One spell I'd really like to see tinkered with for pvp: Barrier of Intellect

[Melmoth1820]

<DIV><braces for flames></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One thing I would really like to see changed for pvp is our lvl 40 pb aoe insta-mez.  It's a fantastic spell in pve, as something to give you time to cc multiple encounters, etc. etc.  but it's more-or-less garbage in pvp, because it shares immunity with our <U>three</U> other mezzes.  Conversely coercer has a pb aoe insta-fear, aka a form of cc that does not share immunity with <STRONG>any</STRONG> of their other spells, let alone the most commonly used spell to open up a solo or group fight with that gives the longest (save root) immunity timer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It seems like both these spells were intended as a get-out-of-a-sticky-situation card for the enchanter to play, but against players (not mobs) who gain immunities ours is simply not useful at all in that function.  Besides our aoe, which is logical to open up with against an opposing group, both our single mezzes can be cast while moving...one is insanely fast and the other refreshes extremely quickly--it's pretty much the easiest thing in the world to cast a mez on someone trying to kill you.  If someone is beating the tar out of me, chances are they're mez immune already.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, obviously, I'm not asking for it to be changed in such a way that it would nerf the spell for pve.  I'd really enjoy, say, a pb aoe snare in pvp, but I realize it doesn't serve nearly the same function in pve as the spell currently does.  So, what would blue server illus think about:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.  A pb aoe fear just like the coercer spell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2.  A pb aoe stun, same duration as the current mez.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3.  A pb aoe mez, exactly like what we currently have that doens't share immunity with other mez, only with itself.  (This means if you have two illusionists in your group, someone hit by barrier from one of them will gain normal-legnth immunity to the other illus' barrier.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as #1 goes, it makes total sense to me, thematically, that an illusionist could cause someone to have frightening visions, etc.  I realize this might be a slight pve nerf tho as it's easier to cc mobs standing there mezzed for 6s than those running around, tho it would be a pve plus that you could use this spell on things that have already been dotted, etc. as fear only have a % chance to break.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as #2 goes, in pvp it would be much more useful as stun immunities fade much more quickly than mez immunity so the majority of the time this would still be a useful spell even tho it is on the same immunity timer, technically, as other cc.  In pve it wouldn't nerf the spell at all in the ways we currently use it.  The only real concern is, I suppose, overpowering us in pve as we can already mitigate quite a bit of damage with two stuns and a daze.  Still, coercers have a 3rd stun (pb aoe dd/stun) on a shorter timer as we speak, so maybe it wouldn't be too overpowering.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as #3 goes, it doesn't change anything at all for blue servers, which makes it safest change.  The only real problem I see is, well, there's no precdent for it.  Every other spell follows normal immunity rules.  I don't see it as being overpowering in the least, the duration is extremely short as it is, but frankly, even if the duration on it were halved for pvp (and, come on, how gimpy is a 3s mez?) to compensate, it would be infinitely more useful than the present form.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm mentioned this in passing before, but I was just reminded to post this by the fact I used barrier in pvp for the first time in about a three weeks last night.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thoughts?  Problems?</DIV><p>Message Edited by Melmoth1820 on <span class=date_text>08-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:29 AM</span>

[Flipmode]

No offense but i dont want anymore of my spells changed for pvp.  This is first and foremost a pve game.  Keep that in mind.

[Melmoth1820]

<P>So, did you actually read the whole thing? </P> <P>Please explain how it would hurt your pve if Barrier were changed to be on it's own immunity timer, not the same immunity as other mezzes?  </P> <P>Please explain how it would hurt pve if Barrier were changed to become an equal duration stun?</P> <P>No offense, but it's also a pvp game, because there are servers with that ruleset which people pay their montly fees to play on and in every patch note there are changes made specifically related to problems/bugs/issues on the pvp servers.  </P>

[Mihos]

<P>Screw PvP</P> <P> </P> <P>Mihos</P>

[Fizwi]

Sheesh...you people <i>do </i>realize there are separately coded effects for PvP, right?  So they could change a spell for PvP, and nothing would be changed for PvE, right?Number 1 is an ok idea, though unoriginal.Number 2 would have to stun <i>only </i>in PvP, as we can stun enough already.  Might need the duration reduced also.Number 3 is probably the best solution, but probably the gnarliest to implement from code.<div></div>

[WAPCE]

<blockquote><hr>Fizwick wrote:Sheesh...you people <i>do </i>realize there are separately coded effects for PvP, right? So they could change a spell for PvP, and nothing would be changed for PvE, right?<div></div><hr></blockquote>Unfortunately, that was the original claim. It then quickly changed to "We'll make the effects different when it's really, really important to do so." I think that's led to more than a couple across-the-board changes and some resentment along with it.

[Davus]

<P>Frankly, I'm tired of seeing all these " PvP Changes "  come to the PvE servers.</P> <P>Why must the devs break our game to fix yours?</P> <P>If I wanted PvP rules, gear, spells, etc...  then I would play on PvP.  But I don't.. and won't.</P> <P>Many changes have been made to this game to please the PvP community.  That is fine I guess, but leave on their servers, don't ruin ours.. don't change our game play to match that one we do not even play</P> <P>/rant off</P>

[Flipmode]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Davus wrote:<BR> <P>Frankly, I'm tired of seeing all these " PvP Changes "  come to the PvE servers.</P> <P>Why must the devs break our game to fix yours?</P> <P>If I wanted PvP rules, gear, spells, etc...  then I would play on PvP.  But I don't.. and won't.</P> <P>Many changes have been made to this game to please the PvP community.  That is fine I guess, but leave on their servers, don't ruin ours.. don't change our game play to match that one we do not even play</P> <P>/rant off</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>And therein lies the problem.  SOE promised that PvP would not effect PvE but this has not been the case.  The whole entire control revamp was due to PvP.</P> <P>Also, PvP really shows the imbalance in this game.  Classes like Illusionists get majorly screwed with Immunity timers, cant heal themselves, and wear paper armor. They also cant put out the burst dps necessary to kill people fast.  Then end result is they come to the board looking for more mezzes on different timers rather than realize the game has fundamental flaws that will not allow an illusionist to be efficient at PvP.</P>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Davus wrote: <P>Frankly, I'm tired of seeing all these " PvP Changes "  come to the PvE servers.</P> <P>Why must the devs break our game to fix yours?</P> <P>If I wanted PvP rules, gear, spells, etc...  then I would play on PvP.  But I don't.. and won't.</P> <P>Many changes have been made to this game to please the PvP community.  That is fine I guess, but leave on their servers, don't ruin ours.. don't change our game play to match that one we do not even play</P> <P>/rant off</P><hr></blockquote> I fully agree, and this is why people who think PvP is good for the game(which btw, is PvE centered and mostly balanced around) should go play a game that is centered around PvP, and not a game centered around PvE. [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] PvP.

[Melmoth1820]

<EM>The whole entire control revamp was due to PvP.</EM> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's total crap.  The entire control revamp was centered around blue server enchanters complaining that there was so much cc in the game that they, being "the cc class" had no special role in groups, plus complaints that their class definining cc abilties were useless on raids.  So, they totally reordered the game's crowd control and made sure to put enchanters at the top, and then added the ability to cc epics to a limited degree.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The other big changes centered around lowering the duration of various crowd control abiltiies, both spells and melee stuns.  That also had nothing to do with pvp.   On pvp most spells and CAs  have a little button you click that gives you a seperate pvp list for the spell.  We've <EM>always</EM> played with shorter duration crowd control in pvp.  In the revamp they just decided to make everything shorter, it wasn't a pvp change.   If they wanted, say, mez to last a shorter time in pvp they would have just reduced the pvp value even further, not the pve.  They didn't want mobs being chain stunned over and over again, allowing brigands and other classes to tank mobs better than they should, so they nerfed pve stun duration...had nothing to do with pvp.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only specific change for pvp made was seperating stun and mez into two different things which was a long overdue and important pvp change (that didn't affect blue server players in the slightest).  Similarly I'm asking for a change that won't affect blue servers in the slightest (seriously, give me one way 2/3 will hurt your mob-killing?).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Things like immunity timers aren't a problem for enchanters in pvp.  Every decent pvp game has immunity timers, and people asking for immunity timers to be removed in pvp are pretty much [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  I mean, sure it would be cool for a change to never lose a fight, but I don't think it's good for the overall game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guess what?  SoE decided to introduce pvp to their game, and has several servers, all filled with paying customers.  If you don't like it, tough, why don't <EM>you</EM> go find a game that <EM>doesn't</EM> have any pvp. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S.  I've played plenty of other games, specifically built for pvp, and the only one that I've really enjoyed and stuck with, is now 5 years-old, looking and feeling 5 years-old.  All the best players have moved on, and everything has been figured out 1000x over.  EQ2 is fresh, and I enjoy figuring out new things with the game mechanics.  Plus, I really love my class.  First time I've played a class in a game that was fun enough to not make me miss <insert class names that mean nothing to you>.</DIV>

[Pins]

You haven't played long enough to form an opinion Melmoth. You have no idea why it was changed, in fact the change did NOTHING for enchanters. The change only nerfed EVERYBODY. The change was not good for enchanters, it was "good" for the game because it attempted to minimize chain stunning. You know what, they failed. The change did nothing except nerf everybody and people, like you, saying it was to give Enchanters more control are morons plain and simple. The whole revamp was changed beause of when PvP and PvE were combined, it allowed you to chain stun the PvE mob, while taking on the PvP group without any issues because the PvE mob was a joke as it was being chain-stunned. It was because of PvP being combined with PvE that things got nerfed, it was not just because of PvP, but because of the way the combination worked.Not only that, but [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] whoever's idea it was to give us the ability to stun/stifle/daze/mez epics, because it is pointless. I'll say it again, it gives us nothing extra, I would much rather useful abilities than this joke. Not to mention, power drains can go and [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] themselves in PvE, yet the reason why we're stuck with them is because of PvP. They aren't willing to do anything about half of our usefulness in PvE because of the fact that it will screw over the slight few who PvP. This is why PvP is a pile of [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], because of the fact that it stalls them from making changes(which have been needed for 15 months now) because it's all fine and dandy in PvP.[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] PvP, and [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] everybody who thinks PvP is good for the game. [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] consumers who want PvP, they can go and play some other game, or go play in the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing arena if they want PvP. I don't give a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about PvP, because all it does is end up in balance changes that [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] everything up. See Rangers, they're a strong powerful PvP class, and now they won't fix their [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ty ability in PvE because of the fact that it would [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] PvP balance up even more, yet the whole reason why people were "fine" with PvP to go in was because PvP changes wouldn't affect PvE servers. Well bull-[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing-[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].Btw, if they can make PvP and PvE spells different, then why aren't they truely different? All I see is lower damage/duration, never any abilities being completely different. Until this happens, PvP has ruined the game balance.

[Fizwi]

<div></div>I like my new daze!  I think I can lock down a single mob for longer with it that I could with stuns before the Great Nerfing.  I miss the extra mez duration, but it's not like mezzing makes or breaks my gameplay.  Root still lasts plenty long.  And stifles?  Not important enough to matter.PvP really has nothing to do with anything here.  Power drains have been broken since Speechless went out of style, almost a year pre-PvP.  And last I checked, spells still had different durations in PvP -- it's not like they just said, "screw it", and made the PvE durations the PvP ones.  And CC on epics?  Uhh...also nothing to do with PvP.I'm not sure where all the vitriol comes from.  I think some people have been so mentally scarred from playing an enchanter so long they see every change as a major nerf.  I think it's great for the game that other classes can't chainstun nearly so well, and great for me that I can still do that.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Fizwick on <span class=date_text>08-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:26 AM</span>

[Melmoth1820]

<DIV>Sorry, but I wasn't able to read your entire childish outburst.  All I could get from that was "waaah!  pvp!  waaah!  expletive!  waaah!  pvp ruined my life!  waaaah!".  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I didn't say the changes helped anyone or achieved desired goals, but I did state why they were done, which was explained by SoE themselves.   I don't need to play the game for two years to be able to read.  ^ ^</DIV>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Melmoth1820 wrote:<DIV>Sorry, but I wasn't able to read your entire childish outburst.  All I could get from that was "waaah!  pvp!  waaah!  expletive!  waaah!  pvp ruined my life!  waaaah!".  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I didn't say the changes helped anyone or achieved desired goals, but I did state why they were done, which was explained by SoE themselves.   I don't need to play the game for two years to be able to read.  ^ ^</DIV><hr></blockquote> Again, show me a spell that does something in PvP that is completely different in PvE, because obviously you didn't read my post at all, or you are unable to show me one of these. Because get this, there are none at all, and don't see damage/duration is the difference, because I want to see spells that are COMPLETELY different, not this damage/duration bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] that we get right now. It is why we have power drains, because of PvP.Yes I am very emotional about my class, because I've been playing it since the begining, and have dealt with [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] after [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] after [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. And I think PvP is crap and has ruined the PvE balance that this game barely had.Anyway, you need to have read my post before you commented on it, if you aren't willing to read it, then you have no right to say anything, so I'm emotional, it's because I love my class and want to see it improved, it's just like I am about raids and their crappyiness right now. Deal with it, or just shut the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] up about PvP.

[Melmoth1820]

<DIV>Like I said, deal with people posting about pvp, or go find a game that has none, because this game does now.  There's a feedback forum, go post there to your heart's content about how pvp is ruining pve and that you SoE to remove it.  Aside from that, stah-foo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as an example of a spell that does something totally different in pvp than it does in pve?  Alin's Soothing Serenade.</DIV>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Melmoth1820 wrote:<DIV>Like I said, deal with people posting about pvp, or go find a game that has none, because this game does now.  There's a feedback forum, go post there to your heart's content about how pvp is ruining pve and that you SoE to remove it.  Aside from that, stah-foo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as an example of a spell that does something totally different in pvp than it does in pve?  Alin's Soothing Serenade.</DIV><hr></blockquote> No, it doens't work completely different. It's a de-taunt in PvP, and it's a de-taunt in PvE. How is that different?

[Rayvne2]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Melmoth1820 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Like I said, deal with people posting about pvp, or go find a game that has none, because this game does now.  There's a feedback forum, go post there to your heart's content about how pvp is ruining pve and that you SoE to remove it.  Aside from that, stah-foo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as an example of a spell that does something totally different in pvp than it does in pve?  Alin's Soothing Serenade.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>No, it doens't work completely different. It's a de-taunt in PvP, and it's a de-taunt in PvE. How is that different?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Scout Ability Evade.</P> <P>In PvE it reduces hate</P> <P>In PvP it causes target to lose target.</P>

[Pins]

<blockquote><hr>Rayvne2 wrote:Scout Ability Evade.In PvE it reduces hateIn PvP it causes target to lose target.<hr></blockquote>De-Taunt in PvE, De-Taunt in PvP. Difference, none.

[Melmoth1820]

<DIV>One debuffs an amount of hate, one forces the target to clear their target window.  Regardless of whether or not the effects are analogous, the point it shows is they can make a spell work differently in pvp. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They wanted to keep the spell's flavor  as a detaunt, but since players don't accumulate "hate" like mobs they changed the effect to something that still makes sense as a detaunt.  The effect isn't the same though, because it couldn't be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Similarly, I'm not asking for barrier to become something it's not.  I don't expect it to become an aoe kill-everything-in-the-zone spell.  In pve it's an emergency form of cc, but in pvp, it's worthless in that regard for the reasons stated.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S.  Since we already have different damage ratings on weapons, cas, spells, I really don't see how it's pvp's fault rangers can't get a boost in pvp.  They can bump up the pve damage of their stuff as much as they want without affecting pvp.</DIV>

[Manyak]

<DIV>it works the same in PvP and PvE. In PvE when u use a detaunt, the mob loses you as ur target and goes to some1 else. SAME thing, wether its the computer picking a new target or a player picking a new target.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>this 'hate' thing is only the script the computer uses to pick a new target. but the spell itself still does exactly the same thing.</DIV>

[Rayvne2]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DaMutation wrote:<BR> <DIV>it works the same in PvP and PvE. In PvE when u use a detaunt, the mob loses you as ur target and goes to some1 else. SAME thing, wether its the computer picking a new target or a player picking a new target.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>this 'hate' thing is only the script the computer uses to pick a new target. but the spell itself still does exactly the same thing.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I have to disagree with the two people saying that is does the same thing.</P> <P>Reducing your hate level on a mob and you clearing yourself off someones target window are two separate things.  Evade doesn't force a mob to change target in PvE as long as the scout is high enough on the hate list.  It shows that they could definately make a spell do two different things depending on a PvE or PvP target.  But why would they want to make a spelll completely different PvE vs PvP?  It makes far more sense to make smaller changes and keep the flavor of the spell the same.</P> <P>Eventually the PvP spell table will have greater differences with the PvE table because they need to sort out resist checks in PvP sooner or later.  As people get better geared the difference in effectiveness between PvP melee dps and mage dps keeps getting wider and wider.  They could very easily nerf classes in PvP without it effecting their utility in PvE so I doubt it is really changing SOEs vision for class roles and fixes.</P> <P>I also can't really agree with people saying that the introduction of PvP has adversely effected PvE.  I believe that EQ2 has taken a large forward step since the release of KoS in whichever environment you choose to play.  I am not a PvP junky by any stretch of the imaginatiion.  I choose to play on a PvP server for a little added challenge when travelling through the world.  Harvesting, questing, dungeon crawling, and non-instanced raiding is more of a challenge and most people would agree that if there is one thing that needed ramping up in EQ2 was the challenge level.</P>