Unarmed Damage vs. Weapon Damage

eq2NT · 11-20-2006, 09:27 PM

I've now played eq2 and my monk for a week and I am very puzzled as to the following. It appears that I do SIGNIFICANTLY (as in 1.5x - 2x) more damage unarmed than I do with weapons that I find. My monk is level 19 in all mastercrafted T2 gear (including jewelry). The weapon available to me is average 19.5 two-handed staff from Firemyst Gully.

How exactly does the attack power work with weapons?

Thank you in advance.

Baelas · 11-20-2006, 10:36 PM

Without the strength line of achievements, barehanded is not viable unless something has changed drastically since I last checked.What you are probably noticing is the fact that fists are actually very slow weapons, which means you hit seldom but hard.

eq2NT · 11-20-2006, 11:30 PM

How is melee damage calculated?

Is it your weapon base + attack power modifier? If so, is your unarmed base (without str AA) 0?

Kainsei · 11-21-2006, 01:07 AM

eq2NT wrote:

How is melee damage calculated?

Is it your weapon base + attack power modifier? If so, is your unarmed base (without str AA) 0?

When you're going unarmed your damage is the same of using a store-bought 2-handed weapon (those without stats and with low dmg compared to crafted/looted 2-handed weapons) of your current tier lvl.The str line AA allows you to double attack (96% chance at rank SMILEY

when you're unarmed.I'm not sure about auto-attack damage but CAs are affected by strength.

Message Edited by Kainsei on 11-20-2006 12:08 PM

psubull · 11-21-2006, 01:23 AM

type /weaponstats (or /weapons) in game while unarmed and armed to compare your unarmed attack speed/damage to your armed attack speed/damage

eq2NT · 11-21-2006, 02:59 AM

WoW! This is revolutionary. Thank you!

Shinku · 11-22-2006, 02:29 AM

Along these lines, I still have to figure out which weapon is best for dps. I haven't really been able to come to any conclusions. I want to gear toward a dps more then tank. I know I will not get close to scouts or many casters, but still would like to beat our zerkers. Before EOF basically I could do 1k dps with a coercer in group (no complaints) And about 500-700ish in a group with no dps buffs. I Just want to know if I could do better by going 2handed instead.So if anyone has done "recent" tests along these lines, I'd love to hear about it. A 2 handed? or Duel Wield. Right now with my 50aa's in brawler, I have 4488 in both stamina and inteligence lines for refrence. (post EOF) When I duel wield, I use Fists of Bashing at (DR 57. SMILEY

and the lower damage Twin Calamite at (DR 55.0). When using a 2 handed I use Staff of Prismatic Keepers with (DR 94.7). Now if you do the "straight" math, the DR of the 2 duel wielders is greater then the 2 handed. But it "appears" that I do more dps with the 2h. So it just doesn't seem logical to me. Should I stick with 2h, or just try and get better duel wield weapons? My duel wield weapons around "chump change" as it is, though I know there are better. So if anyone has done any recent tests, or can explain why one wielding style is "better" for dps then the other, I'd like to hear about it. Will help me make decisions when it comes to AA's in my monk tree.Thanks in advance!

Dak · 11-22-2006, 08:48 PM

I am not using the STR AA line and see fair differences in the str boosts I get from equipment. Just by boosting your str with armor, jewelery, and what ever you can improve your damage. I can also see the difference when my str imbued ring kicks in too for that duration. Right now my lvl 27 monk has a str of 107 and will usually do about 45-75 dam per hit and with a Agl of 128 she hits fairly quick. Then add skills, boosts (ring will usually take her to 55-85 dam when the imbuing kicks in) and crits.

Bobbubski · 11-29-2006, 12:33 AM

Kainsei wrote:

The str line AA allows you to double attack (96% chance at rank when you're unarmed.

Message Edited by Kainsei on 11-20-2006 12:08 PM

My question for this is when is the best point to go unarmed while working up the Str AA line? Should I wait unitl I am able to invest 1 point (or more) into the ability that speeds unarmed attack/increases double attack % or will the benefit begin earlier in the line? Thanks.

Kainsei · 11-29-2006, 05:18 AM

Bobbubski wrote:
My question for this is when is the best point to go unarmed while working up the Str AA line? Should I wait unitl I am able to invest 1 point (or more) into the ability that speeds unarmed attack/increases double attack % or will the benefit begin earlier in the line? Thanks.

If you want to use the str line, it might be better for you to wait until you have 8 points to spend in the double attack / dps buff ability.In others words, you need to put at least 16 points in the str line (4 / 4 / SMILEY

.

Message Edited by Kainsei on 11-28-2006 04:18 PM

Raidi Sovin'faile · 11-29-2006, 05:56 AM

For a player just starting and getting AA's at level 10, having around 12 points should net you about the same as rare crafted. Saves some cash, although you've lost some stats.

Thereafter, every point you put in will net you better and better unarmed combat until you get to the point where only fabled weapons (good ones) will beat em.

So I'd start at 12 if you want to do the change. As it is, you'll still benefit from the +Str, so you'll only feel behind between 5-11 points. It all depends on how quick you can get AAxp.

Bobbubski · 11-29-2006, 06:11 AM

thanks, folks. that helps a lot.

Sslarrga · 11-29-2006, 06:45 AM

Actually, if you take in loss of HPS, Power, Stats, possible Avoidance, Procs (inherent or adorned), then a good legendary is far better than 8 ranks of DA. You'd lose at most a minor bit of DPS but gain far more in stuff that will keep you alive.

However, the Strength line is still fairly decent to use while leveling up as it'll save you having to constantly upgrade weapons.

Regards,

Croaker

Raidi Sovin'faile · 11-29-2006, 10:35 AM

At the higher levels, the stats from one or even two items isn't going to make that huge a difference, especially with diminishing returns. I might be biased though, playing a Bruiser... as I get two +Agi skills where you guys get +def and +Wis.Also, something that I hadn't considered before, for tanking purposes... the Claw Reversal (the ability after the double attack part), gives +Riposte... it's possible that extra riposte is uncontested. Basically, the % given will remain the same regardless of the mob's "quality" (solo <-> epic). Might be something to consider.

Smilinglorax · 12-02-2006, 10:26 PM

psubullet wrote:type /weaponstats (or /weapons) in game while unarmed and armed to compare your unarmed attack speed/damage to your armed attack speed/damage

I am a lvl 34 monk. I have been using dual wield weapons (just treasured quested items) and did this test today and noticed that with my fists I am doing more damage as well and the delay is about the same as my when equipped with the dual wield. So I am taking it that I would be at more of an advantage to go bare fists? Have a lot to learn about my monk, but these forums are helping alot. Also I haven't spent any of my AA's (still reading the debates here and nervous about where to put them) so that can't be affecting the numbers I got from my tests.

Lildebbie · 12-03-2006, 10:51 AM

i originally started out doing Wis AA's then moving on to Int. For some reason, i got curious about bare fists and decided to respec. i went STR 4,4,7 ; STA 4 (that's all i have on KoS side atm lol). it seems i do a lot more going damage bare-fisted than with my adorned (+10 haste) Obsduin (fabled) Bo staff, but that may just be my perception. whether i do more damage or not is up for debate. one thing that is not is the fact that with Dragon Advance on, No one pulls aggro from me anymore. in Spider Stance i go 81% haste (all adept III or MasterI haste abilities and FBSS) and with the +20%DPS and 84% double attack. i tank a lot better. i do miss the extra stun from the wis line. on a PvP server stun = gift from the gods. i may wind up getting that back in there somehow, but probably not. i do still have a lot more AA's to get so i have room to experiment. i know i am rambling, but i just wanted to give some of my perspective to this as well. if your group likes paper tanks (thanks for that SoE avoidance works AWESOME) STR line may be something to consider.

Teksun · 12-04-2006, 07:25 PM

My biggest question is why do 'handwraps' count as weapons? They should do nothing but add stats and still count as empty hands...

Razorbak · 12-04-2006, 07:41 PM

Does anyone know at what speed fists are and what the speed cap is? Since Monk gets so many haste affects, i wonder if barehanded can be capped - might make barehanded a more viable option since you would have double attack to keep up with the number of attacks you get with duel wield, and if they can attack nearly as fast as a weapon, then the greater damage per hit should make it better.

11-21-2006, 01:07 AM	#4
Kainsei Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 449	eq2NT wrote: How is melee damage calculated? Is it your weapon base + attack power modifier? If so, is your unarmed base (without str AA) 0? When you're going unarmed your damage is the same of using a store-bought 2-handed weapon (those without stats and with low dmg compared to crafted/looted 2-handed weapons) of your current tier lvl.The str line AA allows you to double attack (96% chance at rank when you're unarmed.I'm not sure about auto-attack damage but CAs are affected by strength. Message Edited by Kainsei on 11-20-2006 12:08 PM __________________ (sorry for the bad english) Lanari the Jade Tiger - lvl 70 Monk - Storms Server Lovely Cirth

11-21-2006, 01:23 AM	#5
psubull General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 370	type /weaponstats (or /weapons) in game while unarmed and armed to compare your unarmed attack speed/damage to your armed attack speed/damage __________________

11-22-2006, 02:29 AM	#7
Shinku Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6	Along these lines, I still have to figure out which weapon is best for dps. I haven't really been able to come to any conclusions. I want to gear toward a dps more then tank. I know I will not get close to scouts or many casters, but still would like to beat our zerkers. Before EOF basically I could do 1k dps with a coercer in group (no complaints) And about 500-700ish in a group with no dps buffs. I Just want to know if I could do better by going 2handed instead.So if anyone has done "recent" tests along these lines, I'd love to hear about it. A 2 handed? or Duel Wield. Right now with my 50aa's in brawler, I have 4488 in both stamina and inteligence lines for refrence. (post EOF) When I duel wield, I use Fists of Bashing at (DR 57. and the lower damage Twin Calamite at (DR 55.0). When using a 2 handed I use Staff of Prismatic Keepers with (DR 94.7). Now if you do the "straight" math, the DR of the 2 duel wielders is greater then the 2 handed. But it "appears" that I do more dps with the 2h. So it just doesn't seem logical to me. Should I stick with 2h, or just try and get better duel wield weapons? My duel wield weapons around "chump change" as it is, though I know there are better. So if anyone has done any recent tests, or can explain why one wielding style is "better" for dps then the other, I'd like to hear about it. Will help me make decisions when it comes to AA's in my monk tree.Thanks in advance!

11-22-2006, 08:48 PM	#8
Dak Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 137	I am not using the STR AA line and see fair differences in the str boosts I get from equipment. Just by boosting your str with armor, jewelery, and what ever you can improve your damage. I can also see the difference when my str imbued ring kicks in too for that duration. Right now my lvl 27 monk has a str of 107 and will usually do about 45-75 dam per hit and with a Agl of 128 she hits fairly quick. Then add skills, boosts (ring will usually take her to 55-85 dam when the imbuing kicks in) and crits. __________________ The Anti-Crafting Dev has won a victory, How long before SOE feels the sting?

11-29-2006, 12:33 AM	#9
Bobbubski Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 221	Kainsei wrote: The str line AA allows you to double attack (96% chance at rank when you're unarmed. Message Edited by Kainsei on 11-20-2006 12:08 PM My question for this is when is the best point to go unarmed while working up the Str AA line? Should I wait unitl I am able to invest 1 point (or more) into the ability that speeds unarmed attack/increases double attack % or will the benefit begin earlier in the line? Thanks. __________________ ____________________________________________ EQ 2 - Giving HO's everywhere a good name

11-20-2006, 09:27 PM	#1
eq2NT Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 29	I've now played eq2 and my monk for a week and I am very puzzled as to the following. It appears that I do SIGNIFICANTLY (as in 1.5x - 2x) more damage unarmed than I do with weapons that I find. My monk is level 19 in all mastercrafted T2 gear (including jewelry). The weapon available to me is average 19.5 two-handed staff from Firemyst Gully. How exactly does the attack power work with weapons? Thank you in advance.

11-20-2006, 10:36 PM	#2
Baelas Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 44	Without the strength line of achievements, barehanded is not viable unless something has changed drastically since I last checked.What you are probably noticing is the fact that fists are actually very slow weapons, which means you hit seldom but hard.

11-20-2006, 11:30 PM	#3
eq2NT Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 29	How is melee damage calculated? Is it your weapon base + attack power modifier? If so, is your unarmed base (without str AA) 0?

11-21-2006, 02:59 AM	#6
eq2NT Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 29	WoW! This is revolutionary. Thank you!

11-29-2006, 05:18 AM	#10
Kainsei Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 449	Bobbubski wrote: My question for this is when is the best point to go unarmed while working up the Str AA line? Should I wait unitl I am able to invest 1 point (or more) into the ability that speeds unarmed attack/increases double attack % or will the benefit begin earlier in the line? Thanks. If you want to use the str line, it might be better for you to wait until you have 8 points to spend in the double attack / dps buff ability.In others words, you need to put at least 16 points in the str line (4 / 4 / . Message Edited by Kainsei on 11-28-2006 04:18 PM __________________ (sorry for the bad english) Lanari the Jade Tiger - lvl 70 Monk - Storms Server Lovely Cirth

11-29-2006, 05:56 AM	#11
Raidi Sovin'faile Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,320	For a player just starting and getting AA's at level 10, having around 12 points should net you about the same as rare crafted. Saves some cash, although you've lost some stats. Thereafter, every point you put in will net you better and better unarmed combat until you get to the point where only fabled weapons (good ones) will beat em. So I'd start at 12 if you want to do the change. As it is, you'll still benefit from the +Str, so you'll only feel behind between 5-11 points. It all depends on how quick you can get AAxp.

11-29-2006, 06:11 AM	#12
Bobbubski Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 221	thanks, folks. that helps a lot. __________________ ____________________________________________ EQ 2 - Giving HO's everywhere a good name

11-29-2006, 06:45 AM	#13
Sslarrga Loremaster Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 188	Actually, if you take in loss of HPS, Power, Stats, possible Avoidance, Procs (inherent or adorned), then a good legendary is far better than 8 ranks of DA. You'd lose at most a minor bit of DPS but gain far more in stuff that will keep you alive. However, the Strength line is still fairly decent to use while leveling up as it'll save you having to constantly upgrade weapons. Regards, Croaker

11-29-2006, 10:35 AM	#14
Raidi Sovin'faile Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,320	At the higher levels, the stats from one or even two items isn't going to make that huge a difference, especially with diminishing returns. I might be biased though, playing a Bruiser... as I get two +Agi skills where you guys get +def and +Wis.Also, something that I hadn't considered before, for tanking purposes... the Claw Reversal (the ability after the double attack part), gives +Riposte... it's possible that extra riposte is uncontested. Basically, the % given will remain the same regardless of the mob's "quality" (solo <-> epic). Might be something to consider.

12-02-2006, 10:26 PM	#15
Smilinglorax Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 9	psubullet wrote:type /weaponstats (or /weapons) in game while unarmed and armed to compare your unarmed attack speed/damage to your armed attack speed/damage I am a lvl 34 monk. I have been using dual wield weapons (just treasured quested items) and did this test today and noticed that with my fists I am doing more damage as well and the delay is about the same as my when equipped with the dual wield. So I am taking it that I would be at more of an advantage to go bare fists? Have a lot to learn about my monk, but these forums are helping alot. Also I haven't spent any of my AA's (still reading the debates here and nervous about where to put them) so that can't be affecting the numbers I got from my tests. __________________

12-03-2006, 10:51 AM	#16
Lildebbie Server: Nagafen Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 77	i originally started out doing Wis AA's then moving on to Int. For some reason, i got curious about bare fists and decided to respec. i went STR 4,4,7 ; STA 4 (that's all i have on KoS side atm lol). it seems i do a lot more going damage bare-fisted than with my adorned (+10 haste) Obsduin (fabled) Bo staff, but that may just be my perception. whether i do more damage or not is up for debate. one thing that is not is the fact that with Dragon Advance on, No one pulls aggro from me anymore. in Spider Stance i go 81% haste (all adept III or MasterI haste abilities and FBSS) and with the +20%DPS and 84% double attack. i tank a lot better. i do miss the extra stun from the wis line. on a PvP server stun = gift from the gods. i may wind up getting that back in there somehow, but probably not. i do still have a lot more AA's to get so i have room to experiment. i know i am rambling, but i just wanted to give some of my perspective to this as well. if your group likes paper tanks (thanks for that SoE avoidance works AWESOME) STR line may be something to consider.

12-04-2006, 07:25 PM	#17
Teksun Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,048	My biggest question is why do 'handwraps' count as weapons? They should do nothing but add stats and still count as empty hands... __________________ Nerf the Hobbits

12-04-2006, 07:41 PM	#18
Razorbak Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 90	Does anyone know at what speed fists are and what the speed cap is? Since Monk gets so many haste affects, i wonder if barehanded can be capped - might make barehanded a more viable option since you would have double attack to keep up with the number of attacks you get with duel wield, and if they can attack nearly as fast as a weapon, then the greater damage per hit should make it better.