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View Full Version : My contributions to the Charm Issue--Updated


Oneira
10-20-2005, 11:13 PM
<DIV>Here is the additional data on the use of the Charm/Coerce spell line.  I will be adding my comments to interpret this data next.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV>It is said that at high lvls Charm has major problems while at lower levers it can be useful.  The ineffectiveness of Charm is a point that Coercers have been trying to make to the Devs for weeks now. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have a low level Coercer so I began to test this theory today, and here is what I observed so far.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Subject:  23 Coercer</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Spell:      Coerce @ app iv.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Coerce tested on:  Mobs lev 20-21, 1 arrow down.  </FONT><FONT color=#66ffff>Blue con mobs.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Mob type: cackling cadavers, motley kodiaks, shore crab, grassland beetle, juvenile hawk, undead farmer, sabertooth tracker, sabertooth looter</FONT><FONT color=#ff6600>.  Conned blue. </FONT><FONT color=#ff6600>Number of tests:  30      Only single mobs were attacked using coerced pet, and all were in the 20-23 range.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>RESULTS SO FAR></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Mobs that resisted Coerce:    0 </FONT> [100% success]</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Mobs that broke Coerce before 9 min limit:    23  (7 charmed mobs died while fighting) </FONT>[>76% failure; 7 undetermined]</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Mobs that broke Coerce before 2 mins 30 secs:    22  ( 7 charmed mobs died while fighting) </FONT>[>73% failure]</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Mobs that broke Coerce before 30 secs:    13  </FONT>[43% failure<FONT color=#ff6600>]</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Mobs that broke Coerce even without an attack being initiated in less than 45 secs:    8  </FONT>[26% failure]</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Mobs that broke Coerce during the first combat:    9  </FONT>[30% failure]</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Mobs that finished the first combat successfully, including those that died fighting:    14 </FONT>[46% success]</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Mobs that remained charmed for more than 2 combats.    3 </FONT>[10% sucess]</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <UL> <LI>These are the results for Coerce used against single / mobs 2-3 levels lower than Coercer.</LI> <LI>No combat lasted longer than 1 min.</LI> <LI>The initial spell worked without fail.</LI> <LI>The failure rate of mobs to remain charmed for more than 30 sec and/or for the duration of the first combat was greater than 50%.</LI> <LI>The success rate for mobs to remain coerced for either the duration or for more than 2 combats was 10%.</LI></UL> <P>---------------------------------------------------------</P> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Coerce tested on:  Mobs lev 23 /, 1 arrow down.  </FONT>White con mobs<FONT color=#66ffff>.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ffff><FONT color=#ff6600>Type of mobs coerced:  Steppe beetle, highland huntress, griffawn, plains lurker, revenant scout, amazon archer, steelhof mystic.</FONT>  </FONT>All 23 / White</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Number of tests:  20      </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Mobs that resisted Coerce:    0 </FONT> [100% success]</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Mobs that broke Coerce is less than 15 secs:  4/20 </FONT>[20% failure]</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Mobs that broke Coerce during the first combat:  1/16 </FONT>[8% failure]</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Mobs that successfully finished or died during first combat:  15/16 </FONT>[93% success]</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Mobs that broke Coerce just before or during 2nd combat: 5/13</FONT> [39% failure]</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Mobs that broke Coerce or died during 3rd combat:  5/8 </FONT>[62% failure]</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Mobs that remained Coerced longer than 3 combats: 3 </FONT>[15% sucees]</DIV> <DIV>------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Coerce tested on:  Mobs lev 24 /, 1 arrow down.  </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>Yellow con mobs.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ffff><FONT color=#ff6600>Type of mobs coerced:  Skeletal footsoldier, highland stalker, firerock scout.</FONT>  </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>All 24 / Yellow</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Number of tests:  20 </FONT></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Mobs that resisted Coerce:    2 </FONT> [90% success]</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Mobs that broke Coerce is less than 15 secs:  5/20 </FONT>[20% failure]</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Mobs that broke Coerce during the first combat:  5/15 </FONT>[8% failure]</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Mobs that successfully finished or died during first combat:  10 </FONT>[50% success]</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Mobs that broke Coerce just before or during 2nd combat: 6/10 </FONT>[60% failure]</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff6600>Mobs that remained Coerced for 3 combats or more: 3/20 </FONT>[15% success]</DIV> <DIV>-------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <UL> <LI>These results show that there was actually no significant difference in the rate of charm breakage between blue, white and yellow mobs.  Early breaks, those that came within the first 30 secs or during the first combat were actually higher for the <FONT color=#33cccc>blue</FONT> sample than for the white sample.  But overall, the frequency of early breakage fell in the range of 25-50%.</LI> <LI>On the other hand, the overall frequency of the charm successfully holding over the "long" term, for at least 2 combats or more than 3 minutes, was about 10-15%.</LI></UL></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Oneira on <SPAN class=date_text>10-21-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:42 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Oneira on <span class=date_text>10-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:28 AM</span>

Dystr
10-20-2005, 11:39 PM
great post, solid facts.  expand your tests to 100 or 1000 charms and i would wager the results would be even more dismal. <div></div>

Neric
10-21-2005, 12:06 AM
<DIV><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"></FONT></FONT> <DIV> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Total Charm Bug List</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">(1) Lots of uncharmable mobs that should be charmable (non epic, non heroic) theses are most zones</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">-Theses are just normal single mobs that when you try to cast charm, you get the message, this mob can not be the target of this spell</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">(2) If you pet is a single up or double up arrow mob and dies, that spawn will not spawn again, your bugged it (old world only)</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">(3) If you do the above 5 times, you now can not engage ANYTHING as the max number of engaged encounters is 5, fixed by camping out</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">(4) If you want loot, do not use charm to split up a encounter as it will never drop a master that way.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">(5) If pet breaks JUST before it kills the mob you are using it to attack, it will STILL be on the hate list of that mob</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">If its at the top of the hate list and then dies, YOU WILL GET NO LOOT, even named mobs that ALWAYS drop a chest will not drop anything</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"></FONT></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Here is a little test.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Charm MOB A and send it to attack charm MOB B</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Root B and lets your charmed mob do damage to it for a while</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Then break your charm and root your ex charmed mob fast</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Both mobs should after you and be facing you</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">But Charm mob B will still be attacking charmed Mob A (A will just be standing there waiting for root to break and come to hit you)</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">And cause the ex charmed mob A is not your pet anymore and on the top of Mob's B hate list, if mob b dies it will NEVER drop any loot</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></DIV></SPAN></DIV>

Oneira
10-21-2005, 12:14 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dystrax wrote:<BR>great post, solid facts.  <BR><BR>expand your tests to 100 or 1000 charms and i would wager the results would be even more dismal. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That I will.  I will continue to test using larger samples and different kinds of mobs.  I will also try and pick up an Adept 1 so that app IV vs.  Adept 1 results can be compared.

Dystr
10-21-2005, 01:14 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Oneira wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dystrax wrote:<BR>great post, solid facts.  <BR><BR>expand your tests to 100 or 1000 charms and i would wager the results would be even more dismal. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That I will.  I will continue to test using larger samples and different kinds of mobs.  I will also try and pick up an Adept 1 so that app IV vs.  Adept 1 results can be compared. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>i can tell you that at AD3, dominate performs no better than your app4.  all it does is make the pet cast AD3 quality spells...<BR></P>

Bloodtoo
10-21-2005, 03:10 AM
Yes good work!  This is the best kind of feedback to give.  I tested charm quite a lot during DoF beta and at that time I found it only worked relaibly on green and grey mobs.  If I recall about 90% of grey mobs last to full duration and about 80% for green.  Blue and higher cons dropped off rapidly to 20%, 15% and 10% for blue white and yellow.  I tested both App I and Adept1 with no noticable difference.  I saw some post where people said that it got a bit better at Master1 and some others that said it didn't. <div></div>

Brocc
10-21-2005, 03:55 AM
Yes, I've never understood why folks thought it worked okay at any level - Charm stank, Coerce stinks <i>*smiles* </i>You know what makes an unreliable coerce even worse - we're so heavily invested in DoTs that, when the doo-doo hits the fan (and with coerce it tends too), I can't reliably use a mezz to lock down the encounter.  Unreliable Coerce + DoTs + Mezz = snowball-in-hell. I wish I had an encounter version of our root/pacify. <div></div>

Murdaben
10-21-2005, 07:03 AM
Good - look at my posts using similar conditions at 49 and 50. I got almost exactly the same results. Thanks for validating this as not just a high-end problem - and doing a much more thorough job than I did. <div></div>

Oneira
10-22-2005, 10:47 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Murdabenne wrote:<BR>Good - look at my posts using similar conditions at 49 and 50.<BR><BR>I got almost exactly the same results.<BR><BR><BR>Thanks for validating this as not just a high-end problem - and doing a much more thorough job than I did.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Could you provide a link to your post?