up to the low 30s. What this means is I am going to become a less effective healer. Other priests' heals will not lose any or as much effectiveness, because they allow damage mitigation. I will be a monotonous heal drone pumping ward after ward until my mana is gone. Is that why we play games? Is that why you chose to be a Mystic? To become a heal-drone? I chose to be a Mystic so I could heal my friends and have fun by casting debuffs, the occasional DoT, and of course, mauling rodents to death, I want to enjoy the beatiful world that was created for us, not stare at the tanks health bar until my eyes bleed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SoE needs to balance all of the heals, and I dont mean nerf others' heals down to Ward level, but maybe make everyone's heals more powerful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So far there have been many many posts concerning the underpowering of wards and other heals. As well as defective quests and areas, but I have seen only one dev's response to any of these and that was basically, 'yeah we'll fix that in the next update.' And that was regarding quests. Its not that hard to find these posts, I found them while looking for an armor quests guide. There are about 5 on each priest board. It's nice to know so many people care about a topic, then only to see that the devs turn various swear words into **mods 4 teh win!1!!** or something like that, so they can ignore peoples problems. If someone could just confirm that the devs are trying to solve these problems, then that would make me feel a lot better, <STRONG>but it just <EM>looks like </EM>everyone is busy adding new things instead of fixing the<EM> broken ones</EM></STRONG>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some suggestions: Choose 1</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#006633><FONT color=#00cc33>1. You could keep the same amount of point absorbtion</FONT>, </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>add damage mitigation </FONT><FONT color=#00cc33>from def, keep the same time limit, and increase the power of the ward. Just make sure its an upgrade.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc33>2. Decrease point absorbtion, add dmg mitigation, same time limit, same power. Once again upgrades > nerfs.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#006633><FONT color=#00cc33>3.</FONT> <FONT color=#66ff00><FONT color=#ffff00>Increase points absorbtion</FONT> </FONT></FONT><FONT color=#00cc33>by whatever formulas you guys came up with, dont change anything else.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc33>4. Same points absorbtion, add dmg mitigation, reduce time to around 25 seconds instead of 36, same power.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>Any of these would be acceptable upgrades, as long as you dont read it as <FONT color=#ff0000>"INCREASE power to cast ward.....DECREASE point absortion....NERFS....DECREASE time limit.....NO Mitigation." </FONT>Please, if you do that I'll cry.</DIV>

Banditman
12-15-2004, 07:13 PM
<DIV> <DIV>Disagree all you like, it won't make you right.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Invis for a CR ?  What?  Are you NUTS!?!?!  CR's were done mostly by Necro's and SK's with summon corpse.  In rare cases, a Rogue would do it because they had a FAR superior invis type ability.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pet?  Our Pet?  Oh, you mean dogdog the wonder pup.  Even with Virtue, Muzzle of Mardu, Fists of Ixiblat, Girdle of the Magi'ko and every buff I could lay on him, dogdog couldn't tank Geo's in PoV for more than a round or two.  His DPS against mobs near his level was about 30, and it dropped off tremendously as mobs got up toward 64+ in level.  Nevermind that he could EASILY get one rounded by the trash mobs in a sewer trial.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Melee buffs?  Well, yea, at L65 a Shaman did have some nice melee buffs, but I would imagine that when my Shaman in EQ2 gets to that point he'll have some nice buffs as well.  You did look at the Mystic spell list right?  You did see that we get Avatar in the 40's in EQ2 ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mystics are not the debuffer.  Defilers are.  They have some of the best debuffs in the game.  Go back and compare a L50 EQLive Shaman (Kunark era spells only) to a L50 EQ2 Defiler.  I think you'll find that the EQ2 Shaman is more than capable of doing the job, and frankly a Mystic can do most of those things too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tangible Slows?  Hello?  Are you comparing the L51 EQLive Turgurs Insects to a pre-L20 Slow in EQ2 ?  Once again, go compare apples to apples.  How does the EQLive pre-L20 Slow stack up to the EQ2 Slow.  About the freakin' same.  Pre 20 in EQLive, I didn't even PURCHASE the Slow spell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>

stoutbrewdrink
12-15-2004, 08:11 PM
<DIV>im lvl 40 and 6% from 41. i havent seen my 41 ward yet but i sure hope its better than the previous. If it isnt you can count me out on alot of groups cause the word will go around that mystics suck as healing. i will however be using a combo of group ward, aegis ward, and maybe acestral in certain situations. Something has to be done about our wards, lvl 41 may be a different story but we will see. They need more juice or need to have mitigation involved.</DIV>

leatia
12-16-2004, 03:37 AM
<blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:<DIV><DIV>Disagree all you like, it won't make you right.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Invis for a CR ? What? Are you NUTS!?!?! CR's were done mostly by Necro's and SK's with summon corpse. In rare cases, a Rogue would do it because they had a FAR superior invis type ability.</DIV></DIV></DIV><hr></blockquote>So, you're saying you should hunt down a necro/SK and buy a coffin in EQ1? Sorry, in groups, not raids, that's lunacy and it was commonplace to pop invis and either drag corpses or get the group there to loot in EQ1. Which is besides the point, as you can't drag corpses in EQ2, it's now a case of finding someone with Smuggle to go retrieve shards. So they have taken an ability that even has MORE utility in EQ2 away from shaman. I'd say more than half of the pick-up groups where we have wiped deep- the priest should be able to get to the camp and process revives. Unfortunately, priests cant do this as they have no invis. The feather/gemstone works if you have a monk/sk or fd class, but again- the process of handling wipes deep in dungeons is only facilitating the hope and prayer you have an fd class along and also hope they were quick enough to FD.<blockquote><hr><DIV>Pet? Our Pet? Oh, you mean dogdog the wonder pup. Even with Virtue, Muzzle of Mardu, Fists of Ixiblat, Girdle of the Magi'ko and every buff I could lay on him, dogdog couldn't tank Geo's in PoV for more than a round or two. His DPS against mobs near his level was about 30, and it dropped off tremendously as mobs got up toward 64+ in level. Nevermind that he could EASILY get one rounded by the trash mobs in a sewer trial.</DIV><hr></blockquote>I never had this problem with dogdog in EQ1. With just FOS, Swift like Wind and some summoned mage toys, he was a nice addition to DPS and could easily handle adds in PoF, PoE or other tier 2 planes, provided they were slowed/debuffed.<blockquote><hr><DIV>Melee buffs? Well, yea, at L65 a Shaman did have some nice melee buffs, but I would imagine that when my Shaman in EQ2 gets to that point he'll have some nice buffs as well. You did look at the Mystic spell list right? You did see that we get Avatar in the 40's in EQ2 ?</DIV></DIV><hr></blockquote>Some of the problem is with bugs, but others are caps that make us weak in the buff department. Our buffs mainly have utility solo-only due to stacking bugs and caps in groups. Have you actually popped the Persona screen and paid attention to stats in a group? Basically, Badger and SS are the only two buffs that offer utility (neither of which improve group melee output) since, chances are, you'll have at least one of the many other classes that have upgraded theirs past App I that will be firing off melee buffs that will also just hit the cap... so the only difference is sucking up concentration points so the group will be able to have the same stats outside an encounter...<blockquote><hr><DIV>Mystics are not the debuffer. Defilers are. They have some of the best debuffs in the game. Go back and compare a L50 EQLive Shaman (Kunark era spells only) to a L50 EQ2 Defiler. I think you'll find that the EQ2 Shaman is more than capable of doing the job, and frankly a Mystic can do most of those things too.</DIV></DIV><hr></blockquote>I can't speak for EQLive as I never bothered to play the game. In Everquest, Shaman were indeed strong debuffers. We obtained melee damage debuffs as low as level 14 that actually worked. We also obtained great slows as well as debuffers for all resistances, many of which were stackable. The Malxxxx line and pr/dr resistance debuffers, and the likes.Debuffers and wards are also the justification for our weaker healing capability, which as every mystic in EQ2 will tell you- we don't make any form of good healer from Tier 3 on. While we can manage on occasion, it needs near-perfect execution of a pull, a very beefy tank and a group that can manage aggro perfectly... else someone is going to die. Clerics and druids do not have this issue. EQ1 shaman in pre-50 game didn't have this issue either, just mana issues which a good shaman with canni could manage easily.<blockquote><hr><DIV>Tangible Slows? Hello? Are you comparing the L51 EQLive Turgurs Insects to a pre-L20 Slow in EQ2 ? Once again, go compare apples to apples. How does the EQLive pre-L20 Slow stack up to the EQ2 Slow. About the freakin' same. Pre 20 in EQLive, I didn't even PURCHASE the Slow spell.</DIV></DIV><hr></blockquote>Again, no idea about EQLive.. just Everquest. Once again, even level 14 Walking Sleep (peaked around 35%) coupled with Disempower had substantially more utility to help healing deficiencies than the Weakness/Wailing Haze nonsense we receive now. Only if a shaman in the teens decides to Adept Wailing Haze and fizzle 18 times to get one off can he/she expect to get similar benefit to supplement weaker healing capability.Wards are new to Shaman/Mystics in EQ2 and are there for a reason and weren't needed in Everquest. Unfortunately, they are implemented badly and 25+ Mystics are feeling that as they struggle to be healers in groups. This was NEVER the case in Everquest until the 60+ range, and even at this, it was only with certain mobs.<p>Message Edited by leatia on <span class=date_text>12-15-2004</span> <span class=time_text>02:41 PM</span>

Xran
12-16-2004, 04:34 AM
Let's stop comparing EQ1 or EQLive or Everquest with Everquest II.Saying which is better doesn't help devs to make EQII a better game.Wards are wards for Shaman in EQ2. They may be implemented worsethan EQ1 or EQLive or Everquest.Whatever the case, provide info, feedback, reasoning and other concretestuff as much as possible regarding on how we could best improve Shaman/Mystic.

ogg
12-16-2004, 11:07 PM
So very much wrong with your post leatia.<blockquote><hr>leatia wrote:<blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:<DIV><DIV>Disagree all you like, it won't make you right.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Invis for a CR ? What? Are you NUTS!?!?! CR's were done mostly by Necro's and SK's with summon corpse. In rare cases, a Rogue would do it because they had a FAR superior invis type ability.</DIV></DIV></DIV><hr></blockquote>So, you're saying you should hunt down a necro/SK and buy a coffin in EQ1? Sorry, in groups, not raids, that's lunacy and it was commonplace to pop invis and either drag corpses or get the group there to loot in EQ1. Which is besides the point, as you can't drag corpses in EQ2, it's now a case of finding someone with Smuggle to go retrieve shards. So they have taken an ability that even has MORE utility in EQ2 away from shaman. I'd say more than half of the pick-up groups where we have wiped deep- the priest should be able to get to the camp and process revives. Unfortunately, priests cant do this as they have no invis. The feather/gemstone works if you have a monk/sk or fd class, but again- the process of handling wipes deep in dungeons is only facilitating the hope and prayer you have an fd class along and also hope they were quick enough to FD.<hr></blockquote>Invis was sometimes used on CR's, rarely would it be reliable though since any zone that really had a true CR (ie: dungeon, not dreadlands...) there were going to be see invis mobs in the way - guaranteed, unless of course you were only 5 mobs into the zone or there were so many groups in the zone that all the mobs were dead anyway, and in those cases, who cares. Also, Shaman had the worst invis in the game, so it's not as though it was a selling point for EQ1 Shaman.<blockquote><hr>leatia wrote:<blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:<DIV>Pet? Our Pet? Oh, you mean dogdog the wonder pup. Even with Virtue, Muzzle of Mardu, Fists of Ixiblat, Girdle of the Magi'ko and every buff I could lay on him, dogdog couldn't tank Geo's in PoV for more than a round or two. His DPS against mobs near his level was about 30, and it dropped off tremendously as mobs got up toward 64+ in level. Nevermind that he could EASILY get one rounded by the trash mobs in a sewer trial.</DIV><hr></blockquote>I never had this problem with dogdog in EQ1. With just FOS, Swift like Wind and some summoned mage toys, he was a nice addition to DPS and could easily handle adds in PoF, PoE or other tier 2 planes, provided they were slowed/debuffed.</blockquote>While dogdog was a little DPS...did you even ever play a Shaman in EQ1?! You think he offtanked in "tier 2" Plane of Earth and Plane of Fire? Obviously you haven't actually tried to have him offtank in those zones, which may excuse your ignorance - but not the attempt at claiming seriously inaccurate facts. Fully buffed (even with HoV) and Q running he couldn't tank a real tier2 mob (like one in PoV) for a reasonable length of time.Also, uh, what "debuffs" other than slow are you talking about, because the only other one that technically affects mob dps is the cripple line and I sure hope you aren't referring to that one.<blockquote><hr>leatia wrote:<blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:<DIV>Melee buffs? Well, yea, at L65 a Shaman did have some nice melee buffs, but I would imagine that when my Shaman in EQ2 gets to that point he'll have some nice buffs as well. You did look at the Mystic spell list right? You did see that we get Avatar in the 40's in EQ2 ?</DIV></DIV><hr></blockquote>Some of the problem is with bugs, but others are caps that make us weak in the buff department. Our buffs mainly have utility solo-only due to stacking bugs and caps in groups. Have you actually popped the Persona screen and paid attention to stats in a group? Basically, Badger and SS are the only two buffs that offer utility (neither of which improve group melee output) since, chances are, you'll have at least one of the many other classes that have upgraded theirs past App I that will be firing off melee buffs that will also just hit the cap... so the only difference is sucking up concentration points so the group will be able to have the same stats outside an encounter...<hr></blockquote>As a 22 Mystic I haven't experienced any of your buff issues and keep every group buff up I can, all the time. Last I checked bull, badger, and seal are Shaman only buffs so you won't be competing to cast those unless you are grouped with another Shaman. What is the stat cap of EQ2 and are you honestly complaining about stat caps in EQ2 and using that as an argument for a loss of function from EQ1? Again, did you play a Shaman in EQ1? Stats in EQ1 were next to pointless past 255.<blockquote><hr>leatia wrote:<blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:<DIV>Mystics are not the debuffer. Defilers are. They have some of the best debuffs in the game. Go back and compare a L50 EQLive Shaman (Kunark era spells only) to a L50 EQ2 Defiler. I think you'll find that the EQ2 Shaman is more than capable of doing the job, and frankly a Mystic can do most of those things too.</DIV></DIV><hr></blockquote>I can't speak for EQLive as I never bothered to play the game. In Everquest, Shaman were indeed strong debuffers. We obtained melee damage debuffs as low as level 14 that actually worked. We also obtained great slows as well as debuffers for all resistances, many of which were stackable. The Malxxxx line and pr/dr resistance debuffers, and the likes.Debuffers and wards are also the justification for our weaker healing capability, which as every mystic in EQ2 will tell you- we don't make any form of good healer from Tier 3 on. While we can manage on occasion, it needs near-perfect execution of a pull, a very beefy tank and a group that can manage aggro perfectly... else someone is going to die. Clerics and druids do not have this issue. EQ1 shaman in pre-50 game didn't have this issue either, just mana issues which a good shaman with canni could manage easily.<hr></blockquote>More gems! First, I'm really hoping you mistook EQLive to mean Everquest:Online Adventures. Banditman is referring to EQ1 when he speaks of EQLive.Second, melee damage debuffs? Oh, you *are* referring to cripple! How cute! I'm glad you enjoyed that placebo, I'm sure the mobs were doing a lot less damage after you cast it. /rollseyes.Exactly which resistance debuffs are stackable? Oh, you mean Malox which does pr/cr/mr/fr and the decay line that does dr only? That's not exactly "stacking" in as much as a strength buff "stacks" with a sta buff.EQ1 Shaman sub 50 maybe don't have a problem being the only healer NOW, but they USED to. Greater Healing isn't exactly a super heal, which is all Shaman had to use back then. Also, using canni1 at level 50 is not the mana regen you seem to suggest. <blockquote><hr>leatia wrote:<blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:<DIV>Tangible Slows? Hello? Are you comparing the L51 EQLive Turgurs Insects to a pre-L20 Slow in EQ2 ? Once again, go compare apples to apples. How does the EQLive pre-L20 Slow stack up to the EQ2 Slow. About the freakin' same. Pre 20 in EQLive, I didn't even PURCHASE the Slow spell.</DIV></DIV><hr></blockquote>Again, no idea about EQLive.. just Everquest. Once again, even level 14 Walking Sleep (peaked around 35%) coupled with Disempower had substantially more utility to help healing deficiencies than the Weakness/Wailing Haze nonsense we receive now. Only if a shaman in the teens decides to Adept Wailing Haze and fizzle 18 times to get one off can he/she expect to get similar benefit to supplement weaker healing capability.Wards are new to Shaman/Mystics in EQ2 and are there for a reason and weren't needed in Everquest. Unfortunately, they are implemented badly and 25+ Mystics are feeling that as they struggle to be healers in groups. This was NEVER the case in Everquest until the 60+ range, and even at this, it was only with certain mobs.<p>Message Edited by leatia on <span class=date_text>12-15-2004</span> <span class=time_text>02:41 PM</span><hr></blockquote>Weakness/Wailing Haze is very powerful, just like all other priest debuff combos. I can't wait to see some good parses proving what plenty of us can feel already.Disempower was not a useful spell for anything other than generating aggro.I read just as many 25+ mystics saying they have no problems healing as there are saying otherwise.Please don't start up with the healing issues of Shaman in EQ1 though, talk about a dead horse. Go root around the crucible for that subject because you really have some catching up to do. However, I'm curious, what exactly are "certain mobs?"I don't really want to debate EQ2 Shamans though because I have no problems with mine yet. Other do sure, but many of the same people have poor gear for their level, don't know their class very well, don't know other classes very well, etc. What is irritating though is to read arguments about how the cripple line is an effective debuff and how dogdog can tank PoF mobs.<p>Message Edited by oggin on <span class=date_text>12-16-2004</span> <span class=time_text>10:11 AM</span><p>Message Edited by oggin on <span class=date_text>12-16-2004</span> <span class=time_text>10:25 AM</span>

Oni Tana
12-16-2004, 11:38 PM
<DIV>YO!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>    Wow,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This post got off topic very fast. To be honest, I don't think any replies really answered the questions I posed.</DIV> <DIV>It seems the people stating the hypocritical statements have no response so I am left to wonder if they are just complaining to complain or if they just aren't able to communicate the real issues at hand concerning wards(if any).</DIV> <DIV>As far as the above post concerning EVERQUEST shamans (EQ1 or EQLIVE mean same thing) ALL points he makes refuting earlier post are totally FACTUAL and correct.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is really nothing to add to his post as the poster he responded to could not possibly be more misinformed. Every single statement made was exact. Disempower line does nothing. MaloXX is pois/fire/cold/mag resist with insidious line being disease.</DIV> <DIV>PoF and PoE are not tier 2 zones and I highly doubt the poster ever got access to them.  Dogdog, try as he might, CANNOT off tank for squat in a real tier 2 like PoV/PoS let alone PoF/PoE. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At any rate hoping for someone to clear up questions in my first post. Just for curiousity sake at this point as I am having way too much fun being MA in pickup groups with my 19 warr(aint decided yet on sub). Had a cleric as my main healer who did not know that vitae was a heal spell!!!! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Later</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(too many people can't spell lose or too...  You don't loose aggro to much!)</DIV>

disru
12-16-2004, 11:54 PM
<blockquote><hr>Oni Tanaka wrote:<DIV>YO!</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I'll keep this short and sweet as I have seen some fairly long messages regarding wards.</DIV><DIV>I am not taking a side as I feel I haven't the right to do so being so low level at this point and time.</DIV><DIV>I am only lvl20(had 70 shaman)</DIV><DIV>Played EQ1 for 5 years(but totally realize and enjoy the difference in EQ2) so I realize what an inept healer is alllll about.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>O.K.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Most of the statements seem to boil down to lack of mitigation for wards.</DIV><DIV>It is not fair that other priests heals account for mitigation.</DIV><DIV>In addition, its the "style" moves abilities etc.. that are tearing up the wards in one or two shots.</DIV><DIV>Slow being a factor in this doesn't count because it doesnt affect speed of "style" moves that are doing the majority of the damage.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>AC and MITIGATION DO NOT AFFECT "special" ATTACKS!!!!</DIV><DIV>Period.</DIV><DIV>End of statement.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>So if one side is going to argue that wards are useless because they dont count for mitigation, and they only soak up one hit at higher levels and slow isn't a factor because the real damage comes form those "styles" then.....</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>The fact that mitigation has ZERO affect on said "styles" should not the be the complaint... AMOUNT of damage warded would seem to be the better fix.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>It is hypocritical to say that our wards suck because they go off before mitigation and then say that only the "style" attacks of the enemy do any significant damage.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Just a thought. I like my Mystic at this point but as I stated, I am too low level to have an opinion as to what "needs" to be changed.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>2 Priest stacking in same group ideas will be for another post <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>P.S. If I am totally off base please inform me as to what I misconstrued.</DIV><hr></blockquote>I have never brought up special attacks in any of my posts. Special attacks bypassing mitigation is something all healers are equal on. My concern is that a ward can be knocked off by 2-3 *normal* hits. Look at it over a 5 hit cycle:Ward:1st hit = blocked by ward2nd hit = blocked by ward3rd hit =half blocked by ward, 60dmg4th hit = 100 dmg5th hit = 100 dmgtotal health loss = 260hpsReactive heal:1st hit = 100 dmg, 92 health returned2nd hit = 100 dmg, 92 health returned3rd hit = 100 dmg, 92 health returned4th hit = 100 dmg, 92 health returned5th hit = 100 dmg, 92 health returnedtotal health loss = 40hpsI hope this clears up the issue for you. We are not whining, we do not hate our class, most of us love our class, we just think wards need some tuning.<p>Message Edited by disrupt on <span class=date_text>12-16-2004</span> <span class=time_text>10:54 AM</span>

Banditman
12-17-2004, 12:47 AM
<DIV>The fact that leatia didn't know that EQLive *is* Everquest 1 speaks volumes about his/her credibility in this discussion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would love to see this person grab dogdog and have it go tank some mobs in HoH or Tactics.  It'd be worth a one month subscription to EQLive just to see that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

leatia
12-17-2004, 02:53 AM
>> So very much wrong with your post leatia.<<I can tell there are few high-end Shaman from Everquest on this forum!I gave up EQ with a level 70 Shaman, Time flagged, 140AA's.>>Invis was sometimes used on CR's, rarely would it be reliable though since any zone >>that really had a true CR (ie: dungeon, not dreadlands...) there were going to be see >>invis mobs in the way - guaranteed, unless of course you were only 5 mobs into the zone >>or there were so many groups in the zone that all the mobs were dead anyway, and in those >>cases, who cares. Also, Shaman had the worst invis in the game, so it's not as though >>it was a selling point for EQ1 Shaman.This was more a later introduced issue... about the same time Rogue sneak/hide became less useful in favor of AA's. Prior (i.e. pre-PoP, pre-Luclin) Shaman invis and see-invis mobs were dramatically reduced. And yes, it wasnt the most stable invis but it was better than nothing.>>While dogdog was a little DPS...did you even ever play a Shaman in EQ1?! You think he >>offtanked in "tier 2" Plane of Earth and Plane of Fire? Obviously you haven't actually tried >>to have him offtank in those zones, which may excuse your ignorance - but not the attempt at >>claiming seriously inaccurate facts. Fully buffed (even with HoV) and Q running he couldn't >>tank a real tier2 mob (like one in PoV) for a reasonable length of time.LOL.. Wow, I guess all the months of soloing mobs in PoF for grinding exp with my dogdog was obviously a figment of my imagination. Go figure.Actually, you had to add the disclaimer of "a reasonable length of time" which is true. No pet can flat out tank planar mobs for "a reasonable length of time" without special attention. Yard trash in Fire, he'd manage adds (albeit taxing) and functioned as free dps.>>Also, uh, what "debuffs" other than slow are you talking about, because the only other one >>that technically affects mob dps is the cripple line and I sure hope you aren't referring to that one.Try parsing Cripple line, especially with mobs that have procs. The AC reduction alone does have a smallish, but measurable impact for anyone that has done any amount of soloing.>>As a 22 Mystic I haven't experienced any of your buff issues and keep every group buff up I can, >>all the time. Last I checked bull, badger, and seal are Shaman only buffs so you won't be competing >>to cast those unless you are grouped with another Shaman. Again, pay attention to stats you are buffing. Mark where they are with bull, then remove bull for a fight or two and watch during the encounter. You'll see in a massive variety of groups, it's useless.>>What is the stat cap of EQ2 and are you honestly complaining about stat caps in EQ2 and >>using that as an argument for a loss of function from EQ1? Again, did you play a Shaman in EQ1? >>Stats in EQ1 were next to pointless past 255.PLAYER Stats in EQ1 were near pointless over 200, but that's not the argument. lol.The point is- TANKS and other melees didn't have group stat buffs in EQ1. If YOU ever played EQ1 past the newbie zones or teen levels, you'd also know hitting caps weren't that simple at those levels. Sure, by the higher-end game most decent guild players hit AA boosted caps unbuffed but this was an issue with EQ1. EQ2 just seems to move that issue down into the extreme low-end by having just about every class offer group-level buffs... just for Melee's they only last 30 seconds to 2 minutes and are performed in battle. Hence my comment about how conc. points are most often solely to provide increased stats outside of encounters as ours last hours versus per-battle called.>>More gems! First, I'm really hoping you mistook EQLive to mean Everquestnline Adventures. Banditman >>is referring to EQ1 when he speaks of EQLive.I have no clue what Everquest is called outside the states. It's always been "Everquest" or "Everquest Trilogy" here. I've never heard of "EQLive", albeit the official Sony forums have "Everquest LIVE" banner at the top.I appologize if I havent taken the time to deeply study Sony games, their entire heritage of spin-offs and console variants and their respective copyrighted names.>>Second, melee damage debuffs? Oh, you *are* referring to cripple! How cute! I'm glad you enjoyed that >>placebo, I'm sure the mobs were doing a lot less damage after you cast it. /rollseyes.Glad you can roll your eyes at reduced procs from procing mobs and decreased damage mitigation. I'm also glad you feel the only kind of "debuff" is something that reduces mob dps... there ARE other definitions of "debuff" you know.>>EQ1 Shaman sub 50 maybe don't have a problem being the only healer NOW, but they USED to. Greater Healing >>isn't exactly a super heal, which is all Shaman had to use back then. Also, using canni1 at level 50 is not >>the mana regen you seem to suggest.My first Shaman was Kunark/pre-velious. The only issue was with mana regen, which was clearly noted. There was an upgrade questable at that point for canni, but mana regen was still an issue. Again, a GOOD shaman could manage this with scripts and still play main healer albeit with much effort. The mobs didnt hit that hard at that stage anyways, so it's a conflicted comparison.>>I don't really want to debate EQ2 Shamans though because I have no problems with mine yet. Other do sure, >>but many of the same people have poor gear for their level, don't know their class very well, don't know >>other classes very well, etc. What is irritating though is to read arguments about how the cripple line >>is an effective debuff and how dogdog can tank PoF mobs.It's extraordinarily easy to create an argument when the sole basis of your argument needs special circumstances and mismatched eras and timepoints in EQ1. Cripple line, while near meaningless for the insane DPS and less stat-reliant post-Velius mobs, served it's purpose flawlessly for the time it was used. This speaks nothing of resistance debuffs as well. It's already been queried too many times to mention how many EQ2 casters have looked towards Mystics to reduce resists. It's always the same line of "we dont get Malo in this game, sorry"And if maybe you got some time playing a Shaman in PoP, you'd understand just how useful our pet truly was.Warmest regards

Mystiq
12-17-2004, 03:44 AM
<DIV>Man....talk about a derailed post. How did this thread turn into a longwinded discussion on EQ1 shaman pets?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyways, not sure if I'm out of the loop or not, but is Oni Tanaka's statement about specials ignoring AC quantifiable? I know special attacks by definition do more damage than regular hits, but as to whether they ignore AC when they land, I'm just not sure. If this is the case, well, it's not necessarily a bad thing considering player specials should act the same way. It is however still bad news for the ward debate, and just what course of action should be done to improve ward's effectiveness is unclear at this point. I wish I knew if the devs were at all looking into our concerns about this issue, and if so, what their thoughts were on how to make wards more viable.</DIV>

Rone
12-17-2004, 04:52 AM
<DIV>I have always personally felt myself that the Wards are fairly useless especially against higher lvl mobs due to the fact the damage they can deal out takes the ward off more or less in 1 hit. Atm im lvl 31 and despite finding Ward spells only partially useful if you have a fellow healer who can HoT they dont do much for me. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On another note, do you feel that slow and weakening spells actually do much, ive always been wondering this because despite casting both on a target they seem to still deal the same damage at the same rate..</DIV><p>Message Edited by Roneow on <span class=date_text>12-16-2004</span> <span class=time_text>03:53 PM</span>

Xran
12-17-2004, 06:55 AM
I don't know effectiveness of Slow. However don't be mistaken with "feeling" mobs still hit same.Until we have a parsing, feeling for every spells can be varying.

Banditman
12-17-2004, 08:54 PM
<DIV>Once again, the fact that you know Shaman were soloing in PoF but not how they did it says only that you DIDNT do it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(just for future reference, Elemental Shaman root-rotted at the tables in PoF, they didn't send dogdog in to tank or DPS.  In fact, most "end game" Shaman never even bothered to summon their pet because it was more trouble than it was worth)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>140 AA's is not very high for an Elemental (let alone Time flagged) Shaman.  Perhaps you boxed a Shaman?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My poor little unguilded, 4 flags short of SolRo Shaman had well over 100 AA's.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Incidentally, how much AA were you getting per solo kill at the tables in PoF?</DIV>

leatia
12-18-2004, 01:56 AM
Well Banditman, when you finally get Fire flagged, you'll be in the position to argue. If there's one thing I've learned from playing EQ, it's a moot point to argue with folks about things you do every day. Guildies and I have gotten the same treatment and in the past provided logs, recorded MPG's.. and still had ninnies crying "EQEmu!" ... even gone to the point of giving a retired guildmates account stripped so as they could sit and watch on the actual server to then get "You guys must have an invis GM helping" nonsense. And yes, 140AA's isn't a lot of AA's. I still ground exp in PoF solo, dogdog worked well and I wasn't one that use the AE trick for Fire trash grouped in order to power through AA's even though my fellow guildies did it regularly. It's amazing to me some people require casting a Shaman pet as greater than a Mage or Necro pet in order to form their argument. Nothing of the sort was even hinted... but it does have great utility, great for help with managing adds, and a GOOD shaman player knows how to do this.

Banditman
12-20-2004, 10:04 PM
<DIV>Once again you prove yourself uninformed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shaman didn't do any "AE trick" . . . in fact Shaman have precious few AE spells at all.  Bards did Swarm Kiting . . . a practice that was nerfed months ago but did involve using an "AE trick" and a couple other songs in a twist to kill large numbers of mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Root rotting is the practice of using a root plus the proper DoT's to kill a mob without ever engaging in melee.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've been 85'ed into PoF plenty of times when some friends needed to make numbers for a raid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sounds to me like you're a couple years out of date on EQLive Shaman.</DIV>

Karla
12-20-2004, 10:49 PM
<DIV>This is not about eq1 or eqlive no one gives a crap about those 2 games, and if you do, your on the wrong forum.</DIV>

Banditman
12-21-2004, 08:18 PM
<DIV>If you don't care about EQLive you are in the wrong game.  Without EQLive, you wouldn't be here now.  Thanks for playing tho.</DIV>

leatia
12-24-2004, 03:09 AM
<blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:<DIV>Once again you prove yourself uninformed.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Shaman didn't do any "AE trick" . . . in fact Shaman have precious few AE spells at all. Bards did Swarm Kiting . . . a practice that was nerfed months ago but did involve using an "AE trick" and a couple other songs in a twist to kill large numbers of mobs.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Root rotting is the practice of using a root plus the proper DoT's to kill a mob without ever engaging in melee.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I've been 85'ed into PoF plenty of times when some friends needed to make numbers for a raid.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Sounds to me like you're a couple years out of date on EQLive Shaman.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Once again, you prove how uninformed you are.. but heck, that much was apparent when you admitted you weren't even Fire flagged. It's amazing someone reckons themselves the end-all/know-it-all for a zone they have never even exp'd in. (Raiding birds/mag and the like is FAR from daily AA grinding in a zone).And if you can actually read, it was put very clear the "AE trick" is GROUPED (go ahead, look at the post again) and with Guildies. Fast AA is achieved but only needs one wizard grouped at zone in. You can pull half the zone of gutter trash with the shaman kiting near zone-in and get AA's at extreme speed. Fire is notorious for this as the gutter trash is great exp and doesnt hit all that hard.<p>Message Edited by leatia on <span class=date_text>12-23-2004</span> <span class=time_text>02:11 PM</span>

Mooz
12-24-2004, 08:48 AM
RE:disrupt>Ward:>1st hit = blocked by ward>2nd hit = blocked by ward>3rd hit =half blocked by ward, 60dmg>4th hit = 100 dmg>5th hit = 100 dmg>total health loss = 260hps>Reactive heal:>1st hit = 100 dmg, 92 health returned>2nd hit = 100 dmg, 92 health returned>3rd hit = 100 dmg, 92 health returned>4th hit = 100 dmg, 92 health returned>5th hit = 100 dmg, 92 health returned>total health loss = 40hpsWhat should happen so that the ward is 100% balanced with clericsFix Ward:1st hit = 92 hp blocked by ward 8dmg gets though2nd hit = 92 hp blocked by ward 8dmg gets though3rd hit = 92 hp blocked by ward 8dmg gets though4th hit = 92 hp blocked by ward 8dmg gets though5th hit = 92 hp blocked by ward 8dmg gets thoughtotal health loss = 40hpsThis has the advantage that when you have a cleric and a shaman in the group and you take on a mob that hits for 200 hp1st hit = 200 dmg,92 hp blocked by ward,92 health returned,16hp dmg2st hit = 200 dmg,92 hp blocked by ward,92 health returned,16hp dmg (cleric buff AC proc goes off)3st hit = 200 dmg,92 hp blocked by ward,92 health returned,16hp dmg4st hit = 200 dmg,92 hp blocked by ward,92 health returned,16hp dmg5st hit = 200 dmg,92 hp blocked by ward,92 health returned,16hp dmgCleric casts Combat heal, healing the 80hp loss and buffing the tank with an attack buff.Now add a druid and take on a mob that hits for 300 <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I don't think its intended for shamans to spam wards on the tank and the tanks hp stay at 100% and he is never hit...TuluLv22 TemplarQeynos Najena

Banditman
12-24-2004, 07:40 PM
<DIV>Unfortunately, that won't fly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First off, in your numbers, you show Wards as having well over 450 points.  They don't.  A Cleric with BoV returning 102 health per proc has a spell equivalent to a Shaman with a Ward that absorbs 403 points of damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Second, Wards will ALWAYS take more damage because they are pre-mitigation.  So, while a Cleric might need to heal 450 points of actual damage, the Ward would have needed to absorb 600.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The overall functionality is only important if the values are equivalent.</DIV>