Frustrated

[Techavb]

<DIV> Last night I logged on to play and after 2 hours of having my lfg tag up I got invited to PoA. So off I went to get some AA exp and hopefully have some fun. But as usual the MT thought he had to keep breaking mez and play hero all the time and it turned into death after death after death. I'm not talking about in encounter mezzing because I don't do that. I'm talking about out of encounter adds that come along and head right for the healer. And I am very quick to get them mezzed and I have a macro made letting the moronic tanks know what I'm doing. But even so, the tank kept changing targets and thinking he was really saving the day by hacking on a mob that was standing perfectly still and not hurting anyone. Sometimes it was like 15 secs after I had it mezzed and he finally noticed we had an add. Several times this same thing happened and he failed to hold aggro and the healer got killed and then you know what happens after that. They all start dropping and its a wipeout, except for me because after the idiot tank dies I can finally mez everything and yell off aggro and hit the wall and rez the healer after everything is clear. And then I give my lecture to him but nothing changes and the whole scene plays out again and again. And this is not a rare deal when I get in a group where the mt refuses to leave mezzed out of encounter mobs alone. I'd say 90% of the groups I'm in are the same way and I'm so sick of it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> My suggestion to fix this is to make the mobs tougher and make death alot more inconvenient. I mean as it currently stands, who really cares if you die. Sure your armour takes a hit and you have debt for a few kills, big deal. I think it should be like EQ1 where if your group wipes, your corpses ly on the ground with all your armour and goods and you end up at the zone in naked and have to figure out a way to get to your corpses and retrieve your armour and whatever else you had on you. This would make groups alot more cautious and then maybe, just maybe tanks would appreciate the power of mez a little more. Or atleast they would get an ear full from the other group members for breaking mez and causing the wipeout and then maybe the whole game would become more mezzer friendly. I mean it's not just the mt breaking mezzes. I have to deal with the pet classes that think they are gonna save the day by having the pet jump on adds and quickly getting disposed of and then dying themselves after the pet is dead. I must say that I find that very funny and in no way am I gonna try to save the idiots after the pet is dead. I like seeing them die. They deserve it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I chose to play this class so I could crowd control and save the healer when they are in trouble and therefore save the whole group. That is what I loved doing in EQ1 and was hoping for in EQ2. But as the game is now, most people are clueless about mez or don't seem to think it's better to have a mob standing there not doing a thing for 50 secs than beating the crap out of cloth wearers and healers. I really think if death was made more severe and the toughness of mobs was increased, there would be alot more happy enchanters and a greater appreciation for the true power of mez. </DIV>

[TuxDave]

I'm kinda surprised that the MT couldn't pull off aggro off the healer.  As it stands only hostile damage breaks mezzes and not hostile actions.  In the groups I'm in, if the MT wants to pull off an add that's mezzed, they'll taunt a couple times which won't break mez and when he does (for whatever reason) that add is as good as his.  I surely hope your MT doesn't try to gain aggro through DPS.

[Methriln]

yea iv been in thos grps before and boy dose it suck.If i were you i wouldnt group with that tank anymore

[Zephanor]

<P>There aren't very many of us in game and therefore a lot of groups simply aren't used to playing with a mezzer.  Especially groups that tend to stick together (friends who group together all the time.)  Half the time I'm able to explain to them that they need to stay on target and I'll handle the adds.  If I die then they can do what they want but until then they have to trust me.  If they won't then I'll say thanks for the group and move on.</P> <P>It makes me appreciate my guild groups a great deal.  But they are almost sadistic and constantly pull adds for me to mez on purpose!  Hey, at least I'm not bored, heheh.</P>

[auk]

I have a worse story...I joined a pickup raid for Court of Al'Afaz a while ago... were having some trouble with one of the named groups. I mentioned to the raid leader (a WIZARD) that the adds are mezzable, assuming, I suppose, that I would mez the adds while the raid could take care of the main guy. Suddenly, the strategy becomes: "I [the wizard] will mez one of the adds, kill the other one").I'm sitting here, an Illusionist, the king of mezzes, in this MT group doing nothing but adding a little crappy DPS and mana regen.. I could easily and quickly lock down two heroic-ish mobs for the entire time, yet the WIZARD is mezzing.And yes, we did wipe again, until we were able to kill both adds and pull the named before the encounter reset./sigh<div></div>

[Ghu]

<P>My Illusionist is onlt lvl 38 atm. I have only grouped with a small group of players. We all made alts together and have been building them up. We talk on Team Speak while we play and we all work very well together...except...</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>They break every mezz I cast! Every one. Every last [Removed for Content] one. If I want to enjoy the thrill of mezzing, I have to go get a pick-up group! (CRY)</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Belizarius]

<P>Yep, unnecessary target switching makes it difficult and frustrating.  You can forgive pickup group people for not being used to mezzing, but refusing to listen and learn is harder to forgive.</P> <P>My guildmates treat me well, I can usually join or make a guild group, and I just don't group with anyone else.  Thankfully, most of them played EQ1 and know to let me deal with adds, or are willing to learn.</P> <P>If those are the only groups you can get, you pretty much need to play another class or forget about mezzing, rely on stuns, stifles, debuffs and DPS, and/or bring up your pet and use it on adds.</P>

[Methriln]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> auk wrote:<BR>I have a worse story...<BR><BR>I joined a pickup raid for Court of Al'Afaz a while ago... were having some trouble with one of the named groups. I mentioned to the raid leader (a WIZARD) that the adds are mezzable, assuming, I suppose, that I would mez the adds while the raid could take care of the main guy. Suddenly, the strategy becomes: "I [the wizard] will mez one of the adds, kill the other one").<BR><BR>I'm sitting here, an Illusionist, the king of mezzes, in this MT group doing nothing but adding a little crappy DPS and mana regen.. I could easily and quickly lock down two heroic-ish mobs for the entire time, yet the WIZARD is mezzing.<BR><BR>And yes, we did wipe again, until we were able to kill both adds and pull the named before the encounter reset.<BR><BR>/sigh<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>o yea every wizzard that i go to blackscale with insist that they will mz the mobs.Most wizzys in that instancei n pick up grps sound just like that guy you described.Why i quit grping out of guild</P> <P>Edit:Stupid spelling</P><p>Message Edited by Nethirln on <span class=date_text>05-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:45 PM</span>

[jin]

The moronic mez breaker has been a frustration for all , but it is really the fault of the developers.  EQ2  mez was never intended to be a spell that was required within a group.  Occasionally it can save the day, but more often it is used when it is not really needed.  As a result, many people, even at high levels never really appreciate it.  This got even worse a while back when they made an across the board reduction in HP of players and mobs.  Mez can really come into its own in a small group.  A  3 or 4 player group can be as strong as any 6 player group by using mez.  Ton of fun with the right small group.

[Barobra]

<DIV>eq1 mez = god</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>eq2 mez = rarely used</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So why did this happen anyway? I think personally it has to do with all of the people that just don't understand all of the abilities they have at their disposal. And one person may put a buff on someone else that may break mez. There is just to many ways it can break.</DIV>

[auk]

I only have problems in pickups... which I've not joined more than a few times since I hit 70. Everyone I play with reguarly knows how to play with me in the group... the poor swashy always sighs when I join <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> but the funniest thing is when Hurricane breaks his own mez.<div></div>

[Melmoth1820]

<DIV>Mostly I just play with pals from another game, where cc was very fundamental.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They just break my cc on purpose to rile me up instead. >< ><</DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Melmoth1820 on <span class=date_text>05-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:50 AM</span>

[Manyak]

<DIV>my guildies say im the chanter who thinks hes DPS =)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>after raiding so much, i dont even mezz in groups anymore hehe</DIV>

[110euph]

<DIV>I group almost exclusively with guildmates.  We've got 6 or 8 enchanters in the guild, most of whom are Illusionists like me, so they're all used to not breaking mezes.  It's important to have your pet on passive mode (Peace mode... whatever... the green dove. =) ) so he doesn't break your mezes for you, and be kind but firm when someone constantly breaks your mezes. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In EQ1, there was a message that would flash up on the screen, saying "Soandso has broken a mez!" Also, pets could not break mezes... if you sent a pet after a mezzed target they would say "I'm sorry, master, I cannot awaken that."   Implimenting those two things would make a WORLD of difference, because the stupid bruiser who wants to use his AE melee attack or the dumb wizard who wants to damage-root a mezzed mob would have his / her name displayed brightly on the screen for the open ridicule of all, and couldn't hide behind the combat spam to protect his / her anonymity. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The patch notes state that in the next LU it will be easier to determine who breaks mezes... I'm hoping they impliment something like this.</DIV>

[Xanoth]

<div><blockquote><hr>110euph wrote:<div> </div> <div>The patch notes state that in the next LU it will be easier to determine who breaks mezes... I'm hoping they impliment something like this.</div><hr></blockquote>new particle effect of a giant pointer reading "noob" would probably work wonders <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[110euph]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xanoth wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> 110euph wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The patch notes state that in the next LU it will be easier to determine who breaks mezes... I'm hoping they impliment something like this.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>new particle effect of a giant pointer reading "noob" would probably work wonders <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>BRILLIANT!!!  We can only hope a developer reads this!!!:smileyvery-happy:

[Xanoth]

they could possibly generate mez agro, the more times they break mez, the more the message starts to swear at them... saves illusionists having to do it... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />although thats kinda going too far, as its then fun to break mez and see waht it says next <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Zephanor]

<span>:smileyvery-happy:</span><div>LOL!  Yeah, that would be quite funny.</div>

[Pins]

<DIV>They added, Soso has awaken mob %t to the spatial area, it's very easy to see.</DIV>

[Kuragi]

I feel your pain.  I never mez in a full pickup group.  Not ever.  Not since I was in PoF pulling giants with a high 50's group, they got two adds, and dealt with them JUST FINE without my mez.   These were good players, mind you, with good gear and skills. The reason the tanks break mez is that they are trained to react to the situation where there IS no mez capability.  So they have to sweep up aggro on all adds.   There are other ways of dealing with this, such as rooting or charming, (Again the troubador ability outshines ours), but the original point holds:  They don't need to.  The mobs die very fast, adds are not a problem.  Unless you're swarmed and then you can't mez fast enough to help. So, mez is our signature ability, and it is useless in full group.  Mostly.  There are a few situations where it's desirable, and a good tank and leader will call for it.  Like, "mez the named and kill the side mobs first".   Mez is very useful in small groups, and solo, though.   Train a paladin to respect it, and the two of you will take stuff he never imagined possible. <div></div>

[Barobra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kuragi wrote:<BR>I feel your pain.  I never mez in a full pickup group.  Not ever.  Not since I was in PoF pulling giants with a high 50's group, they got two adds, and dealt with them JUST FINE without my mez.   These were good players, mind you, with good gear and skills.<BR><BR>The reason the tanks break mez is that they are trained to react to the situation where there IS no mez capability.  So they have to sweep up aggro on all adds.   There are other ways of dealing with this, such as rooting or charming, (Again the troubador ability outshines ours), but the original point holds:  They don't need to.  The mobs die very fast, adds are not a problem.  Unless you're swarmed and then you can't mez fast enough to help.<BR><BR>So, mez is our signature ability, and it is useless in full group.  Mostly.  There are a few situations where it's desirable, and a good tank and leader will call for it.  Like, "mez the named and kill the side mobs first".   <BR><BR>Mez is very useful in small groups, and solo, though.   Train a paladin to respect it, and the two of you will take stuff he never imagined possible.<BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Problem is when you think like this and you do actually get 5 ^^^ adds... everyone is breaking your mez cause they were in that mode before. Its a catch 22 if u ask me. Damn3d if you do damn3d if you don't.

[Sadaro]

It really depends on the tank and his tanking style.  I'd much rather have the tank aggressively engage the mobs to hold aggro than rely on me to mez mobs.  Two pairs of eyes watching for adds (illusionist and tank) work much better than a single person watching for adds.As long as the tank moves to engage quickly, this shouldn't be a serious problem.  It's only when the tank waits a more than 5-10 seconds, giving the healers time to build serious aggro by casting a few healing spells.  That 5-10 second delay should give the tank enough time to read the enchanters 'Mezzing %t' message.Even in these situations, we have some useful control options, including: fast stun, long stun, stifle, Illusory Allies, engage pet/root and tell target to back away slowly, etc.To the tanks breaking mez -- don't apologize if you're holding aggro.  As long as you're holding aggro, you're doing your job.  If you're breaking mez and the mob is going after anyone else, work with the enchanter in your group to understand what you both can do to prevent this.SadariMistmoore

[Barobra]

But the problem is what if the tank has more adds then he can successfully tank. Thats where the problem arises. And I have seen it many times too. Specially with weaker tanks. So when you have everyone in full AE mode there is no way to mez at that point and you die or evac. Thats the only problem I have in most pickup groups and mez.

[Lolthinae]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DaMutation wrote:<BR> <DIV>my guildies say im the chanter who thinks hes DPS =)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>after raiding so much, i dont even mezz in groups anymore hehe</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I'm with DaMutation on this one, at level 70 I very rarely mezz anything any longer. However, I'm now leveling up a coercer, and I use mezz ALL the time (and gosh I hate that it can be interrupted!!!). At level 44 I'm still mostly doing pick-up groups, and most of those I group with have no clue - about anything. People will be all over the place getting adds left, right, and center, tanks will forget to taunt and mobs will be all over the healers and casters, nobody will have a clue about encounter levels and difficulty, and whoever pulls will gladly bring in mobs that are way beyond the capability of the group. Of course, mezz mostly gets broken too, but sometimes it does actually save the day.</P> <P>Oh the joy of teaching people to make a /assist Maintank macro - and to use it........... :smileytongue</P>

[Sotaudi]

<P>The problem is what you see in responses to this thread.  Unfortunately, it is not usually the group not knowing what to do with mezzes.  The truth is that there has always been a tension between the concept using AE attacks to damage everything and take down the encounter as quickly as possible and the concept of fighting a well-controlled and orderly battle.  Again, unfortunately, most people appear to favor the idea that it is more efficient to just keep the damage flowing hoping the tank can control aggro.  This is a more exciting way to fight and even though it inevitably results in more group wipes, people feel it is more efficient.  This makes CC classes frustrated because no one seems to want to use their strengths and actually often consider CC a hinderence.</P> <P>Unfortunately, I do not think this will change. Tanks get their worth from being able to take a beating and hold aggro off of healers and DPS.  They are also used to being less worried about health than other classes due to high mitigation and naturally high hitpoints.  DPS classes with AoE spells likewise get their worth from dishing out massive damage, and having to hold back their AoE spells makes them feel restricted.  Neither of these things are necessarily bad in that, in the proper situation, there is not always a need for CC.  But these factors, along with a natural impatience with waiting that comes with modern culture, will probably always cause groups in this game to favor a more scorched earth style of play over a nice orderly CC style.</P>

[auk]

I don't know. I figure, unless your group is full of swashbucklers and berzerkers who do great pbaoe damage, theres no reason not to mez other encounters that add. Mezzing in an encounter is pointless unless you're in a severely weak group, but there just aren't that many classes who can do great AE dps to more than one encounter at a time. Not all tanks have pbaoe taunts either, those tanks that don't will have trouble keeping extra encounters off of healers and pbaoe dps classes.If your group is set up for pbaoe damage, you probably won't have an enchanter in it, and if you do their job is going to be mana bot and not much else. If your group is not set up for pbaoe damage, you're losing nothing by having them mezzed and gaining a lot.In the end its the group's decision. Just communicate a little. If you don't like their choice, leave the group. I have left pickup groups because of boneheaded tanks who rush encounters too powerful for them and refuse to let me CC. That includes rogues who think their taunts make them off tanks and DPSing brawlers who forget to change stances when they take a mob. Doesn't matter to me. If the group thinks it can handle everything without mez, I'll let them... until I die once or twice, then I ask if I can mez. If they say no, I leave.<div></div>

[lik]

<DIV>AUK ,you could not be more correct...Just reading what you wrote about the wizzard saying he was gona mez and not you, made me so F&^%ing glad i quit playing my Illusionost...MAN that F&*%ing  makes me mad.....I want that wizard to know he is a F*&^ing little  puke.</DIV>

[BaumeisterGeez]

<P>I usually do not join random PUGs any more since I ended up with a bunch of complete muppets too often. Instead we tend to build our own small group usually consisting of 3 to 4 players (recruiting from a steady 5 player base with 8 available toons around LV50) where everyone is using TeamSpeak. If we pick up someone from the "outside" on our way we usually insist on using TeamSpeak. Actually my experience is that you get much more organized players if you are searching for someone with TeamSpeak explicitly.</P> <P>With everyone in TeamSpeak mezing normally works very well. We usually have a Monk as our tank and mezing helps a lot when we end up with multiple encounters. Most of the time I am mezing based on my own judgement and sometimes the tank is requesting to mez specific targets. I normally only mez if we end up with too many high level encounters (usually mezing the ^^^ while the group is working on the side encounters).</P> <P>In our overall gameplay we do like challenges - not simple brainless XP grind. Sometimes we go like "let's see if we can do that mob with our small 3 people group" - sometimes we fail and sometimes we manage to kill that evil mob - and killing that higher LV mob is so rewarding in terms of satisfaction! However when it gets tough mezing is an asset and it is absolutely mandatory that you communicate with your group propperly. (I played FPS games for about 3 years with one of our two monk tanks - so we understand each others commands quite well and work together quite good)</P> <P>Last weekend we did the manastone2 quest with a 3 person group (LV56 monk, a LV50 templar and my LV51 illu). Everything went smooth, we did not die from any encounters and had a reasonable progress speed (although we had quite some tough rewarding fights). On our way we did meet this other 4 player group with a higher level avarage around LV55 - we did see them wipe two times while we were killing the very same mobs easily due to CC and good communication. In situations like these I am very happy with my illu - fun class to play!</P> <P> </P>

[Barobra]

<DIV>Mezzing is not needed. But if used it can be a powerful ability. I actually never use it in pick up groups because of the simple fact everyone breaks it. But when I am allowed to mez my class shines. You can mez and STILL do massive DPS. You just have to know what your doing. But thats the problem..people that just want to zerg everything. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shrug, just the way its going to be unless your in a tight nit group. :smileysad:</DIV>