Lvl 54 training, the "new" Silent Palm, and some other misc beta stuff -- again.

Gaige · 09-06-2005, 09:51 PM

Personal opinion? Take Inner Calm and then upgrade Calm Tranquility to adept 3. A 1% or less difference in group haste isn't as huge as 69 str 104 wisdom, which the master II of Inner Calm offers.

Next up, a big issue with everyone, Silent Palm:

This is hopefully the *last* change to this spell, and I hope we see this go live. What we have here is a 100% stifle even against epics, that can last a maximum of 11 seconds (with 30 second recast). Now, as the description says this might break every time the target takes damage. But let me assure you being able to stifle them is better than nothing at all. Thanks SOE, this one is good, lets not change it anymore. Oh and just so you know, we have *two* stuns that affect epics. They are the charging tiger upgrade and the biting mantis upgrade. Both cast knockdown, stun, and blur vision. <3

Next up a persona screen and some personal avoidance observations:

This is I believe master I defensive stance, master II inner calm, 3 bloodstone rings (agi/sta/str), two +12 str dolls, mostly str traits, max pwr traits, all mental traits and a mix of t5 gear and t6 merchant raid test fabled.

Now, on to the defensive buff changes. The +28 from our defensive stance gave me a little over 4% avoidance. Very nice. The +8 parry on my ACGF gives me .7% avoidance. Now... haha, switching out the +12 str dolls for +12 agi dolls (+24 total agility) gives me a whopping... .6% avoidance. So it takes a little over 3x as much agility as parry for same net effect to avoidance.

Oh yeah and my mit in this persona is at 44.1%. The negative offensive traits which blurred for some reason are 274/300 for crushing/slashing/piercing.

I've asked MG a couple things, like if our "mixed" stance will always require 5 concentration, if any other classes will ever be able to buff deflection, and something else I think. I know dirges or troubs can buff +parry on beta and we all know that lots of classes can buff +defense, but afaik only Transcendant Vision (which auto cancels if target gets out of its 20m range) and our defensive stance buff avoidance. I'm hoping this can be changed as +deflection is our "niche" and our edge in avoid over the other fighters *BUT* its not as widely buffable. In my opinion, it should be. I expressed maybe giving an additional +deflection buff to say, shaman, or just adding a +deflection line to an existing buff.

We'll see.

Message Edited by Gaige on 09-06-2005 10:57 AM

Grabaan · 09-06-2005, 09:56 PM

I like the newest change to Silent Palm, and I agree with your Master II choice. I'll likely go the same route. Any experimentation with raid mobs? Are you and Noah taking turns? Still make more sense to use a guardian, or are the roles expanded a bit as intended?

Gaige · 09-06-2005, 10:00 PM

Grabaan wrote:
I like the newest change to Silent Palm, and I agree with your Master II choice.

I'll likely go the same route.

Any experimentation with raid mobs? Are you and Noah taking turns? Still make more sense to use a guardian, or are the roles expanded a bit as intended?

We haven't raid tested since the 9/2 update went live, hopefully we'll get on that this week. Long holiday weekend for us and SOE.

Normally we've been using Noah because its our baseline against live. With the majority of raid testing they just want to see if its doable, what the challenge is like, how it compares to live, etc. So we use Noah because we know what to expect against the mobs currently in live when Noah is tanking. That said I am gonna do some raid tanking, because Noah and I are both very interested in the differences between the classes, especially with all the huge drama going on lately.

I believe guardians will always have the edge, as it should be, but I do *not* believe they will be the only capable raid tanks. Perhaps against one or two ridiculously hard mobs, but not against the majority of raid stuff out there. I think most fighters will be able to tank x4 after the changes, but probably at some sort of disadvantage, like more healing needed, less mana efficient, more DPS needed or something. Which I'm fine with.

At least that seems to be how its shaping up.

Grabaan · 09-06-2005, 10:08 PM

I believe guardians will always have the edge, as it should be, but I do *not* believe they will be the only capable raid tanks. Perhaps against one or two ridiculously hard mobs, but not against the majority of raid stuff out there. I think most fighters will be able to tank x4 after the changes, but probably at some sort of disadvantage, like more healing needed, less mana efficient, more DPS needed or something. Which I'm fine with.

I agree. I'm not looking to shake up the way our guild operates either. I mearly hope that offtanking or occasionally main tanking some of the encounters is more achievable than it is on live atm. Especially in situations where you have to make every slot of a raid count, I'm mainly concerned with us being able to efficiently offtank in situations enough that we don't need 5 healers vs a guardian's 3 etc just to stay up. Tanking groups has never been a problem for me, but proving to be a worthy offtank when healers are a premium just doesn't work out on live as things stand before the revamp. Hopefully, and from what I've seen, we'll at least be more capable at our intended role than before.

bonesbro · 09-06-2005, 11:18 PM

Hmm. Given those choices, I might take Agitate Spirit instead. What's the difference between Inner Calm M2 and, say, Adept1? I didn't see that one in the 51..60 adept1 thread. I'm not really excited about burning an M2 to get +10 str/wis, an extra 1% group haste is indeed a waste, and I'm really not interested in another 50 damage from a master damage skill.

Of course, the 50 masters are pretty common from Splitpaw, and a M1 to M2 upgrade is really a waste.

Gaige · 09-06-2005, 11:27 PM

bonesbro wrote:

Hmm. Given those choices, I might take Agitate Spirit instead. What's the difference between Inner Calm M2 and, say, Adept1? I didn't see that one in the 51..60 adept1 thread. I'm not really excited about burning an M2 to get +10 str/wis, an extra 1% group haste is indeed a waste, and I'm really not interested in another 50 damage from a master damage skill.

Of course, the 50 masters are pretty common from Splitpaw, and a M1 to M2 upgrade is really a waste.

I'm not sure I've only ever had the master and the app1. You can prob find screenie of app1 and guess though.

Everything scales the same though really, so the extra stats will be akin to the increase in taunt, and I have agitate spirit master 1.

So in my situation, there is really only one decent choice.

Grabaan · 09-06-2005, 11:35 PM

Yep, I'm in the same boat. Both my single taunt and Agitate Spirit are Master I, so choosing the taunt doesn't make sense. As to whether the statsfrom Inner Calm are more meaningful than the other choices, hard to say.

Gaige · 09-06-2005, 11:48 PM

Grabaan wrote:
As to whether the statsfrom Inner Calm are more meaningful than the other choices, hard to say.

I don't really think its going to matter that much. Whether its a few more str/wis, a couple % of haste or a bit higher dmg on our DD.

Cisgo · 09-07-2005, 12:41 AM

I have been petitioning in beta to get Agitate Spirit included in Master 2 list (being we are becoming tanks) and I am glad it is available, and I hope it stays. Group taunt is one of the monk's weak points, this upgrade will help alot. If you are not mastered in this skill, I believe this is an easy choice over the others.

JudyJudy · 09-07-2005, 01:16 AM

Just a quick question for Gaige - a bit off topic, but I have to ask.

I notice that your strength is just plain off the wall, Gaige. :smileyhappy:

Is this what most monks gravitate toward as they reach the end game, or is there a benefit to switch between having high agi/sta/str depending on the situation?

What are your personal preferences?

Gaige · 09-07-2005, 01:52 AM

JudyJudy wrote:

Just a quick question for Gaige - a bit off topic, but I have to ask.

I notice that your strength is just plain off the wall, Gaige. :smileyhappy:

Is this what most monks gravitate toward as they reach the end game, or is there a benefit to switch between having high agi/sta/str depending on the situation?

What are your personal preferences?

Hmm. They've changed. I used to be all agility, then it got nerfed. So I was like, aight then I'm going all STA and HP traits. Then SOE lowered the affects of STA (go figure). On beta the effects of agility (as of this point) are pretty crappy. It takes a ton of it to affect avoidance. Buffing deflection, parry, defense is way more effective and easier to do for the most part.

STR, while not some huge glorius upgrade, does effect your damage bonus up to 10x your level, so 500 at 50, 600 at 60. Also, due to our new STR/WIS buff and how a lot of gear drops are, STR is kind of easy to get up there in numbers. So even though the effect is minimal, you can kind of combat that by getting bunches of it all at once.

Since the itemization in DoF should be more like AoW and BaoW I just imagine this trend will continue. Although due to lack of +deflection buffs in the game I'm secretly hoping that the person doing the items sneaks some brawler only +deflection gear in.

I think balanced stats to 100 or 150 is a good start. You don't want any one huge [Removed for Content] stat, especially when you are talking about those stat levels. But once your primary three stats get over 150 or 175, then you can start to focus on one without hurting yourself much because buffed you'll end up over 200 in all anyway.

As of now, with the way I play, what I'm doing and what I've seen on beta, I prefer to focus on STR. That, like everything, may change.

JudyJudy · 09-07-2005, 08:35 PM

Gaige wrote:

JudyJudy wrote:

Just a quick question for Gaige - a bit off topic, but I have to ask.

I notice that your strength is just plain off the wall, Gaige. :smileyhappy:

Is this what most monks gravitate toward as they reach the end game, or is there a benefit to switch between having high agi/sta/str depending on the situation?

What are your personal preferences?

Hmm. They've changed. I used to be all agility, then it got nerfed. So I was like, aight then I'm going all STA and HP traits. Then SOE lowered the affects of STA (go figure). On beta the effects of agility (as of this point) are pretty crappy. It takes a ton of it to affect avoidance. Buffing deflection, parry, defense is way more effective and easier to do for the most part.

STR, while not some huge glorius upgrade, does effect your damage bonus up to 10x your level, so 500 at 50, 600 at 60. Also, due to our new STR/WIS buff and how a lot of gear drops are, STR is kind of easy to get up there in numbers. So even though the effect is minimal, you can kind of combat that by getting bunches of it all at once.

Since the itemization in DoF should be more like AoW and BaoW I just imagine this trend will continue. Although due to lack of +deflection buffs in the game I'm secretly hoping that the person doing the items sneaks some brawler only +deflection gear in.

I think balanced stats to 100 or 150 is a good start. You don't want any one huge [Removed for Content] stat, especially when you are talking about those stat levels. But once your primary three stats get over 150 or 175, then you can start to focus on one without hurting yourself much because buffed you'll end up over 200 in all anyway.

As of now, with the way I play, what I'm doing and what I've seen on beta, I prefer to focus on STR. That, like everything, may change.

Makes perfect sense, Gaige. Thanks for the reply. :smileyhappy:

Message Edited by JudyJudy on 09-07-2005 09:35 AM

09-06-2005, 09:51 PM	#1
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Personal opinion? Take Inner Calm and then upgrade Calm Tranquility to adept 3. A 1% or less difference in group haste isn't as huge as 69 str 104 wisdom, which the master II of Inner Calm offers. Next up, a big issue with everyone, Silent Palm: This is hopefully the last change to this spell, and I hope we see this go live. What we have here is a 100% stifle even against epics, that can last a maximum of 11 seconds (with 30 second recast). Now, as the description says this might break every time the target takes damage. But let me assure you being able to stifle them is better than nothing at all. Thanks SOE, this one is good, lets not change it anymore. Oh and just so you know, we have two stuns that affect epics. They are the charging tiger upgrade and the biting mantis upgrade. Both cast knockdown, stun, and blur vision. <3 Next up a persona screen and some personal avoidance observations: This is I believe master I defensive stance, master II inner calm, 3 bloodstone rings (agi/sta/str), two +12 str dolls, mostly str traits, max pwr traits, all mental traits and a mix of t5 gear and t6 merchant raid test fabled. Now, on to the defensive buff changes. The +28 from our defensive stance gave me a little over 4% avoidance. Very nice. The +8 parry on my ACGF gives me .7% avoidance. Now... haha, switching out the +12 str dolls for +12 agi dolls (+24 total agility) gives me a whopping... .6% avoidance. So it takes a little over 3x as much agility as parry for same net effect to avoidance. Oh yeah and my mit in this persona is at 44.1%. The negative offensive traits which blurred for some reason are 274/300 for crushing/slashing/piercing. I've asked MG a couple things, like if our "mixed" stance will always require 5 concentration, if any other classes will ever be able to buff deflection, and something else I think. I know dirges or troubs can buff +parry on beta and we all know that lots of classes can buff +defense, but afaik only Transcendant Vision (which auto cancels if target gets out of its 20m range) and our defensive stance buff avoidance. I'm hoping this can be changed as +deflection is our "niche" and our edge in avoid over the other fighters BUT its not as widely buffable. In my opinion, it should be. I expressed maybe giving an additional +deflection buff to say, shaman, or just adding a +deflection line to an existing buff. We'll see. Message Edited by Gaige on 09-06-2005 10:57 AM __________________

09-06-2005, 10:00 PM	#3
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Grabaan wrote: I like the newest change to Silent Palm, and I agree with your Master II choice. I'll likely go the same route. Any experimentation with raid mobs? Are you and Noah taking turns? Still make more sense to use a guardian, or are the roles expanded a bit as intended? We haven't raid tested since the 9/2 update went live, hopefully we'll get on that this week. Long holiday weekend for us and SOE. Normally we've been using Noah because its our baseline against live. With the majority of raid testing they just want to see if its doable, what the challenge is like, how it compares to live, etc. So we use Noah because we know what to expect against the mobs currently in live when Noah is tanking. That said I am gonna do some raid tanking, because Noah and I are both very interested in the differences between the classes, especially with all the huge drama going on lately. I believe guardians will always have the edge, as it should be, but I do not believe they will be the only capable raid tanks. Perhaps against one or two ridiculously hard mobs, but not against the majority of raid stuff out there. I think most fighters will be able to tank x4 after the changes, but probably at some sort of disadvantage, like more healing needed, less mana efficient, more DPS needed or something. Which I'm fine with. At least that seems to be how its shaping up. __________________

09-06-2005, 11:18 PM	#5
bonesbro Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 651	Hmm. Given those choices, I might take Agitate Spirit instead. What's the difference between Inner Calm M2 and, say, Adept1? I didn't see that one in the 51..60 adept1 thread. I'm not really excited about burning an M2 to get +10 str/wis, an extra 1% group haste is indeed a waste, and I'm really not interested in another 50 damage from a master damage skill. Of course, the 50 masters are pretty common from Splitpaw, and a M1 to M2 upgrade is really a waste. __________________ Legond of Najena, Monk Ancient.

09-06-2005, 11:27 PM	#6
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	bonesbro wrote: Hmm. Given those choices, I might take Agitate Spirit instead. What's the difference between Inner Calm M2 and, say, Adept1? I didn't see that one in the 51..60 adept1 thread. I'm not really excited about burning an M2 to get +10 str/wis, an extra 1% group haste is indeed a waste, and I'm really not interested in another 50 damage from a master damage skill. Of course, the 50 masters are pretty common from Splitpaw, and a M1 to M2 upgrade is really a waste. I'm not sure I've only ever had the master and the app1. You can prob find screenie of app1 and guess though. Everything scales the same though really, so the extra stats will be akin to the increase in taunt, and I have agitate spirit master 1. So in my situation, there is really only one decent choice. __________________

09-06-2005, 11:48 PM	#8
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Grabaan wrote: As to whether the statsfrom Inner Calm are more meaningful than the other choices, hard to say. I don't really think its going to matter that much. Whether its a few more str/wis, a couple % of haste or a bit higher dmg on our DD. __________________

09-06-2005, 09:56 PM	#2
Grabaan Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 135	I like the newest change to Silent Palm, and I agree with your Master II choice. I'll likely go the same route. Any experimentation with raid mobs? Are you and Noah taking turns? Still make more sense to use a guardian, or are the roles expanded a bit as intended?

09-06-2005, 10:08 PM	#4
Grabaan Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 135	I believe guardians will always have the edge, as it should be, but I do not believe they will be the only capable raid tanks. Perhaps against one or two ridiculously hard mobs, but not against the majority of raid stuff out there. I think most fighters will be able to tank x4 after the changes, but probably at some sort of disadvantage, like more healing needed, less mana efficient, more DPS needed or something. Which I'm fine with. I agree. I'm not looking to shake up the way our guild operates either. I mearly hope that offtanking or occasionally main tanking some of the encounters is more achievable than it is on live atm. Especially in situations where you have to make every slot of a raid count, I'm mainly concerned with us being able to efficiently offtank in situations enough that we don't need 5 healers vs a guardian's 3 etc just to stay up. Tanking groups has never been a problem for me, but proving to be a worthy offtank when healers are a premium just doesn't work out on live as things stand before the revamp. Hopefully, and from what I've seen, we'll at least be more capable at our intended role than before.

09-06-2005, 11:35 PM	#7
Grabaan Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 135	Yep, I'm in the same boat. Both my single taunt and Agitate Spirit are Master I, so choosing the taunt doesn't make sense. As to whether the statsfrom Inner Calm are more meaningful than the other choices, hard to say.

09-07-2005, 12:41 AM	#9
Cisgo Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 62	I have been petitioning in beta to get Agitate Spirit included in Master 2 list (being we are becoming tanks) and I am glad it is available, and I hope it stays. Group taunt is one of the monk's weak points, this upgrade will help alot. If you are not mastered in this skill, I believe this is an easy choice over the others.

09-07-2005, 01:16 AM	#10
JudyJudy Lord Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 368	Just a quick question for Gaige - a bit off topic, but I have to ask. I notice that your strength is just plain off the wall, Gaige. :smileyhappy: Is this what most monks gravitate toward as they reach the end game, or is there a benefit to switch between having high agi/sta/str depending on the situation? What are your personal preferences? __________________

09-07-2005, 01:52 AM	#11
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	JudyJudy wrote: Just a quick question for Gaige - a bit off topic, but I have to ask. I notice that your strength is just plain off the wall, Gaige. :smileyhappy: Is this what most monks gravitate toward as they reach the end game, or is there a benefit to switch between having high agi/sta/str depending on the situation? What are your personal preferences? Hmm. They've changed. I used to be all agility, then it got nerfed. So I was like, aight then I'm going all STA and HP traits. Then SOE lowered the affects of STA (go figure). On beta the effects of agility (as of this point) are pretty crappy. It takes a ton of it to affect avoidance. Buffing deflection, parry, defense is way more effective and easier to do for the most part. STR, while not some huge glorius upgrade, does effect your damage bonus up to 10x your level, so 500 at 50, 600 at 60. Also, due to our new STR/WIS buff and how a lot of gear drops are, STR is kind of easy to get up there in numbers. So even though the effect is minimal, you can kind of combat that by getting bunches of it all at once. Since the itemization in DoF should be more like AoW and BaoW I just imagine this trend will continue. Although due to lack of +deflection buffs in the game I'm secretly hoping that the person doing the items sneaks some brawler only +deflection gear in. I think balanced stats to 100 or 150 is a good start. You don't want any one huge [Removed for Content] stat, especially when you are talking about those stat levels. But once your primary three stats get over 150 or 175, then you can start to focus on one without hurting yourself much because buffed you'll end up over 200 in all anyway. As of now, with the way I play, what I'm doing and what I've seen on beta, I prefer to focus on STR. That, like everything, may change. __________________

09-07-2005, 08:35 PM	#12
JudyJudy Lord Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 368	Gaige wrote: JudyJudy wrote: Just a quick question for Gaige - a bit off topic, but I have to ask. I notice that your strength is just plain off the wall, Gaige. :smileyhappy: Is this what most monks gravitate toward as they reach the end game, or is there a benefit to switch between having high agi/sta/str depending on the situation? What are your personal preferences? Hmm. They've changed. I used to be all agility, then it got nerfed. So I was like, aight then I'm going all STA and HP traits. Then SOE lowered the affects of STA (go figure). On beta the effects of agility (as of this point) are pretty crappy. It takes a ton of it to affect avoidance. Buffing deflection, parry, defense is way more effective and easier to do for the most part. STR, while not some huge glorius upgrade, does effect your damage bonus up to 10x your level, so 500 at 50, 600 at 60. Also, due to our new STR/WIS buff and how a lot of gear drops are, STR is kind of easy to get up there in numbers. So even though the effect is minimal, you can kind of combat that by getting bunches of it all at once. Since the itemization in DoF should be more like AoW and BaoW I just imagine this trend will continue. Although due to lack of +deflection buffs in the game I'm secretly hoping that the person doing the items sneaks some brawler only +deflection gear in. I think balanced stats to 100 or 150 is a good start. You don't want any one huge [Removed for Content] stat, especially when you are talking about those stat levels. But once your primary three stats get over 150 or 175, then you can start to focus on one without hurting yourself much because buffed you'll end up over 200 in all anyway. As of now, with the way I play, what I'm doing and what I've seen on beta, I prefer to focus on STR. That, like everything, may change. Makes perfect sense, Gaige. Thanks for the reply. :smileyhappy: Message Edited by JudyJudy on 09-07-2005 09:35 AM __________________