Wizards true dps competition

[Grimda]

<DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Notice wizards and scout classes have become interchangeable for  dps group slots?  It's no wonder. Group with a ranger, rogue, brigand, swashy in your 50s and parse the results.  The scout is neck and neck with wizard and usually top-DPS if you can't get IC off.</DIV> <DIV><BR>Wizards die very easily, but we hit hard.  We gave up physical mitigation to earn the high-dps status.  Since scout practically has our dps and can stand-in as tanks, where's the equity here?   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I grouped with a 59 scout that tanked roost (including the named) for us.  Last night our ranger got bored and ran out and soloed a white con ^^^ giant. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Comparing wizard and scout:</DIV> <DIV>   - dps is very close (wizards on top if we get all our spells off)</DIV> <DIV>   - scout can tank </DIV> <DIV>   - scout has multiple snares, stuns and slows that appear as effective as wiz root spells</DIV> <DIV>   - scout has poisons (insanely powerful ones), and fewer resists</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>   - scout has anti-aggro attacks</DIV></DIV> <DIV>   - scout has better power mgmt and can fallback on mellee for long-haul fights</DIV> <DIV>   - has same utilities like invis and evac</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>[edited out since off-point]</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thoughts? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Grimdayl on <SPAN class=date_text>11-23-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:01 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Grimdayl on <span class=date_text>11-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:48 PM</span>

[eviljesus]

<DIV>My thoughts: "subjugation, learn to love it"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wizards are hands down the best soloing class despite of what you claim about scouts being able to do.  In group situations, though, we suffer in dps parsing against multi target encounters because of our lame ae's (even though icebound gift helps somewhat).  This deficiency in ae dmg is what you're probably complaining about and it has been a long established fact that wizards just arent up to par in that department.  However, we make up for it with our direct damage which is what we were put on this world to do.  Outside of this ae 'problem' we are the best all around class.  The nerfs to our roots are really insignificant and I suggest you 'think outside of the box' and re-evaluate how effective our subjugation skills are.</DIV>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Grimdayl wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Notice wizards and scout classes have become interchangeable for  dps group slots?  It's no wonder. Group with a ranger, rogue, brigand, swashy in your 50s and parse the results.  The scout is neck and neck with wizard and usually top-DPS if you can't get IC off.</DIV> <DIV><BR>Wizards die very easily, but we hit hard.  We gave up physical mitigation to earn the high-dps status.  Since scout practically has our dps and can stand-in as tanks, where's the equity here?   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I grouped with a 59 scout that tanked roost (including the named) for us.  Last night our ranger got bored and ran out and soloed a white con ^^^ giant. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Comparing wizard and scout:</DIV> <DIV>   - dps is very close (wizards on top if we get all our spells off)</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>not going to argue that</FONT></DIV> <DIV>   - scout can tank </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>not going to argue that</FONT></DIV> <DIV>   - scout has multiple snares, stuns and slows that appear as effective as [nerfed ]wiz root spells</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Their snares can break on damage our "slows" do not.  we have more effective means of not being hit</FONT></DIV> <DIV>   - scout has poisons (insanely powerful ones), and fewer resists</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Their resists are just as bad as everyone elses this is not fact but opinion of you</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <DIV>   - scout has anti-aggro attacks</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>So do we. its called mail of frost, oh and it wards for 475 points.  Tartons wheel is agro reducer too</FONT></DIV></DIV> <DIV>   - scout has better power mgmt and can fallback on mellee for long-haul fights</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>They burn through power just like we do if they're going for max dps, we can now "fall" back on mele too ever since they allowed our piercing/crushing skills to raise to the appropriate level.  I can mele for approx 50-75 dps with my own self buff called blazing grandur.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>   - has same utilities like invis and evac</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Thats a given they're a scout.  been that day since day 1</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I got curious so I browsed some of the scout forums and found some posting by an excited low-40s ranger: "Hey guys, I can consistenly solo +3 orange ^^^ mobs no problem."  Followed by quick responses, like "SHHHH Man! You going to call attention and get us all nerfed! Just shutup and enjoy..."  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thoughts? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Grimdayl on <SPAN class=date_text>11-23-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:01 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I can solo ^^^ yellows, whites blues greens ect.  And I can do it with far LESS risk than a scout.  But shhh dont want us getting nerfed now do ya??<BR> <p>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <span class=date_text>11-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:59 PM</span>

[Kablammo1961]

<P>Also ...</P> <P>Combatstats and most parsers will not break out DPS like you expect. I manually parsed a fight with Myself, a Warlock and a Scout, and the results were VERY surprising. You should try it.</P> <P>Warlocks have a spell that adds damage to other party members spells...and the Warlock gets credit for the damage</P> <P>Wizards have a spell that adds damage to other party members spells...and the PARTY MEMBER gets credit</P> <P>The Aria or whatever spell scouts have adds damage, an incredible amount, and if I remember correctly, the SCOUT gets credit.</P> <P>Part of the overall DPS balance was these spells that greatly increase DPS to an entire party. Unfortunately, they do not all parse correctly. I was greatly chagrined watching Combatstats consistently show me always WAY behind the Warlock and sometimes behind the Scout. Once I manually checked it out, Wizards are not broken, the damage reporting the Parsers use is borked. </P> <P>In a Solo situation (not in a group) its VERY hard to beat a wizard. Remember that scouts usually only get 1 Flanking attack at the beginning, and those are a big part of their DPS. A Warlock solos comparably, but multiple Mobs, while we specialize in singles or small groups. Complaining about group DPS is Silly.</P> <P>If you are having trouble getting groups, it is more likely your playstyle or personality. My experience since the upgrade has been an open-armed welcome, and often I get cold-called without LFG tag asking if I want to join a group.</P> <P>If you think Scouts are so great, find a friend who will let you borrow one of similar level, then do Splitpaw Arena or something like that solo and compare the differences. I have done exactly that, and I even have leveled a Dirge up to 30. And that is no walk in the park I am telling you.</P> <DIV>just my 2 cents worth</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sir Kablammo Suddendeath</DIV> <DIV>57 Gnome Wizard</DIV> <DIV>Nomads, Blackburrow</DIV>

[Grimda]

<DIV><FONT size=1>I remember someone posting that the wizard is best at "when you really need to kill something now". This is a great characterization of the most notable feature of the wizard class.   But what do you think SOE's theory is behind the scout classes?  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1>Wizards pay a high price (armor class restrictions and power constraints) for what appears to be a relatively narrow dps advantage.  This statement is simply true; after factoring parsing fallacies and playstyle differences.  Well if it wasn't narrow margin, the wizard and scout wouldn't be commonly interchangeable for dps slots.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1>So I'm wondering what you think SOEs rationale is for giving the scout class such high-dps and high physical mitigation plus arguably comparable features in all other areas? </FONT></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Grimdayl on <SPAN class=date_text>11-23-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:50 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Grimdayl on <span class=date_text>11-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:50 PM</span>

[curtlewis]

Set up your parser to included furnace of ro and protoflame. Those will appear as additional group members. Manually add their stats to yours.Frostshield will give credit to the tank. If he gets all show offy about how much he owns and how much you suck. Stop casting it and see his tune change.We do have a group spell that adds damage for each group members non flame based spell that lands. As long as it lands in 12 seconds. And the recast is 90 seconds. It's not very useful. Only about 2 spells will trigger it at best, making it a VERY poor use of mana and cast time. I don't know why they nerfed it so badly. It was almost useful with a 24 second duration before. But now... It needs to trigger on ANY spell, hot, cold, magic, poison, whatever. Then it will be worth the mana you use and probably not be overpowered.We lack aggro control. Mail of Frost, while nicely improved in the revamp, is still a joke. It's not enough. I parsed a raid recently. Due to immunities and stuff t hat cripple wizards on raids, I was being out damaged by over 50% by lots of people. Funny, only the main tank and I drew aggro though, despite my being 6th on the dmg list... The ranger massively out damaged me and didn't draw aggro. And he's got armor and hit points. WRONG! So did the MA... WRONG! So did another scout... WRONG!Yeah, I can solo some impressive mobs that many other classes can't... as long as I have plenty of room to root and back off and keep doing that until they're dead. When there's no room, there's melee. Where there's melee, there's a dead wizard and a scout is looting a dead mob.Sorry, scouts have AC and HP, they shouldn't ever be able to outdamage a caster. They have less AC and HP than other melee classes, so they should do more dmg than those, yes. But they should never out damage a caster class.Should I repeat that? Yes, I think so, because SOE needs to hear this...SCOUTS have ARMOR and HIT POINTS and therefore should NEVER outdamage a caster class (assuming the caster is awake and not slacking off). This is a fundamental balancing issue.<p>Message Edited by curtlewis on <span class=date_text>11-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:21 PM</span>

[NightGod473]

Wizards are ranged DPS, scouts are melee DPS. Each has it's own strengths and weaknesses. Most of these "balancing" factors aren't really noticible outside of a raid situation, when you start encountering things like AEs, damage shields, high spell resists/immunities and/or melee types immunities (crushing, slashing, piercing). Stop worrying so much about some other class showing up 3 DPS higher than you every other battle and concentrate on having fun playing your class. Personally, I'm having a ball playing, because I concentrate on figuring out new things I can kill and new strats to take down mobs that beat my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. This game isn't a competition about who's [Removed for Content] is the largest, it's about having fun. Focus more on the fun and you'll find the game is actually a really enjoyable, immersive world. <div></div>

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NightGod473 wrote:<BR>Wizards are ranged DPS, scouts are melee DPS. Each has it's own strengths and weaknesses. Most of these "balancing" factors aren't really noticible outside of a raid situation, when you start encountering things like AEs, damage shields, high spell resists/immunities and/or melee types immunities (crushing, slashing, piercing).<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>"Wizards are ranged DPS, scouts are melee DPS."<BR> <DIV>So can we get a free ranged auto-attack? It doesnt need to be high, just a 50 dps auto attack will help us a lot in long fights. If not, then we should have all of our spells mana cost greatly reduced. We need better damage / cost because melee attack is not an option in raid for us.<BR> <DIV><BR> <DIV>And about immunities... scouts can change weapons to change their damage type (for most of their skills.) However, if we fight a heat immune boss, we lose 75% of our dps. There is no way we can change our heat spells to cold.<BR> <DIV><BR> <DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>

[NightGod473]

<span><blockquote><hr>QQFatman wrote:"Wizards are ranged DPS, scouts are melee DPS." <div>So can we get a free ranged auto-attack? It doesnt need to be high, just a 50 dps auto attack will help us a lot in long fights. If not, then we should have all of our spells mana cost greatly reduced. We need better damage / cost because melee attack is not an option in raid for us. <div> <div>And about immunities... scouts can change weapons to change their damage type (for most of their skills.) However, if we fight a heat immune boss, we lose 75% of our dps. There is no way we can change our heat spells to cold. <div> </div> </div></div></div><hr></blockquote>Sure, they're called Forge of Ro and Protoflame. If you don't mind being a little more interactive, there's a whole range of 8 second cast time ironwood wands that hit for 400 (average) damage-you can even pick one up for every major resist group. I'll agree that our damage type could be spread out better, as really becomes obvious with heat immune mobs. We can still add some DPS throwing DoTs, casting our stun line (for it's damage, since it won't actually stun) and ice comet, so we're not utterly useless, but I agree it would be nice if we had a bit more spread on damage types instead of being so focused on heat.</span><div></div>

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NightGod473 wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>Sure, they're called Forge of Ro and Protoflame. If you don't mind being a little more interactive, there's a whole range of 8 second cast time ironwood wands that hit for 400 (average) damage-you can even pick one up for every major resist group.<BR></SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Forge of Ro and Protoflems cost a lot of mana, they are NOT out auto-attack. We need a FREE auto attack for long fights so our dps wont drop to zero when we're oom (usullay no longer than 3 mins even we have mana regen items.)<BR> <DIV>And for those wands... 400 dmg, 8sec.... that's like 50dps. Any melee class with proper buff can do double of this damage with auto-attack. The wands' cast time need to be lowered to be useful.</DIV>

[NightGod473]

One post ago, you said "just a 50 dps auto attack will help us a lot in long fights", now you say " that's like 50dps. Any melee class with proper buff can do double of this damage with auto-attack" Make up your mind. <div></div>

[Seyma]

<DIV>Perhaps I'm reading this wrong, but he's asking for a 50dps auto-attack; that is, in between casts, you get in the occasional strike.  The wands, as I understand it, stop you from casting while you're doing them.  Auto-attack can be used in between combat arts, tanks don't just turn it on when they run out of power and can't use CAs anymore.</DIV>

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NightGod473 wrote:<BR>One post ago, you said "just a 50 dps <STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>auto attack</FONT></STRONG> will help us a lot in long fights", now you say " that's like 50dps. Any melee class with proper buff can do double of this damage with auto-attack"<BR><BR>Make up your mind.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>If the wand has zero cast time and 8 sec recast, then It might be good. But 8 sec cast time is just stupid - it's not an auto-attack.<BR>

[NightGod473]

And you can start up protoflame and forge of ro at the start of the battle and they do damage even when you are casting your other spells, something melee can't do. But hey, know what, continue being miserable and convinced you're horribly broken-I'm going to go log in and have some fun. <div></div>

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NightGod473 wrote:<BR>And you can start up protoflame and forge of ro at the start of the battle and they do damage even when you are casting your other spells, something melee can't do.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>auto-attacks shouldnt cost mana<BR>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<P>Does anyone not hear me when I say we can mele too?</P> <P> </P> <P>t6 wand is 19-60ish, cast blazing grandur on yourself which has a 25% chance to proc for 120 dmg 3 ticks of 40, plus your mele and we have our "auto attack dmg"  and it costs no mana.</P>

[QQ-Fatman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <P>Does anyone not hear me when I say we can mele too?</P> <P> </P> <P>t6 wand is 19-60ish, cast blazing grandur on yourself which has a 25% chance to proc for 120 dmg 3 ticks of 40, plus your mele and we have our "auto attack dmg"  and it costs no mana.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>It's not an option. We cant survive raid mobs' AE attack. Scouts and fighters have much higher ac and hp to take hits. Also their combat arts can be used while running and have very short casting time (usually 0.5sec,) so they can always run away without losing too much damage output.<BR> <DIV>And Im sure you'll get kick out if raid leaders see you going melee lol</DIV>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> QQFatman wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <P>Does anyone not hear me when I say we can mele too?</P> <P> </P> <P>t6 wand is 19-60ish, cast blazing grandur on yourself which has a 25% chance to proc for 120 dmg 3 ticks of 40, plus your mele and we have our "auto attack dmg"  and it costs no mana.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>It's not an option. We cant survive raid mobs' AE attack. Scouts and fighters have much higher ac and hp to take hits. Also their combat arts can be used while running and have very short casting time (usually 0.5sec,) so they can always run away without losing too much damage output.<BR> <DIV>And Im sure you'll get kick out if raid leaders see you going melee lol</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>heh you got a point about that on a raid.   EQ1 I used to love meling with my wiz, had a 1K proc from POT that I augmented my wand with.  It would proc so much sometimes I'd draw agro with just the proc!</P> <P> </P> <P>Also at max int the T6 wand clicky nuke is 450-740 8s is just too long a cast timer, but I dont think they can reduce it unless they make the wand class specific.  Otherwise other classes (not to be named) would have a very nice nuke mana free.</P>

[Icehunter612]

As a player who currently has a lvl 37 wizard and a lvl 57 ranger I can tell you without a doubt we do pay for our high dps just as much as you do. Sure the wizard's starting cost is more becuz you are more int and spell realiant, but a ranger without poison is a sad sight to watch. And unless you make your own alchemist, you have a tough time finding good prices on poison. Also the high physical migiation is probably becuz the ranger had rare t6 armor. You didn't say what kind of armor he had but i'm guessing by how he was tanking lvl 58 heroics. Also even thought we provide good dps that is all the ranger class is good for. Do you know how many group buffs we have even at lvl 60? One. You know what lvl it is given at? Level 4. It's called pathfinding. Other than that we have nothing to offer a group besides being a backup tank and for that you have to have rare armor, a decent defense stance (adept 1 or better), and a good healer. So next time you go implying that scouts are too powerful and need to be nerfed talk to somebody from the otherside. Remember there's always atleast two sides to ever story. <div></div>

[massem]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Icehunter612 wrote:As a player who currently has a lvl 37 wizard and a lvl 57 ranger I can tell you without a doubt we do pay for our high dps just as much as you do. Sure the wizard's starting cost is more becuz you are more int and spell realiant, but a ranger without poison is a sad sight to watch. And unless you make your own alchemist, you have a tough time finding good prices on poison. Also the high physical migiation is probably becuz the ranger had rare t6 armor. You didn't say what kind of armor he had but i'm guessing by how he was tanking lvl 58 heroics. Also even thought we provide good dps that is all the ranger class is good for. Do you know how many group buffs we have even at lvl 60? One. You know what lvl it is given at? Level 4. It's called pathfinding. Other than that we have nothing to offer a group besides being a backup tank and for that you have to have rare armor, a decent defense stance (adept 1 or better), and a good healer. So next time you go implying that scouts are too powerful and need to be nerfed talk to somebody from the otherside. Remember there's always atleast two sides to ever story. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Sorry you are wrong - I play both a 48 assassin and a 58 wizard and can tell you that my scout is a vastly superior DPS to the wizard (or rather than my Wizard was as level 48 <span>:smileyhappy:</span>). I usually parse when grouping and have grouped with many wizards of warlocks around my level and always outdps them when i am using legendary poisons.  The scout basically never runs out of power and if it does I can do excellent DPS only using my haste buffs and legendary power. My Wizard has mostly adept III and legendary or fabled equipment and my scout has mostly handcrafter and adept I spells (except legendar weapons and 2 armor pieces, and a Master on my defesive stance). With the correct poisons I can stun, stifle and debuff any mob against any type of damage. Although I never played the assassin on raids yet, I can tell from the parses of my guildies that resist issues are much worse for a caster and that wizard can not come even close to scout DPS on raids. Scouts can switch to another weapon if the mob happens to be crush/pierce or slash immune. Scout has an evac that actually works since it is not interrupted if you are attacked by a mob, whereas the wizards evac is useful mostly for travelling.  Scouts have deaggro spells that can help them do higher damage, and if they pull aggro they can often survive it because of the reasonably good armor. Poisons are not that expensive, 1.50g in production cost for a non-rare T6 poison and around 3-4g for a rare poison  depending on how much on has to pay for the rare loam - I know since I have a 60 alchy as well. Thus, I also have experience with both  scout DPS and caster DPS and can tell you that since the recent changes went through</span> scout DPS classes are redicolously overpowered compared to caster DPS.  I don't know which is the easiest solution, but caster DPS needs a significant boost or scout DPS need to be significantly nerfed to bring back a balance.  On raids the DPS output of a scout is limited by the tanks ability to keep aggro, and a casters by the management of the power. Depending on group setups a scout usually does 50-100% more damage on a single target. In typical exp group the difference is not so apparent and the caster DPS can achieve close to DPS of a good scout. Right now there is <i>no</i> logical reason for playing a Wizard as DPS class except the ability to solo heroics. In groups or raids a Scout DPS is always better. I will probably keep the wizard as my main but that is mostly because I want to play a caster type-and have already invested so much into spells and equipment.  However when I want feel the thrill of being a true DPS, then I have to bring out the assassin <span>:smileymad:</span>.  Sooner or later Wizards will get some love and become a viable DPS class on raids <span>:smileyhappy:</span>, although we may have to wait for the next expansion. So in short - Wizards are better than scouts for soloing, and scouts vastly superior in raids situation.  In exp groups the scouts are only slightly superior to wizards and a wizard can sometimes come out on top because of higher player skill or better equipment. And as a small hint if you have trouble soloing heroics with your ranger - buy a few "Phastasmal Vision" stun poisons. Im sure they will help a great deal. If you happen to be on the Splitpaw server - send me a tell and I will hand one over for you to try out for free. <p>Message Edited by masseman on <span class=date_text>11-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:20 AM</span>

[NightGod473]

<span><blockquote><hr>masseman wrote:<span>Sorry you are wrong - I play both a 48 assassin and a 58 wizard and can tell you that my scout is a vastly superior DPS to the wizard (or rather than my Wizard was as level 48 <span>:smileyhappy:</span>). I usually parse when grouping and have grouped with many wizards of warlocks around my level and always outdps them when i am using legendary poisons.  The scout basically never runs out of power and if it does I can do excellent DPS only using my haste buffs and legendary power. My Wizard has mostly adept III and legendary or fabled equipment and my scout has mostly handcrafter and adept I spells (except legendar weapons and 2 armor pieces, and a Master on my defesive stance).</span><p>Message Edited by masseman on <span class="date_text">11-28-2005</span> <span class="time_text">07:20 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>To be fair, I'm betting that your gear on your 48 assassin is far superior to most wizards/warlocks that you are grouping with. Dual legendary weapons and legendary poisons adds up to a huge edge over the average player.</span><div></div>

[Icehunter612]

<div></div>I am on the Lavastorm Server and like it or not predator dps is extremely poison reliant. And prices on t6 rare stuff just came down after my week of not playing my ranger. And i have seen the poison you are talking about. Awesome yes, but not 24 g awesome. And most t6 rare poisons on my server that are DD are atleast 14 g. I'm not saying that anybody should be nerfed but instead the wizzy's spells should be increased. Over all the ranger has more money to spend over a long period of time as opposed to the wizzy's massive starting cost. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Icehunter612 on <span class=date_text>11-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:02 PM</span>

[massem]

<span><blockquote><hr>Icehunter612 wrote:<div></div>I am on the Lavastorm Server and like it or not predator dps is extremely poison reliant. And prices on t6 rare stuff just came down after my week of not playing my ranger. And i have seen the poison you are talking about. Awesome yes, but not 24 g awesome. And most t6 rare poisons on my server that are DD are atleast 14 g. I'm not saying that anybody should be nerfed but instead the wizzy's spells should be increased. Over all the ranger has more money to spend over a long period of time as opposed to the wizzy's massive starting cost. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Icehunter612 on <span class="date_text">11-28-2005</span> <span class="time_text">02:02 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote> Yes I completely agree - good poison makes a world of difference - because I already had my alchie when I started levelling my assassin, I never tried the vendor stuff but for sure there is a big difference between the legendary and the handcrafted poisons.  My assassin is a Torrent of Ages addict and will soon move over to the heavier stuff, Adeste Disruption DD poison when she dings 50. I sell them for 9-10g + broker fees and they go faster than I can produce them. On a scout with raid buffs this poison usually accounts for around 170-180 DPS of an assassin or rangers damage. Actually some of the guildie scouts don't use them on raids anymore because they get aggro problems, and they have no problem dishing out enough damage with handcrafted. Maybe the solution to the Wizard DPS problem could be to add extra spell components made by Sages that can add extra damage to our spells similarly to how poison works for scouts.  That would also make a nice little side income for Sages, who basically can sell nothing but spells. </span> <div></div>

[Icehunter612]

Not so much difference between the handcrafted and the legendary as there is between the vender and the handcrafted, OH wait that's right there is no vendor t6 poison. You have to use t5 vendor if you are a cheap ranger like me. <div></div>

[Grimda]

<P>Some ranger threads:</P> <P>Read the first post of this ranger thread, titled 'Scornfeather + Solo'</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=39&message.id=15683&view=by_date_ascending&page=1" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=39&message.id=15683&view=by_date_ascending&page=1</A></P> <DIV>Titled 'Crazing Soloing':</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=39&message.id=15461" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=39&message.id=15461</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[MCG_DaMa]

<P>Well I dont post much on these boards as I dont think they are read by anyone who can actualy help, But I do have to post with my agreement with the OP on this. </P> <P>There are those of you who enjoy your Wizard class and do not see the problem the rest of us are seening. My post is not for those who enjoy your Wizard and see no problem being Low DPS in this game. For those say you can out dps a Ranger no problem I will prove you wrong 99.9% of the time.</P> <P>I do enjoy the Wizard class a lot as most of you do, no matter how little DPS we actualy do we make a contribution in almost any sittuation. </P> <P>BUT <BR>When you hit level 60 and there is a much greater need to raid than just grind XP you will find your wizard lacking in soo many ways. Our DPS vs Mana Is way off compaird to all other classes yes warlocks come close to running low on mana but only on certian types of mobs. Where as a Level 60 wizard I can completley dump my mana (5000 power pool) and still be out DPSed by a Ranger that is a level 54 or a Conjurer Level 51 Or a warlock Level 58!  (for those that dont agree with me please hold your thoughts of:: You dont know how to play your class, Your gear does not equal theirs ECT, This is not the case I can assure you)</P> <P>If any class is played well I applaude the player, and enjoy playing with them. I am one of the hardest players on the Mistmoore server and have grouped with Soo many people. The Wizard Class is simply under powered and our DPS is not what it should be plan and simple. Some of you say that a Phaser does not report all of our spell damage IE Forge of Ro, Frost Shield, Protoflame. I agree a phaser does not report on these and that would add some to our over all DPS But it Can not double our recorded DPS Wereas a Ranger does double my recorded DPS and he still has full or near full Mana. </P> <P>For those of you lvl 54+ Take a group up to the CLefts and Do some XP grinding on the Epics </P> <P>Group setup </P> <P>Tankd Pally 55+ Guardian 55+ Zerker 55+ (Carefull here the Zerker can out dps a wizard) Just one is needed here!</P> <P>Casters Wizard 54 (I prefer you test with a lvl 60 to prove my point) Warlock 54+ Conj 51+ </P> <P>Scout   Just one Ranger level 50+ </P> <P>Cleric  Mystick 54+ Templar 55+ </P> <P>Now setup your Phaser any way you like to report on how much damage is done with what spells and I can assure you if the ranger knows anything about a bow he will be top dps 99% of the time NO Problem, The Conj if played really well may take a few of the high spots and the warlock will almost always come in second. Where is the wizard in this? 4th place if not beatin by a well played Zerker.  Test it if your not convinced!  The wizard can completly dump his mana and not compare on DPS! </P> <P>The Class needs some work/help If we are to be a valued part of raiding at all. Right now if I was a Raid leader of any sort I would replace all of the casters with a ranger (except the healers) and I do not believe there is a mob that cant be beat with this setup. </P> <P>For those that do not aggree please test this yourself!</P> <P>For those of you who do agree lets start putting in Feedback reports every day, Not asking for any class to get nerfed but for the Wizard class to be improved greatly when it comes to our damage per second. </P> <P> </P>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MCG_DaMa wrote:<BR> <P>Well I dont post much on these boards as I dont think they are read by anyone who can actualy help, But I do have to post with my agreement with the OP on this. </P> <P>There are those of you who enjoy your Wizard class and do not see the problem the rest of us are seening. My post is not for those who enjoy your Wizard and see no problem being Low DPS in this game. For those say you can out dps a Ranger no problem I will prove you wrong 99.9% of the time.</P> <P>I do enjoy the Wizard class a lot as most of you do, no matter how little DPS we actualy do we make a contribution in almost any sittuation. </P> <P>BUT <BR>When you hit level 60 and there is a much greater need to raid than just grind XP you will find your wizard lacking in soo many ways. Our DPS vs Mana Is way off compaird to all other classes yes warlocks come close to running low on mana but only on certian types of mobs. Where as a Level 60 wizard I can completley dump my mana (5000 power pool) and still be out DPSed by a Ranger that is a level 54 or a Conjurer Level 51 Or a warlock Level 58!  (for those that dont agree with me please hold your thoughts of:: You dont know how to play your class, Your gear does not equal theirs ECT, This is not the case I can assure you)</P> <P>If any class is played well I applaude the player, and enjoy playing with them. I am one of the hardest players on the Mistmoore server and have grouped with Soo many people. The Wizard Class is simply under powered and our DPS is not what it should be plan and simple. Some of you say that a Phaser does not report all of our spell damage IE Forge of Ro, Frost Shield, Protoflame. I agree a phaser does not report on these and that would add some to our over all DPS But it Can not double our recorded DPS Wereas a Ranger does double my recorded DPS and he still has full or near full Mana. </P> <P>For those of you lvl 54+ Take a group up to the CLefts and Do some XP grinding on the Epics </P> <P>Group setup </P> <P>Tankd Pally 55+ Guardian 55+ Zerker 55+ (Carefull here the Zerker can out dps a wizard) Just one is needed here!</P> <P>Casters Wizard 54 (I prefer you test with a lvl 60 to prove my point) Warlock 54+ Conj 51+ </P> <P>Scout   Just one Ranger level 50+ </P> <P>Cleric  Mystick 54+ Templar 55+ </P> <P>Now setup your Phaser any way you like to report on how much damage is done with what spells and I can assure you if the ranger knows anything about a bow he will be top dps 99% of the time NO Problem, The Conj if played really well may take a few of the high spots and the warlock will almost always come in second. Where is the wizard in this? 4th place if not beatin by a well played Zerker.  Test it if your not convinced!  The wizard can completly dump his mana and not compare on DPS! </P> <P>The Class needs some work/help If we are to be a valued part of raiding at all. Right now if I was a Raid leader of any sort I would replace all of the casters with a ranger (except the healers) and I do not believe there is a mob that cant be beat with this setup. </P> <P>For those that do not aggree please test this yourself!</P> <P>For those of you who do agree lets start putting in Feedback reports every day, Not asking for any class to get nerfed but for the Wizard class to be improved greatly when it comes to our damage per second. </P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>whats your toons name in mm? I play on this server too.</P> <P> </P> <P>your example is skewed because a lvl 54 wizard may get out aoed.  at 55 we get forge of ro.  that spell freakin owns on the epics in the epic room.  My dps is always top gun, unless I have a warlock in group doing those.  I have never been out aoed by other classes in that room.</P> <P>easiest way is to start casting icy wind adp3 as tank pulls, he aoe taunts off the start so you dont get agro, then FOR adp3, then shocking flash adp3, then surge of flames, then inferno (or fiery inferno), then icebound gift, then numbing cold, then ring of ice, and recast icy wind.  *usually mobs are dead before need to recast icy wind, but i've been in some low dps groups b4*</P>

[massem]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR>whats your toons name in mm? I play on this server too. <P>your example is skewed because a lvl 54 wizard may get out aoed.  at 55 we get forge of ro.  that spell freakin owns on the epics in the epic room.  My dps is always top gun, unless I have a warlock in group doing those.  I have never been out aoed by other classes in that room.</P> <P>easiest way is to start casting icy wind adp3 as tank pulls, he aoe taunts off the start so you dont get agro, then FOR adp3, then shocking flash adp3, then surge of flames, then inferno (or fiery inferno), then icebound gift, then numbing cold, then ring of ice, and recast icy wind.  *usually mobs are dead before need to recast icy wind, but i've been in some low dps groups b4*</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The problem is not that Wizards can be out-AOEd - by rangers and under some conditions Warlocks - that's natural since they are supposed to be AOE specialists and we are not. The problem is that both assassins which are supposed to be our peers on single targets, can nearly double our DPS on single (raid)  targets unless they pull aggro and get killed and the fight lasts long enough. It is also slightly absurd that Swashies and Brigands which are supposed to be lower tier DPS can do the same and that rangers are the top DPS of the game, both on single and multiple target encounters. </P> <P>  <BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>

[brow27]

You say assassins can out-dps us?  I haven't grouped with assassins a lot, but the few assassins I've talked to complain long and hard about how their dps SUCKS.  Not just isn't highest, we're talking they are like Tier 3 dps.  Now I'm sure that every 15 minutes or whatever when they can use their Assassinate skill they'll out-dps just about anybody, but I"m talking on a fight-to-fight basis. <div></div>

[Crychtonn]

<P>Nice to see there are Wizards out there that understand group buff and proc's and how they make parser results silly.  Doing any kind of DPS comparison in a group or raid situation is just dumb and will never show what each class is really doing.  The only way to compare one class to another is to parse them solo killing the same mob, even better to do it on a variety of mobs.</P> <P>Anytime you put a scout (ranger, assassin, swashy, brig ect) in a group he will almost automatically have his DPS boosted.  Wizard group buff increases Str and Int - Bamm Str increase melee and CA damage, Int increase poison and proc damage (Int having the biggest impact since most scouts have low Int to start).  Going from 40 Int to 140-160 can add upwards of 100 damage per poison proc.  Can you say 'Thank you Mr Wizard'.  Then there are of course all the proc's that get applied to scouts (I'm sure that ranger in the cleft epic example had plenty on based on the classes listed).  Check your parser and you'd be amazed at how much damage a scout put's out from all those 5, 10, 20% proc chances people put on them.  If you don't want to pull hate sweet talk that Pally to put Amends on you or the Guard for Assuage.  Luckily the Dev's like some of the Wizards here do understand this and factor it into their vision of class balancing.</P> <P> </P> <P>As far as Wizards vs raid mobs you have my sympathy.  I agree there are way to many that are immune or highly resistent to heat and cold.  I'm sure all us scouts that were here from the games beginning understand your plight.  I definitely remember how sucky it was back in the day when so many of the raid mobs were both pierce and slash immune.  Scouts only got invited along to raids for quest updates back then.  As a ranger back then I at least could shoot some crushing arrows but all other scouts were just SOL.</P>

[Benboe]

heyhey, Well, to be honest, I personally find Wizzi DPS lacking as well. Out of curiosity, while browsing forums I thought, lets make an alt - so I made a Necromancer. Equipped him and sent him of ... Now this Necro is lvl 51 (my wizzi is 55) ... and where is the problem? I out DMG my Wizzi. Not on the shorthaul (less then 30 secs fighting) ... but on the longhaul, both in fights that last longer then 30 secs and in a hour, because I simply do not run out of pwr. Never ever. And I been trying hard <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ... As stated before Parsers will not show correct results. and yes, we do rule solo encounters still. But when it comes to solo play, group play and thelike, I do prefer my Necro nowadays. Do not get me wrong I like my Wizzi, and the ro spell is nice ... but: - with casting 3 spells in a group I can do 450 DPS without loosing further pwr ... My scout pet (round 200), my rats (1 min for 150 DPS) plus my Stench pet (100 DPs for 30 secs) .... that is a lot of DPS without loosing pwr .... Shavoran, lvl 55 Wizzard, Runnyeye Oovaan, lvl 51 Necromancer, Runnyeye <div></div>

[Evian1]

<P>I've parsed myself and others many many times, I regularly duo with a same level warlock (we're both 41 right now) my int is up around 200 or so with hand of the tyrant and I have my stun and ball of flames as adept III with freezing wind as my master II. Since the combat changes i've noticed that in any group with a mildly decently equipped scout (lets say a swashbuckler) they outdamage me on almost every encounter, i'd say I was able to outdamage the swashie about 20% of the time..and he always had more power then me at the end of the fights..he was also our tank... </P> <P>I'm failing to see the equality here..how many times does a wizard actually tank in a group on purpose ? Admitedly soloing we rock, I can solo yellow ^^^ with difficulty (assuming root holds for all three nukes and I dont get hit more then twice by the mob) and duo'ing with my warlock friend we can kill very difficult mobs for great expirience..throw in a warding healer and its a very very impressive trio. But in an average group..a swashbuckler..assasin..ranger..they're all much more useful, we have evac..so do they..they can reduce their own aggro..we can once in any given fight..or every few fights rather. They can tank (swashie has taunt..since when were scouts supposed to be sub-par tanks? and btw this swashie was a better tank then most fighters I know and he had rather [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ty equipment for his level) we fold like a 20 year old paper bag. In long fights scouts will surpass us in dps easily since they seem to burn through power less and will always have some form of dps going (melee). Yes we have big nukes, at 41 ball of flames is 700ish to 1380ish (at 37 when I got it I did hit 1.4k..but thats another story -.-) but just let an assasin sneak behind a mob and they have big nukes too..it just so happens they do it with a dagger not a spell.</P> <P> </P> <P>Either certain scouts are overpowered (bards not being included in this) or wizards are underpowered. I've even noticed soem fighters getting close to my dps, at 41 it ranges from anywhere around 80 to 400(aoe) and the scouts are group with are usually consistantly in the 150 range</P>

[Jay]

<P>This is really, really sad. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I'm an adequately-equipped 55 ranger. I'm fairly knowledgeable but I'm no prodigy when it comes to my class. I'm not hardcore; I don't raid that often and I'm not twinked to the nines. </P> <P>Some of you are really trying to find ways in which you suck, and you're manufacturing ways in which you think we're vastly superior to you. I'll try to address the points from the OP below. </P> <P>1. <STRONG>Damage:</STRONG> Yes, my DPS is comparable to yours. That's intended. I understand that you're frustrated if you expect to always outdamage every other class, but SOE did not design the classes that way. </P> <P>2. <STRONG>Mitigation:</STRONG> My AC is not "high" by any stretch of the imagination. I get hit HARD and usually go down like a ton of bricks, even in cobalt chainmail. I might last five seconds longer than you do if a [Removed for Content]-off Heroic mob turns on me and I'm not prepared.</P> <P>3. <STRONG>Tanking:</STRONG> I cannot "tank" in the usual sense of the word. I have no taunts. NONE. I have mediocre mitigation. What do you rely on tanks to do? Hold aggro and endure damage. I can't do either of those things well at all. I can off-tank in an emergency using my defensive stance and a few other short-term buffs, but doing so cuts my DPS down to a fraction and it puts a much greater burden on my healer. </P> <P>4. <STRONG>Snares / Stuns:</STRONG> I have two snares and one stun at level 55. None of them last more than a few seconds on Heroic mobs and most break on damage. I have <STRONG>one</STRONG> half-root, Thorny Trap, which I get at 52. You get Arcane Bindings before level 10. Your high-level root lasts up to a minute. You get spells that root an entire group. Wizards' roots are superior to rangers', believe me.</P> <DIV>5. <STRONG>Poisons:</STRONG> Yes, I use poisons. Do you want them? How about we cut your DPS to about 65% of what it currently is, and then tell you that you have to buy player-crafted spell components for 10-20g apiece to make up the difference and get back to 100% capacity. Sounds great, doesn't it?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>6. <STRONG>Hate reduction:</STRONG> Anti-aggro attacks... you mean hate-reducing skills? Yes, I have two. One is a combat stealth art that includes a hate-reducing component. The other is a straight hate-reducer that I can use in close-range combat. We also have a buff that reduces our hate gain. If you don't have a hate-reducer ability, you should - but it's not the fault of the scout classes that you don't. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>7. <STRONG>Power management:</STRONG> How can you tell me that scouts get better power management? You can powerfeed yourself AND others. If I'm low on mana, I can use my Manastone....that's it. Are you just saying that I use less power than you do overall? How do you know that? And even if it's true, YOU need a boost, rangers don't need a nerf. (But did you honestly expect that as a pure spellcaster you would use less mana than a melee class?)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>8. <STRONG>Utility:</STRONG> Again, how can you tell me that scouts get more utility? You get evac and invis as well. You also get group buffs to STR and INT (around +50 from a tier 6 wizard), and you buff both heat and cold resistance for your whole party. I get one group buff: Pathfinding, a 16% out of combat move speed increase for my party. You can summon pets to aid soloing at higher levels. You get a mez. I'd <EM>love </EM>a mez. My utility is limited to Pathfinding, tracking, and evac. If you really think tracking is making the game that unbalanced, you're welcome to it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ffcc33>Now, let's look at some of the factors that rangers have to deal with that wizards do not:</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. <STRONG>Conditional requirements:</STRONG> All of my CAs that cause significant damage require one or more of the following conditions: stealth, flanking / rear position, and melee or bow range. My DPS is far more high-maintenance than yours. Casting spells doesn't require you to be behind the mob, or be invis'd, or be standing a bit far away but not TOO far away. You also don't suffer as much from fighting in close quarters like dungeons or high walkways over lava, or from variations in tanking and mob position. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. <STRONG>Ammunition:</STRONG> You don't need it, plain and simple. If you have mana, you can cast a spell. I have to have mana and ammunition to use a ranged CA. To be fair, I summon all my arrows myself, but that takes time and it eats up inventory room. And if I ever run out, I am SOL for 70% of my DPS. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. <STRONG>Poisons: </STRONG>These are not "additional" damage, they're necessary for us to reach the DPS that we're intended to do. You don't want to have to buy a player-crafted product to hit that 7000+ Ice Comet, do you?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4. <STRONG>Melee damage:</STRONG> Your damage is elemental and magical. My damage is piercing, slashing, poison, or occasionally heat. When you're up against an Epic mob that's immune to piercing or slashing, does that change your gameplay in the slightest?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5. <STRONG>Soloability:</STRONG> You cite some examples of exceptional ranger soloing, but you neglect to point out the same exceptions in your own class. I watched a 50ish warlock solo the ^^^ Fire Toad on LS beach the other day. That thing stayed rooted for minutes on end while she dotted it to death. I was happy for her, it was a good example of how a well-played and well-equipped sorceror can take out a Heroic named mob. Does that mean warlocks are overpowered and should be nerfed, b/c one player achieved something out of the ordinary?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please understand, I am not out to nerf your class or insult wizards in any way. Rangers are no "better" than wizards or vice-versa; it's apples and oranges. You can do a lot of things I can't, and the same is true in reverse. I'm not going to lie, rangers can finally be very effective at the role for which they were designed. We only had to wait eight months for that to become a reality. So yes, I'm happy with my class, and I'm sorry the OP isn't. I'd encourage you to look for deficiencies in your own class and suggest ways in which the tools that you're given to do your job can be improved, rather than looking for ways to limit the classes around you. Good luck. </DIV><p>Message Edited by Jay42 on <span class=date_text>11-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:48 PM</span>

[OneBadAli]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jay42 wrote:<BR> <P>This is really, really sad. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I'm an adequately-equipped 55 ranger. I'm fairly knowledgeable but I'm no prodigy when it comes to my class. I'm not hardcore; I don't raid that often and I'm not twinked to the nines. </P> <P>Some of you are really trying to find ways in which you suck, and you're manufacturing ways in which you think we're vastly superior to you. I'll try to address the points from the OP below. </P> <P>1. <STRONG>Damage:</STRONG> Yes, my DPS is comparable to yours. That's intended. I understand that you're frustrated if you expect to always outdamage every other class, but SOE did not design the classes that way. </P> <P>2. <STRONG>Mitigation:</STRONG> My AC is not "high" by any stretch of the imagination. I get hit HARD and usually go down like a ton of bricks, even in cobalt chainmail. I might last five seconds longer than you do if a [Removed for Content]-off Heroic mob turns on me and I'm not prepared.</P> <P>3. <STRONG>Tanking:</STRONG> I cannot "tank" in the usual sense of the word. I have no taunts. NONE. I have mediocre mitigation. What do you rely on tanks to do? Hold aggro and endure damage. I can't do either of those things well at all. I can off-tank in an emergency using my defensive stance and a few other short-term buffs, but doing so cuts my DPS down to a fraction and it puts a much greater burden on my healer. </P> <P>4. <STRONG>Snares / Stuns:</STRONG> I have two snares and one stun at level 55. None of them last more than a few seconds on Heroic mobs and most break on damage. I have <STRONG>one</STRONG> half-root, Thorny Trap, which I get at 52. You get Arcane Bindings before level 10. Your high-level root lasts up to a minute. You get spells that root an entire group. Wizards' roots are superior to rangers', believe me.</P> <DIV>5. <STRONG>Poisons:</STRONG> Yes, I use poisons. Do you want them? How about we cut your DPS to about 65% of what it currently is, and then tell you that you have to buy player-crafted spell components for 10-20g apiece to make up the difference and get back to 100% capacity. Sounds great, doesn't it?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>6. <STRONG>Hate reduction:</STRONG> Anti-aggro attacks... you mean hate-reducing skills? Yes, I have two. One is a combat stealth art that includes a hate-reducing component. The other is a straight hate-reducer that I can use in close-range combat. We also have a buff that reduces our hate gain. If you don't have a hate-reducer ability, you should - but it's not the fault of the scout classes that you don't. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>7. <STRONG>Power management:</STRONG> How can you tell me that scouts get better power management? You can powerfeed yourself AND others. If I'm low on mana, I can use my Manastone....that's it. Are you just saying that I use less power than you do overall? How do you know that? And even if it's true, YOU need a boost, rangers don't need a nerf. (But did you honestly expect that as a pure spellcaster you would use less mana than a melee class?)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>8. <STRONG>Utility:</STRONG> Again, how can you tell me that scouts get more utility? You get evac and invis as well. You also get group buffs to STR and INT (around +50 from a tier 6 wizard), and you buff both heat and cold resistance for your whole party. I get one group buff: Pathfinding, a 16% out of combat move speed increase for my party. You can summon pets to aid soloing at higher levels. You get a mez. I'd <EM>love </EM>a mez. My utility is limited to Pathfinding, tracking, and evac. If you really think tracking is making the game that unbalanced, you're welcome to it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ffcc33>Now, let's look at some of the factors that rangers have to deal with that wizards do not:</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. <STRONG>Conditional requirements:</STRONG> All of my CAs that cause significant damage require one or more of the following conditions: stealth, flanking / rear position, and melee or bow range. My DPS is far more high-maintenance than yours. Casting spells doesn't require you to be behind the mob, or be invis'd, or be standing a bit far away but not TOO far away. You also don't suffer as much from fighting in close quarters like dungeons or high walkways over lava, or from variations in tanking and mob position. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000>As a wizard i would stand on my head invised, while juggling if i could meet a conditional requirement that would allow me to do more dps. I would gladly have to deal with fighting this style in dungeons on high walkways, over lava, or from variations of mob position.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. <STRONG>Ammunition:</STRONG> You don't need it, plain and simple. If you have mana, you can cast a spell. I have to have mana and ammunition to use a ranged CA. To be fair, I summon all my arrows myself, but that takes time and it eats up inventory room. And if I ever run out, I am SOL for 70% of my DPS. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000>As a wizard i would seriously pay 4 times what you pay for ammunition without complaining one single bit. If i could summon some form of dps (not arrows but you get the idea) then i would GLADLY deal with the time it takes and the inventory room it uses. If this was a major portion of my dps then i would still NOT have a problem paying 4 times what you do for arrows....</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. <STRONG>Poisons: </STRONG>These are not "additional" damage, they're necessary for us to reach the DPS that we're intended to do. You don't want to have to buy a player-crafted product to hit that 7000+ Ice Comet, do you?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000>As a wizard, again, i would GLADLY pay extra for me to reach the dps that rangers were intended to reach. I would pay for player-crafted products to make my ice comet hit 7000 or all other spells do MORE damage....</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4. <STRONG>Melee damage:</STRONG> Your damage is elemental and magical. My damage is piercing, slashing, poison, or occasionally heat. When you're up against an Epic mob that's immune to piercing or slashing, does that change your gameplay in the slightest?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000>As a wizard 90% of my spells are literally heat only damage, against heat immune mobs im forced to standing around twiddling my thumbs waiting on spell timers to repop. You as a ranger can switch from piercing to slashing and STILL do damage, i cannot pull out other forms of damage because my melee wont hit epics..., If i had to change my gameplay in ANY WAY to allow me to hit the mob or do more dps then i would do it, that could change my gameplay and im 100% ok with that.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5. <STRONG>Soloability:</STRONG> You cite some examples of exceptional ranger soloing, but you neglect to point out the same exceptions in your own class. I watched a 50ish warlock solo the ^^^ Fire Toad on LS beach the other day. That thing stayed rooted for minutes on end while she dotted it to death. I was happy for her, it was a good example of how a well-played and well-equipped sorceror can take out a Heroic named mob. Does that mean warlocks are overpowered and should be nerfed, b/c one player achieved something out of the ordinary?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0000>Wizards/Rangers/Warlocks/Necro's/Conjuror's are ALL good at soloing, thats not the point really....But you dont get 1 shotted like a wizard/warlock would either.... You see you can out dps us, solo as good as us, and you get to wear medium armor, where we wear very light, you have mitigation we literally have none.</FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please understand, I am not out to nerf your class or insult wizards in any way. <FONT color=#ff6600>Rangers are no "better" than wizards or vice-versa; it's apples and oranges</FONT>. You can do a lot of things I can't, and the same is true in reverse. I'm not going to lie, rangers can finally be very effective at the role for which they were designed. We only had to wait eight months for that to become a reality. So yes, I'm happy with my class, and I'm sorry the OP isn't. I'd encourage you to look for deficiencies in your own class and suggest ways in which the tools that you're given to do your job can be improved, rather than looking for ways to limit the classes around you. Good luck. </DIV> <P><FONT color=#cc0000>As we are trying to point out, RANGERS ARE BETTER THEN WIZARDS and its NOT APPLES TO ORANGES....</FONT><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Crychtonn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Grimdayl wrote:<BR> <P>Some ranger threads:</P> <P>Read the first post of this ranger thread, titled 'Scornfeather + Solo'</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=39&message.id=15683&view=by_date_ascending&page=1" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=39&message.id=15683&view=by_date_ascending&page=1</A></P> <DIV>Titled 'Crazing Soloing':</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=39&message.id=15461" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=39&message.id=15461</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Don't forget to read the part about <FONT color=#ff0000>Wizard's</FONT> solo'ing the named epic x2 monks in PoF or the Pally solo'ing epic's in SS.  And lets not get into how <FONT color=#ff0000>Wizard's</FONT> can solo ^^^ mobs just as easy as a ranger.  Hipocracy it's what makes the world go round.</P> <P>What can I say a troll post deserves a troll response :smileytongue:</P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS - I still think raid mobs need to be fixed to not be so unWizard friendly.  That or change a few heat based spells to cold so it's more a 50/50 split between heat and cold.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Evian1]

<DIV>Seems like I just [Removed for Content] off a bunch of rangers. I'm more or less comparing a wizard to a swashbuckler, not so much a ranger.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But still lets look at it..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rangers have double if not more a wizard's health.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ranges have tripple if not more mitigation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rangers have substantially higher Avoidance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rangers don't have to worry about chasing an int cap to keep their damage at a respectable place as they level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rangers don't have to worry about getting massive unrecoverable aggro from one spell (I still don't understand how one nuke can keep a tank from taunting off me in the time it takes me to die..when throughout a fight I can nuke many times and the tank does the same taunts and never get aggro..)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rangers and Wizards can both solo very well. Rangers have their bows and arrows, with poisons that will activate with your bow from range + snare.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It was mentioned that wizards get evac and invis..this is still much later then rangers get sneak and evac, our invis is also limited with the exception that we are able to cast it on others for a short duration whereas rangers cannot stealth others.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for power regen..my god man have you ever seen our power converters ? until 41 they are useless, it barely budges your power at all and you have so little health..at 41 I have about 1.6k health, 2.6k power, my Vital flow app IV is 300 something health to 119 mana, with a significant recast, that means if I want to sap my life down as low as possible I can 1.5k health for 500 or so mana, thats just over two nukes..and it also insures that you're dead in one hit. We have another power regen spell..it used to be nice, a stun regen like they had in eq1..they've changed it..now its a stun/health dot, to mana regen..and not worth upgrading for how useless it is. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the dps was close..I wouldn't mind..and to be honest it's been a while since I grouped with a ranger. <STRONG>However with a swashbuckler..i'm losing by a <U>3rd </U>almost every time..that's pretty ridiculous.</STRONG> Yes I realize that dps has variables, the person and how well they play their class, how upgraded they are, what equipment they have, how long the fight lasts and so on. Every class has its downsides and every class is going to get its complaints, but for sacrificing any ability to take a hit..shouldn't we bit slightly better in the damage department then a ranger, swashbuckler, brigand or assassin</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't think rangers should be nerfed, not at all. I think they should look into this stupid int thing that is making every int class weaker the higher they level if they dont chase the int cap. I think they should make wizards more sustainable in long term fights either by making our power coverter more efficient, giving us spells that will spread out our damage more then burn it all up for massive power. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Crychtonn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Evian1 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Seems like I just [Removed for Content] off a bunch of rangers. I'm more or less comparing a wizard to a swashbuckler, not so much a ranger.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Nay doubt you upset anyone just you're expressing your opinion.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But still lets look at it..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rangers have double if not more a wizard's health.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>I'll have to check this on my conj vs ranger but I really doubt it is double.  Think it's more like 30-40% more HP.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ranges have tripple if not more mitigation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Probably close to right but I'll check this also.  Won't be a great comparison since my conj has pretty crap armor.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rangers have substantially higher Avoidance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>This again I'll have to check but it should be the opposite.  Cloth armor is suppose to give the highest avoidance and then go down.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rangers don't have to worry about chasing an int cap to keep their damage at a respectable place as they level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>ok this one I got a chuckle from.  Be happy all you have to do is chase the cap on Int.  Ranger's have to chase it on Str (ranger equivalent of mage Int), Agi (power pool), Int (poison and proc's) and Sta (to have those extra HP to survive the AE we get hit with and you don't).  Ranger's also have no self Str buff and ask any scout out there Ranger or other Str is our most important stat.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rangers don't have to worry about getting massive unrecoverable aggro from one spell (I still don't understand how one nuke can keep a tank from taunting off me in the time it takes me to die..when throughout a fight I can nuke many times and the tank does the same taunts and never get aggro..)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Can't comment since my conj doesn't have those big nukes.  Aggro does act funny sometimes though.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rangers and Wizards can both solo very well. Rangers have their bows and arrows, with poisons that will activate with your bow from range + snare.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>If you'd picked on the stun poison you'd have a better arguement but even though it is great your roots are superior for solo'ing.  Our snares pretty much suck currently.  They used to be good but got nerf'd with all the other roots and snares.  They pretty much insta break and I barely consider them a fighting tactic anymore.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It was mentioned that wizards get evac and invis..this is still much later then rangers get sneak and evac, our invis is also limited with the exception that we are able to cast it on others for a short duration whereas rangers cannot stealth others.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>As you said you can invis other's Ranger's can't.  Before the expansion and the see invis Flamestalkers in SE I leapfrog invis'd a guildy all the way down to Naggy.  Invised him and he went to a safe spot then Invised myself to catch up.  Something my ranger obviously never could do.  Was also handy skipping the courtyard mobs in Managerie.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for power regen..my god man have you ever seen our power converters ? until 41 they are useless, it barely budges your power at all and you have so little health..at 41 I have about 1.6k health, 2.6k power, my Vital flow app IV is 300 something health to 119 mana, with a significant recast, that means if I want to sap my life down as low as possible I can 1.5k health for 500 or so mana, thats just over two nukes..and it also insures that you're dead in one hit. We have another power regen spell..it used to be nice, a stun regen like they had in eq1..they've changed it..now its a stun/health dot, to mana regen..and not worth upgrading for how useless it is. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Again don't have enough first hand knowledge to make a comment.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the dps was close..I wouldn't mind..and to be honest it's been a while since I grouped with a ranger. <STRONG>However with a swashbuckler..i'm losing by a <U>3rd </U>almost every time..that's pretty ridiculous.</STRONG> Yes I realize that dps has variables, the person and how well they play their class, how upgraded they are, what equipment they have, how long the fight lasts and so on. Every class has its downsides and every class is going to get its complaints, but for sacrificing any ability to take a hit..shouldn't we bit slightly better in the damage department then a ranger, swashbuckler, brigand or assassin</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Don't feel bad a well equipted and played Swashy will out DPS us Ranger's also :smileytongue:  Then again so can a Necro and Conj half the time.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't think rangers should be nerfed, not at all. I think they should look into this stupid int thing that is making every int class weaker the higher they level if they dont chase the int cap. I think they should make wizards more sustainable in long term fights either by making our power coverter more efficient, giving us spells that will spread out our damage more then burn it all up for massive power. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Robo13]

<P>As a ranger I will out DPS a mage because of my group I play in. It is all about buffs other classes give you period. If I didn't have those buffs I am sure my dps would be extremly bad compared to a wizzards pure casting and damage rating on your spells. Not to mention your short recast times. </P> <P>If I am runnning in group with a Zerker, Pally, Wizzy, Dirge, Inquis I'll hand it big time to a wizzard when it comes to DPS. Why you ask. I'll tell you why. BUFFS....   I get an INT ( increases my poison and heat damage ) and STR ( All of my melee amage goes up ) buff from a Wizzy.  I get a HATE reducer from a Pally if he puts it on me. I get another STR buff from a Zerker and another STR and AGI buff from the Dirge. The inquis also can put a hate reducer on me. It comes down to this who cares about who does what DPS if the mob is dying and dying fast and everyone lives. It is about knowing how to play your character and knowing which class makes your class better.  Use your brain and come up with group combo's that work best for you. Buy INT potions if you need one and others to help you.</P> <P>I can remember before Combat Revamp when  Rangers could not get a group what so ever after LVL 40 because a Wizzy's DPS was better and had evac.  Oh, speaking about  haveing mobs that are resistent to HEAT and COLD. Well then FEED your other Group members POWER. Like maybe the HEALER so they can keep chain healing if they have too or the TANK so they can keep hitting TAUNT.  It is so easy to complain and give no solution on these forums which makes these posts so unproductive.  State your problem and then several solutions and be constructive about it and not destructive and have Class envy.  Every class has PRO's  and CON's.  One class might be good at xyz and anothre may not.  BEING the Sole DPS KING is not what this game is about. This game is about TEAM work and not Class Envy. The best way to have Class Balancing is to be in a well thought out and balanced group where everyone has a certain role and compliment each other on strengths and weakness.</P> <DIV>Anyhow scouts are your friends. Don't forget to tell your scout to put up a cold/heat debuff poison up to help your damage. There is a debuff poison for all situations. Well I think I am done with my rant. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Happy adventuring,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Firehead</DIV> <DIV>60 Ranger/60 Weaponsmith</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[MCG_DaMa]

<P>Again I am not asking to Nerf any class, I am simply stating the reality that Right now as the game stands Wizards in a group do not fit the roll we are meant to play as a Mass DPS class. </P> <P>All this talk about Who can solo what and Only True DPS test can be performed solo against the same Mob. No Not the case at all!!  The point here is this For those of you that are lvl 40-59 you may love to solo all day long and think nothing of how much dps your are realy doning as long as you can solo some heroic mobs and gain XP, Ranger, WIzard Warlock, Necro Great have at it enjoy play well have fun!!  That is not what we are talking about!  We are talking about the simple fact we As a caster class meant and created with Mass Damage in mind are simply NOT doing it NOT able to do it in a large group, Raid group, Epic groups! What do you do when you hit level 60?  You Raid to attain better gear or go named hunting in a full group of frinds ECT. You dont Solo at 60 whats the point sure maybe to finish some quests or whatever but that not going to get you all legendary gear.  you Raid And what use are you in a raid if your out of mana and the fight is half over with?   NONE your finished you can mana regen a little and try to cast a nuke now and again but your not going to MELE a Raid mob 2 aoes and your dead so it all boils down to this <BR>Wizards are a Mass DPS class with Light armor (Reguardless of any other type of class)  Wizards are meant to deal mass damage and we dont! I dont mind sharing the top DPS spots with other casters although I am competitive and strive to be the best, I can take second place now and then no problem but Not 4th or 5th place in a 6 man group Let alone the placement in a raid. </P> <P>For those of you that agree Please take the time every day once a day and fill out a feedback report explaining the issue we have with the lack of Mass DPS for the wizard class. I know that eventualy They will fix it if enough of us explain the situation. For those wizards that think their DPS is awsome Great More power to you have fun. Im sure someday you will find it appauling that your damage is not needed for groups or Raids when you finish Grinding XP and your spot is taken by other classes because they can take twice the damage you can and do over  tiwce the damage to the mobs.</P>

[xandez]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>Grimdayl wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div> </div> <div>Notice wizards and scout classes have become interchangeable for dps group slots? It's no wonder. Group with a ranger, rogue, brigand, swashy in your 50s and parse the results. The scout is neck and neck with wizard and usually top-DPS if you can't get IC off.</div> <div>Wizards die very easily, but we hit hard. We gave up physical mitigation to earn the high-dps status. Since scout practically has our dps and can stand-in as tanks, where's the equity here? </div> <div> </div> <div>I grouped with a 59 scout that tanked roost (including the named) for us. Last night our ranger got bored and ran out and soloed a white con ^^^ giant. <font color="#ff9900">Nice... What was the ranger's DPS when he tanked? I assume he used his defensive stance...That seriously lowers our DPS and also it doesnt boost his mitigation, only avoidance and for me i get to 48% with defensive stance and my mitigation stays in 28% (yes, i have NO fabled, only 3 cobalt pieces rest is treasured... and only 1 light armour too.)</font><font color="#ff9900"> </font><font color="#ff9900"> </font><font color="#ff9900">Of course he might have equipped a shield which would further increase his avoidance + gotten mitigation buffs from other group members... still, we dont have any taunts and such, but the poisons do seem to generate a lot of aggro and the DPS can be decent even in defensive stance so... it could be possibly to tank some in groups, but i would'nt do it because thats not my role.</font> </div> <div> </div> <div> Comparing wizard and scout:</div> <div> - dps is very close (wizards on top if we get all our spells off) <font color="#ff9900">So, whats the problem here? We should be TOP DPS makers, thats ALL we bring to the group... no group buffs, no utility besides evac which is not used that often</font> </div> <div> - scout can tank <font color="#ff9900"> Occasionally, but not effectively imo... sure a full fabled / legendary ranger with appropriate support can _tank_ some, but... we rely on our DPS and to the fact that we can hold off mobs (-hate CA:s + ranged CA:s) so that they are killed before they reach us (atleast solo mobs)</font> </div> <div> - scout has multiple snares, stuns and slows that appear as effective as wiz root spells <font color="#ff9900">Err...</font><font color="#ff9900"> </font><font color="#ff9900">We have 1 snare, 1 ranged CA that snares, 1 root which really cant be used in combat (to start a combat yes, but its not feasible to use it in the midst of combat) we have 1 stun which DOES NOT stun heroics.. Yes, it only mezzes em and as soon as we make dmg to the _stunned_ heroic mob it breaks the stun. So, compared to your roots... you definitely have the advantage here, hands down.</font> </div> <div> - scout has poisons (insanely powerful ones), and fewer resists <font color="#ff9900"> Yes, we can use poisons, which we have to pay to use and which go away when we die (atleast atm) 1400 procs / pristine vial which costs 10g and lasts not so long... Actually 50% of our DPS comes from poisons... so we pay, we make DPS, simple, and im fine with that.</font><font color="#ff9900"> </font> </div> <div> <div> - scout has anti-aggro attacks <font color="#ff9900">We have 1 CA which is also kinda hazardous... If we fire it, next person to do MELEE dmg to the mob in 10s time is getting like 60% more hate. Fortunately our bow skills are also considered MELEE dmg and so are our offensive stance proc. So, you fire that skill and your off stance procs --> BOOM 60% more hate to YOU!</font><font color="#ff9900"> </font><font color="#ff9900"> </font><font color="#ff9900">We have the evasion line also, but its not an attack. It ONLY reduces hate. Also the other line which stealthes us reduces hate BUT it doesnt do any dmg. So, its not an attack.</font> </div></div> <div> - scout has better power mgmt and can fallback on mellee for long-haul fights <font color="#ff9900">Well, this might be true but... Have you been in a fight lately that has drained your power besides in a raid maybe? Or due to the mobs special power drain?</font> </div> <div> - has same utilities like invis and evac <font color="#ff9900">Well, we have sneak and quite frankly we should have since we ARE predators. I could give up my evac, but i kinda understand why we have it. We are SCOUTS and maybe we were ment to take ppl off if the danger is imminent? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>Thoughts? </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> <div> </div></div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <font color="#ff9900">Im a ranger of course, which is obvious if you have read my post. The thing i cannot see here is that why are you complaing that we are overpowered against wizards because we are not! You do equal DPS (you confessed it yourself in the 1st lines) + you have UTILITY to bring to your group (not JUST DPS). </font><font color="#ff9900"> </font><font color="#ff9900"> </font><font color="#ff9900">You have MUCH BETTER roots and stuns than us (oh yes, you do). So its ok here too... </font><font color="#ff9900"> </font><font color="#ff9900">So, you wanna have poisons which proc from your spells or whats teh point here? Have you ever played a ranger? If not... please make one and test it out. Compare it against wizard and then come and post your sincere opinions. I play ranger since i like it, i have played it since the release and quite frankly, you guys have ALWAYS been in the top DPS tier, you are there now too. So why on earth do you complain if theres someone else theres besides you? If theres something WRONG with your class, please just say it. Dont whine NERF to other classes just because you think they shouldnt deserve the right to make as much DPS as you do. </font><hr></blockquote> <font color="#ff9900">++Xan</font><p>Message Edited by xandez on <span class=date_text>12-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:00 PM</span>

[massem]

<div></div><span><blockquote>brow27 wrote:You say assassins can out-dps us?  I haven't grouped with assassins a lot, but the few assassins I've talked to complain long and hard about how their dps SUCKS.  Not just isn't highest, we're talking they are like Tier 3 dps.  Now I'm sure that every 15 minutes or whatever when they can use their Assassinate skill they'll out-dps just about anybody, but I"m talking on a fight-to-fight basis. <div></div><hr></blockquote></span>With my assassin I out DPS wizards and warlocks of the same level on single-target encounters even in exp-groups, however my assassin may not be the typical assassin since I have a basically free supply of legendary poisons (made by my own alchie) which can add ridicolus amount of damage. If I were using handcrafted or vendor poisons probably the numbers would turn out differently. Assassins complaining about their DPS are mostly comparing themselves to rangers, brigands and swashies which are even more overpowered compared to wizards. I am saying that Assassins, Rangers, Brigands and Swashies usually mop the floor with us when it comes to <b><i>raids</i></b> . The reason is manly that scouts do not use a lot of power, and if they run out they still have good damage from their autoattack . Also, scouts benefits much more from raid buffs than we do.  The result is that a good wizard  can do  around  50-75% of the DPS of scout on a boss raid encounter.  But its true what you say,  occasionaly, on  multi mob encounters we can do good raid DPS however these are seldom the most important fight in a raid, and those mobs can just as well be AE mezzed and picked out one by one. <p>Message Edited by masseman on <span class=date_text>12-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:44 AM</span>

[TwistedFaith]

<DIV>I cannot for the life of me believe Wizards are complaining about their DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My guild leader is a Wizzy (Llv 60) and if I told you all the mobs he has taken down on his own you would never believe me. Why is that possible if Wizzys suck so much, the guy knows how to play his class. There's a few other wizzys in the guild and he is forever giving them tips and advice and they are all like 'wow, I never thought of that!'. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think what a few people are seeing is a lot of old school rangers who stuck with their class and know exactly how to squeeze every ounce DPS out of their class. Rangers were pretty gimped before the combat changes but a few of us stuck with it and now we are where we should be, tier 1 dps. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A quick word on the you have better armor than me therefore we should do more dmg than you business. Basically if a heroic mob hits me and it's not green then i'm screwed. Even with defensive stance it's pointless going toe to toe with a heroic mob, i'll die within a few hits max. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A lot of ranger DPS comes from posion, check out this shopping list.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Posion (7G per vial, 7 charges, drops when u die and lasts around 2hrs)</DIV> <DIV>2. Posion Debuff (7G per vial, 7 charges, drops when u die and lasts around 1hr)</DIV> <DIV>3. Stun (7G per vial, 7 charges, lasts around 3/4 mobs, also drops when u die)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So thats 21g. I only use a stun/snare potion if I am trying to take down a heroic, it's just impossible to afford it in regular play.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also a word on solo'ing heroics, this is VERY situational. Believe me a ranger cannot simply see a heroic and decide to solo it. We need a lot of room, no aggro and some serious luck with procs/poisons. You wouldnt believe the number of times I have died solo'ing heroics only to find some non aggro mob ran into my trap, or my snare got resisted and the mob came straight for me. Chainmail armor dont count for nothing when a heroic starts beating on you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've grouped with wizzys and honestly it can be kinda humbling, I get a few shots off do some good damage, set myself for a big hit and bam the mobs health drops from 30% to 5% in one hit. Thats a wizzys power!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's very disheartening to hear people calling for a nerf to rangers, I dont feel overpowered, I do feel wanted and useful in a group finally and that rocks. On raids, I am there for DPS, whilst my wizzys friends are there to do a mix between mana feed dps and some buffs (heat buffs?).</DIV><p>Message Edited by valleyboy1 on <span class=date_text>12-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:57 AM</span>

[Krypt0 Zephon]

I can't lie, I haven't raided much tier6 stuff, but when I was raiding tier5 consistently wizzards and warlocks weren't ment for dps.  They were just a battery in my guild.  Extremely important for them to be constantly feeding the healers and MT.  There are exceptions obviously, things like the trembler instance.  Very nice dps killing the elemental mobs.  Point is, my raid experiance in EQ2 you people are not ment to do massive damage.  I'm not trying to be mean or anything like that, having a wizzard or warlock made a huge difference in our raids, a very key class.Also, if you remember before the combat changes, plans were to make wizards/warlocks and rangers/assassins in the same tier, the tops tier.  Highest dps in the game.  Necros/Conj and Swashys/Brigands were a step below us.  Unfortunatly, I consistently see them out damaging me in most pickup groups, absolutly ridiculous damage from necros and conjurors.  Swash and brigand have nothing on a good ranger though. <span>:smileywink:</span>All these benefits that we get, being able to buy poisons to increase dps, and get arrows, and positional attacks, ect.  This is a price we pay to be a scout and I pay to be a ranger.  If that is what you want to do in this game, GO MAKE A SCOUT.  You have certain advantages that you obviously see as a disadvantage.  Its a price you pay for the advantages over us.  Honestly, if your unhappy with your class, go make an alt, play a different game, whatever.  Otherwise, be happy with the class.  I personaly like wizzards, I love having them in groups, and would gladly take one any day of the week.Being unhappy that a scout, ranger in my case, can accualy do damage now....GOOD.  I have been waiting since the game came out to do some [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing dps.  I hit tier5 before combat changes and cried when a guardian out dpsed me.  You want to know embarrising?  I could out dps all healers with basic equipment pre combat changes, and that was it.  Not that I would never out parce a tank, just that the only thing that would be consistent everytime I grouped is I would out dps the healer.Please, love your class for what it is, don't be mad because another class got bumped into your tier, you don't own it.p.s.  I spent a few plat and upgraded, no more being out damaged by guardiansBrought to you by a:58 Ranger / 57 Alch<div></div>

[massem]

<span><blockquote><div> </div><span><div>I cannot for the life of me believe Wizards are complaining about their DPS. <i>Check a damage log from a raid and you will understand why - wizzies are being seriously outdamage by rangers, brigands, assassins and swashies. </i> </div></span><div> </div> <div>It's very disheartening to hear people calling for a nerf to rangers, I dont feel overpowered, I do feel wanted and useful in a group finally and that rocks. On raids, I am there for DPS, whilst my wizzys friends are there to do a mix between mana feed dps and some buffs (heat buffs?).</div><p><i>Hehe - so Wizards are not supposed to be DPS on raids ? Get real -- I have a Master on my Manafeed and I can feed for 138 power every 30 seconds or so. A big heal for a priest takes around 400 so our manafeeds are pretty much useless after the revamp. Most people in this thread are not calling for a Ranger nerf, but a Wizard fix. If Rangers are where there should be DPS-wise, wizards should be right up there with you - right now we are lucky to do half the damage you guys do on a raid.  Rangers can debuff every resistanc, slow stifle and stun using posions so don't com and say that you lack utility. it would be much easier to boost Wizards and Warlocks and leave the scout classes intact, an I hope that is what will happen. </i> </p> <p> </p> </blockquote></span>

[TwistedFaith]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> masseman wrote:<BR><BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR></DIV><SPAN> <DIV>I cannot for the life of me believe Wizards are complaining about their DPS.<BR><BR><I>Check a damage log from a raid and you will understand why - wizzies are being seriously outdamage by rangers, brigands, assassins and swashies. </I></DIV><EM></EM></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>DPS is situational, I gurantee in a certain circumstances Wizzys will out DPS warlocks/rangers/assasins etc. Tier 1 DPS does not mean 'I am a wizzy and therefore whatever the situation I should be equal to or above all other tier 1 dps classes'</FONT><BR></DIV></SPAN> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's very disheartening to hear people calling for a nerf to rangers, I dont feel overpowered, I do feel wanted and useful in a group finally and that rocks. On raids, I am there for DPS, whilst my wizzys friends are there to do a mix between mana feed dps and some buffs (heat buffs?).</DIV> <P><I>Hehe - so Wizards are not supposed to be DPS on raids ? Get real -- I have a Master on my Manafeed and I can feed for 138 power every 30 seconds or so. A big heal for a priest takes around 400 so our manafeeds are pretty much useless after the revamp. Most people in this thread are not calling for a Ranger nerf, but a Wizard fix. If Rangers are where there should be DPS-wise, wizards should be right up there with you - right now we are lucky to do half the damage you guys do on a raid.  Rangers can debuff every resistanc, slow stifle and stun using posions so don't com and say that you lack utility. it would be much easier to boost Wizards and Warlocks and leave the scout classes intact, an I hope that is what will happen. </I><BR></P> <P><BR><FONT color=#66cc00>Wizzys bring more than DPS to a raid, thats a fact, i'm forever in raids when I hear the call for 'wizzys feed the healers', just because you may not be 'in the lead' for dps on a raid doesnt mean your class is lacking. Like I said DPS is situational. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66cc00>Please dont start telling me what rangers can and cannot do. Stifle and slow potions dont work on raid mobs, check the latest patches. We CANNOT debuff every resistance, if you want to do that role a brigand<EM>.</EM></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66cc00>Seems that you feel that because you are not at the top of a DPS chart in a raid then your class is broken, sorry but I disagree. It's like me complaining because I saw a Wizzy solo something 'INSANE' and because I am in the same DPS tier I should be able to do the same, thats not the case. I've seen warlocks do some pretty crazy DPS in certain circumstances, and I have also seen them do medium DPS in others.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#66cc00></FONT> </P></BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[massem]

<span><span><span><div><font color="#66ff00">DPS is situational, I gurantee in a certain circumstances Wizzys will out DPS warlocks/rangers/assasins etc. Tier 1 DPS does not mean 'I am a wizzy and therefore whatever the situation I should be equal to or above all other tier 1 dps classes'</font></div></span><div> </div><span>Since you appear to know - could you please inform me under which conditions a Wizard could  top the DPS statistics - it sure isn't AOE encounters which are typically topped by Rangers (funnily Warlocks do not seem to have much advantage here over Wizards anymore with the new nice ancient scroll spells we have, since their AOE spells) or single targets which are typically topped by brigands, rangers or assassins. Right now there is no situations where a Wizards are top DPS. We should be higher than rangers on single-targets and the same as Assassins. Thus Wizards need a boost.</span><font color="#66cc00">Wizzys bring more than DPS to a raid, thats a fact, i'm forever in raids when I hear the call for 'wizzys feed the healers', just because you may not be 'in the lead' for dps on a raid doesnt mean your class is lacking. Like I said DPS is situational.</font><span><span><span>I have already explained why manafeeds are nearly useless since revamp.</span></span></span><p><font color="#66cc00">Please dont start telling me what rangers can and cannot do. Stifle and slow potions dont work on raid mobs, check the latest patches. We CANNOT debuff every resistance, if you want to do that role a brigand<em>.</em></font></p><p><span><span><span><span><span>Since I play an assassin I know what poison can do - but you are right since yesterday  the stun poison no longer works on epic raid mobs <span>:smileyhappy:</span> . I havent tested but it seems that all the debuff poisions will still work though, and you can debuff any resistance using the correct poison.</span></span></span></span></span><font color="#66cc00">Seems that you feel that because you are not at the top of a DPS chart in a raid then your class is broken, sorry but I disagree. It's like me complaining because I saw a Wizzy solo something 'INSANE' and because I am in the same DPS tier I should be able to do the same, thats not the case. I've seen warlocks do some pretty crazy DPS in certain circumstances, and I have also seen them do medium DPS in others.</font></p>Like you said above - DPS is situational and there should be some situiation on a raid where a wizard could top the DPS statistics. Right now there isn't, and particuallary on what is supposed to be our main speciality, that is, single target encounters we are are utterly gimped.</span></span><div></div>

[TwistedFaith]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> masseman wrote:<BR><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>DPS is situational, I gurantee in a certain circumstances Wizzys will out DPS warlocks/rangers/assasins etc. Tier 1 DPS does not mean 'I am a wizzy and therefore whatever the situation I should be equal to or above all other tier 1 dps classes'</FONT><BR></DIV></SPAN> <DIV> </DIV> <P><SPAN>Since you appear to know - could you please inform me under which conditions a Wizard could  top the DPS statistics - it sure isn't AOE encounters which are typically topped by Rangers (funnily Warlocks do not seem to have much advantage here over Wizards anymore with the new nice ancient scroll spells we have, since their AOE spells) or single targets which are typically topped by brigands, rangers or assassins. Right now there is no situations where a Wizards are top DPS. We should be higher than rangers on single-targets and the same as Assassins. Thus Wizards need a boost.</SPAN></P><SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00>Wizzys rock on single targets, damm how much does Ice Comet hit for 4-6k, the ranger equivilant does 4.5 - 7k and is on a fifteen minute timer. I group with high level wizzys often and on single targets heroics u guys cannot be beaten. How about some other wizzys commenting on this, because all my experience with wizzys have been that on single targets you guys are awesome.</FONT><BR><BR></SPAN><FONT color=#66cc00>Wizzys bring more than DPS to a raid, thats a fact, i'm forever in raids when I hear the call for 'wizzys feed the healers', just because you may not be 'in the lead' for dps on a raid doesnt mean your class is lacking. Like I said DPS is situational.<BR></FONT><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN><BR>I have already explained why manafeeds are nearly useless since revamp.<BR></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><BR><FONT color=#ffcc00>manafeeds are not useless, neither are the buffs you bring. Just because all you seem to want to do is HUGE DPS doesnt mean the rest of the wizzy utility is worthless.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66cc00>Please dont start telling me what rangers can and cannot do. Stifle and slow potions dont work on raid mobs, check the latest patches. We CANNOT debuff every resistance, if you want to do that role a brigand<EM>.</EM></FONT></P> <P><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN>Since I play an assassin I know what poison can do - but you are right since yesterday  the stun poison no longer works on epic raid mobs <SPAN>:smileyhappy:</SPAN> . I havent tested but it seems that all the debuff poisions will still work though, and you can debuff any resistance using the correct poison.</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></P><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00>Again your commenting on this stuff like rangers/assasins have a huge unlimited supply of tier 6 standard and rare crafted potions/posions. In that case cant all classes buff str/agi/sta/wis/int and also add resistence for all types of dmg. Having the ability to buy potions and posions isnt some uber 'class feature'. </FONT><BR></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><BR><FONT color=#66cc00>Seems that you feel that because you are not at the top of a DPS chart in a raid then your class is broken, sorry but I disagree. It's like me complaining because I saw a Wizzy solo something 'INSANE' and because I am in the same DPS tier I should be able to do the same, thats not the case. I've seen warlocks do some pretty crazy DPS in certain circumstances, and I have also seen them do medium DPS in others.</FONT></P>Like you said above - DPS is situational and there should be some situiation on a raid where a wizard could top the DPS statistics. Right now there isn't, and particuallary on what is supposed to be our main speciality, that is, single target encounters we are are utterly gimped.</SPAN></SPAN> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>yes yes wizzys are gimped on single target encouters, do u really want me to start listing the mobs I have seen and know for a fact that my lvl 60 guild leader has brought down with his 'utterly gimped' wizzy.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[BlackAdderDr]

On the wizzy resistance problem... Instead of hating that Ranger in your group.. ask him to use his melee snare on the next triple up mob(adept 1 debuffs about 1220 heat, called tanglethorn)  This includes epics ppl...  now my 45 wizzy with 300 int and BoF master 1 has his rangers debuff the lvl 52 mobs she tries to hit, and guess what at 45 I can bop lvl 52 mobs with that ranger help,  whats better is I can do 2200+ (top so far)  with that and piercing icicles adIII on said 52 mob.  So dont hate the ranger.. learn how the ranger can help you.  My wizzy brings alot to a group thru buffs, defence and wep procs... I use them smartly and I dont mind not being top DPS all the time.   I have a 60 Ranger that I played a long time and a 45 wizzy, both equipped very well.  And at lvl 45 my wizard solod the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] fire toad so there, a well played wizzy is good fun in groups and solo, I could never solo the fire toad with my ranger til lvl 49 or so.  I know my 60 ranger with adIII bow arts debuff, stun and legen poison demolishes mobs, and will out DPS all but the most aggressive wizzy.  I dont think that is changing but to know the two classes and to be helped by ranger/wizzy makes the groups do even more.

[massem]

<span><blockquote><hr>valleyboy1 wrote: <blockquote> <hr> masseman wrote:<span><span><span></span></span></span></blockquote><blockquote><span><span><span><p><font color="#ffcc00">k on single targets, damm how much does Ice Comet hit for 4-6k, the ranger equivilant does 4.5 - 7k and is on a fifteen minute timer. I group with high level wizzys often and on single targets heroics u guys cannot be beaten. How about some other wizzys commenting on this, because all my experience with wizzys have been that on single targets you guys are awesome.</font></p> <p>Ice comet does on avarage 5000 damage every 50 seconds or so giving around 100 DPS for a large power cost. Legendary T6 poison alone Ranger or assassin power does 120-180 DPS in the parses I have made, without any power cost and not even counting your autoattack damage which would do around the same. If you don't have better arguments than that its better to keep quiet.</p> </span><font color="#66cc00"></font><font color="#ffcc00">manafeeds are not useless, neither are the buffs you bring. Just because all you seem to want to do is HUGE DPS doesnt mean the rest of the wizzy utility is worthless.</font></span></span> Thats right - my heat/cold buffs are sometimes useful.<span><span><span><span> </span></span></span></span> <span><span><p></p></span></span></blockquote><blockquote><span><span><span><span><span><span><span><p><font color="#ffcc00">Again your commenting on this stuff like rangers/assasins have a huge unlimited supply of tier 6 standard and rare crafted potions/posions. In that case cant all classes buff str/agi/sta/wis/int and also add resistence for all types of dmg. Having the ability to buy potions and posions isnt some uber 'class feature'. </font></p></span></span></span></span></span>What classes can use poison ? Wizards ? Warlocks ? Templar ? No not really ... <font color="#66cc00"></font></span></span> <div><font color="#ffcc00">yes yes wizzys are gimped on single target encouters, do u really want me to start listing the mobs I have seen and know for a fact that my lvl 60 guild leader has brought down with his 'utterly gimped' wizzy. </font><span><span><span>Your guild leader can like most wizards solo heroics because he has good roots not a high capability for DPS. Those are useless on raids and not what the the discussion is about.</span></span></span> </div></blockquote> <div></div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Alli]

I got to say, I got a good laugh at the absurdity of some of the posts in this thread. SOE has stated that top DPS classes for the mage / scout lines is going to be Wizard / Warlock, Ranger / Assassin....Why is this an issue? Why do people think that a wizard should always do more dmg than anyone else? I keep seeing the broad grouping of all "scouts", this too is insufficient. Bards and Rogues do not compare to a predators DPS. They do offer tremendous utility. Predators do not for the most part offer anything but DPS. I will share with you what these poisons that certain people were complaining about do for YOU as a wizard / warlock. Numbing Blizzard ~ 871 Heat, Cold Resist Debuff, Curse of the Djinn ~ 871 Magic Debuff, Wave of Calamity ~ 871 Divine, Mental Debuff. I know the Numbing cold is what will probably go over the best....also as someone posted, Rangers do get a 1300ish point heat debuff, we also get a 900ish magic debuff op top of poison debuffs.... And in Adept III Defensive stance I wouldnt try to tank for long without stun poisons or slow poison on....and I am not decked out in crap gear, but I am not all T6 fabled either. Kaeros responded well to the OP. Well said. I read in the posts someone said something about aggro reducers and do on, and complained about IC hitting and creating uber aggro until they die....You know, Triple Arrow with the groups procs, poison procs, and imbued procs can generate insane aggro if a ranger isnt paying attention, and it usually cant be dumped until the ranger is dead. I do not complain when I get out DPSed on groups of mobs by a conjurer or necro.... That is thier element.....and they are T2 DPS.   /shrug I dont like seeing classes get nerfed, and I see wizards / warlocks that play well doing things I do, and now that stuns are nerfed on epics, they are doing things I cant do anymore <span>:smileyhappy:</span> . Big deal. <div></div>

[massem]

<span><blockquote><hr>BlackAdderDrop wrote:On the wizzy resistance problem... Instead of hating that Ranger in your group.. ask him to use his melee snare on the next triple up mob(adept 1 debuffs about 1220 heat, called tanglethorn)  This includes epics ppl...  now my 45 wizzy with 300 int and BoF master 1 has his rangers debuff the lvl 52 mobs she tries to hit, and guess what at 45 I can bop lvl 52 mobs with that ranger help,  whats better is I can do 2200+ (top so far)  with that and piercing icicles adIII on said 52 mob.  So dont hate the ranger.. learn how the ranger can help you.  My wizzy brings alot to a group thru buffs, defence and wep procs... I use them smartly and I dont mind not being top DPS all the time.   I have a 60 Ranger that I played a long time and a 45 wizzy, both equipped very well.  And at lvl 45 my wizard solod the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] fire toad so there, a well played wizzy is good fun in groups and solo, I could never solo the fire toad with my ranger til lvl 49 or so.  I know my 60 ranger with adIII bow arts debuff, stun and legen poison demolishes mobs, and will out DPS all but the most aggressive wizzy.  I dont think that is changing but to know the two classes and to be helped by ranger/wizzy makes the groups do even more. <hr></blockquote></span>We don't hate rangers at all, just the fact that some of them work so hard to convince us that we do uber-dps on raids when all the raid parses say differently. <span>To be out-dpsed by a wizard it's not enough with an agre</span>ssive Wizard - you also need to go afk or die before the first half of the fight is over <span>:smileyhappy:</span> <div></div>

[Jay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Evian1 wrote: <P>I don't think rangers should be nerfed, not at all. I think they should look into this stupid int thing that is making every int class weaker the higher they level if they dont chase the int cap. I think they should make wizards more sustainable in long term fights either by making our power coverter more efficient, giving us spells that will spread out our damage more then burn it all up for massive power.</P> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>These are good points, and informative for those of us who don't play wizards and see your problems firsthand. From the bulk of the responses I've read, it does seem to be the long fights / raids where you guys seem to suffer. Is the biggest problem a matter of just not doing enough damage, or power consumption? FWIW, I'm sincerely fine with you doing as much damage as we do, even more in certain situations - I didn't create my ranger to be the best DPS in the game, I play a ranger b/c that's the class I've always identified with most closely across all games.</P> <P>OneBadAlien, I understand your points about paying for DPS and standing on your head invised while juggling (ROFL!) to increase your output. I wasn't trying to imply that you have it easy or shouldn't complain, just pointing out some facets of our class that people might not be aware of. Since the OP was a 'scouts get X, we don't' kind of post, I wanted to point out what ELSE we get that you don't, and probably don't want to get. When I said "rangers are not better than wizards" I meant inherently, as a class. Given the posts here, it's clear what you meant is true - that rangers are in a better condition to fill the role they're intended for than wizards are, currently. And as someone who played a broken class for months, you have my sympathy there. I know how frustrating it can be to be given a job to do without the tools to do it.</P> <P>Thanks also to Masseman for some very informative posts that help illuminate the real problems here. Here's to more positive interaction between our classes in the future.</P>

[jarlaxle8]

<P>@masseman<BR>just a little notice on the point of high power cost for the wizard dps opposed to no POWER cost for the poison dps of predators/rogues: may i hint to you that not all of us have a tier 6  alchemist up their sleeve *cough*. so therefore we may not pay in power, but pretty sure pay in coin for the poison dps... :smileytongue:<BR>i made the 'unlucky' choice of going woodworker. ah, but i have these fine power regen totems for you... :smileywink:</P> <P>as for the rest: can't comment much. don't raid, don't have a wiz in EQ2. if it's needed, more power to them. but don't call for the nerf bat. don't take every parse as is. and don't take a few from an other class and say 'look what they can do'. there will always be those of your class that may do the same or more...</P> <DIV>--------------------------<BR><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=383113204" target=_self>Ryilan Nightbreeze </A><BR>--------------------------</DIV>

[Saihung23]

<P>Ok, Jay42 can be very diplomatic and very nice when it comes to debate.  I can too...sometimes...but this is just insulting.</P> <P>I remember when Wizards were alone at the top with regards to DPS and I was a young player to this game, I remember seeing everyone and their grandmother calling for Wizard nerfs...but not in the Ranger forums.  Everyone was rolling up Wizards left and right because they wanted to have uber DPS.  Some people were calling outright for nerfs on them saying noone will group with *insert class here* anymore, I am raid obsolete.  </P> <P>I thought it was wrong then and I still think it is wrong to call for a nerf on another class.  Why not lobby for your "broken" class to be fixed?  Instead of demanding that scouts be nerfed so that they are again second tier DPS.  Lets face it that is what you want right?  You want to sit alone atop your pedastal of uberness.  </P> <P>I never call for the nerf of another...I try to support the threads in my classes forums that bring up bugs/concerns of rangers.  I dont do things like this:</P> <P>"I am tired of paying 20 gold for legendary poisons to do good DPS when wizards and other high tier DPS dont have to pay for anything!!!  Wizards should have to purchase player crafted mana stones that will only do serious damage if they are legendary!  Wizards need to be nerfed so their roots are more in line with scout ensnares!! Wizards Casting range is too far...if a ranger cant shoot why should a Wizard be able to?"</P> <P>I dont do that...I wont do that...but maybe I should start.  By throwing another class under the nerf bus you are creating class hostility and I dont like it.  To me, I play and try to help other classes when I can.  I will continue to do so regardless of how petty and pathetic you people seem for attacking a class unprovoked.  I think you have been wearing those dresses too long (which reminds me...how are you going to complain that we have great mitigation and tanking ability, which is a myth, when you chose a class with robes for armor ? )</P> <P>I am tired...I invaded your forum...and feel dirty now.  </P> <P>I hope your class is "fixed" so you can go be dps tank healer and maybe a scout all in one...you guys can be the one wizzie group.  Maybe even start a one wizzie guild to go along with it.  [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] I mad now!</P> <P>I gotta go.  Please direct all hate mail and insults to me via smoke signals or telepathy. Thank you.</P> <P>Peace Health and Happiness</P> <P>Saihung Tailchaser</P> <P>Faydark server</P> <P>47th ranked Ranger</P> <P>41st carpenter</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[xandez]

<DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=159258" target=_blank><SPAN>Saihung23</SPAN></A> hit the nail with my feelings... thats the reason why i invaded your forum.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just trying to understand why _balancing_ should automatically mean downgrading some other class? And also like some other poster said in this thread, i have yet failed to see how bad wizards _suck_. Imo, they are nice. Silk wearers yes, but still nice :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, i appologise if i have hurt someone by my posting, but rangers are my soft spot <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hopefully the things which concern your class will be solved, and the sub-parness you feel in raids corrected in a proper way.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Best of luck!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>++Xan</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[jarlaxle8]

<P>ohoh! there you have it now. you angered one of our feline rangers! saihung will bear down on you like his hunting hawk (when it's in mood) and shoot your brains out with his uber bow and tank your butt to hell (cause he can tank like a champ) :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>but seriously, he is right in a way. angered though his post seems, he is right about we not calling out nerf on others, or even envy them. if we see a problem, we try to solve it and give constructive feedback without trying to compare. it's not possible to compare exactly anyway.</P> <P>jays post where he points out the myths and truths of our class is good too. take it to heart. we are not uber, we get whacked, we can't dps in every situation, poisons make a big difference but at a cost, etc.</P> <P>if the issue is 'i hang around in raids and feel useless' point that out. because that seems the only real problem. even other wizards speak against the 'i parsed some crap dps' generalisation. get your class repaired where you think it's needed. don't point at others.</P> <P>peace pls. thx.</P> <P>--------------------------<BR><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=383113204" target=_self>Ryilan Nightbreeze </A><BR>--------------------------</P> <p>Message Edited by jarlaxle888 on <span class=date_text>12-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:58 PM</span>

[Saihung23]

<P>        kk I calmed down...sorry if it was an angry post...I just feel betrayed by this thread...I have a roommate who plays a 36 Wizzie, and he loves it, as much as I do my scout (ranger).  I regularly see what he can do with his wizard and it is impressive.  Not that it takes anything away from my toon, but it is [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] impressive when a Wiz roots something and gets rythym going and can keep a mob permarooted.  (Confidentially, this is why scouts loved the recently re-nerfed touch of the beholder...it made us able to stun a mob for a long time, but it was nerfed to no end..as it should have been) I watched him take down a ^^ mob and not get hit once...I needless to say was thoroughly impressed.</P> <P>        Now, he has some decent equipment, some fabled, most legendary...and good scrolls, all adept I or better.  I am not saying that you folks are wrong that wizards need some fixing...but I can solo what he does.   I can try, with Legshot at master II and an adept III snare (I dont have snaring shot yet) but that heroic mob WILL get to me at some point...and I had better do all the damage I can in the beginning.  Because if not...I am done with the good dps...I have to switch stances and try to survive toe to toe which isnt somehting my Wizard pal has to deal with....</P> <P>       You know what...I am reading all of this as I write it and I just am tired of trying to make anyone understand why it is better to go for the fix than the nerf.  We are different classes with similar functions solo and in group...its only natural that we classes compete a bit...but man...dont let your forum become a breeding ground for "insertclasshere" needs to be nerfed threads.</P> <P>Who knows...maybe someday us arrowflingers and you robies can stand atop all of this ugliness and say we perservered through a rough time together....rangers were pretty borked at one point, and we as a group feel stronger for toughing out the low times.  Use this to bring yourselves together.</P> <P>Is this part of the same forum invasion? I think so hehe...be kind to each other <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[massem]

<span><blockquote><hr>jarlaxle888 wrote:<p>@massemanjust a little notice on the point of high power cost for the wizard dps opposed to no POWER cost for the poison dps of predators/rogues: may i hint to you that not all of us have a tier 6  alchemist up their sleeve *cough*. so therefore we may not pay in power, but pretty sure pay in coin for the poison dps... :smileytongue:i made the 'unlucky' choice of going woodworker. ah, but i have these fine power regen totems for you... :smileywink:</p> <p>as for the rest: can't comment much. don't raid, don't have a wiz in EQ2. if it's needed, more power to them. but don't call for the nerf bat. don't take every parse as is. and don't take a few from an other class and say 'look what they can do'. there will always be those of your class that may do the same or more...</p> <div>--------------------------<a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=383113204" target="_self">Ryilan Nightbreeze </a>--------------------------</div><hr></blockquote>I WANT poison to be expensive - after all I sell it <span>:smileyhappy:</span>. And wouldn't it be cool if those totems gave in combat power regen ? </span><div></div>

[hieronym]

<DIV>its good to see some wizzies actually knowing how to play their class and being happy with it. For the others who dont go learn how to play and stop asking for nerfs</DIV>

[massem]

<span><blockquote><hr>hieronymus wrote: <div>its good to see some wizzies actually knowing how to play their class and being happy with it. For the others who dont go learn how to play and stop asking for nerfs</div><hr></blockquote></span>Cool - I was so waiting for the always so informative  "Shut up and learn how to play your class post" contributions in this thread. Say - did you ever play a wizard on a raid ? <span>:smileyhappy:</span><div></div>

[Crychtonn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> masseman wrote:<BR> <P>With my assassin I out DPS wizards and warlocks of the same level on single-target encounters even in exp-groups, however my assassin may not be the typical assassin since I have a basically free supply of legendary poisons (made by my own alchie) which can add ridicolus amount of damage. If I were using handcrafted or vendor poisons probably the numbers would turn out differently. Assassins complaining about their DPS are mostly comparing themselves to rangers, brigands and swashies which are even more overpowered compared to wizards.<BR><BR>I am saying that Assassins, Rangers, Brigands and Swashies usually mop the floor with us when it comes to <B><I>raids</I></B> . The reason is manly that scouts do not use a lot of power, and if they run out they still have good damage from their autoattack . <FONT color=#ff0000>Also, scouts benefits much more from raid buffs than we do.  The result is that a good wizard  can do  around  50-75% of the DPS of scout on a boss raid encounter.</FONT>  But its true what you say,  occasionaly, on  multi mob encounters we can do good raid DPS however these are seldom the most important fight in a raid, and those mobs can just as well be AE mezzed and picked out one by one.<BR><BR><BR>Message Edited by masseman on <SPAN class=date_text>12-01-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>03:44 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Mess you agreed with every post I tried to convey here :smileyvery-happy:  The problem is your still giving credit for all that extra group buff damage to the Scout !!!  You seem to be very good with a parser and also raid.  Next time how about you go back and reallocate all that extra group buff proc damage to the classes giving the buff.  While the scout may get credit for the damage on the parser it's really the other class that gives the buff that created that DPS.  Give DPS credit where DPS credit is due and you will have a completely different parser picture.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes on raid mobs even after doing this there's a good chance the scout will be above a wizard I've already agreed and pointed out that way to many raid mobs are heat/cold immune or resistant.  Don't get on other classes just because SOE has no imagination in spreading out resists on raid mobs.  Especially not scouts that had to deal with the Exact same situation with raid mobs that were both pierce and slash immune for half a year after the game first came out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[hieronym]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> masseman wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> hieronymus wrote:<BR> <DIV>its good to see some wizzies actually knowing how to play their class and being happy with it. For the others who dont go learn how to play and stop asking for nerfs</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN>Cool - I was so waiting for the always so informative  "Shut up and learn how to play your class post" contributions in this thread.<BR><BR>Say - did you ever play a wizard on a raid ? <SPAN>:smileyhappy:</SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>tbh you bought on my remark because reading so many of these posts where certain classes cry about other classes being better they dont really know how to play their class properly and get the best from it. They just go from day 1 complaining to soe on the forums about how their class is broke or how other classes are better they dont actually go out and play to find a different play style that works for the changes. </P> <P>Maybe you played a ranger before POF came out? but I doubt it so you may have no idea on how we played our class well to get the maximum result even though we were well underpowered compared to other classes.</P> <P>The feel I get from most wiz is all they have to do is stand at the back and blast the mob to death. Hence why I chose the remark go learn how to play :smileytongue:</P>

[jarlaxle8]

<span><span><blockquote><hr>masseman wrote:<span>I WANT poison to be expensive - after all I sell it <span>:smileyhappy:</span>. And wouldn't it be cool if those totems gave in combat power regen ? </span><div></div><hr></blockquote></span>boy, i bet you do want em to be expensive. but remember, we pay gold for it and therefore we pay gold for a big amount of our dps. gold doesn't regen like power... <span>:smileyhappy:</span> and hell, i would love to make totems like that. then i can price em high and get all that gold back from you... <span>:smileytongue:</span></span><div></div>

[sjaste]

<DIV>OK guys; Wizards used to be top of the range best DPS out there just about 35% of all rangers at the time switched to them because rangers were bugged low DPS and all sorts of stuff; now that SOE finally fixes ranger to be how they should; thoughs of you who stuck with it get the pleasure of being happy with there class, but Wizards didn't get improved so they are complaining; all I have to say is. You had your uber powers granted and we didn't complain and call for nerfs; I'm sure others did but Rangers did no such thing. Please give us rangers whom stuck out the hard times the Curusy of enjoying our class before we get booted to bottom of bucket again and have to start spaming our forum to be repaired. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On a side note when we tank we can not do much damage; all of our attacks are restricted to in need of stealth and behind the enemy; and it's not mitigation that lets us tank it's avoidance something which you have been granted more potential with as of our armours weight.</DIV>

[TwistedFaith]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> masseman wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> valleyboy1 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> masseman wrote:<BR><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00>k on single targets, damm how much does Ice Comet hit for 4-6k, the ranger equivilant does 4.5 - 7k and is on a fifteen minute timer. I group with high level wizzys often and on single targets heroics u guys cannot be beaten. How about some other wizzys commenting on this, because all my experience with wizzys have been that on single targets you guys are awesome.</FONT><BR></P> <P>Ice comet does on avarage 5000 damage every 50 seconds or so giving around 100 DPS for a large power cost. Legendary T6 poison alone Ranger or assassin power does 120-180 DPS in the parses I have made, without any power cost and not even counting your autoattack damage which would do around the same. If you don't have better arguments than that its better to keep quiet.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>Fights are over so quickly, there's never any need to resort to melee in the first place. Damm with the nukes a lvl 60 wizzy has, heroic mobs bite the dust well before you are oom.</FONT><BR></P></SPAN><FONT color=#66cc00></FONT><FONT color=#ffcc00>manafeeds are not useless, neither are the buffs you bring. Just because all you seem to want to do is HUGE DPS doesnt mean the rest of the wizzy utility is worthless.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN><BR><BR>Thats right - my heat/cold buffs are sometimes useful.<SPAN><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN><BR></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><BR><SPAN><SPAN> <P></P></SPAN></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00>Again your commenting on this stuff like rangers/assasins have a huge unlimited supply of tier 6 standard and rare crafted potions/posions. In that case cant all classes buff str/agi/sta/wis/int and also add resistence for all types of dmg. Having the ability to buy potions and posions isnt some uber 'class feature'. </FONT><BR></P> <P></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN>What classes can use poison ? Wizards ? Warlocks ? Templar ? No not really ...<BR></P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>So wizzys cant use strength, intelligence, agility, wisdom, stamina and ALL the other potions (not posions!) that rangers use? </FONT></P><FONT color=#66cc00></FONT></SPAN></SPAN> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>yes yes wizzys are gimped on single target encouters, do u really want me to start listing the mobs I have seen and know for a fact that my lvl 60 guild leader has brought down with his 'utterly gimped' wizzy.<BR><BR></FONT><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN>Your guild leader can like most wizards solo heroics because he has good roots not a high capability for DPS. Those are useless on raids and not what the the discussion is about.</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#ff3300>Oh so your happy solo'ing heroics you just also want to be ahead of everyother class on raids also? Raids are situational, like has been said many times, just because a wizzy may not do as much dps as another class on a raid doesnt mean they are instantly </FONT><FONT color=#ff3300>"utterly gimped".</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#ff3300>Seems to me the discussion is about you crying for a ranger nerf and it's pretty pathetic, every class has issues but by no means are wizzys the utterly gimped class you are trying to make them out to be.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#ff3300>Where was it written that on raids wizzys must do equal to or more dps than a ranger? If this is the case I demand a nerf to wizzys ability to put out such huge dps on heroics. My sniper shot is on a 15min timer, I demand it is brought down to match the timer of icecomet, it's only fair after all why should a wizzy out dps a ranger on a heroic mob? </FONT></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[TwistedFaith]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> hieronymus wrote: <P>Maybe you played a ranger before POF came out? but I doubt it so you may have no idea on how we played our class well to get the maximum result even though we were well underpowered compared to other classes.</P> <P>The feel I get from most wiz is all they have to do is stand at the back and blast the mob to death. Hence why I chose the remark go learn how to play :smileytongue:</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>This is exactly how I feel, wizzys are so used to being top dps in any situation, they really throw the dummy if any other class dares to do more damage than them. </DIV>

[massem]

<DIV> <DIV> <P>As I have stated many times in my posts the situation I talk about is raids. For solo or group play Wizard DPS is basically fine.  The only ones in this thread  talking about ranger nerfs are rangers - the wizards seem to be more focussed on the necessary fixes for wizards and you rangers on explaining why we dont't need fixing.  And by the way, even if its not related to the posts I made earlier, wizards don't outdamage rangers on normal heroics unless the ranger has forgotten to apply poison. </P> <P>What is your motivation for trying to motivate that Wizards should be gimped on raids ? Just because Rangers were gimped before revamp other classes should be now :smileyhappy: ? </P> <P> </P> <P></P> <HR> <P>valleyboy1 wrote:<BR><BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> masseman wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> valleyboy1 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> masseman wrote:<BR><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>Fights are over so quickly, there's never any need to resort to melee in the first place. Damm with the nukes a lvl 60 wizzy has, heroic mobs bite the dust well before you are oom.</FONT><BR>Who is talking about heroic mobs ?  And by the way - Rangers tend to outdamage wizzies on heroics as well but marginally, unless you forgot to apply poison :smileyhappy:</P></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> <P><SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#ff3300>So wizzys cant use strength, intelligence, agility, wisdom, stamina and ALL the other potions (not posions!) that rangers use? </FONT></SPAN></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Yes, but what has this do with the scout/mage DPS ? I am puzzled :smileyhappy:</FONT></SPAN></SPAN>. Again which classes can use poison ? </P> <P><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#ff3300>Oh so your happy solo'ing heroics you just also want to be ahead of everyother class on raids also? Raids are situational, like has been said many times, just because a wizzy may not do as much dps as another class on a raid doesnt mean they are instantly </FONT><FONT color=#ff3300>"utterly gimped".</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>So you think its fair wizards should be gimped in raid situations because we can solo som heroics ? A good Ranger can solo the same heroics. a wizard can solo. It may require a stun poison or so but it is doable. The attitude you show here is is just what will get people asking for Ranger nerfs. Raiding is basically the entire endgame, and if that is broken - the class is broken.  That we can solo well is not really a good replacement for a good raiding endgame. </FONT></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#ff3300>Where was it written that on raids wizzys must do equal to or more dps than a ranger? If this is the case I demand a nerf to wizzys ability to put out such huge dps on heroics. My sniper shot is on a 15min timer, I demand it is brought down to match the timer of icecomet, it's only fair after all why should a wizzy out dps a ranger on a heroic mob? </FONT></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE>A good wizard should do more damage on a single encounter than a ranger, because we are DD specialist and you are AOE. Rangers should outdamage wizzies on multiple targets. That is why the thing is called <EM>balance. Hint: - When everything is tilted one-way it is not Balance :smileyhappy:</EM> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV> <P>Message Edited by masseman on <SPAN class=date_text>12-01-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:35 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by masseman on <span class=date_text>12-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:41 PM</span>

[Crychtonn]

Just a quick clarification Mass, rangers are not a AoE specialized class they are a single target DD class.  Ranger's have one AoE skill all the way to 49 when they hit 50 they get a second and that's it.  One AE is on a one minute timer the second is a three minute timer.  I'd hardly call that an AE specialized class.  Ranger's like Assassin's are setup for maximum damage on a single target. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've tried to explain several times why scouts can and will out dps wizards on raids mobs.  The game and parser mechanic's behind this.  Agreed with you that to many raid mobs are immune / resistent to wizards.  But I guess you won't be happy until you can do double or more the dps of any other class.  And yes that is what your asking for by stating you should be equal or higher to a raid buff scout that is receiving dps credit from 1-5 other group members buff.  Good luck in your campaign but I doubt you'll have much success. The Dev's are smart enough to understand why and how those scouts are posting high dps and associate that extra dps back to those other classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Since you appear to be dead set in your view I'll just move along. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[massem]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Crychtonn wrote:<BR>Just a quick clarification Mass, rangers are not a AoE specialized class they are a single target DD class.  Ranger's have one AoE skill all the way to 49 when they hit 50 they get a second and that's it.  One AE is on a one minute timer the second is a three minute timer.  I'd hardly call that an AE specialized class.  Ranger's like Assassin's are setup for maximum damage on a single target. <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>So its just  a secondary coincidental  bonus that you happen to have really Cool AoE ? Oh I would love to have that bonus ....:smileyhappy:</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've tried to explain several times why scouts can and will out dps wizards on raids mobs. The game and parser mechanic's behind this.  Agreed with you that to many raid mobs are immune / resistent to wizards.  But I guess you won't be happy until you can do double or more the dps of any other class.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>What I am asking for is the ability to do roughly the same damage as an assassin on single targets and around 70-80% of a Ranger on multiple targets, and a change in the game mechanics that would make that possible. </FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>And yes that is what your asking for by stating you should be equal or higher to a raid buff scout that is receiving dps credit from 1-5 other group members buff.  <DIV>Good luck in your campaign but I doubt you'll have much success. The Dev's are smart enough to understand why and how those scouts are posting high dps and associate that extra dps back to those other classes.</DIV></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>One way of solving the problem may be to make caster raid buffs as effective as melee DPS raidbuffs. For example, double the powere regen rate of chanters and include buffs for spell haste.  That would be a good solution even if it does not involve increaseing the individual damage of each of our spells.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Since you appear to be dead set in your view I'll just move along. </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Yes I am dead set in my view that wizards should be a viable DPS class on raids. Have fun with your ranger - I hope you won't get nerfed down to the state of wizards are now. If you bother to read the companion thread about possible fixes to wizards you can rest assured that none of the suggestions are to nerf Rangers.:smileyhappy: .. You seem to be dead set in your view that rangers should remain kings of DPS in all situations so I guess there is no possible compromise there.</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Epofh]

As a wizard, we should be king of single taget DPS, in mooregaurds post, we WIZARDS are #1, with warlocks tied with us, we should be king dps in all situations, we have no armor, we rely on others for our protection, we have only a few minor group buffs, and they suck btw (except tyrant line).  Not to mention the fact that a host of raid bossess are fire/ice immune, and we CANNOT switch damage types, and if the boss is not resistant, if we try and maintain anything close to scout/pet class we are soon OOM, our spells are horribly ineffiecient, I don't want any other class to be nerfed because of our short comeings, I want our spells to be more mana-effiecient, and I want bosses to at least not be so harsh on fire/ice type damage. THAT IS ALL I WANT AS A WIZZY.

[Crychtonn]

<P>ok you hooked me back in :smileytongue:</P> <P>So your saying that wizards have zero AE skills ?? Damm that'll be new to the wizards I know.  And just a FYI assassin's have two AE same as rangers guess that makes them AE specialist also.  You should check out those Zerker's and Pally's.  Damm do they have some nice AE skills.  Guess they are AE specialist also.  Silly me thinking that classes like warlocks and conjorurs where most of their skills were AE were the AE specialist.  Guess since they each have a couple DD skills they are really single target classes.</P> <P>For the record I never once said ranger are or should be the dps king.   The thing I find the funniest here is that you think they are.  Do they out dps wizards on raid, yes been stated and given the background on how and why it happens.  But I can call off three other classes that can and will reguarly out dps a ranger on raids.  Difference is I don't complain about them even though none of them are 'supposed to be' teir 1 dps.</P> <P>I got it.  Lets go make a super special parser that will credit all the group buff proc's to you.  Then you can be king of the dps world and can just ignore those little people in the group with you giving all that extra dps.  Personally I don't care who gets credit for all that extra proc damage.  Hell I'd prefer you got credit for it then i would never have to worry about pulling aggro.  Dev's can we please have this change ??  From now on all group buff proc damage is to be credited to the wizards.  YAY no scout will ever get yelled at on a raid for pulling aggro again :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P> </P>

[massem]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Hmm you keep on failing to adress the main points of my posts. I ask you again, would you see it fair if Wizards could do roughly the same DPS as an assassin, and about 70-80% of a ranger on multiple targets ? Or if as you say, that Rangers are sngle-target specialists - Roughly the same on both AE and single-target ?</FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> Crychtonn wrote:<BR>ok you hooked me back in :smileytongue: <P>So your saying that wizards have zero AE skills ?? Damm that'll be new to the wizards I know.  And just a FYI assassin's have two AE same as rangers guess that makes them AE specialist also.  You should check out those Zerker's and Pally's.  Damm do they have some nice AE skills.  Guess they are AE specialist also.  Silly me thinking that classes like warlocks and conjorurs where most of their skills were AE were the AE specialist.  Guess since they each have a couple DD skills they are really single target classes.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Did</FONT><FONT color=#ff0000> you ever compare your AoE DPS to an Assassin (or Warlock)  ? It seems not ....:smileyhappy:. But nevermind - I will not try to explain to a ranger, what a Ranger is and is not supposed to be.  And ... lets leave Zerkers and pallys out of this - this is ciomplicated enough without that :smileyhappy:. If we try to stick to the point, we might actually be able to agree on something.</FONT></P> <P>For the record I never once said ranger are or should be the dps king.   The thing I find the funniest here is that you think they are.  Do they out dps wizards on raid, yes been stated and given the background on how and why it happens.  But I can call off three other classes that can and will reguarly out dps a ranger on raids.  Difference is I don't complain about them even though none of them are 'supposed to be' teir 1 dps.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Yeah I agree that part of the reason why Rangers (and other scout DPS) do so great damage on raids is the buffs they get from other group members. Why whould it be unfair or threatening to rangers if Wizards could benefit in the same way from other group members buffs? . </FONT></P> <P>I got it.  Lets go make a super special parser that will credit all the group buff proc's to you.  Then you can be king of the dps world and can just ignore those little people in the group with you giving all that extra dps.  Personally I don't care who gets credit for all that extra proc damage.  Hell I'd prefer you got credit for it then i would never have to worry about pulling aggro.  Dev's can we please have this change ??  From now on all group buff proc damage is to be credited to the wizards.  YAY no scout will ever get yelled at on a raid for pulling aggro again :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Ehrm -- exactly what is it you are trying to say - should for example your poison procs be attributed to your alchemist ? :smileyhappy:</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by masseman on <span class=date_text>12-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:19 PM</span>

[Grimda]

<DIV> <P>As the OP, I never called or insinuated that rangers (or scouts) should be nerfed.  I also didn't imply I disliked my wizard.  Every class has strengths and weaknesses which make them unique.   I'd like to think in net there is a balance that makes each class worthwhile to play.  When one class sees another class dominating in areas they feel are characteristic of their own class yet has none of the countering weaknesses, its natural to prompt the "balance" question.</P> <P>So I rolled a wizard to be high-dps. I accepted the disability of being as "weak as a 20 year old paper bag".   But let's take the ranger class. Why did SOE bless the ranger with top-dps yet give them far better physical mitigation than us and utilities being somewhat equal.  Better raiding... Better soling... That appears to be an inbalance prima facie. Some of the posts give a more detailed analysis of the class differences and questions my premise.  Which was really the point of my post, to prompt that discussion. </P> <P>Ultimately if a significant imbalance exists,  SOE only has a limited set of options.  Do nothing.  Nerf the class.  Make the mobs harder (which weakens all classes), or hopefully adjust the ailing class(es).  </P> <P>Having said that however, any class that has a chain of posters bragging about soloing scornfeather roost, hidden cache,  and named in poets at will are going to get attention.  BTW, the wizard soloing epicx2 was a false statement and the author corrected himself. </P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=39&message.id=15683&view=by_date_ascending&page=1" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=39&message.id=15683&view=by_date_ascending&page=1</FONT></A></P> <P>Of all possible outcomes I'd prefer to have wizard fixed. I did start a separate thread on that. </P> <P> </P></DIV>

[Crychtonn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> masseman wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Hmm you keep on failing to adress the main points of my posts. I ask you again, would you see it fair if Wizards could do roughly the same DPS as an assassin, and about 70-80% of a ranger on multiple targets ? Or if as you say, that Rangers are sngle-target specialists - Roughly the same on both AE and single-target ?</FONT></P> <P></P> <P><FONT color=#33cc00>Lets see 10 single target bow CA's ; 7 single target melee CA's ; 1 encounter AE ; 1 out of encounter AE.  Personally I'd have to say 17 single target attacks vs 2 AE tagert attacks would classify someone as a single target specialist.  But then again maybe I'm just slow and your right that 2 out of 19 is a AE specialty class.  Make that 3 AE's if you want to count the Trap spell.</FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> Crychtonn wrote:<BR>ok you hooked me back in :smileytongue: <P>So your saying that wizards have zero AE skills ?? Damm that'll be new to the wizards I know.  And just a FYI assassin's have two AE same as rangers guess that makes them AE specialist also.  You should check out those Zerker's and Pally's.  Damm do they have some nice AE skills.  Guess they are AE specialist also.  Silly me thinking that classes like warlocks and conjorurs where most of their skills were AE were the AE specialist.  Guess since they each have a couple DD skills they are really single target classes.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Did</FONT><FONT color=#ff0000> you ever compare your AoE DPS to an Assassin (or Warlock)  ? It seems not ....:smileyhappy:. But nevermind - I will not try to explain to a ranger, what a Ranger is and is not supposed to be.  And ... lets leave Zerkers and pallys out of this - this is ciomplicated enough without that :smileyhappy:. If we try to stick to the point, we might actually be able to agree on something.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33cc00>To an Assassin yes I have.  Our 1 minute refresh AE does almost the exact same damage.  I can't recall their second AE but believe it was on a shorter recast then Storm which is three minutes.  Damage was comparable.  Warlocks I just haven't grouped with enough to compare other then they have been stated as one of if not the best for AE damage.  And no you shouldn't leave any class out if you want to do raid comparison's.  Some of the fighter classes can do amazing dps in AE situation.  Even better then scouts at time.</FONT></P> <P>For the record I never once said ranger are or should be the dps king.   The thing I find the funniest here is that you think they are.  Do they out dps wizards on raid, yes been stated and given the background on how and why it happens.  But I can call off three other classes that can and will reguarly out dps a ranger on raids.  Difference is I don't complain about them even though none of them are 'supposed to be' teir 1 dps.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Yeah I agree that part of the reason why Rangers (and other scout DPS) do so great damage on raids is the buffs they get from other group members. Why whould it be unfair or threatening to rangers if Wizards could benefit in the same way from other group members buffs? . </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33cc00>It wouldn't be unfair but your whole basis of wizards being underpowered is being based on over inflated parser numbers.  Your trying to compare a wizard that receives little to no additional damage from other group members to a scout that is getting additional dps credit from group member A, B, C and D.  That is a false comparison.  A true comparison would be a wizard vs a scout with all additional proc damage removed.  That proc damage belongs to the classes places the buffs.  It is not the scouts DPS.  Your being envious and feeling underpowered because a simple parser is giving DPS credit to one class that is actually being created by another.  Sorry you'll never win me over on that one.</FONT></P> <P>I got it.  Lets go make a super special parser that will credit all the group buff proc's to you.  Then you can be king of the dps world and can just ignore those little people in the group with you giving all that extra dps.  Personally I don't care who gets credit for all that extra proc damage.  Hell I'd prefer you got credit for it then i would never have to worry about pulling aggro.  Dev's can we please have this change ??  From now on all group buff proc damage is to be credited to the wizards.  YAY no scout will ever get yelled at on a raid for pulling aggro again :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Ehrm -- exactly what is it you are trying to say - should for example your poison procs be attributed to your alchemist ? :smileyhappy:</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33cc00>Sure I'd love to assign my poison damage to those alchemist.   Teach them to overcharge on poisons :smileytongue:</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33cc00>Hey I was trying to give you what you wanted here.  Moving all buff's that proc damage to proc off your abilities and not mine.  You can have all that extra false dps and all the real aggro that goes with it.  I'll be quite happy sitting back doing my thing knowing my real dps never changed.</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P>Message Edited by masseman on <SPAN class=date_text>12-01-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>03:19 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[QQ-Fatman]

<DIV>Wizards' problems are mostly IN RAID! ... not in solo, and rarely in exp group.<BR> <BR>Main problems:<BR>1. Mana:<BR>   We run out of mana too fast (usually no longer than 2 minutes if we chain cast.) And if we dont have mana, we dont have dps - zero dps! Sorcerers are the only dps classes that dont have any free attacks (auto-attacks or pets.)<BR> <BR>   Solution: reduce our spell mana cost and greatly improve our sefl hp->mana conversion spells. Also we would be happy if we can pay some gold for a mana free attack like scout's poison.<BR> <BR>2. Aggro:<BR>   Scouts have de-taunts, summoners have pets to share aggro, but we have nothing. Even when we have mana, we cant do the samd dps as scouts or we will get killed.<BR> <BR>   Solution: greatly improve our mail of frost. Reduce its recast time to one minute (it's not 15 mins, which makes it useless.) Make it works like scouts detaunts so we dont have to be hit to reduce hate.<BR> <BR>Other problems:<BR>1. Immune:<BR>   Though this is much better in DoF than it was in the old world, it's still a problem. We have mostly heat spells and only few magic and cold ones. It is very bad for us to fight heat immune mobs. And there are still some heat + cold immune mobs.<BR> <BR>   Solution: give us some cold nukes (they can be on the same timer to our heat spells.) Remove those stupid elemental (heat + cold) immune mobs.<BR> <BR>2. Cast time:<BR>   While all melee classes had their CA cast time reduced in DoF, we got our cast time increased. In exp group, our target is often dead before we get our long cast spells out (especially those AE DoTvs. no arrow mobs.)<BR> <BR>   Solution: reduce spell cast time. Single target nukes shouldnt be longer than 2sec, AE shoudlnt be longer than 3sec. DoT cast time should be shorter than dds.</DIV>

[massem]

<DIV> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Crychtonn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#33cc00>It wouldn't be unfair but your whole basis of wizards being underpowered is being based on over inflated parser numbers.  Your trying to compare a wizard that receives little to no additional damage from other group members to a scout that is getting additional dps credit from group member A, B, C and D.  That is a false comparison.  A true comparison would be a wizard vs a scout with all additional proc damage removed.  That proc damage belongs to the classes places the buffs.  It is not the scouts DPS.  Your being envious and feeling underpowered because a simple parser is giving DPS credit to one class that is actually being created by another.  Sorry you'll never win me over on that one.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>I agree with you in the case of buffs of the type "next melee attack  will yield an additional cold damage of 50-60. " should be attributed to the caster of the buff, and some parsers actually do that, however the effect of these buffs are not large enough to change the general picture . </FONT><FONT color=#ff0000>The buffs that massively increase your DPS are STR buffs and haste buffs. Particularly these haste buffs are important if you are using good poison since they will change the number of procs. With Dirge and Coercer in the Melee DPS group I have seen these poison alone do 180 DPS out of a total 800-900 on a single target (Note that this is almost twice the DPS we can achieve by chain casting Ice Comet, which is one of our main damage spells).  This is not restricted to Rangers but applies also other scouts. In fact, occasionally (when one of our two damage types are resisted) even Bards and Tanks can outdamage wizards because of these debuffs. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Dont't get me wrong - I am not saying that I want to nerf Haste or the influence of STR on damage - I just want the same thing for wizard want spell haste, lower power costs and higher in-combat regen and Wizards would have a level playing field with scouts.  We already have some of it - for example Furies have good INT buffs that stack [Removed for Content] our own so we can cap INT - and that has a good effect on the damage, but we are still missing spell haste and better in-combat power regen (or lower power costs).  Troubadours have spells that proc for each of our nukes, but of course for a scout with dual wields and haste who hits several times per second the total additional damage adds up much more than for us that nukes once every 5 seconds. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>I understand completely that now that scout DPS essentially has been fixed you want to keep it that way, and all scout classes can do good DPS on all raids and that you want to keep your DPS the way it is, and I can't see any reason for changing it. Scouts are fine on raids. Neither me or the OP have proposed a scout DPS reduction as the solution - we are talking about ways of boosting wizards. </FONT><FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>Please stop telling us wizards that we don't need fixing  - that our DPS is fine when it's not -  it will just create irritation.</STRONG></FONT><FONT color=#ffffff> </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff><BR></FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by masseman on <span class=date_text>12-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:33 AM</span>

[Sollum]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Grimdayl wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Notice wizards and scout classes have become interchangeable for  dps group slots?  It's no wonder. Group with a ranger, rogue, brigand, swashy in your 50s and parse the results.  The scout is neck and neck with wizard and usually top-DPS if you can't get IC off.</DIV> <DIV><BR>Wizards die very easily, but we hit hard.  We gave up physical mitigation to earn the high-dps status.  Since scout practically has our dps and can stand-in as tanks, where's the equity here?   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I grouped with a 59 scout that tanked roost (including the named) for us.  Last night our ranger got bored and ran out and soloed a white con ^^^ giant. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Comparing wizard and scout:</DIV> <DIV>   - dps is very close (wizards on top if we get all our spells off)</DIV> <DIV>   - scout can tank </DIV> <DIV>   - scout has multiple snares, stuns and slows that appear as effective as wiz root spells</DIV> <DIV>   - scout has poisons (insanely powerful ones), and fewer resists</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>   - scout has anti-aggro attacks</DIV></DIV> <DIV>   - scout has better power mgmt and can fallback on mellee for long-haul fights</DIV> <DIV>   - has same utilities like invis and evac</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>[edited out since off-point]</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thoughts? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Grimdayl on <SPAN class=date_text>11-23-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:01 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Grimdayl on <SPAN class=date_text>11-23-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:48 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Yeah. If you want all those skills listed above, then be a ranger, if not, then quit yer whining!</DIV>

[Stormykat]

<span><blockquote><hr>QQFatman wrote:<div>Wizards' problems are mostly IN RAID! ... not in solo, and rarely in exp group. Main problems:1. Mana:   We run out of mana too fast (usually no longer than 2 minutes if we chain cast.) And if we dont have mana, we dont have dps - zero dps! Sorcerers are the only dps classes that dont have any free attacks (auto-attacks or pets.)    Solution: reduce our spell mana cost and greatly improve our sefl hp->mana conversion spells. Also we would be happy if we can pay some gold for a mana free attack like scout's poison. 2. Aggro:   Scouts have de-taunts, summoners have pets to share aggro, but we have nothing. Even when we have mana, we cant do the samd dps as scouts or we will get killed.    Solution: greatly improve our mail of frost. Reduce its recast time to one minute (it's not 15 mins, which makes it useless.) Make it works like scouts detaunts so we dont have to be hit to reduce hate. Other problems:1. Immune:   Though this is much better in DoF than it was in the old world, it's still a problem. We have mostly heat spells and only few magic and cold ones. It is very bad for us to fight heat immune mobs. And there are still some heat + cold immune mobs.    Solution: give us some cold nukes (they can be on the same timer to our heat spells.) Remove those stupid elemental (heat + cold) immune mobs. 2. Cast time:   While all melee classes had their CA cast time reduced in DoF, we got our cast time increased. In exp group, our target is often dead before we get our long cast spells out (especially those AE DoTvs. no arrow mobs.) <font color="#ff0099"> </font><font color="#ffff00">Actually Rangers had their CA cast times increased. I don't know about other scouts or other melee classes. </font>    Solution: reduce spell cast time. Single target nukes shouldnt be longer than 2sec, AE shoudlnt be longer than 3sec. DoT cast time should be shorter than dds.</div><hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[NightGod473]

<span><blockquote><hr>masseman wrote:<div><div><blockquote><blockquote><div><blockquote><p><font color="#ff0000"> </font><font color="#ff0000">The buffs that massively increase your DPS are STR buffs and haste buffs. Particularly these haste buffs are important if you are using good poison since they will change the number of procs. With Dirge and Coercer in the Melee DPS group I have seen these poison alone do 180 DPS out of a total 800-900 on a single target (Note that this is almost twice the DPS we can achieve by chain casting Ice Comet, which is one of our main damage spells). </font></p></blockquote></div></blockquote></blockquote></div></div> <hr></blockquote>Just to be sure we're being accurate here, are you sure about this statement? If haste/procs work like they did in EQLive, I know for sure that's not right, but it very well could have changed in EQ2. In EQLive, procs were averaged out to a set number of procs over time, based on DEX and possible modifiers on the proc itself-this is why Warriors who were doing Shakerpage in PoFire would duel a shaman and get slowed before they started-the already slow weapon speed of the Earthshaker, combined with the slow spell acted to greatly increase their number of procs on a single Rampage against multiple mobs. That said, things very well might be different for EQ2-I haven't spent alot of time looking into the melee classes-I've mostly been concentrating on my Wizard since I've only been back for a couple months. And I wish the Rangers would stop saying we're seeking nerfs to their abilities-we're seeking improvements to ours to bring us in line with scout classes on raids. Of course we are going to mention what your class can do-you can only point out an imbalance by presenting the abilities on both sides of the equation. As has been said, we're mostly happy with our solo and group abilities-there are a few minor issues there, but our greatest concern as a class is our ability to contribute to raids on par with the other Tier 1 DPS classes. If that means adding group buffs to other classes that will boost our ability the same way group buffs boost the abilty of scouts, I don't think anyone would have a problem with it. We're not seeking to have scouts brought down to where we are, we're seeking ways to get lifted up to where they are.</span><div></div>

[Alli]

<DIV>While you may not be trying to get other classes nerfed, there are those who dont mind it....such as the guy who posted on the ranger forums, saying "I dont care how they balance it, whether they nerf scouts, or boost my wizard."~</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Someone stated they were chasing an INT cap to maintain appropriate dmg for the lvls, and "scouts" dont chase a STR cap to do the same? Oh ya, not to mention the agi cap for power supply, while trying to raise wisdom for resists, and int for poison dmg boosts....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, you want other classes to get buffs to help you out? You do know....the poison users CAN help you out tremendously....IF they even know what poison effects are. I have found there is a level of knowledge issue with Pred / Rogues. Over half of them do not know anything but DMG poison. We can provide a large amount of debuff for Wizards. Ask them to use Numbing Blizzard. If you have more than 1 or 2 poison users, one can debuff melee stuff and one can debuff heat/cold or magic. Will that not help your DPS output? We can support you, and bring your numbers up a good bit. The same way the melee buffs, and proc buffs support us and bring up our numbers. Mind you, I lose a small amount of DPS to cast the heat debuff on mobs here and there, but I do it on raid mobs, because the DPS boost from the Wizards after having the 2100 Heat debuff, and 871 cold debuff that I provide as a Ranger far surpasses that 2 seconds of DPS that I would generate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also know that Swashbucklers have a cold debuff similar to my heat debuff. Ask them to use it, alot of people dont waste the time, because they dont think in a raid mentality. The debuffs are also snares, and as such snares are worthless on raid mobs, but the debuff still lands. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My point is simply. I can support you, and aid in maximizing your DPS. Do wizards need some tweaking and some added DPS? Sure. Rangers / Assassins, and Wizard / Warlocks should always be top of the DPS parse on raids. Depending on situation, cause on places like Silent City where all the encounters are groups of mobs, then you will see big ae classes like Conj / Necro taking top of the parse.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do not look to have any classes nerfed. I would like to see wizards right along side me. Not below me in the DPS ladder, this would mean better things for everyone raidwise.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Give the Sorcerers an aggro debuff too :smileytongue:  .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[massem]

<span><blockquote><hr>NightGod473 wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>masseman wrote:<div><div><blockquote><blockquote><div><blockquote><p><font color="#ff0000"> </font><font color="#ff0000">The buffs that massively increase your DPS are STR buffs and haste buffs. Particularly these haste buffs are important if you are using good poison since they will change the number of procs. With Dirge and Coercer in the Melee DPS group I have seen these poison alone do 180 DPS out of a total 800-900 on a single target (Note that this is almost twice the DPS we can achieve by chain casting Ice Comet, which is one of our main damage spells). </font></p></blockquote></div></blockquote></blockquote></div></div> <hr></blockquote>Just to be sure we're being accurate here, are you sure about this statement? If haste/procs work like they did in EQLive, I know for sure that's not right, but it very well could have changed in EQ2. In EQLive, procs were averaged out to a set number of procs over time, based on DEX and possible modifiers on the proc itself-this is why Warriors who were doing Shakerpage in PoFire would duel a shaman and get slowed before they started-the already slow weapon speed of the Earthshaker, combined with the slow spell acted to greatly increase their number of procs on a single Rampage against multiple mobs. That said, things very well might be different for EQ2-I haven't spent alot of time looking into the melee classes-I've mostly been concentrating on my Wizard since I've only been back for a couple months. And I wish the Rangers would stop saying we're seeking nerfs to their abilities-we're seeking improvements to ours to bring us in line with scout classes on raids. Of course we are going to mention what your class can do-you can only point out an imbalance by presenting the abilities on both sides of the equation. As has been said, we're mostly happy with our solo and group abilities-there are a few minor issues there, but our greatest concern as a class is our ability to contribute to raids on par with the other Tier 1 DPS classes. If that means adding group buffs to other classes that will boost our ability the same way group buffs boost the abilty of scouts, I don't think anyone would have a problem with it. We're not seeking to have scouts brought down to where we are, we're seeking ways to get lifted up to where they are.</span><hr></blockquote>I am sure of the figures with regards to the total sum om poison proccing, a legendary T6 poisons procs about 140-190 DPS on scout DPS with raidbuffs. The exact mechanics I am not sure of. </span><span>Total DPS by an Assassin and Ranger typically gore in the range 800-900 and a wizards around 500-600 (if there are no resist issues with heat or cold). A ranger should therefore have no problem outdpsing a wizard even without using the poison they pay so dearly for, if they bring the right type of weapons and arrows. </span><span> The game mechanics related to buffs and poisons are discussed in this thread http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=77487&query.id=94415#M77487 Although the posts on these has revealed that there are some sensible rangers who actually acknowledge wizards raid dilemma, the majority of them seem to be drama queens that will invent any type of warped arguments to resist a boost of other DPS classes. I will give them the benefit of the doubt and attribute it to ignorance rather than malevolence. Probably they have seen a wizard root-nuke solo a heroic mobs and figure we must be ok<span>:smileyhappy:</span>. </span><div></div>

[Jay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> masseman wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR></SPAN><SPAN>Although the posts on these has revealed that there are some sensible rangers who actually acknowledge wizards raid dilemma, the majority of them seem to be drama queens that will invent any type of warped arguments to resist a boost of other DPS classes. <BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>To be even-handed about it, you have your fair share of drama queens in your own class. But you have it backwards, by and large most of the rangers who are active on these forums are a sensible bunch. In a sad flame-war like this, you get the people that join flame-wars. Big surprise, eh? Some are hotheaded and as soon as they hear that we've been mentioned on a wizard's thread about DPS, they jump to conclusions, assume you're asking for us to be nerfed, and they go on the defensive and start flaming. Frankly, I'm pretty disappointed in those folks as they undermine everything that the more constructive, sensible rangers try to do in situations like these. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm guessing that the majority of us in the ranger world have NO problem with wizards and warlocks doing the same damage that we do, or even doing more damage. Why should we care? Seriously - what difference does it make to us what kind of DPS you can do? We're doing good damage, we're in line with the expectations of our class, and that's enough. We've never been a community that regularly compares our class to another (with the possible exception of our assassin counterparts, b/c that's a more direct relationship) to highlight our problems. Besides, it's in our best interests that all DPS classes function as intended anyway. None of us in our right minds really want your damage to be less than ours. We don't have a 'king of the hill' mindset when it comes to the DPS hierarchy - as long as we're in the top tier where we belong, I think we're happy. </DIV>

[Mentla]

<div></div>Any of you wizards get your a55es handed to you by Grey heriocs?  None of the wizzes I know do: http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=39&message.id=16057 Thoughts?  Or is what you saying that - shock, horror - once a player hits 50 he becomes 'quite tough'? <div></div><p>Message Edited by Mentla on <span class=date_text>12-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:05 PM</span>

[Crychtonn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> QQFatman wrote:<BR> <DIV>Wizards' problems are mostly IN RAID! ... not in solo, and rarely in exp group.<BR> <BR>Main problems:<BR>1. Mana:<BR>   We run out of mana too fast (usually no longer than 2 minutes if we chain cast.) And if we dont have mana, we dont have dps - zero dps! Sorcerers are the only dps classes that dont have any free attacks (auto-attacks or pets.)<BR> <BR>   Solution: reduce our spell mana cost and greatly improve our sefl hp->mana conversion spells. Also we would be happy if we can pay some gold for a mana free attack like scout's poison.<BR> <BR>2. Aggro:<BR>   Scouts have de-taunts, summoners have pets to share aggro, but we have nothing. Even when we have mana, we cant do the samd dps as scouts or we will get killed.<BR> <BR>   Solution: greatly improve our mail of frost. Reduce its recast time to one minute (it's not 15 mins, which makes it useless.) Make it works like scouts detaunts so we dont have to be hit to reduce hate.<BR> <BR>Other problems:<BR>1. Immune:<BR>   Though this is much better in DoF than it was in the old world, it's still a problem. We have mostly heat spells and only few magic and cold ones. It is very bad for us to fight heat immune mobs. And there are still some heat + cold immune mobs.<BR> <BR>   Solution: give us some cold nukes (they can be on the same timer to our heat spells.) Remove those stupid elemental (heat + cold) immune mobs.<BR> <BR>2. Cast time:<BR>   While all melee classes had their CA cast time reduced in DoF, we got our cast time increased. In exp group, our target is often dead before we get our long cast spells out (especially those AE DoTvs. no arrow mobs.)<BR> <BR>   Solution: reduce spell cast time. Single target nukes shouldnt be longer than 2sec, AE shoudlnt be longer than 3sec. DoT cast time should be shorter than dds.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Great post with some very good idea's for solutions.  One small correction is on the cast times.  Melee attacks are the ones that got the short to instant cast times.  Most of the ranged attack skills had their timers increased.</P> <P> </P>

[Joos]

<P>What a bunch of whiners, if you really want to see low dps play a healer, my level 60 Inquisitor was running thru Nek Forrest grouped with a level 11 Preditor to help him thru the zone and got jumped; you know what happed?</P> <P>I thought I would just nuke down these level 25+ Heroic mobs, to my surprise I was not killing them very fast, a couple mins go by and I have the first one down to half health, mind you there are several Heroic groups on me and of course I am not taking any damage, after about 5 min I realized this was going to be a very long fight and rezed the poor little guy I was trying to help and just ran the mobs off.</P> <P>I have grouped with several Rangers and Wizards and as far as I can see neither class has anything to complain about concernig dps. </P> <P>Try playing a class that has a full quest journal because it takes way to long to finish solo quests let a lone make any decent coin soloing.</P> <P>You have know idea how redicules this post sounds to a class that has a max situational dps of 100, shut up!!!</P> <P> </P>

[massem]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Joosul wrote:<BR> <P>What a bunch of whiners, if you really want to see low dps play a healer, my level 60 Inquisitor was running thru Nek Forrest grouped with a level 11 Preditor to help him thru the zone and got jumped; you know what happed?</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Hehe - in a bad mood today Joosul ? :smileyhappy:</DIV>

[NightGod473]

I've played a healer-I started this game as a Templar, got him to 30ish. There's a reason I no longer play as a healer class. You're missing the point, however. Healers are not supposed to be a DPS class (though I agree they need better DPS than they have now), Wizards are. On a typical raid, you see healers healing and wizards nuking. All we are asking for is to be brought back up into the Tier 1 DPS while on raids. Coming here and telling us to "shut up because healer DPS *really* sucks" is as useful as me going to the templar boards and telling them to "shut up because wizard healing *really* sucks". <div></div>

[Gareorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> masseman wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR></SPAN><SPAN>Although the posts on these has revealed that there are some sensible rangers who actually acknowledge wizards raid dilemma, the majority of them seem to be drama queens that will invent any type of warped arguments to resist a boost of other DPS classes. I will give them the benefit of the doubt and attribute it to ignorance rather than malevolence. Probably they have seen a wizard root-nuke solo a heroic mobs and figure we must be ok<SPAN>:smileyhappy:</SPAN>. <BR></SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You couldn't be more more wrong.  The majority of Rangers are sensible and wouldn't bother reading this thread if the OP hadn't been trolling the Ranger forums.  We worked very hard at getting our class fixed and expect you to do the same for your class.  I don't play a wizard, so I'm taking your word that it's broke.  The only thing that I know for sure about wizards is that when I group with one, my DPS goes through the roof.   Hypothesize all you want, but it seems odd that a class responsible for increasing overall DPS of the entire group is complaining that other classes have too much DPS.</P> <P>You want to lower my DPS?  Fine, then don't buff me.  That problem is solved.  Now go work on your raid issues, but please do it with the Devs.  Trolling the Ranger forums doesn't help anything.  It only brings trouble.  And drama queens?  Please...  The Ranger forums are proabably the least dramatic of all the class threads.</P> <P>I find it hard to believe the Mods have let this go this far.</P><p>Message Edited by Gareorn on <span class=date_text>12-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:35 AM</span>

[DyeHa]

<P>Coming from someone who plays a wizzy, warlock, ranger, and swashy:</P> <P>Scouts have BURST DPS....which means we own! for about 15 seconds....then we have to wait awhile for our CAs to catch up. My Wizzy does crazy damage consistently throughout the battle without lulls.</P> <P>Scouts Poisons have ALOT to do with our DPS...you can say...at higher levels, my swashy depends on poisons EXCLUSIVELY to even come close to my wizzy DPS. But alot of scouts have gotten smart and are now using rare Legendary poisons. This is kind of like the same thing as getting Master I DOTS for a wizzy. But instead of it being a spell....its a 25% chance Proc. A good Swashy will have dual weapons with Procs on them, 2 different Poisons up, and a few Haste Items (FBSS and Ancient Watchers ring, ect.). </P> <P>The 2nd thing is, alot of our attacks are positional, so if we really want to land those sweet high damage attacks....we need someone to hold agro on our target...or depend on Stuns and invisi. This takes alot more skill in maneuvering, and if its a multi mob we're soloing...forget it. A Wizzy can get interrupted, but with my AoE Root and my Nukes (which are not positional). I can own mobs all the time.</P> <P>3rd thing is this: There are TWO kinds of damage dealers in EQ, Melee and Casters. Don't you think TOP DPS should be awarded to BOTH sides of the damage barrier? Scouts get better mitigation and avoidance because our CAs demand that we be up close and in their face (with the exception of some ranger/assassin CAs) and wizzies get less avoidance and mitigation because their spells are cast from afar and you get an entire line of spells to make SURE they stay far away from you.</P> <P>Lastly: Wizzies get resists and immunes to their spells. Scouts get mobs all the time that are peirce/slash/ immune, or poison immune. AND alot of mobs are immune/resist our poisons at high levels UNLESS they are Legendary Poisons....so we are forced to upgrade (in certain situations). So you see, the DPS is fair. The classes just demand different techniques. Everyone knows Nukers (wizzy/warlock) and Scouts (Ranger/Assassin) are supposed to be the Pure class bad @#%$ DPS people. Why worry about it?</P>

[massem]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gareorn wrote:<BR> <P>You couldn't be more more wrong.  The majority of Rangers are sensible and wouldn't bother reading this thread if the OP hadn't been trolling the Ranger forums.  We worked very hard at getting our class fixed and expect you to do the same for your class.  I don't play a wizard, so I'm taking your word that it's broke.  The only thing that I know for sure about wizards is that when I group with one, my DPS goes through the roof.   Hypothesize all you want, but it seems odd that a class responsible for increasing overall DPS of the entire group is complaining that other classes have too much DPS.</P> <P>You want to lower my DPS?  Fine, then don't buff me.  That problem is solved.  Now go work on your raid issues, but please do it with the Devs.  Trolling the Ranger forums doesn't help anything.  It only brings trouble.  And drama queens?  Please...  The Ranger forums are proabably the least dramatic of all the class threads.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Again noone is out to lower Ranger DPS - we wizards wants to have ours fixed - not others' broken. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Mentla]

<span><blockquote><hr>DyeHard wrote:<p>Coming from someone who plays a wizzy, warlock, ranger, and swashy:</p> <p>Scouts have BURST DPS....which means we own! for about 15 seconds....then we have to wait awhile for our CAs to catch up. My Wizzy does crazy damage consistently throughout the battle without lulls.</p><hr></blockquote>Have to agree - grouped and raided with wizzys over the weekend.  ACTUAL QUOTE from one of them "lol, no way I should be out DPSing a ranger [sic] like this!" Fact is, you guys - played well - do OBSCENE amounts of damage and are a credit to any group.  Why the hell you want to nerf us is beyond me!  I was consistently out DPSed and I've got everthing at Adp level and fantastic bow!</span><div></div>

[Ahlspiess]

OP seems to be lumping all scouts together. Assassins can take a ^^^ heroic about <b>10 levels below them</b> there is no way we could even think  about fighting a heroic mob anywhere near what a wizard is capable of.  As for our invisibility 50% of our attacks are stealth  and 75 % of our attacks are positional lets see you try to fight a mob when they keep  turning and negating your positional attacks.  The only  way  to  counter it is to use the 2 second stun we have... wow 2 seconds...<div></div>

[Rahmn]

<P>A little enlightenment for some of you.  During your average raid, about 3 hours, I spend 50g on poisons.   Lets take a couple different type of raids.  First, Silent City...mostly single mobs and some small groups.  Here I will be on top 6 of DPS everytime, along with our necros, wizards, conjurors and the ocasionaly zerker. Usually I average about 450-500 dps, if I have enough time to use Sniper Shot.  Next lets look at something like the Return to Poets Palace raid, lots of huge groups of mobs.  Here, I'm almost never in the top 6 of DPS, which is led by Warlocks, Wizards, conjurors and our paladin MT:smileysurprised: .  Here the top DPS was about 1.5k, <EM>1500 DPS</EM>.  With the rest easily over 1000 and the pally with 800ish dps.  </P> <P>DPS is situational, with a variety of factors affecting who will be on top.  Lets not call for the nerf bat for anyone just because the top .001% of a certain class can solo named heroics or is puting out 1000 dps in a raid</P> <P> </P>

[NightGod473]

<div></div><font color="#cc0000"><font size="6"><font size="7">WE DON'T WANT SCOUTS NERFED, WE WANT WIZARD RAID DPS FIXED!!!</font> <font color="#000000"><font size="4"><font size="2"><font color="#ffffff">Sorry about that, it seemed that the point wasn't sinking in, hopefully this will be large enough of a notice to help with that. We'll ignore the one or two trolls who are posting form the scout forums and acting like morons if you'll kindly do the same with the one or two wizards who are foolishly calling for a nerf on scouts. None of the reasonable wizard here want anyone nerfed, we are only seeking fixes for our class and using another class as an example of what we feel is working for them and broken for us and pointing to that as where we hope to end up. And for the record, most wizards would have NO problem with there being a equivalent financial cost to go along with our boost in DPS, so please stop mentioning that-we get it already and are willing to accept it for us if that is waht it takes to get things fixed. </font></font> </font></font></font></font><div></div><p>Message Edited by NightGod473 on <span class=date_text>12-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:09 PM</span>

[Crychtonn]

<P>Just a heads up.  Looks like the Dev's finally got around to helping the casters some with the new loot tables.  They finally added at least one armor item that has a proc that goes off on successful spell attacks rather then melee attacks.  Forget the name as another guild looted it.  But it is a mage hat that drops from the Shimmering Citadel raid zone.  My guild cleared the entire raid zone but wasn't lucky enough to get one to drop.  The proc rate was 10% but the damage I'm unsure of as I was on my scout when it was linked not my conj.</P> <P>Now if they'd only change yours and the priest prismatic's to proc the same way you'd have a good step in the right direction.  I know my conj would love to have his prismatic proc off spells :smileywink:</P> <P> </P>

[Mentla]

<span><blockquote><hr>Crychtonn wrote:<p>Just a heads up.  Looks like the Dev's finally got around to helping the casters some with the new loot tables.  They finally added at least one armor item that has a proc that goes off on successful spell attacks rather then melee attacks.  Forget the name as another guild looted it.  But it is a mage hat that drops from the Shimmering Citadel raid zone.  My guild cleared the entire raid zone but wasn't lucky enough to get one to drop.  The proc rate was 10% but the damage I'm unsure of as I was on my scout when it was linked not my conj.</p> <p>Now if they'd only change yours and the priest prismatic's to proc the same way you'd have a good step in the right direction.  I know my conj would love to have his prismatic proc off spells :smileywink:</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>This is excellent news!  I have a Conj, and at present 99% of the time she gets right in there with AA firing on the off chance of a proc.  If I didn't need to do this and risk getting hit by AoE it would deff be a step in the right direction.  (be cool if it was a propper wizards pointy hat!!) Now all we need is for me to be able to make them as a tailor!  (have you noticed that hardly any of the things us tailors can make have INT?  What the point of that?!)</span><div></div>

[Zaviur]

Seems like this thread is all over the place.  People say scouts are this and rangers are that and vice versa.  The thing that a lot of you all are missing is the fact that scouts compliment each other very well.  Bards bring up ranger and assassin dps like you wouldn't beleive in a raid add in the fact that they come with an additional agro reducer and that just rocks.  With swashy's and brigands bringing near Predator dps with debuffs and buffs they rock as well.  So under ideal conditions scouts do very well.  BUT how often do scouts get ideal conditions?  Add in Cone AE, AOE all of which INT casters never have to worry about yet casters don't hardly ever worry about.  Yes I do raid alot yes I do damage in the top three most targets but we are in a group that is as ideal as possible because of the way we built guild.  But put me in a single exp group and mages, wizards, and Rouges will sometimes out parse me.  A lot of this game is about being in an idea situation and you have to make it for yourself.  I have yet to have a wizard say hey Mr. Ranger use this 500 Cold debuff for me so that I can hit harder.  A lot of you say yeah I would buy an item to help me dps but when was the last time you did that?  Most Scouts only use poison that dot or DD.  Use the scouts to your advantage you're not as broken as you think you are.   

[Mentla]

<span><blockquote>Zaviur wrote:A lot of you say yeah I would buy an item to help me dps but when was the last time you did that?  Most Scouts only use poison that dot or DD. <div></div><hr></blockquote></span>....have to buy arrows too....... <div></div>

[Tar~Palantir]

Wizard's shouldn't have to put in lots of work to be top DPS.  We are supposed to ahve that position by default.  First we had warlocks outdoing us, now scouts?  Because many of the scouts I met are nice people, I hope they stay where they are, and us wizards gets a boost.

[Zaviur]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tar~Palantir wrote:<BR>Wizard's shouldn't have to put in lots of work to be top DPS.  We are supposed to ahve that position by default.  First we had warlocks outdoing us, now scouts?  Because many of the scouts I met are nice people, I hope they stay where they are, and us wizards gets a boost. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>NO one should be the Top Anything by default to have a great toon I mean a GREAT toon you have to work at it.  You have to upgrade your skills increase your primary stats,  know what other classes will compliment your dps or your mana regen, Know who can debuff the mob properly,  Know the mobs weakness and strength and go into it having a game plan if you want a class that is going to play somewhat the same every single fight maybe you should try a healer.  But int casters take a bit of thinking to play you just can't show up and act like a monkey hitting a button and expect to be the top dps each and every time this game just isn't set up to be played that way and if you think it is or should be I'd find that insulting.

[Admh]

<DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>WE LOST!</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Scouts/Brawlers are dual wielding prismatics which are 26pow/tick. and are able to hit 60+ mobs. Our prizzy 2 staff is a 2hs, 14pow/tick. That right there is a low blow for us. With this much regen then go all out dps without worrying about mana probs. I see rangers/Assassins burning 40% or their pwr pool and still doubles my damage output in a epic x4 single target mob, whereas, i'm here leeching myself to death with my 400+ power costs  a3 and m1 spells!!</DIV>

[massem]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Admhel wrote:<div><font color="#ff0000">WE LOST!</font></div> <div> </div> <div>Scouts/Brawlers are dual wielding prismatics which are 26pow/tick. and are able to hit 60+ mobs. Our prizzy 2 staff is a 2hs, 14pow/tick. That right there is a low blow for us. With this much regen then go all out dps without worrying about mana probs. I see rangers/Assassins burning 40% or their pwr pool and still doubles my damage output in a epic x4 single target mob, whereas, i'm here leeching myself to death with my 400+ power costs  a3 and m1 spells!!</div><hr></blockquote>This is an observation I made as well and is a true sign of exactly how broken the Wizard is on raids. In groups, fights never last long enough to notice this but more or less every raid is like this when the final fight is a single or double target boss.  Power costs of our spells must go down and casting times must be reduced, until then Wizards are BROKEN on raids. Even though we got a small boost DPS-wise by the combat revampe we are actually much worse off now, because of the power shortage problems on raids. Before we had much better mana conversion spells and much more effective power feeds we could use to have a secondary role as manapumps.  I think the problems we have is that the devs do  not really think much about the caster classes, but if they do - they must hate casters<span>:smileyhappy:</span> </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by masseman on <span class=date_text>12-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:08 AM</span>

[Admh]

<P>manadumps? [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] u talking about.. my m1 essential intromission only pumps out 174 power/20 secs!!</P> <P>That's not enough for an Ice Comet. Mind you this is a master spell.. and only has a 22power upgrade from an a3 manadump! At least give it some boost! like 700'ish or something. In addition, Give us a manashield spell, that uses our pwr pool as a ward for incoming 1 shot kill attacks from epic x4's instead of a direct HP attack cuz Mail of Frost ain't worth a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. that 400-600 ward isn't enough to withstand an incoming 5k attack from a mob with my our crappy >20% mitigation.</P>

[NightGod473]

Did you actually read his message Admhel? He was agreeing with you and saying that mana dumps *used* to be good... <div></div>

[Admh]

of course, I'm not disagreeing with him.. cuz we lost one of our dump spells, but for us to have 1 mana dump with only >174 power transfer  now is utterly ridiculous.