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View Full Version : The increasing power of mobs versus the relatively fixed power of coercers


Chath
06-27-2005, 10:59 PM
<DIV>The threat that post 37 would be increasingly more difficult does not seem to have any basis in truth.  Has the game fundamentally changed in some way since the folks who made these claims experienced this power shift themselves?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At level 42, I'm easily soloing level 45 and 46 (solo) mobs in Everfrost, and my tactics haven't had to change like they did making the transition from Nektulos/TS to EL/Zek.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Feerrott is a little questionable.  The mobs in Feerrott hit harder than mobs of the same level in Zek (barrages in the 400's become barrages in the 500's).  I thought maybe I was experiencing this power shift at that point, but Everfrost and Lavastorm seem to be proving otherwise.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Chath
06-28-2005, 08:49 PM
<DIV>No comments?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm wondering if the curve isn't about mob strength but about the increasing strength of other subclasses relative to the enchanter?</DIV>

Orki who Pos
06-29-2005, 12:07 AM
<DIV><FONT size=3></FONT></DIV> <P><FONT size=3>Two things to it, first:</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>A: Everfrost is easy. The mobs are alot too easy for their level and generally doesn't assist, a prime example is the sheep that are ^^ mobs but cant really do anything. There's also a few that are more in-line, like the valkyries, so it's about what you hunt there.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>B: Some mobs near the entrance in lavastorm are easy too, but some are not, beware of those that are more consistent with their level. Also beware of the group mobs and the "hard solo" encounters in lavastorm, the single ^ mobs or groups of two smaller ones, they have heavy barrages.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>>I'm wondering if the curve isn't about mob strength but about the increasing strength of other subclasses relative to the enchanter?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>Yes, everybody gets something amazing at 40 and during the start of the 40s.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>Examples, wardens gets a +10 def buff, guardians gets an additional 20% hitpoints, and starts tanking like they were an additional level higher than the mobs, sorcerers gets ae roots, and massive nukes doubling their damage output, bruisers gets massive damage upgrades.. the list goes on. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>The only problem is, enchanters doesn't get anything amazing at those levels, they'r left in the dust, with maybe 10% bigger nukes.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>Those mobs you are hunting in everfrost, for a comparison (yah, one more of those) they die in two shots from a wizard (immolation+bof) or a warlock (2x distortion), or a summoner can kill them simply by clicking "pet attack" and go grab a cup of coffee. As an enchanter, you can kill them, but it's an ALOT longer battle. It takes you about the time to kill a solo mob in everfrost as it takes the other classes there to kill an encounter of explorers.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>It's not that you cant kill them, the easy ones that is, as long as you dont get an initial resist on your pull spell, or are really unlucky, the problem is that it simply isnt efficient in comparison. At 30 a solo mob for a warlock would require strategy, at 38 it wont even reach him, and so on.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>Try out the new splitpaw dungeons, those are sleepwalking for a ton of classes, and alot of hard work as an enchanter, they show the problem very precisely.</FONT></DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by Orki who Posts on <span class=date_text>06-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:08 PM</span>

Chath
06-29-2005, 12:29 AM
<DIV>OK, so there's some challenge to it for coercers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I still don't see the problem.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'll keep working on the various mobs in the higher zones and see what I come across.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(Bear in mind that I don't care about the comparisons with other subclasses.  The other mage classes are supposed to kill faster than an enchanter, as far as I'm concerned.  From your description, however, it seems like the game was made exceptionally <EM>easy</EM> for them.  Perhaps too easy.  This simply reinforces my point in my first reply to this thread -- the comparison of enchanter versus others is not versus mobs and the mob wall, but merely versus other classes who have a much easier time of the game.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Verdemy
06-29-2005, 08:27 PM
<P>What i am going to say is my OPINIONS based on my experiences, these are not FACTS (obviously).</P> <P>I found the well documented and discuseed coercer going down the toilet bowl of late 30's and early 40's somewhat overrated....i still had fun with groups in CT where i pretty much ground out lvls 39-44.  There were lots of adds and i was able to perform my favorite skill of CC'ing.  My dps skills diminishged markedly as mobs hp's increase and other players get dps boosts, but bottom line, i was able to find groups, be a useful and productive member of these groups and most importantly, i had <STRONG><U>fun.</U></STRONG></P> <P>I am having more trouble now, that i've graduated from CT, finding groups in PF and SE takes much longer and the exp is slowing down markedly, even in groups,  at lvl 45.    I have been able to participate in some raids which is both satisfying to feel like a real contributing member to guild and frustrating as we have 2 other coercers who can buff better then me and there's not much i can do against many raid mobs.  At least I look good, though, even when just standing there !! lol.</P> <P>I am not trying to diminish many documented (and legitimate in my mind) gripes about coercer's shortcomings in the higher levels.  I'm writing this to remind (myself mostly) that i play EQ2 to have fun, and if i am having fun, well........Mission Accomplished!! (nobody how unhappy anyone else is on these boards).</P> <P>Peace and Good Travels to you all !</P> <P>Demion Harkonen, 45th coercer, TRG, Befallen.</P>

Lamprey_02
07-12-2005, 02:14 AM
Orki, you're a bit off on your comparison, at 30 a solo mob won't require strategy for a warlock. Root, DoT, 1 nuke and it's at 1/2 hp. 2 more nukes and it's gone...At least that's my impression from playing a 29 warlock.

zit
07-12-2005, 10:32 AM
<P>The strategy at lvl 30 consists of rooting the mob first. :smileywink:</P> <P>At later lvl its just nuke - nuke - dead mob.</P>

Orki who Pos
07-12-2005, 03:15 PM
<P>Indeed, notice you had like 4 or 5 spells to cast, and the order mattered, and if root gets resisted you need to think and so on.</P> <P> </P> <P>Later on it's just two or three spells, slam the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] keys and watch stuff die *grins*</P> <P>- Nothing to it at all.</P> <P> </P> <P>Soloing group mobs will require tactics, generally i'd say a group mob is as hard for a warlock post 40 as a solo mob is for a coercer. (It also takes about the same time to do)</P>

Encantador
07-14-2005, 03:57 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Chatham wrote:<BR> <DIV>OK, so there's some challenge to it for coercers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I still don't see the problem.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'll keep working on the various mobs in the higher zones and see what I come across.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(Bear in mind that I don't care about the comparisons with other subclasses.  The other mage classes are supposed to kill faster than an enchanter, as far as I'm concerned.  From your description, however, it seems like the game was made exceptionally <EM>easy</EM> for them.  Perhaps too easy.  This simply reinforces my point in my first reply to this thread -- the comparison of enchanter versus others is not versus mobs and the mob wall, but merely versus other classes who have a much easier time of the game.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>It is a relief to find other coercers are having the same experience as I do. As I go through the 40s then each level the solo mobs are becoming a little bit harder to solo. Con is definitely meaningful though I still expect to kill white con solo mobs most of the time. Group mobs are an entirely different matter. I still die frequently trying to solo ^^ mobs 8 levels below me.</P> <P>In groups, my DPS is falling further and further behind, stifles and stuns allow the healer to save power so they can nuke, and mezz is very rarely used. I have reached the point where I do not group unless it is to help others or I just have to get help to complete a quest. Perhaps its just me, but I cannot stand to be a passenger in a group. I get very embarrassed when I ask others to help me with a quest and then I stand there and watch them more or less solo mobs. When others want my help it is because I am relatively high levelled or I know the quest, it is not because a coercer makes a significant difference to the group.</P> <P>To me the main imbalance between classes is that just about all the other classes are overpowered. In a way I do not care about this. They are welcome to have stronger abilities than I. What I do care about is that I cannot get the loot they do at the levels they get it, nor can I complete kill tasks/quests at the same level they do, nor can I play a valued and <STRONG>active</STRONG> part in a group. Oh and I have to pay a d**n sight more in repair costs.</P>

Chath
07-15-2005, 07:08 AM
<DIV>I dinged 45 Monday morning.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I need to find higher level solo mobs.  I am so embarassed... I haven't figured out how to get to the northern half of either Lavastorm or Everfrost.  (This makes it very difficult to finish the Words of Pure Magic quest.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just wanted to point out that the "one resist and you've had it in Lavastorm" suggestion by Orki also does not seem to apply.  The mobs I've been facing in both Lavastorm and Everfrost, I can survive a resist on my pull spell (I pull with a DoT, so I'm not sure why a resist on it would be a problem...).  I've even gotten resists on stifles and stun spells, and I've still survived the fights.  I keep Perplexity in reserve in case of a resist on Overwhelming Silence.  Otherwise... often times the second spell I cast now is a stifle, not a stun (especially as I was killing faster at 44 than I was at 42, and my stun won't be recycled before I'm ready to take another one out).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe I'm just too tickled over the cash potential of the yard trash mobs in Lavastorm compared to the lower level zones.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only time I died due to resists was a single case where I got five resists out of six spells, and then I got stupid when a mez did stick and I didn't get the heck out of Dodge.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That happened <EM>one</EM> time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The five out of six spells resisted part, not the getting stupid part.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Granted, it's not breezy-quick.  With vitality, a 45 solo mob at 44 is about 0.3% of a level of XP, meaning I would have needed to kill, oh, 350 of them to reach 45, if that's all I did to level.  Assuming that it takes me one minute to kill a mob and recover (at 44, I could usually just stifle the mobs without using any stuns and recover pretty quickly afterward), this would put my estimate of time to grind out a level at six hours with vitality, about four times longer than the time Tanatus suggested it would take a warlock to grind out a level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The last 8% of 44 I did without vitality, however.  That hurt.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, I've seen other classes (not warlocks, but other classes) get very impressive abilities starting at level 40, and virtually anyone I group with is a killing machine in comparison.  OK, I out-DPS my pet warden on greys [raw DD -- no stifles, no DoTs/debuffs] -- barely -- and he's four levels lower.  Good thing I'm not the jealous type.  :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Chath
07-15-2005, 09:33 PM
<P>I think I got it.</P> <P>I can easily solo, in about three or four minutes (*sigh*), one of the 43^^ sootfoot sentries that wanders around Lavastorm or guards the tunnel to the beach.  (About 0.5% per kill, it would take more than twelve hours, non-stop, to grind out level 46 on these guys, with vitality, assuming no accidents.)</P> <P>The 43^^ molten fragments, however, are wickedly tough in comparison -- Barrages for 1600+, three times the HP (estimate), and a lot more resistive to my spells.  In fact, I've either fled [3 times] or been slain [3 times] every time I've tried.  I've watched a similar-level necro kite them around, but kiting around there is dangerous (lots of aggro mobs just itching for a player to come into range), and I certainly don't have a buddy to chase it around and beat on it while it's chasing me, snared.  I've seen that necro die while doing it, so it's not foolproof for him, either.</P> <P>(As an aside, one of the times I was slain, I had actually fled, successfully I thought, but somehow re-aggroed the fragment inside the tunnel? while trying to aggro the sentry and draw him out to the beach.  Not sure how I aggroed the fragment, but I didn't see it anywhere on the beach, nor did it come through the tunnel, it was just there -- I suddenly took 1610 damage from it and found myself at a revive screen.)</P> <DIV>If you all are talking about <EM>heroic</EM> mobs, then I can see where I've not understood your comparison.  There are clearly "easy" ^^'s and "hard" ^^'s.  The solo mobs, however, continue to operate as expected, and for XP grinding, solo yellows are clearly the faster way to go.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Chatham on <span class=date_text>07-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:35 AM</span>