PDA

View Full Version : Are Wards underpowered?


disru
12-09-2004, 03:50 AM
I've researched this as much as I could. Searching the web for as much info I could dig up. However, I do understand that my numbers still may be off because I can't seem to find exact description of spells anywhere. The comparisions are based at around level 25.Priest class Specialized heals:Shaman - Spectral Ward app3 - 55 power cost - absorbs 403 unmitigated damage (absorbs damage as if AC was 0) - remaining ward is no longer converted to instant heal after duration ends. (this was changed after beta ended)Clerics - Bestowal of Vitae app3 - 55 power cost - reactively heals 102 dmg when the benefactor takes damage. expires after 5 or 6 activations. Heal factors in after damage is mitigated.Druid - Regrowth app3 - 55 power cost - heals approximately 80 health per tick for 6 ticks. Heal factors in after damage is mitigated.So we have:Shaman add a pool of 402 non-armor class mitigated HPs on top of the targets current HP ammount.Clerics provide a total of 510-612 HPs to the target after the target takes normal armor class mitigated damage.Druids provide a total of approximately 480 HPs to the target over a period of 6 ticks while the target is taking normal armor class mitigated damage.So lets put this in a senario (this is just hypothetical):A Guardian, a druid, a shaman, and a cleric are all grouped.The Guardian has 1500HPs and 1600AC.The guardian pulls a mob that hit him on average for 100 dmg per hit buffed.When the Guardian gets back to the group he has 1300HPs left.Each of the priests cast their specialized form of healing the Guardian.The Guardian now has 1380HPs (+80 from one tick of Regrowth) + a 403HP, 0AC Ward.The mob hits the Guardian's Ward for 380dmg (due to unmitigated damage).The mob hits the Guardian's Ward for 23 dmg + the Guardian for 90dmg. The Guardian now has 1290HPs left.The Guardian now has 1370HPs left. (+80 from 2nd Regrowth tick).The mob hits the Guardian for 100dmg, the Guardian now has 1372HPs left (+102 from Reactive heal).The mob hits the Guardian for 100dmg, the Guardian now has 1374HPs left (+102 from Reactive heal).The Guardian now has 1454HPs left. (+80 from 3rd Regrowth tick).The mob hits the Guardian for 100dmg, the Guardian now has 1456HPs left (+102 from Reactive heal).The mob hits the Guardian for 100dmg, the Guardian now has 1458HPs left (+102 from Reactive heal).The Guardian now has 1500HPs left. (+80 from 4th Regrowth tick).We'll stop here since the Guardian is now back to full health but I'm sure you all get the picture.Looking at this situation, It seems that Cleric and Druid healing are more benefical than shaman healing.It seems to me that just allowing Wards to absorb damage after its been mitigated would balance everything out nicely.How does everyone else feel about this? Are wards underpowered in your opinion?

k
12-09-2004, 08:14 AM
<DIV>Yes I have always worried that at higher levels the wards would suffer greatly due to the fact that it is 0 AC. A cleric/druid can rely on the MT absorbing a good amount of dmg with his armour and thus healing the remainder where as the ward does not take it into account and can be used up in 2 good hits. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The ward has to be either bumped up with more HP or include the AC of the person that it has been casted or we will never be able to come close to the healing abilities of the clerics/druids.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would like others opinons too but i think this is a very imporant thread that should be brought to the attentions of the devs.</DIV><p>Message Edited by kfc on <span class=date_text>12-09-2004</span> <span class=time_text>11:16 AM</span>

Ko
12-09-2004, 10:56 AM
<DIV>Yes. Agreed Fully.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am only lvl 21. But I do solo alot, so I get beat on alot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At Lower lvls, when your AC is weak, ward seems like the best spell in the world. Only when your Ac is above 1000, does it become apparant that wards tend to cost more mana than they do good. Casting a Ward on your self is basically avoiding one blow from an Enemy. 55 mana for 1 hit , thats just not fair. Casting Wards on any form of a Tank is basically a waste. you couldve rather let the tank get 5-6 times, and give him one simple heal, instead of Chain-Warding.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont know how hard mobs hit at higher lvls. But at my lvl Mobs hit Ward for 200-300 at times, Mobs hit me for for 50-100 and I have a measely AC of 1019. So at lvl 40-50 , mobs will be hitting wards for 1000? If not much more? Thus a ward will not even aborb one single blow. This is a problem and it does need to be looked at.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Agree fully with the fact, that it needs to take in account the AC of the targeted player.</DIV>

Merrygr
12-09-2004, 12:06 PM
<DIV>I wouldn't say anything good or bad about the any of the heals until they have been parsed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally I'm starting to suspect that my ward is becoming rather useless, but then again, I'm close to getting my next version so that might be as it should be. </DIV> <DIV>Wards also let a lot of magic damage get through. On a casting mob I have serious trouble keeping the MT alive. A lot of times I get saved by the fact that there is at last one paladin in my regular group. Only having 2 direct heals (at lvl 25 I don't count the arch heal I have) makes it almost impossible to keep up.</DIV>

Darjeelin
12-09-2004, 12:09 PM
<DIV>Agree.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also from the Dec. 3 patch notes:</DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Both NPCs and players now do more damage at level 20 and above. Damage and healing spells have been increased in potency accordingly.<BR></STRONG></DIV> <DIV>Anyone notice a change in wards?</DIV>

k
12-09-2004, 12:32 PM
<DIV>Ive noticed that mobs do more damage and wards are needed to be recasted almost as soon as I cast them and yes magic just gets though everything so again another thing that clerics/druids have over us.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is there anyone in the high 20's that can comment ?</DIV>

Zlat
12-09-2004, 01:15 PM
<DIV>Not sure its useless, i find it  very nice vs 3-4 inc mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If either cleric or druid cast a heal or HoT on incoming, they will get aggro even with the tank AE shouting (aggro spell). This is bad, no further explanation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the shammy cast a ward either before incoming or immediately after mobs engage, he will not draw aggro due to lower hate of wards (compared to HoT and react. heals). Add another ward when first is gone and then tank will have built sufficient aggro to be able to hold the mobs' attention for the entire fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just my opinion, wards have a different application and are not "directly" comparable to heals.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Z</DIV>

Merrygr
12-09-2004, 01:15 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kfc wrote:<BR> <DIV>Ive noticed that mobs do more damage and wards are needed to be recasted almost as soon as I cast them and yes magic just gets though everything so again another thing that clerics/druids have over us.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is there anyone in the high 20's that can comment ?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Just a comment on the magic bit. Only the druids heal works against magic attacks. The cleric heal relies on the tank being hit by melee. Although it is better than ours in that even casters do melee, so they do get some health back (priveded they get hit).<BR>

Quilli
12-09-2004, 01:40 PM
<DIV>I still dont have problems finding groups at 24 but I can see how this could become a problem.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A simple solution is, as mentioned letting our ward take effect after ac or giving us more damage to absorb on it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd also like to see heal spelld heal our ward if target has ward to heal (so if ward lost 250 hits and someone cast heal it gains 250 hits back first then heals target, unless at full health then just heals ward).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just my thougths.</DIV>

Ko
12-09-2004, 01:47 PM
<DIV>The main problem here, is not that wards suck, on the contrary they are extremely usefull...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem is, that wards at higher lvls (Specualation) Wont keep up. Since players AC and Health increase over levels, so does the amount of Damage a Monster does. This is fine and dandy. Cause heals also increase, and so does the amount of health Wards Absorb. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but what is being left out, is that Wards asborb Pure dmg. a Mob hitting a ward, does close to its max dmg everytime. Imagine you are naked without armour on, and you get hit then...that is the dmg the Ward is taking. This means that a nice 600 Point ward. Will Maybe take 2 hits from a lvl 25-30 monster. As that monster will hit for 300 considering you arent wearing Armour.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now take your normal Tank with say 1500 Armour. if he gets hit, he might only get hit for 100...So even with our crappy heals. We could still be saving mana by rather healing, than warding. So much more for Templars and Druids. Who actually get usefull heals. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the ward does not get improved. We will drastically need Additional Heals or our Heals pumped up. I dont know if Mystics can keep up with Serious Mobs at higher lvls.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a lvl 21, I obviously dont know all I need to know, and I Might very well be wrong. This is Speculation, and goign on the word of other higher lvl mystics.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But one thing I did notice... : I went to CoB last night with a lvl 20 Berserker and a lvl 19 Predator. We pulled a single Shriller Blue ^^ to me. By the Time I was able to recast Ward on the Zerker. The mob had not only Gone through the first Ward, but it had also taken a Chunk of the Zerkers life. Then my Ward would land again, and I would Queue the 3rd ward. Same thing before 3rd ward was cast. The tank had lost yet more life. So I had to heal him. That is when I saw, the tank getting beat on , and me healign every 5th hit or so...was easier, than me Chain Warding him. And Alot easier on Mana. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wards are nice for Aggro purposes...but considering that Mobs hit a Ward for 200-300, means a Ward at my lvl drops in 1-2 hits. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's a great spell. It just needs to Take into account the AC of the Person it is on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I now most of this has been said. Just tought I would try and clear it up a bit more.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Koos on <span class=date_text>12-09-2004</span> <span class=time_text>12:51 AM</span>

Glorfindel
12-09-2004, 03:41 PM
<DIV>Lvl 28 shammy here, I can confirm that against higher-level mobs (highest I've went up against was 36), I do in fact have to chain cast both my wards to keep them up, and the tank still ends up losing some hp. Not the case vs. white con mobs, but after you hit mid-20s you don't ever fight anything less than yellow con (my last 2 levels have been almost exclusively red cons).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Actually though, the AC of the tank does seem to make a difference in how long the wards last -> had a 29 zerker and 30 SK in grp last night and the wards definitely lasted longer on the SK. Could have something to do with levels affecting hit%, but the difference was significant.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Glorfindel85 on <span class=date_text>12-09-2004</span> <span class=time_text>02:42 AM</span>

Ko
12-09-2004, 04:48 PM
<DIV>I reckon, that was probably simply cause the mob hit the lvl30 less than the lvl29 because of the Defense and Lvl Difference.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks for posting though Glorf...least now its confirmed that at later stages the Wards are below required strentgh...</DIV><p>Message Edited by Koos on <span class=date_text>12-09-2004</span> <span class=time_text>03:52 AM</span>

Zuul
12-09-2004, 06:00 PM
<DIV> <DIV>Former 21 Warden here, now 11th Shaman on working twords Mystic. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You are forgetting one very important detail when comparing healing. A lesson I learned in EQ1 as a 65th Shaman. Mystics/Defilers have single target slows. Mystics also get AoE starting at 35th level with Grim Lethargy. Lets use the numbers you mentioned;</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff00>Shaman - Spectral Ward app3 - 55 power cost - absorbs 403 unmitigated damage total.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff00><BR>Clerics - Bestowal of Vitae app3 - 55 power cost - reactively heals 102 dmg when the benefactor takes damage. expires after 5 or 6 activations. Heal factors in after damage is mitigated. 612 hp total.<BR><BR>Druid - Regrowth app3 - 55 power cost - heals approximately 80 health per tick for 6 ticks. Heal factors in after damage is mitigated. 480hp total.</FONT></DIV><FONT color=#99ff00></FONT></DIV> <P><FONT color=#99ff00><FONT color=#ffffff>Now, factor in the Mystic/Defilers slow spell. I'm not certain what percentage the various slow spells are atm, but lets be conservative and use 30% (EQ1, if I recall correctly my highest slow spell was around 70% at 65th). If you keep the mob slowed from the beginning of the encounter to the end, with a Shaman in the group it will dish out 1/3 less dmg than it would with a cleric/druid.  Its interesting to note, that the shaman ward heals for 2/3 the total of the clerics RH. Combine the Ward/Slow, and the Cleric & Shaman are nearly identical in the ability to sustain hp. Actual slow % may vary, but you can see how balance is maintained. </FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#99ff00><FONT color=#ffffff>Now, that is with 1 mob hitting the MT. Factor in the AoE slow spell on 5-6 mobs all hitting the MT, then run the numbers. 5-6 Mobs x 1000dmg each = Y. Then, Y - 30%. When looking at the Druid, if they keep a dmg shield up on the MT all the mobs will take extra dmg which equates to quicker kills and less dmg. The only problem I have with that is...agro management. As it stand, Mages & scouts are always over agroing the MT do to inexperience or lack of regard. For the Druid to have the same impact, he would have to keep a dmg shield up on all the players getting hit...I really don't want to deal with that, and prefer the AoE so as to take it out of their hands. If you have a well functioning group, agro control isnt a problem.....</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#99ff00><FONT color=#ffffff>In a nutshell, if the Shaman ward healed the same as the Clerics RH, and/or the Druids HoT healed for the same then both the Shaman/Druid would be over powered due to Slow/dmg shield respectively. The SoE Dev team did a great job at balance!!!</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#99ff00><FONT color=#ffffff>Solaufein</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#99ff00><FONT color=#ffffff>(P.S - Just thought about it and forgot to mention...Shaman will also get haste spells later on, which will increase dmg output and decrease dmg by allowing the melee DPS players to output more dmg = quicker deaths & less dmg...</FONT></P> <DIV><BR></DIV></FONT> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Zuulax on <SPAN class=date_text>12-09-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:48 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Zuulax on <span class=date_text>12-09-2004</span> <span class=time_text>05:48 AM</span>

Ko
12-09-2004, 06:49 PM
<DIV>Yes, the problem is, that each healing class has a Spell that Evens out the others (Apparantly) :</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is the Templars = to The Mystic Slow....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT size=2>24.3</FONT><FONT size=2>Reproach  </FONT><FONT size=2>Reduces Trauma (Crushing, Slashing, and Piercing) mitigations on the target. (Can only be focused on one target at a time)</FONT><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT></EM></DIV> <P>It is not a bad spell, infact I reckon its a very good spell...</P> <P>So now Slow has its Counter.</P> <P>Dont Get me wrong I love slow. But each other class has a Spell that is just as Usefull. be it Damage shield, or simply a increase in Melee Resistance. All of these lower overall dmg of the Mob in some form or another.</P> <P>So we are back at the fact that Ward does not Equal The other Healers Healing spells at higher levels.</P> <P>Message Edited by Koos on <SPAN class=date_text>12-09-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:50 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Koos on <span class=date_text>12-09-2004</span> <span class=time_text>05:51 AM</span>

Ko
12-09-2004, 07:04 PM
<DIV>I havent seen a Haste in any of the spell lists. But if there is one, I will be extremely happy. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

Neddy_The_Mage
12-09-2004, 07:17 PM
<DIV> <P>I see a lot of people saying that wards class you as having AC 0, has this actually been stated by a developer or are this people just assuming that is the case? </P> <P>The reason I ask this is a friend of mine plays a berserker and I asked him to keep an eye on how much my wards were stopping, compared to the damage he took while not warded he told me the numbers were about the same. Also when am warded the ward stops about the same as the average hit I take when not warded.</P> <P>The only time I see a ward take a massive hit is when a mob uses a spell or combat art. I tend to notice this more at the start of a fight when the mob opens up with a few special attacks, my ward is typically gone in one or two hits. And if I don’t ward the tank when the same level mob is pulled I can see his health drop by a bubble or two in a matter of seconds. </P> <P>AC/defense is not just damage mitigation it also takes into account how easy it is to hit you. If AC/def was 0 a mob should hit you every attack for full damage when you are warded (assuming there is not a set chance to miss no matter your skill) , I have seen many<SPAN>  </SPAN>occasions were my ward stops so much damage, then the mob misses me, then more damage is stopped by my ward. I've also seen parry message while I have been warded. So other skills are taken into account while warded and best i can see so is my AC/def. This assumes I haven't just been very lucky and most mobs have not hit me for max while I've been warded, which is always a possibility.</P> <P>koradin</P></DIV>

Banditman
12-09-2004, 07:24 PM
<DIV>Avatar has a haste component, I believe it is in the 40's somewhere.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want to make an arguement for or against Wards, it has to start with Slow.  Take a solid group into someplace like Stormhold or TS.  Have your MT turn on logging.  Start fighting mobs.  Don't cast Slow *at all*.  After an hour, mark time and start using Slow on EVERY mob.  Get another hour worth of data.  Get the MT to send you the log.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This should allow you to approximate how much effect our Slow has on mobs.  At that point, you can compare "apples to apples" in Wards vs Reactive / Regen.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm guessing our Slow is in the 25% area.  In EQLive, "The Great Slow Nerf" (tm) pegged the Shaman's best Slow back to about 38% on average, and I'd be really surprised if this Dev team allowed Slow to get anywhere near that number this early in the game.</DIV>

Zuul
12-09-2004, 07:31 PM
<DIV> <DIV>I can only speculate at this point, but I do not believe that this single target debuff will come anywhere close to the dmg preventing effects of the mystic AoE slow, or single target slow. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Reproach will allow the party to take down 1 mob faster. AoE Slow will cause multiple mobs to attack slower. The more mobs + the greater the slow % = massive dmg reduction. The more mobs this effects, the greater the dmg saving. And the Shaman single target slows are usually a higher % then the AoE's. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are many outside factors to consider besides just the HoT, RH & Ward. I didn't mention the Mystics strength/stamina/hp/ac or debuffs. Im sure Avatar is going to be a tremendous benefit to melee players, plus Slows and Wards...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's possible that the wards dmg protection isn't scaling properly at higher levels. I'm just saying that you cant just compare the HoT, RH, & Wards alone because if the three different classes healed the same way, for the same amount, there would be no reason to have three different classes. One spell doesn't define a class/sub-class, it's the sum of all that make us different from each other while arriving at the same goal = keeping the party alive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Perhaps the Shamans slow % needs to be increased, or the Druids dmg shield needs to be increased. There are many ways to realign the balance if it's scewed twords the cleric....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Solaufein</DIV></DIV>

Po
12-09-2004, 08:08 PM
<DIV>Well let's see, you can take...400dmg in rune...or heal for almost 500 with adept 1 ritual...i'd say let the midigation take it's course and screw the microing. Have yet to see the upper wards tho...and my traditions...**mods 4 teh win!!1!** soe your fired i want my traditions NOW...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Yours truly,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Poac #1 mystic on guk!!!</DIV>

se
12-09-2004, 08:10 PM
Slow is almost uneffective at this point. From my parses wailing haze is a ~10% reduction in normal attacks and no reduction in special attacks/spells in the same given time period. Since the majority of damage done comes from special attacks (unless you have really really long fights) even at higher levels when the slow percentage is higher it's effectiveness will be dampered.Perhaps my parses are wrong (I'm hoping they are).. ~10% is certainly within a range of error but with wailing haze I showed no difference in special attacks and a slight decrease in normal attack which averaged to 10%. Test was done with me and only me tanking the same npcs of the exact same level.

k
12-09-2004, 08:46 PM
<DIV><SPAN>Zuulax,  the slow is no where near 30% its 10% at the most. As indicated by devs the slow will not come close to the slow reduction of EQ1.</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN>So are you saying that to have the same effective healing abilities as a cleric / druid we must not only cast the ward but apply all our debuffs and slows as well? </SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN>1) You barely have any time to do it. As said by others you are almost chain casting ward if you try and put in a debuff in between your MT is almost dead.</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN>Cast ward on MT</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN>MT almost dead when he returns </SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN>Recast ward</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN>Heal</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN>About to try and cast haze </SPAN><SPAN>no time main tank getting hammered </SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN>Recast ward</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN>Recast ward</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN>low on mana </SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN>Emergency Ward</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN>Any adds and we evac.</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN>Remember this does not apply from lvl 10 - 20..it just dosent happen, ward rules and you think your a king as soon as you hit 20 you will notice how much mobs hit and how 2 hits kill the ward, as an indication of time 2 hits happen just after you finish casting the ward.</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN></SPAN><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>

Karla
12-09-2004, 09:55 PM
<DIV>Ok this is how I see it and may I am wrong.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are 3 main healing classes:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cleric</DIV> <DIV>Shaman</DIV> <DIV>Druid</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regardless of what SOE says the template ofr each one follows closely to EQ1 in a way</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Clerices heal the best and buff the best, Buffing mostly HP and AC</DIV> <DIV>Shaman debuff the best and buff secondaries like power, str ,sta, etc</DIV> <DIV>Druids nuke/damage the best and also buff secondaries.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They are all good healers but if you are expecting a druid or shaman to keep a group alive in a 4-5 puill of orange double up arrows...... forget it.  Not gonna happen.</DIV> <DIV>Anyway all of the best groups I have been in have been with 2 healers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Zuul
12-09-2004, 10:53 PM
<DIV>Kfc wrote:</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff00> <HR> </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#99ff00>the slow is no where near 30% its 10% at the most. As indicated by devs the slow will not come close to the slow reduction of EQ1.</FONT> <DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#99ff00>So are you saying that to have the same effective healing abilities as a cleric / druid we must not only cast the ward but apply all our debuffs and slows as well? </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#99ff00> <HR> </FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mystics get Keening Haze at 24th lvl, and howling haze at 38th lvl. I agree wailing haze is very weak, but it's also a 10th level spell. I wouldn't expect miracles from a spell at 10th level. Also note, you can upgrade your slows from app1 to adept3 with a little effort. Im pretty sure (but again only speculating) that the adept3 will have a higher % then app1. I talk with many priests that have adept3 Wards/HoT/RH, but almost none of the Shaman/Druids I speak with have higher then app3 dmg shield/slows. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And yes, that is exactly what I am saying. As you level up you begin relying more on your instant heal <U>and</U> HoT/RH/Ward to control hp loss. Clerics use a more direct method of healing where as Shaman/Druid will need to use Ward/Slow & HoT/DmgShield.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If your MT is dropping so fast your healer(s) have to chain heal I have to ask some questions. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>>Is your MT's armor at least even con or greater?</DIV> <DIV>>Are the encounters your fighting blue - white^^, or yellow - red ^^?</DIV> <DIV>>What tier upgrades are your Ward/Slow?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I often fight with a second healer in my group because atm, it seems safer. I work best with a cleric or druid as both have abilities which compliment my own. In a group at any level with 2 healers where the MT has average or better armor, fighting even con encounters, with both healers having app3 or better I have never had to chain heal. I have more then enough time to toss a couple DoTs or even nukes if I so desire. The only time I have to scramble is to heal a mage/scout when they over agro..or heal they other priest when they get agro from saving the mage/scouts ars from over agro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Solaufein</DIV>

Saraphi
12-09-2004, 11:52 PM
<DIV>I think the devs gave shamans slow for a reason. Using all of our tools effiicently we can do awsome work as healers. Some people have said 'dont debuff so much' and I just ignore them. They want direct heals and thats all, well dont pick up a shammy when your looking for a healer. Our debuffs make our ward effective. I find I'm very active in groups and always casting something. I love the way we heal. I hope they make our slow just a bit stronger..but I guess at level 24 you get a better one..so I think thats just part of the progression of the class.</DIV>

Rayche
12-10-2004, 12:18 AM
<DIV> <P><SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ffffff>What Serp says is 100% correct, and you guys need to take a close look at that.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ffffff>Slows (Even 100% slows) don’t prevent the MAJORITY of damage which comes from special attacks. Haze doesn’t reduce the rate at which mobs do special attacks on you. So who cares if a mob isn’t hitting you for 90 damage quite as often, when he’s doing 250+ special attacks on you round after round.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#ffffff></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ffffff>Wards need to be AFTER mitigation/AC period.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><BR><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#ffffff>It’s broken that they don’t. MUCH of EQ2 has been us paying to Beta test this product… I wish it wasn’t so, but things like this should be fixed once brought out in public.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></DIV>

Zuul
12-10-2004, 12:35 AM
<DIV><FONT color=#ffff00><U>Now that is a valid complaint!!!</U></FONT> I read somewhere ( cant remember where atm) that Wards were intended to protect for more dmg then a RH or HoT heals for the same duration because of the fact that the Ward works before armor mitigation.... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Ward not stopping special attacks is a problem that needs fixing. The same is true if slow doesn't effect specials either. I have no problem with Ward working before damage mitigation as long as they scale the dmg protection accordingly. It would be nice if we got a response from the Dev team on whether the forementioned statements were intended or are bugged. And if bugged is there a patch in the works?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Nnath
12-10-2004, 12:45 AM
<DIV>Are wards less useful and efficient than reactive heals or HoTs in most situations, I think so.  Does it ever make me feel less useful to a group than a cleric or druid class, not at all.  In my experience, Mystics are highly desireable to groups.  To me that means we must have something to offer in addition to our less-than-perfect wards and that when considered as a CLASS with more than one spell or type of heal, we do pretty well when compared to other healers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Should wards be every bit as efficient on high AC tanks that HoTs and Reactives are?  I'm not sure they should be.  There are pros and cons to each of the unique healing types of spells, wards included.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Sens
12-10-2004, 01:57 AM
<DIV>The wards are working fine when combined with our debuffs (haze and delusion). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One tank I hunt with regularly is actually a bit too vocal in his stating that his preference is to have a mystic over a templar because he feels the wards do a better job protecting him. It's really the debuffs combined with the wards, but the debuffs aren't as obvious to him as the ward is.</DIV>

disru
12-10-2004, 03:50 AM
Thanks for all the responses guys. Remember though, I'm just asking if wards, independent of any other spells, are underpowered compared to the other two priests specialized forms of healing. The devs have stated that all priest classes are intended to be able to play a main healer role at a very close level to eachother. I'm currently a lvl 25 Mystic which is why I used the mid-20's example. I do still like playing my Mystic, I don't plan on quitting it. What I am saying is that each priest class gets its own special form of healing, and that the shaman's form seems to be lacking compaired to the others. Debuffs are not relative in this discussion in my opinion because all the priests get their own form of those too. (example: yes shaman get slow to help lessen damage but clerics get the physical damage mitigation buff which also lessens damage).It seems like all of those that do share my opinion also share my suggested solution of ward after damage is mitigated or increased ward compacity.

Mystiq
12-10-2004, 07:45 AM
<DIV>There are a few areas of concern that need to be addressed with Mystics at this time.</DIV> <DIV>I can confirm with certainty that wards soak up unmitigated damage. My ward at my level (41) may soak up over 900 points of damage, but it's not keeping up with the high hits that mobs put out at these levels. This is a problem, and if ward are to stay the way they are more or less ( as in, blocking damage), then they should be adjusted per the castee's AC.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Slow DOES help and IS NOT useless at my level. Combined with the str/sta debuff line it is a very useful tool that should not be overlooked. I do not know the percentage of slow that is applied to the mobs, but my tank has always told me that he can tell when a mob is slowed/debuffed or not. One thing I am unsure about is whether the Delusion/Fallacy line decreases the damage of special attacks, as I am unsure if specials are governed at all by strength.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem with slow has been mentioned in this thread a bit already. Slow does not decrease the frequency of special attacks, which is what does the most damage. It only slows the attack speed/frequency of normal hits. If slow is to be most effective, then an increase in reuse timers for specials needs to be implemented (similar to City of Heroes and other games where you use only specials and there is no auto attack). This kind of change should have been implemented at the same time that mobs received the same specials that player classes get.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My biggest concern right now though, is the two healer group configuration and how the 3 healer sub classes work together. I team with a Templar a lot, and this is not something that is going to change any time soon. Not sure if the rest of you frequent a two healer group, but when you fight what we fight, it's a no brainer. A Templar and a Mystic are not a good combination for a two healer group. However, a Warden/Mystic or Warden/Templar combination is pretty good. Obviously each healer wants to use his/her most effective and efficient heal type on the tank, but this is hard when the Mystic basically nulls the effectiveness of the Bestowal line with wards. I believe that the bestowal line has a longer base duration than the ward line, so if a ward and RH were cast at the same time on a tank, the RH would still be there when the ward falls off more than likely. This still doesn't help the fact that wards block RH's from working if both are cast on the tank. I don't want to have to work out some elaborate "heal plan" with Templars so we both don't waste power.</DIV> <DIV>I think perhaps more changes to the wards are in order. I hope the devs are listening.</DIV>

Somanta
12-10-2004, 12:59 PM
<DIV>Im lvl 28 Mystic and can keep a group alive with ease in RoV fighting against lvl 32+ mobs. After first ward absorbs the special hit and my slow/debuffs are landed, I can keep alive the tank just with wards (Adept1) and maybe some occasional heal. Sometimes my wards lasts full duration and sometimes 2-3 seconds when the mob executes another special.</DIV>

Quilli
12-10-2004, 03:49 PM
<DIV>Eloora if Reactive would heal our ward would that solve the 2 healer problem?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So if you still have ward up and get hit reactive trigers and heals back some portion of the ward.  Same with HOT</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thoughts?</DIV>

Sens
12-10-2004, 08:11 PM
<DIV>Quilliam, that's a very interesting suggestion for how to solve the problems with priest compatability.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My only concern is that it might be too effective and would make it hard to balance group dynamics for 1 or 2 healer groups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My 2 coppers is that perhaps the amount of protection just needs to scale a bit more at the higher level content end. My wards are very effective now (level 24) and when working in two priest groups we don't expect to both be completely effective. I'm effective on one tank by myself, having a second priest on the same tank leaves them only in backup mode until the tanks health starts to fall. Then if the fight is continuing I can continue and the templar can add their reactive heals and we can maintain the tank where I alone was having trouble. This allows me to not go into chain cast mode.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's all in the strategy applied... That's the great thing about EQ2. I'm so much more involved in tactics than I've ever been in any other MMORPG. Usually priests/clerics/healers just punch a button when a health bar goes down and their job is done, but not in EQ2! :smileyhappy:</DIV>

Spaz
12-11-2004, 12:05 AM
<DIV>Just so you know. People complain in the Templar forum of exactly the opposite. That templars are the [Removed for Content] and that Mystics are too powerful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I personally don't believe it to be true. It all depends on skill. I as a templar have never had any trouble keeping up with healing as long as I make use of all of my resources.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Having not played a Mystic I can't say what the correct strategy for keeping up with healing for you guys is, but I am sure it exists.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The true answer for any group that wants to take down orange/red ^^ mobs is to have two healers of different types. Since there are no issues with stacking of heals between the different sub-classes having two of the heal buff up on the MT gives ample time to reset things when they go down. You just have to learn to have all the heal spells you need lined up in your hot bars and hit them again just as they go down. I know that personally I am counting the number of times the heal proc goes off on my MT and start casting the next heal so it lands just as the previous one goes down.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>None of the EQ2 healing classes can use the old EQ1 strategy of throw the big heal when the tank is at X% of health.</DIV>

FelixDomesticus
12-11-2004, 12:58 AM
Some mobs (not even nameds) can hit my ward down in one combat round. It sort of sucks that when combat ends I am oom and cleric still has 35-50% of power left. And that assumes that we have same amount of power to begin with.Wards should absolutely take damage AFTER mitigation. That would put as to same position with other priest classes.

Ender
12-11-2004, 02:32 AM
First off. . . LOL!I have a 35 templar, 29 mystic, 31 warden.I can heal well with all of them. I prefer the templar only cuz it looks cool in armor. Other than that, I've had no real problems with any of them. Having to use lvl 12 spells when you're in your 30's is annoying tho...In short, play what you want, don't believe the hype. If you don't like what you're playing, then you can always reroll.

disru
12-11-2004, 02:47 AM
<blockquote><hr>EnderMX wrote:First off. . . LOL!I have a 35 templar, 29 mystic, 31 warden.I can heal well with all of them. I prefer the templar only cuz it looks cool in armor. Other than that, I've had no real problems with any of them. Having to use lvl 12 spells when you're in your 30's is annoying tho...In short, play what you want, don't believe the hype. If you don't like what you're playing, then you can always reroll.<hr></blockquote>This thread isn't about hating our class, I myself am enjoying a mystic/shaman very much. It is about an analysis of wards in comparison to the other priest's specialized form of healing. If the majority opinion is that wards are fine, then great. If most feel that they need work, which appears to be the case, hopefully this thread will draw some attention.

Ender
12-11-2004, 02:52 AM
thats true. . . but since i have all 3 healer classes i dont have much to worry about =)

Fashion_dealer
12-11-2004, 02:52 AM
<DIV>The only thing I can think of is that they figure that cause we get slow we don't need to heal as much?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our heals + slow =same healing capacity of other priests</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With slow I can heal as effectively, it seems, as other classes. So you can't think of wards idependently, they combine automatically with our other spells.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Arzanes</DIV><p>Message Edited by Fashion_dealer on <span class=date_text>12-10-2004</span> <span class=time_text>01:55 PM</span>

disru
12-11-2004, 03:39 AM
<blockquote><hr>Fashion_dealer wrote:<DIV>The only thing I can think of is that they figure that cause we get slow we don't need to heal as much?</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Our heals + slow =same healing capacity of other priests</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>With slow I can heal as effectively, it seems, as other classes. So you can't think of wards idependently, they combine automatically with our other spells.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Arzanes</DIV><p>Message Edited by Fashion_dealer on <span class=date_text>12-10-2004</span> <span class=time_text>01:55 PM</span><hr></blockquote>pasted from one of my previous replies:Debuffs are not relative in this discussion in my opinion because all the priests get their own form of those too. (example: yes shaman get slow to help lessen damage but clerics get the physical damage mitigation buff which also lessens damage).

cas
12-11-2004, 03:43 AM
<DIV>Hey all,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do not feel that our Wards are underpowered at all..  Granted they are pretty much useless with out our other spells to back them up..  Once you throw slow and delusion on all the mobs the ward lasts 3 times as long..  I always felt they were a little to powerful..  I am lvl 24 I usually only fight group ^^ orange or higher..  I always grp with a second healer any even another Mystic I have had great success with them all..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Plus if you think about it if you are un happy with our Ward find a Monk to be MT  our wards rock with them..  Let's see a Templar keep a monk healed they got a smaller amount of AC but they dodge more....  So they take more damage than there reactive heal almost every hit dont you think they would be chain casting them..  also for a druid a paladan type class would be good they got self wards and heals to help you out...  It just finding the right mix..  I have had all 6 tanks in groups before and I have found out its easier for us shamans to heal a Brawler type class just for there dodge....  But I have yet to have any serious problems at all.. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>24th Mystic 20th Provisioner</DIV>

Banditman
12-11-2004, 04:10 AM
<DIV>That may be, but the question then is "Are Cleric and Druid special heals worthless without an additional spell?"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Nnath
12-11-2004, 07:03 AM
<DIV>I would say yes, they are useless without additional spells.  Clerics and druids do not keep tanks alive with only reactives and regens against anything even close to white group^^.  With special attacks that do way more damage per round than either of those heal, combined with regular hard hits, both need to always mix in regular heals with the special heals.  Mystics wards are actually less worthless, using your logic, as they can, if chain cast, be nearly the only spelll we need.  Mix in two debuffs (haze+str/sta) and we can almost exclusively cast wards.  That is not the case with reactives or regens; they always require a mix of special and regular heals (against ^^ stuff anyway).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would not argue that we are more efficient healers then either, particularly templars, but I do think we compare nicely when debuffs, wards, and heals are mixed together. True efficieny numbers could not be even speculated until, as others have pointed out, actually log parsing is completed.  The very basic example in the original post is not at all a typical fight for a group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And while wards may not be as efficient in most tank situations, they do come in handy when a mage/scout/monk starts getting hit.  A situation where regens or reactives are virtually useless becasue they do not come close to coving the damage inflicted.</DIV>

FelixDomesticus
12-11-2004, 12:26 PM
<blockquote><hr>Fashion_dealer wrote:<DIV>The only thing I can think of is that they figure that cause we get slow we don't need to heal as much?</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Our heals + slow =same healing capacity of other priests</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>With slow I can heal as effectively, it seems, as other classes. So you can't think of wards idependently, they combine automatically with our other spells.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Arzanes</DIV><p>Message Edited by Fashion_dealer on <span class=date_text>12-10-2004</span> <span class=time_text>01:55 PM</span><hr></blockquote>Do not start that again. I absolutely hated how SOE handled shamans in Eq1 due to fact that that they had slow. They nerfed shaman to useless, nerfed even slow and then had enough and I quit Eq1. I do not want to see that happening again in Eq2!! I see only minuscule differences between "slowed" and unslowed mobs, so I usually do not even use slows because benefits are so small. I do not want that they AGAIN calculate all heals based on slowed mobs and then use slows against shamans when healing should be adjusted to new situations.

Fae
12-11-2004, 01:30 PM
<DIV>Seeing as I'm only level 10, and eagerly awaiting my first ward, I do still have concerns. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For nearly two days I didn't pick my class becaus eof this very issue. I love shamans, and their spells more then the other preists. Cleric wasn't a consideration, since there are too many of them about anyhow. Druid was the other class I was deciding between, since they have Heal over times -- my favorite type. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Druids and Shamans are very near in characteristics. I chose shaman over druid for the small differences: bear form, more buffs, slow etc. The reason I didn't jump on board was because I <EM>knew</EM> there would be a problem with wards, and had been talking to many different higher level people about it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hope they make wards absorb after mitigation -- I may find myself re-rolling a druid if they do not.</DIV>

Epon
12-11-2004, 08:19 PM
<DIV>Coming from the standpoint of another healer (Warden) I would say that wards can be pretty useless when Im teamed with a Mystic. They might help when the mage is getting hit on. When usedon the main tank they do just about nothing since I keep them pretty much at full health with or without one. The wards last a very limited time, maybe 3 hits. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will be testing the usefulness of wards soon, as I made a Kerran Shaman as of late to group with my friends while they catch up to my Warden. Im debating my choice in a shaman over a cleric now, because I think that the AC/HP buffs of a Templar would far outweigh the power of a ward. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>These are just from my view points while teamed with one, not while healing in a group with just a mystic. </DIV>

Amra
12-11-2004, 09:00 PM
<DIV>from what i heard, heavy armor tanks don't reduce dmg of special attacks, and if ppl r saying slow is useless because most of the dmg comes from special attacks, then won't that make wards just as good as the other 2 heals? maybe even better?</DIV>

Mystiq
12-12-2004, 01:22 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eponyx wrote:<BR> <DIV>Coming from the standpoint of another healer (Warden) I would say that wards can be pretty useless when Im teamed with a Mystic. They might help when the mage is getting hit on. When usedon the main tank they do just about nothing since I keep them pretty much at full health with or without one. The wards last a very limited time, maybe 3 hits. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will be testing the usefulness of wards soon, as I made a Kerran Shaman as of late to group with my friends while they catch up to my Warden. Im debating my choice in a shaman over a cleric now, because I think that the AC/HP buffs of a Templar would far outweigh the power of a ward. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>These are just from my view points while teamed with one, not while healing in a group with just a mystic. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Even if you feel that wards are useless when combined with your healing, keep testing. Realize that the druid/shaman combination is a very effective 2 healer combo (regenerating health while being warded is awesome) and should be taken advantage of by finding harder enemies to kill. Also realize that these harder enemies will barrage and special attack your tank faster than you can keep him regen'd, and using direct heals too much is a major power drain. Not sure what level you are but trust me, as you go up, this is all true. Having the tank warded on a pull and off and on during the fight does make a difference. I am not now, nor will I ever discount the usefulness of another healer's spells and healing ability. I understand how they work and respect their role. Shamans are specialized in damage mitigation and prevention, period. This may account for why some people have trouble determining their effectiveness. It is when our debuffing spells do not land or are not powerful enough, that the rest of our tools start to diminish in their returns.

Ouba
12-12-2004, 04:50 AM
<DIV>Level 30 defiler here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On inc i land on the mob: fuliginous sphere(24 secs), degeneration(70 secs), revulsion (70 secs), comtamination (24 secs). I sustain both dots (sphere and contamination). The effect of all those dots and debuffs are important; they lower the total power of the mob or and hp, slow the mob, mob hits for alot less and do considerable dmg with 2 dots. I also do Vile imprecation (100 dmg nuke with massive debuff to cold fire disease poison resists, last 24 secs)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Warding is out of the question since i ALWAYS team with a caster and we do ancient crucible non stop (+12% total power regen HO) and that ward often end up breaking the HO. Since that HO uses a direct heal i dont need to use wards anyway. And i also feels that wards have been utterly useless ever since i got to level 20. Healing ritual adept3 has been my main form of healing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Doing this HO non stop (and yes defilers are the best priest to open up this one with vile or our fast casting dots) and maintaining the dots/debuffs i often end up almost not healing except for the heal i have to do during the HO and then i finish the fight almost at full power because of this HO. Also the mobs is so severely debuffed that it deals like 50% of its normal dammage if not more (some mobs have innate huge strenght values and others dont). Also you have to note that the slow component of fuliginous and degeneration seems to stack (one is a dot and other is a pure debuff)...so pay attention to this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So in short, defilers are very good healers when we play with HO and are by far the best damage dealers and mitigators but this doesnt invole the use of our useless wards.</DIV> <DIV>Oubaro</DIV> <DIV>level 30 defiler</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Shef
12-12-2004, 06:31 AM
<DIV>I agree with most of what has been said here about wards being less effective than the specialized healing abilities of the other two healing classes.  I play a Templar and a Shaman (working on Mystic) and I've been pretty unimpressed with wards thus far.  Granted, I don't even have Adept 1 versions (much less Adept 3), but when I team with a Cleric I feel almost unnecessary.  The Cleric can almost always keep reactive up while nuking and maintain his healing pretty well.  I often find myself chain-casting ward because of how quickly it runs out (app3 atm) due to the unmitigated damage used to calculate the attack damage taken off the ward.  This leads to both my power pool and the Cleric's being low at the end of the fight, where I have been mostly chain-casting ward while he has been able to chain-nuke and keep Bestowal up for greater heal amount per power cost than ward.  Doesn't seem right.  I may be contributing to keeping the team alive, but to a lesser extent than other healer types.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dunno.  When my Cleric was the level my Shaman is currently, I felt like a far more effective healer.  Perhaps I just play a Cleric better than a Shaman.  Perhaps I'm more confident on my Shaman since I'm no longer learning basic game mechanics (like I was on my Templar) and as such I'm generally fighting harder groups of mobs.  *shrug*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hear wards become significantly more powerful at higher levels, but again, they taper off in effectiveness due to the lack of calculating armor mitigation.  Not to change the subject, but could higher level Mystics/etc comment on the rest of our spell toolset making up for the lack of ward-"healing" described in this thread?  The reason I ask is, if our wards are less effective than a Templar's reactive heals but our single-target and team heals are enough to make up for that, then there really isn't a huge issue for the class as a whole (just for lower-level Shamans who don't have the full toolset yet).  I see Templars in-game (not me) complaining that Shamans have great direct and team heals (in some cases healing for more than those of a Templar), so it's very interesting to me to see the flip-side discussions.</DIV>

Epon
12-12-2004, 07:55 AM
<DIV>Eloora, Im not saying that the wards arent good, or that Mystics arent good. I was just simply saying that sometimes a second healer isnt needed. Mystics bring alot to the table in terms of grouping. Mystics, in my opinion, are a secondary fallback healer. They are good healers though, all three are good healers. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They are no where near balanced. The whole "Slow makes up for ward" excuse doesnt make up for it. I can heal without debuffing on my Warden, a mystic should be able to do the same. The classes are unbalanced, and thats obvious. Some things need to be tweaked, other things need to be really tweaked. But in the end, Id rather have a healer than no healer in my group.</DIV>

k
12-12-2004, 09:55 AM
<DIV>Do devs read this forum or are we just wasting our time? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You are right..the use debuffs and slows to offset the affects is an irrelevant argument when wardens and templars can keep up with single spell. Its just messy and makes mystics less efficient healers. Where is the balance there?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It would be nice to at least have a response from SOE.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Fae
12-12-2004, 12:12 PM
<DIV>I'd love to believe I dind't have to use slow -- or <EM>any </EM>other debuff for that matter -- since they can easily be resisted. Puts a huge hamper on plans of warding.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We shouldn't have to rely on multiple <EM>offensive </EM>spells to heal.</DIV>

Merrygr
12-12-2004, 02:13 PM
<DIV>I looked around on the other class boards, and it is funny to see that the clerics have class envy towards us and we to them <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seems the druids are not complaining nearly as much. This leads me to believe that they are either better healers or that they have a slightly different mindset. It could also bee that pickup groups don't trust druids to be main healers, so you will see fewer of them in that role.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I figure that the only true way of telling if one class is inferior as a healer is to parse them all. Until that is done we have nothing to base our complaints on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have not had the luxury of grouping with other healers. I know that I can keep a group up against at least yellow^^ mobs. At times it is touch and go, and at times we wipe. I have even kept a group up against a white (blue to rest of group) groupx2^^^ mobs as the single healer. Depending on what we are fighting it is either me or MT that is the limiting factor when it comes to power between fights. I do remember from beta that I felt that the clerics always had more power left after a fight. I have no clue if this was actually the case or if it just felt that way.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are things that makes me feel underpowered. When I cast a ward and it and a big chunk of the MTs hp is eaten by one special attack from the mob. Then I usually have to go into chain casting mode for a bit. Every time that happens I feel like I'm inferior and that my heals suck.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not saying we are better or worse healers than clerics or druids. I'm saying that as long as we can't compare true numbers it is a moot point.</DIV>

Clericlo
12-12-2004, 02:58 PM
<DIV>Alright, I'm a level 18 cleric, and a resident forum-surfer.  All of you are overlooking one HUGE THING! you're comparing your ward healing with a TANK, a GUARDIAN or some such warrior.  Shamen don't work best with TANKS- you are the BEST HEALERS FOR MONKS- with their dodging, your slow, and your wards, they NEVER DIE!  And what's all this complaining I hear about mitigation- you are giving your target 400+ hps, thats A LOT, with my reactive heals, my target can DIE WHILE I STILL HAVE A REACTIVE ON EM!  Your tank will never die if you keep spells up!  </DIV> <DIV>Clerics- best healers for Guardians</DIV> <DIV>Shamen- best healers for monks</DIV> <DIV>Druids- good for either, an omni-class</DIV> <DIV>I personally think that the best combination is a cleric/shaman.  All the stacking buffs and debuffs.  Shaman ward, cleric RH, then don't recast the ward until after the RH is gone, and recast the RH then too- boom, tank never gets below 3 bulbs of health, both healers heal less than half as much due to the complimentary buffs/debuffs, healers never draw aggro due to 2 healers, group never dies!  If they change anything, and i mean anything to benefit shamen, i'm gonna have to reroll, because i love the game, but i love being the best, and shamen would hands down be the best with any tweaking.</DIV> <DIV>If you are still unsure- read the cleric/templar forums- they are more upset then all y'all are.</DIV> <DIV>You got a sweet class, learn to play it right instead of trying to be the main healer when a guardian is main tank- it'll be HARD (but fun) :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV>~Medico of Toxxulia</DIV>

Merrygr
12-12-2004, 04:41 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Clericlord wrote:<BR> <DIV>Alright, I'm a level 18 cleric, and a resident forum-surfer.  All of you are overlooking one HUGE THING! you're comparing your ward healing with a TANK, a GUARDIAN or some such warrior.  Shamen don't work best with TANKS- you are the BEST HEALERS FOR MONKS- with their dodging, your slow, and your wards, they NEVER DIE!  And what's all this complaining I hear about mitigation- you are giving your target 400+ hps, thats A LOT, with my reactive heals, my target can DIE WHILE I STILL HAVE A REACTIVE ON EM!  Your tank will never die if you keep spells up!  </DIV> <DIV>Clerics- best healers for Guardians</DIV> <DIV>Shamen- best healers for monks</DIV> <DIV>Druids- good for either, an omni-class</DIV> <DIV>I personally think that the best combination is a cleric/shaman.  All the stacking buffs and debuffs.  Shaman ward, cleric RH, then don't recast the ward until after the RH is gone, and recast the RH then too- boom, tank never gets below 3 bulbs of health, both healers heal less than half as much due to the complimentary buffs/debuffs, healers never draw aggro due to 2 healers, group never dies!  If they change anything, and i mean anything to benefit shamen, i'm gonna have to reroll, because i love the game, but i love being the best, and shamen would hands down be the best with any tweaking.</DIV> <DIV>If you are still unsure- read the cleric/templar forums- they are more upset then all y'all are.</DIV> <DIV>You got a sweet class, learn to play it right instead of trying to be the main healer when a guardian is main tank- it'll be HARD (but fun) :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV>~Medico of Toxxulia</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I have a problem with the one healer fits one tank thinking. First I don't think the difference is all that big (never tested, so no idea really). Second if it is it is a really stupid decision on SOEs side. The groups should look for a tank or healer. Not look for a monk if they hava a shaman or a cleric if they have a guardian.</P> <P>As for the clerics being more upset, I think it is just because a) there are more of them and b) they are (in EQ1) used to being the best.</P> <P>But I do think that all suffer from class envy without really knowing what they are talking about.<BR></P>

Epon
12-12-2004, 07:47 PM
<DIV>Clericlord, Im totally against that mindset. A healer is a healer is a healer. They shouldnt have a specialized tank that they can heal, a healer should be able to heal who he or she chooses equally to any other healer. You shouldnt have to group with a specific class to get your own class to work properly. Its totally rediculous that you would think that you had to. My main, a Warden, doesnt have this problem, and I beleive that a Templar's healing is much more powerful than my own. But should that stop us from being able to keep people alive, no! My Warden can keep anyone alive, save the stupid. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your argument is not a vaild solution to the problem.</DIV>

se
12-12-2004, 08:15 PM
I love my mystic. I can be a primary healer and keep a tank alive, just not as efficiently as a cleric or druid.Saying that we are better healers on monks is not a true statement. If you take the ac mitigation out of the equation then we are equal to clerics and druids. So if you were to assume that a monk had zero ac mitigation (which is obviously not true) then we'd only be equal at healing when the tank was a monk and less efficient with any other tank.We are closer to being as efficient as another healer when healing a monk because the monk relies less on ac mitigation but we are still not equally efficient. The gap grows when the tank is not a monk and it seems to grow even more as we level.

Saraphi
12-13-2004, 12:31 AM
<DIV>My worry is that if two healers are required to do encounters, then there wont be that many groups around at later levels. It was hard enough finding one healer in EQ, nevermind two. I know they increased the power of heals post 20, and have yet to see this, but I dont see any change in the mindset on these boards. </DIV>

Crados
12-13-2004, 06:29 AM
<DIV>I'd just like to chime in as Defiler and in the same boat as you guys.  Its all there plain as day that wards become near useless at the higher levels. Not sure if mystics get a supposed upgrade ward at lvl 26 like Defilers do but that one is no better than our first one so not helping either.  It almost seems like a bug not to take AC into effect.  I would say if it did take AC into effect that I'd be okay with a slightly longer recast time or mana cost even. Just make the thing useful post lvl 25 or so</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cradossk</DIV> <DIV>Lvl 28 Iksar Defiler</DIV> <DIV>Unrest</DIV>

Parax
12-13-2004, 07:35 PM
Ok, I noticed that most groups are fighting yellow or orange con group targets. Since it clearly says that yellow con might defeat your group should tell you something, and orange tells you that well, it will wipe the floor with you basically. So, how can we expect our wards and heals to be effective if we are risking the chance by fighting higher level group targets than recommended. Every time our group has stuck with even con, blue or sometimes one level higher yellow, there has not been a big issue with my adept(1) ward being used at all. In fact, it is highly effective for 5 -7 good solid hits before having to recast. I think staying within the con range groups are supposed to tackle is what wards were ment for. Not 2 levels higher yellow or orange or red con. Something to think about.

Merrygr
12-13-2004, 07:55 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Paraxis wrote:<BR>Ok, I noticed that most groups are fighting yellow or orange con group targets. Since it clearly says that yellow con might defeat your group should tell you something, and orange tells you that well, it will wipe the floor with you basically. So, how can we expect our wards and heals to be effective if we are risking the chance by fighting higher level group targets than recommended. Every time our group has stuck with even con, blue or sometimes one level higher yellow, there has not been a big issue with my adept(1) ward being used at all. In fact, it is highly effective for 5 -7 good solid hits before having to recast. I think staying within the con range groups are supposed to tackle is what wards were ment for. Not 2 levels higher yellow or orange or red con. Something to think about.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Funny thing about that. </DIV> <DIV>I have had white con mobs beat the crap out of our group and I have had the same group take out yellow con mobs without braeking a sweat. These were even melee mobs in both cases. Casters are always something I have a bit of a problem keeping up with as they (more or less) negate my ward. If you do a dungeon crawl you are also bound to face a range of mobs from blue to yellow. Only way to guarantee a fight against the same cons is to sit at one outdoor spot and pull. Something that SOE said we shouldn't do. A good example was that the other day we dit the Cove in TS. Mobs in there ranged from blue to yellow. So a group has to be able to fight that range of mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

bou
12-13-2004, 07:58 PM
<blockquote><hr>Paraxis wrote:Ok, I noticed that most groups are fighting yellow or orange con group targets. Since it clearly says that yellow con might defeat your group should tell you something, and orange tells you that well, it will wipe the floor with you basically. So, how can we expect our wards and heals to be effective if we are risking the chance by fighting higher level group targets than recommended. Every time our group has stuck with even con, blue or sometimes one level higher yellow, there has not been a big issue with my adept(1) ward being used at all. In fact, it is highly effective for 5 -7 good solid hits before having to recast. I think staying within the con range groups are supposed to tackle is what wards were ment for. Not 2 levels higher yellow or orange or red con. Something to think about.<hr></blockquote>The comparison was between the classes though, not against different mobs. If one class holds very well against a mob and another dies against the same mob then there is a difference. Regardless of the level of the mob, the classes should perform the same if that is the devs intentions.What would be really interesting to see is a mystic/guard vs mystic/monk and cleric/guard vs cleric/monk and then all those against eachother comparision.Yes, I like numbers and knowing all the facts <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />If there is an advantage with using mystic/monk and cleric/guard I think thats just fine, I just like to know about it so I can adapt accordingly.

Krissi_Katfig
12-13-2004, 09:25 PM
I am ok with the concept that shsmans healing works better with monks / bruisers and I think it to be a true statement. Brawlers do not get hit as often as Warriors and Crusaders and therefore ward lasts longer on them. Brawlers often get overlooked as a tank but I oftenlook them up for my groups, with good results.

Fae
12-13-2004, 09:32 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Krissi_Katfight wrote:<BR>I am ok with the concept that shsmans healing works better with monks / bruisers and I think it to be a true statement. Brawlers do not get hit as often as Warriors and Crusaders and therefore ward lasts longer on them. Brawlers often get overlooked as a tank but I oftenlook them up for my groups, with good results.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> I'm not.

Ender
12-13-2004, 09:54 PM
I have a lvl 35 templar and a lvl 29 mystic and all i have to say is:wards > reactive.same spell levels, all adept 3.

Mystiq
12-13-2004, 11:20 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Faeye wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Krissi_Katfight wrote:<BR>I am ok with the concept that shsmans healing works better with monks / bruisers and I think it to be a true statement. Brawlers do not get hit as often as Warriors and Crusaders and therefore ward lasts longer on them. Brawlers often get overlooked as a tank but I oftenlook them up for my groups, with good results.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> I'm not.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Yeah I'm not either. I played a Templar in beta but wanted to play a Mystic at release. I have lots more fun with Mystic, but my fiance plays a Guardian. I don't want to feel like I'm better suited to a Monk or any particular tank, that's BS. I don't want to feel like I should take a backseat "support" role when grouped with a templar as a second healer due to ward and RH's not working together and because templars are "better suited for high AC tanks". People should play what they like and play what they play well, not what the game makes you fit into.

disru
12-13-2004, 11:30 PM
Its good to see that even the other priest classes are chiming in with their opinions. I would post an invitation to share their opinion on this thread on their boards but then I might get a reply like I did on the link I put on the shaman board.Which went something like this:----------------------------------------------You don't cross post noob. This is shaman forum not Ward...-----------------------------------------------All I can assume is that he has no idea that *Ward* is our way of healing and he thought I was talking about Wardens?/shrug

Shef
12-14-2004, 01:51 AM
<DIV>Many of us followed that very link to this thread.  I, for one, appreciated the heads up in the Shaman forum. =)</DIV>

Nata
12-14-2004, 04:21 AM
<DIV>A little off topic, but since i see a couple Clerics poping in I remembered a question I had regarding dual healing with them. Since their heal works when the target is hit, does that mean if I ward player X that the Cleric heal no longer works since the ward is being hit? </DIV>

disru
12-14-2004, 04:44 AM
<blockquote><hr>Nataas wrote:<DIV>A little off topic, but since i see a couple Clerics poping in I remembered a question I had regarding dual healing with them. Since their heal works when the target is hit, does that mean if I ward player X that the Cleric heal no longer works since the ward is being hit? </DIV><hr></blockquote>That is correct Nataas.Reactive heals will not fire until the ward is beaten off or has expired.

ReubinLe
12-14-2004, 06:50 AM
<DIV>I believe that every healer pairs up with a specific tank class very well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For mystics(and defilers), I believe we pair up best with a Brawler type tank. Their main form of 'damage mitigation' is avoiding their attacks, thus, our wards work best with them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For templars/inquisitors, their best paired tank is a guardian/berserker, because of the high amount of AC, and their reactive heals heal after their AC mitigation, so it seems like a good pair.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For wardens/furies, their best paired tank is a crusader type. Since the crusader can ward themselves for some damage, the HOTs of the druids have more time to work their magic.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, of course, any tank can be paired with any healer, but I think the above are the BEST pairs, in my opinion. Also, especially as a mystic, I've noticed that having two tanks in the group is best because of their abilities to 'shield' others from attacks. One tank acts as the main meat sheild, while the other acts as the guard to the meat shield. I don't know of all of the abilities, but I do know that a guardian gets Allay and Stand Firm, for example. When they work, the main tank does not get any damage dealt to them, nor does the person guarding them. Being an almost lvl 26 mystic, where the wards will heal any leftover amounts, this is very crucial and helpful when keeping my group healed.</DIV>

ReubinLe
12-14-2004, 07:01 AM
<DIV>Also, I just noticed some people saying they don't like the mindset of what I just said. Something to note:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have grouped with guardians, monks, and paladins as a level 25 mystic. Overall, I haven't seen much difference with grouping with any of them and having each one be a different main tank. When I'm grouped with guardians/paladins, I find myself warding a little less, and healing a bit more. When with a monk, I find myself keeping wards on the monk at all times.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The reason for this is that paladins and guardians have more AC, and since my wards don't take into effect AC, I use them moderately, and heal moreso than if I was to have a monk be a main tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, what I said above was for each priests 'special' heals. A ward is best paired with a brawler, a HoT is best paired with a crusader, and a reactive is best paired with a warrior, but that doesn't mean that I can't group with another tank type and be effective. I just have to change my healing style for each different type of tank.</DIV>

kenji
12-14-2004, 09:29 AM
<DIV>i am a 25 Mystic</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ward is useful, but only before the fight start, why? cast time way too long compare to Ritual Healing(sp?) in combat, even after Slow / Str/Sta debuffs hit in, i wont cast Ward in battle. it's because Ward only eat 1 special attack at my lvl, but if the tank is high AC 1...Ritual Healing can heal up to 2 or 3 special attack on normal blue to white^^ mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Slow wont delay the special attack, which is useless because mob's normal attack is 1/4~1/6 of specials, expecially with a Good Tank, u can ignore the Slow ability unless u r fighting yellow~red^^....right? =)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>imo, Wards need a upgrade, at least give it a *base* AC of the spell, at lvl 50, if u got a 0 AC ward, it's a useless ***HEAL*** which cant absorb anything....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

SSmi
12-14-2004, 01:59 PM
My general strategy when I'm playing a non-pickup group is to ward the tank before the pull, then I slow and debuff the mob, DoT, put up another ward, and then leave it be. From here on I just use regular heals to keep the tank alive, debuffing/slowing as needed, and the occasional DoT saving my Ward for one thing, and I think this may be overlooked:Ward is the best way to keep casters and rogues alive. Since their AC is low anyways, the effects of mitigation are felt less, this means that my ward is a much more effective heal on casters and rogues than the clerics reactive or the druids. Now, in a good group you would ideally never have to keep a caster or rogue alive, but we all know there are times when the mob just goes for the caster, and a chain-cast ward is, in my opinion, one of the best ways to ensure that you don't lose group members when the high DPS classes draw aggro.Just another thought to throw into the mix. You may not LIKE it, but as far as I can tell its a fact of EQ2 life.<p>Message Edited by SSmith on <span class=date_text>12-14-2004</span> <span class=time_text>01:01 AM</span>

EgilRon
12-14-2004, 09:21 PM
<DIV>Lvl 27 Defiler here, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is a rather large difference when going from a Guardian to a Monk/bruiser.  It is why many Monks will actually refuse to tank, as with a Cleric, they suck.  With a Shaman, they rock.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As an example, trying to kill the AQ6 named NPC, first go was with Guardian as the MT.  We lost horribly, wasn't particularly close.  So I try to get the Monk to tank, the group finally agrees, and we try again.  This time we win and I still have 40% power left at the end.  The inverse is true with a Cleric (their reactives simply can't keep the Monk alive).  Once you start using the instant heal, you are wasting power, as there efficiency is so much worse than  the "special heal".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, the healing amounts posted in this thread (way back on pg 1) are interesting.  I was always under the impression that wards were going to protect for more dmg due to the lack of AC mitigation with them.  But I guess that is no longer the case...</DIV><p>Message Edited by EgilRonin on <span class=date_text>12-14-2004</span> <span class=time_text>08:21 AM</span>

Saraphi
12-14-2004, 10:06 PM
<DIV>I agree the type of tank determines alot. Also, how well geared he is counts as well. Last night my boyfriend, who plays a monk, convinced a group to let him tank. We usually went with Gaurdians or crusaders as tanks before because of group pressure, but this time he built it so he had some sway. There was a templar there as well and we had no issues whatsoever with power, and keeping him alive. We hunted named ^^ yellows without a hitch, and got some nice drops. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The night before I had a crusader tank, same setup, me and the same templar. We could barely keep him alive vs. ^^ yellows, and they werent even named. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I personally think we need to start adjusting our additudes towards classes and how they work in this game. Last night was alot of fun, and I'm going to start actively recruiting monks to be tanks in the future.</DIV>

SilverNi
12-14-2004, 10:15 PM
<DIV>Koos, you are completely and utterly INCORRECT in stating that Templars have anything that even compares to slow. You sir, are fabricating information to serve your own devices. Reproach, a spell gained at level 38 for Templars, "Reduces armor class and arcane mitigations on an opponent." So please, do not spread around false information for your own means. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is the Templar perspective on the Shaman wards:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A Templar is extremely effective healing a tank when there is a single Double Up MOB. Our reactive heals can keep up with the Tank with relative ease. At level 37, my Intercession is healing about 300 damage a hit for 8 hits, and 140 damage a hit for 6 hits. That is, 440 damage prevented for a maximum of 6 hits and 300 for the next two. While I do not know the EXACT numbers on the Shaman wards relative to my level, I do know that they are equivalent. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The strength of the Shaman wards are in the weakness of the Templar Reactive Heals. Templars may be able to fight a high level single mob well, but when dealing with multiple mobs (i.e. groups of 3 or more), we have difficulty. Shaman wards do not. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Something else for you to consider about the Templar vs. Mystic debate; Templars have sub par nukes, sub par debuffs, sub par DOTs, but have better healing and buffing. If anything, Templars should get a spell which Koos fabricated to supplement Slow, but I am not going to whine about it and post false information to support my rant. </DIV>

Mystiq
12-14-2004, 10:55 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SilverNine wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The strength of the Shaman wards are in the weakness of the Templar Reactive Heals. Templars may be able to fight a high level single mob well, but when dealing with multiple mobs (i.e. groups of 3 or more), we have difficulty. Shaman wards do not. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I would actually argue the other side of this particular point, from a Mystic perspective. Having both played a Templar and grouped with them many a time, I have marvelled at the ability to sort of "let the adds heal the tank" with the use of reactive heals. Against a tough group of 3 or more mobs, wards soaking up the combined hits of a large group which may or may not include a harder hitting named will absolutely drop in seconds. Of course the reactive heal(s) will also expire quickly, but not before often times healing the tank back up anywhere from 15-40%. Wards can't do that, and therein lies the inefficiency of the shaman class - healing the tank back up if and when our preventitive measures (debuffs, slow and wards) fail or fall. Now of course chain casting any of the 3 priest subclasses' special heal lines is the most prudent way to keep his hp's up, but I digress.<BR></P>

Peri
12-15-2004, 12:11 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SilverNine wrote: <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The strength of the Shaman wards are in the weakness of the Templar Reactive Heals. Templars may be able to fight a high level single mob well, but when dealing with multiple mobs (i.e. groups of 3 or more), we have difficulty. Shaman wards do not. </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>yeah, that's about as incorrect as it gets, at least in the assertation of what is a shaman's strength...  multi mobs hitting a tank, all of it non mitigated coupled with high damage special attacks that debuffs don't slow or otherwise effect... completely chew up wards in no time.  Again - reactives, HoT's, direct heals.. those all have the benefit of AC to mitigate some of the damage being dealt.</DIV>

bou
12-15-2004, 04:45 AM
If reactive heals work how I think they do, the only benefit of a ward would be if you are low on health and gets hit for more damage than you can take. For instance:A tank with 200 hp left gets hit for 500 dmg. His armor will block 50% of the damage.With a fresh ward that takes 400 points of damage only 100 goes to the tank, and 50 only hurts him. With a reactive heal all 500 hits the tank, 250 is taken by the armor but he still dies since he only has 200 left and the reactive heal doesn't take place until after he gets hit.Like I said im not sure this is how reactive heals work since I have never used them, but if it is the ward has a slight advantage in this very rare occasion. Anyone that can confirm, would just be fun to know for a fact that this is how it works.

bou
12-15-2004, 04:48 AM
<blockquote><hr>SilverNine wrote:<DIV>The strength of the Shaman wards are in the weakness of the Templar Reactive Heals. Templars may be able to fight a high level single mob well, but when dealing with multiple mobs (i.e. groups of 3 or more), we have difficulty. Shaman wards do not. </DIV><hr></blockquote>Like the two other guys said, this is so wrong. A ward will go down three times faster if it gets hit by three times the damage, just like your heals will wear out faster. Not sure why you would think that wards would do better against groups of mobs than reactive heals would.

Krissi_Katfig
12-15-2004, 09:52 PM
When I said that I was ok with wards working better on monks than they do on guardians, I didn't mean that wards don't work on regular tanks. While I think that wards could use a bump, I still find them to be effective. Since acquiring it, I have noticed that Keening Haze definately seems to help. I would rather they work on fixing the stacking issue with cleric heals first. If wards stopped mitigated damage, it might be overpowered. What I would like is the ability to ward someone twice and have the first ward be converted to a heal when the second one hits.I am level 25 and I am often the only healer in the group. This still seems to work fine. I do hope that wards get improved slightly but its nothing to get that upset about.

Xran
12-15-2004, 11:35 PM
<b>So after reading all the things we talked about:</b>1. Wards are good heals but to a certain extent underpowered2. L20 onwards, especially L30-50, Wards' 0AC protection gets way weaker (unless Adept I or III is used)3. ^^ or Multiple mobs = Wards' rate of dropping is way too fast (compared to BoV where it heals more efficienty with multiple)Either way for something that uses quite a bunch of power, it is gone too quickly.<b>Improvements?</b>1. Heal at expiration (if there's still left against anything above L20 <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )Removed in beta due to overpowered?2. AC is counted into Ward (Some say too powerful, some say it is a good addition)3. Increase the capacity of hp the Ward protects (seems like very viable one)<p>Message Edited by Xrande on <span class=date_text>12-15-2004</span> <span class=time_text>01:38 PM</span>

Lalw
12-18-2004, 01:24 AM
<DIV>I think a possibly good compromise would be to use the mitigation of the Mystic's armor rather than the fighter's.  A nice benefit to this is that it will set up a nice little game where in which the mystic can work at increasing his or her armor protection to improve ward ability for everyone.  Anytime you can work at making your spells more effective will make you love your class all the more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Lal</DIV>

Leji
12-18-2004, 01:41 AM
<DIV>Heh, i just saw this thread, i'm glad to see that i wasn't imagining stuff.</DIV> <DIV>I'm level 31 and in the last levels Wards droped from my main form of healing to a more backup status. As the mitigation of the tanks increase as i level, i figure i will pretty much stop to use them by lvl 40.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would be interested to hear the resoning of the developpers on this matter if this really is intented.</DIV> <DIV>Currently, the Wards are ok if your target cannot mitigate well the incoming damage, but in the case of a well geared Guardian, Shadowknight or Paladin, they are nothing else than a silly joke and are seriously inneficient in comparaison to our plain regular direct heals (which on paper should be our backup heals, since their hp/power ratio is quite inferior to our wards).</DIV>

Ox
12-18-2004, 02:45 AM
<DIV><STRONG>Spectral Ward (Adpet III)</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>I have spectral ward at adpet III, and you thought there would be a great improvement....</DIV> <DIV><BR>Hunting in varsoon at lvl 27 proved me wrong. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mobs just ripped through my ward like it doesn't exist .. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would like to post some data on how effective ward at adpet3 really is , </DIV> <DIV>anyone be able to help in the bb server ? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and yes, 100% agree with your improvement suggestions . </DIV>

Albori
12-18-2004, 08:48 AM
Just thought i'd comment on the monk/bruiser to guardian comparisons people are making.I believe the reason you notice the difference between the 2 is agi/evade tanks will dodge a lot more specials than the sta/meat tanks.Mob specials dont seem to take a/c into account and will often knock the ward off immediately and solo healing we're catching up from there having to use heals before our ward becomes available again.Anyways, I've been grouping with a druid for the last 20 lvls and the shaman druid combo rocks. (I think cleric may be the only viable solo group healer but you really need 2 healers in a group.)Spent 4 hours the other night in runnyeye fighting 6/7 mob red goblin groups with an ^^ boss (shift leader i think - 6 lvls higher than us and no crowd control in party) without ever looking like we were in trouble.This may be helped by a real solid 2 tank duo of zerker and guardian - zerker tanking and guardian entrenching the ^^ + protecting the zerker. Are wards underpowered? Maybe, but not enough for me to be bothered.

Gura
12-18-2004, 07:07 PM
<DIV>I am a level 36 Mystic on the Permafrost server.  I thought I would share with you all my personal experience with my class and how it could use some improvements (IMO).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3333ff>Wards:</FONT></DIV> <DIV>Like most of the people posting here, I believe wards need some tweaking.  First of all to dispel the myths:</DIV> <DIV>Wards absorb unmitigated damage.</DIV> <DIV>Wards do not block effects from combat arts or spells.  Any debuffs or DoTs will fly right through a ward.</DIV> <DIV>Wards <EM>do not </EM>heal at their expiration at this time.  According to the spell information, Ancestral Ward in the least <EM>should</EM>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ward spells I have noticed are non-existant in the Adept 1 range; I have never seen a copy of Spectral or Ancestral ward adept 1 for sale or drop in any encounter.  So, I had mine made.  I spent the money to buy the components to have Spectral and Ancestral ward upgraded to Adept 3.  So when I talk about effectiveness of wards, I am making reference to Adept 3 level as well as character level 36.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3333ff>Slows:</FONT></DIV> <DIV>It is true that casting slow will greatly affect the outcome of a battle.  I use my single target slow: Keening Haze or my group slow: Grim Lethargy in every battle.  The effectiveness at Adept 1 is reasonable, and I feel that it is a good usage of power.  I do not feel, however, that slow should be taken into consideration when we are talking about purely healing effectiveness.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3333ff>Direct Heals:</FONT></DIV> <DIV>I use Spiritual Replenishment (Master 1) as my main direct heal.  It is by far the most effective direct heal spell I have, and will outperform every other healer that I have come across.. in efficiency.  This may change when the Master levels become more common.. as I am most likely comparing my Master 1 to, at most, an Adept 3 in the other class.  For my second healing spell, I use the level 18 Healing Ritual (Adept 1).. sad as it is.. this spell is more efficient than my newer Spiritual Healing (Apprentice2).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have grouped with many people since the start of the game.  During that time I have been grouped with every type of fighter and I have seen the differences with which they mitigate damage with and without wards.  I do not favor any fighter class over another.  Simply put, whoever can keep the aggro under control is my choice for the main tank.  I have seen guardians that are horrible at keeping aggro and take massive damage.  I have also seen monks who are excellent at keeping aggro and take nearly no damage.  It is a matter of skill, gear, and level I think that makes a tank.. the <EM>main</EM> tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as healing in groups is concerned.. I am mostly grouped with another healer whenever I join a group.  Since most people do not enjoy chain killing blue - yellow conned monsters, two healers is pretty much necessary if you want to chain pull orange - red monsters.  I have noticed that in every case a group with two healers does better if the healers are of different classes.  2 clerics, druids, or shamans are not as effective paired as 2 differring class priests would be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a mystic, my favorite priest partner is a druid (warden or fury).  By their very nature wards and regeneration work well together.  My normal tactic is to ward when the tank reaches 75 - 80% health.  At which point the druid will cast his regeneration.  So, to clarify, the ward stops incomming damage for a time while the regen heals what damage has been done to that point.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Being grouped with a cleric is not difficult either.  I see some making reference to the fact that a ward will prevent a reactive heal from activating.  Well.. that is true, until 4 seconds after you cast the ward (when it typically runs out).  Then it heals the tank as they are taking damage (as they are supposed to do).  So really.. the scenario of a cleric's reactive never taking effect is a myth.  Even were I to chain cast my wards, they do not last long enough nor prevent enough damage to nullify the reactive heal.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Grouping with another Shaman however, is very difficult.  By nature we are supposed to be most skilled at preventing damage via ward.  Theoretically.. this is true.  In my groups one shaman will be chosen to ward and the other chosen to direct heal.  This is by far the most inefficient combination of healers for a group in my experience.  Encounters that will drain ~half of the power of 2 opposing priest classes will drain nearly all of the power of 2 shamans.  Again, this is just my personal experience.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Solo healing is difficult for me.  I do not know if this is the case for everyone, but I find that even chain warding a tank is insufficient to deal with yellow and orange con mobs. It is true that I <EM>can</EM> keep the group alive, but it will usually consume nearly all of my power.  I do not have the exact numbers, the servers have been down all day <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, but my Ancestral Ward blocks ~900 damage I believe, Spectral Ward blocking maybe half that amount or so...  They block unmitigated damage... so even on my armor class.. a normal hit of 50 is the equivalent of 100-150 on my ward.  To accurately judge how balanced our wards are with the other class' heals, we need to discover how much damage they <EM>realistically</EM> prevent.  Unmitigated damage doesn't count.  How much damage are we really preventing with each ward?  Comparing it with the amount of power used will give us our efficiency.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have seen some people say even mages will be fine tanking with our wards, that is ignorance speaking.  It is true that my ward will prevent the same amount of damage to them.. but what happens after it wears off?  There is a gap between wards.. recast time.  Tanks with higher AC will still do better tanking with us.. if only for the few seconds that exist between our wards.  After a short time.. they WILL take some damage.  While chain warding, if your tank is dropping into yellow and orange.. then you must spend power to direct heal.  This is really the drainer of mystic power.  When it becomes necessary to heal in addition to ward, then we can use ALL of our power up in seconds.  Usually this chain of events occurs during the first few seconds of the fight.. or when you get a group of adds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I seriously think we are just a tad inefficient at healing when we are compared to both druids and clerics on a solo priest basis.  Our wards are not "extra hp", they are damage prevention.  Forget runes... that lasted several minutes at the least.  Wards last ohhh ~35 seconds at the very most.  In most groups a ward will be consumed before 5-10 seconds has expired.  Clerics and Druids (IMHO) do better in most cases with their healing types in efficiency.  To heal (or prevent) the same amount of damage I seem to use about 25% more power than the other priests use.  The key here is damage mitigation.  A ward will absorb at least 25-50% more damage than the person being warded would normally take, depending on their class and AC.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To sum it all up, I only have problems when I am not paired with another healer.  In a group with 2 or more healers.. mystic really shines.  Solo healing, it seems we fall very short of what we should be.  Seems like this turned into a really long post... oh well.  Not like anyone was doing anything else while all the servers are down.  :smileyhappy:</DIV>

Ironmaul1
12-18-2004, 08:00 PM
<DIV>I personally am finding the class well balanced with the other priest classes.Wards when used well and in a timely fashion ARE effective.I get tells for groups all the time and if I put my LFG up Ill usually get multiple tells within minuets.</DIV>

disru
12-18-2004, 11:32 PM
Some people keep jumping back to the outlook of: "yeah I get groups no problem so wards are fine"All mystics usually have no problem getting groups. Most of us love out subclass. Most of us are happy with all that we bring to a group.<B>The sole point of this thread is about wards. Wards by themselves, not how they are after we debuff or what kind of tank we're casting on.</B>The devs have stated that all healing classes should be able to heal equally well, that should not, in my opinion, be determined by what type of tank we're healing. All priest classes have debuffs that lower encounter damage output (e.g. cleric spell that provides slashing/crushing/piercing mitigation) so please leave debuffs out of the conversation.Post as if ward is the only spell you have in your spell book and tell us your ideas for improvement or if you think its fine how it is.Please keep this in mind when posting.

Zalier
12-19-2004, 02:38 AM
<DIV>Well i have read a few good points on this issue and think there is a pretty close balance comparing our role to other healers.  However, has anyone thought of the tanks on this issue?  I play 20+ mystic and guardian.  I know myself and many other guardians pride themselves upon having the best ac they can possibly have no matter what cost.  And a lot of guardians spend a lot of time and money making sure they have top of the line gear.  (im using guardians for example but all tanks are this way i believe)  So now you are in a grp with a guardian who has great ac and defence capabilities.  But as a heal type class, your wards are basicly nullifying all the work that guardian or tank has gone through to get his ac to a respectable level.  Tanks can go naked and it really wont make a big deal until u run outa mana from chain warding.  I think it might even be beneficial to slightly lower the amount of dmg a ward can absorb but put that after ac and midigation.  This way its not just a flat rate of what you are gonna be able to do.  It will have more dependance on buffs and AC of the tank.  Creates more variability and adds another possible strategy view.  It just depends on what point of view you look at it from.  And i know other healer classes will prolly be upset if we just change it to be uber duper, but I hate the fact that its a linear thing.  Think of the most important varible here, the person who is being warded.  How should the spell affect them, dont think it should nullify thier ac cuz that isnt fair to them.  But this just my 2 cents, lemme know what u think, if infact you can think.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

FelixDomesticus
12-19-2004, 08:30 PM
It is pretty much all the same if they fix wards by making them to absorb more damage or by making wards to take damage mitigation into account when final damage is calculated. I do not care how it is done as far as they fix wards so that they become actually useful.BTW. Why it should be based on tanks AC? As someone suggested it could also be based on shamans AC as shaman is keeping the ward up.

SythRavenha
12-19-2004, 11:29 PM
<DIV>I have often thought about starting a Shaman myself, which is why I was reading this post. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I currently have a Paladin.  Now, many people do not realize Paladins get targetable wards as well.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At lower levels (around15), I could frequently solo yellow mobs, casting the ward on myself one time, and end the fight only taking maybe 5% health loss.  Now, I am by no means a high level yet, but at level 20, a solo yellow mob will take this ward down in one, sometimes two, hits.  Don't even ask me about group mobs, as the ward is an absolute waste of mana.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I realize the Paladin ward is not supposed to be anywhere near as powerful as a Shaman ward, but it seems the power cost per usefullness of the spell really detoriates badly as I level.  I can only assume it does so for the Shaman as well, by my experience, as well as those posting here.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The difference, well, that Ward is not the Paladins bread and butter spell line, though it certainly made soloing much more feasible.  I cannot imagine how annoying this has to be for the Shamans of EQ2, since it is one of the primary spells.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I sure hope something changes on it, because of all the priest classes I would like to play, Shammie fits my style more than any.  Until that time, I implore all of you to keep pushing thru.  Imbalances will eventually be tended to, and anyone believing this is not an imbalance is wearing blinders.</DIV>

k
12-20-2004, 05:04 PM
<DIV>The test server patch which Im assuming was the failed production update had this information in it:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>- Apprentice IV ward spells can now absorb an increased amount of damage</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Has anyone played on the test server to confirm if this affects us? Also what is Apprentice IV?</DIV>

Po
12-20-2004, 05:19 PM
<DIV>Slows were overpowered in everquest and made the game retardedly easy at higher levels, and i agree that majority of direct damage comes from specials most of the time i dont even try and put a ward on a tank until the enchanter berserker etc is already zapping the power .</DIV>

JPete
12-20-2004, 07:35 PM
<DIV>I have played a mystic to lvl 24 and here is what I have noticed so far.  The lvl and the equipment of the MT makes a big differance in how well my wards work.  If the mob cons high to the warrior, high yellow, or higher, I find that I have a very difficult time keeping the warrior alive, having to recast ward and direct heal almost constantly to keep him alive.  I have no time to debuff the mob usually.  I also usually drain all my mana, and the battle is very tight.  Usually ward is beat off faster then the recast time of ward, so I have to go to direct heal, ward, direct heal over and over.  I would assume that a templar or warden would also have a difficult time.  Add in a second healer, and we usually feel more comfortable, but still eat the manna up.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When we fight something closer to the MT's level, I find that wards are sufficient, with a direct heal to fill the hp bar occasionally.  Not only that, I find that I have time to put my debuffs in, greatly effecting the usefullness of my ward.  If a ward wears off I don't have to immeditely put a heal in or another ward up since the warrior is able to withstand the blows and have his health plumment.  In fact as the battle goes on, the shields last longer, since mob is debuffed, and usually they have performed the majority of their special attacks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is this thread trying to say that wards become useless later on in level, because so far I have been happy with them over all.  Or are you trying to say that a templar or warden can keep a MT alive when the mob cons 3 or more lvls to him more easily.  If this is the case, it sounds like they have too powerful of heals.  The con system is there for a reason, and when it says the encounter is risky, take heed.  Or are you trying to say that our heals are less manna efficient then the other priests.  I have found that I am very efficient when we are fighting mobs in our lvl range.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My only gripe with ward right now is it dosn't block DOT's.  This seems a little unbalanced since a HOT or RH will counter DOT's (heal the damage caused through the DOT).  Also having hard time finding a update to ward is annoying, considering the other two classes are more common it seems.  If ward was to get a AC attached to it, I doubt that it will be the MT's lvl since this would make it as powerful as a templar's hp buff (other then not being able to replenish it through a heal).  Allowing a ward to be replenished is an interesting idea.  Again being pre 25, I can only speak of what I know.  So far I feel that ward is fine.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as working with a templar, my expierence has been great, can't speak for them, but feel we compliment each other greatly.  I debuff, slow down damage with wards, and templar keeps hp bars full.  I have been through some tough battles that looked hopeless at the beginning, to stand victorious at the end, I couldn't have done it without the templar's help.  And they express their gratitude I am there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If ward becomes usless higher in level, then I am sorry I posted.  But the post did mention 20+.  So far I have not had trouble finding groups, and have truely enjoyed playing a mystic, so I hope wards don't become useless further down the road.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lostbear</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Karla
12-20-2004, 10:52 PM
<DIV>When your in a group, fighting anything lower than yellow is a waste fo time.</DIV>

FelixDomesticus
12-21-2004, 01:02 AM
<blockquote><hr>Poac wrote:<DIV>Slows were overpowered in everquest and made the game retardedly easy at higher levels, and i agree that majority of direct damage comes from specials most of the time i dont even try and put a ward on a tank until the enchanter berserker etc is already zapping the power .</DIV><hr></blockquote>Were... correct. Then they nerfed slows by adding slow mitigation to last 2 Eq1 expansions and "forgot" to adjust shaman heals to match that nerf. Thats when I got enough and stopped playing my level 66 shaman. And I will not go back to Eq1...You are right, it sucks that all special damage goes through wards forcing us to use extra power for healing because of that. Wards are badly broken if you ask me.

Saraphi
12-21-2004, 01:56 AM
<DIV>I disagree that fighting anything less then red or orange is a waste of time. IT cons orange or red because it is too hard. Its not conning that way for giggles. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If your in a group that wants to take on reds then leave. Where people get this mentailty I dont know. In EQ1 if people took on reds they would literally get there butts handed to them. Maybe the problem here is that reds need to be upped to a larger degree, forcing groups to take on mobs appropriate to there level. That way the healers can keep up. Maybe it has nothing to do with wards at all. I see templars complaining about this exact problem, I imagine druids have the same issue.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So the fix is: make red mobs become harder, so groups fight what is right for them. The unfortunate truth of it is that the game has to set the celings, not the players.</DIV>

ogg
12-21-2004, 02:53 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Karlace wrote:<BR> <DIV>When your in a group, fighting anything lower than yellow is a waste fo time.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> That statement is completely subjective and only holds any meaning to your group.  Groups should fight what they can efficiently handle given level, gear, skill, and class combinations.

Shadow Myst
12-21-2004, 04:06 AM
<DIV>Level 25 mystic here.  I think wards may need a bit of tweaking, but not much.  Wards by themselves at this level or higher are useless.  One or two hits, and they are gone.  Now you toss in, all the debuffs and ward, they are not useless anymore.  Last night we were doing the undead troopers in the ditch in TS.  They were yellow ^^.  I would ward the main tank and he would pull.  If he got hit once or sometimes twice by the time he got back, the ward was done.  I would cast ward again, then delusion, haze, Ward, weakness, then that new debuff i got at 24.5 I cant remember what it is called.  And yes I still use weakness at level 25.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, with all these debuffs on, I would have to cast ward maybe one more time before the MOB dropped.  The wards would last till they timed out, not by damage.  Of course my ward is adept3, but I dont think it is a fair question to just ask how ward does alone.  If they upped the damage a ward could take, then I dont think it be would much of a challange.  We could do 3 to 4 pulls before I would need a rest for energy.  Which worked out well, since that is about the same time the Wiz's needed a break.  I think the key to making your wards successful is using your debuffs correctly.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Shadow Mystic on <span class=date_text>12-20-2004</span> <span class=time_text>03:08 PM</span>

Xran
12-21-2004, 04:19 AM
1 thing priest in general need to take note is match the mob's con w/ the MT instead of healers.Against L25 ^^mob, the ward will be crap if the Mystic is L24, the MT is L23 Guardian.1 level not big difference for Mystic & Guardian. The mob is yellow^^ to L24 Mystic, but perhapsit is orange^^ or high-yellow^^ to the L23 Guardian. The ward is probably be gone in 1 hit. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Now if the Guardian is L24 or L25, the Ward might last a little longer.

disru
12-21-2004, 04:28 AM
<blockquote><hr>Xrande wrote:1 thing priest in general need to take note is match the mob's con w/ the MT instead of healers.Against L25 ^^mob, the ward will be crap if the Mystic is L24, the MT is L23 Guardian.1 level not big difference for Mystic & Guardian. The mob is yellow^^ to L24 Mystic, but perhapsit is orange^^ or high-yellow^^ to the L23 Guardian. The ward is probably be gone in 1 hit. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Now if the Guardian is L24 or L25, the Ward might last a little longer.<hr></blockquote>Good point, the higher the level you are in regards to the mob you're fighting, the more you avoid/dodge hits from them. When I fight blue solo cons by myself I don't even use ward due to the fact that I barely lose any life anyway.So the question is: What con mobs are groups suppose to be fighting? I would find it hard to believe that groups are expected to be fighting white and blue mobs all the time, which would be the mobs that wards would be effective on.<p>Message Edited by disrupt on <span class=date_text>12-20-2004</span> <span class=time_text>03:29 PM</span>

Saraphi
12-21-2004, 09:31 PM
<DIV>Why is that so hard to believe?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In EQ1, before PoP came out and ruined the conning system, you would generally fight blues, and on raids, try for reds. But only on raids. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In EQ2 you can right click on the target window and see what it cons to you. If it says red and something about this mob is too hard for you, followed by 'this mob is well matched to a group of 3 or more' that does not mean that it wouldnt be hard to a group of three or more (unless its a solo mob). I think by the mid twenties we have a concept of group vs solo mobs. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The game tried very hard to put an effective conning system in place. Its a shame that other games have ruined it before its even started. Red means too hard, Yellow means pretty [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] tough and should be a tight fight, white means even to your group. </DIV>

Xran
12-21-2004, 09:52 PM
<blockquote><hr>disrupt wrote:Good point, the higher the level you are in regards to the mob you're fighting, the more you avoid/dodge hits from them. When I fight blue solo cons by myself I don't even use ward due to the fact that I barely lose any life anyway.So the question is: What con mobs are groups suppose to be fighting? I would find it hard to believe that groups are expected to be fighting white and blue mobs all the time, which would be the mobs that wards would be effective on.<hr></blockquote>I think what con mobs group should fight is around the MT and the ones doing dmg to the mob.Blue and whites are ideal, but really boring. I believe a good fight for groups would be yellow multiple or yellow^^.Low orange are great too. I think above that is pushing and often requires more healing or 2nd healer...and more intricate group combi.of course red can be taken on anytime if you have a fantastic team combi.eg, with 1 tank, 2 healers, 2 dps, 1 utility (enchanter/bard)....that's a very nice set of complements.

Banditman
12-21-2004, 10:42 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> oggin wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Karlace wrote:<BR> <DIV>When your in a group, fighting anything lower than yellow is a waste fo time.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> That statement is completely subjective and only holds any meaning to your group.  Groups should fight what they can efficiently handle given level, gear, skill, and class combinations.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>This should be like one of the EQ 2 commandments or something.</P> <P>Just because that group you were in last night was able to handle "Mob X" in "Zone Y" does not mean that the group you are with TONITE will be able to do the same things.</P> <P>If your group is struggling with double up yellows, lots of downtime, deaths, running for a zone line . . . you are completely irresponsible as a group leader if you continue to try to fight those mobs.  Find some white and blue double ups.  Kill those.  In the long run, you will find your returns are much greater this way.</P> <P>Keep in mind that con color of a mob is also subjective.  For instance, if I am a L25 in a group of L27-28 players, yes, we're taking out yellow and orange double ups from my point of view . . . but from the PoV of the other players, these are blue, white and perhaps a yellow.</P>

disru
12-21-2004, 11:21 PM
<blockquote><hr>Saraphion wrote:<DIV>Why is that so hard to believe?</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>In EQ1, before PoP came out and ruined the conning system, you would generally fight blues, and on raids, try for reds. But only on raids. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>In EQ2 you can right click on the target window and see what it cons to you. If it says red and something about this mob is too hard for you, followed by 'this mob is well matched to a group of 3 or more' that does not mean that it wouldnt be hard to a group of three or more (unless its a solo mob). I think by the mid twenties we have a concept of group vs solo mobs. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>The game tried very hard to put an effective conning system in place. Its a shame that other games have ruined it before its even started. Red means too hard, Yellow means pretty [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] tough and should be a tight fight, white means even to your group. </DIV><hr></blockquote>Why is it so hard to believe? Because a group I had a couple nights ago (Paladin, Ranger, Warden, Mystic, Wizard, Swashbuckler) were completely tearing through orange ^^ group cons with no downtime. The group was lvl 28 - 30.

Kede
12-22-2004, 01:16 AM
<DIV>Most of the time when I group, there are 2 healers. A cleric type and myself 21 shaman. I normaly take over the healing of everyone in the group but the Main tank. I also really push for a scout class to pull or even a monk somtimes. So the scout pulls, and I take care of him till the main tank takes the agro. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have been main healer before, but I deffintaly see that I am nothing compared a cleric class. I also seem to work a ton better on a low AC class too.</DIV>

Banditman
12-22-2004, 02:45 AM
<DIV>You can heal any tank if you put your mind to it.  You just have to work a little harder than the Clerics and Druids when the tank is a mitigation style (Warrior Class) tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, our Wards seem more effective and efficient when the MT is an avoidance style (Brawler Class) tank.  This is currently a beef many Shaman have with the game.  It's due to the way our Wards are applied by the game.</DIV>

Karla
12-22-2004, 02:52 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Saraphion wrote:<BR> <DIV>I disagree that fighting anything less then red or orange is a waste of time. IT cons orange or red because it is too hard. Its not conning that way for giggles. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If your in a group that wants to take on reds then leave. Where people get this mentailty I dont know. In EQ1 if people took on reds they would literally get there butts handed to them. Maybe the problem here is that reds need to be upped to a larger degree, forcing groups to take on mobs appropriate to there level. That way the healers can keep up. Maybe it has nothing to do with wards at all. I see templars complaining about this exact problem, I imagine druids have the same issue.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So the fix is: make red mobs become harder, so groups fight what is right for them. The unfortunate truth of it is that the game has to set the celings, not the players.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Fighting yellows just does not give enough xp, and takes all night to get 3%

Karla
12-22-2004, 02:57 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Saraphion wrote:<BR> <DIV>Why is that so hard to believe?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In EQ1, before PoP came out and ruined the conning system, you would generally fight blues, and on raids, try for reds. But only on raids. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In EQ2 you can right click on the target window and see what it cons to you. If it says red and something about this mob is too hard for you, followed by 'this mob is well matched to a group of 3 or more' that does not mean that it wouldnt be hard to a group of three or more (unless its a solo mob). I think by the mid twenties we have a concept of group vs solo mobs. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The game tried very hard to put an effective conning system in place. Its a shame that other games have ruined it before its even started. Red means too hard, Yellow means pretty [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] tough and should be a tight fight, white means even to your group. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Then they need to up the xp.  Plan and simple white and lower con gie crap xp.

Merrygr
12-22-2004, 05:07 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Karlace wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Saraphion wrote:<BR> <DIV>Why is that so hard to believe?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In EQ1, before PoP came out and ruined the conning system, you would generally fight blues, and on raids, try for reds. But only on raids. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In EQ2 you can right click on the target window and see what it cons to you. If it says red and something about this mob is too hard for you, followed by 'this mob is well matched to a group of 3 or more' that does not mean that it wouldnt be hard to a group of three or more (unless its a solo mob). I think by the mid twenties we have a concept of group vs solo mobs. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The game tried very hard to put an effective conning system in place. Its a shame that other games have ruined it before its even started. Red means too hard, Yellow means pretty [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] tough and should be a tight fight, white means even to your group. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Then they need to up the xp.  Plan and simple white and lower con gie crap xp.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P> </P> <P>Derail:</P> <P>That is subjective. I'd prefer they lower xp on yellow and higer as the rate of advancement is too quick in game anyway.</P>

Xran
12-22-2004, 11:57 PM
Too fast? Not for me. I semi-casual. So this pace is already a grind post 20. It is fine as it is especially after the harder mobs hitting.

BigDa
12-23-2004, 05:32 PM
<DIV>The more I read about this issue the more I feel gimped.  I do ok as a healer, and I mosty do that with a Paladin, but I do feel overwhelmed without a second healer - this can't be the way it's supposed to be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's like when the gods sat down to design healer spells they decided to do it backwards for a laugh.  Vitaes happen <EM>after</EM> mitigation and, so, if the armor is good they don't fire (that is right, yes?) and Wards happen <EM>before</EM> mitigation and are ignored by special attacks and so are rendered useless (well, much less useful) in most fights.  Adding Wards and Vitaes is the ultimate bad situation.  What the heck?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>IMHO if you make Ward <EM>after</EM> mitigation and Vitae <EM>before</EM> then both spells are suddenly more evenly applied and without interference.  On a high AC tank the ward lasts longer and the Vitaes will fire to heal any existing damage.  Shamans prevent, Clerics fix.  On low AC tank, the wards AND vitaes take more of a pounding, but the tank does higher DPS *shrug* the balance is there without screwing up heals.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wish I'd made a druid, now.  Nothing messes up HoTs + instant heals.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please, devs, reduce the effectiveness of both Vitae and Ward if you like, but reverse the mitigation issue!</DIV>

Peri
12-23-2004, 07:23 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BigDave wrote:<BR> <DIV>The more I read about this issue the more I feel gimped.  I do ok as a healer, and I mosty do that with a Paladin, but I do feel overwhelmed without a second healer - this can't be the way it's supposed to be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's like when the gods sat down to design healer spells they decided to do it backwards for a laugh.  Vitaes happen <EM>after</EM> mitigation and, so, if the armor is good they don't fire (that is right, yes?) and Wards happen <EM>before</EM> mitigation and are ignored by special attacks and so are rendered useless (well, much less useful) in most fights.  Adding Wards and Vitaes is the ultimate bad situation.  What the heck?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>IMHO if you make Ward <EM>after</EM> mitigation and Vitae <EM>before</EM> then both spells are suddenly more evenly applied and without interference.  On a high AC tank the ward lasts longer and the Vitaes will fire to heal any existing damage.  Shamans prevent, Clerics fix.  On low AC tank, the wards AND vitaes take more of a pounding, but the tank does higher DPS *shrug* the balance is there without screwing up heals.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wish I'd made a druid, now.  Nothing messes up HoTs + instant heals.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please, devs, reduce the effectiveness of both Vitae and Ward if you like, but reverse the mitigation issue!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>hah hah, I would love to see how many clerics would whine about our point of view then.  I have often wondered if I could convince a cleric to work with a tank wearing no armor at all, to better appreciate how much AC does for them.</DIV>

BigDa
12-23-2004, 07:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Periak wrote:<BR> <DIV>hah hah, I would love to see how many clerics would whine about our point of view then.  I have often wondered if I could convince a cleric to work with a tank wearing no armor at all, to better appreciate how much AC does for them.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I may be wrong, but I thought Vitae only fires if the tank takes damage, in which case it would be <EM>more</EM> effective if it fired regardless of AC.  Totally opposite to ours.  It truly seems backwards.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>An armourless tank would obviously take more damage and need to be healed more, but the clerics vitae would be guaranteed to fire because the target would be guaranteed to take damage, and would be working at top efficiency.  Thus, if the vitae worked before mitigation, it would fire as if the tank wore no armor and so be more efficient.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hehe I'm not sure I'm making sense anymore o_0  If I ever did!</DIV>

Banditman
12-23-2004, 09:09 PM
<DIV>Vitae's efficiency isn't at all tied to AC.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The ONLY way for Vitae to be efficient is for the tank to have lost more HP than the spell fires for.  Basically, a Cleric needs to wait until the tank has taken some damage before using Vitae.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If a tank is sitting there taking 10-20 damage per hit from a mob, and a Cleric's Vitae is doing 100 points of healing, the Cleric needs to let the tank get nearly 500 HP down before casting Vitae.  Otherwise the heal value is wasted.</DIV>

Ender
12-23-2004, 09:24 PM
no, not 500 hp. More like 150 hp. If tank gets consistently hit for 120 hp for example, and if my vitae heals for 130 hp, I let the tank get two hits then apply vitae. the difference is really a +10 hp heal.

Banditman
12-23-2004, 11:14 PM
<DIV>I understand the math.  In my example, 500 HP is right.  In yours, 150 is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Basically, the tank needs to be down [5 x (Vitae.heal.pulse - avg.mob.hit)] HP in order for Vitae to have the maximum efficiency.  If that formula yields a negative number then Vitae needs to be cast immediately and instant heals used to supplement it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I simply didn't see the need to get all gory with the math.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*shrug*</DIV>

disru
12-28-2004, 10:36 PM
This information was taken from <A HREF="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=2402#M2402" target=_blank>this</A> post on the Templar forums.Interesting numbers.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------lazlo1 wrote:1300 AC lvl 25 Guardian vs lvl 23 mobThe ward takes double the damage that the guardian took.56.8 vs 26.8This is even worse than my last test on a 700 AC lvl 21 Guardian. Then it was around 50% increase in damage. I could not find that file so I redid the test. Im glad I did, now I feel even better about retiring my mystic. The results only seem to get worse. I hope Sony does something about this, but I was not gona wait around and see. I play almost always with a guardian since I plan to play EQ2 for a while I wanted the best match.I did notice one thing the ward does not seem to effect hit/miss ratio. I may have been wrong about AC affecting hit/miss ratio since clearly wards bypass AC.I also agree with many posters as this doesnt effect templars and doesnt belong on this forum. But I just wanted to set the record strait as the FACTs. Wards currently are pre AC as these number show.Here are the numbers I cut out all specials, misses, ect..Note this is all 1 blue solo 23 mob. The guardian didnt attack most of the fight.for this part I used only heals.a young antelope hits YOU for 40 points of crushing damage.a young antelope hits YOU for 17 points of crushing damage.a young antelope hits YOU for 36 points of crushing damage.a young antelope hits YOU for 22 points of crushing damage.a young antelope hits YOU for 26 points of crushing damage. 141a young antelope hits YOU for 22 points of crushing damage.a young antelope hits YOU for 23 points of crushing damage.a young antelope hits YOU for 39 points of crushing damage.a young antelope hits YOU for 15 points of crushing damage.a young antelope hits YOU for 28 points of crushing damage. 127a young antelope hits YOU for 28 points of crushing damage.a young antelope hits YOU for 30 points of crushing damage.a young antelope hits YOU for 35 points of crushing damage.a young antelope hits YOU for 20 points of crushing damage.a young antelope hits YOU for 40 points of crushing damage. 153a young antelope hits YOU for 15 points of crushing damage.a young antelope hits YOU for 38 points of crushing damage.a young antelope hits YOU for 38 points of crushing damage.a young antelope hits YOU for 34 points of crushing damage.a young antelope hits YOU for 27 points of crushing damage. 152a young antelope hits YOU for 24 points of crushing damage.a young antelope hits YOU for 25 points of crushing damage.a young antelope hits YOU for 35 points of crushing damage.a young antelope hits YOU for 38 points of crushing damage.a young antelope hits YOU for 25 points of crushing damage. 147a young antelope hits YOU for 34 points of crushing damage.a young antelope hits YOU for 17 points of crushing damage.a young antelope hits YOU for 23 points of crushing damage.a young antelope hits YOU for 38 points of crushing damage. 112832 / 29 = 28.6 average per hitFor this part I recast ward at 50% to make sure ward got it all.Your ward absorbed 45 points of damage!Your ward absorbed 38 points of damage!Your ward absorbed 65 points of damage!Your ward absorbed 76 points of damage!Your ward absorbed 65 points of damage! 309Your ward absorbed 34 points of damage!Your ward absorbed 69 points of damage!Your ward absorbed 42 points of damage!Your ward absorbed 57 points of damage!Your ward absorbed 48 points of damage! 250Your ward absorbed 51 points of damage!Your ward absorbed 65 points of damage!Your ward absorbed 71 points of damage!Your ward absorbed 64 points of damage!Your ward absorbed 46 points of damage! 297Your ward absorbed 66 points of damage!Your ward absorbed 44 points of damage!Your ward absorbed 49 points of damage!Your ward absorbed 57 points of damage!Your ward absorbed 79 points of damage! 295Your ward absorbed 40 points of damage!Your ward absorbed 76 points of damage!Your ward absorbed 53 points of damage!Your ward absorbed 76 points of damage!Your ward absorbed 41 points of damage! 286Your ward absorbed 41 points of damage! 411478 / 26 = 56.8 average per ward hitThe same guardian stripped vs the the same type/lvl of mob. A lvl 25 human guardian with nothing in the slots except a mace has around 300 ac. The damage was still not as high as with the ward on. So the ward is less than naked damage wise because of the base AC of a warrior.a naked very uncomfortable guardian getting only heals hehe.a young antelope hits YOU for 60 points of crushing damage.a young antelope hits YOU for 35 points of crushing damage.a young antelope hits YOU for 63 points of crushing damage.a young antelope hits YOU for 68 points of crushing damage.a young antelope hits YOU for 44 points of crushing damage. 270a young antelope hits YOU for 42 points of crushing damage.a young antelope hits YOU for 58 points of crushing damage.a young antelope hits YOU for 44 points of crushing damage.a young antelope hits YOU for 69 points of crushing damage.a young antelope hits YOU for 49 points of crushing damage. 262a young antelope hits YOU for 33 points of crushing damage.a young antelope hits YOU for 60 points of crushing damage.a young antelope hits YOU for 55 points of crushing damage.a young antelope hits YOU for 39 points of crushing damage.a young antelope hits YOU for 60 points of crushing damage. 247a young antelope hits YOU for 45 points of crushing damage.a young antelope hits YOU for 27 points of crushing damage.a young antelope hits YOU for 42 points of crushing damage.a young antelope hits YOU for 47 points of crushing damage.a young antelope hits YOU for 33 points of crushing damage. 194973 / 20 = 48.65---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I am now completely convinced that this is not the way wards are suppose to work in the eyes of the devs. A ward actually takes *more* damage than a completely naked character? Seems silly.<p>Message Edited by disrupt on <span class=date_text>12-29-2004</span> <span class=time_text>09:38 AM</span>

Banditman
12-28-2004, 10:57 PM
<DIV>This data ties in nicely with some work I'm doing on healing efficiency.  Thank you for sharing it.</DIV>

Karla
12-29-2004, 02:17 AM
<DIV>Shamans are pure and simple not effective healers.  If wards cost half the power of a cleric RA or a druid HoT then we have a case.  A ward assumes 0 ac, so either it is bugged..... or the devs assume we are healing naked wizards.</DIV>

Banditman
12-29-2004, 02:36 AM
<DIV>Half isnt exactly right - I've got some numbers that are exactly right in an upcoming post.</DIV>

Job
12-29-2004, 11:03 PM
<DIV><FONT size=3>let the SOE developers come and explain if this is the way they intended wards to work and why they have designed them to work this way...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>then we can keep playing them or drop them... </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>22mystic</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>the fact that specials and spells go right thru our wards is not good for the tank's initial pull... very crippling to our subclass as buffer/healer</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>

BigDa
12-30-2004, 02:59 PM
<DIV>I'm 32nd level now and I'm getting fed up with this ward stuff.  I'm not a bad player - I played a cleric over 4+ years to level 65 + AAs in EQ1, not that that proves much, but yah know.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm finding more and more that the mobs that a party usually feels confident going after with druid/cleric can cause issues with me unless I am <EM>very</EM> careful or am happy to blow all my power every fight.  I put up both wards (and a group ward, some fights) and still have to plough in with instant heals that suck my power even after I've Slowed and Debuffed.  Most mobs at my level have lots of specials and they are flying straight through my wards.  The wards are timing out by the time the mobs run out of power using their specials, then they drop to normal attacks that would be heavily mitigated by my tanks armor anyway.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm ordinarily a happy-go-lucky kinda person, but this is beginning to make every fight a frustrating trial for me and my groups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Geebuz, that was too close again!  Right - let's move on, quick - oh, hold on, the mystic is powerless..."</DIV>

disru
01-04-2005, 03:40 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Faarwolf wrote:Essentially, we just don't have enough people to spend a lot of time on every forum, so we spend a lot of time on the most troublesome ones. Other Devs read all the forums but they don't necessarily post there - they just look for feedback. Hopefully we should have some more assistance soon.____________________FaarwolfThe Wrath of the ModsEverQuest II"Enforcing the play-nice standard - one lock at a time."--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------source: <A HREF="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=ForumHelp&message.id=2366#M2366" target=_blank>click here</A>They <b>are</b> listening even if not responding.

cas
01-05-2005, 01:00 AM
<DIV>Hey all,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Don't forget we have instant heals as well another tool to go with Ward..  find your equation for every group..  Do you want to ward or do you want to instant heal..  I kinda like the need to switch at least we arent doing the same thing every fight in the same exact order..  (granted there are times when poop happens)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont think wards are underpowered at all..  If we could keep someone alive with just wards then they would be over powered.. since no other healing class relises on there special heal as there only heal..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can't spell</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but then again I just love the friendships I make in the game..   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Safe journeys all</DIV>

FelixDomesticus
01-05-2005, 01:16 AM
<blockquote><hr>casie wrote:<DIV>I dont think wards are underpowered at all..  If we could keep someone alive with just wards then they would be over powered.. since no other healing class relises on there special heal as there only heal..</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I can't spell</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>but then again I just love the friendships I make in the game..   </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Safe journeys all</DIV><hr></blockquote>And no other healer classes have special that mobs can hit down in one round...

cas
01-05-2005, 01:34 AM
<DIV>your point is..  what is total regen from druid regen spell..  what is total heal a reactive heal can do..  I highly doubt they add up to one nasty hit from a mob..</DIV>

Banditman
01-05-2005, 01:53 AM
<DIV>Hey!  Thanks for asking!  Here are those exact numbers!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>App III of all three spells here, each one costs 55 mana to cast . . . </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Spectral Ward:  403 HP (taken before armor mitigation)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regrowth:  480 HP (taken after armor mitigation)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Vitae:  510 HP (taken after armor mitigation)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Clear it up ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Banditman on <span class=date_text>01-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:53 PM</span>

disru
01-05-2005, 03:15 AM
I decided to poll the results of this thread so far. This percentage is by number of users posting, not by number of posts total. I gathered their general opinion by skimming the thread. If they mentioned anything about wards needing work, I counted as a yes. If they mentioned anything about wards being fine or overpowered, I counted as a no. Any post which did not clearly state an opinion was omitted from the total.Yes = anyone who felt they are completely worthless to anyone who thinks they just need minor tweaking.No = anyone who felt that they are perfectly balanced to anyone who thinks they are overpowered.Some of the posts are not from shaman, other classes have also stopped in to share their own opinion of wards, which I consider relevant.As of this post, Are Wards underpowered?:Yes - 77%No - 23%<p>Message Edited by disrupt on <span class=date_text>01-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:16 PM</span>

cas
01-05-2005, 03:59 AM
<DIV>Thanks Bandit for that info.  kinda always wanted to know <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do agree our wards fall off way to fast.  but once you get a mob debuffed I usually have my wards run full duration unless they get lucky..  I know we shouldn't be calculating our debuffs.  But if you think about it wouldnt you cast them anyways.  So we Slow and Delusion and then our wards last just about full duration.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so we can say 2 wards (not spectral the one after) 1 Keen haze 1 Delusion..  and maybe 1/3 of time a heal as well.  thats all I usually have to do to keep a Tank alive.  We fight mobs that are 2-3 lvls higher than Tank..  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now take an other healer..  Cleric type..  to be honest I have no idea there spells...  but I bet they have to do a reactive 2-3 times and probally a couple instant heals not to mention there debuffs.. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Isnt that about the same mana..  I am not trying to argue that our wards are weak they are but I think they are weak for a reason and thats cause of our debuffs..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(all of this is with a single mob in mind)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>am I wrong or does anyone see what I am saying..  </DIV> <DIV>please dont flame I am just a confused person..</DIV>

disru
01-05-2005, 04:39 AM
I don't think there has been any flaming on this particular thread yet and I hope it stays that way. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I must say I am happy with the way it has turned out so far, very constructive information from both sides.

Peri
01-05-2005, 05:56 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> casie wrote:<BR> <DIV>Thanks Bandit for that info.  kinda always wanted to know <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do agree our wards fall off way to fast.  but once you get a mob debuffed I usually have my wards run full duration unless they get lucky..  I know we shouldn't be calculating our debuffs.  But if you think about it wouldnt you cast them anyways.  So we Slow and Delusion and then our wards last just about full duration.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so we can say 2 wards (not spectral the one after) 1 Keen haze 1 Delusion..  and maybe 1/3 of time a heal as well.  thats all I usually have to do to keep a Tank alive.  We fight mobs that are 2-3 lvls higher than Tank..  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now take an other healer..  Cleric type..  to be honest I have no idea there spells...  but I bet they have to do a reactive 2-3 times and probally a couple instant heals not to mention there debuffs.. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Isnt that about the same mana..  I am not trying to argue that our wards are weak they are but I think they are weak for a reason and thats cause of our debuffs..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(all of this is with a single mob in mind)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>am I wrong or does anyone see what I am saying..  </DIV> <DIV>please dont flame I am just a confused person..</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I have no problem with the idea of debuffing being part of the way a shaman "heals".  But bear in mind, if it is a large part of how shaman are supposed to operate, then debuffs shouldn't be resisted nearly as much as they do (or at all), or they should have a much faster recycle times.</DIV>

Merrygr
01-05-2005, 12:07 PM
<DIV>I do have a problem with debuffs being part of our healing ability.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have a very good reason for this (at least I think it is). Look at EQ1. Shamans in EQ1 got slow. This spell was so overpowered that the shaman community is suffering from this still (might have changed in the last year, I wouldn't know). Becasue of slow (a game breaking (in EQ1) spell in my opinion) there were precious few updates on either healing or damage output for the EQ1 shaman. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So if we are required to use debuffs I fear it might again go the EQ1 way. Our regular healing falls way back compared to other heling classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We also have plenty of levels where we can't debuff multiple targets (which is what we fight a lot).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When I talk about debuffs I pretty much exclusively talk slow. I have not seen any impact using the other debuffs I have (at lvl 30).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Given a choice between debuffs and the same healing capability as the other healers I would ditch my debuffs in a heartbeat. Given any kind of choice I would give all the healers debuffs of differnt kinds that are about equal and then have the healing being equal too. The later is how I imagine the game is suposed to be.</DIV>

Leji
01-05-2005, 12:19 PM
<DIV>So, to have my ward have the same healing efficiency as say, a Templar, i must cast Keening Haze and Delusion on each and every mobs hitting on my MT.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Woah there, boy, i'm glad these debuffs cost no power, are insta cast and it's easy to cast em all on every mobs that are in the camp on multiple pulls.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's a nice little world some of you live in, but sadly, in mine these debuffs cost power, have a cast time, have long recasts and on the top of it they can be resisted. Often on pulls of multiple mobs i'll be lucky if i can even slow/debuff a single mob in the pack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the mean time, all the cleric and druid have to do is to cast their special heal ability to have full efficiency out of them! (should we also talk about their debuffs? No, let's not, let's keep thinking they do not own such things and that we have the debuff monopoly. Makes it easier on us to swallow the weakness of our Wards post lvl 30, doesn't it?)</DIV>

BigDa
01-05-2005, 02:41 PM
<DIV>Over the course of several similar thread I've drawn the same comclusion that most others seem to be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ward is balanced fine for white mobs - even white grouped mobs at a pinch.  Ward loses all effectiveness against yellow and up or ^ and ^^ mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The theory/lore behind warding is interesting - an external invisible barrier to damage - great.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Unfortunately, gameplay-wise it just doesn't scale.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Effectively, Templar reactives (and Druid HoTs to a lesser extent) become <EM>more</EM> efficient and effective as teh mobs get tougher.  Wards do the opposite.  <EM>This</EM> is where the problem lies.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How do we make wards scalable?  Applying after mitigation would go a long way...</DIV>

Merrygr
01-05-2005, 04:28 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BigDave wrote:<BR> <DIV>Over the course of several similar thread I've drawn the same comclusion that most others seem to be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ward is balanced fine for white mobs - even white grouped mobs at a pinch.  Ward loses all effectiveness against yellow and up or ^ and ^^ mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The theory/lore behind warding is interesting - an external invisible barrier to damage - great.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Unfortunately, gameplay-wise it just doesn't scale.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Effectively, Templar reactives (and Druid HoTs to a lesser extent) become <EM>more</EM> efficient and effective as teh mobs get tougher.  Wards do the opposite.  <EM>This</EM> is where the problem lies.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How do we make wards scalable?  Applying after mitigation would go a long way...</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I do not pretend that I have any kind of solution to the problem (if there is one?), but applying it after mitigation would possibly make us too powerfull against single++ mobs. Lets face it, with slow we are allready pretty well equipped to deal with these (at least at lvl 30). Remove AC mitigation and we migt be too good on these?</P> <P>Then again, I have nothing better to offer.<BR></P>

Myros
01-05-2005, 05:32 PM
<DIV>I dont get how you think adding AC mitigation would make us "to powerful" ... the other healing classes ALREADY have AC mitigation in their favor before they cast a spell. Add to this the fact their heals on a straight number basis are better than our wards (see post a few above for the numbers). All this would do would be to bring us up to parity with the others.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I see 2 options to give us a parity:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Add some kind of AC mitigation and leave the ward hp the same</DIV> <DIV>2. Increase the ward hp and leave the ward 0 AC.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Either of these 2 options would put us on somewhere approaching a level field but it would not in any way make us uber healers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Of course cutting in half the raw healing power of the other classes specialized heals would also bring us pretty close to equal ;p I hope thats not going to happen ... I dont want our class to be 'uber', but I do want to see a basic flaw corrected so that we can function in our intended role as efficiently as possible.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>M</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EDIT: here's the number again for refrence -</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Spectral Ward:  403 HP</DIV> <DIV>Regrowth:  480 HP</DIV> <DIV>Vitae:  510 HP</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But remeber that the ward isnt preventing 403hp of damage, because any decently equiped tank's armor will pretyy much half that number. So a 403hp ward will actualy only be "healing" 200hp of damage because thats all the damage that the tank would have recieved if the ward was not there. 403 is the percieved hp of a ward, 200 is the actual hp value of a ward.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ward: 200hp</DIV> <DIV>Regrowth: 480hp</DIV> <DIV>Vitae: 510hp</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Makes quite the difference when you look at it from what it actualy does rather than what we think it does.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by Myros on <span class=date_text>01-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:46 AM</span>

Merrygr
01-05-2005, 06:23 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Myros wrote:<BR> <DIV>I dont get how you think adding AC mitigation would make us "to powerful" ... the other healing classes ALREADY have AC mitigation in their favor before they cast a spell. Add to this the fact their heals on a straight number basis are better than our wards (see post a few above for the numbers). All this would do would be to bring us up to parity with the others.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I see 2 options to give us a parity:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Add some kind of AC mitigation and leave the ward hp the same</DIV> <DIV>2. Increase the ward hp and leave the ward 0 AC.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Either of these 2 options would put us on somewhere approaching a level field but it would not in any way make us uber healers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Of course cutting in half the raw healing power of the other classes specialized heals would also bring us pretty close to equal ;p I hope thats not going to happen ... I dont want our class to be 'uber', but I do want to see a basic flaw corrected so that we can function in our intended role as efficiently as possible.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>M</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EDIT: here's the number again for refrence -</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Spectral Ward:  403 HP</DIV> <DIV>Regrowth:  480 HP</DIV> <DIV>Vitae:  510 HP</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But remeber that the ward isnt preventing 403hp of damage, because any decently equiped tank's armor will pretyy much half that number. So a 403hp ward will actualy only be "healing" 200hp of damage because thats all the damage that the tank would have recieved if the ward was not there. 403 is the percieved hp of a ward, 200 is the actual hp value of a ward.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ward: 200hp</DIV> <DIV>Regrowth: 480hp</DIV> <DIV>Vitae: 510hp</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Makes quite the difference when you look at it from what it actualy does rather than what we think it does.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Myros on <SPAN class=date_text>01-05-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:46 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I have seen those numbers a lot, and I do understand them. I'm not convinced that those numbers tell the the full story though. The only thing that will prove to me the difference between a shaman/druid/cleric is if I get logs from identical fights. I want multiple logs from each type of fight and multiple types of fights. Is that doable, maybe not, but it is the only thing that will convince me for 100% sure.</P> <P>Having said that; I do believe that the ward is underpowered compared to the other special heals, but I have not seen conclusive proof either way.</P> <P>Given that I can, with the current ward, duo a yellow++ (melee type) mob together with a paladin I do think that adding full AC mitigation would make us too powerfull against that particualr type of mob. If it only means that we become as good as a cleric then they too are overpowered.</P> <P>Adding AC mitigation (full or partial) will likely put us on equal footing with other healers when fighting encounters with multiple mobs.</P> <P>Also, when throwing out numbers, make sure they are all correct. I have seen other numbers than the ones you listed and those other numbers shortens the gap between ward (full hp value of ward).</P> <P>In conclusion. I do believe that the ward is underpowered compared to what the druid and cleric has. I have however not seen conclusive proof that this is the case. I do not believe that there is a simple answer to the 'fix' for this problem.</P>

BigDa
01-05-2005, 06:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Myros wrote:<BR> <DIV>...</DIV> <DIV>EDIT: here's the number again for refrence -</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Spectral Ward:  403 HP</DIV> <DIV>Regrowth:  480 HP</DIV> <DIV>Vitae:  510 HP</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But remeber that the ward isnt preventing 403hp of damage, because any decently equiped tank's armor will pretyy much half that number. So a 403hp ward will actualy only be "healing" 200hp of damage because thats all the damage that the tank would have recieved if the ward was not there. 403 is the percieved hp of a ward, 200 is the actual hp value of a ward.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ward: 200hp</DIV> <DIV>Regrowth: 480hp</DIV> <DIV>Vitae: 510hp</DIV> <DIV>... <HR> </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>There's even more to consider.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let's include the effects of specials and ripostes.  Some estimated figures, here:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mob does (in first 30 seconds of fight) 200 damage through specials and ripostes.   400 'normal' damage.</DIV> <DIV>Ward absorbs 400, though mitigation would have made that 200, so effectively ward saves 200 damage.</DIV> <DIV>Unfortunately, specials and ripostes ignore the ward, so 200 goes through</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Net effect: ZERO</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

Banditman
01-05-2005, 07:53 PM
<DIV>Let me help here, Dave has an important point here that I followed but had to scratch my head on for a moment.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the first say 20 seconds of a fight a mob may have a complete damage potential of 600 points, divided up between special attacks and standard melee, with 200 being special, and 400 being standard.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A Shaman throws on his Ward, and it prevents all 400 points of damage that would have come from standard attacks, but the 200 points of special still gets thru and is mitigated by the tank's AC at 50%.  Net result:  55 Mana burned, -100 HP to tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A Cleric using Vitae counts on the tank to use his AC to mitigate all damage.  So, the Cleric has to deal with 300 points of damage to the tank.  Net result:  55 Mana burned, +210 HP to tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A Druid is a little different.  He has to really be on his toes.  I respect good Druids TREMENDOUSLY because they really have to plan ahead.  Anyway, they are dealing with the same thing as the Cleric.  In this case, they are cool.  Cast Regrowth which has (in 20 seconds) 360 points of healing.  Net result:  55 Mana burned, +60 HP to tank (with another 120 HP coming next tick).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As you can see, there is a significant difference between the net results of each class, with Wards coming out last.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Make sense ?</DIV>

Myros
01-05-2005, 08:07 PM
<DIV>Merrygrin ... the values of the 3 speciality heals have nothing whatsoever to do with the fight, the type of mobs, the amount of mobs etc. The values are fixed and unaffected wether you fight a lvl 1 mob or a lvl 50 mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They are affected by the casters lvl up to their max value. The numbers quoted were iirc taken from app III spells on lvl 20 healers of each class, it wont matter wether they fight 10 or 1000 mobs one at a time or all at once. The value for each heal will remain fixed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Obviously if we compared adept III spells on level 40 healers the numbers will be different but the basic concepts we are discussing should hold true. I'd like to see the same comparison made for all speciality heal spells all the way up to lvl 50 so we could have a more complete picture, so no the data isnt complete but the data that we do have is fairly solid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With our app III lvl 20 ward quoted at 403hp .... sad thing is this only is trully a 403hp ward if it is cast on a lvl 1 newbie wearing no armor <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>M</DIV>

Banditman
01-05-2005, 09:34 PM
<DIV>Here's a great test . . . .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Try to think of one situation, ONE, where a 403 point, pre-AC Ward is superior to either a 480 HP Regen over time or a 510 HP per melee strike heal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No other healers in group.  Just your friendly neighborhood Shaman.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>.</DIV> <DIV>.</DIV> <DIV>.</DIV> <DIV>.</DIV> <DIV>.</DIV> <DIV>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can't think of one single situation, can you?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

BigDa
01-05-2005, 10:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR> <DIV>Here's a great test . . . .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Try to think of one situation, ONE, where a 403 point, pre-AC Ward is superior to either a 480 HP Regen over time or a 510 HP per melee strike heal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No other healers in group.  Just your friendly neighborhood Shaman.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can't think of one single situation, can you?</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Hehe - just for fun, yes I can.  If <EM>you put the ward on before he pulls so you get the power back before the combat locks</EM>. Lol.  That's about it hehe.  You can nullify about 100hp damage per fight that way!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Does this make it good or even equal?  Er, no...  Does this ever happen?  Well, yes... if you have a pet tank who is coordinating combat through a headset!  hehe</DIV>

Banditman
01-05-2005, 10:50 PM
<DIV>I was actually thinking of the entire fight as opposed to a single trick.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Doesn't really apply tho, because Druids can apply their Regen pre-pull with the same effect.  Clerics too.</DIV>

grapenu
01-05-2005, 11:38 PM
<DIV>31.9 Mystic forum lurker here. Also have a 20 something defiler I havent played in a while. IMHO heres what needs to be done with wards:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>#1 Shamans AC should be the level of mitigation provided by the wards.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>#2 Specials should be blocked by the wards. If the specials damage exceeds the ward the ward should be dropped but the tank should not take the remaining damage(I think they let the specials through intentionally so we dont have the wards drop even faster then they already do creating an even bigger mystic frenzy). DoTs should be let through because a. We have several anti-DoT buffs and b. We should have some kind of weakness compared to the other healers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If these 2 options are unacceptable to SOE they're going to have to:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>#1 At least double the amount of unmitigated damage soaked by the wards. Or cut the mana cost in half and remove recast delay times.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>#2 Make slow unresistable. I can not be the only healer in a group unless slow lands. At least not with wards the way they are currently. Runnyeye mobs tear through my wards faster than tissue paper on a T-bone. Same thing with any mob giving decent group xp anywhere. At least slow makes our wards somewhat viable WHEN IT LANDS. If you are going to give us gimped special heals and balance it with our only good debuff you better make the debuff unresistable. I dont see tanks resisiting Reactives or Regens so why should mobs resist SOEs only possible justification for making wards so poor? Last night in RE I was having to cast slow more than 10 times in some fights against single mobs to get it to stick one time(adept 1 keening haze). This is not acceptable with our wards and direct heals being so poor. Luckily we had a inquisitor to keep the MT alive while I bounced slow off the mob over and over.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While they're at it they should fix the slow bug where it falls off with 20 seconds left every single time. Also lets see some adept 1 or master 1 wards drop someplace. I havent seen a single one for sale(or drop) since launch and having to fight every other person on the server for palladium or jasper for the only possible upgrade to my most important spell is LAME.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

disru
01-05-2005, 11:48 PM
Since some of you guys keep bringing up debuffs no matter how much I plead that they be left out of this discussion. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Here is a comparison of debuffs by subjob, I have included things like reverse damage shields because they are cast on opponents and also are related to the "overall" aspect of healing (e.g. mob dies faster so not as much healing needed). I did not include DOT's or DD's unless they had a debuff component as well or anything that debuffed just resists or movement speed:Mystic:1) -str, -sta2) -Atk speed, -Offensive skills3) AE -Atk speed4) AE -sta, -poison resist, - elemental resistDefiler:1) -str, -wis, -int2) -Atk speed, -str, -sta3) DOT, -sta4) DOT, -atk speed5) Reverse damage shield, Impairment that has a chance to ward an ally and deal damage when the opponent attacks an ally.Templar:1) AE -str2) -AC, -arcane resist3) Reverse damage shield, Impairment that has a chance to heal allies and increase AC when an ally attacks the opponent.4) Reverse damage shield, Impairment that has a chance to cure trauma and replenish health over time when an ally attacks.Inquisitor:1) AE -offensive skills2) -str, -int3) -AC, -elemental resist4) DOT, -str, -sta5) Reverse damage shield, Impairment that grants a chance to counterattack when the enemy successfully attacks an ally.6) Reverse damage shield, Impairment that deals instant Divine daamge when the enemy successfully attacks.Warden:1) -agi, -movement speedFury:1) -str, -wis2) -offensive skills, -agiAs you can see, clerics and shaman have a comparable ammount of debuff lines. Druids ,on the other hand, have very few; I feel they make up for this with a large variety of buffs, dots, damage shields, and the ability to nuke at a near-mage level.Edit: From what I gather, "decreases offensive skills" just means -slashing, -piercing, -crushing.<p>Message Edited by disrupt on <span class=date_text>01-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:52 AM</span>

Banditman
01-06-2005, 12:00 AM
<DIV>I would like to further add that at the present time all STA related debuffs are broken.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There were situations that allowed these debuffs to be used as super-nukes and stacked and were therefore removed.</DIV>

Merrygr
01-06-2005, 12:15 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR> <DIV>Here's a great test . . . .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Try to think of one situation, ONE, where a 403 point, pre-AC Ward is superior to either a 480 HP Regen over time or a 510 HP per melee strike heal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No other healers in group.  Just your friendly neighborhood Shaman.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>.</DIV> <DIV>.</DIV> <DIV>.</DIV> <DIV>.</DIV> <DIV>.</DIV> <DIV>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can't think of one single situation, can you?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Well, you made this one easy on me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Tank has 100 hp left and get hit for 120. Only the ward applied at the 100 hp instant will save him. Granted that is an stupid example, but with all the numbers thrown around here I can't help but think there has to be something we are not taking into account.</P> <P> Sorry, saw a later post where you said entire fight. No way for me to answer that since I have no clue how a cleric or druid plays </P> <P>The numbers shown here basically says that we use up twice as much power in any given fight compared to druids or clerics. Having no experience with clerics or druids myself I have no proof when I say that this just can't be correct, but if the difference was that big I would think it would have been noticed by the entire community and others would have chimed in. I base this on the numbers above where BoV and HoT are both 400+ (almost 500hp) and ward is 200 (based on no AC mitigation).</P> <P>So even though I agree that wards are likely underpowered I will maintain that I do not consider the numbers you all have provided to be the complete story. It just doesn't add up that we are using twice the power (or even more).</P><p>Message Edited by Merrygrin on <span class=date_text>01-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:16 PM</span>

Banditman
01-06-2005, 02:11 AM
<DIV> <DIV>No, we aren't using twice the power, because we do have some advantage in that in most cases our Wards are used completely, making them, for the most part, 100% mana efficient.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Example:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>When we Ward the tank pre-pull, we can pretty much rest assured that those Wards are gonna be blown down.  Period.  They are gonna be used up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, if  Druid casts his Regen pre-pull he is gonna lose a couple ticks in most cases while waiting on his mana to regen and the tank to actually "pull". </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A Cleric on the other hand will lose some healing by casting pre-pull when the average mob hit is less than the per tick heal.  So if a mob hits for 75 and the Reactive heals for 100 the Cleric loses 25 HP in healing because he can't heal "over" the max HP of the tank.  For a Cleric when the mob hits for more than his Reactive heals for, he is at 100% efficiency.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because of these "overheals", Druids and Clerics are not healing at 100% efficiency on a mana for mana comparison.  Granted, there are occasions when our Wards are not completely efficient either.  Once an encounter is over, any remaining Ward power is wasted.  Druids are the only ones who continue to get efficiency from their specialty heals after an encounter is over.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The discrepancy is still in AC mitigation mostly.  This is the big one that really makes Wards seem underpowered.  If Wards were moved to post mitigation you'd probably see an almost complete cease fire on complaints about the power of Wards.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>

Merrygr
01-06-2005, 03:48 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV>No, we aren't using twice the power, because we do have some advantage in that in most cases our Wards are used completely, making them, for the most part, 100% mana efficient.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Example:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>When we Ward the tank pre-pull, we can pretty much rest assured that those Wards are gonna be blown down.  Period.  They are gonna be used up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, if  Druid casts his Regen pre-pull he is gonna lose a couple ticks in most cases while waiting on his mana to regen and the tank to actually "pull". </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A Cleric on the other hand will lose some healing by casting pre-pull when the average mob hit is less than the per tick heal.  So if a mob hits for 75 and the Reactive heals for 100 the Cleric loses 25 HP in healing because he can't heal "over" the max HP of the tank.  For a Cleric when the mob hits for more than his Reactive heals for, he is at 100% efficiency.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because of these "overheals", Druids and Clerics are not healing at 100% efficiency on a mana for mana comparison.  Granted, there are occasions when our Wards are not completely efficient either.  Once an encounter is over, any remaining Ward power is wasted.  Druids are the only ones who continue to get efficiency from their specialty heals after an encounter is over.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The discrepancy is still in AC mitigation mostly.  This is the big one that really makes Wards seem underpowered.  If Wards were moved to post mitigation you'd probably see an almost complete cease fire on complaints about the power of Wards.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm sorry, but that example doesn't jive with me.</P> <P>If the pre pull spell is to be a measurable chunk of the power spent then the fight is trivial for any healer since we are only talking one or two more heals. If we use up our entire power bar then the pre pull spell is insignificant. Especially since most/all of that power is regened before the tank engages.</P> <P>I do buy in to the hp values of ward =  200 hp and BoV/HoT = 450 hp (aproximate numbers). Numbers are after AC mitigation on a plate tank.</P> <P>But if that is the only relevant number then we should be using a boat load more of power than the cleric/druid. Maybe we do. i don't know, but I doubt it.</P> <P>So I still think that we are missing a piece of the puzzle. It could be that the direct heals used in between makes up bit of the difference, but it seems that we would be using more of them too. Are they about the same power/hp ratio between the classes?</P>

Leji
01-06-2005, 04:25 AM
<DIV>If the healers were casting nothing else than their class specific heal, then the shamen would be using twice the mana the druids and clerics use. You could tell it easily by looking at the power bars at the end of the fights.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, in real battles, things are not that simple : all healers cast more than only his specific heal spell. The healers also debuffs, nuke, dot and cast direct heals.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At the end of a fight, a cleric will be roughly at the same state power wise as a shaman. Not because he's been spending as much power on reactive healing as we do on wards, but because the difference in power is used on other stuff : he will likely throw an extra nuke here and there since he can afford it for exemple.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the AC migitation is added to wards, the shamen will still be using about as much power as they do now, they just will allocate it to other spells, increasing their overall group effectiveness. Today you may not have the power to cast anything else than Wards, direct heals and Keening Haze when being single healer in Runny Eye, but if the AC mitigation was in, you could cast Anger of the Ancients a few times on top of all that.</DIV>

Mystiq
01-06-2005, 10:16 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lejina wrote:<BR> <DIV>If the healers were casting nothing else than their class specific heal, then the shamen would be using twice the mana the druids and clerics use. You could tell it easily by looking at the power bars at the end of the fights.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, in real battles, things are not that simple : all healers cast more than only his specific heal spell. The healers also debuffs, nuke, dot and cast direct heals.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At the end of a fight, a cleric will be roughly at the same state power wise as a shaman. Not because he's been spending as much power on reactive healing as we do on wards, but because the difference in power is used on other stuff : he will likely throw an extra nuke here and there since he can afford it for exemple.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Just a small note I wanna add here. I wouldn't be that quick to assume that all, most or even half of the clerics out there use nukes and/or debuffs on a regular basis, whether their power allows it or not. There are several reasons I guess, they don't wanna get aggro or don't wanna let their power get too low in the event the 'fit hits the shan', or they feel it doesn't help enough to bother. A lot of times healers will just sit on as much power as they can.  I myself am a fan of meleeing, because it uses no power serves as an extra DoT on the encounter basically, but I digress...</P> <P> </P>

Leji
01-06-2005, 11:33 PM
<DIV align=left>Well, if you and others are fine with sitting on a full power bar, that's your choice. Personally i chose to use as much of my power offensively so long as i evaluate that i'll still have enough to keep everyone alive in the group.</DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left>If you already stand on a full power bar because you like that safety net, well, to fix wards will do very little to you. Short of those events where you have people dying because you ran oom chain warding/healing.</DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left>For those of us who try to maximize our contribution to our groups, to have our wards mitigate the damage input accordingly to the tank's AC would mean more nukes, dots and debuffs, and they do make a difference enough to bother.</DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left>On top of all this, i melee pretty much all the time also myself. We are not losing anything from doing it, so why wouldn't a priest melee?</DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left>It's the smallest things that make the greatest didfferences.</DIV>

Banditman
01-07-2005, 02:18 AM
<DIV>A Priest has a number of reasons why he might choose not to melee.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Situational awareness is a big one.  I like to keep an eye out for potential adds.  If I'm up to my armpits in the trenches I might miss an incoming add that I could have seen, warned and kept my group out of the path of.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PB AE (non-frontal) are another.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aggro management is a third.  If I'm up in the melee and manage to draw aggro, it isn't as immediately obvious as it is if I'm standing back a little.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not saying that I don't ever melee.  I do on occasion.  However, I simply feel that the distraction of a huge melee in my face could cause a significant setback that is normally not worth it.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My job is to keep us alive, not kill our enemies.</DIV>

cas
01-08-2005, 12:02 AM
<DIV> <DIV>Banditman wrote</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here's a great test . . . .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Try to think of one situation, ONE, where a 403 point, pre-AC Ward is superior to either a 480 HP Regen over time or a 510 HP per melee strike heal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No other healers in group.  Just your friendly neighborhood Shaman.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>.</DIV> <DIV>.</DIV> <DIV>.</DIV> <DIV>.</DIV> <DIV>.</DIV> <DIV>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can't think of one single situation, can you?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>well yes I can</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mage grabs agro - druid cast regen mob I bet is hitting harder than the regen but tank will get control before it runs out.  Reactive heal again the war will get control back and basically a mage is unmitigated AC so mob will prolly be hitting for more than reactive.  Ward nullifies damage for a few seconds so tank can get control and mage doesnt fall low on life to add more agro for them selfs..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>say you got a Monk as main tank there dodge skills rock but have low AC mitigation hmm sounds like a good canditate for a ward..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>say your MT falls and the scouts got agro they have decent dodge but low AC mitigation hmm sounds like a good canditate for a ward..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>those sound like viable situations..  (how do you quote someone in this site)</DIV></DIV>

Banditman
01-08-2005, 12:48 AM
<DIV>Those situations a Ward may be better, but I don't think that they make it up to the "superior" level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As you said however, in those situations, any Priest can do the job.  They aren't "Superior".</DIV>

Wolft
01-08-2005, 01:15 AM
<DIV>I was in Stormhold the other day.  I (22 Mystic at the time) was the only healer in the group, except for out MT, a 24 Pally.  We were doing the aq3 quest, and fighting feign zombies (yellow^^).  I know there was one instance where as fast as my ward icon showed up on my list, it disappeared just as quick.  I can say it never lasted full duration, and most of the time was lasting in the neighborhood for 8-12 seconds.  I was using my debuff pretty much every fight, and slow some of the fights.  Personally, I don't notice too much of a difference with slow, but I'm still stuck with Wailing Haze.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, I was able to hold my own with these, and encounters we did later on against 3 orange mobs, or 4 yellow mobs, but that was with the Pally throwing in some of his minor heals here and there.  In these cases, I can't buy that debuffs and slows are part of our healing process.  There's no way I had enough time to get all 3 or 4 mobs debuffed and slowed, and ward/heal the tank and myself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Later, a templar joined the group and things were much smoother.  I let him be the main healer, and used my full array of debuffs, as well as slow and dot.  I could then back heal when necessary.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't want our class to become overpowered, but I do think there's some tweaking that needs to be done.  A ward lasting all of one second just doesn't cut it.</DIV>

Nnath
01-08-2005, 01:37 AM
<DIV> <P><SPAN>I think adding a portion (maybe 1/2 or 1/3) of the targets AC to the ward for mitigation would be reasonable.  Fully adding it would make wards too powerful compared to the other two spells.  Primarily because we can chain cast wards at a greater rate than a typical reactive or particularly a regen would be able to heal the target.  We should not be able to heal more damage than the other two types of spells over the same time period.  Remember, efficiency is not the only thing that balances spells.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>An exception to the above would be reactives in multiple creature encounters.  Reactive heals can be used up very quickly.  In these situations they function very similarly to wards, except with AC mitigation.  Unless they have a longer spell refresh timer, which I do not know the answer to.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>I also think that applying the mystics AC to the ward would make it too powerful in situations where it is already more useful than reactives or regens.  As mentioned above, basically any time a non AC tank is taking damage, wards are more useful than reactives or regens.</SPAN></P></DIV>

Myros
01-08-2005, 05:14 AM
<DIV>"non AC" tank ..uh hu. No such thing really, even a monk can have decent or even very good AC. My buffs alone can add 600+ AC to a grouped tank of any kind. So the AC mitigation factor is still very much a part of our equation regardless of tank type.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>M</DIV>

Darm
01-08-2005, 05:24 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wolftep wrote:<BR> <DIV>I was in Stormhold the other day.  I (22 Mystic at the time) was the only healer in the group, except for out MT, a 24 Pally.  We were doing the aq3 quest, and fighting feign zombies (yellow^^).  I know there was one instance where as fast as my ward icon showed up on my list, it disappeared just as quick.  I can say it never lasted full duration, and most of the time was lasting in the neighborhood for 8-12 seconds.  I was using my debuff pretty much every fight, and slow some of the fights.  Personally, I don't notice too much of a difference with slow, but I'm still stuck with Wailing Haze.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, I was able to hold my own with these, and encounters we did later on against 3 orange mobs, or 4 yellow mobs, but that was with the Pally throwing in some of his minor heals here and there.  In these cases, I can't buy that debuffs and slows are part of our healing process.  There's no way I had enough time to get all 3 or 4 mobs debuffed and slowed, and ward/heal the tank and myself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Later, a templar joined the group and things were much smoother.  I let him be the main healer, and used my full array of debuffs, as well as slow and dot.  I could then back heal when necessary.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't want our class to become overpowered, but I do think there's some tweaking that needs to be done.  A ward lasting all of one second just doesn't cut it.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I can only go on personal experience here, but when I did my AQ3, both me and the MT were level 21, and I had absolutely no issues keeping the group up as the sole healer.  Don't get me wrong, it doesn't jive with me that wards should be pre-mitigation either...I pesonally think mititgation should be a factor somehow...but I haven't experienced the "can't keep a group alive" problems or even the "totally out of power at the end of the fight" issues.  I did use my slow religiously (and always do except on blue solo mobs or less normally, they die too quick to a group).  No matter what the actual percentage of the slow, it is a must. </P> <P>Darmas</P>

Banditman
01-08-2005, 05:27 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nnathos wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P><SPAN>I think adding a portion (maybe 1/2 or 1/3) of the targets AC to the ward for mitigation would be reasonable.  Fully adding it would make wards too powerful compared to the other two spells.  </SPAN> <HR> </P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Could you please elaborate on this?  A Ward is already significantly less powerful in numeric value before AC mitigation is even considered.  I'm curious at how you arrived at this conclusion.</DIV>

disru
01-08-2005, 05:34 AM
Hell, I'd be happy if they mitigated at 30-40%. That would still put them way under the mitigation of a guardian (roughly 50%) but make them much more effective.

Ender
01-08-2005, 06:14 AM
If Sony was ever going to make changes to wards, it would've been in the current patch. However, Sony apparently believes that the wards are fine as is and do not have to be changed. I know I'm stating the obvious but I guess I have to.

disru
01-08-2005, 06:54 AM
There are alot of things that are still broken/bugged that were not included in the current patch.I remember in EQ1 some problems took years to fix...

Fel
01-08-2005, 10:03 PM
<DIV>Makes sense to me.  Lvl 38 Mystic and love my toon.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But the truth is the truth and the numbers dont lie.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Put me down on the yes wards are under powered list.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks for laying it out yet again Banditman.  </DIV>

disru
01-12-2005, 11:13 PM
These posts were taken from the shaman forum."By the numbers" part I and IIwritten by Banditman---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Part I---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------A numeric explanation of Shaman healing issues As a Shaman in EQLive, I was attracted to the opportunity presented by EQ2. Specifically, the promise that all members of the Priest Archtype would be able to function equally efficiently and effectively as a primary healer. Though EQLive certainly was no basis for a belief that Shaman would be accorded this ability, I felt that SOE being given the opportunity to re-evaluate, re-tune and "re-invent" the system, there should exist the possibility that three unique types of healer could all co-exist happily in EQ2. In the early levels, this certainly appears true. At all points up until L20, the three unique Priests all wield considerable and equitable power to keep a group alive. However, that appears to be slipping a bit as the levels go up. As Shaman have grown into their sub-classes and moved forward, increasing numbers of them have noted anecdotal evidence that suggested their Wards were not holding up as the mobs being faced increased in power. This evidence drove the desire to put some hard numbers and facts to the unique styles of healing possessed by each of the Priests in an effort to understand why Shaman were feeling the pinch to heal effectively and efficiently so strongly. Priest Healing, a numeric comparison. The facts as we understand them and observe them in game are as follows: Class Specific Heal Spells are the bread and butter of each Class of Priest. It is what makes each one unique, and it is here that the balance promised by the EQ2 Archtype system must be maintained. It appears that it is at this most basic level that things are breaking down. Consider just the most basic measure of a heal - the raw HP healed. Using App3 versions of Spectral Ward, Regrowth and Bestowal of Vitae yields the following raw HP respectively: 403, 480, 510. Of note, BoV can in fact "tick" one extra time, potentially putting the raw HP at 612, but for simplicity, we'll use the "low" end of Vitae. All other considerations aside, the Spectral Ward is already between 16 and 21 percent less powerful as a heal than the Heals possessed by the other Priest classes. Certainly, part of the balance equation at this level could be Power consumption of each heal, but in this case we don't have that. Each of these three heals uses exactly the same amount of power. Given that there is no difference in Power, we must look elsewhere for balance. The next part of the numeric analysis is overall effect. While it may be apparent already that Wards are underpowered, additional information regarding the application of Wards further defines the problem. Wards take effect before AC mitigation is considered. This can be a very significant difference. Parses suggest that a good tank can mitigate up to 50 percent of incoming damage with his armor. The already underpowered Ward is not given the benefit of this "free" healing. Any damage "healed" by a Ward is healed before the armor mitigation of the tank is considered. A 403 point hit against a Ward will completely eliminate the Ward. A 403 point hit against a Tank will result in only 202 points of damage against the health of a tank. Clerics and Druids are then healing the actual damage, and in effect healing only half the damage Shaman are being asked to heal. It would seem that in balancing the three heals, mitigation was somehow "forgotten" or ignored in the equation. That is a huge oversight. If you look at the efficiency of the three special heals at a zero AC mitigation level, things don't look so bad. BoV at 9.27 HP / Power has the highest efficiency simply because it has the highest raw value as shown above. Regrowth at 8.72 HP / Power is marginally below that yet Spectral Ward falls all the way to 7.33 HP / Power. That's really unbalanced enough to be unsettling already, but observe what happens as AC mitigation rears its head. At a level of 25 percent mitigation, which is probably the low end of the spectrum for a good tank, both BoV and Regrowth maintain their exact HP to Power ratios. Simply, these two heals are already allowing mitigation to kick in before they heal damage. Their efficiency is fixed. However, because of the way Wards are applied, their efficiency drops . . . significantly. At 25 percent mitigation, Spectral Ward's efficiency drops to 5.49 HP / Power - only 59 percent as efficient as BoV. That is more than significant, thats ridiculous. At a level of 50 percent mitigation, which seems to be the high end currently being parsed, Spectral Ward drops off to a paltry 3.65 HP / Power, putting it in the neighborhood of Minor Arch Healing from an efficiency standpoint. That is downright pathetic at 39 percent as efficient as BoV. Shaman Healing, numeric rebalancing options. It's pretty clear that some rebalancing is in order, and there are a number of methods that can be implemented to correct the current imbalances. Option 1. Inflate the raw value of Spectral Ward as a complete solution. This creates additional balancing dilemas. In order to balance efficiency, you would have to settle on a value for AC mitigation and hard cap it there, annoying every class that uses AC mitigation as a means of tanking. Assuming you did it, you'd probably settle between 25 and 50 percent, probably around 38 percent. At that level of mitigation, you'd need to put Spectral Ward at 683 HP in order to properly balance for efficiency and AC mitigation. Option 2. Move Wards to take effect after AC mitigation and slightly increase their raw value to be in line with the heals used by the other Priests. Placed after AC mitigation, and balanced between the Druid and Cleric HP to Power ratios, the raw value of Spectral Ward would need to be 495 HP. Sure, 92 HP is a pretty big bump, but it puts the efficiency at 9.00 HP per Power, which is dead in the middle of the Clerics and Druids.Obviously, Option 2 would be the easier to impliment and create far fewer ripples across the Classes. Option 1 is certainly viable, but it would probably need to be constantly monitored and rebalanced as the game evolves as any mitigation changes would then trickle directly down to Shaman. Summary Shaman simply want that which was promised: equality in healing. Right now, we certainly don't have it. Yes, we are still able to perform our primary responsibility, albiet with difficulty and little margin for error. Due to those current difficulties, Shaman are already becoming seen as "less" than a primary healer. Once the general impression of Shaman is "set" in the community mind, even greater adjustments will be necessary to change that perception. Let's not let it go that far. Fix it quickly, fix it properly, fix it evenly. Footnote: While the only thing I am showing numbers for here is Spectral Ward, this analysis should be applied to ALL of the Wards at all levels of the game.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Part II--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------By the Numbers part II - Removing the Haze Forward to battleMany still question the analysis of Wards. Some simply have an anecdotal view that "it seems fine to them". For those folks, great, if it works for you in the situations you find yourself in, be happy. However, the vast majority of folks I talk to have an real problem with the way Wards work. This is for you. The main arguement that you'll hear from the "it's fine" folks is that debuffing should be a part of the puzzle. For those folks, here are the numbers. This post is an analysis of debuffs. My two guinea pigs in this were a L27 Gul'Thex Mystic, solo con and a L31 Tallon Grunt, also solo con. I chose them in order to see the difference between a "challenging" mob - the Grunt - and a nearly trivial mob, the mystic. I am a L30 Mystic for frame of reference. I have all the logs for these encounters if anyone wishes to do their own leg work from them. Methodology My method of data collection was this: I pulled the mob first, using some sort of damage spell to lock the encounter. I then did nothing but heal myself while allowing the mob to burn up all of it's power. Mobs don't regen power. Once it's gone, it's gone. After they burned their power, I put a note in the log and let the mob continue to beat on me for a time with only it's standard melee attack. This gave me a baseline of how the mob performed with only it's melee attack. Since this is the attack Slow is meant to affect, that's the baseline I needed. Once I had my baseline, I tested Slow. I cast the spell and kept it refreshed in such a way that it never fell off, allowing the mob 3 or more minutes to beat on me. If Wailing Haze was stick-able, I tested it first then did Keening Haze. After those were done I allowed it to wear off and went thru the same process with Delusion. To the data! Trivial Mobs - a Gul'Thex Mystic Against a trivial mob, I was able to get larger blocks of time in each test since the mob was not pushing hard on my mana pool. All of my data sets on this mob are 5 minutes or more, with the melee baseline being the largest at 8:34. During the phase of testing where the Gul'Thex Mystic (GTM from now on) had power, he was doing a whopping total of 7.76 DPS. Not terribly impressive, but I expected this against a trivial mob. What was surprising however is where that damage came from. I had always believed that the greater portion of damage came from the standard melee attacks of the mob. In many of my posts here, I use 1/3 Special and 2/3 standard as my baseline. As I came to see, this is not the case at all. In fact, what I saw was just the opposite. Almost 2/3 (63.9% in the case of the GTM) of the damage done by a mob is in fact the "Special" attacks. But there's more to learn! Once the mob was out of power I began my baseline for melee damage. I let the mob beat on me for 8:34 just healing the damage as I needed to. He took 199 swings at me, 93 hits and 106 misses for a hit percentage of 46.7 percent. He swung once every 2.6 seconds and had an average damage of 30 Hit Points. Then the fun started. Since the GTM was less than L30 I could test Wailing Haze on him. So I did. I maintained this for 7:26 since there was no real threat to me. This time the mob took 148 swings at me, 76 hits and 72 misses for a hit percentage of 51.4 percent. As expected, he swung less often, dropping to one swing every 3 seconds with an average damage of 31 Hit Points. Quick math there shows that Wailing Haze is approximately a 15% Slow. Sounds reasonable to me. However, when I applied Keening Haze, I was in for a pretty big shock. A number of them actually. This time I ran the data for 6:10 seconds, mainly due to boredom. The mob took 122 swings at me, with 4 hits and 118 misses. No, that isn't a typo. Remember, the description of Keening Haze says that it also debuffs the mobs offensive capabilities. I was definitely seeing that here. However, that wasn't the most shocking part. Those swings worked out to one swing every 3 seconds . . . exactly the same as Wailing Haze! There is NO difference in Slow percentage between the spells! My final test for this mob was Delusion. This one I ran for 5:07 . . . I was really bored by this time. The mob took 119 swings, 47 hits and 72 misses for a hit percentage of 39.5 percent. He went back to the 1 swing every 2.6 seconds that I expected, and his average damage went to 29. While I know Delusion isn't debuffing offense for the mob, it is debuffing Strength, which shifted the damage table lower. We don't see this in the average hit because of the way Everquest handles "misses". A "hit" that does zero damage is reported by EQ as a "miss". So, Delusion definitely had an impact on the damage table, shifting it down and creating more zero damage hits, lowering the hit percentage compared to the baseline. Trivial mobs Summary Against trivial mobs, Keening Haze is a back breaker. It can totally castrate an encounter not because the Slow percentage is so high, but because of the other debuff laid against the mob. I don't think that's a game breaking deal. Even without KH, the GTM was no threat to me. Obviously, as I had him locked for nearly 30 minutes running tests and never even approached being OOM. Wailing Haze at 15% seems about right. Noticeable, but not overpowering by any means. Delusion has a statistically significant effect on mobs at this con level. Challenging mobs - A Tallon Grunt Against this more challenging mob, I was forced by my mana pool to cut my samples shorter. This mob was a threat to me and I was forced to keep my eyes on things to avoid debt. During the initial phase while the Tallon Grunt (TG from now on) had power, he was hitting hard at 18.04 DPS. It took a very nervous 2:09 to run him out of power. Interestingly, the TG also served to destroy my pre-testing assumption of 2/3 damage coming from standard melee. This mob used Barrage, Crushing Blow and Wild Swing in addition to his standard melee attack. While he had power, 63.5 percent of his total damage came from Special Attacks. Given the previous experience with the GTM I now feel pretty good about saying that in almost every case, at least 60 percent of a mobs total damage output will come from Special Attacks.I did manage to survive running mob out of power and commenced to getting my baseline of melee damage. This phase ran 4:10 seconds long. The mob swung a total of 96 times with 72 hits and 24 misses, for a hit percentage of 75 percent. This guy definitely had my number. His average hit was 45 Hit Points and he swung once every 2.6 seconds. Since Wailing Haze would not stick on the TG, I went immediately to Keening Haze. I kept this on him constantly for 3:29. There were a total of 70 swings, 38 hits and 32 misses for a hit percentage of 54.3 percent. I could definitely tell a difference in how often he was able to hit me just anecdotally in game. He dropped back to one swing every 3.0 seconds, telling me that the level of the mob does not affect the percentage of the Slow. It stayed at 15%. His average hit in this phase was 51 Hit Points. Delusion made me really nervous. This phase lasted 3:03 and at the end of it I was gasping for power. The mob took a total of 72 swings in this phase with 45 hits and 27 misses for a hit percentage of 62.5 percent. While I could tell a difference in how often I got hit, it certainly wasn't as strong as Keening Haze. His average hit in this phase was 46 Hit Points. Challenging mobs Summary Against non-trivial mobs, Keening Haze is certainly no back breaker. It is helpful, but in the face of all the other damage coming in, is probably not vital part of the puzzle. Will I keep casting KH? Absolutely. I have the spell and will use all tools at my disposal. Delusion was even less effective against this mob, as would be expected. Conclusions Wailing Haze is pretty much as we all expected. A low level spell with noticeable but by no means powerful effects. It can help a borderline situation, but it won't allow you to do things that you wouldn't normally do otherwise. No real surprises for me on this spell. Bottom Line, Wailing Haze is a 15% Slow. Keening Haze is faily complex. The fact that it debuffs not only the attack speed, but the attack rating of the mob was highlighted in neon by the test against the trivial GTM. Against the TG, Keening Haze was less flashy but still noticeable and worthwhile. Its a 15% Slow with an ATK debuff. In the analysis against the TG, Keening Haze basically knocked off 28 percent of the mobs raw melee DPS. Remember - just standard melee, it does nothing for Specials. Delusion is basically just a shift in the damage tables that we see as an increased number of "misses" in game due to the way Everquest handles zero damage hits. It has a noteable effect, but not at the level Keening Haze does. It too works only against the melee portion of a mobs damage output. The most stunning fact, for me personally, was the illustration of how much damage is actually coming from those Special Attacks and Combat Arts. I would certainly never have expected to see 60 percent damage coming from those. Going back to my 1000 points of raw damage (you guys know I love that number). It is now clear that 600 points of that damage is untouchable by our debuffs. By casting two spells, Keening Haze and Delusion, we can decrease the other portion by about 34 percent. So, by debuffing that 1000 points of damage, we still have 864 points of damage left to deal with. And remember, that can only be true when the mob doesn't resist, when debuffs land before the mob damages anyone and, most importantly, when there is ONLY ONE MOB. The whole thing falls apart when ANY of those conditions are false. Given the design fundamentals of EQ2, you may easily conclude that those conditions are unlikely hold true in many encounters. Debuffs are not the answer.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Thanks Banditman for putting these together.

Hadji
01-12-2005, 11:53 PM
<DIV><FONT size=2>Wow, great job.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>I am surprised that the slow stays the same percentage, and it was good to see that the stacking of Keening Haze and Delusion reduce melee amount by about 34%.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>The damage percentage on the special attacks just validates the increasing need for an illusionist/type (poweer sucking)group member as you fight tougher and tougher foes.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>/Salute to the good work.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Frellya</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>36 Mystic - 16 Outfitter</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Neriak</FONT></DIV>

Banditman
01-13-2005, 12:01 AM
<DIV>It is possible that the Slow percentage may change with different levels, ie App II vs Adept I (I have Adept I of both) . . . but I really really doubt it.</DIV>

disru
01-29-2005, 04:41 AM
Source: <a href="http://eq2vault.ign.com/View.php?view=asksoe.Detail&category_select_id=36" target="_blank">EQ2Vault</a>Sassee: Are more spells planned to be included in the game anytime soon, including fluff spells, that reflect many of the most liked spells from EQ or just in general? Examples: levitate; summon weapons, armor, gear; cannibalize; summon hybrid elementals. (Question originally submitted by Loki_d20)Steve "Moorgard" Danuser: Spells and arts will definitely be added as we continue to expand the game. <b>Right now we're in the process of evaluating existing spells and combat arts for purposes of balance and class utility</b>, so we don't plan to add a lot of new stuff until those steps are complete. Some future spells may indeed bring back some of the flavor of EQ, but our goal is not to duplicate every spell or effect used in the original game.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------*crosses fingers*<p>Message Edited by disrupt on <span class=date_text>01-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:43 PM</span>

Xalibur
01-30-2005, 08:05 AM
<DIV>Our ward problem will continue to develop.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was thinking about why lvl 20 seems to be a breaking lvl for the different priests classes efficiency.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Fact is, at lvl 20 levling slows down abit, giving ppl more time to care for gear.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Being LVL 20 there are armorquests to do.that greatly improves the gear of most players.This means on tanks: Better equipment => higher defence => more mitigation</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(also having decent armor isnt that important before lvl 20)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-But here comes the most important part, noone has stated yet (its about mitigation, but how it will be even worse in the "endgame":</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As playerswill get better and better equipment and better mitigation, our wards always have the same hitpoints. (sure you can say, "you can upgrade your wards", but the other priest classes can do that do with their healing spells and theygot the also the benefit of better geared tanks).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A short expample that should make this quite clear:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- note: in the example all healers (druid, cleric, shaman) got the best available lvl (master) for their spells.</DIV> <DIV>- note: the example is for a lvl 50 player, but similar things can be found for our lower lvl spells too. </DIV> <DIV>- note: all classes can upgrade their spells, not only shamans..(for our "you have to upgrade your spells" ppl)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Take a look at a lvl 50 player. While he has gotten all his abilities/spells (after some time) he will get continue to get new loot, and theirfore increase his/her mitigation and raising the AC continiously. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The shamans ward will  (once upgraded to master level)  continue to absord the same amount of damage. There wont be an increase of the wards "power" due to any new loot that may be available, while clerics and druids will get the benefit of the tanks better equipment and higher mitigation and that causing less damage needed to be healed.The shaman wont get that benefit as the AC is not taken into account for wards. </DIV> <DIV>Devs will soon face a real big problem. Either they are adjusting wards every few weeks to match the better mitigation of tanks (so shaman "can stay"(they are already a bit of..)  in line with the other healers, or the will have to include the mitigation aspects of the wards target in some way.</DIV> <DIV>If they want to adjust it, where do they want to put it ? take the mitigation of a uberguild tank ? take the mitigation of the slacker tank ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That whole thing rings a bell with magicians from eq1. While mages (petclass in eq1) have been in the begining for eq1 a good class due to their tank-pet being a real good one (compared to the player-tanks), the players got with time more and more loot, enchancing their characters, while the mage pet stayed (for 3 years!) on the same lvl. (This problem was never really fixed, but its similar to the problem the shamans are facing in eq2 - good at lvl 10...the better geared the ppl are, the more inefficient we are)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- btw: the mitigation numbers you are making of are - at least from my experience - to low. I find myself often hit for 150, when my ward would get hit for over 300. (mitigation should be tested, we got a few ppl here that like playing with numbers)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Banditman
01-31-2005, 09:19 PM
<DIV>Mitigation has already been tested.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shaman can mitigate at 50% pretty easily.  We would of course hope that Guardians are at least at 50%, and probably higher.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only way you can ever balance Wards against the other Priest heals is by putting them at the mitigation level of the tank they are cast on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Simply buffing them up in raw value without taking mitigation is only going to work for a short time before it will be outdated.</DIV>

Karla
01-31-2005, 10:36 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Merrygrin wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR> <DIV>Here's a great test . . . .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Try to think of one situation, ONE, where a 403 point, pre-AC Ward is superior to either a 480 HP Regen over time or a 510 HP per melee strike heal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No other healers in group.  Just your friendly neighborhood Shaman.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>.</DIV> <DIV>.</DIV> <DIV>.</DIV> <DIV>.</DIV> <DIV>.</DIV> <DIV>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can't think of one single situation, can you?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Well, you made this one easy on me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Tank has 100 hp left and get hit for 120. Only the ward applied at the 100 hp instant will save him. Granted that is an stupid example, but with all the numbers thrown around here I can't help but think there has to be something we are not taking into account.</P> <P> Sorry, saw a later post where you said entire fight. No way for me to answer that since I have no clue how a cleric or druid plays </P> <P>The numbers shown here basically says that we use up twice as much power in any given fight compared to druids or clerics. Having no experience with clerics or druids myself I have no proof when I say that this just can't be correct, but if the difference was that big I would think it would have been noticed by the entire community and others would have chimed in. I base this on the numbers above where BoV and HoT are both 400+ (almost 500hp) and ward is 200 (based on no AC mitigation).</P> <P>So even though I agree that wards are likely underpowered I will maintain that I do not consider the numbers you all have provided to be the complete story. It just doesn't add up that we are using twice the power (or even more).</P> <P>Message Edited by Merrygrin on <SPAN class=date_text>01-05-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:16 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>unless that 120 is a special attack then the tank is dead.<BR>

Karla
01-31-2005, 10:39 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Merrygrin wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV>No, we aren't using twice the power, because we do have some advantage in that in most cases our Wards are used completely, making them, for the most part, 100% mana efficient.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Example:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>When we Ward the tank pre-pull, we can pretty much rest assured that those Wards are gonna be blown down.  Period.  They are gonna be used up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, if  Druid casts his Regen pre-pull he is gonna lose a couple ticks in most cases while waiting on his mana to regen and the tank to actually "pull". </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A Cleric on the other hand will lose some healing by casting pre-pull when the average mob hit is less than the per tick heal.  So if a mob hits for 75 and the Reactive heals for 100 the Cleric loses 25 HP in healing because he can't heal "over" the max HP of the tank.  For a Cleric when the mob hits for more than his Reactive heals for, he is at 100% efficiency.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because of these "overheals", Druids and Clerics are not healing at 100% efficiency on a mana for mana comparison.  Granted, there are occasions when our Wards are not completely efficient either.  Once an encounter is over, any remaining Ward power is wasted.  Druids are the only ones who continue to get efficiency from their specialty heals after an encounter is over.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The discrepancy is still in AC mitigation mostly.  This is the big one that really makes Wards seem underpowered.  If Wards were moved to post mitigation you'd probably see an almost complete cease fire on complaints about the power of Wards.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm sorry, but that example doesn't jive with me.</P> <P>If the pre pull spell is to be a measurable chunk of the power spent then the fight is trivial for any healer since we are only talking one or two more heals. If we use up our entire power bar then the pre pull spell is insignificant. Especially since most/all of that power is regened before the tank engages.</P> <P>I do buy in to the hp values of ward =  200 hp and BoV/HoT = 450 hp (aproximate numbers). Numbers are after AC mitigation on a plate tank.</P> <P>But if that is the only relevant number then we should be using a boat load more of power than the cleric/druid. Maybe we do. i don't know, but I doubt it.</P> <P>So I still think that we are missing a piece of the puzzle. It could be that the direct heals used in between makes up bit of the difference, but it seems that we would be using more of them too. Are they about the same power/hp ratio between the classes?</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Missing piece:  Numbers are not 100% right as they are best of my memory.  24 shaman, 24 druid.  i have them both.   My mystic usually goes down to 15-20% mana on every fight of giants.  My druid goes down to about 50% on every fight of giants, sometimes less.  but not usually.  The reason?  AC!

Vates_Sac
02-01-2005, 07:05 PM
<DIV>Well the way I see it is no matter how much mana each class has, everyone plays differently.  So one person can come out with alot of mana, and someone could come out with none, its when the entire population starts to complain about we dont have enough mana to complete our goal.  I have no problems with wards, I find them very effective, but something that would help, is just like how the spells recharge, give us a button that gives us a way of seeing how much power the ward has left, not time, how much more damage can it take before it takes off.  That would be a great bonus.</DIV>

Banditman
02-01-2005, 09:04 PM
<DIV>Wow.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just parsed a raid from over the weekend.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cauldron Hollow, Descendant of the Torig encounter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Only twice in the very short (30 second) lifespan of our L36 Guardian tank did a Ward absorb so much as all the damage from one blow.  Combination of WSS and AW Ad3.  Once, AW Ad3 absorbed an entire blow with 154 HP remaining.  Once, WSS absorbed an entire blow with 8 HP remaining (the 1100+ HP Harm Touch that took the remaining 8 HP was like adding insult to injury).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Are Wards underpowered?  When fighting mobs of an equivalent level, I'd say a Ward should be able to take more than one blow.  I mean seriously!  One blow knocking down a Ward and passing additional damage on to the tank?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Gah.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Banditman on <span class=date_text>02-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:05 AM</span>

Melamp
02-02-2005, 06:25 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR> <DIV>Wow.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just parsed a raid from over the weekend.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cauldron Hollow, Descendant of the Torig encounter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Only twice in the very short (30 second) lifespan of our L36 Guardian tank did a Ward absorb so much as all the damage from one blow.  Message Edited by Banditman on <SPAN class=date_text>02-01-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:05 AM</SPAN><BR></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>well the problem again lies in the bigger raids....ward do not scale as well as I wish they would.</P> <P>when a ward aborbs 1400 damage unmitigated, but the mob hits for 4k+ you see that the higher lvl you are the less appealing wards are.</P> <P>And the more AC a tank has, the less efficient a ward is.</P> <P>With this patch im anxious to see if the AC change is just cosmetic...otherwise 5000ac mystic I should rock xping.</P> <P><BR> </P> <p>Message Edited by Melampus on <span class=date_text>02-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:26 PM</span>

Mystiq
02-02-2005, 07:13 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Melampus wrote:<BR> <P>With this patch im anxious to see if the AC change is just cosmetic...otherwise 5000ac mystic I should rock xping.</P> <P><BR> Message Edited by Melampus on <SPAN class=date_text>02-01-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:26 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The AC change from the patch is indeed cosmetic, as they said it would be. Whatever mobs you were able to kill before, you'll have the same exact result post patch. The new AC value is supposed to give you a better "idea" of what your actual defense is, all things considered, where i guess it wasn't as acurate before. I would take the change with a grain of salt really, and relate past experiences to the current AC value, as opposed to looking for any future change.</P> <P><BR> </P> <DIV> </DIV>

Melamp
02-02-2005, 01:51 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eloora wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P> The new AC value is supposed to give you a better "idea" of what your actual defense is, all things considered, where i guess it wasn't as acurate before </P> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>yeah, problem is ac is a cosmetic number anyway in the sense that they could have made the top tank ac 200 and casters 80 and the only thing ac number would mean is the relevence in relation to others. I don't care what my ac rating is as long as it's relative to other medium class wearers.</DIV>

ReubinLe
02-04-2005, 11:18 PM
<DIV>Something that was in beta that I liked about wards was that when you casted a new ward on someone and their was still hp on the old ward, the amount remaining on the ward would heal that person. At higher levels, our ward descriptions say that...but don't actually do what their description says. Also, wards drop extremely quick when the mob you're fighting still has power due to specials being used(and especially vs dots our wards completely ignoring them). Perhaps if they added a small heal component to the beginning of wards, or, a heal component at the end of them(like when they drop, or a new ward overwrites one), it might put our wards in line with other healers 'special' heals.</DIV><p>Message Edited by ReubinLeaf on <span class=date_text>02-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:30 AM</span>