PDA

View Full Version : they could fix corcerer like this.


yzyh
06-22-2005, 02:45 AM
<DIV>Make charm spell that work. Like that you could have a form of CC since mezz is useless in EQ2 and its for the betther.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>WoW suck but the priest in that game had a cool charm spell. You were controling the charmed target like if you were playing him. You can't control your character anymore but you do have the target skill witha  big nerf on your dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That was a cool form to CC a mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like corcerer wouldn't but just a buffer class.</DIV>

Chath
06-22-2005, 06:24 AM
<P>A friend of mine plays WoW.  Like EQ2, it's divided into two basic factions (horde, alliance).  Certain travel functions are supposed to be available only to certain sides, but there are ways around the limitations.</P> <P>My friend was traveling on an airship that was supposed to be horde-only, but a group of level 60 alliance characters were on the ship, and their PvP flag was enabled (probably due to fighting horde NPC's to get to the airship -- after a few minutes, the flag will reset if no further PvP-enabling activity occurs).  There was also a single level 60 horde priest on the ship, and, as luck would have it, his PvP flag was also set.</P> <P>One of the alliance players decided to mess with the priest.</P> <P>The priest quickly took control of the other character and ran the character off the edge of the airship (in flight).</P> <P>The alliance group then went and attacked the priest outright in retaliation, and, one by one, the priest took control of his enemies and ran them off the edge of the airship.</P> <P>My friend was still laughing about it the next day when he told me the story.  Gotta admit, it's a pretty cool ability.</P> <DIV>Chances are, something like this in EQ2 would take a lot of work to get to work right, and giving us the ability to control a mob's powers would mean that we would, of course, maximize the damage output, whereas mobs are somewhat stupid about their spell/combat art choices, particularly when charmed.  SOE would probably, therefore, find the ability "overpowering", although leaving my own body basically defenseless ought to be enough of a detriment not to consider it so.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And I like charm right now just the way it is (well, I wouldn't argue with a longer duration).  With a mob beating on me, I still need to be able to stifle him and help beat him down, plus be able to reapply charm, or do other CC stuff.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As an additional ability in an upgrade (say, a level 55 spell or something), however, having such a spell in group situations could be a lot of fun -- especially if I get to say things as that creature.  I loved having "/pet who leader".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Defilers and maybe necros probably ought to get a version of this type of spell, too.  Call it "Possession".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Akam
06-23-2005, 07:47 AM
There's nothing wrong with the coercer in group situations.  They work fine for that. It's the raiding situations that are the problem, and my solution to this is to give us a single target +++ mez (only have the ability to keep one mezzed).  To me that would make a coercer a nessesary raid member (other then for clarity), and something that an illusionist can't do better.  <div></div>

Pins
06-23-2005, 06:01 PM
<blockquote><hr>Akamai wrote:There's nothing wrong with the coercer in group situations.  They work fine for that. It's the raiding situations that are the problem, and my solution to this is to give us a single target +++ mez (only have the ability to keep one mezzed).  To me that would make a coercer a nessesary raid member (other then for clarity), and something that an illusionist can't do better.  <div></div><hr></blockquote>But, why bring an illusionist then? Doing this would make it so a coercer is wanted, and illusionists will never be wanted, because you can do what an illusionist does and keep +++ mobs under control.Also, could you imagine the hate a mez that could hit +++ mobs would incure? You'd be down soon as it was broken.

Akam
06-23-2005, 10:16 PM
An illusionist can do pretty much everything that we do only better currently.  So, yes, they would stlil be a very much needed class. <div></div>

Tanatus
06-23-2005, 10:28 PM
<P>To be completely honest - coercers atm have superior CC over Illusionists for reasom of AE</P> <P>Coecers AE mez work on lvl 56+ targets ..... Illusionists AE mez not</P> <DIV>Coercers AE mez just root caster ..... Illusionists AE mez STUN caster</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Toss here Psychic Wail - great AE stun with 6s duration - Illusionist have nothing like that</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well Perplexity now uninteruptible too </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only area where coercer falling behind illusionists in CC is single target mez vs. lvl 57 mobs ... Coercer cannt mez it - Illusionist have 21s duration single target mez for it</DIV>

Pins
06-23-2005, 10:54 PM
<blockquote><hr>Akamai wrote:An illusionist can do pretty much everything that we do only better currently.  So, yes, they would stlil be a very much needed class. <div></div><hr></blockquote>I'm an Illusionist, so that's where I say "we" I mean Illusionists.We can do breeze better?(Nope! We're about equal, you have better +power than our +int/wis/resists)We can do AoE Mez better?(nope!, yours does lv57 mobs, ours caps at lv55, plus yours only roots yourself, rather than mezing yourself)We can do mez better?(due to having an extra mez on 21s dur with lv58 cap vs. lv56 cap on the 42s dur mezs)We can do aoe damage better?(sure, but that means doing mez better is useless) We can do normal damage better?(nope, we're equal) We have better haste?(well, 66%(Master Legerity) vs. 33% + 35%,5%DPS stackable if trait is taken otherwise meh)We have better stuns?(Nope. 9s vs. 14s for 2s cast, and our aoe stun is 1s cast, 3s dur vs. 3s cast(right?), 6s duration, plus you have another longer recasting single target stun with a 4s dur)We have better stifles?(Nope, Lv49+ mobs are un-stifable by illusionists with a pure stifle spell, plus your stifle "seems" to affect raid mobs)We have better pure Power Drains?(Sure do)We give more power to our group?(not at all, we have 1 spell for that(AoE Power drain/tap), you have 2(Mind's Eye + your AoE Power drain/tap))We give better resists?(Okay, 600-660 more mental and magic resist)We debuff better?(Melee-wise yes, casting-wise no)We have better proc-buffs?(Okay, only because ours is 5% on a single target to hit vs. yours 10% on a single target to get hit, but lets be honest, everybody else except necros? have better)Charm vs. Pet: Hrm, well Pet wins if it doesn't get AoE'd down, else Charm wins.Soo, seems equal enough to me. If you got that +++ mez, well [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], why bring an illusionist? Bring a bunch of Coercers. Tank about to die? Tell everybody to STOP doing whatever they're doing, and mez the mob. Heal up, get ready to take it on again. You say the recast timer doesn't start till after the duration ends?(like AoE Mez) Well bring some more Coercers! The point of bringing an Illusionist in place of a Coercer falls even further down.You can't just completely buff your own class up with ignoring the other side of the Enchanter. This Mez a +++ mob also makes so many encounters trivial. Taking on that group of 3 +++ mobs in Spirits of the Lost was a lot of fun. Making it a 2 +++ crap mob encounter(since you're going to mez the named) would be trivial.

Akam
06-24-2005, 06:24 AM
Well putting aside the fact that mezzing is generally speaking not nessesary....   AE mez would be great, but with such a short duration and not being able to recast it, it ends up being more of a temporary fix then anything permanent.  Generally speaking, I use it initially until I can single target mez the mobs, then throw it on top if there are any extra.  Psychic wail is a great spell for sure, but it's still only a 6 second stun with a large recast timer.  I think you're overstating the usefulness of our AE mez.<span></span> <font color="#ffff33">We can do breeze better?(Nope! We're about equal, you have better +power than our +int/wis/resists) <font color="#ffffff">The fact that the stat/power portions of clarity/insight stack make them both invaluable on any raid.  For that reason alone it's worth bringing an illusionist, especially once the new combat changes come into effect. </font></font><font color="#ffff00">We can do AoE Mez better?(nope!, yours does lv57 mobs, ours caps at lv55, plus yours only roots yourself, rather than mezing yourself) <font color="#ffffff">Agreed, but see above regarding ae mezzing </font></font><font color="#ffff00">We can do mez better?(due to having an extra mez on 21s dur with lv58 cap vs. lv56 cap on the 42s dur mezs) <font color="#ffffff">This was mainly what I was refering to. </font></font><font color="#ffff00">We can do aoe damage better?(sure, but that means doing mez better is useless) We can do normal damage better?(nope, we're equal) We have better haste?(well, 66%(Master Legerity) vs. 33% + 35%,5%DPS stackable if trait is taken otherwise meh)</font><font color="#ffff00"> </font><font color="#ffff00">We have better stuns?(Nope. 9s vs. 14s for 2s cast, and our aoe stun is 1s cast, 3s dur vs. 3s cast(right?), 6s duration, plus you have another longer recasting single target stun with a 4s dur) <font color="#ffffff">I would much rather have your stuns, to my knowledge they stack with mez. </font></font><font color="#ffff00">We have better stifles?(Nope, Lv49+ mobs are un-stifable by illusionists with a pure stifle spell, plus your stifle "seems" to affect raid mobs) <font color="#ffffff"> It doesn't affect raid mobs.  Only the power drain portion sticks. </font> </font><font color="#ffff00">We have better pure Power Drains?(Sure do)</font><font color="#ffff00"> </font><font color="#ffff00">We give more power to our group?(not at all, we have 1 spell for that(AoE Power drain/tap), you have 2(Mind's Eye + your AoE Power drain/tap)) <font color="#ffffff">AE power drain/tap only if one doesn't pick the stifle I believe you are refering to above.  But I agree, power regen is the main area where a coercer shines.</font> </font> <font color="#ffff00">We give better resists?(Okay, 600-660 more mental and magic resist)</font><font color="#ffff00"> </font><font color="#ffff00">We debuff better?(Melee-wise yes, casting-wise no)</font><font color="#ffff00"> </font><font color="#ffff00">We have better proc-buffs?(Okay, only because ours is 5% on a single target to hit vs. yours 10% on a single target to get hit, but lets be honest, everybody else except necros? have better) <font color="#ffffff">On that note, I've never seen that proc actually proc....  I've parsed several raids where i've had it on our MT, and never seen a proc.</font> </font><font color="#ffff00"> </font><font color="#ffff00">Charm vs. Pet: Hrm, well Pet wins if it doesn't get AoE'd down, else Charm wins. <font color="#ffffff">I've never used charm on a raid.  It tends to confuse people, hehe. I think with a few minor adjustments it should be no problem to have a coercer be a raid mob (+++) mezzer, and have an illusionist be an add (+,  ++ etc) mezzer. </font></font><div></div>

Pins
06-24-2005, 07:09 PM
I'm refering to your Lv30 Stifle(Withering Silence) that "works" on raid mobs, or so lots of people seem to be aruging over this fact in another thread.Okay, so you have a Single-Power tap that gives power to the group. Rather than an AoE Power Tap. Which doesn't require you to take a training skill for. My AoE Power Tap/Drain drains about 300 power in 24s and gives 66 power, tics are at the start, and every 4.8s. Master version of it, I believe, drains 360 power, and gives 90 power. This is castable only for 24s out of 49s(45s recast+4s cast). Which means, the master version is equivalent to adding 1.8 power every second. Compartively, Master Mind's Eye for you is 10 minutes continous and gives 15 power every 4.5s. Which is 3.333 power every second. Nearly double of my AoE Power Tap. So toss in your Power Tap(don't know stats even if it's the nerfed non-training one) and that's more than double of what I add to a single group not including breeze.My Stuns. Okay, so they "stack" with mez. My AoE stun is 3s duration(oh and 35s recast), I barely notice it. In fact, there are posts asking if it works every couple of weeks, just because of how low the duration is. And to get around your stun not stacking with mez, why not cast stun, mez, really fast cancel the stun?Don't quite get how I'm overstating the usefulness of your AoE Mez vs. Mine. Yours is better, this is quite obvious as far as I can see. Mez caster vs. root caster. Which would you take? Hrm, the root caster one sounds good to me. Whether it's useful, it's still better than my AoE Mez.Onto stat stacking of Clarity/Insight. Well sure they stack now, but there's also talk about changing the stats on each buff spell. And anyway I'd rather not stack them now due to aggro.Oh, the Pet vs. Charm, forgot to mention how easy it is for me to pull off my MT in raids if I use the pet. That pet is crazy aggro.Still you're also missing how much it trivializes encounters. Shak&Mak in Firemyst Gully. Bring 2 Coercers, mez shak&mak while the trash is taken out, keep Shak mez'd while Mak is taken out, then take out Shak. What a joke of an encounter that becomes. Or the encounter in Spirits of the Lost. 3 Mobs, 1 of them a named, all +++. Bring 2 Coercers, mez the named and the other. Encounter Trivilized. Contested Mobs, adds spawn, mez the contested mob, take out the adds, go back to the contested mob. What a joke.

Tanatus
06-24-2005, 08:10 PM
Pinski you all messed up ... AFAIK mez neither coercers nor illusionists one not stick on +++ targets and if it would ... many encounters would be simply trivial, heck more over they would soloable by enchanters ... if mez would stick on em

Pins
06-24-2005, 08:23 PM
<blockquote><hr>Tanatus wrote:Pinski you all messed up ... AFAIK mez neither coercers nor illusionists one not stick on +++ targets and if it would ... many encounters would be simply trivial, heck more over they would soloable by enchanters ... if mez would stick on em <hr></blockquote>Akamai is suggesting that Coercer should be able to mez a +++. I'm saying why this shouldn't be the case. Oh yah, soloability of +++ encounters, man forgot about that one.

Akam
06-24-2005, 09:51 PM
Oh I completely agree that in their current form most encounters would be trivialized by such a change.  They have to be changed as well.  I was just posing an idea about a possible solution to make enchanters more useful on raids.  Letting illusionists be the best at "mass" mezzing ++ and + adds, and coercers be able to mez a +++.   The big debat ended up being when I said that illusionists pretty much do everything better then a coercer (other then in group power regen which I have agknowledged).  Which you still haven't convienced me otherwise btw.  And when I said you were overstating the usefulness of AE mezzing, I was actually talking to Tantus. Coercers can regen power better for their group, yes. Illusionists can mez better (other then AE mezzing, which is really just a temporary thing in my mind) Illusionists can drain power better (another huge thing) I think we're about even on dps?  I can do about 60 or so on a yellow +++ illusionists have group invis (very useful when getting to a mob if we dont have enough group invisers to get to mobs like nagalik, we won't go) clarity/insight will both always be needed debuffs are both useful To me those are our main raid functions.   And an illusionist clearly has an advantage, but correct me if i'm wrong on any of that. Oh and just for the record, withering silence does NOT stifle raid mobs.  At least not any when i've been checking for it.   But I'll check the next  few mobs and let you know for sure.  If it does, then I stand corrected. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But like I said, I was really just suggesting an idea, obviously any change is going to require some work to balance.  Another idea would be to make our AE mez recastable before it expires.  That would even the playing field as far as mezzing goes imo. <div></div>

Tanatus
06-25-2005, 12:29 AM
<DIV>Oki let be completely honests</DIV> <DIV>Vs. single target coercer EVEN with illusionist DPS wise and I can imagine some situation then I can surpass illusionist vs. single target (fire resistant mobs)</DIV> <DIV>Coercer mez much better then illusionist no matter how slice it or dice.... Illi dont have any mez with 1s cast time we do, Illi AE mez totally useless - coercer AE mez great</DIV> <DIV>coercer power reg far superior over illusionist (assuming you picked right treat at lvl 40)</DIV> <DIV>Illi superior in AE DPS, in invis and power drains </DIV> <DIV>Personally I would call it even if not far far superior DPS of Illi over Coercer vs AE encounter.... And btw vs. yellow coercer more then capable sustein ~90-100DPS</DIV>

Akam
06-26-2005, 03:38 AM
I'm not sure where you're getting 90-100 dps....  Unless my parser is majorly screwed up.  I have all my spells adapt III or master I, and I very rarely break 70dps.  That's keeping all stackable dots up, and hoing like crazy.  Now I will point out that our dps tends to go up over time.  So perhaps with a really long fight concentrating on only dps it may be possible to break 90, but I can't see it happening on the majority of raid targets. I have to say that I am finding this thread very enlightening, we don't have an illusionist in our guild, and I'm not entirely sure exactly what they are capable of (I have a general idea, but nothing definite).  So if one of you could....  Maybe post exactly what you have for mezzes, stuns etc.  Cast times, recast times, level restrictions etc. <div></div>

Tanatus
06-27-2005, 11:16 PM
<DIV>Then coercer used for DPS mode - he never use stuns or stifle or power drains  for obvious reason (they are useless)</DIV> <DIV>Coercer always chain cast Muddled Thinking (I have master 1 that's why I use it over Seizure), keep Ravaged and Despair up and running (both Master 1), Of course Tyr Mind, Haruspex (as stone sourse) - and of course run as many HO as I can. Torment used as well (master 1 do 135 a tic which is not to bad)</DIV> <DIV>Basically attack sequence for coercer vs single target - Despair M1, Ravaged Psyche M1, Tormenet M1, Haruspex, Tyr Mind Adept 3 and chain cast Muddled Thinking M1. As soon as spell refresh timer TM - as soon as dots about to ware off refresh em</DIV> <DIV>Key point make sure that Despair and Ravaged always on. For me dots are major sourse of single target DPS</DIV> <DIV>Torment M1 - 135 on impact and 135 every 4s for 6 tics ~945 damage /26s (24 duration 2s cast) ~36DPS</DIV> <DIV>Despair M1 - 108-134 on impac and 108-134 every 4.8s for 5 more tics 648-804/26s ~28DPS</DIV> <DIV>Just maitaining 2 dots you should already have 64DPS</DIV> <DIV>Vs. AE tagets obvious Demoralizing Gaze M1 166-203/12s+3s cast unlimited amount of targets.</DIV>

Akam
06-27-2005, 11:22 PM
<DIV>In theory, yes you are correct.  But you're not taking into account resists, both overall resists and during each tick of the dot.  Just because a spell says it will do 130dmg every 4.5 seconds doesn't mean that it will.  But regardless...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I take back what I said about illusionists doing everything better then coercers.  Ends up withering silence does indeed stifle raid mobs.  See my other thread.</DIV>

Tanatus
06-28-2005, 01:54 AM
No its not ... archlich keep using IceCommet with it ... and so is King Drayek <DIV>Actually dots after you landed RP do listed damage - "nukes" have large window of damage thou MT M1 usually hit around 200-210, TM Adept 3 upper 500s (max theoretical damage 647)</DIV>

zuto0
06-28-2005, 04:32 AM
AOE mez is lame anyway..one part of the mob gets hit they ALL wake up!

Chath
06-28-2005, 05:05 AM
<DIV>That's been fixed for some time now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AE mez is not a blanket all-or-nothing any more.  Each mob can be awakened individually no problem.  It's one of the few fixes that we've enjoyed...</DIV>