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View Full Version : Coercers stop griping! Here's why....


Dac
05-26-2005, 01:22 AM
     I have been reading these boards for a while and I can't understand why you are all whining now that charm has been fixed.  This is probably the greatest spell in the game and it sounds like most of you dont even use it! 1.  Add together our mana regen, haste, stifle, etc.. and we are pretty useful to a group.  Don't look at our nuke/dot dps as our only source of dps.  I have noticed that ravaged psyche ups the damage on every nuke I cast by close to 100 points.  Think... that means every nuke that lands is doing an extra 100 damage because of you!  Same thing w/ despair for mental and divine nukes.  Also alot of the damage meleers do comes from procs on their weapons/buff procs.  Hasting them means they proc more often and that equals alot  more damage. 2.  Charm... first thing, you can charm multiple mobs.  I can usually get up to three going before the first one breaks.  In a big fight 4+ mobs i just charm anything that the tank isnt fighting and use a hotkey to /target tank01 and /petattack.  I charm mobs that I think will do the most damage, mobs w/ sorcerer or warlock in their names mostly.  There are posts claiming our dps sucks compared to sorcerer / warlocks; well charm one then!!  When I duo or small group w/ friends I usually find a high damage single up mob and keep it charmed for 30 mins or so.  The dps is crazy when the mob you have charmed walks up and barrages / etc while you are nuking. 3.  Epic fights... alot of them have epic adds.. any epic mob not below ^^ in difficulty can be charmed.  So take a mob that hits for 2000 and throw it on the named you are fighting.  We are very useful to raids that aren't overkill.  Yes, I feel kinda useless when there are four full groups, but I also feel great when I am the only mana regen on a raid w/ barely enough ppl to kill the mobs we are fighting and I realize that we couldn't do the raid without me there. So to sum it all up, in the right situation we do more dps than anyone.  On a raid w/ epic adds we do more damage in 10 seconds than any other class is doing in a minute.  In your exp / quest groups you hafta take charge and do some crazy hard fun fights.  This is where coercers shine and where you will have the most fun. Shara

Vlaven
05-26-2005, 01:49 AM
<DIV>"On a raid w/ epic adds we do more damage in 10 seconds than any other class is doing in a minute."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can you tell on what epic raid you used that strategy?</DIV>

Pins
05-26-2005, 04:40 AM
<blockquote><hr>Dache wrote: 1.  Add together our mana regen, haste, stifle, etc.. and we are pretty useful to a group.  Don't look at our nuke/dot dps as our only source of dps.  I have noticed that ravaged psyche ups the damage on every nuke I cast by close to 100 points.  Think... that means every nuke that lands is doing an extra 100 damage because of you!  Same thing w/ despair for mental and divine nukes.  Also alot of the damage meleers do comes from procs on their weapons/buff procs.  Hasting them means they proc more often and that equals alot  more damage. 2.  Charm... first thing, you can charm multiple mobs.  I can usually get up to three going before the first one breaks.  In a big fight 4+ mobs i just charm anything that the tank isnt fighting and use a hotkey to /target tank01 and /petattack.  I charm mobs that I think will do the most damage, mobs w/ sorcerer or warlock in their names mostly.  There are posts claiming our dps sucks compared to sorcerer / warlocks; well charm one then!!  When I duo or small group w/ friends I usually find a high damage single up mob and keep it charmed for 30 mins or so.  The dps is crazy when the mob you have charmed walks up and barrages / etc while you are nuking. <hr></blockquote>1. Haste does NOT up the chance of procs. A 5% proc is based on a 3.0s weapon speed. If a person with a 1.2s weapon has a 100% haste, that means they're hitting every 0.6s. Their new proc rate is 1%. This is not upping damage.2. Well, charm a mob, and have it take all your buffs and make it whack yourself silly when charm breaks?3. Not gonna comment on it.

Chath
05-26-2005, 04:55 AM
<P>Could you please clarify something?</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P></P> <HR> 3.  Epic fights... alot of them have epic adds.. any epic mob not below ^^ in difficulty can be charmed.  So take a mob that hits for 2000 and throw it on the named you are fighting.  We are very useful to raids that aren't overkill.  Yes, I feel kinda useless when there are four full groups, but I also feel great when I am the only mana regen on a raid w/ barely enough ppl to kill the mobs we are fighting and I realize that we couldn't do the raid without me there.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I am confused (pity me, I'm easily confused, no vs. mental gear) with the phrase "any epic mob not below ^^ in difficult can be charmed".  I thought it was "no mob over ^ can be charmed", which suggests that the word "not" is improperly included in that phrase, unless there's some bizarre bug or I've been improperly informed, and epic mobs ^^ and above really can be charmed....  Also, I'm a bit worried that there are ^ mobs that are doing 2000 points of damage in a single attack and what this might mean for my life expectancy due to a resist.  Care to elaborate?</P> <P>Thanks.</P>

Chath
05-26-2005, 05:04 AM
<DIV>Pinski, your explanation of proc probability versus haste really just made my day grey.  *sob*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't mean to question you... OK, that's a lie...  I'm too lazy to try to figure out a way to test this (let alone actually invest the time to actually test it).  How do you know this?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We have reactive procs that go off when an ally takes damage.  Perhaps we should get a spell to haste the mobs so that they'll hit more often, so the procs will go off more often... or are those also on a 3.0s hit expectancy?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Dac
05-26-2005, 12:28 PM
Lemme take these one at a time... 1.  I am talking mostly about buff spells that give meleers a proc,  for example shadowknight buffs give the group a lifetap proc, and other related buffs.  They say something like 5% chance per hit to proc, scout poisions say the same thing.  I have a SK friend who changed weapons just to get a lower delay so his buff would proc more often.  Now hasted 30% thats 30% more attacks and 30% more damage.  People posted before that actual attack damage was very little of the total in a fight so therefor haste wasn't very effective.  Once you also take into account the 30% increased chances of proc, haste is looking pretty good dmg vs mana ratio. 2.  Yeah they get all your buffs, more important they get the stupid proc heal when hit priest buffs.  However w/ two charmed mobs beating on a mob w/ all my group's buffs they still drop much faster than if I hadn't charmed anything.  The only time they die slower is when its the last charmed mob and the fight is almost over.  Well darn, use big nukes and make sure the last thing left is a healer or wizzy and no big deal at all.  The benefits waay outweigh the negatives.  Also I haven't narrowed it down exactly yet, but charmed mobs don't always heal up to full when charm breaks.  Alot of times when charm breaks and the group starts attacking the mob is already at half from barrages and such.  Thats really nice bonus to charm! 3.  Firemist Gully,  Eternal Gorge, etc...  tons of epic fights have a ^^ x2 or ^^^ x2 and come w/ friends of the ^ or not up variety.  Usually the raid or group fights the adds while you mez or tank / stifle the tough one.  This way just kill the tough one first and charm the rest or charm as many as you feel comfortable and mez the rest. 4.  I can't really tell you much if you die really fast to mobs that break charm.  All I can say is that I am an old school EQ1 chanter and always go for agi / ac / sta before int and mana regen.  I can tank mobs well enough to get my spells off if they resist.  Charm at adept3 resists maybe 1 in 20 casts.  Also there is this nice little icon that gives you a pretty good idea when charm is about to break and you can just be a little ways away and get charm off before the mob even gets to attack you.

Orki who Pos
05-26-2005, 12:57 PM
<P><FONT size=3>>I don't mean to question you... OK, that's a lie...  I'm too lazy to try to figure out a way to test this<BR>> (let alone actually invest the time to actually test it).  How do you know this?<BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff33 size=3>It has been posted by the developer that made the code. I think it was about 14 days ago, and has been tested in a thread elsewhere.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>5% proc rate, means 5% chance every 3 seconds, no matter weapon delay or haste.</FONT></P> <P><BR><FONT size=3>>I have a SK friend who changed weapons just to get a lower delay so his buff would proc more often.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>I know a mage that equipped haste items to make his spells go off faster, an enchanter that thinks encounters dies faster even in high damage environments if they charm, and not that many years ago people believed the earth was flat. It wasnt so, but that, was what they believed.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>>  Now hasted 30% thats 30% more attacks<BR>yes<BR>> and 30% more damage.<BR>no, not according to the developers.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>>that actual attack damage was very little of the total in a fight<BR>yes<BR>> Once you also take into account the 30% increased chances of proc, <BR>no, not according to the developers.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>>haste is looking pretty good dmg vs mana ratio.<BR>less than a 5% increase in total group damage, as someone clearified on the abilities forum</FONT></P> <P><BR><FONT size=3>>2.  Yeah they get all your buffs, more important they get the stupid proc heal when hit priest buffs.<BR>yes<BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>>  However w/ two charmed mobs beating on a mob w/ all my group's buffs they still drop much faster than if I hadn't charmed anything.<BR>The mob you'r attacking goes down faster, but the encounter goes down ALOT slower, and it becomes ALOT more risky for you.<BR>- This assumes you'r in a group that can do actual damage, if your group if 4 templars and a paladin with a grey boomstick, charm is effective indeed!</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3>>Well darn, use big nukes and make sure the last thing left is a healer or wizzy and no big deal at all.<BR>If there's someone with big nukes in the group (500 is not big) you shouldnt charm, period. Those guys have area attacks too.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>>  The benefits waay outweigh the negatives.<BR>no.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>>Alot of times when charm breaks and the group starts attacking the mob is already at half from barrages and such.  Thats really nice bonus to charm!<BR>yes, but far, far from enough to compensate for the 2000 damage the mob didnt get from the one single devastation spell your charm prevented.</FONT></P> <P><BR><FONT size=3>>3.  Firemist Gully,  Eternal Gorge, etc...  tons of epic fights have a ^^ x2 or ^^^ x2 and come w/ friends of the ^ or not up variety.<BR>Out of curiosity.. dont those go down in seconds to the warrior area attacks?</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>>  Usually the raid or group fights the adds while you mez or tank / stifle the tough one.<BR>The tough one (^^^) cannot be stifled or mezzed...</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>>  This way just kill the tough one first and charm the rest or charm as many as you feel comfortable and mez the rest.<BR>This is very doable in single low-damage group settings, but rather useless with an unkillable tank, or a warlock with devastation.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>>is that I am an old school EQ1 chanter and always go for agi / ac / sta before int and mana regen.<BR>So does all enchanters, since they have nothing usefull to cast that munches lots of mana..</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>>  I can tank mobs well enough to get my spells off if they resist.<BR>Only because it's a non ^^ mob, the point is, if YOU can tank it, the tank might not even be aware it's been hitting on him at all..</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>>and you can just be a little ways away and get charm off before the mob even gets to attack you.<BR>Aaaah, yes.. have the enchanter loitering about.. roaming with mobs after him, that'll make everyone happy.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ff9933 size=3>I'm sorry to sound so negative.. but really... your post was worthy of a marketing guy...</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3> <BR> <BR></FONT></P>

Dainger
05-26-2005, 01:29 PM
<P>Here's the <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=items&message.id=30217#M30217" target=_blank><FONT color=#6666ff>Dev post</FONT></A> for you.</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>And here's some quick examples.</P> <P>--Formula: (Weapon Delay/3.0 Delay) * Proc Percentage --</P> <P> I'll use poison for the examples; 25% chance to proc.</P> <UL> <LI>Weapon Delay: 0.5</LI> <UL> <LI>4.17% chance to proc/swing</LI></UL> <LI>Weapon Delay: 1</LI> <UL> <LI>8.33% chance to prc/swing</LI></UL> <LI>Weapon Delay: 1.5</LI> <UL> <LI>12.5% chance to proc/swing</LI></UL> <LI>Weapon Delay: 2.0</LI> <UL> <LI>16.67% chance to proc/swing</LI></UL> <LI>Weapon Delay: 3.0</LI> <UL> <LI>25% chance to proc/swing</LI></UL> <LI>Weapon Delay: 7.0 (approx the delay of a bow)</LI> <UL> <LI>58.33% chance to proc/fire</LI></UL></UL> <P> The longer the delay of a weapon the higher the chance of a succesful proc.  In this sense most "proc-buffs" are misleading as they say something akin to, "5% chance every swing".  When really it's more accurately reflected as orki stated......</P> <P> Procs do not  take into consideration how many successfull attacks have been made w/ their random chance, but it's more an element of time.  Every 3 seconds the game will allow a role for a successful proc, that will be distributed on the next successful hit.  This is actually a good method imo -- it levels the playing field between dual wielders and 2handers, as they will both recieve the same amount of procs from the same buffs, even though they are using vastly different delay weapons.</P> <P>  An easy way to verify this on your own is to start up a scout alt, and observe how frequently poison procs for you when you use a bow attack vs. how frequently poison procs while dual wielding.  It is glaringly obvious how procs are time based if you do this.</P> <P> So in short, haste does in no way affect how many times an adventurer will process any effect -- whether it's from a buff or from a weapon.</P> <P> Haste on the other hand can amount to a fair sum of damage, 'IF' the melee classes do not use their specials at all and just melee swing.  Due to the fact that every respectable melee character is in fact using their power to use their subclasses provided skills to hopefully their full potential, the actual amount of damage that could be said to be attributed to haste is negligible.</P> <P> I would assume that over 50% of the time a melee character is engaged in battle is spent --- activating, fulfilling, and completing special combat abilities, so as to maximise their own DPS ---  probably closer to 70% of the time.  Regardless, all the time spent using those abilities detracts from haste damage.  That's not to say haste damage isn't there, it's just that when all is said and done, if you parsed DPS from a group for an hour while hasting them, and parsed again w/ out hasting you would find a minimal difference in DPS.</P>

Azamien-Dermorate
05-27-2005, 12:26 AM
<DIV>darn those people that know stuff about math disproving theories that haste really means something LOL ......</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>serioiusly though that was a great post Dainger <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </DIV>

Dac
05-27-2005, 02:53 AM
Obviously you guys just like to complain, haste was a small part of the original post that you guys just blew waay out of proportion.  Thank you for clearing up how procs work, I was under the impression, and so was my SK friend apparently that the 5% chance per attack stated in ablities description was actually correct.  That said, haste is a spell you only need once every 15 mins and if it gives any kind of damage increase to the group I am still going to cast it and it is still worth using.  What I said was all our abilities taken together add up to some serious usefulness/damage for the party. And to Orki who Posts, i feel sorry for the people you group with.  If you even play a coercer you sound like one of the ones that just casts 2-3 spells and sits back letting the rest of the group kill the mob and earn xp for you.  You probably don't go anywhere without the perfect group of tank, chanter, healer, and 3x dps.  Well if you dont have time to gather that perfect group the massive amount of damage a chamed ^ dps type mob adds to the party is extremely helpful.  And in exp situations I usually keep a charmed up for 30 mins or so.  So the fact that its not taking ae and gains group buffs is a GOOD thing!  No wonder you aren't having any fun and all you can do is attack ppl for posting positive posts and ideas to help other players. Next, stifle does work on ^^^, but it only prevents some of their abilities.  There is a ^^^ epic x2 mob in IceSpire Summit that I have tested this on.  Without stifle she casts like crazy and wipes out our group of 4 ppl trying to kill her.  With stifle she can only use her AE and not very often, 3 times per fight or so.  Stifle still prevents alot of damage from abilities and makes that fight doable w/ such a small number of ppl. <span><blockquote> <hr></blockquote></span>

Signal9
05-27-2005, 04:56 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dache wrote:<BR>Obviously you guys just like to complain, haste was a small part of the original post that you guys just blew waay out of proportion.  Thank you for clearing up how procs work, I was under the impression, and so was my SK friend apparently that the 5% chance per attack stated in ablities description was actually correct.  That said, haste is a spell you only need once every 15 mins and if it gives any kind of damage increase to the group I am still going to cast it and it is still worth using.  What I said was all our abilities taken together add up to some serious usefulness/damage for the party.<BR><BR>And to Orki who Posts, i feel sorry for the people you group with.  If you even play a coercer you sound like one of the ones that just casts 2-3 spells and sits back letting the rest of the group kill the mob and earn xp for you.  You probably don't go anywhere without the perfect group of tank, chanter, healer, and 3x dps.  Well if you dont have time to gather that perfect group the massive amount of damage a chamed ^ dps type mob adds to the party is extremely helpful.  And in exp situations I usually keep a charmed up for 30 mins or so.  So the fact that its not taking ae and gains group buffs is a GOOD thing!  No wonder you aren't having any fun and all you can do is attack ppl for posting positive posts and ideas to help other players.<BR><BR>Next, stifle does work on ^^^, but it only prevents some of their abilities.  There is a ^^^ epic x2 mob in IceSpire Summit that I have tested this on.  Without stifle she casts like crazy and wipes out our group of 4 ppl trying to kill her.  With stifle she can only use her AE and not very often, 3 times per fight or so.  Stifle still prevents alot of damage from abilities and makes that fight doable w/ such a small number of ppl.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></SPAN><BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You started out your post with incorrect information on haste, and procs, so it was addressed first.  Never assume that anything SoE says is correct.  It will save you much grief.</P> <P>Nice Ad-hominen on Orki there.  While you have been doing who knows what since 11-14-2004, Orki, Vlaven, Nyco Tine, Tanatus, and many others have been sharing their thoughts, and impressions on our class, and discovering the problems with our spells, abilities, and our role in general.  But yes, feel sorry for his groupmates, please.  /sarc off</P> <P>You routinely charm 3 out of 4 mobs in an encounter (thus giving them all of the group buffs), and this speeds up your fights?  Please post parse data on the fight start time, and finish time when A) merely doing DPS/CC and another for B) charming 3 of 4 mobs.  I really would like to see your data on total DPS for the group, and the total time of the battle for both of these scenarios.  I tend to doubt that the charm fight was faster.  I may be wrong, due to the DPS if you can get 2 or 3 charmed mobs working at once, but I think the buffed mobs are going to take longer to kill once the charms break.</P> <P><STRONG>Which</STRONG> stifle works on ^^^x2+ mobs?  Multiple tests have been done indicating that epic mobs are NOT stifled by our spells.  Are you speaking of a spell with the effect of 'stifle' or one that states 'reduces casting ability'?  Reduced casting ability may be happening now, but I know for a fact that stifles were inneffective on epics as of a month ago.  However, taking a stifle effect, and reducing it to a reduce ability effect would seem to be on par with the mitigated slows we faced towards the PoP days in EQ.  I could see stifles being mitigated by raid mobs to have a lesser effect, without being blocked altogether.</P> <P> </P> <P>But hey, don't mind me.  I obviously just like to complain.  :smileyindifferent:</P>

Knightma
05-27-2005, 06:12 PM
<DIV>My guess is that Dache refers to Withering Silence.  And he is correct that it does stick to +++ mobs.  Now as to his claim that it actually stifles the mob, well I won't say that is not true, but I do know that any mob that is +++ and 50+ will not be stifled.  The spell will still stick to them, it will drain power from them, but it will not stifle them.  Stifles are a great spell line and a must use for the pre-raid coercer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for everyones' opinions on Haste...well what the heck....here is mine.  It's a group spell, takes all of nothing timewise to cast and it ups DPS of melees even if to a small degree.  Not our greatest spell, but it's so easy to cast and keep up that I don't even worry about it either way.  Due to problems in spell descriptions (i.e. Clarity) it is impossible to tell whether the Master 1 version of the spell is indeed the same as the App 1 version or actually provides more than 37% haste.  Well I hear that there are some ways to tell what amount of haste is stacked on an individual, but I've not been grouped with a person doing this, and my Haste is only Adept 1.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nyco Tine-50 Coercer, Permafrost. Retired.</DIV>

Orki who Pos
05-27-2005, 06:57 PM
<P><FONT size=3>You can actually tell the difference easily enough.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>type "/show_window Mainhud.Character" - M and C are capital letters or it doesnt work right.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>In there is listed the actual haste % your character has active, it shows movement speed too so dont confuse them. </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>But that's besides the point, haste doesnt do much, but.. it's not like you have anything better to do instead, so by all means, keep it up.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3>While it's rather pitifull, it's still part of what you DO bring to the group, even if they have mana regen items and good drinks.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3>>You routinely charm 3 out of 4 mobs in an encounter (thus giving them all of the group buffs), and this speeds up your fights?</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>I have no doubt It does speed up the fights, as long as you dont have any real dps classes in the group, and arent too heavy on buffs.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>(Scouts not using poisons&arrows dont count, summoners with app1 spells and so on)</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3>>I tend to doubt that the charm fight was faster.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>Yes, so do I. </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>Especially if your charm blocked even one of the heavy AE's (lots of summoner spells, lots of zerker attacks, lots of sorcerer skills)</FONT></P> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>However, i have no doubt, what so ever, that it will feel faster, since you suddenly have alot more to do.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>This is exactly the same reason that the last 3 hours sitting on a chair before you can open your birthday presents feels longer than 3 hours spent playing a computer game. Time is subjective, watches are not.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>PS: For a reference on how long an encounter should take, it usually takes a single warlock at lvl 42 slightly less than 2x36+10 seconds to kill a yellow encounter of 4 goblins in lavastorm. (or 36s each for gobbies with one ^)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>(the number comes from the fact that they dont get out of the second area root..)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> <P><FONT size=3>Sidenote: Charming with a bard in the group effectively raises the level of an ex-charmed mob by 2-3, making a yellow one atleast orange) charming with a warrior that knows his buffs will raise the mobs HP by about 1000, so subtract those, besides the AE damage blocked from the damage dealt.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P></DIV>

Dystr
05-27-2005, 07:08 PM
out of curiosity, can you post a combat log of stifle working on an epic ^^^ named, and show that its not some other class's ability that is preventing the mob from casting?  and i assume you are casting withering silence or its lvl 40 upgrade since agonizing silence cant be cast on epic ^^^ named.  every coercer on this board would love you forever if you can prove that stifle lands and works on epic mobs.  beyond that, i applaud your efforts in charming mobs for half an hour.  i also give a standing ovation to your healer for keeping you alive every time charm pops, and the tank for being able to pull aggro off you when the charmed/uber buffed mob resists or interupts your re-charm.  most groups i am in dont really appreciate dead chanters, and thats the problem i face if i try to keep mobs charmed for any length of time. understand that the people who are responding to you are very frustrated and very jaded.  believe it or not, they see the potential for greatness in our spells - if they worked properly.  they are not coming down on your for being positive, they are coming down on you becuase their biggest fear is coercers settling for what we have when what we have isnt worth settling for.  so, while i agree with you that we should enjoy what we have, understand that their efforts are in making what we have better/correct. <div></div>

ootpek
05-27-2005, 07:16 PM
Hey Orki If the buffs STOPPED once the pet was free would you actually use charm...or would you need more for it to be worth it? Just wondering where your risk reward limit is.  <div><font size="3">> PS: For a reference on how long an encounter should take, it usually takes a single warlock at lvl 42 slightly less than       > 2x36+10 seconds to kill a yellow encounter of 4 goblins in lavastorm. (or 36s each for gobbies with one ^)</font></div> <div><font size="3">> (the number comes from the fact that they dont get out of the second area root..)</font></div> Where do I find these Gobbies?  I want to go try these myself.  I've been wandering around EF more so no clue.  Only peeked in Lava once just to look so far.  Are those 4 gobbies a heroic or solo encounter?  Like that window command though...very cool... <div></div>

Orki who Pos
05-27-2005, 07:42 PM
<P>>Hey Orki<BR>>If the buffs STOPPED once the pet was free would you actually use charm...or would you need more for it to be worth it?</P> <P>In that case, i'd definitely use it in groups without heavy area damage, <STRONG>when in a low-risk environment.</STRONG></P> <P> </P> <P><BR>>Just wondering where your risk reward limit is.  </P> <P>It depends, if the group is in a place where getting back takes a while (most dungeons), i wouldn't add another 1% chance an hour for a group wipe, without a SERIOUS damage contribution. (also groups often split up after a wipe)</P> <P>However, if charming could contribute significantly to the killing speed (30%+ to the groups total dps) 0-5% chance of a wipe every hour due to missed CC/buffs (and 5-15% chance for my death), and getting back took less than 10 minutes, it would be worth it to me.</P> <P>Adding less than 20% to the reward (group damage) with a cost of massively increasing the risk (recovery time after a wipe/death) definitely is not worth it.<BR></P> <P>Note: Debt is too minor to matter in this game now.</P> <P> </P> <P><BR>>Where do I find these Gobbies?  I want to go try these myself.  I've been wandering around EF more so no clue.</P> <P>Go to lavastorm, it's alot more fun than EF. the goblins and the lava beetles are quite good to kill.</P> <P>(beware of going too deep, the zone is extreemely linear, so if it takes 2 hours to get in to where you'r fighting, it'll take 2 hours to do a corpse recovery if you die)</P> <P> </P> <P>>  Are those 4 gobbies a heroic or solo encounter?</P> <P>They'r heroic, there's not really any point for my warlock-warden duo in killing solo mobs.</P> <P>If my warlock attacks a solo mob, it just keels over before getting into melee range, more boring than you think.</P> <P> </P> <P>nuke, nuke (5seks, 2K+ damage) </P> <P>or on big ones:</P> <P>dot, stun, nuke nuke (10seks 2.7K+ damage) </P> <P> </P> <P>That gets impressively boring, really really fast.</P> <P> </P>

Tanatus
05-27-2005, 08:25 PM
<DIV>Orki LS for warlock is bad idea ... Everfrost is warlock paradise... Ideally if you have good t5 drink, Adept 3 Grisly contact downtime is next to zero. So just pick on heroic single mobs and wack em till your heart content <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />... Sheeps are lvl 42-43, Glacial constructs is lvl 44, snow leopards is lvl 45-46, neamblefoots are lvl 45-46, icegill lurkers are lvl 47, ice turbulence 47-48, giants inside perma around 46-48, contructs are lvl 47 (easy soloable is Vox on vacation and she usually is), tundra terrors are lvl 48-49, wooly mamonths are lvl 49</DIV> <DIV>Good idea for warlock move onto LS is around lvl 47+ then you can stick with solo fire constucts/tyr protectors/drakotas</DIV> <DIV>I did goblins in LS at lvl 43-44 - doable if you can find tight enouth pack to land Bony Grasp on all, Kill 1 mob outright, scratch second, root with FM third.... Then stun one that will brake free and kill it while stun last, back to last one (by this time your timer on Bony should be up)</DIV>

Orki who Pos
05-27-2005, 09:53 PM
<DIV>>Orki LS for warlock is bad idea ... Everfrost is warlock paradise...</DIV> <DIV>Fighting my way towards solusek was great fun in a duo thou, actually managed to down two nameds on my way in and grab some loot.. so wasnt all bad.</DIV> <DIV>Getting a second yellow con encounter in as an add when you'r low on mana also adds tremendously to the fun, since suddenly a fight can get scary..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>> Ideally if you have good t5 drink, Adept 3 Grisly contact downtime is next to zero.</DIV> <DIV>I got a T5 provisioner and an invoker robe... mmm.. but lavastorm is needed to obtain the efrettii boots.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>>I did goblins in LS at lvl 43-44 - doable if you can find tight enouth pack to land Bony Grasp on all, Kill 1 mob outright, scratch second, root with FM third.... Then stun one that will brake free and kill it while stun last, back to last one (by this time your timer on Bony should be up)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Remember, i play in a duo with a warden, it opens up a whole different realm of options, as long as i can root one, it doesnt matter if the rest are beating on us or not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The strategy is:</DIV> <DIV>warlock: Bony grasp on 1-4 of them</DIV> <DIV>warden: cast group cure (this gives massive aggro, and wardens can tank well enough)</DIV> <DIV>warlock: dot one beating on the warden, then stun it, and nuke it out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>from there on, heal and nuke as needed. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Quick and easy, risk is nearly 0. (DONT fight goblins with dark distortion)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Tanatus
05-27-2005, 10:07 PM
<P>Oh I see I missed part with duo....</P> <P>Yes healer in group is whole new horizon of possiblities... Btw have you tried farm named in CT gulch? - a lot named... some are commonly drop master chest (Aflictior danm if I can just catch him up). Backyard inside CT also decent area if you have healer. I think Solusek Eye miners with healer should fairly decent exp but from lvl 45 onward.  Personally altought I have soloed my first tundra terror at lvl 43 I'd rather stick with even-low yellow cons heroic</P> <P>Kinda sad if you try do same thing with coercer it wont get you anywhere</P>

Orki who Pos
05-27-2005, 11:03 PM
<P>>Btw have you tried farm named in CT gulch?</P> <P>Feerott was good to me but no master chests.. lots of nameds, afflicter among them.. and some group x2 headhunters (they didnt drop better loot than other nameds)</P> <P>(ps: nameds are pretty dangerous.. if they con orange)</P> <P> </P> <P>>Backyard inside CT also decent area if you have healer.</P> <P>Was considering that, but gonna try out some everfrost today, you arent the first mentioning that place.</P> <P> </P> <P>> I think Solusek Eye miners with healer should fairly decent exp but from lvl 45 onward.</P> <P>Actually it wouldnt be bad at 43 now, the mobs are only lvl 46-47, but.. getting my healer in to soluseks eye isnt as easy as i'd have wished *grins*</P> <P> </P> <P>>  Personally altought I have soloed my first tundra terror at lvl 43 I'd rather stick with even-low yellow cons heroic</P> <P>I stick to evens and low yellow groups too, otherwise getting an add is nearly instant-death.</P> <P> </P> <P>>Kinda sad if you try do same thing with coercer it wont get you anywhere</P> <P>No, not a chance in hell. 5 coercers and a warden couldnt take out what 1 warlock and a warden can <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

Dac
05-28-2005, 07:51 AM
 I would be totally willing to put what I can kill w/ a warden up against what you can kill Orki.  The difference is that my warden friend and I can kill just about anything w/ just us two.  Best epic we have gotten so far was blue ^^ epic x2 or green ^^^ epic x2 the difference is that it takes alot longer for us to kill things, but we do get it done and probably more safely since we have crowd control and the coercer lvl 35 spell, mana cloak, basically guarantees that the warden doesn't run out of mana if things get out of control. We do the nightbloods and lamia's in Rivervale for exp/quests.  To give you an idea of how powerful charm, I charmed a single ^ nightblood harrower lvl 43 and we finished 50 lamias off in 45 mins.  That quest gave crappy reward.  We killed 100 nightbloods in under an hour w/ the same strategy.  This is just warden and coercer w/ big scary pet that we WANT! to have our buffs.  When its time to get rid of the pet we dont even kill it we just run away a bit and we are usually so far from the mob's spawn spot that it only takes a sec to get away. FYI just did that ^^^ epic x2 again today cuz the patch message said it now gives a reward for finishing the zone and again the mob does not cast or do any abilities EXCEPT for her AE mana drain attack when she gets low.  Did the fight w/ a pally, sk, warden, and myself and was wishing I had a pet the whole 20 min long fight....  Asked the pally if the mob was doing any abilities to him and he said no.  Same thing w/ a berserker tank in ferott killing the epic lizzies at those camps near entrance, said w/ withering silence on the epic mob wasnt using abilities on him.  So short of tanking the epic myself, which I will try one of these days to help you all out, I can say that withering silence is preventing alot of damage.  I guess the harder the mob the more likely it will have ablitites that silence doesnt prevent. Oh and one more thing... about haste and procs... so the proc % goes down if the delay of your weapon is less than 3.0s.  So lets say you have a weapon w/ a low delay... and say its % chance to proc is 3% per attack.  Unless there is a very complete long study of this how can you tell that haste isnt applied AFTER the proc % is calculated thereby haste is still increasing the amount of procs per fight.....  I find it kinda hard to believe that the EQ2 engine is recalculating the proc % on your weapon every other second as your haste changes from spells (cleric heal, zerker buffs, etc..).  Seems like those hastes would just get added on later.  So someone w/ more time on their hands than me go try that out....  Attack 100 times w/ o haste and 100 times w/ haste if you proc the same number of times then haste is helping alot!  If the number goes down well then we learned something...

Dainger
05-28-2005, 10:46 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dache wrote:<BR><BR>Oh and one more thing... about haste and procs... so the proc % goes down if the delay of your weapon is less than 3.0s.  So lets say you have a weapon w/ a low delay... and say its % chance to proc is 3% per attack.  Unless there is a very complete long study of this how can you tell that haste isnt applied AFTER the proc % is calculated thereby haste is still increasing the amount of procs per fight.....  I find it kinda hard to believe that the EQ2 engine is recalculating the proc % on your weapon every other second as your haste changes from spells (cleric heal, zerker buffs, etc..).  Seems like those hastes would just get added on later.  So someone w/ more time on their hands than me go try that out....  Attack 100 times w/ o haste and 100 times w/ haste if you proc the same number of times then haste is helping alot!  If the number goes down well then we learned something...<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> I understand what you're saying.....to summarize:  Does the formula the dev gave us equate to </P> <UL> <LI>( <U>Hasted</U> Weapon Speed / 3.0 secs) * (proc %)</LI> <LI>or (Base Weapon Speed/ 3.0 secs) * (proc %)  :: <---- meaning that the proc rate is figured before haste is taken into the weapon speed calculation, allowing more procs due to haste.</LI></UL> <P> Good point, and i can see how my original post above gave no definative answer to this.  Personally i think it's built around an "every 3 seconds" rule, and the dev gave us the above equation so we could figure out a % per swing if we wanted to.</P> <P> So i don't think that every swing a player makes there is an algorithm running to check if a proc was made,....but i do think there's an algorithm running that will check every 3 seconds if the player is allowed a proc hit on their next successful swing --- regardless of how many swings that player has made during the 3 seconds.  <STRONG>imo the amount of procs you have has nothing to do w/ the amount of swings you make, but it's more a factor of time spent attacking.</STRONG>  This is the impression i've had through personal testing and through reading some haste posts.</P> <P> Unfortunately i don't have any definative test data to verify this, so the ball really could be up in the air on this one......but i did use the "search function" for a bit and found <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=items&message.id=35677#M35677" target=_blank><FONT color=#6666ff>this post</FONT></A> briefly.</P> <P> Oh, and i'm not suggesting that haste isn't worth casting......by all means it is.  All i am implying is that for quite some time i viewed haste (as w/ every other enchanter ability) as being quite an amazing and powerful ability, but eventually i slowly came to the realization that most of my seemingly "amazing" abilities were actually not that amazing at all.  Believe me i fought the idea that i wasn't as useulf as i had hoped to be for a long time.....but eventually it fully set in, as a result --- i've been level 45 since early Febuary.</P> <P>  (Though i do admit.....enchanters are a blast to play in 3/4 player groups -- our "amazing" abilities feel amazing most of the time in these situations)</P>

Nerj
05-29-2005, 07:18 AM
From a programing standpoint it is a lor easier to calulate something based on time then it is on "Haste". All you need do is put an if statement in to check a varriable. That variable, is set every 3 secs based on the random function. If the value is in range the proc happens and the program resets the variable. Simple to do and a lot easier to maintain.

Encantador
05-29-2005, 01:24 PM
<P>Not to disagree Nerjin as what you suggest may be the way its done, but even easier is to calculate the 'proc probablity' every time the speed of the weapon changes and always calculate the chance to proc. Easier logic flow.</P> <P>Not just that but there is no need to caculate the chance to hit when the weapon haste changes. Just calculate proc chance directly from weapon haste when the weapon hits. It is not a complex calculation. </P> <DIV>Quote from Dainger</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"I find it kinda hard to believe that the EQ2 engine is recalculating the proc % on your weapon every other second as your haste changes from spells (cleric heal, zerker buffs, etc..).  Seems like those hastes would just get added on later.  So someone w/ more time on their hands than me go try that out....  "</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A moments thought shows this to be silly. If the weapon's delay is being calculated 'every second' then it is easy to add one line which calculates a derived value. So by this logic you would find it hard to believe that it recalculates weapon delay every second ???</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Cornbread_GA
05-30-2005, 02:02 PM
<DIV>Any coercer charming mobs on a raid should delete their character.  Even if it DOES add to the overall DPS, it is by an insignificant amount, and is heavily outweighed by :</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <UL> <LI>1) The chance that your mob breaks, and kills you, and 24 people are out of Clarity, not to mention the fact you have to CAST all of them again.</LI></UL> <DIV> </DIV> <UL> <LI>2) The chance that your mob breaks, and you LIVE.   You survive, but the healers are going to have to dump their mana into you.  Thanks, Very light armor.</LI></UL> <DIV> </DIV> <UL> <LI>3) If your pet breaks charm mid-fight it will reset the ENTIRE encounter. <EM> (I realize this was fixed some time ago, but WAS in fact an issue at the date of the original post).</EM></LI></UL> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While the idea of the Coercer class having a useful charm is nice to dream about... it is in fact NOT a reality.  Coercer charm is used for Lore and Legend quests or MAYBE the occasional emergency crowd control.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tinky Vonwinky of the Shard</DIV> <DIV>50 Coercer Mistmoore</DIV> <DIV>Static</DIV>

Dac
05-31-2005, 02:00 AM
Three quick things to add...        One, Cornbread_GA as of my first post Charm had been fixed for almost a month.  Hadn't had a single issue with it for over 3 weeks now.       Two, charm breaking has NEVER! killed me.  Its a simple matter of paying attention to when the buff is near its end and casting the second it breaks.  There is a few seconds leway from when charm breaks to when the mob realizes its free and figures out who its going to attack.  A good coercer, ie one that pays close attention,  can keep one mob charmed with almost no risk of dying and with good timing not even get swung on.      Finally in regards to that haste calculating coding, yes you are right the developers could have coded a statement to check every couple of seconds to calculate proc %, but that would result in 1,000's of checks per group per min vs 1 check when the weapon is equipped to check if it should proc more or less often based on the 3.0s delay avg. mentioned above.  Since those calculations would obviously be done server side I find it far more likely that it is a simple check of weapon delay vs proc %.  Again, this can be tested, swing 100 times w/ hast and 100 times without and count the procs.  There should be 30% or so less procs w/ the hasted attack if proc % is actually taking haste into account.

Tanatus
05-31-2005, 09:29 AM
Dache roflmao the charmed pet never killed you for simple reason - DPS of pets that you can charm so pathetic that it cant hurt even robed caster ... let along NPCs

Dainger
05-31-2005, 09:57 AM
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ffcc00 size=3><U>--My posted opinion (marked by bullets and the color orange) below is incorrect--</U></FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  I apologize, i belive i'm at fault for miscommunicating.</DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> Dache wrote:<BR><BR>     Finally in regards to that haste calculating coding, yes you are right the developers could have coded a statement to <U><STRONG>check every couple of seconds to calculate proc %</STRONG></U>,<BR> <HR> <P></P> <P>The following bulletted info is in my opinion how procs are handled in EQ2.</P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <UL> <LI><FONT color=#ffcc00 size=3>Proc %'s are all <STRONG>hardcoded to the weapon or the buff.  </STRONG>As long as the method used to check for a successful proc is based on an every 3 seconds algorithm</FONT></LI> <UL> <LI><FONT color=#ffcc00>5% proc chance, 25% proc chance, whatever....based on an every 3 second rule.</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#ffcc00>No need to calcuate anything using the weapon delay currently wielded nor the current haste attributed as they do not effect procs.  (my opinion, confirmed via 2nd/3rd hand information --- how reliable it is? dunno)</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#ffcc00>No need to add a catch to recalculate proc % if the weapon delay or haste changes throughout an adventure.</FONT></LI></UL> <LI><FONT color=#ffcc00 size=3>Every 3 seconds, roll through each opportunity for a proc per character</FONT></LI> <UL> <LI><FONT color=#ffcc00>If: a successful roll</FONT></LI> <UL> <LI><FONT color=#ffcc00>Then: on the next successful attack attach the "proc effect"</FONT></LI></UL> <LI><FONT color=#ffcc00>Else:</FONT></LI> <UL> <LI><FONT color=#ffcc00>try again in 3 seconds.</FONT></LI></UL></UL></UL> <P>  The above seems like the simplest method imo to impliment.  You can skip through a few "if-then" statements by working w/ the proc % as hard coded variable given by the effect itself compared to calculating new proc %'s based upon weapon delay changes and haste changes.  Also checking every 3 seconds could prove to be more or less effective depending on each characters current weapon delay.  (Dual Wielding low delay weapons would take far more iterations than the 3 second rule, yet a 2hander or a bow would take less iterations than the 3 second rule.)</P> <P>  The issue i have w/ my stated method is that it does not in any way, sense, shape or form use the equation posted by the Devs.   This leaves me to assume that the equation given was meant purely as something for the player base to derive a proc % per successful hit if they chose to.  Otherwise the above method is garbage and an unimplimented choice of proc %'s which would have been useful @ making proc rates universal and more controllable throughout the game.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dache wrote:<BR><BR>     but that would result in <U><STRONG>1,000's of checks</STRONG></U> per group per min <STRONG><U>vs 1 check</U> </STRONG>when the weapon is equipped to check if it should proc more or less often based on the 3.0s delay avg. mentioned above.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>  Actually your method would still require "1,000's of checks" per group per min, + at least 1 more check than what i had meant to convey.  The thousands of checks result in using the derived proc % to determine which successful attacks are awarded w/ a proc, not from deriving the proc %.</P> <P>  1,000's of checks/min = more like 300 checks/min::  avg. 3 melee per group @ 5 procs potentials each (5 should be enough per each melee character; including weapons wielded, poisons, self buffs, and group mate buffs) this gives us 15 proc checks per 3 seconds.....which equates to 300 checks per minute.</P> <P> </P> <P>Encanta,</P> <P>  You confused me for a second  :smileyhappy:.  I was under the impression you were quoting me.</P><p>Message Edited by Dainger on <span class=date_text>05-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:02 PM</span>

Orki who Pos
05-31-2005, 12:34 PM
>     Two, charm breaking has NEVER! killed me.  <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's not the charmed mob that kills you when it breaks, it's the ^^ add that comes in while you'r busy re-charming, or getting interrupted from your ex-pet</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Due to breeze aggro, the add is VERY likely to head straight for you, and an orange ^^ mob can take you out in one round.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's the danger of charm, as tanatus says, a single ^ mob wont be killing you before you can deal with it.</DIV> <DIV>(There's a reason those are often flagged advanced-solo encounters, and actually allmost all classes can solo those)</DIV>

ootpek
05-31-2005, 04:52 PM
     <i>Two, charm breaking has NEVER! killed me.  Its a simple matter of paying attention to when the buff is near its end and casting the second it breaks.  There is a few seconds leway from when charm breaks to when the mob realizes its free and figures out who its going to attack.  A good coercer, ie one that pays close attention,  can keep one mob charmed with almost no risk of dying and with good timing not even get swung on. </i> Thats exactly what I do Dache.  It's great fun too.  I've been trying to get the timing down to manage to juggle two mobs at once even...but in the usual guild group I'm in of Zerker, Fury, Assassin and me I end up having too many other things to do with the stuff we try to pull off.  I can do it for short period but always something happens to make me have to get rid of one of my pets due to me running out of time.  A 1^ pet...well the orange and yellow ones that I work with are pretty nasty if I let them get close to me.  Either they are recharmed or my Zerker pet (ie: guildmate) runs interference for me.  In a group last night in Lava...which was marginal at best, kept trying to go deeper and kept managing to pull huge trains of 2^^ and double 1^ somehow.  With the tank down and me with three pets going, I managed two kills before they rezzed him and we evacced.  Sure it may be situational, but charm is nothing to sneeze at.  <div></div>

Dainger
06-01-2005, 09:58 AM
<DIV> Logged my illu for the first time in Months!!!  I went ahead and got together some rough proc parse data...I only parsed 10 complete encounters, in light of this i think that the results i have are still subject to random standardization type rules.  (i.e. over many, many more parses we would have better data to work w/)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, here's the info:</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Weapon Delay:</STRONG> 2.3 (Hierophant's Crook)</DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Procs:</STRONG> Intensity (5%), Earthquake (5%)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Expected Proc % / swing:</STRONG>  3.8% for each proc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>MoB engaged:</STRONG>  level 27 Heroic ^^ Deathly Scarabs from the "Crypt of Betrayal"  (chosen for expected very long duration encounters, allowing hopefully more standardized proc % results)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have listed the data by: Hasted/NonHasted --> Proc Effect --> Encounter --></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3><STRONG>(# of Procs)</STRONG> / <STRONG>(Total Swings for the encounter)</STRONG>   --  <STRONG>(Proc % per swing)</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>No extra spells/HO's were used during the testing....just pure melee w/ the procs.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Non Hasted:  (Battles lasted approx 7 minutes)</P> <UL> <UL> <LI>Earthquake</LI> <UL> <LI>3/105  -- 2.8%</LI> <LI>3/124  -- 2.4%</LI> <LI>3/119  -- 1.7%</LI> <LI>5/115  -- 4.35%</LI> <LI>1/113  -- 0.88%</LI> <UL> <LI>Proc % Average / Swing: 2.43%</LI></UL></UL> <LI>Intensity</LI> <UL> <LI>8/105  -- 7.6%</LI> <LI>6/124  -- 4.8%</LI> <LI>5/119  -- 4.2%</LI> <LI>5/115  -- 4.35%</LI> <LI>5/113  -- 4.42% </LI> <UL> <LI>Proc % Average / Swing: 5.03%</LI></UL></UL></UL> <LI>Non Hasted Combined Procs: 43</LI> <LI>Non Hasted Total Swings: 576</LI> <LI>Non Hasted Combined Proc % Average / Swing: 7.46%</LI></UL> <P>Hasted (Celerity Adept 1: 48% haste):  (Battles Lasted approx 5 Min)</P> <UL> <UL> <LI>Earthquake</LI> <UL> <LI>6/121  -- 4.9%</LI> <LI>3/102  -- 2.9%</LI> <LI>5/118  -- 4.2%</LI> <LI>4/123  -- 3.2%</LI> <LI>3/122  -- 2.46%</LI> <UL> <LI>Proc % Average / Swing: 3.58%</LI></UL></UL> <LI>Intensity</LI> <UL> <LI>3/121  -- 2.5%</LI> <LI>9/102  -- 8.8%</LI> <LI>4/118  -- 3.4%</LI> <LI>4/123  -- 3.2%</LI> <LI>5/122  -- 4.1%</LI> <UL> <LI>Proc % Average / Swing: 4.27%</LI></UL></UL></UL> <LI>Hasted Combined Procs: 46</LI> <LI>Hasted Total Swings: 586</LI> <LI>Hasted Combined Proc % Average / Swing: 7.85%</LI></UL> <P></P> <P></P> <HR> <P>Summary:</P> <P> If you looked through the data and the averages you'll see that it is somewhat erratic, this being due to my small sample size (10 fights total, taking roughly 1 hour to do)</P> <P> Looking at the "Combined Proc % Average / Swing"'s for both the hasted and non hasted categories we get:</P> <UL> <LI>Hasted: 7.85%</LI> <LI>Non Hasted: 7.46%</LI></UL> <P> The expected "Combined Proc %" should have been 7.6% (3.8 * 2.0).  With my current Data....the hasted proc rate shows a minimal advantage over the non hasted.....I believe that w/ further testing of the same subject and much more time devoted to it both hasted and Non Hasted proc %'s would have normalized closer and closer to the 7.6% number.  Meaning that for an equivalent amount of successful hits hasted and non hasted procs would act the same way.  (i.e. Haste does not effect the proc rate %)</P> <P> With that clear in my mind i went ahead and looked through my parse file for awhile longer......I noticed something else.  Each Hasted fight's duration was significantly shorter than the non hasted fight durations.  <U>This disproves the proc every 3 second idea i had posted earlier</U>.</P> <P> Each MoB i fought was exactly the same...meaning that they should have all had the exact same amount of HP's.  Looking at my data and seeing no 'real' difference in the amount of successful swings, nor in the amount of successful procs has led me yet to another opinion on how it is the proc system is functioning in EQ2</P> <UL> <LI><STRONG>Haste does not increase the potential for a proc to occur per swing</STRONG></LI> <UL> <LI>Proc % is given purely by weapon delay in the equation given, haste does not effect this equation at all.</LI></UL> <LI><STRONG>Haste does increase the potential for a proc to occur over time</STRONG></LI> <UL> <LI>By swinging at a higher frequency, procs occur more frequently over a set period of time.</LI></UL></UL> <P> So i believe haste is beneficial in the world of procs.  The benefit though is not modeled by the equation the devs gave to us.</P> <UL> <LI>Non Hasted</LI> <UL> <LI>approx 7 min average duration</LI> <LI>approx 800 damage dealt via procs</LI></UL> <LI>Hasted</LI> <UL> <LI>approx 5 min average duration</LI> <LI>approx 800 damage dealt via procs</LI></UL></UL> <P>  Same amount of damage distributed in a shorter amount of time = beneficial.  But this result still falls under the scrutiny of how many more swings could a melee group mate get in under a set amount of time due to haste, while the groupmate is spamming specials and the likes.</P> <P>  Anyways, that's my take on my data.  Thanks for giving me the urge to log in again :smileyhappy:</P>