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View Full Version : Coercers or the game?


Mandelbro
05-19-2005, 12:01 AM
Are we broken or is the game broken? I've read a lot of complaining, whether valid or not, about how we don't do the damage we should, and how we don't stack up well (if at all) with other classes.  It's been said that groups are better off with any other class, as we slow a fight down and decrease the group dps when compared to any other class in our place. These are all old arguments, so please don't start them again here.  My question really is, were we ever meant to do such damage?  Instead of complaining that we are broken and that we need our damage adjusted, shouldn't the game issues be addressed that make DPS of your group the end all and be all of the game?  I've never thought of myself as DPS.  I've thought of myself, as pitiful as it may sound, as a healer's relief.  We decrease DPS of mobs, through a variety of means, which translates into the healer being able to do other things, or just keep up in bad situations. By no means am I saying things are good as they are.  I want to make this clear.  There are serious issues that need to be addressed, but I don't want the coercer community to be crying about how we are the problem.  I don't agree with that, I believe we are a symptom of the problem.  I know that the combat system is getting an overhaul, but do you think it will be worth sticking around for?  There's a post here about EQ2 losing coercers.  It's not just coercers that are leaving, which is an indication of a flawed game, not a flawed class.  We are [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing awesome, we just belong in a different world with different mechanics <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Flame away. <div></div>

shwig
05-19-2005, 12:30 AM
Battle mechanics are a big reason why we are not very effective in a group because right now it's all about brute force.  Damage, damage, damage, that's all you need.  Hell, tanks don't even get hit most of the time so there's no reason to cc anything when mobs blindly whiff at the tank and take big damage from sorcerers.  This makes even our debuffs like stifle and melancholy's slow useless, nevermind cc tools like stun, mez, and charm.  I'm curious to see how the new battle system is going to work, if they ever get it out of test =p <div></div>

RafaelSmith
05-19-2005, 07:22 PM
I group alot with a Coercer friend and opinion is thats its a combination of both...but mostly its a poorly designed game rather than class..  Everything form armor to how dmg is done and taken is completely [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ed up putting mages at a big disadvantage.   Fights in EQ2 are short...making traditional chanter type buffs, debuffs, etc kinda useless... I mean who needs haste when w/o it mobs die in seconds.  Who needs slow when mobs die in seconds and dont even hit the tank anyways.  Who needs CC when groups of mobs die in seconds w/o denting the tank.   Why slap a DoT that takes a while to expire on something thats gonna die before its have expired? Locked encounters also work against the traditional role of  a Chanter. The black and white formula used to determin if a mob hits or misses works against Mages. True some specific spells are broken(Root, etc) but the truth is the entire game engine in broken...its just some classes see that more immediatly than others. <div></div>

Chath
05-19-2005, 08:23 PM
<DIV>Well, it's hard for many players to see the game as "broken" when the breaks are all in their favor.  (Not that that's a bad thing...)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But given that Sony is revamping the entire combat system, apparently Sony agrees with the "it's the game" assessment.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

RafaelSmith
05-19-2005, 08:44 PM
Hehe rumor has it that I play one of those classes where the game is "broken" in my favor...and i can say without hesitation that yes it is in fact majorily broken. And im being nice when i use the term "broken"...what i really wanna say would "bleeped" out. =P <div></div>

Krelfeari
05-20-2005, 02:54 AM
Hey Mandelbrodt! Many argue that while the game itself has problems, our DPS is still terribly low in solo situations. I would love to hear what u would like to see done about this and any other coercer skill change ideas u might have. If u do decide to reply to me tho, please do so at the "idea is a funny word" post I started so that I can more easily compile everyones ideas. Also, if u simply have game mechanics changes in mind that directly affect the coercer, I would'nt mind hearing those either! I'd appreciate the opinion and ideas of another coercer if u have the time, thanks.

bouncer
05-23-2005, 02:45 PM
<P>God, everyone seems to winge horrbily about how bad the coercer class is, you're obviously not using the class correctly :smileywink:</P> <P> </P> <P>Speaking as someone who spent alot of time trioing in lavastorm (with a lvl 46 SK and a lvl 43 Warden), the power of coercer is emense.  Beguile is amazing coupled with illusion other (lets the group know what mob has been beguiled) then drop before beguile expires, theres some dps right there.  Reek of terror, ok 900 secs recast does suck, but helps alot to stop getting sggro from the pet. Never underestimate the dots and nukes, they're not huge, but couple with HO's and you're laughing.</P> <P> </P> <P>Kalet, Lvl 43 ratonga coercer, splitpaw</P>

Krelfeari
05-23-2005, 03:09 PM
<P>no offense bouncrad but judgeing from parses, while the coercers DPS might not be bad by the opinion of some, it is certainly low by comparison to others. I do not contest wether or not the ability to mez is amazing, it truly is, and stuns and stifles and well I just love the class but am currently only lvl 20.</P> <P>My point about solo DPS is just that ours is in the lowest 2 or 3 of any classes....infact I've seen a parse I think where a warden outdamaged a coercer....I'm sure many other variables were involved, yes, but I do not think that our damage should be lower than a healers damage.....but keep in mind I'm only going by what I've seen others offer as evidence and I currently have no experience with a high level coercer myself.</P> <P>If you have some nice beguile parses btw I would love to see them, I like anything that sings beguiles praises really, can't wait to get the spell. Good view on the class tho, nice to see that its an argument with 2 sides as too much agreement kills a conversation.</P>

RafaelSmith
05-23-2005, 04:42 PM
<span><blockquote><hr>bouncerad wrote:<p>God, everyone seems to winge horrbily about how bad the coercer class is, you're obviously not using the class correctly :smileywink:</p> <p>Speaking as someone who spent alot of time trioing in lavastorm (with a lvl 46 SK and a lvl 43 Warden), the power of coercer is emense.  Beguile is amazing coupled with illusion other (lets the group know what mob has been beguiled) then drop before beguile expires, theres some dps right there.  Reek of terror, ok 900 secs recast does suck, but helps alot to stop getting sggro from the pet. Never underestimate the dots and nukes, they're not huge, but couple with HO's and you're laughing.</p> <p>Kalet, Lvl 43 ratonga coercer, splitpaw</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>As Ive mentioned in some other threads,,,I play a Guardian that groups alot with a friend that plays a coercer.   Our normal group of friends is me, her, a Fury and a Defiler.  Very similar to your group and YES I do agree that given that makeup the Coercer is very valuable and  against chellenging mobs she gets to use alot of her "stuff" which makes her happy.  Everyone in our group is a low dps class so her DPS seems meaniful....but its all relative.  Replace me with a Zerker,  replace the Defiler with a Scout or Wizard and all the sudden her DPS becomes tiny by comparison....mobs die faster which lessons the need/efficiency of CC and/or Charm. I think was others here have been trying to say is that there are many many other more common group makeups that pretty much make chanter and most of what they do "2nd class".  Thats whats wrong and broken...and moreso its the poorly designed engine/encounters that make it so.  Every class should feel as if they contribute something regardless off what the group makeup might be.  I play a tank...pretty much the one thing I do well...BUT even then if im in a situation where none of my "tanking" skilsl are required I can still swing a big axe and feel as if Im contributing something.   With my coercer friend, ive noticed  if we fight things where CC is not needed, Charm is either not possible or not needed, etc then she feels as if her contribution is being a mana battery for the rest of us.  And lets not even get started on Soloing....Its so far out of balance I feel guilty even chatting with her about some of the things ive soloed, etc.  From what ive been able to tell, her Solo ability is the worst of ANY class ive seen. Honestly I think first the game/encounters need to be fixed and 2nd your solo capability needs big improovments.  How they do that I really dont care...all I know is that it needs to be done.</span><div></div>

Orki who Pos
05-23-2005, 05:55 PM
<DIV><FONT size=3>Soloing isnt as bad as people make it sound.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>My warlock and my coercer can solo nearly the same con (color) of mobs, and it's about equally dangerous for the two of them.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>The only difference is that with the warlock, the mobs has two arrows on em, and with the coercer they dont.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV>

bouncer
05-23-2005, 07:00 PM
<P>There's some good points being raised, but maybe we should be looking at the coercer class as the only one thats properly balanced, yes we can't really solo heroic mobs (even if they have just greyed out), but you're not really suppsosed to be able to.  the fact that coercers haven't been tinkered with for a while is only a good thing in my book, less chance of things going wrong or getting broken :smileywink:</P> <P>The point I was getting at is that the coercer class seems be best when it is in a small group setting, yes I get bored in a full, well balanced group (hence the fact I usually only group with fellow guildmembers and spend most of my time typing jibberish or watching the telly :smileywink<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, but even in a full group situation, the downtime drops dramatically with a decent coercer, group mezz helps for group adds, stifles can be chain cast (hence the ability for my usual group to trio ^^^x2 mobs that con yellow to me) and stuns can be used to great effect.   The class is designed as a support class and is really a dps reducer rather than a dps/tank :smileywink:.  So for best lvling for a coercer, try and get yourself into a regular small group of friendly peeps and you'll shoot up lvls like nobodies buisness......whilst having something to do rather than buffing (I remember when breeze lasted 5 mins :smileysad<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>So, really forget about trying to solo with this class, or if you do, concentrate on solo mobs, and remember that no update, means that there's nothing that can get broken for us :smileyvery-happy:</P>

badcan
05-23-2005, 07:15 PM
<DIV>I don't know what stifle you're using, but at lvl 38 my withering silence says it doesn't affect raid targets.  So much for chain stifling a ^^^x2.</DIV>

Chog
05-23-2005, 09:24 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mandelbrodt wrote:<BR>Are we broken or is the game broken?<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Both. There are a host of problems with coercers specifically (stuns with 4 second casting times, haste that doesn't do enough, and so on). I won't dwell on them, as they are well-documented.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, the big problems are problems with the game. Heavy armor tanks mitigate and avoid damage too well. Clerics heal them without pulling agro themselves (in fact, they build agro for the tank as they heal them). The net of this is that a group with a heavy armor tank and a cleric needs nothing else to be self-sufficient. Adding more DPS allows them to kill mobs more efficiently, so DPS classes are desirable add-ons.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is no other role in the party. If you try to play another role (CC, debuffer, buffer), you reduce the effectiveness of the group. This has led a lot of people to focus on DPS as the core of what's wrong with coercers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While I think our DPS (particularly AE) is low, I view coercer DPS as a side argument. The real problem is that utility functions are just not useful, except in special circumstances.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I sometimes get complimented as a coercer because I don't bother with crowd control until the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] has hit the fan. Is it useful then? Absolutely. But it just doesn't happen enough enough to build a class around it. I also don't bother with stifles and stuns unless they are needed. Are they useful in some encounters? Absolutely. But it just doesn't happen enough to justify the class. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Breeze and haste? Pffft. I keep them up most of the time, but I have <STRONG>never</STRONG> had a player ask for either when they went down, not once. Compare that to what would have happened in EQ1 if crack or haste went down. That is the most damning judgment of those two spells. Players know what is useful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, until they fix the game so that something besides DPS is useful, coercers are going to have troubles. They can do whatever they want to coercers, including boost their DPS, and they will still be broken.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Chath
05-23-2005, 10:48 PM
Orki, I only gave you 5 stars because I couldn't go any higher.  *grin*

Pins
05-23-2005, 10:55 PM
<span><blockquote><hr>Chogra wrote: <div>Breeze and haste? Pffft. I keep them up most of the time, but I have <strong>never</strong> had a player ask for either when they went down, not once. Compare that to what would have happened in EQ1 if crack or haste went down. That is the most damning judgment of those two spells. Players know what is useful.</div> <div>  </div><hr></blockquote>Should be happy, in most of the pickup groups I play in, they're always complaining about lack of breeze when it's just gone down and I haven't gotten around to refreshing it.  At least it's not as bad as when we had 3 minute duration on breeze and people were all, brz plz all the time, though I was lower level and people get smarter as time goes on. The game is broken, but combat changes could fix that, since wards and reactives will start giving hate to the healers properly.  I just wonder what will happen when it comes out, and all these tanks find out how bad they are.  But wait, we're going to get aggro even more after this as well, at least in a group where they're used to a cleric/shaman healer.  The tank won't have as much aggro as before, so we're going to be super aggro bait, since after all, breeze still has the same aggro as it will now I bet.  Though if breeze gets a lower aggro, who knows, maybe we'll be fine. The class being broken will be hard to decide, until after the combat changes go in.  In the current situation, we are broken, after the combat changes?  Only SoE "knows." </span><div></div>

Chath
05-23-2005, 11:14 PM
<DIV>Wards <STRONG>do</STRONG> give out hate <EM>properly</EM>.  Try casting one during a fight and watch the mad dash to the defiler.  (I have a defiler alt, and I tend to favor the group ward I have, because I can ward lazily that way, and if the mad dash happens, I get some breathing room.)  Otherwise, the mob has no way of knowing, genuinely, where the ward came from, and so the mob leaves the defiler alone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's how regenerative lines like Breeze <EM>should</EM> work, too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

bouncer
05-24-2005, 11:21 AM
Are you sure about this?  You may be getting confused with the stuns (bewilder, unnearving stare etc), all stifles can be used on epic mobs :smileyvery-happy:

Pins
05-24-2005, 05:20 PM
<span><blockquote><hr>bouncerad wrote:Are you sure about this?  You may be getting confused with the stuns (bewilder, unnearving stare etc), all stifles can be used on epic mobs :smileyvery-happy: <div></div><hr></blockquote>No, the only stifles that an Enchanter(of either kind) can cast on an epic mob are the following: Chromatic Storm/Cerebral Tempest/Psychotic Spectrum(Illusionist AoE Nuke+5s Stifle, unproven to stifle) Withering Silence(Coercer, proven to NOT stifle) Oh wait, that's it, though Illusionist still haven't checked logs to see if it works. Oh and no wonder you think all stifles work, you only have 2 stifles so far, Overwhelming Silence(which cannot be cast on a +++ mob) and Withering Silence.  Agonizing Silence cannot be cast on a +++ mob, which is the upgrade to the Silence line you get a 44.5, which you aren't there yet to get that, which is why you think all stifles work.</span><div></div>

ootpek
05-24-2005, 06:18 PM
Ok...as champion of all things coercer when it comes to charm I have hit a limit of sorts. While I have been able to solo writs most of the time all throughout my career, post 40 I am having a hell of a time.  Up to level 39 I was charming one mob, killing another, and killing the pet easily.  Well most of the time easily, except for some bad luck streaks.  Anyway, now my writs are in Lava and damned if I can't get anything to work.  Can't even solo ONE mob.  Now this could be just a string of bad luck over the weekend, or a problem with my level compared to the level of the mobs, but [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] it's annoying.  Especially when I do see other classes running about soloing the same mobs.  Course then I wandered into a EF group that was marginal to start and made it all work and felt much better.  <div></div>