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ootpek
05-16-2005, 08:13 PM
<div></div>Out of 5.5 hours of logs I have available so far.  I cast charm 127 times and did 157664 damage just from the pets.  1241 damage per cast.  For a level 37 spell I'd say thats a pretty good spell...especially considering it's low cost.  Comments? Whats the damage per cast for other Mage class spells?  ie: Whats the most efficient Wizard spell and how much power and what level is the spell?

Bravnik
05-16-2005, 08:51 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ootpek wrote:<BR> Out of 5.5 hours of logs I have available so far.  I cast charm 127 times and did 157664 damage just from the pets.  1241 damage per cast.  For a level 37 spell I'd say thats a pretty good spell...especially considering it's low cost.  <BR><BR>Comments?<BR><BR>Whats the damage per cast for other Mage class spells?  ie: Whats the most efficient Wizard spell and how much power and what level is the spell?<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Does it really matter....I mean....A Wizards spell can't all of a suddon turn around and start pounding on them now can it? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Beguile is an OK spell at best. I like using it in my Guild Groups.</P> <p>Message Edited by Bravnik on <span class=date_text>05-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:51 AM</span>

ootpek
05-16-2005, 09:32 PM
Thats just my point...it DOES matter. Sure you can buy that Porsche 911 Turbo and drive it to the grocery store weekly and never get above 20mph or even have the turbo kick in. But would you?  A Coercer without charm is like that.  Why bother...just go buy a Chevette and use it.  <div></div>

TooFarGo
05-16-2005, 09:34 PM
<div></div>Immolation (lvl 38 i think)  and Ice Spike (lvl 19 I think)  are the most efficient I have right now (45 Wizzy) The only problem with Immolation is it is a longer recast time, while Ice Spike can be cast time after time after time.  Ice Spike is a level 19 spell, so of course its damage cant compare to Immolation. But it's very efficient.  Both are more effecient when you debuff your target. I'm at work so I can't give you stats =P <div></div><p>Message Edited by TooFarGone on <span class=date_text>05-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:35 PM</span>

Azamien-Dermorate
05-16-2005, 11:03 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ootpek wrote:<BR> Out of 5.5 hours of logs I have available so far.  I cast charm 127 times and did 157664 damage just from the pets.  1241 damage per cast.  For a level 37 spell I'd say thats a pretty good spell...especially considering it's low cost.  <BR><BR>Comments?<BR><BR>Whats the damage per cast for other Mage class spells?  ie: Whats the most efficient Wizard spell and how much power and what level is the spell?<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>157664/127 = 1241.44 damage per cast <DIV>IF average duration is 35 seconds then </DIV> <DIV>1241.44 /35 = 35.469 dps per cast </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thats not bad at level 37 ... but I wouldnt call it great either </DIV>

ootpek
05-16-2005, 11:11 PM
But it would change with different mobs.  I'm working on finding more damaging mobs to charm now. As an aside...in Tombs of Night charming a albino snake and then putting Illusion Ratonga on him makes for one HUGE rat.  Freaked out my whole group.  haha.  <div></div>

Azamien-Dermorate
05-16-2005, 11:14 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ootpek wrote:<BR>But it would change with different mobs.  I'm working on finding more damaging mobs to charm now.<BR><BR>As an aside...in Tombs of Night charming a albino snake and then putting Illusion Ratonga on him makes for one HUGE rat.  Freaked out my whole group.  haha.  <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>LOL <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

ootpek
05-16-2005, 11:18 PM
No really...the rat was as tall as the cave! <div></div>

shwig
05-17-2005, 12:29 AM
Are you just charming a mob and bringing it with you everywhere while you xp?  Charming within an encounter seems pretty negligible to me. <div></div>

Tanatus
05-17-2005, 12:39 AM
<P>lvl 37 spell at lvl 42 mmm</P> <P>Here is warlocks attack at lvl 42</P> <P>Nil Distortion (lvl 37 spell) do ~1300-1900 a pop ... every 18s  ~50 power per cast ...</P> <P>BSS (class trait lvl 30) ~800-1100 damage a pop every 9s ~90power cost</P> <P>Noxious Bolt (lvl 30 spell) ~650-850 damage every 6.5s ~70power cost</P> <DIV>Dark Pyre ~294-496 damage every 2.0s ~57power cost</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Negative Absolution lvl 20 AE - 280-342 up to 5 targets (total 1400-1710) around 70 power to cast</DIV> <DIV>Nul Absolution lvl 34 AE ~256-352 +~150-180 DoT up to 5 targets (total1530-2660) ~90 power to cast</DIV>

Ghouli
05-17-2005, 03:12 AM
<P>Charm is only useful if you are bringing a seperate mob into the battle and it can do a bit of damage if it is on a ^ mob. Charming a mob in the current encounter is pointless as it will actually make the battle longer regardless of the damage it does. All AoE spells will not effect it as it is now an ally and there are some wicked AoE spells out there, so after the non-charmed mobs are killed the group then needs to sit around and kill a fully buffed mob with full health. This will take longer than leaving it alone to be effected by AoE spells. You also must keep track of how long you have had it charmed for because the good mobs worth charming can kill you in about 2 seconds, 36 seconds is no where near enough time and we should be able to chain charm. If your needed to Stun or stifle or Mez or anything and your charm is about to expire you will find yourself in some trouble.</P> <P>For example, I had a charmed ^ mob going. The only healer we had got aggro and was asked to Mez mob at about same time charm was about to run out, healers health was about 50% so I mezzed mob, charm expired and I died in about 2 seconds cause of interupts. Cause I died I think Mez stopped healer died, charm stopped group dead. If I had not charmed the mob we would have easily survived.   </P> <P>The risk does not outway the damage, the damage does not outway the longer battles. Charm is still a fun to use spell and thats it</P>

Orki who Pos
05-17-2005, 01:24 PM
<DIV>Charm is inherently situational, and risky, so if it does lousy damage, why cast it at all?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To balance charm, it would need to be significantly better than the warlock lvl 37 nuke or the wizard lvl 39 one..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Both does about 25-50% more damage right now.</DIV> <DIV>Both does not buff the mob with all of your groups buffs including resists, haste, hp, stats and ac</DIV> <DIV>Both does not protect the mob from all AE damage</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Both does not protect the mob from all AE debuffs</DIV></DIV> <DIV>Both does not give the (cloth wearing) caster incredible aggro</DIV> <DIV>Both does not give the caster serious issues 20 seconds later at expiration time</DIV> <DIV>Both can be used in all fights, and does not require multiple targets</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you have a spell that can potentially cause a group wipe, </DIV> <DIV>and the potential reward is less than ONE shot from a nuker, </DIV> <DIV>costing 54 mana from a warlock, how good is it again?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Right now, i would rather have illusion:gnoll than charm, it would be just as usefull, and alot more fun.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

ootpek
05-17-2005, 04:56 PM
<div></div>Ok...instead of glass half empty I'm going to look at things as half full... Ok...so my charm at 52 power putting out 1241 dmg on average is basically the low end of a Warlocks Nil Distortion spell.  At the same time my pet is outputting 1241 dmg it is NOT outputting 1241 dmg on me and my group.  Charm serves two purposes this way. I will not listen to any "Charm is only useful" under certain labratory conditions.  That is just wrong.  With a little imagination you can make charm your method of CC and also put out respectable damage.  Group pulls 2^...I charm 1. Group pulls 4 non arrow...I charm 1, 2 or 3 if I'm really ambitious. Group pulls any generic mess of mobs that shouldn't be a problem...ie:low and easy... and there's a single mob standing by near...charm it and keep reusing it til the encounter is dead. Group pulls something HARD or with LOTS of mobs or BOTH, by accident and the crap starts hitting the fan, AE mez, charm charm charm charm.   Burst DPS with 3 charm mobs can top 5K in 40 seconds and thats when I was level 37.  When I charm...keeping track of the time is usually a non-issue.  Either I'm going to recharm using my charm refresh tactic, or I'm going to set my pet free and stun it anyway cause he's next.  Yes I said set free...36 seconds is sometimes too long for me even.  In a group situation it's easy to NOT have aggro even if charm falls and you're not ready.  You're just not letting the MT get enough aggro.  My cleric would have gotten his mez to save him, and when charm broke my pet would be on the MT most likely.  90% of the time anyway.  I don't really keep track of that, I just do it now. Sure there is risk...it's minimal in a group situation, aggro management, recharming my way will minimize the risk.  The damage the mob does is not the only benefit, incoming damage being reduced is also a benefit in situations where that extra mob might actually cause real damage...ie: a harder mob not an XP grind...the whole formula is more than just Risk Vs Dmg Output.  Add in the CC component of Charm and you have more than just a fancy dot.  "To balance charm, it would need to be significantly better than the warlock lvl 37 nuke or the wizard lvl 39 one.."   Both does about 25-50% more damage right now.   (And neither reduce the amount of damage the mob puts out) Both does not buff the mob with all of your groups buffs including resists, haste, hp, stats and ac  (This is a bug in my eyes, if I see evidence that it happens I bug report it.  Note: I don't SEE that evidence all the time) Both does not protect the mob from all AE damage  (Honestly if you're AEing, you're fighting wimpier things than I like) Both does not protect the mob from all AE debuffs  (Ditto) Both does not give the (cloth wearing) caster incredible aggro  (Aggro management and timing.) Both does not give the caster serious issues 20 seconds later at expiration time  (It's 35 seconds) Both can be used in all fights, and does not require multiple targets  (If I wanted to do the same thing EVERY fight I'd be a tank or a wizzy and bored out of my mind)     If you have a spell that can potentially cause a group wipe, and the potential reward is less than ONE shot from a nuker, costing 54 mana from a warlock, how good is it again?   The reward is more than just the DPS like I said above.  <div></div><p>Message Edited by ootpek on <span class=date_text>05-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:00 AM</span>

Orki who Pos
05-17-2005, 05:46 PM
<P>.</P><p>Message Edited by Orki who Posts on <span class=date_text>05-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:47 PM</span>

Orki who Pos
05-17-2005, 05:47 PM
<P><FONT size=3>>Group pulls 2^...I charm 1.<BR>Grats on prolonging the fight with 50% this increase the chance of needing CC, and increases the effect of your breeze spells, since the group wont enjoy out of combat regen.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>>Group pulls 4 non arrow...I charm 1, 2 or 3 if I'm really ambitious.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>Grats on making the fight 2x or even 3x as long, now that takes effort!</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>note: in a really really low damage group, there might be a point to this..</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>> and there's a single mob standing by near...charm it and keep reusing it til the encounter is dead. </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>Now you'r intentionally _pulling_ adds?</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3>>Group pulls something HARD or with LOTS of mobs or BOTH, by accident and the crap starts hitting the fan, AE mez, charm charm charm charm.   Burst DPS with 3 charm mobs can top 5K in 40 seconds and thats when I was level 37.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>I can see situations where this could be usefull, but truth to be told, i'm pretty sure i'd rather yell evac than take the risk..</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>btw: that amazing burst dps is 5000/40=125 dps.. a warlock dont get below 200, even when slacking and stunning.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>I'll grant you that there's some CC benefits in this situation, but you'r also buffing the mobs by quite abit, and preventing AE's.</FONT></P> <P><BR><FONT size=3>>90% of the time anyway.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>That is exactly the point, those 90% can be increased to 98% by not charming.The real fun is when a group-buffed orange mob turns on you with a barrage, that single arrow mob now hits like a double arrow one, especially with a bard in the group.</FONT></P> <P><BR><FONT size=3>>...in situations where that extra mob might actually cause real damage...ie: a harder mob not an XP grind...</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>Does your charm work on double arrow mobs? because frankly, i cannot recall a situation where a non-red single arrow mob presented a serious risk.</FONT></P> <P><BR><FONT size=3> <BR>>Both does about 25-50% more damage right now.   (And neither reduce the amount of damage the mob puts out)</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>Trust me on this, a dead mob has a very low damage output, and a mob without two arrows goes down in one broadside from a wizard/warlock past 40.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><BR><FONT size=3>>if I see evidence that it happens I bug report it.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>For fun, cast a dispell on the mob after charm breaks, it will dispell your groups buffs, for a good reason.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3>>Both does not protect the mob from all AE damage  (Honestly if you're AEing, you're fighting wimpier things than I like)</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>My warlock/warden duo takes down <FONT color=#ff9933>ORANGE</FONT> groups of 3-5 mobs at a time, alone, and have done so since 35, it got alot easier at 37&40. </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>- NO cc needed, no tanks needed. (no more than 3 without rooting if they have barrage)</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>- Interrupts makes it less efficient than having a tank, but it works.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3>There is no reason to take mobs above barely red in a group, since you WILL miss more, and it WILL give less reward over time.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>Basically, if you have a sorcerer, you AE on big pulls. If you have a zerker, same deal, and so on. Hell even my warden has a 220 points AE nuke.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3>> (If I wanted to do the same thing EVERY fight I'd be a tank or a wizzy and bored out of my mind)</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>I'll take 200% damage in 100% of the fights with 2% risk over 100% damage in 25% of the fights with 10% risk, i think most would... but then again, it's less fun when it's not risky.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3>If i want risky things with my duo, i go for blue group x2 mobs, i die ALOT against those, but it's tons of fun, and i'm getting to a point now where even one group of adds dont equal instant death.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>(On a side note, i've seen a guardian soloing them, so i guess headhunters arent all that scary, but they'r fun with root&shoot&snare&heal&canibalize)</FONT></P> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT></DIV><p>Message Edited by Orki who Posts on <span class=date_text>05-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:48 PM</span>

ootpek
05-17-2005, 06:22 PM
I guess it just comes down to how you like to play. I play a Coercer because of what I CAN do.  Offence, Defence, Save Everyone Once in awhile, variety. You now play a warlock because of what HE can do.  Dmg dmg dmg dmg.  *yawn* Enjoy. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

Orki who Pos
05-17-2005, 07:01 PM
<P><FONT size=3>It's a good thing you enjoy the coercer still, the point i was trying to make is that, where everyone thinks the grass is greener on the other side...</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>Right now, you'r standing in a desert looking at an oasis.. and there's actually grass there</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>The other guy has all your cookies, and some better ones of his own too.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3>>I guess it just comes down to how you like to play.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>Indeed, i prefer bringing power to the group, being a good addition, playing a class where skill matters, and not just a buff-bot.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>In early eq1, a good cleric mattered alot, then complete heal chains started and my cleric stopped ..</FONT><FONT size=3> later on a puller (monk) or a chanter was the great thing..</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>those were the classes i played, in eq2 i thought it was the day of the chanter, it wasn't.</FONT></P> <P><BR><BR><FONT size=3>>I play a Coercer because of what I CAN do.  Offence, Defence, Save Everyone Once in awhile, variety.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>That is why i MADE my coercer too, unfortunately, it's not how it panned out in EQ2.<BR><BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>>You now play a warlock because of what HE can do.  Dmg dmg dmg dmg.  *yawn*</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9933 size=4>This is the most common misconception of all, and sure, many warlocks plays just like that.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3>I'll list it abit differently:</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT color=#ffff00> Offence</FONT> - warlock wins, hands down, this is what you see.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT color=#cc99ff> Defence</FONT> - it's allmost tied, superior stuns (alot faster recasts, and more stuns) and unbreakable area roots (non encounter based) are imho superior to mez, stifle and charm. (This is in my opinion, based on playing both, and on having 4 chars past lvl 37)</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT color=#ff66ff>Buffs </FONT>- coercer wins, hands down. breeze is better than the proc buffs, and warlock power drains.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT color=#cc99ff>Save Everyone Once in awhile -</FONT> Tied, and this is the suprising part.. </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3>Between unbreakable roots and stuns, warlocks can do so much more than you see most doing.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>Did you know a warlock can chainstun a mob like this: 4 secs stun, 10.4 secs stun, 3.9 secs stun, 4 secs stun, <FONT color=#ff9900>8 seconds without stun</FONT>, 4 secs stunned, <FONT color=#ff9900>8 seconds without stun</FONT>, repeat from the <STRONG>start</STRONG>. </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>- the mob is fully stunned 2/3rds of the time, including the first 22 seconds, where it is most likely killed, and can be rooted when it's not stunned.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>(Wizards gets half stuns, half stifles, and can actually show even better numbers here, if you consider a stifled mob a non-threat)</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3>The AE root alone is also more of a life saver than mez would have been, due to being unbreakable, and non-encounter specific.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3>>variety.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>warlock: damage, ae damage, stuns, roots, proc buffs, (mana taps/transfers)</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>wizard: damage, ae damage, stuns, stifles, roots, proc buffs, mana transfers, evac, (mez)</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>coercer: mana buffs, stuns, stifles, mana taps, mez, (damage, root, charm, in that order)</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>(listed in order of usefullness)</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3>When looking at those lists, i'm sorry, but i have to say the sorcerers are the more varied classes.. what can you do again besides mana buffs, damage mitigation and CC?</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>The point is, your CC isn't better, your damage is ridiculous, and your mana buff is nice, especially if people dont have drinks and mana regen items.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3>Aah.. and i allmost forgot, we were killing a named in feerott with a ^ and a non arrow add, some trash mobs came in as adds..</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>The group was allmost out of power when only the white con named mob was left, and it WAS tearing the tank a new hole...</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ccff66 size=3>Nothing my enchanter did compares with the feeling of saying "everyone stand back from the mob, i'll kill it, just sit down and enjoy"</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>My enchanter in the same situation could have stunned it, asked people to stand back, and have kept it mezzed while they gained mana, or perhaps the group wouldnt have been out of mana in the first place (they would due to low damage).. it's not in the same ballpark. </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>While it'll prompt responses while "nice work" and "good thinking" it wont get responses like "[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]!" or "this is just wrong on so many levels" </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>I'll take power where it's granted, and charm / coercers, just isn't it with the current state of the game.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3>Anyway, back to the topic... beguile is NOT what balances the classes, unless it stops buffing the mobs, AND works on ^^ mobs.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>If nothing else, this post, by someone who's obviously very skilled at it (and better than me i'd guess), confirmed it for me.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3></FONT> </P> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT></DIV>

Tanatus
05-17-2005, 08:17 PM
<DIV>Ooptek not even close ....</DIV> <DIV>Charm 36second ~1300 damage</DIV> <DIV>Warlock with any give spell get more then that because over duration of 36second I will hit target 2-3 time with Nil Distorion (recast 18s) = 2600-3800 damage, chain casting lowest damage spell Dark Pyre give 2646-4446 damage</DIV> <DIV>Truth to be told if you got swarmed with mulitple pack encounters (say 3 group of miners with 2 shift bosses total) - best solution is have warlock with PBAE root for 36s</DIV>

Nibbl
05-19-2005, 04:48 PM
<P>with that damage, do you take into account the increased time it takes to kill your pet due to it having all the group buffs? or the decrease in damage you created by nullifiying everyones AoE's</P> <P>It may do some damage, but when adding in the negitaves, why bother casting at all...</P>