PDA

View Full Version : 2 Major problem of Coercer Class (CC and DPS) and way to fix it


Tanatus
03-14-2005, 10:26 PM
<DIV>As it stand now we really suck at 2 area's CC (and as part of Enchanter parental class we shouldn't) and DPS (and as part of Mage Archtype we should not suck here either)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mechanic of high-end game do not requied CC if you have 1-2 adds and that much maximum coercer can handle atm which basically limited our CC skill only for boss-pack encounters and extremely rare occasion then mezing mobs prevent em from respawn. In situation then group have 4-5-6 adds (raiding or farming instances) - single coercer petty much useless. Due to slow cast and slow recast timer on Entrall we limited in control only 2 mob with mandatory chain-mezing every 20-25second (because we cannt afford second resist and we cannt afford get under melee attack during control 2 mob or hell will broke lose and we lose control over both mobs). So IMO solution is simple</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Make recast timer on Entrall shorter 2.5-3second </DIV> <DIV>2) Make casting timer on Entral faster 1-1.5second</DIV> <DIV>With this 2 changes we will get in-line with Illusionist and yet wont become Illusionist-2 light version. They will have thier 2 mez line and uninteruptable mez and we will have our fast cast/fast racast single mez. Fair and square imo</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>DPS - tricky area to balance.... Obviously noone blur own class abilities. If I'd be warlock or wizard I'd be [Removed for Content] if say Enchanters would start nuke on compareable lvl (say 60-75% of wizard/warlock). If I'd be summoner (necro/conjurer) I'd get [Removed for Content] if enchanters DoTs become as power as summoners one - so this also no go way.... Yet! we have 1 spell that very unique and class defining for us - <STRONG>Beguile</STRONG>.... I believe this spell was meant to be our major DPS sourse situantional albeit and very dangerous to use (dangerous for coercer health not for group loot)..... Imo this can be fixed/tweaked rather easy either</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Make Beguile work on everything but named mobs and triple up (read any not named mob should be affected by Beguile)</DIV> <DIV>2) Increase duration of Beguile up to 3-10 min with random chance to brake depending on lvl ratio caster/pet, presence/absence debuffing spells and link stability of charm to one of the casters stats Intellect of Wisdom</DIV>

Scally W
03-14-2005, 10:47 PM
<DIV>I like your thoughts on the Beguile tweaks Tan.  I was thinking along those line a charmed pet could take up concentration slots.... After all you have to "concentrate" on keeping it under control.  Maybe the more slots you make available for the pet the more reliable the charm is and the longer it lasts. 1 slot =20sec duration - all 5 slots you give up your concentration buffs for 100secs of reliable charm a pop.  What do you think about that?</DIV>

Ma
03-14-2005, 10:52 PM
It would be nice if charm was made very useful for a coercer since they were intended to be the more offensive of enchanters and many players upon picking the coercer class were assuming charm would work similarly to EQ1. I feel that coercers should be a high dps class when controlling a pet similar to the way charm worked in the original EQ. They should loose some buffing ability for this but only enough that would make the tradeoff fair. They could maybe introduce this in an expansion where you can decide if you want to continue being a buffing enchanter debuffing enchanter or offensive enchanter by giving you spells that would greatly increase the use/power of spells in these areas. This is the same concept other mmorpgs's use and i find it to work great because it allows players to customize characters to their play style’s. Implemnting it this way would be the best because the choice would be yours as to the path of your character.

ariasta
03-14-2005, 10:56 PM
<blockquote><hr>Tanatus wrote:<DIV> Increase duration of Beguile up to 3-10 min with random chance to brake depending on lvl ratio caster/pet, presence/absence debuffing spells and link stability of charm to one of the casters stats Intellect of Wisdom</DIV><hr></blockquote>sorry but theres no reason that charm should last 3-10 min. its ment to be a cc tool. not to mention if it did last that long, while it was charmed you be considered to be in combat and power regens would suck. if you want a pet for dps go reroll a conj.

Tanatus
03-14-2005, 11:05 PM
<DIV>Mayo that would be nice really... It was a "Vision" I have seen coercer. Sacrofice buffing/crowed crontrol abilities for raw offensive power (debuffs/long lasting stuns/charm)</DIV> <DIV>Personally I dont like idea of useing concetration slots -it will disbalance game imo. All concetration things is no mana cost spells and usually way way to long duration which will be to much to ask...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have played high-end raiding necro in EQ1 and had my fair share of charming expirience (undead only albeit). I had my undead sequel of spells (charm, mez, slow, nuke) but so to speak once I start charm - the only thing I am concetrated off was pet and it way that should be for EQ2 imo. Heck I am recalling using Mummies in LDON hard mission as a pets 784 quadro attack, hasted and duelwielding they were truely cusinaters.... but of course no space for mistake</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On a positive note:</DIV> <DIV>Power cost, cast and recast timer on Beguile JUST FINE... Use yes very limited (lol I found it helpfull for completing book quests in RiverVale using solo conned advanced mob as a more or less permanent pets - enraged shadow hounds to be precise) and for finishing Lore and Legend Book (killing pack of fairies)</DIV>

Tanatus
03-14-2005, 11:10 PM
<DIV>aristama - charm never meant to be CC tool, not a single MMORG have such thing niether should EQ2</DIV> <DIV>Charming mobs in every single RPG was dangerous but very power way to do DPS. I am not mind stand in combat mode that long either - that's a price to pay for having temp powerfull ally...</DIV> <DIV>Charmed pet mean to be tank and DPS - summoners pet meant to something along lines of permanent dots. Consider difference between charmed pet and summoned pet like difference between Devastration of Warlock and DoT of summoner</DIV>

ariasta
03-15-2005, 10:14 AM
sorry but charm in eq1 was WAY over powering (thot hey did nerf it to harshly should had made the charm unhasteable and cant dual weald imho). they arent going to make the mistake of providing a class with an overpowered pet to farm named again. as a necro im sure you farmed armorer and supplier, as i did as an enchanter. charm is should be the #1 cc tool (tho it needs its casting time shortened) after all whats beter than a mez with dps? if you need a uber charmed pet that bad, go back to eq1 reroll you a chanter and go play with a mt pooka to your hearts content and you fall asleep in each others arms =)

Polaj
03-15-2005, 11:47 AM
<blockquote><hr>Tanatus wrote:<DIV>aristama - charm never meant to be CC tool, not a single MMORG have such thing niether should EQ2</DIV><DIV>Charming mobs in every single RPG was dangerous but very power way to do DPS. I am not mind stand in combat mode that long either - that's a price to pay for having temp powerfull ally...</DIV><DIV>Charmed pet mean to be tank and DPS - summoners pet meant to something along lines of permanent dots. Consider difference between charmed pet and summoned pet like difference between Devastration of Warlock and DoT of summoner</DIV><hr></blockquote>Not that I know anything about coercers in EQ II...But Bard charm in EQL (which seems a lot more similar to your current charms than the EQL Enchanter charms-Bard charm had a low duration and a relatively low casting time) was a very effective CC tool. In fact, it wasn't really useful in groups for anything but CC, but it could be incredibly useful for that purpose. Of course, part of the reason that Bards could get away with using it like that was that Bards wore plate and had a few more hit points than Enchanters.How would you all feel about a charm that carried a slightly longer duration, fairly stout damage debuff of some sort? This would help to keep charm from being the overpowered monster it was in EQL, therebye justifying allowing charms on three ups, and it would also give you a window to either re-charm or finish off a weakened opponent.Just a thought.

Tanatus
03-15-2005, 08:53 PM
<DIV>ariastama - charm was powerfull - but price was high as well. You need [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] load AA to survive if pet broke lose (CA-LR/CS-ND were mandatory), Using charm w/o Total Domination was mindly say not convinient. Even as necro on raid I normally had to use my comrad in arms to keep pet loyal - I was need mainly snare from druids/ranger, malo from shaman and tash from enchanter - but once everything was in place I had for 10 min pretty mean pet</DIV> <DIV>I actually farmed arena named wraith and pigs and yes it  was fun for while but guess what? soloing in PoWater zone in mobs for trade skill components were far far more profitable - and solo in PoWater had nothing to do with charming it was ... mmm.. we called it summon-kiting</DIV> <DIV>Charmed pets were vital for PoP pogression for ANY none "ZERG" type guild... Of course you can do like some TW guild bring on RZtW fight 72 primary raid force and 72 backup raid force or! you can do smart way and use 36-42 ppl raid force with 5-6 charmed ogres, TS and pigs.</DIV> <DIV>Lets take RD fight - again you can either ZERGGGG it or ... take 28 ppl go in next group grab some sentry charm em, haste em, duel wield em and kick [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] out of RD</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want fun, adventure, adrealine in blood all the time - then you need real charmed pet. But if you have ZERG mentality, Holy Tinity (tm) as core and the ONLY way to play then of course you'll see charm as a CC tool</DIV>

JohnJac
03-16-2005, 07:46 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tanatus wrote:<BR> <DIV>As it stand now we really suck at 2 area's CC (and as part of Enchanter parental class we shouldn't) and DPS (and as part of Mage Archtype we should not suck here either)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mechanic of high-end game do not requied CC if you have 1-2 adds and that much maximum coercer can handle atm which basically limited our CC skill only for boss-pack encounters and extremely rare occasion then mezing mobs prevent em from respawn. In situation then group have 4-5-6 adds (raiding or farming instances) - single coercer petty much useless. Due to slow cast and slow recast timer on Entrall we limited in control only 2 mob with mandatory chain-mezing every 20-25second (because we cannt afford second resist and we cannt afford get under melee attack during control 2 mob or hell will broke lose and we lose control over both mobs). So IMO solution is simple</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Make recast timer on Entrall shorter 2.5-3second </DIV> <DIV>2) Make casting timer on Entral faster 1-1.5second</DIV> <DIV>With this 2 changes we will get in-line with Illusionist and yet wont become Illusionist-2 light version. They will have thier 2 mez line and uninteruptable mez and we will have our fast cast/fast racast single mez. Fair and square imo</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>DPS - tricky area to balance.... Obviously noone blur own class abilities. If I'd be warlock or wizard I'd be [Removed for Content] if say Enchanters would start nuke on compareable lvl (say 60-75% of wizard/warlock). If I'd be summoner (necro/conjurer) I'd get [Removed for Content] if enchanters DoTs become as power as summoners one - so this also no go way.... Yet! we have 1 spell that very unique and class defining for us - <STRONG>Beguile</STRONG>.... I believe this spell was meant to be our major DPS sourse situantional albeit and very dangerous to use (dangerous for coercer health not for group loot)..... Imo this can be fixed/tweaked rather easy either</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>1) Make Beguile work on everything but named mobs and triple up (read any not named mob should be affected by Beguile)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>2) Increase duration of Beguile up to 3-10 min with random chance to brake depending on lvl ratio caster/pet, presence/absence debuffing spells and link stability of charm to one of the casters stats Intellect of Wisdom</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Agree, whole hartedly with the stuff in yellow, but all around a great post tan.  Hopefully they will "fix" us for the better, eventually.

Sna
03-20-2005, 03:04 AM
<P>A simple idea I had to fix not only enchanters but might also make the game more of a challenge and therefore more enjoyable would be to have groups of mobs actually be groups of mobs not just one mob divided into a number of smalled mobs. For example at present you pull a group of 3 blue mobs, there is no need to crowd control them as they are really the equivilant of a single blue group mob maybe with a small modifier. </P> <P>How about is they changed the encounter where 3 blue con mobs however really are 3 blue mobs and all of a sudden you need crowd control the mobs since they are all  going to cause real damage.</P> <P>Would this mean you have to have an enchanter in the group? Nope loads of classes have the ability to crowd control including roots, charms and stuns. How often do you think wizards currently have to root mobs in groups to control them? </P> <P>To me a game where you had to think and actually employ some tactics in your daily experience group would be far more enjoyable than a game that anyone who can press attack and target a mob can do. To me eq2 these days seems like a game where 5 of the group can target the tank, put on autoattack and just autofollow him around (slight exageration) but you get the point it requires so little thought its BORING!</P> <P>In summary if the encounters are more challenging the more crowd control is needed in its various forms. There would be a bad side to this since sure the people who want the game to be trivial will leave but the news is they will leave anyway soon as the next doom/quake is release. The long term players of eq1 were the people who liked a challenge and it is these people who SoE should really try to hold onto not the short term players.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

Dainger
03-20-2005, 02:31 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Snaig wrote:<BR> <P>To me a game where you had to think and actually employ some tactics in your daily experience group would be far more enjoyable than a game that anyone who can press attack and target a mob can do. To me eq2 these days seems like a game where 5 of the group can target the tank, put on autoattack and just autofollow him around (slight exageration) but you get the point it requires so little thought its BORING!<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> /agree.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Most encounters being "non-social" detracts from challenge and fun for me as well.</DIV>

Tanatus
03-21-2005, 09:29 PM
<P>I did not made a coercer to be CC [Removed for Content] or buffing [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] - I made it because adventisment box said - Coercer going to be champion of situational DPS - plain and simple like that. I dont care about nukes - if I wanted one I'll play my baby warlock who at lvl 25 nuke with his primary nuke harder then my coercer nuke with his primary nuke at lvl 50 (btw Adept 3! nuke). If I would wanted DoTs I'd play summoners. I want get what was promissed me by SOE - namely good functional charm what's all</P> <P> </P> <P>Snaig - be carefull what you wish for.... You already suck donkey balls in crowed control as coercer. Repeat after me - coercer -CANNT do crowed control - nada. Maximum you can do is control of 2 mob at time - and while you doing it - you dont do anything esle. Illusionist do a lot better in this area - they can control 4 mob. Asking for increase DPS from each mob within AE encounter wont earn for you any symphaty from any tank, any healer, any raider</P>

mckayormac
03-22-2005, 02:14 AM
<DIV> <DIV>im not sure why you say we cant crowd control. im a level 44 Coercer and i often go to DFC or Tower of drafling and control 2 to 3 ^^ adds alot. im not an illusionist so i cant say how they do, so if they do better i dont really care. i think your making to much of a big deal over the CC issue. CC is not the problem with our class, and if you cant CC correctly then its your playing not your class, because as i said i can control 2 or 3^^ while casting refresh and mana drain/dot in between. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem alot of younger Coercer's are not facing is our mana regen. i have begun grouping with alot of people with a pgt, screaming mace, invoker robe and i feel almost useless as there power never goes down. now with the new update i would say i am pretty much totally uselss except for the CC in a pinch.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i feel as if they are not playing there own game right now. they have to take us in a whole new direction to fix us. mana regen items are only going to get more common, so Soe has to come up with another idea for us , im not really sure what to say right now its kinda sad how un-usefull we are after todays patch.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>btw- if you in a guild as i am, we dont really give a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] what class u are. all are invited to raid.</DIV></DIV>

Tanatus
03-22-2005, 02:38 AM
<DIV>By lvl 50 most tanks (even paladins lol) can withstand 2-3 double up mob attack w/o taking serious damage and you dont need CC so to speak then you deal with 2-3 add only. You do need CC then you are taking about 5+ adds but then again as a coercer you dont have a tools to stop this amount. 8 second recast 2 second cast ... nothing much you can do</DIV>

mckayormac
03-22-2005, 02:53 AM
<DIV>i know what you are saying, that these days CC with a guardian is not neccesary with the ac they have. but i dont know why 3 adds ur ok but 5 ur not??? if your saying a tank can take 3 at a time. but you have 5. are you not capable as a Coercer of locking down 2 or even 3? and stunning another in between? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think you want to make an issue out of our CC for some reason. i dont know why. i think i do fine lol, at least my guild thinks so. we usually do instances with no deaths or maybe one burp. now when im in pick-up grps. ooooo boey thats another story.</DIV><p>Message Edited by mckayormacky on <span class=date_text>03-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:55 PM</span>

Tanatus
03-22-2005, 03:05 AM
<DIV>I am saying if you have 2-3 add amount of specials that comming out of em wont kill tank and once mobs fired thier specials (and tank survived it) you dont need mez em. Then you have 4-6 and they all not linked within single encounter - once they all fire thier speciall tank will die. And with 10 second per mob you simply dont have time to provide for tank enouth protection...</DIV> <DIV>Then you need mez single named - we fine we can maintain single mez infinitive...</DIV> <DIV>As I said 2 problem - a) you cannt lock mobs fast enouth - 10 second per mob assuming no resist that is your cap b) you cannt control for more or less long time more then 2 mob</DIV> <DIV>What we can do after patch it provide burst short term lock for swarms with AE mez - its danm usefull now a lot. I can see several raids where it WILL rock. </DIV>

mckayormac
03-22-2005, 03:12 AM
<DIV>the last time i got 6 ^^ was uhhhh never lol, where the hell are you fighting at? only time i got close to that many ^^ was maybe 5 in perma, but those guys are weaklings. hence why we had 5 at a time. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- cant wait to get home and see how AE mezz works btw.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Tanatus
03-22-2005, 03:59 AM
<DIV>Mmm last time it was Meeting of Mind zone but dont worry about it yet you kinda low lvl to enter <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

Nerj
03-29-2005, 07:34 AM
<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <P>After further discussions today, we've decided to hold back the priest revamp until Live Update #7. The reason is that LU7 will contain significant balance changes which could necessitate further healing tweaks. Rather than introduce a new system and possibly change it again two weeks later, we'd rather roll it out all at once.</P> <P>While this is still subject to change, plans for LU7 include:</P> <UL> <LI>Priest healing/DPS improvements</LI> <LI>Conjurer/Necromancer pet/DPS improvements</LI> <LI><STRONG>Illusionist/Coercer DPS improvements</STRONG></LI> <LI>Changes to the effectiveness of skill buffs like Defense</LI></UL> <P>And as I mentioned, this will allow us to work on healing aggro and taunt as well.</P> <P>Sorry for getting your hopes up for priest changes making Live Update #6, but I think it's worth the wait to ensure a more stable game all around.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Something to think about :smileyvery-happy: or worry about?:smileysurprised:<BR></DIV>

Ghouli
03-29-2005, 08:58 AM
<DIV>Yes, Live update #7</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its like a present from your grandmother,  you know you are going to get something but the question is are you going to like it?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will say its good to see a bit of attention,  SOE gets a few extra marks from me for addressing DPS,  but will save my final judgment for later.  </DIV><p>Message Edited by Ghoulies on <span class=date_text>03-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:03 PM</span>

Sekhau
03-29-2005, 10:52 AM
<DIV> <HR> Ghoulies - </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its like a present from your grandmother,  you know you are going to get something but the question is are you going to like it?</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <P> </P> <P>Perfectly stated.</P>

Tanatus
03-29-2005, 11:46 AM
Lets not foget that Live #6 still not in ....

Dainger
03-29-2005, 02:07 PM
And?

Tanatus
03-29-2005, 09:11 PM
<DIV>Which mean Live Update #7 due in July ...</DIV>