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Nibbl
04-30-2005, 02:58 AM
Can anyone with a parser run a test or 2 for some real data? Here is what I would like to see: 1) Join a group and just keep track of Total Group Damage and DPS for 5 fights and post the numbers with you buffing... nuking.. and doing all teh damage we can 2) Cancel all buffs and act as they did not have a coercer for 5 fights and track the same numebrs The easy way to find out how we do is if the numbers with us in the group are 20% better. If not, we actually make group damage output worse... if higher than 20%, we make groups damage more on average... I plan on running these numbers myself, but if others could too, that would be great. Thanks <div></div>

Nerj
04-30-2005, 08:10 AM
Isn't that what Scally Wag asked for here? <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=46107" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=46107</A>

Scally W
04-30-2005, 02:29 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nerjin wrote:<BR> Isn't that what Scally Wag asked for here? <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=46107" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=46107</A><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yes it was.  Nibbles go check it out, let's keep this consolidated in the original thread thanks bro.<BR>

Vlaven
05-01-2005, 01:53 AM
<P>Well that test is kind of wrong for a couple reasons :</P> <P>1) In group fight our power regen doesnt change the fight much but it let you start another fight sooner.  The way around would be to calculate damage over a period of TIME rather then number of encounter (ie total damage done in 20 minutes with and without you)</P> <P>2) You are stating a 20% improvement as your comparaison basis.  Lets say you have an healer, 1 guardian and 3 DPS with one spot open.   The DPS usually perfrom at twice the tank  and the healer near zero. Adding a 4th DPS will result in much more then 20% DPS.   Using guardian =100 , DPS= 200 and healer zero as an example, adding a 4th DPS will move you from 700 to 900 which is a 29% increase.</P> <P>Last , but not least, the results will vary tremendously with the classes present in a group and with the gear they use.  Bruiser, assasin, wizard , sK and summoner seems to me to be the  classes thta use the more power so your power regen have more impact here then say on a fury or warlock who just about never go oop no mather what they do.  I personaly regen 150 power per tick with clarity in combat, 100 without. I am not saying that 150 is not better then 100 but I hardly ever go oop with or without crack (I always crack myself last). My crack help my regen by 50% while it helps other by as much as 300% as they go from 20 regen to 70+ with me.</P> <P> </P> <P>Vlav   </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

Nerj
05-01-2005, 08:12 PM
<P>However, by filling the 6th Spot with a true DPS and using T5 Drinks to regen mana. Means faster Fights, less Mana used, and faster start into next fight. So to fufill our raope of increased Damage. We need to provide some ourselves plus generate among the 5 remaining players enough to make up what the other DPS player was doing. For example; if DPS was 500 and we do 100 do we boost everbody elses up by 80 DPS? </P> <P>Since, breeze line was nerfed and other in game items have replaced it. It cannot be consider, since it would be a wash anyway. Meaning that yeah we can fight a little longer and regen a little faster as opposed to just fighting faster and not burning as much mana.</P>

Tanatus
05-02-2005, 07:40 AM
<P>Vlaven you simply fail to comperend this</P> <P>Duration of fight is short (and its GOOD) the more DPS group have the less power group burn (understand?)</P> <DIV>T5 drink/Power regeneration items/Life to Mana convertion spells/Very high mana efficiency of spell - virtually eliminate of extrernal power reg...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lastly me me give you classical example I have WHILE back then I was playng necro in EQ1 and proving that Iksar no better or worst necros compare to inki....</DIV> <DIV>Here is a deal you have 100 mob and you have 2 option - first you can kill none stop all 100 mob but total duration of fight will take 50 min.... Alternatively you can kill each mob within 10s and after that take 10s brake to get full power and guess what? To kill all 100 mobs you you need only 33 min  yes including downtime. Now that's the classical example what enchanters do in EQ2 - they SLOW down exp gain but elimitate dowtime</DIV>

Karde Shar
05-02-2005, 11:29 AM
<P>SO what you are basically saying is that Swiss Cake Rolls are better than Twinkies?</P> <P> </P>

Nibbl
05-02-2005, 05:36 PM
<DIV>Holy cow... did that original thread on the other board get waaayyy off topic in a hurry...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyhow, has anyone else actually done some real numbers besides me? All I have is about 8 fights total and would love to see some other people post numbers instead of getting into the same arguments over utility vs damage vs... whatever else people decide to argue about.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is ONLY to look at DPS for the class and thats it - And in truth, my numbers only look at how out "group buffs" effect a group which is where "most of our damage comes from" according to moor's post. You have single out each spell for real testing (mana regen, group buffs, DPS, ect) to get a good picture. Here is my piece:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Group Buffs: Bravado, Empathic Link, Ravage Pysche</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Group: 49 Swashy, 45 Coercer, 49 Guardian, 39 Templar, 46 Ranger, 46 Templar<FONT color=#ffffff><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ffffff><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ffffff><B>Test 1:</B> Coercer doing NOTHING (no buffs, no damage, no breeze.... nothing)<BR><BR>DPS in 4 fights: 249, 266, 299, 254<BR>Avg DPS: 267<BR><BR><B>Test 2: </B>Coercer using all group buffs and debuffs (Bravado (group haste), Empathic Link (reactive damage proc which most other classes have in their spell line), Ravage Psyche (our total magic debuff)<BR><BR>DPS in 4 fights: 248, 292, 302, 293<BR>Avg DPS: 283<BR></FONT></DIV>

Vlaven
05-03-2005, 08:24 PM
<DIV> <P>Tantanus wrote </P> <P>" Vlaven you simply fail to comperend this</P> <P>Duration of fight is short (and its GOOD) the more DPS group have the less power group burn (understand?)</P> <DIV>T5 drink/Power regeneration items/Life to Mana convertion spells/Very high mana efficiency of spell - virtually eliminate of extrernal power reg...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lastly me me give you classical example I have WHILE back then I was playng necro in EQ1 and proving that Iksar no better or worst necros compare to inki....</DIV> <DIV>Here is a deal you have 100 mob and you have 2 option - first you can kill none stop all 100 mob but total duration of fight will take 50 min.... Alternatively you can kill each mob within 10s and after that take 10s brake to get full power and guess what? To kill all 100 mobs you you need only 33 min  yes including downtime. Now that's the classical example what enchanters do in EQ2 - they SLOW down exp gain but elimitate dowtime"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am not sure who fail to understand here.  I said to calculate total damage over a period of time (including downtime) instead of DPS.  If the group of 6 (without enchanter) do 200K total damage over 30 minutes and then group of 5 +enchanter do 160K over the same period, the non-enchanter group is killing more mob per hour.  Duration of each fight it completely irrelevant.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The example you gave is exactly my point. Asuuming each mob have 1000 HP, over 33 minute method A would show 66 K damage  and method B would show 100K.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Vlav </DIV> <DIV>Vindicate guild Tox server</DIV></DIV>

Zephyrus1
05-03-2005, 11:15 PM
<P>Tan,</P> <P>  I think somewhere along the way you lost any vision for this class.  Calling for straight DPS upgrades, removal of breeze lines, removal of class in general...  I really think you should just retire the Coercer for good.  Stick to playing your warlock and get him to 50.  That way, those of us who don't want to be button mashing monkeys, can work on getting this class 'fixed'.  I'd give up every bit of damage I could do, if given the chance to play this game with some actual thought.</P>

ootpek
05-03-2005, 11:17 PM
Vlavlen is right and a larger sample would make more sense.  Damage in one fight is too random and doesn't include the mana regen of breaks included.  Of course I say you should find some way to include coercer PET damage.  Don't have a good log available right now only found one 5 second charm sample cause I had a short session last night before I logged off to try something.  But in those 5 seconds my pet managed to output 554 damage.  110DPS.  Now...in a group situation where we don't have to worry too much about taking hits, and hopefully we are adding with power regen and haste, add up our dots, our nuking...and using any extras mobs as temporary DPS boosts...do you think we can output decent DPS?  I say we can for SURE.  Take into account that theoretically our charming adds and mezzing should keep the healer from using as much power which they then can put into nuking or whatever it is they do for damage...and we should "shine".  <div></div>

Zephyrus1
05-03-2005, 11:23 PM
But how often in groups do you really have the chance to charm??  Most groups I end up in, can take down mobs so fast, that it would actually cause more downtime if they had to wait for me to release the pet.

ootpek
05-03-2005, 11:29 PM
Granted I don't get to charm EVERY fight.  But hell...if you got a single pull with no arrows coming in...let loose the nukes. Now if the pull is a 2^^ with some buddies make sure the MT knows the preference of taking the big guy down first, USE his buddies as you can, and beat the big mob down way faster than if you just mezzed and parked mobs for killing.  Hell...if every fight was the same and I always clicked charm, attack, dot, nuke, nuke I'd just make up a macro to press the buttons for me.  <div></div>

Zephyrus1
05-03-2005, 11:34 PM
<DIV>See... I've always worked the other way around.  I get my groups to kill the little guys first while I go play with the big one.  Saves on the healers power to eliminate the big guys damage until the little guys are dead.</DIV>

ootpek
05-03-2005, 11:36 PM
Yeah but then if they leave you to play with the 2^^ you've just lost your chance TO charm.  And lost a bunch of your DPS.  You're left dotting, nuking and babysitting the big mob standing there.  <div></div>

Zephyrus1
05-03-2005, 11:41 PM
<DIV>Maybe I've just become cynical...  I just find it easy to mezz the big guys instead of bashing my head against the tank to get them to understand I can do anything else...</DIV>

ootpek
05-03-2005, 11:56 PM
Hehe...yeah I hear you there.  I usually warn people in all CAPS when I'm about to start charming.  I wait a few pulls at least to see how the MT takes damage, how good the healing is, how good does everyone work together etc.   Helps when I am in guild groups or partial guild groups for sure.  Going back to your comment about mezzing the big guy to reduce the healing that has to happen...all you're doing is delaying that healing til later.  I can't see it making much difference in how much healing the priest would have to make.   2 mobs come in...2^^ and 1^. You mez the 2^^. MT takes damage from 1^ and they kill it off in regular time. Fight against 2^^...MT takes damage from 2^^ and they take a regular amount of time to kill it. My scenario... You charm the 1^ and it helps you beat down the 2^^ faster, thereby reducing the amount of total damage coming in.  Group then kills 1^ in regular time. <div></div>

Zephyrus1
05-04-2005, 06:04 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ootpek wrote:<BR>Hehe...yeah I hear you there.  I usually warn people in all CAPS when I'm about to start charming.  I wait a few pulls at least to see how the MT takes damage, how good the healing is, how good does everyone work together etc.   Helps when I am in guild groups or partial guild groups for sure.  <BR><BR>Going back to your comment about mezzing the big guy to reduce the healing that has to happen...all you're doing is delaying that healing til later.  I can't see it making much difference in how much healing the priest would have to make.   <BR><BR>2 mobs come in...2^^ and 1^.<BR>You mez the 2^^. <BR>MT takes damage from 1^ and they kill it off in regular time.<BR>Fight against 2^^...MT takes damage from 2^^ and they take a regular amount of time to kill it.<BR><BR>My scenario...<BR>You charm the 1^ and it helps you beat down the 2^^ faster, thereby reducing the amount of total damage coming in.  <BR>Group then kills 1^ in regular time.<BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>For this scenraio...</P> <P>  Mez ^^ followed by stifle on ^.  This pretty much removes all damage possibilities from the mobs.  DOT and continue stifle on ^ till dead, refreshing mez if needed.  Once ^^ is engaged, stun/stifle/DOT/Nuke till dead.  </P> <P>So far, I've had rather good luck with this tactic using a 3 man group killing NB/Lamia groups in RV.  Group was Pally (Tank+Heal), Ranger (DPS), Me.<BR></P>

Nibbl
05-04-2005, 06:18 PM
<DIV>Not to be a pain... but can anyone actually post any numbers for fights parsed? All we do in these threads is argue over abilities with no numbers from fights yet nobody posts any data....</DIV>

Tanatus
05-04-2005, 06:28 PM
<P>Vlaven you did not got it ....</P> <P>6 person group with enchanter on average have 150-500DPS less then ANY OTHER GROUP. Enchanters reduce DPS of group overtime not increase...</P> <DIV>For last time... group with enchanter need 30s to kill mob but wont have downtime before next pull so 30s per mob susteined</DIV> <DIV>Group with warlock need 10s to kill mob but could have 10s downtime before pull next mob so 20s per mob is susteined</DIV> <DIV>What so hard to comprehend?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>About double up + single up scenario ... ppl what are you talking about ???? with warlock wizard or any other DPS class fight look this way - MT attack double up, wizard or warlock kill single arrow up in 3-4 nukes and join group on killing double up. Look if group fighting any pack of monsters that dont have any arrow up mobs - warlock and wizard alike can kill most mobs outright with single nuke</DIV>

ootpek
05-04-2005, 07:20 PM
Zeph your strategy is valid for sure, instead of concentrating on DPS out, you're concentrating on reducing DPS coming into your group.  Either way will work, but your method makes for longer fights I believe.  Over time this would mean less XP as mobs would die slower.  Don't have proof of that in parses of course, but you can see how that could work.  Nibbles...see my new topic with PARSES.  I went through a few solo fights last night just to look at them afterwards.  Tanatus...How about with a 2^^ and a 1^ the group takes on the 2^^ including the wizzie, I put the 1^ to good use with Beguile and the 2^^ drops in half the time with the extra DPS?  I then set the 1^ free and the wizzy can mow it down like normal.  I bet THAT would be a faster encounter with more group DPS than your scenario.  And talking about fighting a group of non-^ mobs is almost pointless unless they are much higher level as the whole fight will be over before even the wizzy can cast a couple nukes.  <div></div>

Tanatus
05-04-2005, 08:23 PM
<P>Ootpek - yes I did that too with my coercer it do help a little unfortunally... single arrow up mobs dont have good DPS, no arrow up = no DPS so speak...</P> <P>About speed of casting - you are mistaken my friend - most nukes (for warlock) have casting time 2s, couple 1s so landing damage occure very fast...  For my lvl 39 warlock maximum damage attack looks like that - Steal Breath on  pull (-600 nox mitingation) - Curse of Emptiness (upon whole group impact on mob -400 more nox mitingation) no if fighter HO up I attack at weel if priest or scout HO up - I turn weel into Arcane Fury/Arcane Storm HO Nil Distortion 1200-1750DD 2s/18s recast BSS 690-952 + 160 after impact dot 2s/9s recast Noxious Bolt 590-782 +60 extra on termination of spell 2s/6.5s recast, Flashfreeze 305DD/3.8s stun, Aura of Darkness (9s stun 450 damage dot), IceFlame 780 combined cold/fire damage +4s snare on 68% - all this damage occure in less then 18seconds </P> <P>About "pack" of monster - warlock have multiple AE (I dont yet have 2 highest - only lvl 39) but even with what I have Absolution line have casting time 2s Negativ Absolution (I have M1) 342X5target/20s recast Nul Absolution (Adp 1) 320 + 160 damage in after hit dot X5 target /20s recast timer and I slow casting AE nuke + AE stifle that do barely 250 on unlimited amount of targets so with 10s of casting time I can land 1000X5target. So if you are charmed 1 mob and it did less then 1000 damage in 10 second you just stole those DPS group</P>

Vlaven
05-04-2005, 08:28 PM
Tanatus wrote : "Vlaven you did not got it .... <P>6 person group with enchanter on average have 150-500DPS less then ANY OTHER GROUP. Enchanters reduce DPS of group overtime not increase...</P> <DIV>For last time... group with enchanter need 30s to kill mob but wont have downtime before next pull so 30s per mob susteined</DIV> <DIV>Group with warlock need 10s to kill mob but could have 10s downtime before pull next mob so 20s per mob is susteined</DIV> <DIV>What so hard to comprehend?"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lol what so hard to comprehend indeed?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am not sure how to explain this to you, you keep posting that I dont get it but I still think you should try to read what I posted again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Trying again using YOUR example : </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Assume all mob have 10000 HP for ease of calculation.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Coercer group kill mob in 30 seconds so the total DPS is 1000/30 = 333/s</DIV> <DIV>Non-coercer group kill the same mob in 10s so their total DPS is =1000/s</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>IF you were to compare DPS the conclusion  would be that NON-coercer group perform 3 times as well (1000 dps vs 333)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I instead say you need to compare damage over a period of time INCLUDING downtime.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Using one minute and YOUR example.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The coercer group will kill 2 mob over 1 minute so their total damage over that minute = 20000</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Over the same minute the non-coercer group will kill 3 mobs so their total damage over that minute is 30000.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To summarize , if you compare DPS , the non-enchanter group will appear to perform 3x better</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you use a damage over time(including downtime), the non-enchanter group perform 1,5x time better. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Using YOUR DATA  I am claiming non-enchanter group perform 1.5 better then the enchanter group and that  DPS is NOT a correct way to compare them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now Tanatus are you:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1)  saying otherwise.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) If not, what are you trying to correct from my previous posts ? You keep trying to correct me with example thta prove my point.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Vlav tox server.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Tanatus
05-04-2005, 08:41 PM
<DIV>Nice try but its not work this way ...</DIV> <DIV>Again using <STRONG>your</STRONG> examples now...</DIV> <DIV>with coercer group kill <STRONG>1.5X time slower</STRONG> compare to group with ANY DPS class <STRONG>over duration of group existance</STRONG> ....</DIV> <DIV>So according to <STRONG>your</STRONG> data including coercer in group will <STRONG>slow down</STRONG> group expirience gain by 50% at very least. Again accoding to <STRONG>your</STRONG> data - coercer efficienty can <STRONG>debuff group DPS</STRONG> by 50%</DIV>

ootpek
05-04-2005, 09:11 PM
<p>"yes I did that too with my coercer it do help a little unfortunally... single arrow up mobs dont have good DPS, no arrow up = no DPS so speak..."</p> <p>Help a LITTLE?  hahaa.  When I get really going with the pets I can double or triple my DPS easily.  I'll have the numbers for that hopefully tomorrow.  My other post about charm DPS soloing just scratches the surface.  Soloing I can double my DPS with the extra duties of trying to stay alive. </p> <p>If those mobs have so little DPS do you stand beside them on your warlock when you're nuking them?  </p> <p>My point is that in a situation with more than 1 mob it's faster and better for ALL of the group to be concentrating on the MT's target.  I don't care if the wizzy/warlock can burn down the add in 10 seconds, cause in 10 seconds that add could have output an extra 800 dmg for ME instead.  Meanwhile the wizzie could help burn down the main target of the whole group, killing it faster even.  Basically if a group can output 1000 DPS...and the coercer can charm a mob and add another 100DPS too that it's faster than having the wizzy split off his damage and removing the add the hard way because then the group is only doing 1000 DPS again.  </p> <p>And by having the DPS split for any amount of time, you are lengthening the time that mobs are causing damage and using up more healer power.  My way you reduce the amount of mobs faster, removing incoming damage sooner, freeing up priest power for THEIR nukes.  </p> In an AE situation with a "pack" I don't usually charm as I know that the 4 mobs there will be dead in 20 seconds.  Waste of power for me to cast a 36 second charm when all the mobs will be dead in 20.  I'm talking about more difficult encounters where reducing the incoming damage is important and maximizing the outgoing DPS and rate that mobs drop is too. <div></div>

Tanatus
05-04-2005, 09:35 PM
<P>ootpek look I have played a lot with charm after it been stealth fixed at some point so it start actually stick on mobs....</P> <P>Charmed pets nowhere near effective as they were in EQ1 because of different game mechanic... Primary damage in EQ1 monsters deliver from regular melee attack plus you could double it by triggering for NPC duelwield mode... In EQ2 main sourse of DPS mobs and players alike is specials.. AI of monsters builded in way that first attack that actually performed is special with highest damage (Barrage/Crushing Blow) following by special attack that give monster extra attack in same round (like Wild Swing) - once monster used specials it start do regular melee attack untill timer for specials resets. </P> <P>In other words to get any DPS of pet within group or within solo you have to land Beguile before mob used its special. W/o specials mod not dangerous... So your ideal pet is NPC warlock, wizard, sorceror, scout in this order, Worst pets are - enchanter, priests, fighters NPC (last category bad because of very slow reset specials - if pet can land Barrage/Crushing blow you will see HUGE dent in other monster HP pool)</P> <P>Bear in mind I dont telling you that charm is bad - no it have its uses but in current form its very limited use.... You restricted by the pets - you need warlock, wizard, sorc or scout pet for susteined DPS... If you can manage charm something before anyone engaged in combat - fighters pets if they not miss their special can land very very massive attack via Barrage/Crushing blow. You limited by con of pets - charming pet w/o arrow pointless really is. The only case then charm worth while is then you have groups like 2 double up + 1 arrow up or at least 1 double up + 1 single arrow up. From my memory I know only 2 place of such kind - Nektulos Castle Return (most groups are 2 double up + 1 single up) and RiverVale nighblood area where nighbloods comes as a double up and lamia's that accompany em is single arrow up...</P> <P>Duration of charm (36s) and existing bug that allow mob keep group buffs (namely YOUR buffs with mental resistance) making recharming same mob for more or less reasonable amount of time impossible (for experiment try next - find single solo mob and charm it .. wait till charm decay on it own check duration, try recharm it again ... check how long now charm stay ... try charm third time ....)</P> <P>Dont get me wrong Charm can have great potential, that's a reason why I made coercer but in current form its nothing more but fun fluff spell (well the only fun spell we have I'd say)</P>

Vlaven
05-04-2005, 09:36 PM
<P>I think this is hopeless.</P> <P> </P> <P>Review of the thread : </P> <P>1) A guy post to ask to post data to compare DPS with or without enchanter</P> <P>2) I reply to post that a better comparaison would be to post damage over a period of time so we can include downtime in comparaison</P> <P>3) Tanatus post I am wrong</P> <P>4) I clarify saying I still think I am right</P> <P>5) Tantanus post an example and maintain I am wrong</P> <P>6) I use tantanus example to show that damage over a period of time (using tantanus data) give group without coercer is 1.5 better than group with coercer</P> <P>7) Tantanus post again to say I am still wrong and conclude that corcer group is 1.5 times slower. </P> <P>So [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], you post 3 times I am wrong only to reach the same number i have?  You sure you reading before typing? I never said coercer dont need a DPS boost, I said we need to calculate damage over time to correctly compare and I still say this.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

Nerj
05-04-2005, 09:54 PM
<DIV>Vlaven, I see the point you are trying to make. However, the problem with yours, is that the fights take longer to make up the difference. Look at it this way.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In your versions a group with an Enchanter going full bore non-stop will kill 2 MOBs in 60sec. The Non-Enchanter group will kill 3 MOBs in 50sec. That is why things are looked at in DPS in order to remove the time variance. In the worse cases scenario, if you stop fight after 50 sec 1 Mob dead compared to 3 MOBs dead</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you try your example, with how long will it take to kill 3 MOBs then the non-Enchanter group takes 50 Secs to do it and the Enchanter Group will take 90 Secs. to do it. Not quite a 3-to-1 difference either, but they could have killed two more MOBs in that time period. In addition, during the downtime they could have disarmed a chest or have done something else benefiting the group. With non-stop fighting you run the risk of losing more DPS having Scout disarm chest in battle or by opening it and geting a trap that could kill the group (dazzle comes to mind). Both of which are not "Group Enhancing" situations. </DIV>

ootpek
05-04-2005, 10:22 PM
Coercers can do LOTS.  And some of what they do is subtle.  Maybe everyones math is suspect?  Even mine?  Probably. We all look for what we want or expect to see.  And it's probably what we want to do ourselves that is fun that we concentrate on. So you want to do DPS...enchanter CAN do it...but it's different than any other class. So you want to help a group survive?  Mez, AE mez, stun stiffle etc can go a long way there. So you want to buff and help the group with power and haste...sure we can do that.  You get into calculas if you want to add that all together <font size="5">Coercer<font size="1">dps<font size="5">= (Charm + Dot + Nuke)/time + delta Group<font size="1">dps<font size="5">(haste+clarity)/time + Mob<font size="1">dps<font size="5">(Charmed Mezzed Stunned Stiffled)/time <font size="3"> <font size="2">Basically we can add dps alot alone, add dps to the group with our buffs, and subtract the dps of mobs coming in alot too.  Add those up all together and you get Coercer effective DPS.  100 DPS ourselves + say 100 DPS total added to the group with haste and clarity + mobs we charm or mez are NOT doing DPS so lets add that too, 100 DPS= 300 DPS?  I'm pretty happy with that.  Obviosly each aspect of that changes with the type of encounter, group makeup, and mobs you're fighting...so any part of the three main things we do can grow or shrink...but overall it should come out to the same number somewhere.  Any comments on that as a better measure of what we actually do for a group?  </font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font>

Nerj
05-04-2005, 10:35 PM
Good idea that ootpek. But you also need a delta in there for comparison sake. For Example, you mention stun -- when trying to balance this again another Mage classes stun need to figure duration and damage for both in too. Hopefully the DEVs use these type of tools when they do their balancing acts. as trying to get accurate data is extremely hard with short fights. 

ootpek
05-04-2005, 10:46 PM
Thanks Nerjin.  I'm trying to think why people are so down on Coercers alot and also trying to come up with why I think they are great and how I am having fun.  Thats all.  I know charms been broken etc...and they keep changing it and tweaking it...as of this week, how many of you HAVE charmed?  And I don't mean charm an add and use it every few fights.  I mean charm MULTIPLE adds If a group pulls a group of 4 mobs, 30 seconds you can have 3 pets beating on the 4th mob...charm breaks on the first just as the 4th dies, and thats the MT's next target and you work with your two pets for a bit and then another dies, and then 1 until you kill him off in the end?  How about charming 1 mob, kill another, just before your pet breaks free, charm ANOTHER.  Use the new one to kill the old one.  Rince and repeat.  Chain charming anyone?  Of course these types of forum threads just remind me of EQ1 with the non-charming Enchanters arguing with the Charming enchanters about DPS and pets etc.  If you didn't care to CHARM, maybe an Illusionist should have been your choice at 20? <div></div>

shwig
05-04-2005, 11:06 PM
I have always told my tank to pull multiple encounters at once to minimize pulling downtime and recently i've been charming whole 2^ mob encounters rather than mezzing to use against the mobs.  I've found it to be really effective since while under beguile they get all of your and your group's toggled buffs (haste, bardsongs, etc).  I've never really concerned myself with dps since I personally haven't heard anyone complain except coercers on this board so doing something like that is a nice bonus...maybe how it was intended to work. I think a lot of people don't really grasp how much damage stifle takes away from a ^^ mob.  Probably close to 60% damage over a fight. <div></div>

ootpek
05-05-2005, 09:01 PM
<div></div>Ok got a complete fight parsed now.  It was only 900 lines for a messy fight with a bad pull and the healer out of range. 40 coercer, 41 beserker, 36 conj and 36 fury.   First 40 seconds I am mostly mezzing as the fury was out of range and we have 6 mobs in camp and people were going to die. I manage a few nukes and output 8.5% of the groups damage.  Obviously this is BAD.  I should be putting out 25% or more but I was doing other jobs like mezzing and stunning and stiffling to let the fury run to us and heal.  In the next 20 seconds I charm 2 pets and you see an immediate change.  I go from almost useless DPS...I had output 295 damage total...to 3568 dmg at the minute mark.  Making up 43% of the groups DPS.  This would make more sense with the Fury healing and not adding DPS I'm right where I should be.  At the 2 minute mark I am at 8718 damage and 48% of the groups output.   This is when I am out of pets as were down to the last one. Fight ends at 2 minutes 40 seconds and I finish off the time nuking and dotting and end up at 42.8% of the groups total damage in a 33845 damage fight.  Too much screwing around at the beginning and during where my time was chewed up controlling mobs and yet I still end up almost exactly where I would expect in DPS.  I know it's not a full group etc.  Sorry...fixed the %, I copied a formula in excel incorrectly.  <div></div><p>Message Edited by ootpek on <span class=date_text>05-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:17 AM</span>

Azmode
05-05-2005, 09:08 PM
Tell me how much fun your having in 10 levels ootpek. 

ootpek
05-05-2005, 09:14 PM
Tell me what your real complaint is Azmodeous? <div></div>

ProteusTielaxi
05-05-2005, 09:30 PM
Ootpek... How are you charming two pets? I can only ever get ONE pet window up on screen <div></div>

ootpek
05-05-2005, 09:36 PM
<div></div>There is only one pet window.  But I do have 2 or more pets.  They both do the same thing when you command them.  You'll see something like this...and they will beat on the same target. You send your pet in for the attack!You send your pet in for the attack!<div></div>

Chath
05-05-2005, 10:07 PM
<P>I'm gonna bet that this will be considered a bug once the devs figure this out.  It would certainly be interesting, though.  Repeatedly charming mob after mob to send them in to fight instead of mezing them would certainly keep me rather busy during battles.</P> <P>Only level 33, though, so no way to test it.</P> <P> </P>

Tanatus
05-05-2005, 11:50 PM
<P>Roflmao Ooptek do you actually looked into YOUR data?</P> <P>a) charmed pet at lvl 40 do barely 60DPS (actually less since you said you been nuking) if you get charmed pet....</P> <P>b) lazy warlock at lvl 40 clocking 300DPS susteined 100% of time</P> <P>c) berserk in TANKING mode did more damage then you + your pet combined </P>

Azamien-Dermorate
05-06-2005, 12:27 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ootpek wrote:<BR><FONT size=5><FONT size=1><FONT size=5><FONT size=1><FONT size=5><FONT size=1><FONT size=5><FONT size=3><BR><FONT size=2>Basically we can add dps alot alone, add dps to the group with our buffs, and subtract the dps of mobs coming in alot too.  Add those up all together and you get Coercer effective DPS.  100 DPS ourselves + say 100 DPS total added to the group with haste and clarity + mobs we charm or mez are NOT doing DPS so lets add that too, 100 DPS= 300 DPS?  I'm pretty happy with that.  Obviosly each aspect of that changes with the type of encounter, group makeup, and mobs you're fighting...so any part of the three main things we do can grow or shrink...but overall it should come out to the same number somewhere.  <BR><BR>Any comments on that as a better measure of what we actually do for a group?  <BR></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT><BR><BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The problem with this idea Ootpek is that Coercers(and all enchanters) aren't the only ones that can mez/stun/stiffle/root or otherwise keep mobs from doing damage,  so if your going to count the damage prevented by stuns/stiffles by enchanters as part of thier dps (and btw this is MUCH, MUCH, harder to messure accurately) then you have to do the same for the classes your compairing againts.  If the ablity to stiffle/stun/ or powerdrain mobs was unique to enchanters then your formula would be preaty close, because then those ablites would have to be counted againts our possible dps.  But they arent unique, and it many cases we arent even the top classes with these ablities.   </P> <P>If your going to compaire dps to dps then you include indirect dps (which is mesurable in the method described by Nibbles) and direct dps.  If your going to count damage prevention then you need to broaden your spectrum because the numbers that we are being compaired to are only dps figures ... that isnt counting the other classes utilities.  It is VERY difficult to calcuate how much each person in a group prevented damage due to debuffs.  Especially since most spells in eq2 have multiple effects and a large number of classes have ablities to reduce mob damage in some form.  </P> <P>So since its nearly impossible to compare damage prevented (atleast in a consistant manor) to other classes ablities to prevent damage, then its only reasonable to compair the one thing we can do.  DPS (which includes indirect dps) is the only mesureing stick, that we, the players; can compare ourselves to other classes with any type of accuracy </P> <P> </P>

Chath
05-06-2005, 05:50 AM
<P>But couldn't you also parse the damage that the mobs do and compare those?  To the extent that a party member in the group is lowering mob DPS, it should be readily apparent that way.</P> <P> </P>

ootpek
05-06-2005, 06:39 PM
You could try to parse damage that mobs ARENT doing...but then you need a baseline of what each typical mob outputs to compare against.  It gets very complicated for sure.  Hell just trying to write a script to parse MY pet's damage is a pain.  Thankfully I am now on vacation and going to stop do that for the weekend and drink lots.  Will return to trying that Monday.  <div></div>

Padi
05-07-2005, 02:41 AM
<P>It's funny just how blind and stupid people can be when they want to convince everyone their class is worthless?</P> <P><SPAN>Vlaven</SPAN> posts a mothed of parsing the difference of having an enchanter in the group and not having one.  A method, he gave no indication if the coercer helps or hurts the groups output, but gave a specific method to test exactly how much he helps or hurts a group.  One that takes in all offensive and timing saving abilities.  A method unbiased.</P> <P>He shows an example of why his method is better, because it takes downtime into the equation.  It very well might show enchanters slow down a groups damage output, but likely will show they do help, but might not help as much as another class.  Either way, it's a fair unbiased method of testing.</P> <P>All he gets is idiots trying to tell him he's wrong and coercers hurt a groups damage output, when his post says neither.  His post is a method of testing, not a conclusion, not a result.  He gave an example of what "could" happen as a result of using one method of testing vs. another to explain why his method of testing should be used and he's right.</P> <P>Comparing how much damage a group will do over 30 mins is the only way to take in effect how much breeze helps, how much possible stifling, stunning and mez'ing can reduce downtime.  It is the only method offered that accounts for anything other than pure damage output.</P> <P>If you want to proove that your class is worthless, then test using his method.  Test with people who will try to be as effecient as possible.  People that pull as fast as possible.  Test with people that don't have lots of uber self power regening items and with groups who do.</P> <P>Then and only then have you prooven anything.</P><p>Message Edited by Padien on <span class=date_text>05-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:44 PM</span>