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Nerj
04-07-2005, 12:56 AM
<DIV>I have read that DoTs are not doing the same damage that they were. Has that changed for us? Also, anything good come of it?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S. Having a nice discussion in this Thread <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=39875" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=39875</A> "Balancing the Scout Class" It appears that most scouts think that Enchanters are just buff bots that should do less damage then mosts scouts, they feel we should be about the same DPS level as a Bard. </DIV><p>Message Edited by Nerjin on <span class=date_text>04-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:10 PM</span>

Nibbl
04-07-2005, 07:05 AM
<P>Arguing in other class threads is like sleeping with another mans wife... only leads to trouble!</P> <P> </P> <P>People will ask for everything in their own threads and just posting in there gets more people (scouts in thise case) riled up increasing the post count and maybe drawing more attention to the class.</P> <P>Hoestly, the best way to communicate to devs is to just make suggestions for your class and leave others be. If ythe get "x" ability, great! it does not effect us. In the same sense, warlocks and wizards should not care if we do as much damage as them...</P> <P>Post suggestions and let the devs sort it out and then choose the class you think you will like best.</P>

Teler
04-07-2005, 02:46 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nerjin wrote:<BR> <DIV>...</DIV> <DIV>P.S. Having a nice discussion in this Thread <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=39875" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=39875</A> "Balancing the Scout Class" It appears that most scouts think that Enchanters are just buff bots that should do less damage then mosts scouts, they feel we should be about the same DPS level as a Bard. <BR></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>No idea where you caught this persecution complex, but as I read the other thread, Scouts try to actually differ there, discussing that the "Balanced on Archtype base" is not the non-plus-ultra and that you should actually include Utility and Restrictions into your considerations. Nowhere it is written nor deriveable that Scouts want Enchanters as buffbots.</P> <P>But since you want to drag that discussion here:</P> <P>How can you justify that a class that has </P> <UL> <LI>far less utility</LI> <LI>far more restrictions</LI> <LI>slight less tankability</LI></UL> <P>than you and assuming that Moorguard said</P> <UL> <LI>The DPS ladder shall be Mage -- Scout -- ... (open quote)</LI> <LI>Predators are to fullfill their roll as DPS class (also open quote)</LI></UL> <P>that you want the DPS Classes Predators to be subpar than a class that has as only drawback slight less tankability? Assuming that, in a good group (which are all in the long run), neither Mages nor Scouts really are to tank and the only drawback of a Mage is the slight less - unused - tankability. But Enchanters shall deliver for that drawback far more utility and DPS? And if that is not the case today, the Scout classes shall completely be revamed? What about the Enchanters who chose that class for the crowdcontrol aspect?</P>

Orki who Pos
04-07-2005, 03:00 PM
<DIV><FONT size=3></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=3></FONT></DIV> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=3>>slight less tankability? </FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=3>What game are you playing?</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=3>In the game i'm playing, i've seen scouts tanking yellow group mobs in the 40s, and mage classes getting one-shotted by barrages.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=3>While getting one-shotted by a random group mob might not seem a big deal to someone that haven't tried it, it actually does matter slightly, to a class that draws aggro more or less randomly from breeze, while the tank is pulling.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=3>-If the tank doesnt know what he's doing, you'r gonna be the one doing the dying, and most groups will see you, not him, as the problem.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=3></FONT> </P> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=3>Hint, clues can be bought next door.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=3>Now take your evac spell, and go solo some green group mobs while you laugh at the coercer dying to the same mob.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=3>(Read coercer, not illusionist.. you know, the gimped mezzers)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=3></FONT> </DIV> <P><FONT size=3><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN></FONT> <P><FONT size=3><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN></FONT> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Orki who Posts on <span class=date_text>04-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:05 PM</span>

Encantador
04-07-2005, 03:52 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Teleria wrote:<BR> <P>How can you justify that a class that has</P> <UL> <LI>far less utility</LI> <LI>far more restrictions</LI> <LI>slight less tankability</LI></UL> <P>than you ...<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Shall we restate this as it should have been ?</P> <P>. A liltle less utility</P> <P>. Far fewer restrictions</P> <P>. Far greater tankability.</P> <P>Utility? Since you have come into a coercer FORUM (the other thread is in Spells, Abilities, and Combat Arts) I suggest you spend the time reading about the so called 'great buffs' that coercers have. It boils down to 1. You might too try to follow a part of the discussion that happens over Crowd control and how it is a lamentably small part of this game.</P> <P>Restrictions? I presume you mean your positional ones? look at this from a mages point of view ... mages have the most ... can we stand within melee range of the mob ? do we get any bonus for being behind a mob? can we even stand some distance away in front of the mob ? Can we do damage while Stifled/silenced ? If drained of power can we do anything? can we drop aggro?</P> <P>Tankability? ROFL enough said.</P> <P>In the other thread no enchanter has ever tried to say a scout should not have good DPS (including bards).</P> <P>At several points scouts have said enchanters are there to boost group dps and are not there to be dps. In other words they are to be buffbots. In several places scouts try to rank classes and put enchanters well down the list. This should not be. Our DPS should be comparable with sorcerors and summoners.</P> <P>If you feel that boosting coercer DPS is out of line because scouts would then lack utility in comparison then I suggest you go raise a thread in the scout forums saying 'Give scouts more utility'. You will have my support. Though being in a scout forum in is extremely unlikely I would post there.</P>

Jehat
04-07-2005, 07:57 PM
Also, I don't think you have to worry about us overtaking scouts in DPS.  I have seen a good scout at level 50 make well over 100 dps even while slacking a bit.  Most chanters between breeze / mez only average between 0 and 30 dps.  I'll admit I haven't done alot of XPing since I made 50, and that was back when clarity only lasted 2 minutes. <div></div>

Nerj
04-07-2005, 08:30 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jehaten wrote:<BR>Also, I don't think you have to worry about us overtaking scouts in DPS.  I have seen a good scout at level 50 make well over 100 dps even while slacking a bit.  Most chanters between breeze / mez only average between 0 and 30 dps.  I'll admit I haven't done alot of XPing since I made 50, and that was back when clarity only lasted 2 minutes.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Tht's the point. If we don't speak up about our DPS it won't get fixed to where it is supposed to be. Meaning we are relegated to Buff bots. In addition, since we are a Mage class or DPS is supposed to be better then a Scouts. Our Utilities should not outweigh our role of DPS.</P> <P> </P> <P>P.S. -- Glad to see that we have no new problems from this last update.</P>

IvIoritu
04-07-2005, 09:09 PM
Our Utilities should not outweigh our role of DPS. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>why did you role a coercer? if you didnt want utility to outway dps you should have rolled a wizard, they have good dps and some utility like a mezz and some twitches.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and be careful what you ask for, as it is we are nearly just as good dps as some scout and fighter dps and we have crazy utility. crunch the numbers you'll find out. and if you still have 30 dps, and are complaining your doing something wrong and in that case again, re roll a pally and do freeport a favor.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Morituri Te Salutant</DIV> <DIV>50 Coercer, Aspiring Armourer</DIV> <DIV>Permafrost </DIV> <DIV>Fires of Heaven</DIV>

Nerj
04-07-2005, 09:58 PM
Oh no not again!<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IvIorituri wrote:<BR>Our Utilities should not outweigh our role of DPS. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>why did you role a coercer? if you didnt want utility to outway dps you should have rolled a wizard, they have good dps and some utility like a mezz and some twitches.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and be careful what you ask for, as it is we are nearly just as good dps as some scout and fighter dps and we have crazy utility. crunch the numbers you'll find out. and if you still have 30 dps, and are complaining your doing something wrong and in that case again, re roll a pally and do freeport a favor.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Morituri Te Salutant</DIV> <DIV>50 Coercer, Aspiring Armourer</DIV> <DIV>Permafrost </DIV> <DIV>Fires of Heaven</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>from the Berseker class.</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=4&message.id=5006&query.id=0#M5006" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=4&message.id=5006&query.id=0#M5006</FONT></A></P> <P><EM>"<STRONG>Some posters in this thread want berserkers to be a class that can switch between being a tank and DPS class at will, on par with a scout or mage. That's like a wizard asking to be able to tank if they don't use their damage spells, which is not at all what their role is intended to be.</STRONG></EM></P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Fighters are meant to fall behind mages and scouts in terms of DPS, while being at the top of the heap when it comes to tanking. <FONT color=#ffff00>Every class should be aware that if they have any ability that disrupts this relationship, it will be adjusted</FONT>. Because we want to anger our customers? No, because it's required for the health of the game.</STRONG>."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <DIV><BR> <DIV> <P><U>Quotes from Moorgard</U>:</P> <P><EM><FONT color=#ffff00 size=5><STRONG><U>"Some posters are citing the two-sentence class description on the website as a definition of everything the class should be"</U></STRONG></FONT></EM></P> <P>Now this one from: <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=chars&message.id=5736&query.id=0#M5736" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=chars&message.id=5736&query.id=0#M5736</FONT></A></P> <P><STRONG>"Damage Output<BR></STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00> <BR></FONT><EM>There has been a lot of discussion on the forums since launch regarding the relative power of each class when it comes to dealing damage. The intended order of damage output by <FONT color=#66ff00>archetype</FONT> is (and always has been): <STRONG><FONT color=#66ff00>mage, scout, fighter, priest</FONT></STRONG>.<BR> <BR><U>Obviously that isn't the order currently present in the game</U>. Right now fighters do the most overall damage, followed by scouts, followed by mages, and finally priests. This is a situation we are working to remedy, and Live Update #3 will make major strides toward addressing it."<BR> <BR><STRONG>Mages are intended to to do a lot of damage at the price of being frail defensively</STRONG>. With this major update, wizards and warlocks will see a damage output increase of up to 300% in the case of many key spells. These changes, affecting the classes from 20 to 50, should put them at the top of the heap when it comes to damage output. <STRONG>We are still in the process of evaluating changes to summoners and enchanters</STRONG>, but recent DoT stacking changes, bug fixes in this update, and buff timer changes (see below) should help the other mage professions feel more useful and powerful <STRONG>until their damage output can be thoroughly assessed</STRONG>.<BR></EM></P> <P>I do not see here where it say Enchanters are Utility, it says DAMAGE output better then SCOUTS > Fighter > Priest. All Mages have utillity. Granted Socercers have nukes. Therfore IMHO I believe that the Mage Sub-types were ordered to their damage in this order</P> <P>Sorcercers - High DD/ Low DoT </P> <P>Summoners - Med DD/ Med DoT</P> <P>Enchanters - Low DD/ HIGH DoT</P> <P>This is what I believe the DEVs had in mind. Simply because there is not a lot of diference between a 3K nuke every 10 secs and a DOT that hits for 1k and does 2k more Damage over the next 10 secs. Buffs are long term and can all be set before a battle begins. Saying that we are just utility means, set buffs come back in 15min and redo. I selected MAGE class to do DPS. How I choose to do it was as an Enchanter. For Utility I rolled a Scout (Jack of all Trades Master of none).</P></DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by Nerjin on <span class=date_text>04-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:11 PM</span>

Play-D
04-07-2005, 11:14 PM
I just want to convey my sympathies that you have nerjin as your self appointed spokesman. It's a sad day for Coercers. <div></div>

Majer
04-07-2005, 11:35 PM
Well said Nerjin.  One thing you have to remember , the Goodie Goodie Illusionist get more attention because ther are many more of them than us Coercers. Yes, the Dev's stated Mages should be top of the DPS ladder, but in alot of cases with us, not likely.  Even spamming nukes, DOT's etc, I get out DPS by scouts.  And even with most of my spells at App III to Adpt I still happeneds (only 24 right now). Yes, we are to be Mez machines (Which confuses me why we don't get more AE mez like Illusionist), and DOT machines, but still even just nuking and dotting I can not bypass a scout class. All Coercers need to start bugging, and submitting more reports for the Dev's.  Since we have fewer numbers we need to shout a bit louder than the others to be heard. I stopped playing my Inquisitor cause they started to get nerfed, and healers started to get over staturated in LFG when I was online. I started a Coercer for the Mez, Dot, features.   But Dot's should be on the heavy side to kill a mob before it kills you.  I nearly feel like my Druid back in EQLive days, of kiting!  Mez, Run away, Dot, Mez, Run Away, Dot.....even Root, Run Away, Dot.... etc... <div></div>