SK vs Pala

moorie27 · 03-26-2005, 11:44 PM

Hi there goodie goodie Paladin folk!

My name is Ogrim Ironhand, Im a level 42 Ogre Shadow Knight

What I have seen:

Every time ive grouped with Paladins ive done more dmg by a long shot.

Many people have told me that they dont like having pala's as main tank in groups coz they cant hold agro very well.

Im yet to see a pala solo blue^^ mobs SK's ive seen solo white^^ (i do blues myself).

What I have heard:

Paladins can solo anything at high lvls.

Your heals own and you can play main healer in a pinch.

Paladins are more sort after for groups than SK's.

Your DD's do more dmg?

Your Big heal is better than the SK harm touch?

Just wanted to know what you guys think about Paladins vs Shadow Knights?

Who tanks best?

Who does more dmg?

Who is most useful in a group?

etc... etc...

(Im not trying to rant about SK's nor am I trying to Flame Pala's)

Ogrim Ironhand.

http://eq2players.station.sony.com/pplayer.vm?characterId=177605115

Wurm · 03-27-2005, 05:12 AM

No idea... haven't been around enough SKs to be able to form an opinion.

I soloed ^^blue tonight with little to no problem.

I have no problem keeping agro if the group isn't screwing around and if someone messes up it takes me but a click to get the agro back on me.

*shrug*

I really have no idea what your point is.

Its the player not the class 99% of the time.

moorie27 · 03-27-2005, 06:23 AM

No point really other than trying to find out what you guys are about.

Like you I havnt had the chance to play along side any paladins to form an opinion.

Thing is I hear alot of people talking about us "hybrids" (soz for the EQ1 term) saying that we cant tank aswell as others and so on and so forth.

I talk with alot of SK's but no palas...lets call it field research SMILEY

I could just make a pala alt and find out i guess but then i would be torn between two faiths SMILEY

/ peace

Troodon · 03-27-2005, 10:03 AM

From a design stand point there's not supposed to be any hybrids, but from a practical view of the implementation as it stands currently the sterotyping of Crusaders as hybrids seems pretty much on the mark. This is an issue as it perculates through out potential for futher development, if we're just mere hybrids then others seem to be quite happy to dismiss our problems and issues that is we should be happy at being subpar in everything. That said Im just being a bit cynical. As a solo class Paladins are pretty good. Though other classes apparnetly can solo a lot more effectively later on (Warlock springs to mind). I cant claim to be able to match feat of tanking blue++ appart from one specific mob when it was such to me: Giant Goliaths, unlike their lower level Firerock Giant cousins, they're pure melee based and we have an edge. Normally I can confidently solo and non caster green++, casters take a lot more care and often luck. Typically I just avoid caster++s as you cant simply blitz them as they have too many hitpoints and can thus nuke you into the ground. Were we might have issues is in group and particularly raid situations: unlike the warriors we're often compared against, once we're out of power the heals and wards that are cited as our ballance against having lower mitigation and hps arent much use. On the whole though I fairly happy with my Paladin, though I think there are still things that SoE need to consider addressing.

Message Edited by TroodonIE on 03-27-2005 05:05 AM

Boli32 · 03-27-2005, 12:13 PM

I physcially cannot solo blue ^^ althoguh one of these levels I may be able to... I think we wax and wane what we can and cannot solo. High green ^^ I have trouble with and consider my equal. But that aside I had a chat with a SK some nights back on this very subject... there are some VERY similar spells and effects ad he could name a spell and I could name its alternative we got and vice versa. And with the exception of Oath strike we could find a parrallel where if they weren't equal the pallys was based on healing / protecting and the SK was on damage. Thatis basically the whole difference betwene the classes, you get arts more based on damage, we on healling / warding. As for Oath Strike I think, that is the "pity art" having taken the long... long road up from 24-28 where our DPS was easily outstriped by every other class in the game (even guardians I found) it pushes us some way into the realms of respectability damage wise and continue reading on these boards and yu'll find that half our damage in a fight is ins fact done by ONE combat art and its upgrade "Oath Strike". Who Tanks best?: Neither... you can kill your mobs quicker so spend less time in the fireing line - we are able to heal our damage more efficiently Who does more dmg? You do, we have "decent" DPS leveled out by our big nuke you have great DPS brought about by most spells doing more damage Who is Most useful? Depends on whom you group with SMILEY

If you have a secondary such as a templar who is all about the healing then a tank more bend towards DPS will be preferable.... likewise a healer with some more "umph" pallys are the better choice. Personally I perfer Wardens to goup with as they compliment us the best (though this may only because the fury class is broken). One thing that did come from the dicussion that really threw me was on the SK abilities use less power than pallys.... leaning them more in the direction of DPS than we... or more to the point they can produced more sustained DPS than a Pally - who can pump out some nice DPS... but only for a short fight.

Message Edited by boli on 03-27-2005 12:06 PM

Roble · 03-28-2005, 12:43 AM

This post seems like he is trying to start a flame war, but I will put in my 2 cents.

I have been parsed against a 50 SK and I beat his DPS every time. We both had the same buffs and the same weapon at the time. I have however upgraded my spells to adept III in most cases.

If you want to compare DPS your missing the bigger picture of the role of the SK and Pally at high end gaming.

Message Edited by RobleeS on 03-27-2005 11:46 AM

moorie27 · 03-28-2005, 05:04 AM

im sure that i stated quite clear in my original post that i wasnt trying to dis palas SMILEY

im fishing for info thats all.

seems u needed to prove a point there tho...so grats on the DPS! some interesting info on life as a 50pala with a 50sk friend might have been better tho...maybe something like how do you both fair in raids...or in different situations etc...

Viglundr · 03-28-2005, 07:20 AM

I've been grouping with a SK for the last 30 levels now. (we both are 50 since a couple months back)

and SK's are more offensive while the Paladin are more defensive.

SK's have to kill what they fight fast because they lack heals.

Pally's don't have the damage output, but our heals makes up for it and we can generally keep going longer then the SK if its a close fight.

In the end, and SK can kill faster, Pally's are slower in DPS, but in the end, they are pretty much the same.

Both of us can solo the same type of mobs, The Paladin might have a slight advantage when it comes to soloing borderline stuff (46^^)

When it comes to MT (I do MT as well, being the Pally) and agro management, the SK is superior simply because of the sheer damageoutput and agro-generating

skills, thus SK is the MT in 95% of the fights.

Once agro is lost to a healer/wizard/who ever the SK has the easiest time to re-gain agro while the Paladin really, really have to struggle for it. In most cases I don't even bother getting it back if the SK is in the group and playing the SA, he can get it back more power efficient then I ever could.

I do love my Paladin, and would not trade for anything. The only disappointing thing I find with the Paladin is the lack of taunts/agro management.

Ender · 03-28-2005, 08:54 PM

Dunno about you Vig but my paladin, as well as most paladins I've grouped with, managed aggro just fine.

uzhiel feathered serpe · 03-28-2005, 11:59 PM

I agree with ender, and I've never been out DPS'd by an SK. As far as parsers run duing a raid and the EBBC, a lvl 50 shadow night and myself, I have beat him every time in DPS...

Also, if I am MT I have redemption on my best DPS'er, and if for some crazy bug or anomaly I lose aggro, it takes ONE swing of sworn strike followed by zealous preaching and poof! aggro is back.

The only thing I can think of is that maybe the other Paladin and SK were 2 different races. The SK in my guild and I are both Barbs.

Uzhiel, lvl 50 Paladin, Eternal Chaos, Faydark.

Collaud · 03-29-2005, 01:03 AM

uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:

I agree with ender, and I've never been out DPS'd by an SK. As far as parsers run duing a raid and the EBBC, a lvl 50 shadow night and myself, I have beat him every time in DPS...

Also, if I am MT I have redemption on my best DPS'er, and if for some crazy bug or anomaly I lose aggro, it takes ONE swing of sworn strike followed by zealous preaching and poof! aggro is back.

The only thing I can think of is that maybe the other Paladin and SK were 2 different races. The SK in my guild and I are both Barbs.

Uzhiel, lvl 50 Paladin, Eternal Chaos, Faydark.

Are you saying that a Paladin will consistently out DPS a SK using his/her pet? That doesn't seem right to me, considering the heals a Paladin gets... if so, then one of the two classes needs some tweaking...

uzhiel feathered serpe · 03-29-2005, 01:42 AM

I agree with you. SK's need tweaking. Many of your skills are broken. I can see how given our heals u should be doing a bit more DPS. As it stands right now an SK cannot out DPS a Paladin, in all honesty.

DUNN · 03-29-2005, 02:41 AM

I group and raid with a pally and yes he beats me most of the time. Nothing i can do. I even have more str than him and weild the exact same weapons. My bird makes the difference but it has to be a ^^ or higher to be effective and if the mob has AE say goodbye to the bird and our extra DPS.

DUNN · 03-31-2005, 02:34 AM

RobleeS wrote:

This post seems like he is trying to start a flame war, but I will put in my 2 cents.

I have been parsed against a 50 SK and I beat his DPS every time. We both had the same buffs and the same weapon at the time. I have however upgraded my spells to adept III in most cases.

If you want to compare DPS your missing the bigger picture of the role of the SK and Pally at high end gaming.

Message Edited by RobleeS on 03-27-2005 11:46 AM

You will notice we don't do flame wars, we just say the facts SMILEY

Ma · 04-01-2005, 12:59 AM

DUNN wrote:

I group and raid with a pally and yes he beats me most of the time. Nothing i can do. I even have more str than him and weild the exact same weapons. My bird makes the difference but it has to be a ^^ or higher to be effective and if the mob has AE say goodbye to the bird and our extra DPS.

Could i be that pally? SMILEY

I seldom loose in dps if the SK doesnt use his pet, but the pet adds 40-60 dps on top of his own dps, and thats hard to beat.

Only problem i ever have is getting agro back if im not using redemption, sometimes it takes all my taunts, group buffs, wards before i get it back where a guardian for example can use one taunt and get agro.

03-27-2005, 05:12 AM	#2
Wurm Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,003	No idea... haven't been around enough SKs to be able to form an opinion. I soloed ^^blue tonight with little to no problem. I have no problem keeping agro if the group isn't screwing around and if someone messes up it takes me but a click to get the agro back on me. shrug I really have no idea what your point is. Its the player not the class 99% of the time. __________________

03-27-2005, 06:23 AM	#3
moorie27 Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 34	No point really other than trying to find out what you guys are about. Like you I havnt had the chance to play along side any paladins to form an opinion. Thing is I hear alot of people talking about us "hybrids" (soz for the EQ1 term) saying that we cant tank aswell as others and so on and so forth. I talk with alot of SK's but no palas...lets call it field research I could just make a pala alt and find out i guess but then i would be torn between two faiths / peace

03-27-2005, 12:13 PM	#5
Boli32 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,425	I physcially cannot solo blue ^^ althoguh one of these levels I may be able to... I think we wax and wane what we can and cannot solo. High green ^^ I have trouble with and consider my equal. But that aside I had a chat with a SK some nights back on this very subject... there are some VERY similar spells and effects ad he could name a spell and I could name its alternative we got and vice versa. And with the exception of Oath strike we could find a parrallel where if they weren't equal the pallys was based on healing / protecting and the SK was on damage. Thatis basically the whole difference betwene the classes, you get arts more based on damage, we on healling / warding. As for Oath Strike I think, that is the "pity art" having taken the long... long road up from 24-28 where our DPS was easily outstriped by every other class in the game (even guardians I found) it pushes us some way into the realms of respectability damage wise and continue reading on these boards and yu'll find that half our damage in a fight is ins fact done by ONE combat art and its upgrade "Oath Strike". Who Tanks best?: Neither... you can kill your mobs quicker so spend less time in the fireing line - we are able to heal our damage more efficiently Who does more dmg? You do, we have "decent" DPS leveled out by our big nuke you have great DPS brought about by most spells doing more damage Who is Most useful? Depends on whom you group with If you have a secondary such as a templar who is all about the healing then a tank more bend towards DPS will be preferable.... likewise a healer with some more "umph" pallys are the better choice. Personally I perfer Wardens to goup with as they compliment us the best (though this may only because the fury class is broken). One thing that did come from the dicussion that really threw me was on the SK abilities use less power than pallys.... leaning them more in the direction of DPS than we... or more to the point they can produced more sustained DPS than a Pally - who can pump out some nice DPS... but only for a short fight. Message Edited by boli on 03-27-2005 12:06 PM

03-28-2005, 12:43 AM	#6
Roble Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 59	This post seems like he is trying to start a flame war, but I will put in my 2 cents. I have been parsed against a 50 SK and I beat his DPS every time. We both had the same buffs and the same weapon at the time. I have however upgraded my spells to adept III in most cases. If you want to compare DPS your missing the bigger picture of the role of the SK and Pally at high end gaming. Message Edited by RobleeS on 03-27-2005 11:46 AM __________________

03-28-2005, 05:04 AM	#7
moorie27 Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 34	im sure that i stated quite clear in my original post that i wasnt trying to dis palas im fishing for info thats all. seems u needed to prove a point there tho...so grats on the DPS! some interesting info on life as a 50pala with a 50sk friend might have been better tho...maybe something like how do you both fair in raids...or in different situations etc...

03-26-2005, 11:44 PM	#1
moorie27 Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 34	Hi there goodie goodie Paladin folk! My name is Ogrim Ironhand, Im a level 42 Ogre Shadow Knight What I have seen: Every time ive grouped with Paladins ive done more dmg by a long shot. Many people have told me that they dont like having pala's as main tank in groups coz they cant hold agro very well. Im yet to see a pala solo blue^^ mobs SK's ive seen solo white^^ (i do blues myself). What I have heard: Paladins can solo anything at high lvls. Your heals own and you can play main healer in a pinch. Paladins are more sort after for groups than SK's. Your DD's do more dmg? Your Big heal is better than the SK harm touch? Just wanted to know what you guys think about Paladins vs Shadow Knights? Who tanks best? Who does more dmg? Who is most useful in a group? etc... etc... (Im not trying to rant about SK's nor am I trying to Flame Pala's) Ogrim Ironhand. http://eq2players.station.sony.com/pplayer.vm?characterId=177605115

03-27-2005, 10:03 AM	#4
Troodon Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 201	From a design stand point there's not supposed to be any hybrids, but from a practical view of the implementation as it stands currently the sterotyping of Crusaders as hybrids seems pretty much on the mark. This is an issue as it perculates through out potential for futher development, if we're just mere hybrids then others seem to be quite happy to dismiss our problems and issues that is we should be happy at being subpar in everything. That said Im just being a bit cynical. As a solo class Paladins are pretty good. Though other classes apparnetly can solo a lot more effectively later on (Warlock springs to mind). I cant claim to be able to match feat of tanking blue++ appart from one specific mob when it was such to me: Giant Goliaths, unlike their lower level Firerock Giant cousins, they're pure melee based and we have an edge. Normally I can confidently solo and non caster green++, casters take a lot more care and often luck. Typically I just avoid caster++s as you cant simply blitz them as they have too many hitpoints and can thus nuke you into the ground. Were we might have issues is in group and particularly raid situations: unlike the warriors we're often compared against, once we're out of power the heals and wards that are cited as our ballance against having lower mitigation and hps arent much use. On the whole though I fairly happy with my Paladin, though I think there are still things that SoE need to consider addressing. Message Edited by TroodonIE on 03-27-2005 05:05 AM

03-28-2005, 07:20 AM	#8
Viglundr Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 53	I've been grouping with a SK for the last 30 levels now. (we both are 50 since a couple months back) and SK's are more offensive while the Paladin are more defensive. SK's have to kill what they fight fast because they lack heals. Pally's don't have the damage output, but our heals makes up for it and we can generally keep going longer then the SK if its a close fight. In the end, and SK can kill faster, Pally's are slower in DPS, but in the end, they are pretty much the same. Both of us can solo the same type of mobs, The Paladin might have a slight advantage when it comes to soloing borderline stuff (46^^) When it comes to MT (I do MT as well, being the Pally) and agro management, the SK is superior simply because of the sheer damageoutput and agro-generating skills, thus SK is the MT in 95% of the fights. Once agro is lost to a healer/wizard/who ever the SK has the easiest time to re-gain agro while the Paladin really, really have to struggle for it. In most cases I don't even bother getting it back if the SK is in the group and playing the SA, he can get it back more power efficient then I ever could. I do love my Paladin, and would not trade for anything. The only disappointing thing I find with the Paladin is the lack of taunts/agro management. __________________

03-28-2005, 08:54 PM	#9
Ender Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 194	Dunno about you Vig but my paladin, as well as most paladins I've grouped with, managed aggro just fine.

03-28-2005, 11:59 PM	#10
uzhiel feathered serpe Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 461	I agree with ender, and I've never been out DPS'd by an SK. As far as parsers run duing a raid and the EBBC, a lvl 50 shadow night and myself, I have beat him every time in DPS... Also, if I am MT I have redemption on my best DPS'er, and if for some crazy bug or anomaly I lose aggro, it takes ONE swing of sworn strike followed by zealous preaching and poof! aggro is back. The only thing I can think of is that maybe the other Paladin and SK were 2 different races. The SK in my guild and I are both Barbs. Uzhiel, lvl 50 Paladin, Eternal Chaos, Faydark.

03-29-2005, 01:03 AM	#11
Collaud Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 89	uzhiel feathered serpent wrote: I agree with ender, and I've never been out DPS'd by an SK. As far as parsers run duing a raid and the EBBC, a lvl 50 shadow night and myself, I have beat him every time in DPS... Also, if I am MT I have redemption on my best DPS'er, and if for some crazy bug or anomaly I lose aggro, it takes ONE swing of sworn strike followed by zealous preaching and poof! aggro is back. The only thing I can think of is that maybe the other Paladin and SK were 2 different races. The SK in my guild and I are both Barbs. Uzhiel, lvl 50 Paladin, Eternal Chaos, Faydark. Are you saying that a Paladin will consistently out DPS a SK using his/her pet? That doesn't seem right to me, considering the heals a Paladin gets... if so, then one of the two classes needs some tweaking...

03-29-2005, 01:42 AM	#12
uzhiel feathered serpe Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 461	I agree with you. SK's need tweaking. Many of your skills are broken. I can see how given our heals u should be doing a bit more DPS. As it stands right now an SK cannot out DPS a Paladin, in all honesty.

03-29-2005, 02:41 AM	#13
DUNN Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 253	I group and raid with a pally and yes he beats me most of the time. Nothing i can do. I even have more str than him and weild the exact same weapons. My bird makes the difference but it has to be a ^^ or higher to be effective and if the mob has AE say goodbye to the bird and our extra DPS. __________________ Dunnott 70 SK Tumaedre 70th Song I wonder how much time i have with this name

03-31-2005, 02:34 AM	#14
DUNN Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 253	RobleeS wrote: This post seems like he is trying to start a flame war, but I will put in my 2 cents. I have been parsed against a 50 SK and I beat his DPS every time. We both had the same buffs and the same weapon at the time. I have however upgraded my spells to adept III in most cases. If you want to compare DPS your missing the bigger picture of the role of the SK and Pally at high end gaming. Message Edited by RobleeS on 03-27-2005 11:46 AM You will notice we don't do flame wars, we just say the facts __________________ Dunnott 70 SK Tumaedre 70th Song I wonder how much time i have with this name

04-01-2005, 12:59 AM	#15
Ma Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 55	DUNN wrote: I group and raid with a pally and yes he beats me most of the time. Nothing i can do. I even have more str than him and weild the exact same weapons. My bird makes the difference but it has to be a ^^ or higher to be effective and if the mob has AE say goodbye to the bird and our extra DPS. Could i be that pally? I seldom loose in dps if the SK doesnt use his pet, but the pet adds 40-60 dps on top of his own dps, and thats hard to beat. Only problem i ever have is getting agro back if im not using redemption, sometimes it takes all my taunts, group buffs, wards before i get it back where a guardian for example can use one taunt and get agro. __________________ Malk 50 Paladin - GUK Aei Desis