Devs, A challenge for you: Explain "Balance" on a Gimped Class

[Murdaben]

<DIV>(this is a repost fromthe abilities forum for those of you not over there, or unaware of the discussion there)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm calling the devs out on that "just trying to balance things" statement.  At best it was an ignorant statement, at worst it was a convenient lie.  But whatever the source that produced the "balance" answer our brave Customer Relations rep was was given by the devs, be it genuine ignorance, malice or simply self-serving evasiveness, the fact of the matter is the whole "just balancing things" argument looks <B><I>dead wrong</I></B> to most coercers when it comes to things like this.<BR><BR>As I show below, saying the reason is "balance", without <I>any</I> supporting reasoning or facts doesnt cut it - it sits there by itself and <I>looks like a lie</I> from the devs to the coercers - perhaps to mask a mistake they made and dont want to admit, perhaps in hopes that it will quiet us down.  We are all human, and a dev being defensive is a natural first reaction, especially from a coder that just got popped in a design screw-up.  I know because I have to mentor green coders from time to time and this sounds just like that sort of thing that I have to correct (its hard to get a designer to admit his design has flaws - especially once its in production because design flaws are disproportionately expensive to fix once the code has been written).  Please note I didin't say it <I>was</I> a lie, because that would be a personal attack and I'm not going there (Iand don't anyone else go there either).  Its just that it <I>looks like</I> one in the absence of supporting facts and some sort of explanation of how nerfing coercers is an act of  "balancing" our class.  Especially when you consider the following:<BR><BR><B><FONT color=#ff0000><I>WHAT BALANCE</I></FONT><FONT color=#ff0000> are you trying to achieve?  </FONT><BR></B><BR><FONT color=#ffff00><I>Were we encroaching on another class's signature ability?</I></FONT><FONT color=#ffff00> </FONT><FONT color=#ff0000> </FONT><FONT color=#ff0000><B>No.</B></FONT>  <BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00><I>Do we have a unique, properly functioning and well requested class signature ability?</I></FONT>  <FONT color=#ff0000><B>No.</B></FONT>  <BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00><I>Were we encroaching on another class's group role?</I></FONT> <FONT color=#ff0000> </FONT><B><FONT color=#ff0000>No</FONT>.</B>  <BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00><I>Do we have a unique group role?</I></FONT>  <FONT color=#ff0000><B>No.</B></FONT>  <BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00><I>Were we too effective, too easy to play</I></FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>?</FONT> <FONT color=#ff0000><B>No.</B></FONT>  <BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00><I>Do we solo too quickly and easily</I></FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>?</FONT><FONT color=#ff0000> </FONT><FONT color=#ff0000><B>No.</B></FONT>  <BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00><I>Were we mandatory for raids and nobody else can fill in</I></FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>?</FONT><FONT color=#ff0000><B> No</B></FONT><FONT color=#ff0000>.</FONT>  <BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00><I>Do we bring anything to the MT or MA groups in a raid that isnt better served by another class</I></FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>?</FONT><B> <FONT color=#ff0000>No</FONT></B><FONT color=#ff0000>.</FONT>  <BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00><I>Were we allowing groups or raids  to overpower content that was way above the intended level</I></FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>?</FONT><FONT color=#ff0000> </FONT><FONT color=#ff0000><B>No</B></FONT>.<BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00><I>Do we have any major ability to help a raid that other classes do not</I></FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>?</FONT> <FONT color=#ff0000><B>No</B></FONT><FONT color=#ff0000>.</FONT><BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00><I>Was there a game-breaking ability we had (other than the well-known bug with TM spell interaction)</I></FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>?</FONT> <FONT color=#ff0000><B>No</B></FONT><FONT color=#ff0000>.</FONT><BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00><I>Do we produce too much DPS</I></FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>?</FONT> <FONT color=#ff0000><B>No</B></FONT><FONT color=#ff0000>.</FONT><BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00><I>Were there too many coercers and you wanted to balance out the numbers in the high level player population</I></FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>?</FONT> <FONT color=#ff0000><B>No</B></FONT><FONT color=#ff0000>.</FONT><BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00><I>Do we have significant numbers in the active high level player population</I></FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>? </FONT><FONT color=#ff0000><B>No</B></FONT><FONT color=#ff0000>.</FONT><BR><BR><FONT color=#ff0000 size=4><B>How did reducing the effectiveness of an already ineffective class balance ANYTHING in the game</B></FONT>? <BR><BR>This power pool cut from the reworking of Signet was a direct hit to the capability of the coercer class to do anything - a 10% hit to power on a class that is already highly ineffective to begin with! (And it even hit guys in their 40's who are losing chunks of their power pool)<BR><BR>Explain that before you ask us for reasons to undo it.  We need to understand WHY the devs cut us before we can explain why they shouldn't have - whats thier context and reasoning behind the nerf?  Why did they think we needed a nerf? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Asking Coercers for answers before we know the context of the question is very unfair of Sony's staff.<BR><BR>Fair is fair.  Tell us <U>how and why</U> this cut (<I>and all the other debilitating things we have had)</I> is "balancing" to a class that is game-wide recongnized as the hardest class to play and the rarest class around.<BR></DIV> <DIV>How does stealth nerfing (you didnt announce that part!) an already badly hurting class "balance" it?</DIV>

[Azariah_1]

<P>What was the stealth nerfing? I never heard about that... </P> <P>~~Azariah Olon'Rae~42 Coercer and Lunar Butterfly of House Reamorda. Antonia Bayle</P>

[Usermaat]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Azariah_1 wrote:<BR> <P>What was the stealth nerfing? I never heard about that... </P> <P>~~Azariah Olon'Rae~42 Coercer and Lunar Butterfly of House Reamorda. Antonia Bayle</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I believe the stealth nerf refers to the fact that we used to have 2 buffs. One gave a good amount of power and cost 1 concentration point and the other used to buff int/agi and give some resists. Now the original spell buffs power not at all and buffs int/agi and the other only buffs resists. This was a stealth nerf for 2 reasons. 1) It was not announced in the patch notes that they were removing the power buff from the spell and 2) instead of 2concentration slots to give int/agi + resists + power pool we now have to use 2 concentration slots to give int/agi + resists.  If they had simply removed the one spell from the game, we would gained a concentration slot and lost no buffing ability. This of course would have greatly imbalanced the game and made coercers feared throughout any newbie zone. </DIV>

[Karde Shar]

<DIV>One of the attractions of the coercers was to be able to buff the group's max power by 1000/member for a grand total of 6000 power.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We can now buff approximately only 1500 power isntead of 6000.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This severely affects what is also arguably our best maruis spell, the level 58 spell Channel which was a group power split.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not impressed with mindbend - the stun says 4 seconds, it seems to last 1 second even with adept III.</DIV> <DIV>I'm not impressed with the level 55 spell - memory wipe? - its just another too long cast time stun....</DIV> <DIV>I'm not impressed now with Channel due to t he nerf to our power pools.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When one compares our marquis abilities even to our sister class, it is disheartening.  (Did you know they get a skill which reduces the power costs of spells/arts by a percentage? effectively expanding the power pool of the group?)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've stuck with the Coercer.  I was very vocal during the DOF Beta and put a lot of work into making a fair and balanced class but I don't understand the logic or vision.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When I see classes like summoners with defensive pets, berzerkers, and dirges consistently do 300 DPS and me averaging 90 DPS on single targets and 200 DPS on groups of 5+ its very frustrating.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even WITH a permo charm spell, I don't think this fixes our problems.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe if they removed the cast times from some of our spell lines like Haruspex, Spell Lash, all Stun LInes (mindbend, mindwipe, confoundment, perplexity), and Tyrannical Mind, it wouldn't be nearly as bad?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And why do we have to have 2 separate lines for Haruspex and Spell Lash anyways? Why couldn't they have been the same spell and just damage the critter every time they cast or melee 100% of the time?  This would be an effective way to raise our DPS while not overdoing it (muffling mob would still muffle our DPS score).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just some ideas....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Karde</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Bloodtoo]

Devs don't read this forum btw.  If they do they have yet to reply.  If you want a dev you see your comment best to post in spell feedback.  Off topic - Good to see you again Karde.

[PigLick]

Moorgard has posted once in this forum. It didn't show up on the deve tracker though, because instead of making his own post he edited someone else's post and placed his comments at the end. Doesn't prove they read them regularly of course, but they do get at least some attention. PigLick <div></div>

[Karde Shar]

<P>I'm still around playing the Coercer.  Level 56.4.</P> <P>Levelling up a zerker on the side though, more my cup of tea I guess (i play my coercer like a tank, lord help us all!)</P> <P>Ah well...</P>

[Tanatus]

<P>If think any CC in this game needed think again ... For a long time I tought that good way handle some mobs like say Abizel (sp) for last step of carpet quest in a classical way - enchanter handle adds - MT get Djin DPS cook him.... Jeez I was very wrong ....</P> <P>If you have situation like that all you need group 3 person warlock warden zerker. Mob go down so fast that you simply dont getting damage because of that.... I seen already many time in DOF expantion that DPS >>>> CC big time and if SOE for some reason will remove coercer from game and add say FT25 item in game NOONE will notice any changes</P>

[Bloodtoo]

<span><blockquote><hr>Tanatus wrote:<div></div> <p>If think any CC in this game needed think again ... For a long time I tought that good way handle some mobs like say Abizel (sp) for last step of carpet quest in a classical way - enchanter handle adds - MT get Djin DPS cook him.... Jeez I was very wrong ....</p> <p>If you have situation like that all you need group 3 person warlock warden zerker. Mob go down so fast that you simply dont getting damage because of that.... I seen already many time in DOF expantion that DPS >>>> CC big time and if SOE for some reason will remove coercer from game and add say FT25 item in game NOONE will notice any changes</p><hr></blockquote>OMG Tanatus that is so sad.  I wish I didn't agree with you but I do.</span>

[pera]

<div></div>I just wanted to throw my comment in here about a the 'orignal group role'  Heck there is only at most 4 differnt rolls and 2 of them are kind of the mixed Tank, Healer, dps/util. In almost no group i've been in has someone asked for  a 'guard', instead of just a thank after LU13.  All of the 4 group roles can cover several differnt classes.  I know that i am interchangable with a chanter,  our dps are about the same, our mana regen is the same, chanter have much better offencive buffs, my definsive buff is on the verge of useless, and chanters have much much better CC than  I.  Yes, some of your abilites are gimped and they SHOULD be fixed, but saying you dont have a place in a group is just  silly. <div></div><p>Message Edited by perano on <span class=date_text>10-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:59 AM</span>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>perano wrote:<div></div>I just wanted to throw my comment in here about a the 'orignal group role'  Heck there is only at most 4 differnt rolls and 2 of them are kind of the mixed Tank, Healer, dps/util. In almost no group i've been in has someone asked for  a 'guard', instead of just a thank after LU13.  All of the 4 group roles can cover several differnt classes.  I know that i am interchangable with a chanter,  our dps are about the same, our mana regen is the same, chanter have much better offencive buffs, my definsive buff is on the verge of useless, and chanters have much much better CC than  I.  Yes, some of your abilites are gimped and they SHOULD be fixed, but saying you dont have a place in a group is just  silly. <div></div><p>Message Edited by perano on <span class=date_text>10-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:59 AM</span><hr></blockquote>Having place in a GROUP is different than having a place in a group in a RAID.Every class is very balanced in the group situation. However, once you turn to the RAID area enchanters lose out on everything that makes them, well enchanters!

[pera]

<div></div>Yeah, i agree with you Pinski,  you guys definetly need a big boost to you CC thats for sure, i mean its already pretty nice, but the whole charm thing with the scaling down of the pet is just foolish, would be nice if they fixed that.  I being a half bread of a chanter and something, not really sure what the other part is :-p,  I do like to use my charm in a save yoru [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] kind of thing in groups but it so unreliable thats it really has to be a do or die.  But if thats the case mez normlay comes in a heck more usefull.    hehe i wish i had multiple mezes like you guys :-p What would be the harm if chanters could mez non-named epic mobs? <div></div><p>Message Edited by perano on <span class=date_text>10-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:25 PM</span>

[Tanatus]

<P>Perano ...</P> <P>here is a deal - coercer is part of enchanters class and those part of mage archtype which is DPS branch of EQ2 unlike scouts who been utility brach ... (well at least originally that was an idea). But lets cut the crap and put simply it this way - any group need tank, healer, DPS or strong CC + DPS - both type of group viable in EQ2 but guess what coercer is NOT DPS is NOT CCm NOT healer and definitly NOT tankl - hence for ANY group coercer is burden and not viable member. The only 1 thing coercer is good at - is to be used for duo-box as crak-bot and root-bot.</P> <P>Of you DO realize that coercers DPS in maximum DPS mode do not exceed melee DPS of templar and certanly far behind DPS of fury or warden.... You also should realize that SOE and Moorgard as speaker of behalf SOE state LOUD and CLEAR - coercer DPS should be same as DPS conjurer .... Ya right roflmao - cojurer DPS is at least 6-8X time higher then coercers. Vs, single target coercer do around 90DPS vs. 1000DPS of conjurer and vs. group coercer can get upward 200DPS..... while conjurer do 2000DPS - and THAT is a big problem. Lol heck fighters do more DPS then coercer bruiser/zerker do vs. single target 300+DPS vs. 90DPS of coercer bear in mind fighters are tier 4 of DPS and coercer is tier 3 - SAME AS SUMMONERS</P>

[Brocc]

<span><blockquote><hr>Bloodtooth wrote:If you want a dev you see your comment best to post in spell feedback.<hr></blockquote>And pretend to be a disgruntled Guardian <i>*smiles*</i></span><div></div>

[pera]

Thanks for the info :-p , i'm starting to get into leading raids so I'm tring to learn as much about each class as i can. <p></p>

[Ghibli_]

<P></P> <P><BR></P> <HR> Tanatus wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Perano ...</P> <P>here is a deal - coercer is part of enchanters class and those part of mage archtype which is DPS branch of EQ2 unlike scouts who been utility brach ... (well at least originally that was an idea). But lets cut the crap and put simply it this way - any group need tank, healer, DPS or strong CC + DPS - both type of group viable in EQ2 but guess what coercer is NOT DPS is NOT CCm NOT healer and definitly NOT tankl - hence for ANY group coercer is burden and not viable member. The only 1 thing coercer is good at - is to be used for duo-box as crak-bot and root-bot.</P> <P>Of you DO realize that coercers DPS in maximum DPS mode do not exceed melee DPS of templar and certanly far behind DPS of fury or warden.... You also should realize that SOE and Moorgard as speaker of behalf SOE state LOUD and CLEAR - coercer DPS should be same as DPS conjurer .... Ya right roflmao - cojurer DPS is at least 6-8X time higher then coercers. Vs, single target coercer do around 90DPS vs. 1000DPS of conjurer and vs. group coercer can get upward 200DPS..... while conjurer do 2000DPS - and THAT is a big problem. Lol heck fighters do more DPS then coercer bruiser/zerker do vs. single target 300+DPS vs. 90DPS of coercer bear in mind fighters are tier 4 of DPS and coercer is tier 3 - SAME AS SUMMONERS</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>This is the most misinformed post ever...</P> <P><BR>-If you do DPS like a meleeing templar, there's something seriously wrong with your toon. If I go pure DPS I'll do 150 to 250dps on a single target, and 250dps+ on multiple mobs (350+ if they're lots of easy downarrows).</P> <P> </P> <P>-Conjurers doing 2000dps? I think you should find yourself a new parser dude, cuz yours obviously isn't working right...</P> <P> </P> <P>-Where did you read all mages are supposed to be a DPS class? The main purpose of coercers has been, and always will be, utility. Don't like it? Reroll instead of whining here. Both scouts and mages are a combo of DPS and utility. Some more DPS, some more utility.</P> <P> </P> <P>-"Moorgard as speaker of behalf SOE state LOUD and CLEAR - coercer DPS should be same as DPS conjurer"...</P> <P>Get your facts straight man: <A href="http://eq2vault.ign.com/View.php?view=asksoe.Detail&category_select_id=43" target=_blank>http://eq2vault.ign.com/View.php?view=asksoe.Detail&category_select_id=43</A> </P> <P>allow me to paste it for ya:</P> <P>Third group:</P> <UL> <LI>Coercer/Illusionist, Conjurer/Necromancer <STRONG><U><FONT color=#ff0000>(using tank pet)</FONT></U></STRONG></LI></UL> <P> </P> <P>There are DEFINATELY issues with the DPS tiers (fury does too much to be tier 5, brawlers does too much to be tier 3, assassin doesn't do enough to be tier 1, ...) but coercers are exactly where they should be: in the middle somewhere, doing moderate DPS when not working crowdcontrol.</P>

[Encantador]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ghibli_EQ wrote:<BR> <P></P> <P>...............</P> <P>There are DEFINATELY issues with the DPS tiers (fury does too much to be tier 5, brawlers does too much to be tier 3, assassin doesn't do enough to be tier 1, ...) but coercers are exactly where they should be: in the middle somewhere, doing moderate DPS when not working crowdcontrol.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You should be less inflammatory. Tan may exaggerate a bit, but he is more right than you are. I am only 54 so I can only comment on the low to mid 50s where I see coercer dps below all summoners with any of their pets. Over quite a few parses I find they are usually behind both the pet and the summoner. Coercers are well below the middle when we should be above the middle. Over a long set of fights no mid-50s coercer will maintain over 200 DPS and the only classes the coercer will out damage are the healers. Even guardians and pallies WHILE tanking will do 200 to 300 DPS.</P> <P>Coercers are meant to be TOP of tier 3. Add them up ... 8 subclasses are meant to be better (and 2 of those only when using their damage pets), 14 are meant to be worse DPS, and 1 equal.  As it stands now there are  17 with better DPS and some the 6 who are lower can keep up or exceed coercer damage if they do not have any healing duties.</P> <P>Looking at the spells we get from 55 to 60 I do not see where I will get a massive DPS boost to put me ahead of other classes. I DO see melee characters getting better weapons and raising their DPS without levelling. </P> <P>If as you claim coercers are exactly where they should be, then I presume you are calling for nerfs to most of the other classes out there. This is not a good thing to suggest.</P> <P> </P>

[Karde Shar]

<P></P> <P>I do agree with Ghibli here, Perano's claims are a bit over the top.</P> <P> </P> <P>Ghibli's DPS numbers for the Coercer are accurate BUT situational and only reflect the fact that he is in a group and not casting any stuns outside of Psychic Wail (nor is his group) or any type of muffle (like stifles) that would reduce his DPS.   Yes, we have to choose utility versus DPS....</P> <P> </P> <P>And maybe Ghibli mignt also agree that these numbers are in fact, the maximum sustainable DPS for this class.</P> <P> </P> <P>Playing solo, I would suspect these numbers would be much lower more along the lines of 70-90 DPS as one would have to rely on roots and our DOTS/Nukes (ha!).</P> <P> </P> <P>In raids, I probably average around 100-120 DPS.</P> <P> </P> <P>Can we at least agree on these basic facts for this class without looking over the fence?</P> <P> </P> <P></P><p>Message Edited by Karde Sharke on <span class=date_text>10-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:33 AM</span>

[Tanatus]

<P>Ghibli lol dude you should get better conjurer ... 2K DPS is vs. EPIC groups not vs. regular groups.... My warlock lvl 60 and he is my main (obviously since I practically retied coercer till time charm get fixed). Any allow me to enlight you how much do warlock on EPIC encounter then warlock have enouth targets to hit....</P> <P>Devastation with raid buffed int at Adept 3 score 560-1031 per taget 5 time up to 5 targets recirle is 49s (4s cast 45 recast) - 400DPS</P> <P>Nil Absolution same condition except spell quality Master 1 1540-2940 up to 5 targets recircling is 16s (4s cast 12 recast) - 700DPS</P> <P>Dark Nebula same Master 1 742-1316 up to 5 targets recircling is 18.5s (3.5s cast 15s recast) total DPS 285DPS</P> <P>Boundless Fury Adept 3 234-430 tic 4 time targets unlimited true PBAE recircling 10s (2s cast 8s recast) total DPS (5 target assuming) 664 DPS</P> <P>Netherous Realm - 500-640 damage to any target within area then ever target damaged by spell .... raid wide recircling is 90s (30s duration 60s recast) - spells goes off not just from warlock spells it goes off from ANY poison based attacks</P> <P>Corrupted Gift ~80-160 damage every time target take damage raid wide</P> <P>Total DPS of warlock goes wayyyy above 2.5K total dps of good conjurer goes above 2K</P> <P>Dude lastly I true hate to brake it for you but Necromancer TANK pet ALONG do more DPS vs. single target then Coercer roflmao. Dude zerker in TANK mode half sleep will outdamage coercer ....</P> <P>Coercers are mages and as such always meant to do DPS first and everything esle as a secondary function - that was selling point of EQ2 dude - every class within archtype can do primary archtype job... Coercer cannt - it was brief and shine moment wayyyyyy back to release then coercer at level range 20 to 37 was able out damage every single class in game... Once I realized that SOE arent going to fix coercer I said [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] it and made warlock - and been happy after. My warlock atm lvl 60, my coercer is lvl 50.9 but tell you what - playing my twinki necro lvl 26 atm more fun then playing lvl 50.9 coercer who have most of his t5 spells as masters</P>

[Ghibli_]

<P>My coercer: <A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=169761111" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=169761111</A></P> <P>My warlock: <A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/player.vm?characterId=125917111" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/player.vm?characterId=125917111</A></P> <P> </P> <P>I'm no warlock noob dude, I know what they can do... They are AoE machines, and on a multimob raid encounter they will do a sick amount of damage. I won't comment on the accuracy of your theoretic calculations, since I haven't played Liostaef since DoF was released and he's still lvl50. But I do know 100% sure a conjurer simply cannot achieve 2k dps. I don't know what parser you use but I use combatstats, and usually parse every raid we do (/whoraid ftw!). Never have I seen any class do 2k dps on an epic fight that doesn't come with 50 adds... </P> <P> </P> <P>Anyway, I stick with my point... if you made a coercer to do high DPS, you chose the wrong class.. we are utility, we always have been and we always will be. Being a mage does not mean being DPS, being a scout certainly doesnt mean being utitily class. Wiz/Warlock/Necro/Conjurer are the DPS mages, Coercer/Illu are utility mages. Ranger/Assassin/Swash/Brigand are DPS scouts, Troub/Dirge are utility/dps scouts. And Coercer/Illu are better at utility than Troub/Dirge, Troub/Dirge do better DPS, but overall their concept is similar: Provide nifty improvements to the group (buffs, stuns, stifles, hate in-/decreasers, ...).</P> <P> </P> <P>You are right though. Moorguard's post on DPS tiers is one big joke, and very few classes are where they should be. Brawlers do way too much, Assassin's are nowhere near 1st tier, furies are also doing ALOT more than they should be, and the list goes on...  All I'm saying is that coercer DPS is not horrible considering we are not a DPS class. It could use a slight upgrade, but I'm just as happy with the damage I'm doing now... The nerfs on our utility bother me MUCH more. Taking 700power from our buffs, nerfing stuns/stifles, our crappy charm, and the new changes on TA, THAT's stuff to be unhappy about!</P>

[Signal9]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ghibli_EQ wrote:<BR> <P>My coercer: <A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=169761111" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=169761111</A></P> <P>My warlock: <A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/player.vm?characterId=125917111" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/player.vm?characterId=125917111</A></P> <P> </P> <P>I'm no warlock noob dude, I know what they can do... They are AoE machines, and on a multimob raid encounter they will do a sick amount of damage. I won't comment on the accuracy of your theoretic calculations, since I haven't played Liostaef since DoF was released and he's still lvl50. But I do know 100% sure a conjurer simply cannot achieve 2k dps. I don't know what parser you use but I use combatstats, and usually parse every raid we do (/whoraid ftw!). Never have I seen any class do 2k dps on an epic fight that doesn't come with 50 adds... </P> <P> </P> <P>Anyway, I stick with my point... if you made a coercer to do high DPS, you chose the wrong class.. we are utility, we always have been and we always will be. Being a mage does not mean being DPS, being a scout certainly doesnt mean being utitily class. Wiz/Warlock/Necro/Conjurer are the DPS mages, Coercer/Illu are utility mages. Ranger/Assassin/Swash/Brigand are DPS scouts, Troub/Dirge are utility/dps scouts. And Coercer/Illu are better at utility than Troub/Dirge, Troub/Dirge do better DPS, but overall their concept is similar: Provide nifty improvements to the group (buffs, stuns, stifles, hate in-/decreasers, ...).</P> <P> </P> <P>You are right though. Moorguard's post on DPS tiers is one big joke, and very few classes are where they should be. Brawlers do way too much, Assassin's are nowhere near 1st tier, furies are also doing ALOT more than they should be, and the list goes on...  All I'm saying is that coercer DPS is not horrible considering we are not a DPS class. It could use a slight upgrade, but I'm just as happy with the damage I'm doing now... The nerfs on our utility bother me MUCH more. Taking 700power from our buffs, nerfing stuns/stifles, our crappy charm, and the new changes on TA, THAT's stuff to be unhappy about!</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So the concept is totally wrong?</P> <P> </P> <P>Bruisers, Brawlers, and monks can't tank because they're 'offensive' classes?</P> <P>Furies, and Inquisitors can't heal good because they're 'offensive' type priests?</P> <P> </P> <P>That's not the case, but Coercers, and Illusionists simply  can't fill the DPS role at all.</P> <P> </P> <P>What you ignore is that ALL mages have some form of CC, some form of power regen, and some form of DPS.  Because that is a mage's role.  You seem to think that the Enchanter subclass is all about utility, and no DPS.  Where does this idea come from?  Can you show me some official postings relating this information?  You are laboring under your own misconception here.</P> <P> </P> <P>It has been stated, and restated by the Dev's that this class is a Mage.  And while there is more emphasis on buffing the group as a portion of our DPS contribution (as opposed to Illu debuffing the mob), we would dtill be able to fill the DPS role we were designed for.  That is not the case.</P> <P> </P> <P>Please show me a lvl 45 troubodour that can be out-DPS'd by a lvl 25 scout of any other class )Assassin, brigand, swash...).  How about priests?  No, that particular disparity only exists in the Mage archetype, and with enchanters specifically.  It's a gross disparity in abilities.</P> <P> </P> <P>Yes, I expected DPS from my Coercer.  I did not expect to get Ice Comet, but I did expect to be able to charm a beastie to apply that DPS for me.  THIS IS HOW A COERCER SHOULD BE DOING DAMAGE.  CHARMED MOBS FOR SPIKE DPS.</P> <P> </P> <P>Wizards nuke.  Hard.  Warlocks AoE.  Hard.  Necro's, and conjurors can pet-tank.  Illusionists can, if neccessary, pet-tank.  Coercers TRY to pet tank.<BR></P>

[Nerj]

<DIV>Ghibli_EQ if you have not seen a good conjurer at work you are missing something. Since, DOF came out Warlocks have been complaining that they do more DPS then them. I have seen a Conjurer a level lower then me wipe out groups of ^^^blue and ^^blue MOBS (four in a row) and hardly dip into their Mana pools.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Enchanters are not a utility class, they are mainly a DPS class with CC ability. Moorgard stated that we wear VLA armor in exchange for the DPS and CC we are supposed to do. However, our CC abillities are needed in VERY RARE cases. Our power regen, for most classes, can be offset with food/drink. This is especially true, since to kill most MOBS requires less power for the other classes then it does for ours. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>The real Utillity class is the Scout class, with the BARD class having the most utillity. If YOU wanted to be a utillity class that is the one to have chosen. They can wear medium armor to offset their DPS reduction due to having higher utillity.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>The main reason for the change to our abilty to increase everyones mana pool is the same one the used to nerf our power regen capabillities way back. They ODN'T want us to use these things. However, they have NOT replaced them with corresponding changes to our DPS to offset those losses. The mana pool buff is NOT coming back and our mana regen capabillities are NOT going to be increased, BARDS better anyway. Therefore they ONLY thing left to us is in what Mages are supposed to shine in and that is in DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BTW -- our roots are going to be be nerfed too. Meaning that each of our pathetic bits of damage will have a chance to break the root and since we need to attack longer then any other Mage class, our breaks are more likely going to kill us then any other class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S. -> If they really want us to be a utillity class; the best way to tell us, is to have us wear plate (like inquistors can) and then I can retire my Coercer and move on to another game.</DIV>

[Belaythien]

<span><blockquote><hr>Nerjin wrote: <div> </div> <div>BTW -- our roots are going to be be nerfed too. Meaning that each of our pathetic bits of damage will have a chance to break the root and since we need to attack longer then any other Mage class, our breaks are more likely going to kill us then any other class.</div><hr></blockquote>Do you assume that they may one day nerf our root or is there a post from a dev or a patch in testing that says so? If they'd really cripple our root I guess I'd be another retired Coercer. It's the only thing that allows us to solo or duo. Basically that's the last useful thing my coercer has as finding groups is usually in vain.</span><div></div>

[Murdaben]

They [Removed for Content] root, they will have completed the destruction of the Coercer class.  Without our strong root, its bascially impossible to solo, with or without a charmed pet. Indeed, with the pet Root is even more vital, because when charm breaks, you MUST root or you die.  This is because the stuns take so long to cast that they get interrupted and a cloth caster lasts about 4-5 hits. I can almost guarantee you this: they [Removed for Content] root for coercers, there will not be a 45+ coercer left active in the game within a month. <div></div>

[Tanatus]

<P>Ghibli parser is combatstats and if your conjurer cannt brake 2K they simply dont have slightly clue how to play thier class and how to use ... air pet. Dude how many time need to be said - summoners pets along outdamage coercer - tank pets mind you...</P> <P>The whole idea of EQ2 then selling point I'd say was Moto: Each class within archtype will able perform thier role equally efficient but in a different way...</P> <P>Bruisers/brawlers - avoidance tanks</P> <P>Guard/zerkers - mitingation tanks</P> <P>Knights - casting tanks (SK lifetaps, Paladin heals)</P> <P> </P> <P>Likewise mages are:</P> <P>Wizards/warlocks - burners via DD</P> <P>Summoners - via summoned pets</P> <P>Enchanters via dots</P> <P>That was orinal idea that unfortunally was never implemented properly</P>

[Skua]

summoners do DOTS DMG , enchanters , well no do dmg ....anyway wizard and warlocks do DD and DOT (best in each)summoner do dmg with pet + powerfull dotsenchanters dots + charmed pet or persona O.o , but really enchanters have mana regen and what more?wizards have mezz (stun the wizzy for this time)both , good roots .Summoners have pets , fear spells for CC .roots and fast stuns.Enchanters have mezzs ,adn mana regen, that all , haste ......some good buffs , and nothing more to the table, really ,other class can fill our role and bettter than us.