Positive Light

[friedx100]

<DIV>1: Scout pet aggro has been reduced</DIV> <DIV>2: Necros will be more inclined to use their mage pets now.'</DIV> <DIV>3: "Flame of Forum" has been reduced to 1 "Necros way overpowered" post a week.</DIV>

[Who the F stole my Na]

<DIV>Negative light:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1: Scout pet aggro has been reduced</DIV> <DIV>2: Our scout pet is now as bad as our mage pet.</DIV> <DIV>3: The "Necros way overpowered" posts have gotten what they wanted.</DIV>

[AlastorPh]

You know, this is partly why i stopped playing EQ2.  "Forget the positive! I wanna [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about my class, because it got nerfed!"<BR><BR>Summoners needed to be toned down.  I will openly admit it.  But now that it's going to happen, it's time for the summoners to start complaining.  Class balance is inevitable.  Someone out there is always going to be complaining about a class that needs nerfing(or as it goes, needs to be more powerful).  Let's see here:<BR><BR> <DIV>Negative light:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1: Scout pet aggro has been reduced<BR><FONT color=#ffff66>---->Heh, that's pretty funny.  Agro reduction for a cloth wearer?  Who needs that?  Even though you could use your little AGI AA to reduce agro on your scout pet, there are times, even in raid instances, where it would pull agro.  This was even more noticable single-grouping.</FONT> </DIV> <DIV>2: Our scout pet is now as bad as our mage pet.<BR><FONT color=#ffff66>---->The way i see this change, even if I'm no longer playing, is simple.  The scout pet will be balanced with the rest of our pets. I've seen it stated in other posts, and i'll reiterate.  We're not meant to be spectacular scouts, powerful warlock, or strong tanks.  We're kinda amorphic in a sense, summonerss change their pet to best handle the situation.  We summoners shouldn't expect our pets to out-DPS a scout by itself, and i've seen it done quite easily.  The moral of this story:  Live with it, cause its gonna happen no matter how hard you whine.</FONT> </DIV> <DIV>3: The "Necros way overpowered" posts have gotten what they wanted.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff66>---->Yea?  Maybe they did.  It's just the circle of EQ2 life.  Someone's next on the nerfing block.  Just grin and bear it.</FONT></DIV>

[Haavo]

Anything to kill the solo game I guess.<div></div>

[armus5]

<P>As much as I don't want it to happen I knew the Wizard lobby would win. They've won consistently since LU13 (our only victory). I'm seriously thinking of retiring my necro. </P> <P>To the wizy's, grats. I hope you enjoy being the next head that pokes out of the groundhog mound. We didn't ask to be so uber and we enjoyed the time we were. We hate that others envy us and wish us harm. But like the book says, if a man would strike your left cheek, turn your head and present him the other. So please, our dumbfires still survive against the normal mobs since they don't AE. Please fix that, they should die. Our pet's still have too many hitpoints after the last stealth nerf, you may take that too. Our nukes are overpowered since you beafed up that long casting AE by 20 points. Lich obviously should not give us mana, a proc and a shape change. It would be better to just have it change our form and do nothing else, like all our other useful fun spells. Undead Tide actually gives us 3 pets instead of the one to 12 it lists, so better change that to just one. And of course the assassin pet is way too powerful, lets take all it's CAs away and just let it auto attack with butterknives. </P> <P>Please sir, may I have another? It feels so good to be loved.</P>

[Renlinjugga]

Honestly, I could care less, I still really enjoy playing my Necro, he can do things my Inquisitor cant. Sure we got "nerfed" but if you really, truely enjoy playing a Necro for what it is, then it wont bother you too much, you just have to compensate in another area.<div></div>

[RandomCarnage]

Some people have been so fixated on max dps in group/raid situations that the predictable SOE reaction to cut damage across the board will harm soloers to a very "not funny" extent. Our pets do not need regulated.  If anything, our tank pet needs to be substantially improved.  Moderate our dps through lore based changes that have actually been thought through.  DoT's that progressivly do more damage each tick (100, 125, 150, 175, 200...etc) over long durations of a minute or so are one way to build up high dps over long fights while limiting damage in shorter fights where the wiz nukes can shine. As it stands, our pets are a joke, and set to become worse.  A T7 Necro master 1 tank pet is pathetic.  While soloing or in small groups it is embarrassing how fast its hp get ripped by even green con ^^ mobs.  Add to this a cut in our dps and the scenario of "pet dead...necro dead..." will become all to familiar.  Pet healing is at best a token gesture, and of little real benifit during a fight.  I have master tank and both master heals, and tank pet falls over way to often.  Once pet is gone, you better hope there isn't 2 mobs. 1 u can park, the other will be all over us long before we can even hope to get another pet out esp. in dungeons. Big thumbs down to SOE over this one. Not well though through at all. Just another reaction to lobby groups and despite claims to the contrary, a knee jerk reaction to raid dps figures. <div></div>

[Uanelven]

<div><blockquote><hr>AlastorPhan wrote:<div></div>  <div>1: Scout pet aggro has been reduced<font color="#ffff66">---->Heh, that's pretty funny.  Agro reduction for a cloth wearer?  Who needs that?  Even though you could use your little AGI AA to reduce agro on your scout pet, there are times, even in raid instances, where it would pull agro.  This was even more noticable single-grouping.</font> <font color="#ff6600">Agree</font></div> <div>2: Our scout pet is now as bad as our mage pet.<font color="#ffff66">---->The way i see this change, even if I'm no longer playing, is simple.  The scout pet will be balanced with the rest of our pets. I've seen it stated in other posts, and i'll reiterate.  We're not meant to be spectacular scouts, powerful warlock, or strong tanks. <font color="#ff9900"><font color="#ff6600">We aren't</font> </font> We're kinda amorphic in a sense, summonerss change their pet to best handle the situation. <font color="#ff9900"><font color="#ff6600">That's what I do now.</font> </font> We summoners shouldn't expect our pets to out-DPS a scout by itself, and i've seen it done quite easily.  <font color="#ff6600">A bard probably yes, other than that you haven't. More likely you've been parsing your dumbfires with your pet.</font>    The moral of this story:  Live with it, cause its gonna happen no matter how hard you whine.</font>  <font color="#ff6600">Probably.</font></div> <div>3: The "Necros way overpowered" posts have gotten what they wanted.</div> <div><font color="#ffff66">---->Yea?  Maybe they did.  It's just the circle of EQ2 life.  Someone's next on the nerfing block.  Just grin and bear it.  <font color="#ff6600">Just like your doing?</font></font> Maskahu70th Necromancer<b><font color="#ff6600">(Retired Indefinitely)</font></b></div><hr></blockquote>Something needs doing to bring damage dealers in line yes.  To make us perma T2-T3 (what people seem to wish for) is effectively relegating us to pre- LU13 since that's where we were then and nobody disputed the fact we were broken.  Ok sure,  we have prettier pets now.   Perhaps people are happy about it all I don't know.  /shrug  Lets wait and see but I think this place will probably get a fair bit busier soon.</div>

[Obadiah]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RandomCarnage wrote:<BR>Some people have been so fixated on max dps in group/raid situations that the predictable SOE reaction to cut damage across the board will harm soloers to a very "not funny" extent.<BR><BR>Our pets do not need regulated.  If anything, our tank pet needs to be substantially improved.  Moderate our dps through lore based changes that have actually been thought through.  DoT's that progressivly do more damage each tick (100, 125, 150, 175, 200...etc) over long durations of a minute or so are one way to build up high dps over long fights while limiting damage in shorter fights where the wiz nukes can shine.<BR><BR>As it stands, our pets are a joke, and set to become worse.  A T7 Necro master 1 tank pet is pathetic.  While soloing or in small groups it is embarrassing how fast its hp get ripped by even green con ^^ mobs.  Add to this a cut in our dps and the scenario of "pet dead...necro dead..." will become all to familiar.  Pet healing is at best a token gesture, and of little real benifit during a fight.  I have master tank and both master heals, and tank pet falls over way to often.  Once pet is gone, you better hope there isn't 2 mobs. 1 u can park, the other will be all over us long before we can even hope to get another pet out esp. in dungeons. <BR><BR>Big thumbs down to SOE over this one. Not well though through at all. Just another reaction to lobby groups and despite claims to the contrary, a knee jerk reaction to raid dps figures.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Seems to me these changes HAVE been thought through. This has been a long time coming - i.e. since the infamous Ranger nerf of '06. The scout pet specifically was overpowered. It really doesn't seem like a big deal. </P> <P>Oddly, I've had precisely the opposite experience with the tank pet. I also have the T7 master tank pet, but weaker heals. The big heal is at Adept 3 and the pet-only heal-over-time is only Adept 1. I avoid ^^^s like the plague, but I can take on ^^s alone or in pairs that are yellow. Could do that in T6 with the Adept 3 pet too. Never really relied on the tank pet's damage output to win the fight either, and range generally keeps the mobs from turning on me, so this minor damage reduction hardly seems game-changing.</P> <P>I've seen the Scout pet out-DPS other classes fairly regularly too. All my dumbfires/swarm pets have their own names, and just the Scout pet has outdamaged others. Not every fight, or every group, or every DPS class. But not just bards - heck, I hardly ever see Bards. :smileysad: And frequently enough that it seems problematic. </P>

[Shipwreck_GPA]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Obadiah wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Oddly, I've had precisely the opposite experience with the tank pet. I also have the T7 master tank pet, but weaker heals. The big heal is at Adept 3 and the pet-only heal-over-time is only Adept 1. I avoid ^^^s like the plague, but I can take on ^^s alone or in pairs that are yellow. Could do that in T6 with the Adept 3 pet too. Never really relied on the tank pet's damage output to win the fight either, and range generally keeps the mobs from turning on me, so this minor damage reduction hardly seems game-changing.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Out of curiousity, how are the proposed reduced durations on root and stun going to impact this?

[Obadiah]

<P>Well, I'm guessing it's going to make it more difficult. :smileysurprised: But, I recast my roots more often than I <STRONG>need </STRONG>to because I'm a chicken, so I don't see a big change. I think the impact to most will be that soloing pairs of ^^s will be more power-consuming than it currently is because one will have to recast the root more often. 30 second duration . . . I think my pet will be OK. </P> <P>Actually, since debuffing won't break it, and damage is slightly less likely to break it, I'm thinking it may make ^^^s easier for all mage types. Can't wait to find out anyway.</P>

[RandomCarnage]

If we had the wizzy 10k nukes (guildie was hitting for 12k tonight) then it wouldn't be a problem to cast a 1.05 root, wait 45 sec for it to refresh, nuke for 10k and recast root...rinse/repeat. We necros on the other hand have pets and DoT's, both of which can break root every tick.  The chance of root lasting the 45 seconds needed for the spell to refresh is minimal.  It would break, we would FD or die (before or after pet gets eaten aside).  The other option is the same tactic as the wizzy, but with 1500 ish damage from abate life.  Either way, we lose. <div></div>

[AlastorPh]

<DIV>Heh, if you really must know, I had to retire my necro for personal reasons.  Not because of this upcoming "nerf".  I would've remained true to my word and live with the changes, because i know this "nerf-bat" is just making the rounds. Someone is next...you can count on it. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Obadiah]

<DIV>If you are attacking / doing damage, then these changes make the root <STRONG>more</STRONG> effective as they reduce the break % chance slightly. The root duration doesn't impact you at all in this case. Duration could be 20 minutes but it's still going to break if you're doing damage. The screenshot I saw of Eternal Chains on test didn't have a 45 second recast timer on it, but rather 6.0s. It's all good.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=30&message.id=21917" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=30&message.id=21917</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On the rare occasion that I go after a ^^^, I use the root, then debuff, then soften it up with an Abate Life. If it breaks, the mob is usually 'feared', so you have a chance to recast it. Rinse/repeat. Once I think it's "ripe" - say, 75% health or so, I let the tank pet go at it and get as far away as possible to give the pet the best chance of gaining aggro before I go poof. Like I said before though, I generally stick to pairs of ^^s, which aren't made any more difficult by this as long as you leave the rooted mob alone. </DIV>

[Deila]

<P> </P> <P>Yeah, the only real difference to the root duration as far as Necromancers are concerned is for simple crowd control, not for when attacking the rooted mob. Either splitting up pairs of mobs, or parking adds while grouped, the same stuff we're used to. Only difference I've really noticed in practice is that before, a root was kind of a 'park and forget', since the duration was long enough to do so in most cases. Now, have to keep an eye on it, and refresh as needed. I don't mind the extra involvement at all, but then, complexities in managing and multi-tasking while using a pet to tank were largely what attracted me to Necromancy in the first place. Keeps one on their toes.</P> <P>Even with the break chance reduced to 15% from 20%, if you put a pet on it and stack up a few DoTs, that root isn't going to hold reliably - it's neither better nor worse in practice. That many sources of damage ticking away (and checking for root break), it's just not even worth sweating. You might get the odd case where somehow a root didn't break under all that, but I'd personally never rely on that as a <EM>strategy</EM>.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P>

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>Haavokk wrote:Anything to kill the solo game I guess.<div></div><hr></blockquote>And I HATE moronic, no truth, deseptive posts like this. Soloing in EQ2 is easier than hitting the bowl when you pee... Obviously that explains why the ones that can't solo have to sit down to pee.You could go the entire game of EQ2 without EVER grouping and end up L70 with several masters and all Adept IIIs which is almost as good. This notion that EQ2 is somehow solo unfriendly is just plain stupid.

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>RandomCarnage wrote:Some people have been so fixated on max dps in group/raid situationsthat the predictable SOE reaction to cut damage across the board willharm soloers to a very "not funny" extent.Our pets do not need regulated.  If anything, our tank pet needsto be substantially improved.  Moderate our dps through lore basedchanges that have actually been thought through.  DoT's thatprogressivly do more damage each tick (100, 125, 150, 175, 200...etc)over long durations of a minute or so are one way to build up high dpsover long fights while limiting damage in shorter fights where the wiznukes can shine.As it stands, our pets are a joke, and set to become worse.  A T7Necro master 1 tank pet is pathetic.  While soloing or in smallgroups it is embarrassing how fast its hp get ripped by even green con^^ mobs.  Add to this a cut in our dps and the scenario of "petdead...necro dead..." will become all to familiar.  Pet healing isat best a token gesture, and of little real benifit during afight.  I have master tank and both master heals, and tank petfalls over way to often.  Once pet is gone, you better hope thereisn't 2 mobs. 1 u can park, the other will be all over us long beforewe can even hope to get another pet out esp. in dungeons. Big thumbs down to SOE over this one. Not well though through at all.Just another reaction to lobby groups and despite claims to thecontrary, a knee jerk reaction to raid dps figures.<div></div><hr></blockquote>This change mostly affects raid mobs! Its a very sligt change to soloers... AS STATED BY PEOPLE THAT PLAY ON TEST...In raids we're DOING TOO MUCH DAMAGE! We aren't slightly out damaging T1 DPS in raids, we're dominating them. If you think thats good for the game, then you're wrong. If you don't care about the game, and just want to keep the status quo, then I guess we're glad that SoE doen't care what you think.From what I've heard, SoE is not going to make escalating damage spells becasue overall they'd HURT summoners. If our spells had to run 30 seconds just to become effective, then they'd be worthless in the majority of short fights which make up the game. If you balanced them around short fights they'd become extremely over the top on larger mobs... Thus the system we have. I've been a long time fan of splurt type spells, but this logic does absolutely make sence.If you think our pets are a joke then go play a Wizard. Our pets rock and are great at what they're supposed to be used for. If your master I pet is dying too often, WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU SOLOING !

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>GPA_Shipwreck wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Obadiah wrote:<BR><BR><BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oddly, I've had precisely the opposite experience with the tank pet. I also have the T7 master tank pet, but weaker heals. The big heal is at Adept 3 and the pet-only heal-over-time is only Adept 1. I avoid ^^^s like the plague, but I can take on ^^s alone or in pairs that are yellow. Could do that in T6 with the Adept 3 pet too. Never really relied on the tank pet's damage output to win the fight either, and range generally keeps the mobs from turning on me, so this minor damage reduction hardly seems game-changing.</P><BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Out of curiousity, how are the proposed reduced durations on root and stun going to impact this?<hr></blockquote>Personally, I think these changes are goona hurt soloing WAY more than the DPS changes. Not sure how much yet, but I guarantee you you'll notice these changes, esp if you solo ^^ and ^^^ mobs alot.

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>RandomCarnage wrote:If we had the wizzy 10k nukes (guildie was hitting for 12k tonight)then it wouldn't be a problem to cast a 1.05 root, wait 45 sec for itto refresh, nuke for 10k and recast root...rinse/repeat.We necros on the other hand have pets and DoT's, both of which canbreak root every tick.  The chance of root lasting the 45 secondsneeded for the spell to refresh is minimal.  It would break, wewould FD or die (before or after pet gets eaten aside).  The otheroption is the same tactic as the wizzy, but with 1500 ish damage fromabate life.  Either way, we lose.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Wow, by the looks of your posts, you really need someone to teach you to play. 1. You don't use roots to hold mobs while your pets beat on them, that just does not work. 2. The biggest change will be with stuns. Stuns currently allow us time to let the tank pet gain good agro AND stops the mob from hurting the pet for a good amount of time. That's a HUGE part of soloing tough mobs. Send in tank, stun mob, load up DFs and DoTs, and if you can beat the mob you should notice that your pets health is green while the mobs is dropped to yellow or lower. Then just heal the pet, amd if you're L50 GO GET YOUR HEAL STAFF. 40% HPt heal on top of your pets normal 10k Hpts is a pet that should NEVER die vs anything that should remotely be concidered soloable.Yes a Wizzie has a huge nuke, but all our pets comnibed do similar damage once the get going. The difference is, the wizard eats the agro from all that DPS, while we divide it among DoTs, Pets, DFs, and our personal DDs. But that's not raging against the necro nerf, so that obviously doesn't matter.

[Magik01]

<FONT color=#99cccc>I am tired of SOE and all their nerfing.  Not only to our class, but to many classes.  It's as if they take the contructive feedback and do the exact opposite (perhaps due to the cry babies out there too).  They ruin everything they touch and are completely clueless on how to 'balance' much of anything in my opinion.   I have no problems with logical nerfs, our class has had a few and I am fine with it, it's all the dumb [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] -and there is too much of it to count now- that pisses me off.</FONT>

[Za]

Name some of the dumb stuff!And mind you... if it was so dumb, you'd think the game would have suffered in some way from it.But last I checked the game is still very trivial!I see all the posts saying... just boost classes... HOW FREAKING EASY DO YOU WANT TO MAKE THE GAME!?If they boosted wiazards and didn't nerf summoners, then EQ2 would be tetris with swords! Which again, is BAD FOR THE GAME! But then I truely doubt that any of you true whiners care about whats best for the game. All you care about is whats gonna stroke your ego and make you feel special.

[armus5]

<P>boy he really got us there. yes sir. We're just stroking our egos to want to be able to root mobs. It's not like the roots break. Well ok, they do. But they only break when you cast spells on them, and we don't try to do that much since we have high damage spells. Well ok, maybe they aren't that high. I mean it's not like we have a 30k nuke or something. If we could do that in one hit then there would only be one roll to break the root. Instead we have to nuke like the devil to get that much damage and I think it rolls each hit to break the root. But they are reducing pet damage so that might help keep the root up. Well ok, maybe it doesn't matter how much damage the pet does, it still breaks the root. Of course the decreased damage doesn't hurt us for soloing since you can't tank-solo a blue-con heroic with our pets. Oh that might have a little to do with the stealth nerf they threw on the pets a while back that most people have forgotten about. This might suck for necros who want to solo but they shouldn't be soloing anyways. After all, if they wanted to solo, they should have well, just rolled a wizard. And for all those lvl70 necros with tons of raid gear and plat and all, retire. You'll never get as good as you have now. They will just keep downing you, calling you whiners and kicking you in the balls. </P> <P>Envy is red-con epicx4.</P> <P>Oh yeah, and I wanted to mention I PMed Moorguard and Blackguard asking why and why they haven't fixed the other borken parts of the necro before they nerfed the only working parts. I haven't gotten a reply yet. Maybe they just haven't read their mail. Yeah, I'm sure that's the reason.</P><p>Message Edited by armus550 on <span class=date_text>05-16-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:09 PM</span>

[Allowen]

<DIV>At least our mage pet is not just ok dps but also does group heals ......</DIV>

[Obadiah]

<P>Luckily, Armus, none of the changes will make a large difference using roots for soloing. Roots break now when you attack mobs, roots will break later when you attack mobs. /shrug. I like it because I can fire off the debuffs without worrying about breaking the root, although because of the shortened timer I will then have to recast it. Again, /shrug. </P> <P>My tank pet, even with less-than-Master versions of the heals, works just fine against every pair of blue ^^ I've encountered. Unless I'm sloppy or lazy I don't lose the pet on those, or white ones, or lower yellows. It takes forever, and is hardly worth it unless it's a quest mob, but I've now found I can tackle some lower blue ^^^s too. What we can do - and still will be able to do - that Wizards cannot is root the mob and recast another tank pet. IMO there's no way the new tank pet should be able to get aggro from you, but more often than not it does if you put some distance between yourself and the mob. </P> <P>What else is broken on the Necro though? I think that even after this change it will still be the most fun of all the classes I've tried.</P>

[Rousso]

<P>WooHoo!! I LOVE the changes! I finally out DPS my pet now! I cant tell you how [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing sick it made me to see my pet out DPS me EVERY battle. Whenever someone would run a parser - there it was - Kenny out DPS's me again. I tried everything to beat him; sent him into battle without any buffs, refused to heal him, etc., but no matter what I tried - if my pet was in the fray it out DPS'd me. No longer! I finally feel effective in groups now!</P> <P> </P>

[RandomCarnage]

Zald, I'm not interested in a flaming war, but you have taken an attacking stance to [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] near every post I've written. I would suggest you start reading my posts more carefully before you respond.  Many of the things you are critical of in your replies are NOT what I said, or taken out of context. I have repeatedly accepted a drop in our dps as being a necessary realignment.  My point is that it should be done through our spells, not our pets, and that we should maintain top tier dps over the longer fights in the game (raid mobs) while wizzy's get to shine over shorter/medium term fights with massive burst dps. Splurt spells CAN limit our short term dps but allow for long term top tier damage.  This can be done by replacing one or two of our burst dps spells with splurt spells.  This will maintain some burst capability, but lower it.  I was not suggesting we replace all our burst dps. The splurt increments need not be great either, so doing reasonable damage over the short/medium fights, but high damage over long fights by using duration timers of 10 ticks or more.  A stepped tier within a DoT is another option where it has medium damage ticks for the first 5 ticks then high damage ticks for the next 5 ticks effectivly doing T2 dps over 30 sec fights then T1 damage for fights that go longer (the exact details are not important, just an example). I have stated that scout pets cannot tank as well as tank pets.  I said that you prolly scout tank solos and occasionally a ^^ and you verified this yourself.  I said that a ^^^ will likely eat your scout, and you agree with this to, in your way.  I have in other posts made reference to using stuns and heals, but you seem to have missed these. Tank pets are for soloing (generally) and I have never implied that they should be as good as players, but inc. our pet and our dps and utility we should be able to handle any mob that any other class can handle.  We can't.  A wizzy can root/nuke, as they should.  We can too but in a much more limited capacity.  Our main weapons of pet and DoT's are often not useable when trying to solo any mob that can't be killed quickly as the incoming damage on our pets is too great to keep up with.  I have said before that we're not meant to solo 68+^^^heroics, but other classes can, and as such so should we to.  We can't pet tank them without resorting to root/snare/nuke tactics ala wizzy style. You say I need to learn to play my class.  That statement I will let go for the sake of this thread, but if you re-read my posts (on several different threads) then you will see that I have already acknowledged the role of when and where to use different tactics.  You underestimate me, and I would hope you take the time to review my posts before you so lightly attack my position. In various posts I have stated the necessary use of pets and DoT's, stuns/roots/nukes, heals and the like depending on the situation... feel free to look them up. If you want, send me a PM and I'll happily meet you on teamspeak to discuss our relative positions. <div></div>

[Fle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zald wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RandomCarnage wrote:<BR>Some people have been so fixated on max dps in group/raid situations<BR>that the predictable SOE reaction to cut damage across the board will<BR>harm soloers to a very "not funny" extent.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Our pets do not need regulated.  If anything, our tank pet needs<BR>to be substantially improved.  Moderate our dps through lore based<BR>changes that have actually been thought through.  DoT's that<BR>progressivly do more damage each tick (100, 125, 150, 175, 200...etc)<BR>over long durations of a minute or so are one way to build up high dps<BR>over long fights while limiting damage in shorter fights where the wiz<BR>nukes can shine.<BR><BR><BR><BR>As it stands, our pets are a joke, and set to become worse.  A T7<BR>Necro master 1 tank pet is pathetic.  While soloing or in small<BR>groups it is embarrassing how fast its hp get ripped by even green con<BR>^^ mobs.  Add to this a cut in our dps and the scenario of "pet<BR>dead...necro dead..." will become all to familiar.  Pet healing is<BR>at best a token gesture, and of little real benifit during a<BR>fight.  I have master tank and both master heals, and tank pet<BR>falls over way to often.  Once pet is gone, you better hope there<BR>isn't 2 mobs. 1 u can park, the other will be all over us long before<BR>we can even hope to get another pet out esp. in dungeons. <BR><BR><BR><BR>Big thumbs down to SOE over this one. Not well though through at all.<BR>Just another reaction to lobby groups and despite claims to the<BR>contrary, a knee jerk reaction to raid dps figures.<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>This change mostly affects raid mobs! Its a very sligt change to soloers... AS STATED BY PEOPLE THAT PLAY ON TEST...<BR><BR>In raids we're DOING TOO MUCH DAMAGE! We aren't slightly out damaging T1 DPS in raids, we're dominating them. If you think thats good for the game, then you're wrong. If you don't care about the game, and just want to keep the status quo, then I guess we're glad that SoE doen't care what you think.<BR><BR>From what I've heard, SoE is not going to make escalating damage spells becasue overall they'd HURT summoners. If our spells had to run 30 seconds just to become effective, then they'd be worthless in the majority of short fights which make up the game. If you balanced them around short fights they'd become extremely over the top on larger mobs... Thus the system we have. I've been a long time fan of splurt type spells, but this logic does absolutely make sence.<BR><BR>If you think our pets are a joke then go play a Wizard. Our pets rock and are great at what they're supposed to be used for. If your master I pet is dying too often, WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU SOLOING !<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Dominating dps in Raids.?    That's bollox.</P> <P>I go on plenty of raids where pet's don't even come into the equation because they keep getting owned by ae's. Just because some [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] parsed a particular raid where a necro was on top then thinks oh they are like that with every encounter. [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] off.<BR></P>

[evhallion]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rousso wrote:<BR> <P>WooHoo!! I LOVE the changes! I finally out DPS my pet now! I cant tell you how [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing sick it made me to see my pet out DPS me EVERY battle. Whenever someone would run a parser - there it was - Kenny out DPS's me again. I tried everything to beat him; sent him into battle without any buffs, refused to heal him, etc., but no matter what I tried - if my pet was in the fray it out DPS'd me. No longer! I finally feel effective in groups now!</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You were never the one who was suspose to be doing the bulk of the damage, it was always suspose to be your pet. You without your pet have the DPS of a healer (Fury maybe). So glad you get all fuzzy about your T3 dps. And if you wish to see your true parse give your pet your name so it will combine your dps as it is intended to be.

[SeratedEdge]

<P>I wasnt going to reply but something someone said just annoyed me. Just because other classes can solo something does not make it the norm and mean that everyone should be able to. On my coercer i can solo 70^^^ does that mean every class should be able to? HELL NO! It means coercers need to be nerfed in their solo capacity, just like the other classes who can solo non-trivial heroics. </P> <P>And another thing, whining that you can no longer solo blue or green ^^^ will get you no love from dev's, as to them you shouldn't be able to.</P> <P> </P> <P>BTW if you do not believe me you can watch me do it on AB if you'd like, as with all classes, knowing your class will get you ALOT further then the other ppl who have no clue about any of the classes in the game</P>

[Rousso]

<DIV><STRONG>You were never the one who was suspose to be doing the bulk of the damage, it was always suspose to be your pet. You without your pet have the DPS of a healer (Fury maybe). So glad you get all fuzzy about your T3 dps. And if you wish to see your true parse give your pet your name so it will combine your dps as it is intended to be. </STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>:smileysurprised:</DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>Dude - that was sarcasm. I figured the over-the-top, effusive excitement about my absolutely-[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing-lutely lame-[Removed for Content] personal DPS would clue most people in. Woohoo I am excited that my assassin pet is (or will soon be) so lame that even <EM>I </EM>can out DPS it. The topic of the post was "positive light,"  but since I can see nothing positive in the upcomming nerfs - I decided to make a (at least IMO) humourous, sarcastic response. It could be possible that some truly clueless necro might be upset by seeing his pet out DPS him every fight. It seemed comical enough  - on enough different levels - that I thought it might lighten the mood.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your response was even better though - :smileyvery-happy:  - Thanks!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Shalwin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zald wrote:<BR><BR><BR>2. The biggest change will be with stuns. Stuns currently allow us time to let the tank pet gain good agro AND stops the mob from hurting the pet for a good amount of time. That's a HUGE part of soloing tough mobs. Send in tank, stun mob, load up DFs and DoTs, and if you can beat the mob you should notice that your pets health is green while the mobs is dropped to yellow or lower. Then just heal the pet, amd if you're L50 <STRONG><FONT color=#66ff33>GO GET YOUR HEAL STAFF</FONT></STRONG>. 40% HPt heal on top of your pets normal 10k Hpts is a pet that should NEVER die vs anything that should remotely be concidered soloable.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm fairly new to the whole necro scene, but I'm about to hit 50.  Of what staff do you speak?  Is this something I need to pull off serveral 4 group raids for, or is it something I could quest myself with the help of a guild group on occasion?</P> <P>If you know of any other "must have" necro items, I'd love to hear about them.  I doubt I'll ever have more than one group available, but could probably have most of them 60+.</P> <P>Thanks in advance for any advice!<BR></P><p>Message Edited by Shalwin on <span class=date_text>05-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:26 PM</span>

[evhallion]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rousso wrote:<BR> <DIV><STRONG>You were never the one who was suspose to be doing the bulk of the damage, it was always suspose to be your pet. You without your pet have the DPS of a healer (Fury maybe). So glad you get all fuzzy about your T3 dps. And if you wish to see your true parse give your pet your name so it will combine your dps as it is intended to be. </STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>:smileysurprised:</DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff3300>Dude - that was sarcasm</FONT>. I figured the over-the-top, effusive excitement about my absolutely-[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing-lutely lame-[Removed for Content] personal DPS would clue most people in. Woohoo I am excited that my assassin pet is (or will soon be) so lame that even <EM>I </EM>can out DPS it. The topic of the post was "positive light,"  but since I can see nothing positive in the upcomming nerfs - I decided to make a (at least IMO) humourous, sarcastic response. It could be possible that some truly clueless necro might be upset by seeing his pet out DPS him every fight. It seemed comical enough  - on enough different levels - that I thought it might lighten the mood.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your response was even better though - :smileyvery-happy:  - Thanks!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I'm sorry Rousso, that went totally over my head. Reading that again with the sarcasm in mind it was quite funny. Now if you'll excuse me I have a foot to pull out of my mouth. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

[Nainitsuj]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Who the F stole my Name wrote:<BR> <DIV>Negative light:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1: Scout pet aggro has been reduced</DIV> <DIV>2: Our scout pet is now as bad as our mage pet.</DIV> <DIV>3: The "Necros way overpowered" posts have gotten what they wanted.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Whoop te do.  The assassin pet has been nerfed.  In instance runs my mage pet does nicely.  I can just cast life taps while he does the work and still be at the top of the parse list vs wizards and rangers.</P> <P>In a raid my mage pet burns down his power, I implode him and summon another.  Just like I would with the assassin pet.  Whoop te do.</P> <P>You know how I look at this?  I see it as "Thank the gods.  Now I don't have to search for my assassin M1 pet."  Two out of 3 being master isn't too bad.</P>

[Za]

Fleet, I'm not going to argue with you. If you haven't ever raided... or you can't use pets effectively, thats your problem. But AoEs don't stop you if you TIME your pet casts around mob AoEs. Your primary pets aren't a problem if you know how to pull them out of AoE range... or heck just let em die and recast them. My char build is just avg, and my guild wizards aren't complete morons, so to say that me constantly out DPSing them by 40% is a fluke is you in denial. That is whats bullox.<p>Message Edited by Zald on <span class=date_text>05-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:37 AM</span>

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>Rousso wrote:<DIV><STRONG>You were never the one who was suspose to be doing the bulk of the damage, it was always suspose to be your pet. You without your pet have the DPS of a healer (Fury maybe). So glad you get all fuzzy about your T3 dps. And if you wish to see your true parse give your pet your name so it will combine your dps as it is intended to be. </STRONG></DIV><DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV><DIV>:smileysurprised:</DIV><DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV><DIV>Dude - that was sarcasm. I figured the over-the-top, effusive excitement about my absolutely-[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing-lutely lame-[Removed for Content] personal DPS would clue most people in. Woohoo I am excited that my assassin pet is (or will soon be) so lame that even <EM>I </EM>can out DPS it. The topic of the post was "positive light,"  but since I can see nothing positive in the upcomming nerfs - I decided to make a (at least IMO) humourous, sarcastic response. It could be possible that some truly clueless necro might be upset by seeing his pet out DPS him every fight. It seemed comical enough  - on enough different levels - that I thought it might lighten the mood.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Your response was even better though - :smileyvery-happy:  - Thanks!</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><hr></blockquote>Well, actually... The summoner class is not supposed to be completely nothing without pets.We're not supposed to be a click-send in pet... take a nap, class. We're supposed to be pet managers, not slave owners.

[evhallion]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zald wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rousso wrote:<BR> <DIV><STRONG>You were never the one who was suspose to be doing the bulk of the damage, it was always suspose to be your pet. You without your pet have the DPS of a healer (Fury maybe). So glad you get all fuzzy about your T3 dps. And if you wish to see your true parse give your pet your name so it will combine your dps as it is intended to be. </STRONG></DIV><BR> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV><BR> <DIV>:smileysurprised:</DIV><BR> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV><BR> <DIV>Dude - that was sarcasm. I figured the over-the-top, effusive excitement about my absolutely-[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing-lutely lame-[Removed for Content] personal DPS would clue most people in. Woohoo I am excited that my assassin pet is (or will soon be) so lame that even <EM>I </EM>can out DPS it. The topic of the post was "positive light,"  but since I can see nothing positive in the upcomming nerfs - I decided to make a (at least IMO) humourous, sarcastic response. It could be possible that some truly clueless necro might be upset by seeing his pet out DPS him every fight. It seemed comical enough  - on enough different levels - that I thought it might lighten the mood.</DIV><BR> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <DIV>Your response was even better though - :smileyvery-happy:  - Thanks!</DIV><BR> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Well, actually... The summoner class is not supposed to be completely nothing without pets.<BR><BR>We're not supposed to be a click-send in pet... take a nap, class. We're supposed to be pet managers, not slave owners.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Did I say we were "nothing without pets?" I said the bulk of our damage comes from our pets and we were T3 dps at best without them. Do you have an arguement for that?  Now on a personal note, I'm glad you <STRONG>think you know</STRONG> what the class is suspose to be since you joined us after LU 13 but those of us playing necro since launch have little need of you trying to explain it to us. I know you feel this need to input your opinion on every subject but it gets really old after awhile. But opinions are like....... Hmmmm can't cuss on here so what's a good synonym for the word I need? Oh I know, "Opinions are like Zalds and everybody has one" and we'd be happy if you kept yours to yourself sometimes.

[Za]

What a [Removed for Content] some evhallions are. Look dill weed, I've played a nec from the time I wanted to... which you assume is LU13, I honestly don't know when I started, but I didn't start one cuz they were soo ubber. Only a real evhallion-hole would do that.As I recall... Frogloks were released well before LU13 though... so I guess I do qualify as one of the gifted grandfather necros of the pre-intelligence age.I'm done trying to argue with people with brains the size of their [Removed for Content], so if you don't like my opionion, put me on ignore, I don't like talking down to people anyway..... and for the sound minded ammong us... If Necros are T3... all by themselves... then having a T2 - T3 damage pet should at least lift us above that. Mathmatically, we can't go DOWN the tier by adding damage. I never said necros shouldn't out damage our pets all the time, but we SHOULD at least outdamage our tank pet in defensive stance.<p>Message Edited by Zald on <span class=date_text>05-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:21 AM</span>

[evhallion]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zald wrote:<BR>What a [Removed for Content] some evhallions are. Look dill weed, I've played a nec from the time I wanted to... which you assume is LU13, I honestly don't know when I started, but I didn't start one cuz they were soo ubber. Only a real evhallion-hole would do that.<BR><BR>As I recall... Frogloks were released well before LU13 though... so I guess I do qualify as one of the gifted grandfather necros of the pre-intelligence age.<BR><BR>I'm done trying to argue with people with brains the size of their [Removed for Content], so if you don't like my opionion, put me on ignore, I don't like talking down to people anyway.<BR><BR>.... and for the sound minded ammong us... <BR>If Necros are T3... all by themselves... then having a T2 - T3 damage pet should at least lift us above that. Mathmatically, we can't go DOWN the tier by adding damage. <BR><BR>I never said necros shouldn't out damage our pets all the time, but we SHOULD at least outdamage our tank pet in defensive stance. <P>Message Edited by Zald on <SPAN class=date_text>05-24-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:21 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Heh, did I hit a nerve? What do you mean you don't know when you started? There is that nice little thing on station players that tells you the creation date of your character, so lets see it, we all know when LU 13 was released. Let me guess, you don't have that "first" necro anymore and the one you play now was actually made after LU13 but of course you had one before that. Or maybe your excuse is you don't want us to know who your character is cause us "people with brains the size of their [Removed for Content]" might harrass you in game, yea that's a good excuse. Your nothing more than a flavor of the month fanboi who thinks he can tell the true players of a class what's what. I've seen your type plenty of times and you don't care about any one class, it gets nerfed and you're off to the next flavor so you can be uber. So the "positive light" of this nerf will be seeing you leave to play your next class and "enlighten" their forums with your "wisdom" of their class, which i'm sure you'll know better than them after playing it for a week or so.<p>Message Edited by evhallion on <span class=date_text>05-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:43 PM</span>

[Naud]

<DIV> Ive only got one thing to say CAREBEARS=nerfs</DIV> <DIV>I especially love all the little stealth nerfs they threw on us over the time.  Well Im not here to stir it up, but that being said, Soe will always go against it's real player base for what they somehow think will make the game more appealable for all the classes... what a joke.  Side note I cancelled my sub too but mostly due to RL, but SOE def. didnt make my arguement better for keeping my account open.  Too bad it was nice while it lasted.</DIV>

[Tokam]

<P>Jesus [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing christ - why have they nerfed the dps of our t7 zerker tank pet (we all know how zerkers go about maintainging aggro)</P> <P>Why has the dps of our dumbfire pets been reduced further? (and why are they becoming less and less usefull - as more named ^^^ and even trash ^^^ pich up AoEs to kill them. Were they not supposed to be DoTs with an pet graphic?)</P> <P>Personal dps reductions and a reduction in the aggro managment of our tank pet (which was [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] to begin with). Great.</P>

[Fle]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zald wrote:<BR>Fleet, I'm not going to argue with you. If you haven't ever raided... or you can't use pets effectively, thats your problem. But AoEs don't stop you if you TIME your pet casts around mob AoEs. Your primary pets aren't a problem if you know how to pull them out of AoE range... or heck just let em die and recast them. <BR><BR>My char build is just avg, and my guild wizards aren't complete morons, so to say that me constantly out DPSing them by 40% is a fluke is you in denial. That is whats bullox. <P>Message Edited by Zald on <SPAN class=date_text>05-23-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:37 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yer just let em die and recast them. While doing this our dps has dropped to practically nothing. I do pull my pets off and let them heal but you cant save them all the time, not with the ridiculous dmg some mobs put out. And again while the pets are healing up you have lost dps again. So in encounters like this if your still coming out on top i can only think the rest of your raid is slacking / asleep and your parser is borked.</DIV>

[Echgar]

Several of you need to find more constructive ways of disagreeing with each other.  This thread has become far too personal and as a result, I need to close it.<a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=faq&message.id=25" target=_blank>Forum Rules of Conduct</a><div></div>