Upcoming Changes.

[ZIMTOK]

I was wondering how you guys feel about being a Bruiser.  Personally I love it.  Sure I can't tank as well as Guardians and I have to be a lil bit more craftier to keep agro but I knew that before I signed up to be one.  I am perfectly satisfied with being a second tank in the group.  I wouldn't trade our DPS for nothing.  I use to be an assassin but didn't like it because the burst damage caused so much agro yet only out damaging Brawlers by a small amount.  Brawlers have more steady damage where I can control the hate I get.

 

With the upcoming changes that may all change.  I'm all for change.  If they increase our tanking ability a little bit and decrease our DPS a little bit then thats cool.  But if they take away our DPS to the point that we can't out damage any scout or mage types then I got a problem.  If I wanted to be a straight tank then I would of started a Guardian.  I wanted versatility and I have that now.  I'm not asking the best of both worlds, I just want a chunk of each.  I don't expect to out damage an Assassin or Wizard but I want to be close.  I don't expect to tank better than a Guardian but I want to be servicable if I had to.

 

What are your thoughts?

[nakuladas]

So you want the classes to be out of balance? "I want to tank better then scout and mages.....but I also want to out damage them too."

[Putka]

I used to play a bruiser before the AGI nerf. I thought my char was so ridiculously overpowered, I deleted it cause I knew this just cant possibly last.. no way. Yeah and.. now you're getting your DPS nerfed. I saw it coming months ago

[ZIMTOK]

You guys need to think more granular than that.  I just want to compete in DPS.  I think the Bruisers should out DPS pure scouts but not the DPS scouts.  Why?  Because I choose the DPS side of my class.  I choose a DPS tank, what's wrong with that?  You picked Assassin.  What does that tell me?  It means you wanted the some of the skills of a scout and have maximum DPS for your class.  If you wanted to be a pure utility scout then you would of done so.  You wanted variety.  So do I.  Did I say I wanted evac, tracking, pathfinding, and Invisibility abilities too?  No I didnt.

 

I feel fighters, scouts, and mages have thier pure classes and their DPS classes.  Both you and I choose the later of the two.  The differences?  You also wanted some scout abilities and I wanted some tanking abilities.  You can't put everything in a box and say "You're a tank...that's all you can do".  I believe Sony wants variety.

Message Edited by ZIMTOK on 04-28-2005 09:48 AM

[CosmicAcidGu]

so if you want to outdamage a certain scout class, will you accept that scout class to outtank you?

Finnster

[BrainMu]

Personally, i don't think there is a problem with bruisers the way they are .. we aren't the best tanks but we can tank, were not the best dps but we can out dps some scout classes while not tanking. 

scouts can dps all the time and have tons of utilities which are very useful to a group

bruisers can dps and can take some hits but can't really do both at the same time.

both classes have 2 nice features ... that in my opinion is balance...

[ZIMTOK]

Cosmic, your missing the point brotha.  I picked a tanking class, of course I'm going to tank better.  Peeps that chose to be a scout wanted utility abilities.  Mute point.

Message Edited by ZIMTOK on 04-28-2005 10:03 AM

[Gaige]

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ZIMTOK wrote:
Cosmic, your missing the point brotha.  I picked a tanking class, of course I'm going to tank better.  Peeps that chose to be a scout wanted utility abilities.  Mute point.

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That isn't the way it works though.

[Ghar]

I picked a bruiser in the hopes it would be anything like a monk in EQLive. i was sadly mistaken, and i can only hope that i don't turn more into a tank than a dps.  i loved the class structure of a monk in EQLive, and I'd like to stick as close to it here as i can manage, personally. more class diversity in selecting from 2 skills each level would be better.  you could tailor more to DPS or Tanking based on which one you choose, without having to rely on gear alone, and without the whole class having to change

[xfbishop]

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CosmicAcidGuru wrote:

so if you want to outdamage a certain scout class, will you accept that scout class to outtank you?

Finnster

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why does it have to be just dps vs. tanking ability?

dont scouts bring a number of other things to the table that a fighter cant?

as far as im concerned bruisers are perfect as is, we can dps in dps mode, but dont bring anything else really to the table, we can tank anything anyone else can in a group and even small group with no issues. and yes we may out dps a bard or a rogue at times, but im willing to bet those people arent playing their classes well, my brigand frequently out dps's assassins especially in a longer fight.

[Hadesknight]

Ok I run both an assassin (45) and a bruiser (2 Assassins/rangers "should" be second to none in melee combat and only come in as 2nd to wizard/warlock in overall sustained dps. 3rd should be birgs/swashbucklers with monks/bruisers following very closely. people say scouts bring utility hmm what utility evac almost every 2nd or 3rd class gets this skill by the time there 50, Pathfinding = useless fluff spell at best (16% speed) and Tracking is a joke, the only utillity scouts are bards.

I just wish they would decide on what the hell they want brawlers to be light weight tanks with above ave dps or very light weight tanks (slightly better tanking than any scout class) with with good dps but just under or on par with brigs ect. but come nowhere close to assassins or rangers which are pure melee dps nothing else.

 

btw my Assassin isn't usaly beaten in the dps department (peircing immune mobs are a nightmare tho) run at around 150-200+ in most fights vs yellow/orange mobs most of the time. But do hate when i see brawler types coming in very close to my dps (with in 20-30dps)

Message Edited by Hadesknight on 04-30-2005 12:09 AM

[Demothis]

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ZIMTOK wrote:
Cosmic, your missing the point brotha.  I picked a tanking class, of course I'm going to tank better.  Peeps that chose to be a scout wanted utility abilities.  Mute point.

Message Edited by ZIMTOK on 04-28-2005 10:03 AM

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actually, that is not correct, people who chose bards wanted to be utillity (which needs some royal work I might add), those that wanted the assasin route usually want to kill things (hints the name). Scouts as a whole should out damage Tanks, this dosn't meant a bruiser should do less damage then a bard by any means, but in genral. Corse if those bards start using those utilities to tank better then someone who can out damage them, it's not fair to cry foul.

[Opa]

What I have always liked about my bruiser is that he has the probably the best defensive capacity to offensive capacity ratio in the game. I don't think this is going to be changing, even with the planned changes.

[ZIMTOK]

Moorgard continually is saying no tank should out DPS any scout or mage and that the change is coming.  Honeslty, if they nerf Bruiser's DPS then I don't know what the Devs were thinking when they made the Bruiser class.  Look at the facts:

1.  They can duel wield

2.  They have minimal amout of Taunts.  If fact the only Group Taunt I have is one I got from my level 10 Training advancement and its grey to me.

3.  Buffs are mostly offensive based.

4.  Brawlers can only wear Light Armor or Very Light Armor.

5.  We get a buff that increases other tanks Avoidance and Mitigation.  This supports that they can serve as an off tank.

What is this telling me?  That Brawlers fit the DPS role with some tanking abilities not the other way around.  Not saying Brawlers can't tank but if a Brawler wants to tank then the player would have to make sure he pays attention to the progression of the character.  But as I look at our abilities, I say we fit the DPS roll more than tanking.  And thats fine with me.  But the Devs are showing you one thing of what a Brawler does through thier abilities and then turning around and saying you arn't DPS.  Makes no sense to me.

[Opa]

The thing this, you can't infer everything about a subclass's purpose, or intended purpose, by looking that their abilities. Bruisers have taunts, Dirges have taunts. Bruisers have positional attacks, Assassins have positional attacks. Bruisers have a fear, Warlocks have a fear. It would be specious to argue that certain abilities we have "prove" we were meant to DPS. It would be much easier to argue a point such as "we excell as off-tanks." But we're not particularly shabby tanks either.

[Thail]

I have not seen this famous post about nerfing our dps. Can you please link it. Ty

[Oidan]

I really like the state in which our class is compared to every other class. I made a Bruiser to "Bruise". I wanted a class where I could reasonably tank without fear of dying too quick and I wanted to have very nice DPS. I have that now. If they Nerf our DPS a lot then I will either reroll another character or quit the game and go to another.

[SageMarrow]

ditto that

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Oidan wrote:
I really like the state in which our class is compared to every other class. I made a Bruiser to "Bruise". I wanted a class where I could reasonably tank without fear of dying too quick and I wanted to have very nice DPS. I have that now. If they Nerf our DPS a lot then I will either reroll another character or quit the game and go to another.

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Its already been said that we wont tank as well as any other fighter, so if they touch my dps... thats my saving grace considering anything in heavy armor will be able to tank me under the table...

 

That just wont work, and ill be dammed if i sit around another 6 months waiting on them to fix it this go around. As if its not enough im bored out of my mind...

Message Edited by SageMarrow on 05-01-2005 04:21 AM

[SageMarrow]

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roarfrost wrote:

Yep, their solutions is to Nerf everyone. More time sinks, just what we need. As if most "hard" fights weren't tedious and boring enough already.

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As I've said repeatedly, we aren't changing just one aspect of combat. We're changing a bunch of things, the end result of which should be a more fun game all around.

 

We're still tinkering with the numbers as to how much, if at all, we want to adjust PC damage. NPC damage will likely be reduced at some tiers of difficulty but not all of them.

 

Scouts will increase in DPS relative to fighters.

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Moorgard
EverQuest II Community Guy

In the current game, fighters do high DPS and tank extremely well. This isn't confined to one or two subclasses, but rather encompasses all of them. This statement will no doubt spark the "No way, my subclass is way broken compared to that other fighter subclass!" but regardless of that, my basic statement is correct.

As I said in my post last night, one goal with the changes is to reinforce archetype roles. In the balance between fighters and scouts, this means that fighters will be able to tank better than scouts, and scouts will be able to do more damage than fighters. Again, that's painting this issue with the broadest possible strokes; obviously there is a lot of variance that will happen based on subclass.

Keep in mind that we are adjusting the game as a whole during this process, not just the damage output of certain classes. It won't just be fighters that do less damage, but likely everyone in the game: players and NPCs alike. This will have the net effect of making fights last a bit longer, which is a good thing for those classes like enchanters and bards that excel in things like crowd control, group enhancements, etc.

As you can see, none of these factors exist in a vacuum, which is what makes all this such an involved process. But yes, when all is said and done, scouts will end up doing more damage than fighters.

===========================
Moorgard
EverQuest II Community Guy

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There you go Thail...

Thats both of the most pending dps nerf post... basically - nothing concrete - but what is around here?

Message Edited by SageMarrow on 05-01-2005 04:25 AM

[Nasyr24]

WHAT are you guys thinking?!?! Bruisers are fun to play right now ! This cant be ! This has to be nerfed !!!I think this is how SOE thinks about it

Message Edited by Nasyr2412 on 05-01-2005 07:46 AM

[xfbishop]

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===========================
Moorgard
EverQuest II Community Guy

 Again, that's painting this issue with the broadest possible strokes; obviously there is a lot of variance that will happen based on subclass.

===========================
Moorgard
EverQuest II Community Guy

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this right here tells me there will be exceptions to this rule, ie: bards and enchanters will not fit into the typical scout>mage>fighter>priest lineup.

and since my brigand regularly bests assassin's in dps i have no issue with those 2 being above me, but i would really like to see them give them more, than take mine away.

[Putka]

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xfbishop wrote:

and since my brigand regularly bests assassin's in dps

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:smileyindifferent:

 

yeah.. at lv29? Come on you know those assassins you so regulary beat are probably total newbs with app1s that press 3 keys in the entire fight :smileyvery-happy:. What is with all these brigands saying they beat assassins, I've yet to see any of them outdamage me. Compare good players to good players, not [Removed for Content].

[Demon]

I believe the results of this change is the continued whining that goes on. SOE recieves a complaint numerous times that I can't do this they can do this I want to do this. Everyone wants to be the best and no one wants to be balanced. You say you want balance but all of that goes out the window when you say you want to tank like a guardian have CA's that hit as hard as an assasian. Everyone needs to step back a moment and say what else can I do.

 

Pathfinding is not a useless spell. It is a 100% free run buff. I love it personaly. Gets you where you need to go faster costs me nothing (i.e. price of a horse spirit of the wolf totem's the time and effort to do legendary jman boots) evac same thing. I often partner with my friend who is an assasian to help him level or do heritage quests. It's great when you have an assasian and you say ok evac so we can do the next part and he evacs you to the closest mariners bell.

 

The bruiser as a class is a lot stronger than what the majority of bruisers are giving it credit for. We have one of the most versatile roles in the game. We can tank we can deal out good dps we can off tank. There is only so much cake you can eat before it is all gone.

 

The original poster on this thread never said he wanted to tank as well as guardians. He said he wanted to stay right where he was. Obviously he knows how to play his class. He has dps just under most scouts and can tank fairly well. Not the best tank but a viable one none the less.

 

We have one of the best solo classes thanks to having a heal we can use every fight that costs 0 power. We make excellent off tanks. We can push good dps while making the main tank better at his job. and if need be we can tank ourselves. So they are nerfing dmg a little. If you paid attention to Moorguards post this is to make mezzers and bards a more useful role.

 

It is said in that post dmg is going to be nerfed across the board not just to fighters it is going to happen to the scouts as well. Will it affect fighters more most certainly, but what about those healers who most of their damage comes froma weapon imagine how bad they are going to be hurting. Just as the AGI nerf was across the board but brawlers and scouts felt it the most.

[Miyu-Lega]

The general problem with Bruiser and Monk balance at the end game is the fact everything bottlenecks with buffs.  Lets look at some general numbers comparing myself to a zerker guildie unbuffed. Avoidance - Me: 81.7 Him 62.3 Mitigation - (Keep in mind *aprox* every 50 ac = 1% additional mitigation) Me 2130 Him 2760 As things stand nowI have him by a good margin on avoidance and he has me by mitigation, what you would expect.  Now let's look at the numbers when buffed for a raid. Avoidance - Me: 83.9 Him: 77.2 Mitigation - Me 2710 Him 3780 Now lets throw in the fact that he has me by over 800hp and you can see a serious problem here.  I do everything I can to focus on the tank aspect of our class, +hp +ac +sta + agil, and every time I think I'm closing the gap between a plate and a bruiser I just see myself taking 2 steps back.  The avoidance is a huge gripe of mine, and while Moorgard claims plates will avoid less after the combat patch, I'll still say that a plate having nearly the same avoidance as the fabled 'avoidance tank' is just wrong....