Paladin as the raid MT... who should be in your team?

[Excalibre33]

So, I graduated to raid MT recently (as many paladins have since upgrading amends to Adept3). My guild is plenty big enough that we have a good mix of mostly every class... I'm curious what classes (assuming level 60) you would put in the MT team.

 

We've tried a few combos but I'm wondering what the rest of you are finding to be the BEST Paladin MT team.

 

I've been pretty happy with:

Paladin (MT /flex)

Mystic (More wards please)

Templar (...'nuffsaid)

Conjurer or Warlock (Need a threat ninja to wear Amends and make Sig useful)

Dirge (Buff me baby and increase my threat)

Last spot depends on the target... I typically like another tank for mit buffs /shru

Message Edited by Excalibre3377 on 12-05-2005 08:40 PM

[marder]

I am also sometimes MT on Raids, when we need Max DPS to get a Mob down fast.

 

The best Grp für a Pally MT, if you want Max DPS for your whole Raid is in my opinion.

 

 

--- Paladin        

--- Guardian                  [HP and Mitigation]

--- Defiler                      [Mass HP and Wards] I think Defilers are better than Mystic

--- Templer / Inquisitior [just to have him]

--- Dirge                        [Buffs]

--- Ranger/ Brigand      [Highest DPS [Rang] with Low Mana Cost [Stream of Arrows], or the Brigand, nice backstabbing without taking AOE DMG]

 

 

 

 

Message Edited by marder on 12-05-2005 09:10 PM

[hylozoist]

I find that healers get rotated a huge amount really because so many mobs ae (although usually it is fire, cold, or poison).  Since druids have the highest fire/cold resist buffs, they usually find a spot.  The fury porcupine spell tends to be a staple, since it's a mitigation buff, even though it has a short duration. 

[MeridianR]

A lot of people use the below + specific to the encounter adds: Guardian Dirge Cleric (Inquisitor or Templar) Shaman (Mystic or Defiler)

[hylozoist]

Was just browing around, and I think this post I just read pretty much encompasses my thoughts:

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=71448

[WAPCE]

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hylozoist wrote:

Was just browing around, and I think this post I just read pretty much encompasses my thoughts:

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=71448

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I agree with that post, with the conjurer periodically swapped out for a resist-specific mage or sometimes another healer, depending on the mob.

Unfortunately, having the Paladin tank in that group is going to make the group far from optimal, because while we would benefit from the Guardian's HP and Defense buffs, we'll be missing out on the Armament line that we'd normally put on the Guardian (Pledge of Armament M1 is +425 mitigation, effectively a free 8th piece of T6 fabled armor, and mitigation is still king). Adding a second Crusader to get that big mitigation boost or swapping one for the Guardian and losing his buffs will distort the group even further.

[MeridianR]

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WAPCE wrote:

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hylozoist wrote:

Was just browing around, and I think this post I just read pretty much encompasses my thoughts:

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=71448

---

I agree with that post, with the conjurer periodically swapped out for a resist-specific mage or sometimes another healer, depending on the mob. Unfortunately, having the Paladin tank in that group is going to make the group far from optimal, because while we would benefit from the Guardian's HP and Defense buffs, we'll be missing out on the Armament line that we'd normally put on the Guardian (Pledge of Armament M1 is +425 mitigation, effectively a free 8th piece of T6 fabled armor, and mitigation is still king). Adding a second Crusader to get that big mitigation boost or swapping one for the Guardian and losing his buffs will distort the group even further.

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Exaclty, all things being equal why would a Paladin ever tank when a Guardian is in the group. There is no reason to at all.   Personally why would a Paladin be used in the MT group over a Shadowknight (if one is available either). We buff Str and Wisdom, while a SK buffs Str and Stamina......with resists being capped easily with potions, or certain classes, our 36 (Crusade Adept 3) Wisdom is <  a SK's 162 HP buff from Stamina.

[Excalibre33]

Wow that's funny... that poster found nearly the same MT team that I did ROFL... I think I'm on to something. Only Guardian or SK is normally my backup/buffer.

A few other things on this... I sometimes replace the second tank with a Fury and the DPSer with whoever is the top of the DPS parser in the raid. Some classes do better than others against certain targets so I find my Amends monkey changes depending on the target. Some runs I even add our mezzer to my team if I find them sitting at the top of the aggro list.

I'm not concerned with having a bunch of DPS in my MT team just the ability to keep the MT at the top of the threat list and to survive the massive AEs. I typically would choose another buffer for the MT team over a DPSer unless mit, health and resists are maxed. DPSers can operate just as efficient totally independent of the MT team. I typically try to spread the DPS and the heals out among the other teams and direct the other Paladins to the 'big-gun teams to whittle down their top DPSer's threat.

We're having some success lately on raids we previously would get 'pwned on.

[MeridianR]

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Excalibre3377 wrote:

Wow that's funny... that poster found nearly the same MT team that I did ROFL... I think I'm on to something. Only Guardian or SK is normally my backup/buffer.

A few other things on this... I sometimes replace the second tank with a Fury and the DPSer with whoever is the top of the DPS parser in the raid. Some classes do better than others against certain targets so I find my Amends monkey changes depending on the target. Some runs I even add our mezzer to my team if I find them sitting at the top of the aggro list.

I'm not concerned with having a bunch of DPS in my MT team just the ability to keep the MT at the top of the threat list and to survive the massive AEs. I typically would choose another buffer for the MT team over a DPSer unless mit, health and resists are maxed. DPSers can operate just as efficient totally independent of the MT team. I typically try to spread the DPS and the heals out among the other teams and direct the other Paladins to the 'big-gun teams to whittle down their top DPSer's threat.

We're having some success lately on raids we previously would get 'pwned on.

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Dirge in the MT group with Hate song on us + Amends on the Dirge (who does decent damage)  >  Sticking a Fury or other DPS class in the MT group

[Excalibre33]

As for optimal MT team comparing PaladinGuardian'ZerkSK... There are plenty of threads with a ton of opinions and comparisons of the classes. There's been a ton of work done by the community to identify the best MT. But we've got to admit there's a bit more to the art of MT than number crunching and flexing. Some of it is personality... some skill... a lot of the time it's availablity in my guild. /wink

 

I know I'm not the only Paladin that's found themselves in the MT role and with this thread I'm focused on the idea of a Paladin as the MT. I find that a Guardian as a backup has even more benifit than his buff lines. Intercepting a few hits here or there without getting himself dead can effectively give us 2 health bars to play with. Way better than 400 more mit most of the time IMHO. /shrug

 

I'm full of boobery on a daily basis... so don't take my opinions for law especially since my opinions about this game are as dynamic the game itself.

[Excalibre33]

Definetly... the dirge never leaves my team. Only I find that the dirge dosen't create the most hate so Amends gets placed on the raids 'big-gun just to keep things simple. ;]

Message Edited by Excalibre3377 on 12-06-2005 08:36 AM

[Jonaroth]

I hear a lot of people put amends of the conjurer/necro or dirge/troub in thier group.. but what about the other tank giving you mitt? When I MT in raids I always put it on the zerker/guardian/SK whos buffing me, i tell them to taunt like crazy and a guardian/zerker who is taunting can get me much more hate than any conjurer or dirge could ever do

[Anzak]

The problem I have noticed with putting amends on another tank class is some raid mobs seem to ignore the hate transfer if the hate if from a taunt.  I did some testing on this.  Rognog for example I tried putting amends on a monk with dragon stance up.  She pulled agro from me all over the place and I was working my butt off to get it back.  We later did some grouping and did the exact same thing.  A single taunt was enough to hold agro for a good 40-50 seconds or basically the time it took for her DPS to make up the 9% difference of a single taunt.

[Dart]

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MeridianR wrote:

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WAPCE wrote:

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hylozoist wrote:

Was just browing around, and I think this post I just read pretty much encompasses my thoughts:

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=71448

---

I agree with that post, with the conjurer periodically swapped out for a resist-specific mage or sometimes another healer, depending on the mob.

Unfortunately, having the Paladin tank in that group is going to make the group far from optimal, because while we would benefit from the Guardian's HP and Defense buffs, we'll be missing out on the Armament line that we'd normally put on the Guardian (Pledge of Armament M1 is +425 mitigation, effectively a free 8th piece of T6 fabled armor, and mitigation is still king). Adding a second Crusader to get that big mitigation boost or swapping one for the Guardian and losing his buffs will distort the group even further.

---

Exaclty, all things being equal why would a Paladin ever tank when a Guardian is in the group. There is no reason to at all.   Personally why would a Paladin be used in the MT group over a Shadowknight (if one is available either).

We buff Str and Wisdom, while a SK buffs Str and Stamina......with resists being capped easily with potions, or certain classes, our 36 (Crusade Adept 3) Wisdom is <  a SK's 162 HP buff from Stamina.

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Actually there is a very good reason.... Agro... Our guild MT is a paly, and many times they will put me in the group for a few reasons. many of the Epic encounters have adds attached to the named. As a warlock I can help to lock agro down on all of them for the paly while they are being stunned/stifled/silenced. Warlocks have an AE Dot that intterupts each tick, we also have AE stun, and well uno about or DPS. The other benifit is mana transfer, although the warlocks mana transfer is minimal at best, at times it can make or break the raid (Lich anyone).

Is this the optimal set up? prolly not, but it has worked for us so far. Sometimes we will swap out me for a single target DPS class depending on target, but even on solo targets Warlocks a can generate hate via other methods other than DPS, wont elaborate). The minor difference in Mit between a guard and paly can be compensated in other ways (MT tricks) sorry not gonna share Yoda masters secrets :p

Anyhow just want to show not all guilds use Guards for MT's. I think the majority of the ones that do, already had a guard as MT, they were geared, had play time at MT role so they are attuned to it, and perception still plays a large part in it as well. Anyhow thats abotu it, just wanted to post how we have been handling raids/MT.

Side note: One of our guards came back (Had maybe one stick with it post LU13), and hes now closing in on 60, so we will most likely rotate our paly and guard to get them both experience and see how they differ on different types of mobs.

 

[XskullbusterX]

Im always in the MT group .... usually the MT group works like this ... and never really have a problem..

 

- Guardian (MT)

- Paladin (Off tank - Wards , mit buff , str wis buff,  (our ward at adept 3 is just as good as a 1k heal every 10 seconds)&nbsp

- Cleric (ussualy Templar)

- Shaman (ussualy Defiler)

- Assasin (agro for Guardian) - a lot of guilds are starting to do this

- Dirge (Buffs)

 

There isnt many times when im not in the MT group and to be honest just about everything we come across we are able to keep the MT up .... Our wards are just as good as a heal every 10 seconds....  along with Mit buff and Str and Wis buff... our MT is maxed out on Stamina so not much he really needs for a SK .... 

 

But i agree with Phov ... if theres a MT ... no reason for us to be MT ... with all there new skills, just cruddy for us.

[Excalibre33]

Let's pretend like there is a guild without any guardians or berserkers left... Let's pretend that all of the guild's warriors got fed up after LU13 and are now playing other games that still have use for tank classes outside of raiding or they've stuck with EQ2 and rolled up a, now low to mid 50s, Sorcerer or Summoner or Predator as they've not had to stop XPing since the expansion launched and it sickens them to play their warrior. (true story)

Let's pretend the guild is stuck with Paladin and SK tanks or their highlevel guardians are all n00bs that bought someone's abandoned account within the last month...

So here we are with a Paladin as the MT because they have higher stats or are more experianced than the possible guardians in the guild. Now how do we 'twink that Paladin that's found themselves as the raid MT?

[XskullbusterX]

This isnt fiction this is reality lol .... we would be able to hold agro but lets face it .... if we dont get double the heals .. we will probably go down since we dont have the HP that a guardian does... SOE ... needs to fix that .. yes we have the most POWER but with the cost of our spells ... that doesnt last long ....  Vanguard Pallies are looking really good right now

[GidionSWE]

I usually dont MT but..In one of our many silent city visits when our MT (a zerk) was missing we found i held hate alot better then the Guardian over the course of time (he ofcourse can outdo me occasionally when his arts are up) and thats prefered there since ure chainpulling...and thats with amends on the guardian..it worked rly well imho.

 

 

[MeridianR]

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XskullbusterX wrote:

Im always in the MT group .... usually the MT group works like this ... and never really have a problem..

 

- Guardian (MT)

- Paladin (Off tank - Wards , mit buff , str wis buff,  (our ward at adept 3 is just as good as a 1k heal every 10 seconds)&nbsp

- Cleric (ussualy Templar)

- Shaman (ussualy Defiler)

- Assasin (agro for Guardian) - a lot of guilds are starting to do this

- Dirge (Buffs)

 

There isnt many times when im not in the MT group and to be honest just about everything we come across we are able to keep the MT up .... Our wards are just as good as a heal every 10 seconds....  along with Mit buff and Str and Wis buff... our MT is maxed out on Stamina so not much he really needs for a SK .... 

 

But i agree with Phov ... if theres a MT ... no reason for us to be MT ... with all there new skills, just cruddy for us.

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Murderous Design (Master 1) + Hyran's Seething Sonata = Guardians keeping aggro better then Paladins....

[Supernova17]

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marder wrote:

I am also sometimes MT on Raids

--- Templer / Inquisitior [just to have him]

 

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................................. Templars buff more HP and Mitigtion than any other Priest as well has having the most in group healing utility of any Priest (why we such crappy dps =P ) as well as having Stoneskin. Please respect your Templar for doing a good job, we are not a broken class. :smileywink:

[Anzak]

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XskullbusterX wrote:This isnt fiction this is reality lol .... we would be able to hold agro but lets face it .... if we dont get double the heals .. we will probably go down since we dont have the HP that a guardian does... SOE ... needs to fix that .. yes we have the most POWER but with the cost of our spells ... that doesnt last long ....  Vanguard Pallies are looking really good right now

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That is odd because in the same group set up with about the same gear was able to get about 100 more HP than the guard that was 2 levels higher than me.  I think I had an edge in the gear but not by a lot.  I also had about 200 more mit than he did.

[Excalibre33]

Ohh to heck with it. Go roll a Guardian and please stop posting in this thread. You'll have plenty to complain about with your new toon. I personally don't care why Guardians are better MTs and to be honest I have a guardian toon as well as a 40ish zerker. Heck the zerker was my original main until I rolled my Paladin.

I find my Pally to be much more marketable and fun to play than either of my warriors. I personally find nothing wrong with Paladins as the main tank... In many ways I completely disagree with the Paladin bashing responses in our boards. I just don't understand how this thread could be twisted so negatively against Paladins being the raid MT here. Some of us seem to overlook some of our obvious perks and class defining advantages... the extra 2500ish hp we have every 15 minutes or our wards or our three heals. I don't seem to have a problem with power and I can chain cast my ward for 10 minutes at least. So I have to have my guildee make me some regen toties and equip every item I can that gives me power... I even smack myself with the manastone quite a bit (typically your vitaes get wasted otherwise ;p)... Yea the raid may need a little down time between pulls to recoup but I'm not the only one in the raid needing a little bluebar attention after a 10-15 minute fight.

If nothing else I find it more thrilling to be a Paladin MT than being a warrior MT. I like that there is a different way to tank than just sitting there and being the anvil. If no more Paladins agree that we may have a spot as the raid MT, please lock this thread. The bashing is putting a growl in my brow.

[Excalibre33]

And as for the fiction comment... I certainly wish this wasn't the case... We've lost quite a few high level warriors and our leading MT candidates over the last few months (thus my promotion)... one is playing WoW... one is now a 54 Warlock after abandoning his main toon... In fact we only have one 50+ Guardian left... but he doesn't have much raiding experience and is hardly ever on anymore. Our SKs and Paladins are just a bit better candidates stat wise atm. I wouldn't be surprised if our only remaining guardian claims MT when he beefs up a bit and I'd step down for the greater good if he does a better job but, we're haveing some good success in our raids now and are not hurting with my Paladin on point.

[Excalibre33]

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Supernova17 wrote:

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marder wrote:

I am also sometimes MT on Raids

--- Templer / Inquisitior [just to have him]

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.................................

Templars buff more HP and Mitigtion than any other Priest as well has having the most in group healing utility of any Priest (why we such crappy dps =P ) as well as having Stoneskin. Please respect your Templar for doing a good job, we are not a broken class. :smileywink:

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Hey now... I lub my templar (my RL wife has a 60 templar that I bot and play occasionally when she's not available). I think that a Templar is another cornerstone of the MT team.

So let's see...  Templar and Dirge are a must... what else?

[XskullbusterX]

Hmmm Anzak i would really like to know what your wearing .... due to our class already having lower HP than other tank classes and Guardians having the highest ... i wanna know how you beat that gap and still had more than he did .... was he in same group ... was he recieving the same buffs as you ... if he was then theres no question he should be getting way more HP than us.  if your gear was totally superior than his .... than that could be a big thing also .... give us some detail man ..

 

 

Yes Phovio is right MD master and dirges hate song = Guardian never loosing agro .... so Paladins with Amends ... well they found something better :  /sigh

[Anzak]

I'm in full cobalt with Vanadium jeweler minus 2 items.  I have Thunderstone Amulet that Drops off of Vox and Creeping Cuffs.  I have T5 STR and STA +12 Hex dolls looking to get a +13 STA to replace the STR one.  Raid buffed I'm at 3900 Mit with 8600 HP.  Oh that is with Ironwood shield, cobalt tablet and Prismatic LS.  I get a bit better when I go with a cobalt weapon but I like the power regen on the Prismatic most of the time.

[XskullbusterX]

Geez and the guardians wearing ? .... not bad gear ... if your mostly the MT ... i would suggest to your guild to make sure your the first MT geared ... for instance im full T6 fabled  ...  but our guardian is also Full T6 fabled ... and with the same buffs i do there is no way .. ill ever pass him in HP or Mit ... ive had my mit well over 4k in MT group but his is maxxed out .... so he has 70% mit and resists can be buffed with potions and gear .... and other buffs ... so hes sitting a lot higher than us atm .... thats why im off tank .... but hey we all know it takes SKILL to play a paladin and anyone can be a guardian ....  there just a piece of meat right

[Anzak]

Not entirely sure on the guards gear it changes from day to day.  He has a crimson rock targe which I think he traded up for a Ironwood Tower shield.   I know he has a Immovable Barburute.  Bracers of the shattering and his boots are treasured.  and T6 fabled gloves.  I don't know how is jeweler looks.  I do know that when I inspect him and see his mit and HP lower than mine I scratch my head sometimes.  Not to mention he has a few items I know he had cobalt before but he seems to have taken a step down on.

[germanicus2112]

Your guardian needs an intervention, you guys arent maximizing your potential.

[XskullbusterX]

Ya ... your not .. hes not doing something right ... you def need him to get some help ... thanks for the info Anzak