Warden in MT grp

[Hanzz00]

<div>I've read in warden channel that some warden are put in caster group and that a fury is put in the MT group instead. I think warden have to be in the mt group. In the caster group i would feel kind of worthless. I've made a litttle comparison between warden and fury how they are atm.</div><div>First of all: Warden have 3 heals that are raidwide Furys have their Bitf so they can heal the mt better while nor beeing in the same group. (to succesfully cast Tranquility without being in the same group like the person you want to cure (which mostly is the mt) is just luck, because you don't see the effects on the tank)</div><div>-Benediction of the Wild buffs Agi and Wis - the Fury's equivalent Int + Wis so agi is better for mt grp and int for caster grp.</div><div>-The instinct spell line provides the mt benefits to combat skills, which is good against the negative effects of their defense stance. (Agitate is nice too, but does not increase the tank's chance to hit the mob)</div><div>-Warden buff very nice resists:</div><div>         -+109wis through Aspect of the Hawk(M1) --> 327 against all magical damage (here the Fury buffs +int, which is not usefull in the mt grp)</div><div>         -+66wis through Benediction(A3) -->198 against all magical damage</div><div>         -Protection of the Oak(A3) -->214 against all magical damage (here the Fury buffs in-combat-health regenaration.)</div><div>         *calculating* ...... 739 against all magical damage</div><div>-Spores provide a nice chance of healing the tank</div><div>-Sandstorm becomes pretty useless for raids =(</div><div>-Exhaltation of the Untamed is nice for heat/cold mobs , Bestial feast is not that important in raids imo.</div><div>-Porcupine is nice, but only for 36s and the fury is stunned during this time.</div><div> </div><div>All in all Fury is the best choice to be in caster or maybe in melee dps groups, they provide int to casters and bonus damage to melees. Warden buff resist, have got a healing proc for the tank, can cast an elemental ward and increase the combat skills of the mt.</div><div>I post this, because as I read that some of you have to be in the caster group while the fury is in the mt group, I was on raid and imagined how it would be, if I were not in the mt grp. So I hope the arguments I listed up help you convincing your raidleaders to put you in the mt grp.</div>

[mikemcmodmi]

<div></div><p>Yea, don't want to say too much but int can help hold aggro.  It can increase the combat damage of the MT.  As for furies being in the caster group, well why?  Casters buff a bit of intelligence for group themselves, besides locks and conjs, so a self respecting mage can usually get to cap without a fury.  After cap there's no point in adding even 1 point of intelligence, there's no benefit.  Besides, no mater what shamans say they can't keep a group up worth a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] so healing a shot of aoe isn't their forte.</p><p>I believe the reason for putting a fury over a warden in the MT group is for rough pulls where you'd like to have some extra mitigation on the MT.  A lof of people have called this method like 'training wheels' for raids as they build, personally I think a Warden should be in the MT group as well if you need elemental resists plus the pure healing power we provide, not buffs... because our buffs are [Removed for Content].</p><p>Either that or have no druid period in the MT group which is where some have gone.  If the mob's hitting for 7k then having 12k vs 10k hps can make a big difference and help him survive 2 shots from the mob if they're close together.   Having a little more resists (600 across the board) just wasn't cutting the hit down enough to survive 2 hits during the spam healing scramble.</p>

[Kassanthala]

<div></div>a good raid leader is gonna look at what kind of damage the mob is doing and change out healers ( or other classes ) based upon that also. I'm not always in MT group but I get put in when we are up against heat/cold damaging mobs. It's a handy dandy tool that allows raid leader to switch people from group to group through the raid window <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Formangenavn]

<div></div><div>I think it is very important that this is beeing looked at. You have a good list there HanzzOO, but I think you are missing a few things.</div><div> </div><div>Warden buffs (only mentioning what is different):</div><div> </div><div>Spirit of the oak: +188 to all resists</div><div>Benediction: Wis 75, Agi 75</div><div>Aspect of the hawk: Single target Wis 108</div><div>Natural Instinct: Single target Offencive skill +52</div><div> </div><div>Fury:</div><div> </div><div>Ferine mask: 62 hp/tick</div><div>Primal spirit: Wis 75, Int 75</div><div>Ferine Vim: Single target Int 108</div><div>Primal Fury: Single target Str 67, Agi 67, Haste dps proc 50%</div><div> </div><div>So we are better at buffing resists, wis (and therfore more resists), and a little bit of agi but only by 8 points so pretty much equal. Furys have int and str. Str is usefull for MT since they usually cap sta. What I find interesting though is that according to my calculations from this post (<a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=16&message.id=14005">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=16&message.id=14005</a>) I would say the healing from Ferine mask is more or less half what I would suspect Tranquilizing Spores would give us vs a mob hitting every 2 sec. In many ways the healin from Ferine is actually better then Tranquilizing, since you can actually count on it working at al times.</div><div> </div><div>I have no idea what is better, Warden or Fury offencive buff, but with Str buff I would not say Fury was falling behin in usefullness. So there you have it. What does resists do? Be couse that is our only edge as far as I can see.</div><div> </div><div>See this thread for buffs: <a target="_blank" href="http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y53/Eirgorn/PriestBuffs.gif">http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y53/Eirgorn/PriestBuffs.gif</a></div><div> </div><div>EDIT: I did not actually mean that Tranquilizing Spores is a bad spell, but on raid, the heal it does is marginal at best. It will never make or breake a raid.</div><p>Message Edited by Formangenavn on <span class="date_text">03-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:42 PM</span></p>

[mikemcmodmi]

<div></div><div></div><p>Well those are nice numbers, but in the big picture I'd take spores over the fury buff anyday.  50 healing every 5 secs blows.  Spores usually... well usually... kicks in when you need it because the tank is getting hit more often.</p><p>I'm raid leader in my guild and I keep trying to take myself out of G1 but haven't really been able to on the count of our tank keeps dying.  Maybe our other G1 healers are just lazy, i donno, but the main reason to have a warden in G1 from what I can see is cures.   Temps and shamans have looooong casting spells and never seem to be able to cure as well as a I can.  Before in T6 there was always one thing I couldn't cure on the MT but tranquility in theory should work (but the casting time makes it [Removed for Content]), and I haven't seen anything like that in T7 yet.  Maybe it's not there, I donno.  No more uncurable to Druid stuns..... I'd be in heaven.</p><p>As a caveat on the dying thing I usually only take myself out of G1 when we're doing an easy mob with an aoe so I can heal the melee to ignore it (makes the fight go lots faster) or if it's a harder mob and we need hps.  Sometimes I try to take myself out of G1 in new situations to try something different, but the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] tank keeps dying.</p><p>Btw, who does curing in G1 in your guilds?</p><p>Mayi - Lords of Chaos</p><p>Edited because I felt like it</p><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class="date_text">03-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:19 AM</span></p>

[Barand]

In does always put myself too in MT group for same reason. Maybe our fury is too lazy too <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.As for curing the faster does. Most of the time i do it, but i always ask other priest to watch it because if 2 or 3 effect appear they have to be cured immediatly (and no tranquility is not option in raid <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ).<div></div>

[Formangenavn]

<div></div><p>I am glad to hear you are good at playing you class mike (not beeing condescending here). The problem here however is not weither you should be in MT grp. You might very well be the best choice for a druid in MT grp in you guild. It has everything to do with spell quality and the person playing the toon.</p><p>The problem is we can not have a game balanced by how well the persons is playing his/her class. We have to have classes balanced vs the content and eatch other.</p>

[mikemcmodmi]

<div></div>Err, you're missing the point.  With the longer cast times of clerics and shamans, a Warden in good to put in G1 because they can keep the tank clean of all the debuffs.  A shaman or cleric can't do it as well.  The strength of putting a fury in G1 is their 30 sec stun mitigation buff, which is a stun.  They wouldn't be able to cure.

[Barand]

I agree and thats why tranquility was a good idea for us. But the long casting time make it really useless. In our first pull in lab yesterday i forgot to mention the cure and realise that the trauma cure was not on his usual hotkey, it was a disaster lol, just like when you do not cure in hof. Tank drop in 2s if it is not cure. Everytime i see a debuff i jump to stop casting and cure it (or wait if it is the quick heal). And most of the time the tank start droping into orange when the cure goes. If i had to cast tranquility there the tank would either die or the effect be cured by another priest.<div></div>

[Formangenavn]

<div></div><p>I didnt know clerics and shaman had longer cast time on their cures. I realy though they were all the same. You sure about that?</p><p>Anyway, we are no competing with shammys and clerics for MT grp, we are competing with furys for that spot, or a raid spot for that matter. As I have said before, I do not care which grp I am in on raid, but it would be nice to bring something that another healer could not do better and since we "supposedly" are the defencive druid, MT grp should be the place.</p>

[mikemcmodmi]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><p>I'm talkign about the cast time on direct heals between Wardens and clerics and shamans here.  They have longer cast times so they have to either not cast certain spells to cure or leave debuffs on the MT.</p><p>This thread is about whether a Warden should go into g1.  What I'm saying is hands down a Warden should be in G1.  You can argue that our buffs aren't that much better then a furies, but if you take away porcupine from furies because they can't cure while it's up then wardens have hands down better defensive buffs as is.  You can argue that our buffs need to be improved, I won't argue against that but as is a Warden should go into G1 unless you need lots of hps.  Our added resists aren't much either, but they do make a difference.</p><p><span class="time_text">Oh another thing.  Furies have 3 direct heals with bitf and have less downtime to cure as well.  Having 2 more powerful heals works to our advantage for cures.</span></p><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class="date_text">03-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:38 AM</span></p>

[bluejello]

I think a lot of wardens (and other classes) would sleep better at night if they would stop stressing so much about who goes in the MT group. Sometimes it looks like a bunch of kids arguing over who gets to sit at the cool table in a high school lunchroom.It doesn't matter which group you're in, you're just as important because I don't think any MT groups clear all the x4 raid bosses without the help of 3 other groups.<div></div>

[Formangenavn]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>mikemcmodmike wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><p>I'm talkign about the cast time on direct heals between Wardens and clerics and shamans here.  They have longer cast times so they have to either not cast certain spells to cure or leave debuffs on the MT. <font color="#66ff00">Jump to break cast FTW</font></p><p>This thread is about whether a Warden should go into g1.  <font color="#66ff00">I do not see it that way, it might just be me. This thread is about who should be in MT grp, Warden or Fury. Everyone knows you should have one cleric, one shaman and one druid in mt grp. </font>What I'm saying is hands down a Warden should be in G1.  You can argue that our buffs aren't that much better then a furies, but if you take away porcupine from furies because they can't cure while it's up then wardens have hands down better defensive buffs as is <font color="#66ff00">Hands down? plz name them</font>.  You can argue that our buffs need to be improved, I won't argue against that but as is a Warden should go into G1 unless you need lots of hps.  Our added resists aren't much either, but they do make a difference. <font color="#66ff00">If tank is not capped.</font></p><p><span class="time_text">Oh another thing.  Furies have 3 direct heals with bitf and have less downtime to cure as well.  Having 2 more powerful heals works to our advantage for cures. <font color="#66ff00">MT healers are there for their buffs, well and for cure and in grp heals. Yes they should DH also, but so can every other healer in the raid. I am unsure what you mean by less downtime. If you want to heal as much as possible you will have 0.5 sec downtime and 2.5 sec downtime another time when healing for 50 sekunds. Its not like we have nothing to do when we are healing but Furys are bussy when doing the same.</font></span></p><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class="date_text">03-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:38 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>

[Formangenavn]

<div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>bluejello wrote:I think a lot of wardens (and other classes) would sleep better at night if they would stop stressing so much about who goes in the MT group. Sometimes it looks like a bunch of kids arguing over who gets to sit at the cool table in a high school lunchroom.It doesn't matter which group you're in, you're just as important because I don't think any MT groups clear all the x4 raid bosses without the help of 3 other groups.</p><p><font color="#66ff00">You are right. It does not matter what grp you are in, but would you pick a Warden over a Fury for a non mt grp? It's all about feeling usefull.</font></p><hr></blockquote>

[Dragonreal]

<div></div><p>Okay.. we all know how important wards and reactives are yes? and we all know we have a 3s casting time on our group heal yes? well... do we all know that shamans and clerics have a FIVE second casting time on their group heals? Do you seriously want a clr or shammy jumping/sitting at any point during that long casting time so they can cast cures all the time? So the point wasn't that wardens/furies have faster cure casting times (shammys actually get an aa that can reduce their cures to .5s cast.. too bad all the shammys in my guild feel it's not worth it so I still get cure duty for the most part), but it's because their other spells are much longer cast time than ours.</p><p>2 reasons druids in general are best for curing: regens aren't as essential as a ward or reactive (therefore it's safer to interrupt our heals and go without them for a few secs) and our specialty heals cast faster so where it could take a shammy/clr 2s of casting then say .5 to interrupt, .5 to recover and 1s to cast a cure then 5s to cast the heal they interrupted (total 9.5s) it will take a druid 2s of cast, .5 to interrupt, .5 to recover, 1s to cure and 3s to cast heal (total 7.5s) then they can throw a direct heal in there in the same amount of time the clr/shammy would take just to get the cure and group heal in; that's just picking some random numbers.. it could get even worse for the clr/shammy depending on how far into their long casting time the effect happens.</p><p>Reasons warden would be better than fury as far as curing goes has already been stated: furies are supposed to be stunning themselves for porcupine when in mt grp and they have more heals they can be cycling ntm their heals recast faster than ours so even without bitf and hibernation to cycle in if they need to, they'll be casting a lot more than we will if they're in spam mode.</p>

[Formangenavn]

<div></div><p>I can sort of agree. If you are in the situation where everyone is spaming heals as fast as possible then I guess Warden might be the healer with the least to loose when curing. That is if tank is hit so often that clerics will have to recast reactive as soone as possible (they last 30 sec, HoT lasts 10 sec).</p><p>When it comes to Furys I do not agree. Why should Furys have to stunn themselfs with porc? It's an added option. Without porc, the difference between a Warden and a Fury is resists, and so we are back to what effect those resists does.</p><p>"2 reasons druids in general are best for curing: regens aren't as essential as a ward or reactive (therefore it's safer to interrupt our heals and go without them for a few secs)"</p><p>Not as essential? And this from a person who claims to heal the most in raids? How can your healing not be as important if you heal more then anyone else? I can understand that wards are all or nothing vs spike, but?</p><p>Drag, you have 2 Furys and 1 Warden and 2 open spaces for healers in raid. One Fury would get non mt grp, thats a given. Who gets mt grp? To me its a toss. Yes it might depend on tank and raidtarget, but I can not say that one would usually be prefered over the other, could you? Does not that make us inferior?</p><p>If you have 2 Wardens and one Fury its a given.</p><p>And plz, do not think about what usually happens to you. I am sure you are a very well equiped Warden, but what if the Warden and the Fury was equally equiped and played?</p>

[Dragonreal]

<div></div><p>There's one warden and one fury in my guild.. my guild leader when I joined was a fury; I have been mt grp every single raid ever since I joined except for ONE maybe TWO raids (first was when guild leader first got himself m1 porc and wanted to test it; other time was when there was a limited amount of healers and one of hte dps grps could not stay alive with no healer so I was moved over to keep them up). There's an equally equipped and equally well-played fury in guild now (guild leader has since switched mains to swashy); that fury absolutely hates mt grp, and the raid leader and mt prefers me in mt group anyway; not because he knows me better or anything either  because he's grouped nearly exclusively with this fury ever since kos came out and he's only ever really grouped with me outside of raids idk maybe 20-30 times total since I joined guild. I was told when I joined guild (long before I had anywhere near the gear/spell quality I have now and back when the guild leader's fury absolutely blew my warden away in "tricked-outness&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> that I would be mt group all the time, period, no questions asked. So, there's the end of your hypothetical equally equipped/skilled fury and warden argument; say it's just my guild if you want, but maybe that just means the wardens having issues out there are just in the wrong guilds?</p><p>And it IS true that regens are the least essential form of healing... if they weren't then why would any druid have any complaints about wasted healing and why would wardens say our direct heals are weak? Just because I can and often do parse higher in heals than other healers doesn't mean the raid can't and doesn't live with me missing a few heals to cure, but the raid could very well fail if the shammy in group misses a group ward to cure. And I never said the regens were worthless.. only not as essential as a ward or reactive.</p><p>Wardens are designed to benefit a tank group and furies are designed to benefit a dps group, whether you want to agree to that or not, I can't and won't even try any further to change your mind. Can either druid be good in any group on a raid? sure.. porc is a good buff, though limited, and resists are important for everyone on a raid as well as good group healing since, as has been mentioned, no one raids with just 3 healers, a tank, a utility and another tank/utility. But the offensive/defensive design will still be there regardless of how well the two druids can perform in a different place on a raid.</p><p>All this is not to say I don't think wardens have issues.. tw line is a big issue, as is HG line and single target DI. I don't have an issue with sandstorm because it DOES have its use.. just not on a raid and that's fine; not everything we have needs to be a raid spell. Everything wardens do is subtle and I think that's most people's issue.. people don't see big flashy things so therefore we're weak; I can understand that, but I've since gotten over it and am content with the subtlety we have... I can make the highest heal parse on a raid, but no one would ever know it, including me, if no one ever parsed heals out; I add a lot of resists, but seeing 720 when other classes can do over 1k doesn't seem very impressive til you can take into account that I add 720 to everything and others only do 1k to two or three; I can do a lot of dps if I want, but a good amount of it is tied into a dot that isn't parsed as me doing it and again like my heals, there's no large ooooo-ahhhh numbers to see until a parse is done. All this I learned to see about my class after I started raiding with this guild in dof and I've been happy ever since I grasped it. One other thing about all this and my favorite: since nothing really shows til you parse, there's not many screams for warden nerfs whereas the furies get a ton of hate from the other healers because of their flashyness; even when people DO see parses of wardens doing well, no one seems to take note for some reason and I think it's because they don't see big numbers when they're standing next to the warden in the heat of things.</p>

[frostbane]

<div>so my question is why do you all write off sandstorm as useless?  Sure the stun/knockback is ineffective against epics but the +25 defense from master 1 sandstorm provides a chunk of avoidance.  Most tanks i know cap their stamina, and their strength.  There agility is probably there 3rd highest score after that but not nearly capped. </div><div> </div><div>Now throw in a warden who can sandstorm on tough fights, AND still cast.  That 25 defense (or 22 at ad3) is somewhere around 8% avoidance on most tanks (depending on their score already).  Thats a fair amount of avoidance...and it has nothing to do with a stun/knockback....it just makes your MT that much more of a beast when it comes to smacking stuff!</div><div> </div><div>Also the MT group is built not to max healing, DPS, or any such thing.  It's built to increase the surviveability of your MT.  Thats why you try for a shaman/cleric/druid so that there aren't overlapping buffs, or any such thing.  Thats why in our guild we have a guard tank, with a pally/SK to put mitigation transfer on them, and a dirge to further increase the defensive skills of the tank.  Now everytime one of those people die the tank has less protection then he did before.  So keeping up the other people in the MT group is also important.</div><div> </div><div>Who can keep a group alive the best?  A warden!  Protecting Grove, and shorter cast times on our 2 group heals...plus a group instant!  Throw sandstorm in the mix and your whole group got a chunk of avoidance!! </div><div> </div><div>And as someone else said all our wisdom is a BIG help...because how many of us know tanks who are capped on sta?  I'd say most of us...but how many know tanks capped on wisdom? I'd say not more then a handful!  If you've got max hitpoints, whats the next best step other then mitigation?  Resists....and who provides that the best between a warden and a fury?  the warden!  Hands down!</div>

[Touryn]

<div> <span><blockquote><hr>frostbane wrote:<div>so my question is why do you all write off sandstorm as useless?  Sure the stun/knockback is ineffective against epics but the +25 defense from master 1 sandstorm provides a chunk of avoidance.  Most tanks i know cap their stamina, and their strength.  There agility is probably there 3rd highest score after that but not nearly capped. </div><div> </div><div>Now throw in a warden who can sandstorm on tough fights, AND still cast.  That 25 defense (or 22 at ad3) is somewhere around 8% avoidance on most tanks (depending on their score already).  Thats a fair amount of avoidance...and it has nothing to do with a stun/knockback....it just makes your MT that much more of a beast when it comes to smacking stuff!<hr size="2" width="100%"></div></blockquote>The last time I checked, it was closer to 3% (might have been at adept 1, I don't recall), in part because most tanks are already flirting with the cap on avoidance.  The biggest problem is how your avoidance gets cut in half or worse by yellow-orange mobs.  That 3 or 8% could become 1 or 3% against a standard raid mob.  Granted, mitigation gets hit also, but noone else is constantly burning mana to keep defense afloat.<blockquote><div><hr size="2" width="100%"> Also the MT group is built not to max healing, DPS, or any such thing.  It's built to increase the surviveability of your MT.  Thats why you try for a shaman/cleric/druid so that there aren't overlapping buffs, or any such thing.  Thats why in our guild we have a guard tank, with a pally/SK to put mitigation transfer on them, and a dirge to further increase the defensive skills of the tank.  Now everytime one of those people die the tank has less protection then he did before.  So keeping up the other people in the MT group is also important.</div><div> </div><div>Who can keep a group alive the best?  A warden!  Protecting Grove, and shorter cast times on our 2 group heals...plus a group instant!  Throw sandstorm in the mix and your whole group got a chunk of avoidance!!<hr size="2" width="100%"></div></blockquote>Strangely, we never really have a problem with the MT group getting hit, outside of the MT himself.  AoE's are really the biggest thing to injure everyone else and we try our hardest to keep everyone else outside of range of those.<blockquote><div><hr size="2" width="100%"></div><div>And as someone else said all our wisdom is a BIG help...because how many of us know tanks who are capped on sta?  I'd say most of us...but how many know tanks capped on wisdom? I'd say not more then a handful!  If you've got max hitpoints, whats the next best step other then mitigation?  Resists....and who provides that the best between a warden and a fury?  the warden!  Hands down!</div><hr></blockquote>Do resists help?  Yes.  I don't think anyone has come out and called them useless directly.  Most of us are complaining that resists aren't as useful as hitpoints (which you can't max), physical mitigation, or some yet undiscovered ability.  Either a significant boost to resists, changes to duststorm, or increasing direct tank stats (mitigation, hp) would shut most of us up.</span></div>

[mikemcmodmi]

<div></div><div></div><p>My experiences are exactly the same as Ryala's.  Outparse every other healer while doing what I feel is curing most of the time.  Furies just can't seem to do as well, we've tried.</p><p>Btw there is a reason to use duststorm sometimes I've found too.  Sometime being rooted is good for certain fearing mobs <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.  Even then though I'm not sure if it was worth the mana cost.  Resists while people complain you can cap a resist is true... but when was the last time you had a tank capped for his mental resists... tell me and I'll call you a liar.</p><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class="date_text">03-27-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:14 PM</span></p>

[heel]

<div></div><div>Regarding cures, timewise..yes you'd say other healer classes have longer casting time, but I'd also say warden's heal are equally time consuming considering the amount of heal / stack / shorter duration of heals. All things looking equal theoretically, it's nonsense for a warden to go click single cure on groupmates in heated raid when other classes offer better group cure of that type of debuff. 9 outta 10 unless it's my signature cure, I can only afford to select cure on tank and another healer in raid. Even that often times I have to open with hot tickin' while I go around and cure. Personally I've met as much cure-happy cleric / shammy as myself, and met plenty of druids who don't cure at all by habit. It's hard to designate such duty..something that's just taken care of by force of habit no matter what class. It costs so little and easy to jump it(except tranquility..urgh). What concerns me is that such trivial(not in importance itself of curing) activity is drawn down to where the effectiveness of warden's presence is being discussed. Would you rely on cleric/shammy heal power competently for their spell duration at all times, so we can conduct other duties like cures? I sure don't. And they equally should not...well, likely scenario is they do not outright. There still lies our problem on healing. I don't give two cents about parsing numbers, it's never when and how.     </div>

[Sorano]

<div>Frankly I don't cure on a raid, unless it's group cure elemental/trauma. I am so busy casting heals making sure the tank is stacked that I just don't have time to cure. I think it's up to the individual MT groups on who is the designated curer and there is no one priest class who is more suited to it. Quite simply the curer is the person who likes doing it, and is more often that not the cleric or the druid. Shammys already have enough to do with debuffing and warding. Curing in a raid is just as vital as healing, but you won't see any of that showing up in a parse which means that it's a largely thankless job. But I certainly make sure I let the templar in my group know how much I appreciate what he does, because we would not be able to defeat a lot of the encounters we do without him curing.</div>

[mindygoth]

<div>If you don't cure on raids, no wonder you are having to non-stop heal......  Some of the debuffs the mobs stick on the tank in KoS zones knocks their mit into the floor and suddenly their HP is disappearing like they are wearing paper....  Get those debuffs cured, and you can take a lil breather ;-p</div><div> </div><div>Also jealous if you have enough heals to be at it non-stop.....  single target wise I have 3 heals, and if spamming it tends to go 1-2-3 wait 1-2-3 wait (as I wait for one to re-pop) so I usually stick a cure in during the wait....  also, if there is a higher lvl Fury in the raid, I am knocked down to 2 heals I can use, as the 3rd comes up "would not take effect", so I have plenty of time for those cures and our debuff....</div><div> </div><div>Course now I'm finally lvl 70, I should have my 3rd heal back - yay!</div><div> </div><div>Oh and just to keep it vaguely on topic, I too am pretty much always in the MT group on raids, along with a Templar and a Mystic.  Oh and a Paladin, who is half a healer - I have to say that or my boyfriend gets upset when his healing abilities are disregarded - hehe.</div>

[Rappy]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>mindygoth wrote:<div>.....  single target wise I have 3 heals, and if spamming it tends to go 1-2-3 wait 1-2-3 wait (as I wait for one to re-pop) so I usually stick a cure in during the wait.... </div><hr></blockquote>Wardens get 2 direct heals not 3, the 3rd warden get is the regen which fury also have.. the 3rd direct heal you mention is a sore point for most other healing classes.. best try and avoid mentioning those on boards such as this <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> it is not usually received with a friendly wink.</span></div>

[iceriven2]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Rappy wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>mindygoth wrote:<div>.....  <strong>single target</strong> wise I have 3 heals, and if spamming it tends to go 1-2-3 wait 1-2-3 wait (as I wait for one to re-pop) so I usually stick a cure in during the wait.... </div><hr></blockquote>Wardens get 2 direct heals not 3, the 3rd warden get is the regen which fury also have.. the 3rd direct heal you mention is a sore point for most other healing classes.. best try and avoid mentioning those on boards such as this <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> it is not usually received with a friendly wink.</span></div><hr></blockquote>Not tryng to be rude ...but he said 3 SINGLE TARGET not direct

[Unmask]

<div></div>Yes but the HoT is overwritten by any other druid so typically only 1 druid in the raid will be casting it.  So if you have more than 1 warden (which is not unusual) then 1 of them will have 2 single target heals.  And IMO the HoT is preferably cast by a non MT druid anyway.

[Unmask]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Dragonrealms wrote:<div></div><p>Wardens are designed to benefit a tank group and furies are designed to benefit a dps group</p><hr></blockquote>If that were the case Wardens would have the porc line and furies would have the HG line. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[mindygoth]

<div><hr></div><div>Not tryng to be rude ...but he said 3 SINGLE TARGET not direct</div><div><hr></div><div> </div><div>Hehe - thankies - saved me saying it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><div> </div><div>Oh and iceriven2 - I know what you mean about that 3rd one - drives me potty it does <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Sorano]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>mindygoth wrote:<div>If you don't cure on raids, no wonder you are having to non-stop heal......  Some of the debuffs the mobs stick on the tank in KoS zones knocks their mit into the floor and suddenly their HP is disappearing like they are wearing paper....  Get those debuffs cured, and you can take a lil breather ;-p</div><div> </div><div> </div><hr></blockquote>You realise right that you only need ONE designated curer in the MT group? If everyone is curing then it's a huge waste of power. It just so happens our templar is the designated curer not me, and that was the point I as trying to make. No one priest class is suited to curing and whoever ends up doing the job is the one who wants/likes curing.

[mikemcmodmi]

<div></div>Oh, if the templar keeps the curing up, who keeps the group reactive up?  It is a 5 sec cast overall and a debuff seems to land on the tank about every 2 secs from my experience.

[Sorano]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>mikemcmodmike wrote:<div></div>Oh, if the templar keeps the curing up, who keeps the group reactive up?  It is a 5 sec cast overall and a debuff seems to land on the tank about every 2 secs from my experience.<hr></blockquote>Our Templar manages just fine curing and healing. It just comes down to skill and the fact that we know how to work together as a team.

[mindygoth]

<div></div><blockquote dir="ltr"><div><hr></div><div>Our Templar manages just fine curing and healing. It just comes down to skill and the fact that we know how to work together as a team</div><div><hr></div></blockquote><div><img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Must put a rocket up our templar then - I end up doing most of the curing for our group coz I can't seem to pursuade the other healers to do it - LOL</div>

[Wabit]

<div></div><p>ugg quit putting ideas in my furies heads...  it took me long enough to train my puppies on how i like my healers to work <3 CDD...  in all honesty its more who the raid leader or MT is more comfortable with...  it also depends on the class of the MT... </p><p>wardens give warriors alot more than they do crusaders (we have used both)</p><ol><li>when was the last time you saw a paly needing wisdom or more resists???</li><li>what does a guard need int for???</li></ol><p>sandstorm is useful, even if its just there to offset the .5 sec that a debuff is hit...  (also its the only way i've gotten one of my AAs to work on an epic)...  but i can cap def solo...</p><p>as for cures, i like it to be my druid, but it can be the cleric too...  raid mobs hit so slow that there is plenty of time for reactives to never go down...</p><p>now here is what i'm looking at as a guard MT (and as MT everything is about me)...</p><ol><li>108 wis vs 108 int...  i'll take the wisdom...</li><li>75 wis/agi vs 75 wis/int...  agi > int</li><li>+52 off stats vs 67str/agi & haste...  i lose off stats from my def stance i can actully hit the mobs with this buff vs str that i'm already capped in, and haste that just means i can trigger a damage shield more often or just not hit the mob more often...</li></ol><p>that equals</p><ol><li>182 wis (~540 to all resists or ~720 total), 75 agi, and +52 to my melee for the warden, spores...  all useful</li><li>182 int (yay i proc 16 instead of 14 on my DS), 75 wis (225 to all resists), 67 agi, 67 str, haste, 62 regen (drop in the bucket)...</li></ol><p>the only reasons i'll put a fury over a warend is if i need porc on a hard pull (as much for me as the rest of MT group eating full AEs), or the fury is just way better upgraded spells...  the extra resists the wardens add lets me keep more of my mita gear on and still be at acceptable lvls of resists...  if i was a paly i'd pick the fury over the warden...</p>

[rowanC7276]

<div></div><div><p><font face="Times New Roman" color="#330066" size="3">This is all just my personal opinion here, but I do not think it is an always this way or that way kind of deal. I think it depends on what works best in your particular raid force, the skill of the players, and player relationship. </font></p><p><font face="Times New Roman" color="#330066" size="3">Now let me explain. I have been both the in MT group and not in MT group. Our originally MT always had me in the Mt group until he discovered the better mit he could get with different classes. So I moved out of the MT group. ( He was a Guardian fyi)</font></p><p><font size="3"><font color="#330066"><font face="Times New Roman">Now we have a Berserker as MT and once again I find myself back in the MT group. His preference is to have the better resists over higher Mit. <span> </span></font><span><span>J</span></span><font face="Times New Roman"> Personally it does not matter to me where I am – It is what works for the raid to be successful that matters. The skill of the player is also very important. For example – just because a particular might be a great choice for the MT group does not mean that it always has to be set that way.<span>  </span>A very knowledgeable, experienced Fury ( or any class) would be far better in the MT group than to have warden ( or any class) who does not have a clue how to play their toon.</font></font></font></p><p><font face="Times New Roman" color="#330066" size="3">And last I do believe relationship between players counts also. If you put someone in the MT group whose personality clashes with the others then you are going to have problems. I am not saying that you have to be best buds with everyone in your force but you have to respect each other and trust each other. </font></p><p><font face="Times New Roman" color="#330066" size="3">A great raid force is like a well oiled machine. You have to find what works best for you and your group. Then you have to do the position assigned to you to the best of your ability even if it is not necessarily where you want to be. </font></p><p><font face="Times New Roman" color="#330066" size="3"></font> </p><p><font face="Times New Roman" color="#330066" size="3"></font> </p><p><font face="Times New Roman" color="#330066" size="3"></font> </p><p><font face="Times New Roman" color="#330066" size="3"></font> </p><p><font face="Times New Roman" color="#330066" size="3"></font> </p><p><font face="Times New Roman" color="#330066" size="3"></font> </p><p><font face="Times New Roman" color="#330066" size="3">I know I need to update my sig..lol</font></p></div>

[Unmask]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Wabit wrote:<div></div><p>+52 off stats vs 67str/agi & haste... </p><hr></blockquote>65 at master <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Unmask]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote>oops double post</blockquote><p>Message Edited by Unmasked on <span class="date_text">03-29-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:08 PM</span></p>

[sAs-Bartleby]

you are only discussing the pure numbers of buffs and heals.You should also look the psychologic side.A Fury is nearby a damage dealer. so they will sometimes do damage instead of healing, or think about doing damage and slowly react.A warden will never think about doing damage at all.Our damage is too bad even thinking about it a second is unbelievable.From this point of view it is alwasy better to but the warden in MT group.<span>:smileytongue:</span>

[Wabit]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>sAs-Bartleby wrote:A warden will never think about doing damage at all.Our damage is too bad even thinking about it a second is unbelievable.<hr></blockquote>tell that to my warden who likes to chain solo healer HO's...

[mikemcmodmi]

<div></div><div></div><p>As your Warden should.  I find the versatility of the Warden class extends to raids.  If you're clearing trash mobs then chain nuking is the way to go because of how Wardens fit into the overall healing scheme. </p><p>I've heard it all before, 'if you want to do damage go roll a Wizard', 'Wardens are healers, just heal', blah blah blah.  Fact is that especially if someone else is in an off group keeping the hot up a Warden will have NOTHING to do on trash mobs or easier encounters then chain nuke.  The poor ones will pigeonhole themselves into being just a healer and just sit on their butts while clearing trash mobs (like in PP return) at full power doing absolutely nothing.  These same Wardens will probably feel they aren't useful in raids as well unless you're taking down a harder mob.</p><p>The good Wardens will strap on some Intelligence gear and get nuking.  I've hit 580 dps in a raid on trash mobs with wizards hitting only in the 600s.  I've even outdpsed some Wizards and DPS classes when they've slacked... Wardens are the perfect benchmark for DPS classes.  Outdps your warden or [Removed for Content] until you're ready to turn the TV off and contribute to the raid.... bunch of DPS slackers!</p><p>Plus, because Wardens are the healer who's healing damage spikes and maybe curing Wardens tend to get a better feel for how hard an encounter is and is the best person to ask if buffs or strat needs to be changed.  They should know when to switch from healing to nuking.  They make great raid leaders /flex.</p><p>Plus, and most importantly, there are some really nice HOs that come from Priest/scout or Priest/mage.  Arcane Chalice comes to mind.. the 1200 mitigation group buff ho.  Either that or the power hos for the healer.</p><p>Mayi - 70 Warden - Lords of Chaos</p><p>Message Edited by mikemcmodmike on <span class="date_text">03-30-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:00 PM</span></p>

[Dragonreal]

<div></div>warden damage honestly isn't all that bad.. up your int and get good spell quality on damage abilities and get one of the spell proc items available and see how well you actually can do =P I was making the brig in my guild jealous the one night when I wasn't really needed fo rhealing so I asked him to parse me.

[Wabit]

<div></div><p>if any of the MT group healers are chain nuking consistanty during raids, tells me we have too many healers on a that raid (everything besides PoS and DMP we did with 5 healers in t6)...  i don't bring priests to be dps...  it would be the same as if i as MT switched to off stance from def (lose mita and avoidance)... </p><p>as for raid leader, well that can be anyone who is paying attention...  all you need is for the combat logs to be on...</p><p>but yes wardens can out dps guards and palys, and even with SKs most every encounter with int gear and nukeing with some spot healing...</p><p>the way i look at it, its the MT groups main job to give the MT the best chance for survival...  thier dps can be next to nothing, i have them there for buffs and heals...  i'm hardest on the MT group during raids when we die to stupid stuff (just plain getting beat on an encounter i can take)...  if my group is good we can make up for others mistakes...  i'd rather have my healers full mana than waist it on nukes incase something bad does happen...  thats when beating something feels best...  2 of the 4 group die cause of bad pull (easy to get 2 encounters), mistimed AE (lagspikes suck), whatever; we can recover...  even the boring trash can be deadly when the unexpected happens...</p>

[Unmask]

<div></div>You need fewer healers for trash than you do for boss mobs.  Everyone likes to feel useful and do something even if it's pointless nuking against trash.  This is especially true in zones like PPR.  Otherwise why even bother playing?

[mikemcmodmi]

<div></div><div>Agreed.  This isn't T5 anymore where you zone in to fight one encounter.  You fight easy and hard mobs in the same zone.  Well, at least we aren't fighting T5 anymore <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>