Tanking Changes

Morrolan V · 11-15-2006, 11:39 PM

Last weekend, I tanked the front of Nizara with one healer. Got through 4 names - when we had clean pulls, we basically never were at risk, I got into orange on a couple of names.

Last night, I tanked all the way through Crypt of Valdoon and some in Mistmoore. The group setup was roughly equivalent both times - me, pally, troub, chanter, healer, with a wizzy in one case and a ranger in the other.

I was taking MORE and HARDER hits post-patch. I was frequently in orange on the trash mobs.

In particular, it does not appear to me that they fixed the issue with high end names ignoring avoidance.

Illustrious · 11-15-2006, 11:45 PM

Yup welcome to SOEs vision of "fixing" avoidance tanking. They lower our Avoidance and still keep mobs with high"to hit" valaues. Then just to rub a little salt in the wound they let plate tanks with their superior mitigation get the only avoidance check in the game that is not contested versus mobs skill.

Limoj · 11-15-2006, 11:55 PM

yea [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]?

DynamicPerforman · 11-16-2006, 12:25 AM

Did you get a 2nd earring? Did you wear a cloak? How many AA do you have so far?

Do you have the god pet that gives 28 to a stat?

A:

Your weaker than you were, yes. But you can become MUCH more powerfull then before.

Gungo · 11-16-2006, 12:34 AM

DynamicPerformance wrote:

Did you get a 2nd earring? Did you wear a cloak? How many AA do you have so far?

Do you have the god pet that gives 28 to a stat?

A:

Your weaker than you were, yes. But you can become MUCH more powerfull then before.

Yes i had both mitigation earrings, yes i had a rare tradeskill cloak, i alrady had 6 aa's before i logge doff last night. And i got my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] beat down in Mm castle vs trash not named. This also happened in beta to a point.

I alreayd feedbacked the issue. On one account lots of people are parsing avodiance as a whole as not checking each skill. More so avoidance is severly reduced vs higher lvl named heroics and epics. Reducing its effectiveness. While plates deal with this to a degree a mobs offensive skills does not reduce block. So i had a talk with lockeye today and he said he will look into the avodiance skill checks and said that a portion of deflection will be uncontested but was not ready for the patch. So avodiance tanking will be alot more meaningful soon.

Message Edited by Gungo on 11-15-2006 11:35 AM

selch · 11-16-2006, 01:01 AM

Gungo wrote:

While plates deal with this to a degree a mobs offensive skills does not reduce block. So i had a talk with lockeye today and he said he will look into the avodiance skill checks and said that a portion of deflection will be uncontested but was not ready for the patch. So avodiance tanking will be alot more meaningful soon.

I wish he does. what I notice today is very interesting, I may be wrong so not taking it as seriously much but, tested slightly with a healer just with taunts, against one mob, avoidance looks finer (without any stuns or stiffles), but against two or more mobs (all of them has more hit rate each)

I don't want to mention in another SOE game, there was similar avoidance mechanics, if more than 4 over you, basically 5th and more hitting you without an avoidance check. I just hope it is not same bug here.

Message Edited by selch on 11-15-2006 12:01 PM

Morrolan V · 11-16-2006, 01:13 AM

DynamicPerformance wrote:

Did you get a 2nd earring? Did you wear a cloak? How many AA do you have so far?

Do you have the god pet that gives 28 to a stat?

A:

Your weaker than you were, yes. But you can become MUCH more powerfull then before.

Yes, Yes, 6, Yes.

The problem is real.

Gungo, I am glad to hear that you were able to get in touch with Lockeye. Something clearly is not right - whether it's missed checks or something in the way they did the fall off curve for avoidance against higher end content, or something else altogether.

DynamicPerforman · 11-16-2006, 01:49 AM

I tanked MM fine :smileysad: I'm having trouble understanding the problem I guess.

In fact, I already got my avoidence to 72% grouped. And I generally tank with around 45% mit (with the Mountain stance up).

Maybe I havn't tanked ENOUGH mobs. I'll be sure to go out and tank some more tonight :smileyvery-happy: Yes... must tank more mobs.

Mind listing what AA's you use to tank?

Gungo · 11-16-2006, 02:05 AM

Me personally 4/4/8/4 sta and 4/4/8/5/8 int so far only 5 in heal 1 in mit buff.

i tanked acedemia, obelisk and valdoon well. So might i add the swashy who tanked the name on the beast tamer who mezzed me.

The problem lies in yellow+ heroic mobs, + named, esecially epics.

MM Castle not catacombs is the level generally, not including the solo mobs at entrance. clear the main hall and then start clearing downstairs in a group and keep an eye on how much you are avoiding. Its aprox 20%. Better yet try tanking a x2 epics up top and get a good laugh at being 1 shotted.

lilmohi · 11-16-2006, 02:08 AM

I did a fairly decent job tanking last night but i did notice a few things that have changed:

1. Taunts were getting resisted much more, it wasn't unusual to get 2 consecutive resists to my M2 group taunt.

2. I seemed to be missing a lot more than i used to in defensive stance, which complicated the taunting process more.

3. Mob encounters in EoF dungeons seemed to be much harder on the whole, i at least don't recall previously running into nearly as many trash encounters that had two ^^^ heroic mobs linked, or a ^^^ and 2-3 ^^ mobs.

I'm spec'd out more for dps than tanking but i still tanked a couple named in the new obelisk instance w/o going much into the orange.

Gungo · 11-16-2006, 02:16 AM

lilmohi wrote:

I did a fairly decent job tanking last night but i did notice a few things that have changed:

1. Taunts were getting resisted much more, it wasn't unusual to get 2 consecutive resists to my M2 group taunt. M2 is the same resist % as M1, but yes skill buffs are increasingly more important. Oddly enough disruption helps us land our taunt.

2. I seemed to be missing a lot more than i used to in defensive stance, which complicated the taunting process more. This is also tied to the new skill ruleset. As people complained +skills had little meaning the new system makes +skills alot more important now. Its a catch 22 i suppose, but try midstance and you will notice alot less misses. (or group w a warden). The loss of skills in the def stance makes hitting mobs that much more problematic.

3. Mob encounters in EoF dungeons seemed to be much harder on the whole, i at least don't recall previously running into nearly as many trash encounters that had two ^^^ heroic mobs linked, or a ^^^ and 2-3 ^^ mobs. This is true i call it the nizara syndrome and I like it. it makes crowd control more important and makes proximity pulling alot more important. In general it makes combat challenging, which is overall a good thing.

I'm spec'd out more for dps than tanking but i still tanked a couple named in the new obelisk instance w/o going much into the orange.
Dont feel bad i am more spec'd for tanking and get my rear beat too. I will just be happy when they fix deflection to be uncontested and work on named/epics when needed.

DynamicPerforman · 11-16-2006, 02:20 AM

Ok heres something I tested extensivly, caluculated till my head hurt, and finally decided on..

The final INT ability is worthless. If a mob hits you once for X damage and it drops you to 30%, the next hit (even with the new mit) will kill you if it is the same amount. I tested it on epics, I tested it on heroics. And having it added no survivability, or even more dps (kindof hard to stay below 30% with epic aoe's, and healers who just don't understand).

Also, why do you have dps abilities selected when your trying to tank?

This is the way I am set up:

8/4/4/8/8 STA

4/4/4/5/0 INT

5 sprint, 4 heal.

NOTE: I am on a pvp server, so some tanking must be sacrificed for PVP survivability (teleport, sprinting)

I'll be going deeper into MMC tonight, so we'll see how it all works out.

Gungo · 11-16-2006, 03:46 AM

DynamicPerformance wrote:

Ok heres something I tested extensivly, caluculated till my head hurt, and finally decided on..

The final INT ability is worthless. If a mob hits you once for X damage and it drops you to 30%, the next hit (even with the new mit) will kill you if it is the same amount. I tested it on epics, I tested it on heroics. And having it added no survivability, or even more dps (kindof hard to stay below 30% with epic aoe's, and healers who just don't understand).

Also, why do you have dps abilities selected when your trying to tank?

This is the way I am set up:

8/4/4/8/8 STA

4/4/4/5/0 INT

5 sprint, 4 heal.

NOTE: I am on a pvp server, so some tanking must be sacrificed for PVP survivability (teleport, sprinting)

I'll be going deeper into MMC tonight, so we'll see how it all works out.

The reason i took 4/4/8/4 stamina and 4/4/8/5/8 was because in raid gear w a dirge i was max parry at 420 (previous cap) and 415 deflection (needed matron pants), i maxed proc and crit because those are the 2 biggest dps boosters and the final int ability seemed useful to me. I know several times i have been sitting in the red thanking the int ability for not letting me die that last hit. Under the new system 1400 mit raid buffed adds about ~1.5-2% mitigation. So we will see how it goes i still have some feedback and testing to finish on this expansion.

My next topic will probably inculde turning retribution of stone from riposte to 20% of deflections after deflection becomes uncontested.

DynamicPerforman · 11-17-2006, 04:31 PM

Tested it. Dosn't work well enough.

I tanked mistmore with it, It went ok.

Went back into mistmore without it, with the line up I said earlier, and it was a breeze. (similar group setup, we lost a dirge and got a troub)

Also went in with a pally tanking in fully fabled armor and all mastered. He got eaten up. I ended up tanking.

Jobeson · 11-20-2006, 07:11 PM

Ya know I have only been back for a week but from what I understand, being better than a paladin is not saying all that much.

11-16-2006, 12:25 AM	#4
DynamicPerforman General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 298	Did you get a 2nd earring? Did you wear a cloak? How many AA do you have so far? Do you have the god pet that gives 28 to a stat? A: Your weaker than you were, yes. But you can become MUCH more powerfull then before. __________________

11-16-2006, 12:34 AM	#5
Gungo Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Crushbone Posts: 5,378	DynamicPerformance wrote: Did you get a 2nd earring? Did you wear a cloak? How many AA do you have so far? Do you have the god pet that gives 28 to a stat? A: Your weaker than you were, yes. But you can become MUCH more powerfull then before. Yes i had both mitigation earrings, yes i had a rare tradeskill cloak, i alrady had 6 aa's before i logge doff last night. And i got my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] beat down in Mm castle vs trash not named. This also happened in beta to a point. I alreayd feedbacked the issue. On one account lots of people are parsing avodiance as a whole as not checking each skill. More so avoidance is severly reduced vs higher lvl named heroics and epics. Reducing its effectiveness. While plates deal with this to a degree a mobs offensive skills does not reduce block. So i had a talk with lockeye today and he said he will look into the avodiance skill checks and said that a portion of deflection will be uncontested but was not ready for the patch. So avodiance tanking will be alot more meaningful soon. Message Edited by Gungo on 11-15-2006 11:35 AM

11-16-2006, 01:01 AM	#6
selch Lord Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Istanbul, Turkiye Posts: 1,305	Gungo wrote: While plates deal with this to a degree a mobs offensive skills does not reduce block. So i had a talk with lockeye today and he said he will look into the avodiance skill checks and said that a portion of deflection will be uncontested but was not ready for the patch. So avodiance tanking will be alot more meaningful soon. I wish he does. what I notice today is very interesting, I may be wrong so not taking it as seriously much but, tested slightly with a healer just with taunts, against one mob, avoidance looks finer (without any stuns or stiffles), but against two or more mobs (all of them has more hit rate each) I don't want to mention in another SOE game, there was similar avoidance mechanics, if more than 4 over you, basically 5th and more hitting you without an avoidance check. I just hope it is not same bug here. Message Edited by selch on 11-15-2006 12:01 PM __________________

11-16-2006, 01:13 AM	#7
Morrolan V Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 624	DynamicPerformance wrote: Did you get a 2nd earring? Did you wear a cloak? How many AA do you have so far? Do you have the god pet that gives 28 to a stat? A: Your weaker than you were, yes. But you can become MUCH more powerfull then before. Yes, Yes, 6, Yes. The problem is real. Gungo, I am glad to hear that you were able to get in touch with Lockeye. Something clearly is not right - whether it's missed checks or something in the way they did the fall off curve for avoidance against higher end content, or something else altogether.

11-16-2006, 01:49 AM	#8
DynamicPerforman General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 298	I tanked MM fine :smileysad: I'm having trouble understanding the problem I guess. In fact, I already got my avoidence to 72% grouped. And I generally tank with around 45% mit (with the Mountain stance up). Maybe I havn't tanked ENOUGH mobs. I'll be sure to go out and tank some more tonight :smileyvery-happy: Yes... must tank more mobs. Mind listing what AA's you use to tank? __________________

11-15-2006, 11:39 PM	#1
Morrolan V Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 624	Last weekend, I tanked the front of Nizara with one healer. Got through 4 names - when we had clean pulls, we basically never were at risk, I got into orange on a couple of names. Last night, I tanked all the way through Crypt of Valdoon and some in Mistmoore. The group setup was roughly equivalent both times - me, pally, troub, chanter, healer, with a wizzy in one case and a ranger in the other. I was taking MORE and HARDER hits post-patch. I was frequently in orange on the trash mobs. In particular, it does not appear to me that they fixed the issue with high end names ignoring avoidance.

11-15-2006, 11:45 PM	#2
Illustrious Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 226	Yup welcome to SOEs vision of "fixing" avoidance tanking. They lower our Avoidance and still keep mobs with high"to hit" valaues. Then just to rub a little salt in the wound they let plate tanks with their superior mitigation get the only avoidance check in the game that is not contested versus mobs skill.

11-15-2006, 11:55 PM	#3
Limoj EQ2-Compendium Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: West Chester, PA Posts: 46	yea [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]?

11-16-2006, 02:05 AM	#9
Gungo Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Crushbone Posts: 5,378	Me personally 4/4/8/4 sta and 4/4/8/5/8 int so far only 5 in heal 1 in mit buff. i tanked acedemia, obelisk and valdoon well. So might i add the swashy who tanked the name on the beast tamer who mezzed me. The problem lies in yellow+ heroic mobs, + named, esecially epics. MM Castle not catacombs is the level generally, not including the solo mobs at entrance. clear the main hall and then start clearing downstairs in a group and keep an eye on how much you are avoiding. Its aprox 20%. Better yet try tanking a x2 epics up top and get a good laugh at being 1 shotted.

11-16-2006, 02:08 AM	#10
lilmohi Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 303	I did a fairly decent job tanking last night but i did notice a few things that have changed: 1. Taunts were getting resisted much more, it wasn't unusual to get 2 consecutive resists to my M2 group taunt. 2. I seemed to be missing a lot more than i used to in defensive stance, which complicated the taunting process more. 3. Mob encounters in EoF dungeons seemed to be much harder on the whole, i at least don't recall previously running into nearly as many trash encounters that had two ^^^ heroic mobs linked, or a ^^^ and 2-3 ^^ mobs. I'm spec'd out more for dps than tanking but i still tanked a couple named in the new obelisk instance w/o going much into the orange.

11-16-2006, 02:16 AM	#11
Gungo Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Crushbone Posts: 5,378	lilmohi wrote: I did a fairly decent job tanking last night but i did notice a few things that have changed: 1. Taunts were getting resisted much more, it wasn't unusual to get 2 consecutive resists to my M2 group taunt. M2 is the same resist % as M1, but yes skill buffs are increasingly more important. Oddly enough disruption helps us land our taunt. 2. I seemed to be missing a lot more than i used to in defensive stance, which complicated the taunting process more. This is also tied to the new skill ruleset. As people complained +skills had little meaning the new system makes +skills alot more important now. Its a catch 22 i suppose, but try midstance and you will notice alot less misses. (or group w a warden). The loss of skills in the def stance makes hitting mobs that much more problematic. 3. Mob encounters in EoF dungeons seemed to be much harder on the whole, i at least don't recall previously running into nearly as many trash encounters that had two ^^^ heroic mobs linked, or a ^^^ and 2-3 ^^ mobs. This is true i call it the nizara syndrome and I like it. it makes crowd control more important and makes proximity pulling alot more important. In general it makes combat challenging, which is overall a good thing. I'm spec'd out more for dps than tanking but i still tanked a couple named in the new obelisk instance w/o going much into the orange. Dont feel bad i am more spec'd for tanking and get my rear beat too. I will just be happy when they fix deflection to be uncontested and work on named/epics when needed.

11-16-2006, 02:20 AM	#12
DynamicPerforman General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 298	Ok heres something I tested extensivly, caluculated till my head hurt, and finally decided on.. The final INT ability is worthless. If a mob hits you once for X damage and it drops you to 30%, the next hit (even with the new mit) will kill you if it is the same amount. I tested it on epics, I tested it on heroics. And having it added no survivability, or even more dps (kindof hard to stay below 30% with epic aoe's, and healers who just don't understand). Also, why do you have dps abilities selected when your trying to tank? This is the way I am set up: 8/4/4/8/8 STA 4/4/4/5/0 INT 5 sprint, 4 heal. NOTE: I am on a pvp server, so some tanking must be sacrificed for PVP survivability (teleport, sprinting) I'll be going deeper into MMC tonight, so we'll see how it all works out. __________________

11-16-2006, 03:46 AM	#13
Gungo Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Crushbone Posts: 5,378	DynamicPerformance wrote: Ok heres something I tested extensivly, caluculated till my head hurt, and finally decided on.. The final INT ability is worthless. If a mob hits you once for X damage and it drops you to 30%, the next hit (even with the new mit) will kill you if it is the same amount. I tested it on epics, I tested it on heroics. And having it added no survivability, or even more dps (kindof hard to stay below 30% with epic aoe's, and healers who just don't understand). Also, why do you have dps abilities selected when your trying to tank? This is the way I am set up: 8/4/4/8/8 STA 4/4/4/5/0 INT 5 sprint, 4 heal. NOTE: I am on a pvp server, so some tanking must be sacrificed for PVP survivability (teleport, sprinting) I'll be going deeper into MMC tonight, so we'll see how it all works out. The reason i took 4/4/8/4 stamina and 4/4/8/5/8 was because in raid gear w a dirge i was max parry at 420 (previous cap) and 415 deflection (needed matron pants), i maxed proc and crit because those are the 2 biggest dps boosters and the final int ability seemed useful to me. I know several times i have been sitting in the red thanking the int ability for not letting me die that last hit. Under the new system 1400 mit raid buffed adds about ~1.5-2% mitigation. So we will see how it goes i still have some feedback and testing to finish on this expansion. My next topic will probably inculde turning retribution of stone from riposte to 20% of deflections after deflection becomes uncontested.

11-17-2006, 04:31 PM	#14
DynamicPerforman General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 298	Tested it. Dosn't work well enough. I tanked mistmore with it, It went ok. Went back into mistmore without it, with the line up I said earlier, and it was a breeze. (similar group setup, we lost a dirge and got a troub) Also went in with a pally tanking in fully fabled armor and all mastered. He got eaten up. I ended up tanking. __________________

11-20-2006, 07:11 PM	#15
Jobeson Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 127	Ya know I have only been back for a week but from what I understand, being better than a paladin is not saying all that much.