Why will Monks Tank better than Guardians?

[Poochymama]

To be honest I dont even have a guardian so im not biased. I do have a bruiser and my friend has a monk. But the way it is on test servers right now and soon to be on the normal servers Monks tank better than guardians. They have around 42-45% mitigation and 85% avoidance, while Guardians have about 50% mitigation and 25% avoidance. [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]  5% more mitigation for 60% less avoidance this seems very unbalanced. Not to mention that Monks do twice as much dmg. LOUD NOISES!!!!!

[Gaige]

Um, that isn't how it is on test, they took the combat changes back off for awhile.  But guardians should have way less avoidance.  That's by design. 

[Poochymama]

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Gage-Mikel wrote:
Um, that isn't how it is on test, they took the combat changes back off for awhile.  But guardians should have way less avoidance.  That's by design. 

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Yeah but if Guardians have way less avoidance than Monks, then Monks should have way less Mitigation than Guardians. LOUD NOISES!!!!!!

[Naldien-Rat]

You're odd, buddy.

[Dr]

i think a reason we will never tank better than guardians is because of the cool moves we get. i mean cmon, if to tank as good as guardians we have to get rid of FD, wind walk, or awsome [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] weapons, armor and fighting style. i dont think its even worth it. cuz if they didnt take that away and still made us as good as guardians, it would make guardians really nerfed, cuz they wouldnt be no. 1 choice as tank, and their moves would be very insuperior to brawler fighting style, crusader spells, and zerker DPS. but i dunno, i might have no clue what the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] is goin on

dryz

 

[Cusashorn]

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Poochymama p wrote:

while Guardians have about 50% mitigation and 25% avoidance.

 

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Good. Avoidance needs to be lower though.

[Poochymama]

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Cusashorn wrote:

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Poochymama p wrote:

while Guardians have about 50% mitigation and 25% avoidance.

 

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Good. Avoidance needs to be lower though.

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You guys are selfish. Im not posting this because i have a guardian and want him to be uber. I dont even have a guardian. But this needs to be done for the good of the game. Let me put it to you in numbers.

 

A mob hits you 100 times for 100 dmg unmitigated.

 

This is how the monk would come out of the battle he would avoid 85 hits take 15 hits ( 85% av) He would mitigate each of those hits down to about 55 dmg with (45% mit) taking a total of 15 hits for 55 dmg each for a grand total of dmg 825 dmg

 

Now lets take a look at the Guardian

 

The Guardian would only avoid 25 hits with 25% av you he would take 75 hits total. Now he will Mitigate the hits to about 45 dmg with 55% mit. So he will get hit a total of 75 times for 45 dmg each. He would take a Grand total of 3375 dmg.

 

So monk takes 825 dmg and Guardian takes 3375 dmg. Does that seem fair?

 

Not to mention the monk killed his twice as fast so he took only half those hits.

 

So the totals for dmg should look more like this

 

Guard=3375 dmg

Monk =412  dmg

 

And Guardians are supposed to be the best tanks. LOUD NOISES!!!

[Gaige]

Avoidance doesn't work that way.  Also our mitigation on test isn't 45%, although guardians buffed avoidance with the combat changes that were last on test was around 28%.

But anyway, what is with this nonsense post in our forum?

[-UGG-Andy]

i guess its to give you something to reply too:smileytongue:

Don't see the point on saying much about part of a combat change that was removed from test and will probably not make it to live in that form it was in anyway.

[Vorham]

monks/bruisers will never tank raid mobs over a plate class.  We have light armor... it will go like this:

Avoid, avoid, avoid, avoid, hit (healers heal), avoid, avoid, avoid, avoid, avoid, hit (healers heal), avoid, avoid, avoid, hit(near full dmg), hit(near full dmg), DEAD brawler.

bad avoidance streaks will ALWAYS happen, no way they won't... part of probability... but the consequence is, brawlers won't be raid tanks over plate unless there are special mobs made (rapid low damage strikes with procs or something similar)... but that's a gimpy gimmick method of having brawlers tank

I like my bruiser how he is, a passable tank in exp groups, but mostly invited for his ability to crack skulls

 

 

Message Edited by Vorham on 06-20-2005 04:30 AM

[Jezekie]

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Poochymama p wrote:

And Guardians are supposed to be the best tanks.

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No.

[Moski]

We do tank Raid Mobs

We should tank raids Mobs

And we will tank most of the Raid Mobs (if SOE manages to balance us)

 

because we are fighter = tank

 

 

 

[benba]

Monk will never tank raid mob! We wear light armor, hello????? And our HP doesn't come close to that of a Guardian.

We can avoid all we want, but all it takes is one high  for 8000k and we're dead. A Guardian buffed up to 11k can survive that.

[Dr]

we never SHOULD be able to tank as well as guardians, we have too much awsome [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] that if we could tank as well, it would offset it. if we wanna get rid of all our cool stuff that guardians dont have then it would be fair if we were as good as guardians. but i dont want to lose all the cool moves and skills we have thats the main reason im a monk, to kick [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], and look cool doing it!

[Cusashorn]

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benbang wrote:

Monk will never tank raid mob! We wear light armor, hello????? And our HP doesn't come close to that of a Guardian.

We can avoid all we want, but all it takes is one high  for 8000k and we're dead. A Guardian buffed up to 11k can survive that.

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That right there is the first thing we're demanding they balance out. If anything, a physically healthy martial artist should have *MORE* hitpoints than some walking wall of armor who's gonna die of a heart attack 40% earlier than his racial life expectancy because of it.

[stfields]

You can play number games all you want. Yes, even if monks did indeed take less damage over time than a guardian, guardians would still be better tanks in raids. 

I feel confident enough in saying that we tank pretty well from monkhood till 50.  But, the underlying problem is spike damage.  What do healers do in raid circumstances?  They spam heal (reactives/wards/etc) the MT.  A guardian with 5+ mobs on him is always taking dmg.  However, even with all those reactives/wards up, they still take damage, since the damage comes in faster than the reactives can heal.  So, direct heals can make up the difference. 

Us monks... we got a problem.  When we get hit, we get hit [Removed for Content]' hard.  So, let's say we have 7000hp buffed (just making up a number here).  We get smacked for 3000hp and the ward sucks up 1000hp, the reactives heals about 500ish leaving 1500hp that needs to be healed directly.  The guardian however will be taking consistent damage getting better use out of those reactives than monks do.  When I get hate from some of these 55+ raid mobs, they pack a wallop

Hey, I'd love to tank raid mobs... but honestly, I don't feel we have the taunts to keep hate on a group of mobs like Guardians (and pallies do ok in my experience). 

[NamaeZero]

Maybe the solution to fixing Monks Avoidance vs. Mitigation raid issues would be as simple as doubling a Monks Health pool. Then Streaks won't be so bad, because we will have enough health to keep streaks from killing us. If this happened they could cut our Mitigation back to Guardian Avoidance levels (28%). We would be able to handle raid content then, but still be better for lower level content (since Avoidance works dramatically better if the con is white or less.)

Then Guardians could have their high level 58+ raid mobs, while Monks would be much more effective at doing level 52 or lower raid mobs (since our avoidance and HP pool would make us more efficient at that level.) We would specialize, without making it impossible for Monks to tank in higher level raids or Guardians to tank lower level raids.

[Moski]

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benbang wrote:

Monk will never tank raid mob! We wear light armor, hello????? And our HP doesn't come close to that of a Guardian.

We can avoid all we want, but all it takes is one high  for 8000k and we're dead. A Guardian buffed up to 11k can survive that.

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This is plain simple wrong. We do tank raid mobs. At least some of us, like Jez, Gage some others and me. We do have some problems and we do worse than guardians. But thats not our fault. It is SOE´s Problem and they are aware of it. The Combat Changes will hopefully solve at least some of the problems (like buff stacking - 100% avoidance-plate-tanks)

[ShashLigai]

I know I'm a newbie and all (lvl 21 monk), but if I wanted to tank like a Guardian, I would have chosen a Guardian character.  IMHO there is a penalty for high avoidance and low mitigation, its getting the crap knocked out of you when you do get hit. I deal with it every time I play, those I group with know it and assist accordingly. I hope SOE doesn't change too much, I'm OK with balance, just don't turn my char into a guardian.

[Edyil]

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ShashLigai wrote:

I know I'm a newbie and all (lvl 21 monk), but if I wanted to tank like a Guardian, I would have chosen a Guardian character.  IMHO there is a penalty for high avoidance and low mitigation, its getting the crap knocked out of you when you do get hit. I deal with it every time I play, those I group with know it and assist accordingly. I hope SOE doesn't change too much, I'm OK with balance, just don't turn my char into a guardian.

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At 37 I can agree with that.  However, it is rediculous how easily I get smacked down by an even con ^^ mob.  I have 80% avoidance and 45% mitigation (buffed).  Even using D specials the GF (Warden) and I can die in a matter of seconds to a ^^ even con mob.  An equally equiv geared Guard/Temp pair can win that same fight easily.  I know this is the case since there is a pair of that combo that hunts in the same zones as we do and are doing the same quests.  Seeing is believing.

Now either we should be able to tank and win that fight on occasion, or they should lose that fight on occasion.  Neither is the case.  We always lose and they always win.

[Faynne]

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Cusashorn wrote:

That right there is the first thing we're demanding they balance out. If anything, a physically healthy martial artist should have *MORE* hitpoints than some walking wall of armor who's gonna die of a heart attack 40% earlier than his racial life expectancy because of it.

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Agree here, Monks should have some sort of health bonus for being the "Master of body and health" we are supposed to be.

[Dandeli]

I hope they dont change us too much in the direction of main tanks, I enjoy my damage. I have/had a guardian. Let them be the kings of tanking raids, thats not why I chose monk. If guardians way out damaged me, then I'd have a major problem.

[zabor]

I'd really love tanking raid content, but I see why we shouldn't tank as good as a guardian.Playing a guardian is boring, playing a monk is great fun, so what's the point in having guardians if other classes can do the job just as good?I don't fear losing my place in raids. I got good dps, i can buff the mt's avoidance by 42%, and I have the only epic stifle in game.

[benba]

let me clarify raid mobs. I mean real raid mobs such as Darathar that will tail whip you for 6k and then another 5k in 2 seconds span.

I'm not talking about crap like King Drayek or the CL King  or those weakass  mobs for F & I and Deceptions where groups of 6 to 8 people can take them without even a chanter or bard.   

[Parax]

Well, I moved my 46 zerker and 50 alt monk to test server a couple months ago, or was it several . Anyhow, believe it or not, I tanked Drayek when they suddenly added uber monk mitigation into the factor. Needless to say I had 44.something % mitigation with a whopping, staggering 96% avoidance! How the heck that happened I don't know, but, our raid group took advantage of it and i was MT

I rocked on the taking damage part and avoiding tons and tons of hits, my chat bar was full of miss, blocks, ripostes, more misses. But, in the end we wiped, I just could not hold aggro for very long, (about half way through fight lost it). I didnt use auto attack cause i was equiped with dual wield weapons and if I would've been riposted I would've been toast, those ripostes still take a good chunk of health away more so than the actual hit or combat art.

But, the point is, it seems to be getting better for monks, although it could have been a fluke what happened, gonna try and do it again this weekend and see if we can re-produce what stats i had.

[Gaige]

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Paraxis wrote:

Well, I moved my 46 zerker and 50 alt monk to test server a couple months ago, or was it several . Anyhow, believe it or not, I tanked Drayek when they suddenly added uber monk mitigation into the factor. Needless to say I had 44.something % mitigation with a whopping, staggering 96% avoidance! How the heck that happened I don't know, but, our raid group took advantage of it and i was MT

I rocked on the taking damage part and avoiding tons and tons of hits, my chat bar was full of miss, blocks, ripostes, more misses. But, in the end we wiped, I just could not hold aggro for very long, (about half way through fight lost it). I didnt use auto attack cause i was equiped with dual wield weapons and if I would've been riposted I would've been toast, those ripostes still take a good chunk of health away more so than the actual hit or combat art.

But, the point is, it seems to be getting better for monks, although it could have been a fluke what happened, gonna try and do it again this weekend and see if we can re-produce what stats i had.

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Yup, test is a lot different for us.  You should've autoattacked though, bad decision on your part.

What everyone fails to realize is that since launch guardians have been broken and overpowered (not really their fault) due to buff stacking and defense skill issues.

Guardians have the best mitigation in the game, plus the highest HP.  They can also stack HP buffs, combined with how reactives heal (aggro goes to target not caster) lumped in with the +defense skill upping avoidance (guardians get the most group/self defense skill buffs) and then shields adding to avoidance = they MT almost entirely because of how good their avoidance is, with their mitigation/HP as a side factor.

Almost all of which is unintended.  The buff stacking issue is already for the most part addressed on test, the way the +defense skill works is going to change with the combat upgrade.  So what you will end up seeing after the changes is guardians with very, very, very low avoidance, and very, very, very high mitigation.  You will see us with very, very, very high avoidance and very, very low mitigation.

The HP will probably always be skewed towards the guardians, but that remains to be seen.  I think the difference will not be near as bad as it is now, since they are taking away the guardian class HP buff stacking.

Last night I was in our MT group and I had around 7400HP and our Guardian had around 8100HP.  I had more HP than the SK who was also in our MT group, I think he had around 7000HP.  I didn't really look at avoid/mit numbers, sorry.

But, again, the whole scenario from release until now has been pretty much broken.  Guardians right now are pretty similiar to how we were in January, when our avoidance could be so good that we couldn't get hit.  The same thing is happening to the guardian class, and because of the other things they benefit from over us (HP, mitigation) encounters become even more trivial.

Right now on live I don't want to tank anything, it'd be futile.  My damage is too good, and the guardian's defense is untouchable.  Why mess with that?

However, I will be looking forward to the (hopefully) change back to a more tank oriented role once the combat/spell changes go live.  But of course that, with anything, is something we'll all have to wait and see.

But, I do believe the changes being made will close the gap between fighters, letting all of us tank again (maybe even some raid content) but of course guardians will always be the most defensive.  I don't have a problem with that, I just have a problem with them being supermen.  It isn't fair to any of the other fighter classes.

[IrulanDunedanc]

That explains the blue tights, red capes, and big S's I see on the tanks all the time. :smileytongue:

[ShashLigai]

thanks Gage

[bonesbro]

We were doing Zalak last night and I pulled agro.  block 2300 parry 3200 block 3200 5800 (riposted charging tiger) dead.  A couple of good healers were keeping me alive, and I was in the MT group so I had a good set of buffs on, but the riposte for 5800 was at least 75% of my life.  I even switched off autoattack as soon as I pulled agro except to use my stun/stifles, but I ate a riposte on one of them and died instantly anyway.

Heh, ripostes dropped two scouts while he was on me, so at least I can say we still tank raids better than scouts!

[lagerone]

In my opinion, and it is only that, Bruiser and Monks (as Gage incessantly posts on our boards speaking for the Bruiser class, I will no longer restrain myself) should absolutely NEVER tank raid mobs.  Maybe for a joke, yes.  But in practice never. 

They should only be the main tank in groups when a plate tank is not available, or the plate tank is two levels below them.

There are about 3-4 very vocal players who have reached the high end game who are now arguing for Bruisers and Monks to be turned into Light Armour Guardians.  Simply put these players are bored.  They believe that will have more fun if there existing classes are made into raid tanks.  These people have, by evidence of their posts on the boards, the ear of SOE.

I am going to have my crappy two cents worth every time I see this raised on the boards.  As far as I am concerned my class "Bruiser" is working as intended.  When I created my character - after I stopped playing a Bezerker - I did not expect to tank raid mobs and I never want do.  If I wanted to be a Guardian..I would have rolled one, and for Gage, Jez, Moskito I suggest that is what you should do.  You will enjoy the end game more and you might stop pushing to destroy a class that is balanced and working well.

 

I am sorry if I disagree with your views on the future of Brawlers. 

I think the Brawler class plays exactly as I envisaged it when I chose to play it.

A rebalancing of Brawlers to make us raid tanks is likely to make us either:

1. Broken to our advantage; in that we become the raid tank of choice,
2. Broken to our disadvantage; in that we become poor-tanks and poor-dps

I will go look for some fire resist gear in preparation for the raid-tank-cabal's response.