LU24 - distracted us from the spell proc changes of LU23?

[Inquisiter]

Well LU24 is on the way and obviously it dominates our discussions. But have we let them off the hook on the spell proc rate changes of LU23? It had a lopsided effect on troubadours and illusionists.I suppose understand their motivations for normalising proc rates but Synergism  just doesn't seem worth the concentration slot anymore. I dimly remember a post from the dev who balanced that line originally indicating they paid careful attention to what our personal DPS was with the buff and adjusted it accordingly. The sweeping proc changes rode roughshod over that careful tinkering.Our personal DPS aside, I am often debating whether the pet is a better choice on raids over Synergism on others (assuming I have no scouts/tanks in my group for hasting).I notice they are adding a modest deaggro effect but we are in an era where wizzies Fusion for 15K - given the proc rate it just isnt that big a deal. Anybody got any before and after LU23 data? I always hoped they would up the Synergism proc rate or damage  to compensate. It seems the concept of different classes doing damage in different ways gets a bit too tricky for them to balance when we step away from straight forward nukes and dots. InqIllusionist? or Conjurer? of Najena

[Manyak]

<DIV>Actually, what i found is that if ur in a caster group, having ur pet out is more dps than 3 synergism procs due to the spell procs IT gets from troubs and wizzies.</DIV>

[Barobra]

<DIV>I ran a parser recently and came up with the same conclusion. Does a pet = more DPS then 3 synergisms? Well I ran synergism master 2 on multiple classes in a raid and it was really hard to find a class that could make it proc more dmg then my pet would do in a fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It really is hard to justify not using the pet. But maybe with the new de-agro.....even then though I am kind of iffy on that. If they only proc is 3 times in a normal fight.... thats what..1500 deagro? Is that worth less DPS?</DIV>

[Manyak]

OH i should add though.....never sacrifice a haste slot for the pet, 3 haste on any melee class > pet

[Barobra]

I haven't done any extreme testing on haste. Alot of classes can max there haste as well. And if they are already high haste and you just increase it by 20% does it really make a big difference?

[Pins]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Barobrain wrote:<BR> I haven't done any extreme testing on haste. Alot of classes can max there haste as well. And if they are already high haste and you just increase it by 20% does it really make a big difference?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>For those sure, but the other classes that don't have high haste already(Berserkers, Brigands, Bruisers, Assassins, Guardians) benefit a lot.

[Manyak]

<DIV>it also depends alot on the group setup.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>for example, if u have a dirge and inquisitor in the group, while cacophony of blades and zealotry are up, which is the time all melees just autoattack and dont use CAs so they can get all the procs in the world, then the whole group will be at capped haste anyway, no matter what their self-buffs are. in that case, illu haste would be completely useless.</DIV>

[Barobra]

<DIV>I will agree if I can see the difference in a parser. But from personal experience with scout classes (not at raid level but I have alts at level 30-40) they really mash there skills alot. And with power regen and quick fights.... how much auto attack are they doing? Maybe in a long fight on a named epic fight I could see it. I think its situational though for sure.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I mean how much dps increase are we talking about here?</DIV>

[Pins]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Barobrain wrote:<BR> <DIV>I will agree if I can see the difference in a parser. But from personal experience with scout classes (not at raid level but I have alts at level 30-40) they really mash there skills alot. And with power regen and quick fights.... how much auto attack are they doing? Maybe in a long fight on a named epic fight I could see it. I think its situational though for sure.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I mean how much dps increase are we talking about here?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>30-50% of dps for a predator/rogue comes from auto-attack.  Since most scouts do like 1000-1800(depending on the fight, etc.), that's 300dps at least, so assuming without haste they'll only do like 250, so that's 50-dps(at least) from our haste buff alone.

[Manyak]

<DIV>well the thing about having a dirge in group is that their cacophany of blades (equivalent to maestro, but for melee) only procs off autoattack damage. So, imagine autoattacking and having every hit proc 400-500 damage. THATS when they dont use CAs.</DIV>

[auk]

I've forgotten about the proc changes personally. I'm still happy with my DPS.<div></div>

[Barobra]

<DIV>Dirge is pretty specific. I will remember that though. How many times do they put you in a dirge in the same group? I guess for this specific reason it could be interesting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also 50 DPS is nothing really. Dynamism probably does more then that. :smileyhappy:</DIV>

[Pins]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Barobrain wrote:<BR> <DIV>Dirge is pretty specific. I will remember that though. How many times do they put you in a dirge in the same group? I guess for this specific reason it could be interesting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also 50 DPS is nothing really. Dynamism probably does more then that. :smileyhappy:</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Dynamism does about 30-40 DPS from my parses <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Manyak]

<DIV>Well, i actually happen to be the one setting up groups, although its more of a chore than anything hehe.... But yeh, being in group with a dirge is rare since there are better combos u can make with groups while STILL capping haste, but, its always an option to think about =)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, if u have a bruiser OT, putting an illu in group with him for haste is huge...it turns him into a straight DPS class while hes not tanking</DIV>

[WAPCE]

<blockquote><hr>Barobrain wrote:<DIV>Dirge is pretty specific. I will remember that though. How many times do they put you in a dirge in the same group? I guess for this specific reason it could be interesting.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Also 50 DPS is nothing really. Dynamism probably does more then that. :smileyhappy:</DIV><hr></blockquote>Heh, Synergism actually did exactly 50 DPS for me against Harla last night. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Barobra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Barobrain wrote:<BR> <DIV>Dirge is pretty specific. I will remember that though. How many times do they put you in a dirge in the same group? I guess for this specific reason it could be interesting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also 50 DPS is nothing really. Dynamism probably does more then that. :smileyhappy:</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Dynamism does about 30-40 DPS from my parses <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Thats why I use my pet instead.

[Xanoth]

<DIV>its really annoying hearing all this, as nothing irritated me more, than when we were given that f'ing pet...</DIV>

[Banditman]

Here's some hard numbers from a real fight.  Raid based, 5 minute fight with joustable AE.  L72 mob, all combatants L70.Ranger_01:  105k damage total, 27k auto attack, 26% auto attack.Assassin_01:  66k damage total, 19k auto attack, 29% auto attack.Shadowknight:  36k damage total, 10k auto attack, 28% auto attack.Ranger_02:  71k damage total, 10k auto attack, 14% auto attack.Guardian(MT): 32k damage total, 11k auto attack, 34% auto attack.Brigand:  111k damage total, 32k auto attack, 29% auto attack.Dirge_01:  47k damage total, 21k auto attack, 45% auto attack.Monk:  56k damage total, 22k auto attack, 39% auto attack.Dirge_02:  25k damage total, 11k auto attack, 44% auto attack.Assassin_02:  66k total damage, 9k auto attack, 14% auto attack.Assassin_03:  72k total damage, 23k auto attack, 32% auto attack.Troubador:  25k total damage, 9k auto attack, 36% auto attack.As you can see, Scouts run MUCH lower than 50% auto attack damage.  Across our raid the Scouts run an average of 30% auto attack damage.  Fighters tend to run higher, but not by much.  Noteably, Bards run much higher auto attack percentage than other Scouts because many of their abilites are buff centered.  With Bards removed from the equation our Scouts ran only 24% auto attack damage on average.<div></div>

[Jooneau]

<blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:Noteably, Bards run much higher auto attack percentage than other Scouts because many of their abilites are buff centered.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Sorry, as a Troubadour, I have to laugh at this statement, as it is essentially a euphemism for saying that our combat arts and damage spells suck. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[KaltenAlTh]

<P>I just went back over a few weeks worth of raid parses and Synergism is doing between 40-65dps for me.  So lets say 50dpsX3players=150dps.</P> <P>Does our pet do 150DPS on dragons?  Probally on Heriocs the pet will do that much but I don't have data on using a pet on dragons.</P> <P> </P>

[Manyak]

<DIV>Well i tested the Master 1 pet last night....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First i tried it without any buffs whatsoever, except seal. Against the solo stone golems on shattered weir, it was doing just over 150DPS each fight. Each fight lasted about a minute, so it was long enough to get a standardized DPS parse.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then i tried it in HoS, with a troub and wizzie in group. I had none of my buffs up since the wizzie ones were the same as far as DPS and power were concerned, and the pet got aria, maestro and frigid gift from the group. Against those triggered "Thulian Magus" looking golems, it was parsing at around 280 DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So....it might actually be better to bring the pet out. How sad, since i HATE being a pet class.</DIV>

[WAPCE]

<blockquote><hr>DaMutation wrote: <DIV>So....it might actually be better to bring the pet out. How sad, since i HATE being a pet class.</DIV><hr></blockquote> I agree. Unfortunately, we know exactly what will happen if we ask for 3 concentration-worth of buffs to be better than the pet.

[Nupr]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR>Here's some hard numbers from a real fight.  Raid based, 5 minute fight with joustable AE.  L72 mob, all combatants L70.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You say it was a joustable AE but were they jousting?  Running in and out of the AE is going to give them more time for skills to refresh which would lean the parse more towards combat arts.   I guess the brigand would be a pretty good example regardless.  29% is still significantly less than 50% but I think it's still worthy of being hasted.</P> <P>The haste becomes even more worthwhile with better weapons and also enhances their proc rates since that's based on the weapons original delay.</P> <P>But it's still more beneficial to certain classes over others.   And some combinations of classes can achieve haste cap without us.  I don't think there's a flat answer on when to haste and when not to.  I do think 3 hastes are better than a pet in the right circumstances even if it winds up not being our DPS.</P> <P>Dynamism definitely needs more oomph though.  The reason they "balanced" it down to that percentage and damage was to keep it in line with it's estimated damage output.  Now that the proc changes make it proc less, it should logically fall short of that estimated damage output.<BR></P>

[Pins]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR>Here's some hard numbers from a real fight.  Raid based, 5 minute fight with joustable AE.  L72 mob, all combatants L70.<BR><BR><BR>Ranger_01:  105k damage total, 27k auto attack, 26% auto attack.<BR>Assassin_01:  66k damage total, 19k auto attack, 29% auto attack.<BR>Shadowknight:  36k damage total, 10k auto attack, 28% auto attack.<BR>Ranger_02:  71k damage total, 10k auto attack, 14% auto attack.<BR>Guardian(MT): 32k damage total, 11k auto attack, 34% auto attack.<BR>Brigand:  111k damage total, 32k auto attack, 29% auto attack.<BR>Dirge_01:  47k damage total, 21k auto attack, 45% auto attack.<BR>Monk:  56k damage total, 22k auto attack, 39% auto attack.<BR>Dirge_02:  25k damage total, 11k auto attack, 44% auto attack.<BR>Assassin_02:  66k total damage, 9k auto attack, 14% auto attack.<BR>Assassin_03:  72k total damage, 23k auto attack, 32% auto attack.<BR>Troubador:  25k total damage, 9k auto attack, 36% auto attack.<BR><BR><BR>As you can see, Scouts run MUCH lower than 50% auto attack damage.  Across our raid the Scouts run an average of 30% auto attack damage.  Fighters tend to run higher, but not by much.  <BR><BR>Noteably, Bards run much higher auto attack percentage than other Scouts because many of their abilites are buff centered.  With Bards removed from the equation our Scouts ran only 24% auto attack damage on average.<BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I just wanna say, a 5 minute fight with an assassin only topping out at 72k damage?  That's 240dps.  I know assassins that can auto-attack for 4 times that much with capped haste/dps.

[Manyak]

<DIV>haha, that IS pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] low...maybe they were afk at the beginning of the fight? /shrug</DIV>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Barobrain wrote:<BR> <DIV>I ran a parser recently and came up with the same conclusion. Does a pet = more DPS then 3 synergisms? Well I ran synergism master 2 on multiple classes in a raid and it was really hard to find a class that could make it proc more dmg then my pet would do in a fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It really is hard to justify not using the pet. But maybe with the new de-agro.....even then though I am kind of iffy on that. If they only proc is 3 times in a normal fight.... thats what..1500 deagro? Is that worth less DPS?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>with the recent changes to your class it opens up options for sorceror's to do simmilar dmg as if we had a troubador in the group as far as de-hate and power regen is concearned.</P> <P>As a wizard, I will be requesting synergisim when ever i am grouped with a illusionist post lu 24.  </P> <P>I find it procs quite often for me and more often on some of my longer cast time aoe's and big nukes.  along with the concentration based single target de-hate buff your class is getting it will really give some flexibility if you dont have a troub and dont want to bring along some paly's for amends.</P>

[Manyak]

<DIV>u seem to be a little misinformed on some things......</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) synergism can be cast cross raid, u dont have to be grouped with the illusionist</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) we arent getting a single target de-hate, coercers are</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>as far as the DPS between pet and synergisms now, well find out after a few tests</DIV>

[Barobra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Barobrain wrote:<BR> <DIV>I ran a parser recently and came up with the same conclusion. Does a pet = more DPS then 3 synergisms? Well I ran synergism master 2 on multiple classes in a raid and it was really hard to find a class that could make it proc more dmg then my pet would do in a fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It really is hard to justify not using the pet. But maybe with the new de-agro.....even then though I am kind of iffy on that. If they only proc is 3 times in a normal fight.... thats what..1500 deagro? Is that worth less DPS?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>with the recent changes to your class it opens up options for sorceror's to do simmilar dmg as if we had a troubador in the group as far as de-hate and power regen is concearned.</P> <P>As a wizard, I will be requesting synergisim when ever i am grouped with a illusionist post lu 24.  </P> <P>I find it procs quite often for me and more often on some of my longer cast time aoe's and big nukes.  along with the concentration based single target de-hate buff your class is getting it will really give some flexibility if you dont have a troub and dont want to bring along some paly's for amends.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>Have you run a parser to see? I have, pre lu24 at least it would proc maybe 3 times on avg in a fight for a wizard especially. Is this supposed to change?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have actually parsed alot of classes to see if synergism was even worth it. Unfortunatley in most cases it was not. It used to be nice with fast casting classes but that was changed now everyone pretty much procs the same (which is the intended effect I am sure).</DIV>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DaMutation wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) we arent getting a single target de-hate, coercers are</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>curse those misleading patch notes.  It said enchanters.

[Manyak]

<DIV>hmm was just reading the coercer forums, i think im wrong as well. some1 said something about them taking that out? /shrug</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>any coercer reading this wanna confirm? hehe</DIV>

[Pins]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DaMutation wrote:<BR> <DIV>hmm was just reading the coercer forums, i think im wrong as well. some1 said something about them taking that out? /shrug</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>any coercer reading this wanna confirm? hehe</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>They have a single target aggro reducing buff.  They're talking about the fact their second stun is no longer a single target de-aggro for themselves.

[Manyak]

<DIV>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] yeh thats it /doh</DIV>