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View Full Version : Why don't all guilds roll with more than one chanter?


Dystr
06-17-2005, 09:00 PM
One of the most popular gripes i hear from coercers and illusionists is that the biggest burden we face is keeping 24 people cracked on a raid.  I agree, keepin 24 people cracked is a definite burden....i cant even imagine what it would be like to be the only chanter in the Spirits of the Lost the whole time.  My guild rolls with 2 coercers almost all the time, but before we pulled Varanak te other night, my fellow coercer passed out on the key board, haha.  So i was the only chanter with a 22 person raid force to crack.  I admit, it was a pain ([expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] you 16 second recast).  It was not the first time i had been te only chanter, but it doesnt happen often.  But it got me thinking, why doesnt every raid have at least 2 chanters? the most common answer seems to be that a second chanter can be replaced with better DPS or another Healer.  Howoever, With the *possible* exceptions of Arch Lich and the tremblar ring event, every raid mob in this game can be taken down with 18 people or less.  Thus, for the vast majority of raids theres 6 spots that are open to any class.  Why not have another chanter?  Assume a 24 person raid.  One chanter: 7 mins to crack, will have to recrack in less than 7 mins.  Two chanters: 3 mins to crack, 11 minutes until recrack.  This advantage is the most obvious in the Spirits of the Lost, where it is basically back to grouping for chanters: keep crack on people constantly, not just casting it at the start of the raid and kill the mob before crack is up.  With 2 chanters, each has to worry about 12 people at the most.  This reduces the amount of aggro they pull during fights becuase there is less recracking, and it lessens the likelihood of skipping someone (and makes it easier to figure out who you skipped).  In general, 2 chanters is incredibly superior to one.  hardly any mob in this game requires such a great amount of DPS and Healing that you NEED 24 people and ONLY 1 of those can be a chanter.  My suggestion for those unfortunate chanters who work alone: recruit another.  its worth it.  if your guild is against it, ask them to explain why.  OF course, the monkey wrench in all of this is that there arent many chanters that are high level....thats a different rant altogether. <div></div>

Acka
06-17-2005, 10:05 PM
We are raiding with illusionist and coercer all the time.  We have another coercer who is not hard core gamer, but whenever he's available, we are having him in the raid too.   And we are looking to recruit another illusionist for a while now.  We really enjoy illusionist/coercer combo since we are "invisible" to each other - can cast mez on top of each other without breaking it, even if we cast clarity on the same target it doesn't cancel each other, and most important of all, offensive spells stack. 2 enchanters is a "must" if you want to have time to use other spells on the raid.  I am usually keeping Withering Silence, Ravaged Psyche, Despair, Torment  and Devouring Thoughts (when timer allowes) up all the time on the raid mobs, and with resists and clarity refreshes on more than 2 groups that's impossible.  I am usually keeping Withering Silence on the main encounter mob up even when rest of the raid are killing adds, since that does safe life of MT when you are fighting caster version of the mob.  I am using Seizure only when we need to drain power fast and Tyrannical Mind only at the end of the fights, since otherwise I take agro if I chain dot + nuke. Reasons for raiding with one enchanter are that its either hard to find another to recruit or raid leaders are not aware of the difference we make, apart from obvious crack. <div></div>

Tanatus
06-17-2005, 11:41 PM
Acka no offence but if you <STRONG><EM>need</EM></STRONG> stifle raid mob you want replace every single enchanter with monk (hint: try stifle Darathar or Archlich Udalan and tell me how much you succed) or warlock with vulian intereferance that interupt casting on epic mob for 1m 12s <DIV>Enchanter on raid have 2 primary duty a) Crack ppl b) Stay ALIVE no matter what. ANY good raiding guild for CC using Warlock - Stun on Epic 4.5s every 12s and PBAE unbrakeable root - beat out all coercer and illusionist AE ability...</DIV> <DIV>2 crackdealer on raid indeed semimandatory thing why ppl dont play enchanters - lol simple answer playing enchanter is TEDIOUS, BORING and plain PAINFULL  - aka no fun what so ever for 99% ppl</DIV>

Tasnus
06-18-2005, 02:15 AM
I am the only chanter (Coercer) in my guild.  We're a smaller guild compared to most raiding guilds but we prefer to be that way - so recruiting a second chanter won't be in the near future.  That said, is my job tedious?  Sure it is, cracking everyone myself takes time, but it only takes a few more minutes then if there were two chanters in the raid.  And it's not hard keeping it up for everyone if you have your timing down, even if you have to recrack in the middle of an encounter while doing our normal spells at the same time.  Honestly, I'd rather have a boring job and be USEFUL to a raid than play a more 'sexy/fun' class and be expendable.  I played one of those classes in EQ1 and let me tell you, I feel so much better now knowing that I'm a vital part of our raiding nights.. hell there would be no raid if I wasn't online most likely.  Basically my point is - yes two chanters in a raid is definitely an advantage, but it isn't required.. there's just more responsibility for the one (and not alot more imo).<div></div>

Acka
06-18-2005, 02:34 AM
<span><blockquote><hr>Tanatus wrote:Acka no offence but if you <strong><em>need</em></strong> stifle raid mob you want replace every single enchanter with monk (hint: try stifle Darathar or Archlich Udalan and tell me how much you succed) or warlock with vulian intereferance that interupt casting on epic mob for 1m 12s <div>Enchanter on raid have 2 primary duty a) Crack ppl b) Stay ALIVE no matter what. ANY good raiding guild for CC using Warlock - Stun on Epic 4.5s every 12s and PBAE unbrakeable root - beat out all coercer and illusionist AE ability...</div> <div>2 crackdealer on raid indeed semimandatory thing why ppl dont play enchanters - lol simple answer playing enchanter is TEDIOUS, BORING and plain PAINFULL  - aka no fun what so ever for 99% ppl</div><hr></blockquote> So are you saying that if other class has better spell of the type than coercer, I shouldn't bother casting a spell at all?  If so, no woder you find "</span><span>playing enchanter is TEDIOUS, BORING and plain PAINFULL". </span><div></div>

Mage-Apprentice
06-18-2005, 03:07 AM
<P>My guild has 2 coercers and 3 illu's</P> <P>1 illu is non-active atm, though when he was avtive the max chanters online (and in raid) was 4, my guild don't limit chanters in raid, the less you have the less others have to waith for a full breeze, even that our dps is low we deal dps, we do debuff and we do manadrain, and when needed we can do CC (alot more stunn than mezz).</P> <P> </P> <P>I am surprised why some other guilds relies on 1 chanter, though I don't ask because I just don't care. I'm happy in our guild, and I'm happy when we've enough chanters in a raid, even 5 is a possibe max, we had 4 on a few occaisions, 2 is average,1/3 is also sometimes possible.</P> <P> </P> <P>If you only do breeze in raids and nothig else, I do think you are doing something wrong or you like playing like that. There are only a fw monets when you can steal agro or die anyway</P> <P>1 bad pull</P> <P>2 bad adds-controll</P> <P>3 you're using the group-cure (lvl 10 training) all the time</P> <P>4 raid-wipe</P> <P>5 not avoiding aoe or having enough resist</P> <P>6 bariage/riposte</P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but if you die, the other chanter can quickly breeze his 3th (your 2nd) group while you do yours again (aka not evryone looses his breeze)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>btw saying that there are hardly any chanters level 50.... roflol, atleast on my server there are enough, atleast for the raiding guilds (if you talk about coercers, you might be right)</DIV>

Tasnus
06-18-2005, 03:25 AM
Yeah, obviously if there is only one chanter he must stay alive at all costs.  99% of the time if I die and the mob isnt at least 50% down it's curtains for us.  That is the reason I go for mainly sta/agi gear opposed to int  (with Invoker and eboots I have more than enough mana).  <div></div>

Tanatus
06-19-2005, 10:02 AM
<P>No Acka I am saying other thing</P> <P>Coercer CANNT stun, stifle, fear or mez EPIC mobs - other  classes can</P> <P>Warlock can stun RELAIBLE epic mobs for 4.5s every 12s - 3 warlock on raid can stun lock any epic mob providing fact that every warlock is lvl 50 and have Dark Nebula at Adept 3. Monk can stifle RELAIBLE epic mobs 20s duration 30s recast - 3 monk will perma stifle any epic mobs including Darathar. Bruiser can fear epic mobs - then we do King Zalak for [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] and gigle while guild killing minions King usually fear kited by bruiser. As coercer you can NOTHING like that not even close</P> <P>Now lets look close on CC and power drain... After mob beffing up - its hard as hell to drain power because mobs regenerate it at insane rate but even then its not your job drain mobs power - its trubadur job they can do fast and best. Now about CC - there is only 1 instance then mez actually prefereble form of CC - Antonica/Archlich Udalan. You have archmagi skeleton and high priest skeleton - those need to be mezed. In any other given instance or raid the ONLY relaible form of crowed control is PBAE roots - wizard and warlock have and warlocks roots better because it lock all encounters within area....</P> <P>So as it stands now - CC/debuffing - coercer can do NOTHING, DPS coercer do LESS THEN NOTHING, Buffing - coercer do crack and that's it toss here BMG+Mind Eye and got picture what coercer good for</P>

Chath
06-19-2005, 09:12 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mage-Apprentice wrote:<BR> <P>There is a difference between noob, newb.<BR>Newb are beside being new to the game, willingly to learn stuff, and ask polite question. <BR>Noobs Are beside new to the game, hard-headed and demand evrything.<BR>Newbs become good wanted players, noob are ignored </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Your message was great, but your sig was worth an extra five stars all on its own.  <EM>I like it!</EM><BR>

zefr
06-20-2005, 02:42 PM
well, i admit that a coercer can not stun , can not stifle and epic one, BUT warlocks, monks and those clases that CAN do it, will be nerfeed soon,  coz all clases stun and items proc stuns, are being nerfed now, so that is a mather or time that this clases were not able to do it anymore, if you think that a coercer can only crack and has no DPS, you are totally wrong, maybe we do not do as much damage as other DD, but if you have a parser you will see that a DD gorup wich a coercer will have about 10 or 15 dps more x player, if you know wich weapons for his delay use, coz we have a big haste wichout restrictions, also, we have nice debuffs, that increase magic damage done on mobs. and so on... the problem of being one or two in a guild is that there are a few chanters in the world, and every guild or at least every raiding guild want to have them, and for all that keep thinking that other clases can stun or stifle epics, just think about this, if a class that almost all his skills are for control mobs, can not do it, why you think that other clases that is nos suposed to do that job will can do it in the future, and when that happen you all will discober how important a chanter will be, coz for now a silence or stuned mob do less than a half of his DPS, well just wait and we willl see what happen <div></div>

Orki who Pos
06-20-2005, 03:32 PM
<P>> will be nerfeed soon,</P> <P>My warlock is shivering in his boots.. and so is my warden.. trembling with fear... I am certain both will eventually be nerfed severely.. </P> <P>On the other hand, most online games are only fun for a certain amount of time, and it seems rather unlikely that i will still be playing by the time those changes comes around.. we'r talking glacial movement speeds here.</P> <P> </P> <P>>gorup wich a coercer will have about 10 or 15 dps more x player, if you know wich weapons for his delay use, coz we have a big haste wichout restrictions</P> <P>A warlock can put 3 proc buffs on all melee players, 2 buffs that averages out as 5% chance each of doing 150 damage, and 1 that has 5% chance of doing about 250 damage and a serious poison resist debuff. (dont quote me on the numbers, they'r in that area, but not accurate)</P> <P>Those buffs gives atleast as much to melees dps as coercer haste does.. but guess what.. nobody notices... because.. sorcerers adds so much directly.. too.</P> <P>>also, we have nice debuffs, that increase magic damage done on mobs. and so on...</P> <P>The sorcerers also has nice debuffs.. the main difference is that theirs debuffs against a type of damage that's actually done. debuffing magic resist on a mob has an extreemely small effect, since allmost no attacks uses the damage type "magic" most uses fire, cold, poison and divine.<BR><BR></P> <P>>the problem of being one or two in a guild is that there are a few chanters in the world, and every guild or at least every raiding guild want to have them,</P> <P>Crack.. mmm.. mana regen for extended fights.. bring a chanter, or.. well, someone two-box the buff bot, k... thnx~<BR><BR><BR>>and for all that keep thinking that other clases can stun or stifle epics, just think about this, if a class that almost all his skills are for control mobs, can not do it, why you think that other clases that is nos suposed to do that job will can do it in the future</P> <P>It's sony we'r talking about.. think glacial speeds.. and think roulette. We'r talking the balance team that realized that mystics were having a hard time keeping their groups alive, promised to fix them, then waited 3 months... and did a quick head-shot to their best debuff instead of fixing them??? lol.</P> <P>>, and when that happen you all will discober how important a chanter will be, coz for now a silence or stuned mob do less than a half of his DPS</P> <P>But.. if it's DPS is not enough to harm anyone.. you reduced it from nothing noticable.. to nothing serious?</P> <P>I'll grant you that in a bad group, where healing is an issue, and the tank is getting beaten up, a coercer is a GREAT addition.. you stick with the bad groups, i'll uhmm.. watch from over here.. with my new lvl 47 warlock.</P> <P> </P> <P>>well just wait and we willl see what happen</P> <P>I'm not expecting to be playing this game in 2 years.. and eventually i'll get grey hair..  just wait.. wait.. wait... and see...</P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regards:</DIV> <DIV>- Yet another retired coercer.</DIV>

Nerj
06-20-2005, 05:19 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Orki who Posts wrote:<BR> <P>> will be nerfeed soon,</P> <P>My warlock is shivering in his boots.. and so is my warden.. trembling with fear... I am certain both will eventually be nerfed severely.. </P> <P>On the other hand, most online games are only fun for a certain amount of time, and it seems rather unlikely that i will still be playing by the time those changes comes around.. we'r talking glacial movement speeds here.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>First off no mention of any changes to Warlock or Wizard, other then changes to MOB resists so Wizards can do damage too. In the end the Highest DPS Mage will be the Sorcerers. That won't change.</FONT></P> <P>>group with a coercer will have about 10 or 15 dps more x player, if you know wich weapons for his delay use, coz we have a big haste wichout restrictions</P> <P>A warlock can put 3 proc buffs on all melee players, 2 buffs that averages out as 5% chance each of doing 150 damage, and 1 that has 5% chance of doing about 250 damage and a serious poison resist debuff. (dont quote me on the numbers, they'r in that area, but not accurate)</P> <P>Those buffs gives atleast as much to melees dps as coercer haste does.. but guess what.. nobody notices... because.. sorcerers adds so much directly.. too.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Sorry, but those groups with a Coercer will need to do more DPS since the Coercer won't provided it, a ~6% increase to DPS. Remember that a Scout uses poison to do damage. </FONT></P> <P>>also, we have nice debuffs, that increase magic damage done on mobs. and so on...</P> <P>The sorcerers also has nice debuffs.. the main difference is that theirs debuffs against a type of damage that's actually done. debuffing magic resist on a mob has an extreemely small effect, since allmost no attacks uses the damage type "magic" most uses fire, cold, poison and divine.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>With Scouts getting a DPS boost in the Combat rebalnce. Which debuff will be prefered Poison or Magic?</FONT><BR><BR>>the problem of being one or two in a guild is that there are a few chanters in the world, and every guild or at least every raiding guild want to have them,</P> <P>Crack.. mmm.. mana regen for extended fights.. bring a chanter, or.. well, someone two-box the buff bot, k... thnx~</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Problem is that guilds don't really need Chanters. However, Chanters will really need a guild in order to be able to do anything.<BR></FONT><BR><BR>>and for all that keep thinking that other clases can stun or stifle epics, just think about this, if a class that almost all his skills are for control mobs, can not do it, why you think that other clases that is nos suposed to do that job will can do it in the future</P> <P>It's sony we'r talking about.. think glacial speeds.. and think roulette. We'r talking the balance team that realized that mystics were having a hard time keeping their groups alive, promised to fix them, then waited 3 months... and did a quick head-shot to their best debuff instead of fixing them??? lol.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Plus, who will be listened to more. The class with the least number of players or ones with more. People will complain about "needing" to have an Enchanter in the group. Plus SOE devs like to spread those jobs around. The changes you will see is some Guardian defense getting spreading around.</FONT></P> <P>>, and when that happen you all will discover how important a chanter will be, coz for now a silence or stuned mob do less than a half of his DPS</P> <P>But.. if it's DPS is not enough to harm anyone.. you reduced it from nothing noticable.. to nothing serious?</P> <P>I'll grant you that in a bad group, where healing is an issue, and the tank is getting beaten up, a coercer is a GREAT addition.. you stick with the bad groups, i'll uhmm.. watch from over here.. with my new lvl 47 warlock.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Inatiate abilities will NOT be stopped, plus the stifle effects will NOT be allowed to work on Named MOBS. Again no reason to have a Chanter in the group.</FONT></P> <P>>well just wait and we willl see what happen</P> <P>I'm not expecting to be playing this game in 2 years.. and eventually i'll get grey hair..  just wait.. wait.. wait... and see...</P> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Unfortunately from what has been found out at Fan Faire, still nothing good for Coercer's. Plus Illusionist will be able to charm too.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regards:</DIV> <DIV>- Yet another retired coercer.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

Tanatus
06-20-2005, 07:31 PM
<DIV>Zefris....</DIV> <DIV>First and foremost nor monk neither warlock use proc/weapons to do job - its SPELLS/SKILLS. Oh btw I fogot to mention - Guardian can stifle epic mobs too via skills not as good as monks but good. Also I fogot to mention that scouts namely assasins have something that was hugely underutilized before Spirits of Lost zone .... interupts - 1 assasin can keep epic mob perma interupted (well warlock can do that to some extend as well)</DIV> <DIV>Coercer do NOT increase 15-20DPS per member .... more closer coercer increase DPS by 15-20DPS PER GROUP.. But for [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] and gigle lets see what Warlock and Fury have shall we? </DIV> <DIV>Warlock +23str buff (guess what str do for melee?), 3 procs Venomous runes 10% chance proc on ANY attack ~250 poison dot, Toxic Grasp ... hold your breath ....~500 poison damage 5% chance on ANY attack, Nihilism at Master 1 lvl debuff poison on successfull melee attack (what you think scounts like more wimpy 37% haste or -1100 poison debuff?) - 1078 and do around 400-450 poison damage.... Well let look on Fury they grant to group also 3 proc 200, 300, 400 damage +2-3% direct increase DPS via lion form. So foget about such silly thing like coercer increase DPS of group cause we dont ....</DIV> <DIV>Read what Moogard said about combat change - enchanters will get NOTHING - the only change that happens - fighters get theier DPS nerfed and priest will get thier DPS nerfed so enchanters can outdamage priests and fighters with current spells roflmao</DIV>

Dimmulola
06-25-2005, 01:19 PM
too bad a raidforce with 18 warlocks cant do [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] huh? sigh i really wonder how old you are, only thing you see on this forum is you whining <div></div>

Akam
06-26-2005, 03:33 AM
I'm the only enchanter in our guild, period.  No illusionists, we HAD another coercer that played rarely, but he quit recently.  Peronally I think it's silly to wait till every person on the raid is cracked before you begin.  Basically, what I usually do is crack the healers, MT, then go, start the raid, get other people as we go. As far as the reason for not bringing two, it's just not nessesary.  One coercer can easily crack an enitre raid (see above), and adding a second coercer adds almost nothing to the raid.  You basically split a single coercer's dps in two.  The only advantage is that two groups will get haste, and the power regen from having a second coercer.  This is, of course, keeping in mind that mezzing is relatively useless.  If mezzing was more useful, then yes there'd be an advantage.  However, an illusionist/coercer duo would be far much better then a coercer/coercer duo. A coercer can't stfile a raid mob, no, but they can land interuppts very rapidly with siezure. <div></div>

Dystr
06-27-2005, 09:35 PM
its not necessary, but it is very convenient to have 2 chanters for longer raids. i ended up being the only coercer on our last run through Spirits of the lost last night, christ it sucked.  for 5 hours, i sat there and casted clarity.  blah.  my mind was finished after that.... <div></div>

Tanatus
06-27-2005, 10:41 PM
<P>Well if you can find THAT many warlock yes you can do any mob with em....</P> <P>It will take a little coordination for 2 chains</P> <P>a) Stun-lock chain (Dark Nebula 3s cast 4.5s duration 12s recast stun work on epic mobs - I'd say 4 warlock can relaibly stun lock any mob in game)</P> <P>b) PBAE root chain 3s cast 36s duration 45s recast (starts as soon as spell goes off) - I'd say 3 warlocks enouth to keep locked unlimited amount of adds</P> <P>c) okie so we have 7 warlocks to do ultimate CC and probably 4-6 more will do resist of the job provided that mob not immune to noxious damage</P> <P>Buttom line you dont need 18 warlocks to kill everything in game its probably can do with 12 providing good connection and good coordination because chain casting PBAE root cause HUGE lag</P>

Dystr
06-27-2005, 10:53 PM
so wait, tan, are you suggesting that warlocks are supperior to coercers??? /sarcasm off. <div></div>

Tanatus
06-27-2005, 11:21 PM
Nah I am saying that it be fun try do some contested mobs with warlock only in raid and I think 12 is good numbers to do it. Major problem would be keeping adds perma rooted - otherwise? Trivial