Mt`ing

[Xaxtionlorex]

So i finnaly broke my raid leaders back,and am going to start MT`ing on some raids, I'v been raw dps spec for over a year, for kos/eof aa's what do i need to do for tallents 50aa KoS, 21aa EoF wise, i know i need to go str and hate tree's, but what else?

[Zanix]

Honestly? you need a guardian IMO. There are hundreds of threads on this topic already, but if you want personal advice or opinion, I'd say unless you're MTing T6 or KOS (low end) you're gonna get rocked.

1) you won't be able snag agro off the pullers pulls.

if you GOTTA do it, I'd say ditch the STR go WIS/STA

[Xaxtionlorex]

oh its only for t6, to spice it up, im alittle tired of toping dps charts in there, this is just for fun.

[Arlon]

This is what I have:KoS AA: STA 8-4-8-8, INT 8-4-8 (STR 1)EoF Hate tree: Caress 5 - Terror 3 - Promise 3 - Slam 5 - DM 5 - Siphon Hate 1Master (and adept 3) spells/CAs are a must.Aggro doesn't seem to be that much of a problem with a hate buffer in MT group and a troubadour in caster group. Of course if a wizard/warlock goes nuke happy he/she might peel eventually, but it's up to the players to adapt to new situation / MT.

[Miya111]

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Zanix wrote:

Honestly? you need a guardian IMO. There are hundreds of threads on this topic already, but if you want personal advice or opinion, I'd say unless you're MTing T6 or KOS (low end) you're gonna get rocked.

1) you won't be able snag agro off the pullers pulls.

if you GOTTA do it, I'd say ditch the STR go WIS/STA

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Your are dead wrong, that being said heres why.

I am the MT for my guild on guk, and we use a monk to pull all the time, to prevent stuns etc on the MT while pulling.  I can get aggro off the monk on a pull no problem whatsoever.  Monk autoattacks uses tsunami on the pull and I get aggro without issue.  On certain pulls that have adds we use a necro to fd the adds away once ive taunted the encounter we want.   Simply put SK's have some of the best snap aggro in the game using DM, period.

I would reccomend you put ur 2 taunts, pharias mark, and ur shield bash in the first 4 slots of ur primary tool bar, and spam them the entire fight.  Also, once you gave initial aggro, DM, despoil the encounter.  If someone does get aggro, use ur intercede on them, it helps to get aggro back, if that dont work, then FD their little overnuking butt.

As far as AA setup, I went down the hate line and got the 4% hate xfer, and some mixed reaver/decay line for the added taps and specifically siphon armament, this allowing my MT group for flexibility as we dont require a pally/sk in my grp to boost AC.

Make shure you get as many masters as possibly, atm, im missing 1 master from t7, and its a minor one, everything else is master 1 or 2.  It helps trust me, even in the MT role, im still making the parser most fight(be it at the bottom).

 

I really hate when people say SK's cant MT, we can MT just fine as long as u know how to play ur class.

[gundali]

It's still painful to see folks write of the SK as a viable MT for raiding. It may once have been true back on launch but the SK as a class now has some real options to generate hate. Most of all now we right up there for snap aggro.

Death March is a huge huge AOE aggro proc.

Rescue, I know other classes get it but so do we.

PT, it can crit for upwards of 10k. Tell me that's not handy for snap aggro?

FD, targetable. Educate your raid on the use of FD if you must. It's a great help.

Your taunts and dreaded DoT effect. We need an extra tick or so to lock down aggro, but then on a mob with a mem-wipe you'll praise the same same DoT system.

I'm in no way a top level SK MT but even i've cleared labs, tanked the dragons for DT access and taken some names in HoS. I know other threads with SK's that have cleared DT and pretty much everything else in the game. It's possible

Rothchilde Moriquendi

[MrDiz]

/agreed. SKs make great raid tanks and have no worries going into battle with one acting as either MT or better yet, OT for tier 7 raids inclusing contesteds. If the player knows how to tank, im happy.

[Xanoth]

like someone said if you have a monk to do the pull and position (something a guardian can use ToS for), then SKs can tank just about anything really. Emerald Halls last night when i changed places with the guild zerker on The Farstrider Unicorn there was no difference, the encounter was still a pain in the rear no matter who was tanking

[Dijital]

I would'nt be happy MTing for anything but novelty value, we are slower through zones than a guardian and use way more mana, our aggro is a little more shakey and we dont have reinforcement :p Also we do more dps than a guardian outside of an mt role so for raid efficiency it makes 0 sense.I'll do it if i have to for any reason, but it doesnt make much sense to me and i've got nothing to prove to anyone in an mt role. I'll offtank all day long though, and do.

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

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Dijitalis wrote:
I would'nt be happy MTing for anything but novelty value, we are slower through zones than a guardian and use way more mana, our aggro is a little more shakey and we dont have reinforcement :p

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I find the opposite is true. When we roll with an SK as MT, we usually arrive end zone quicker. Don't notice a diff in aggro control either. T6 or T7 MTing is fine for SK. Yes, guardians are fine at it too.

Message Edited by CHIMPNOODLE. on 01-26-2007 07:36 AM

[Zanix]

I still base my opinion on the fact that IF you can get a guardian or zerker to MT, you're raids already at an advantage. I will find myself MTing if one of those classes are missing.  I have all but 1 master also, and it's very difficult to grab the snap aggro of the beginning of the pull, and even harder to keep the aggro 1/2 - 3/4 that way into the fight. SKs start on the hate list with a number of like 80 while zerkers and guards are already at 550-600.

Yes, it can be done, you can spec and build your SK to be a MT, i suppose. but then again, you can spec a defiler for DPS or you can spec a wizard as a mana battery.

Problems I personally see with the above mentioned tactics:

 

rescue

once every 10 minutes

death march

doesn't generate enough hate for the 2nd half of the fight

FD raid member

why FD someone who'd normally be putting out top DPS on the encounter.

PT

once every 15 minutes.

Message Edited by Zanix on 01-26-2007 07:45 AM

[Zanix]

Let me also state that I am talking about T7 (T7B) raiding. I rather not turn this into a flame post, but honestly Miya111, I'm not gonna buy that comment coming from you. Do you MT with Icebrand? Like I said in my OP, T6 and the lower 1/2 of KOS is possible. However higher end KOS, contested, and EOF are silly for a SK to tank, this is of course, my opinion.

[AziBam]

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Zanix wrote:

I still base my opinion on the fact that IF you can get a guardian or zerker to MT, you're raids already at an advantage. I will find myself MTing if one of those classes are missing.  I have all but 1 master also, and it's very difficult to grab the snap aggro of the beginning of the pull, and even harder to keep the aggro 1/2 - 3/4 that way into the fight. SKs start on the hate list with a number of like 80 while zerkers and guards are already at 550-600.

Yes, it can be done, you can spec and build your SK to be a MT, i suppose. but then again, you can spec a defiler for DPS or you can spec a wizard as a mana battery.

Problems I personally see with the above mentioned tactics:

 

rescue

once every 10 minutes

death march

doesn't generate enough hate for the 2nd half of the fight

FD raid member

why FD someone who'd normally be putting out top DPS on the encounter.

PT

once every 15 minutes.

Message Edited by Zanix on 01-26-2007 07:45 AM

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I'm just curious how you are arriving at the 80 vs 600 #s.  Exactly what are you saying is creating that?  Caress vs. their hate proc?  Something else? 

[Zanix]

I read this somewhere...each class starts initially with a spot on the hate list. I'm not sure the exact number or how i'ts derived, but I read it somewhere. I suppose I can look it up. from what I remembers those numbers are somewhat accurate.

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

I find you are at an advantage rolling through the majority of most zones with an SK tanking. Haven't noticed aggro problems off pulls either. Hard to judge why you would be having those problems, diff spec, diff gear, diff raid setup...all with diff specs/gear. Don't see it though.

"Yes, it can be done, you can spec and build your SK to be a MT, i suppose. but then again, you can spec a defiler for DPS or you can spec a wizard as a mana battery"

You can also spec SKs to DPS or off-tank. Very versatile class

The 4 "rescues" mentioned do come in handy when needed as well.

Message Edited by CHIMPNOODLE. on 01-26-2007 08:16 AM

[Zanix]

Yes, I 100% agree. but given the choice (which we all were presented with) why go down a road that you can't get as far down as another class which was specifically engineered to be better and master that road? We're versitile, but, marginally substitutional when talking about replacing a guard or zerker.

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

I disagree actually. Those days are gone imo. The playing field has leveled in a large way. Warriors, and guardians in particular were engineered to excel against melee based mobs, with a more direct advantage against single encounters anyway. With the changes to mit, mob auto-attack dammage, emphasis on debuffs/resists, and AA lines it's much less a factor.  The diff in Hp/mit/avoidance is negligible now. The temp buffs are still a factor...except some encounters favor SK temp buffs now instead, particularly any with multi-mobs. SK has been engineered to excel on multi-mobs and non-linked encounters. The real issue is that a lot of the toughest are not multis..however, the majority of most zones leading up to them is.

[Zanix]

I see your point. And yeah, I guess I am just old school in my SK ways. I still stand firm on the opinion though. I think it's more of an effort to make a SK a meat shield than it would be to make a guardian/zerker a meat shielf

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

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Zanix wrote:

I see your point. And yeah, I guess I am just old school in my SK ways. I still stand firm on the opinion though. I think it's more of an effort to make a SK a meat shield than it would be to make a guardian/zerker a meat shielf

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I think you're right. I had to make some sacrifices and pass over some goodies too. My DPS is very low compared to what even "middle ground" SKs put out, even when I buff my INT to 705 in "dps" mode grouped (only hitting that mark by using a grandmaster INT potion as well) and having INT buffer classes with me. I do have to work hard tanking, and follow very particular spell/ca orders when raid DPS starts hitting high water marks. Basically, my SK is not really versatile anymore...I'm completely built toward taking a beating, and started that way from the day I created the toon almost 2 years ago. Even my god choice is for absorbing dammage (Brell)..+15% 10 min Miti blessing + fire/cold ressit, and +3500 miti 15 sec miracle. Anyway, things like that.

[Zanix]

yah. and when it's all said and done, you need to look at the longevity of your SK. I've always been DPS PK, I can take somewhat of a beating, but I am paperthin at the same time. I *could* pick up a loose  mob on a raid, or save a group from adds or save the life of my healer with a rescue, but underneath it all, I whack our some decent DPS.

It would be expected that joining a guild with intentions of being the MT would be shatter hope the day a guardian wanted membership. If the guild were to ever "choose one"...no matter how tank built you might be, common knowledge... I think leadership would  drop you in a second for a guardian or zerker.

Versitility is the key to 'survival' for us. If we want that spot in the raid, we need to bring the most we can to that raid. Ya need to be the tank that *could* throw out 1500+ DPS while also being the tank that will snag a loose mob, and bring it to the real meat shield

Message Edited by Zanix on 01-26-2007 10:16 AM

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

I think we have a role either way, but I'm very curious to see what the next expansion brings out. We were given some excellent tools where we have have some situational advantages, but not enough mobs to suit em yet. I'd love to see more high end bosses with dammage shields like Corso, Ripostes like the last stance on Vilucidae, set timer raid-wide memwipes, melee resistability/immunity like Ul (longer period though), disease based attacks/vulnerabilites, multi mobs like Gnorbls/gnillaws/trios....things like that.

Message Edited by CHIMPNOODLE. on 01-26-2007 10:43 AM

[Zanix]

Speaking of end bosses, I prefer ones that *don't* require a specific strat, like the ones in EOF. Althought this is like the signature move of EQ since even Eqlive...I think there should be 'more than one way' to kill bosses.

EoF especially....very very specific on strats.

[Xaxtionlorex]

Even in not the best gear, just knowing my class, i throw around 800-1k dps on most fights with out ripping, 1.2k in full burn sans death march, I also have been trash pick up many times from the DM snap, tank goes down i drop the dp, ht a few drop the extra dot i was holding back, armor debuff the encounter drop the taunts and life tap my way through the rest of the trash,and still throw down a top 3 parse. But I know I am not geared enough for t7 tanking full time, its why im starting in t6 to get my feet wet. Come on,its courts, bruisers tank courts.

[Callim]

PK just doesn't want to MT because it would mean going defensive and sword/board....and he's allergic to that :smileyvery-happy:

 

Hehe just teasing (but its so true!) PK, but I disagree with ya on MTing.

 

Tubby's gear isn't nearly up to par for T7 MT role, can only get to around 5300 or so mit buffed, not including despoil, but if you have a SK with 5800 pre despoil, pre-armament, and 12k hp...then your gold nearly anywhere strictly stat wise, and yes I've seen SK's with those stats.

 

Some advice I would give, while its sort of a "duh" category, get a dirge to debuff disease as quickly as possible on pull, its less agro then a brigand, and I've found spell wise I get far more damage from dirge debuffs anyway, that will help your initial agro spike.

 

Second, do not use DM on pull if you can help it, yes it adds int, and that int is nice for a bit more dps for your initial salvo, but DM seems to give hate based on how many people are engaged with the mobs when cast, so wait until the raid is fully engaged then pop it if you can/need.

 

 

 

[t0iletduck]

5300 mit is plenty. Pre EoF mitigation was the most important factor, but there is a serious diminishing return on mitigation 5000+. Group buffed I am just a hair under 5400 but I still have plenty of armor upgrades for mitigation left to aquire (Fitzpizzle just will not drop the Ichor Filled Thorax, and Sanctum and Freethinkers just loves wardens and monks so far for us....)That being said, toss in Despoil and you've now got 5700+ casting it on just 1 mob. I had a little over 7900 mit vs that 8 mob linked encounter as you go down the ramp in Lyceum toward Vilucidae I will agree with PK though on some counts. Against a single hard hitting mob, a guardian is still the best. Tower of Stone and 12 second parry are get out of jail free cards and that is a deserved tradeoff they get for horrible dps. I HATE to conceed anything to a guardian, but I have to accept this fact. So for us, linked multimob encounters, or singles with damage shields or ripostes are what we will excel at. Siphon hate is especially handy vs Vilucidae in his last stance. Really though the versatility is our strong suite. The 4 rescues is very handy for getting agro back because wizzies, bruisers, and brigands WILL steal agro, even off guardians or zerkers. I actually got to fight a guardian for agro against Tarinax as I was the only other plate tank we had in raid at the time. We had it pretty evenly split after each mem wipe. He started with rescue, I used death march. He used re-enforcement, i used harm touch etc etc mob dead. Depending on who logs in, I get to be MT, add tank, or just plain old DPS. I love the fact that im not always doing the same thing every time.

[aesParaDoX]

i would recomend hate tree in the new eof ap, works fine

and for the old ap i took this skills:

sta - 6-4-8-8 (got 13,8k hp with defiler/templar/fury and about 61,5% miti without despoil)

int - 7-4-8

and 4 points on agi for little bit better avoidence

hate gain of str tree seems to work strange, after i changed to my current configuration i got more aggro then before (with 8 points in hate)

the only thing i recomend is: get an coercer in mt group and it works fine =)

and it`s bull[I cannot control my vocabulary] that sk cannt tank in t7 ...

we also use guards/zerkers, but if they are lazy i play mt (tanked things like hos,labs,deathtoll,clockwork,xux and some named in freethinkers, even malkonis works fine with sk [if the server doesnt lag like hell]) .. SK FTW

Message Edited by aesParaDoXon on 01-29-2007 03:03 AM

[JoarAddam]

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Zanix wrote:

Honestly? you need a guardian IMO. There are hundreds of threads on this topic already, but if you want personal advice or opinion, I'd say unless you're MTing T6 or KOS (low end) you're gonna get rocked.

1) you won't be able snag agro off the pullers pulls.

if you GOTTA do it, I'd say ditch the STR go WIS/STA

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Puller? 

The MT is the puller.   With the right class feeding you, you've got good AOE aggro...  that's our bread and butter style of fight.

I had tried the AGI line for the +12.9 DEF and the agility, but I was only getting 3% avoidance out of the whole shebang, and yes, Aggro could be a little iffy.

And then i went down the str line... HARD...  screw the 4 4 4... i threw 4 into str, got me over 500, good enough, and then 8 8 8 8, tossed the leftovers into AGI and INT... the stats only.  With most of the others sitting high, it sounded like a good idea to me.

70% haste for 20 out of every 27.9 secods.  Good solid aggro, taunts coming up fast and casting at .46 sec... a 9min 6 sec rescue...  13.5 min harmtouch.... Sacrament refreshes before your pet dies...   Add a speedier death march from this, plus a speedier death march from the EoF hate line...  The aggro is there....

Speaking of sacrament...  Do we get the aggro transfer (their numbers get added to our total) from our pet when it dies as a summoner does when their pet dies, or does that not apply to swarm pets?  Does sacrament have any hate to it at all? (well, yeah, there's at least one point, but...)

Message Edited by JoarAddam on 01-29-2007 04:54 AM

[Wytie]

If the group knows a sk we can tank just fine but imo we really shine in the off tank situation, for snap agro incase the mt goes down.

The best thing is SK have prob the best DPS for a tank I was tank for a pick up group lastweekend and was 2nd and 3 on the top dps for the group and the thing was i was tankinh that means i was getting all the stuns ect from the mob and was still able to pump out nice dps, yea i couldnt touch the brig but he wasnt tanking either

If you use your HT then you tank and have highest dps hows that for a Tank..........

[Zanix]

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JoarAddam wrote:

Puller? 

The MT is the puller.   With the right class feeding you, you've got good AOE aggro...  that's our bread and butter style of fight.

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you and split the mobs yourself? I don't get it.

 

[Eluzay]

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Zanix wrote:

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JoarAddam wrote:

Puller? 

The MT is the puller.   With the right class feeding you, you've got good AOE aggro...  that's our bread and butter style of fight.

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you and split the mobs yourself? I don't get it.

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sk can body pull, and bruiser using intercede and stone deaf i think it is can nullify the apha strike... sk rescue on main boss, off tank pulling adds... depends on style but i have seen both mt and off tank pulling in raids.