What about Haste ...

[Tiranus62]

Hi,I'd like to know your thinking about Haste.I'v seen some nice items with 20% haste and i ask myself if it's really interesting to get one (or two !) and how it works.Is it only a boost for autoattack ?Is it cumulative (two items : 40% haste ?)I mainly use a single hand sword (Soul Harvester) + tower shield : is it a good think or dual wield could be better with haste ?

Thanks.

[Anjin]

 

 

---

Tiranus62 wrote:
Hi,

I'd like to know your thinking about Haste.

I'v seen some nice items with 20% haste and i ask myself if it's really interesting to get one (or two !) and how it works.

Is it only a boost for autoattack ? Yes, haste is only applicable to autoattack. 
Is it cumulative (two items : 40% haste ?) No, items with the 'Haste' spell on them will not stack.
I mainly use a single hand sword (Soul Harvester) + tower shield : is it a good think or dual wield could be better with haste ?  If you are tanking, stick with a 1H with a long delay, if you want to DPS then go for a 2H with a long delay (dependant on AA setup though)

Thanks.

[TheSpin]

I just wanted to add one quick "unconfirmed" adjustment to the above post.

 

I hear that haste adornments (which are attached to gear) will stack with whatever perma haste item you are currently using.

 

I believe only your best haste adornment will work (I think there's only one slot you can add haste to anyway, but not sure)

[Tiranus62]

Well, thanks.Just asking to me wy looking for a long delay weapon ? I though that the more often i hit the more i dps ...

[uux]

It's true that the more often you hit with a particular weapon the more DPS you will do.  That is true regardless of the delay.  Two weapons with the same damage rating but different delays should see close to the same benefit to autoattack when haste is applied.  The one with the lower delay will not simply do more damage because it hits more.The advantage from a tanking stand point to a slow weapon is that there are less opportunities for the mob to riposte your attacks as you have a lesser overall number of swings.There are also advantages when it comes to DPS.  Dimglow touched on one aspect of it with his recent post in the achievement sticky at the top of this forum.  The damage range on a slow weapon is usually larger as well.  A slow weapon can spike high or low, while a fast weapon is pretty consistent.  With a decent crit boost (STR line, outside buffs, equipment, potions) the damage tends to spike higher more often than not.  There used to be an advantage to proc rates as well, but I don't know if this is still true.

[Anjin]

---

uux wrote:
It's true that the more often you hit with a particular weapon the more DPS you will do.  That is true regardless of the delay.  Two weapons with the same damage rating but different delays should see close to the same benefit to autoattack when haste is applied.  The one with the lower delay will not simply do more damage because it hits more.

The major point is that you are going to delay your autoattack using a CA less using a slow weapon that using a fast weapon.

The advantage from a tanking stand point to a slow weapon is that there are less opportunities for the mob to riposte your attacks as you have a lesser overall number of swings.

There are also advantages when it comes to DPS.  Dimglow touched on one aspect of it with his recent post in the achievement sticky at the top of this forum.  The damage range on a slow weapon is usually larger as well.  A slow weapon can spike high or low, while a fast weapon is pretty consistent.  With a decent crit boost (STR line, outside buffs, equipment, potions) the damage tends to spike higher more often than not.  There used to be an advantage to proc rates as well, but I don't know if this is still true.

Basically the higher the value of (max damage / min damage) the higher your crit will be (subject to the RNG). i.e. a weapon with 200-250 will crit for a lower value on average than a weapon with 100-250.

---

[uux]

---

Herbster wrote:

The major point is that you are going to delay your autoattack using a CA less using a slow weapon that using a fast weapon. Basically the higher the value of (max damage / min damage) the higher your crit will be (subject to the RNG). i.e. a weapon with 200-250 will crit for a lower value on average than a weapon with 100-250.

---

The CA's delaying autoattack was covered quite nicely by Dimglow.  I referred to that message as it provides a much better explanation than I could.  It goes into a lot more detail as well.You're a little off on the crits, though.  It isn't the larger the range, the larger the crit.  Two weapons that hit for the same max damage will crit just as high as each other (as in your example).  The weapon with the larger range will see more benefit in autoattack damage from what it previously did without the critical boost than the weapon with the smaller range.  That is not to say that the weapon with the larger range will always out DPS the weapon with the smaller.  Damage rating, delay, and max damage range all play a part.So with a decent crit boost, aim for a weapon that has a higher max damage.  It has nothing to do with haste.  With a high enough crit %, it just swings the spike damage of the slow weapon with the larger range to favor the higher end of the range.

Message Edited by uux on 01-23-2007 10:46 AM

[Anjin]

I suggest you read this post. http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=111347

Message Edited by Herbster on 01-23-2007 04:29 PM

[uux]

---

Herbster wrote:

I suggest you read this post. http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=111347

Message Edited by Herbster on 01-23-2007 04:29 PM

---

I have.  In fact, I have linked to it from other posts even.  I suggest you read it rather than just provide links and assume too much.  I'll quote something from the very top just for you.

Summary:

 

Raising your crit rate gives varying bonuses dependent on the Min:Max Damage ratio of your attack, and the nature of your attack.

 

AUTO-ATTACK AND SPELLS SEEM TO FOLLOW THE MAX DAMAGE +1 to MAX DAMAGE * 1.3 RULE.

Did you get that?  It also still has nothing to do with haste.

[Anjin]

When did I say it did have anything to do with haste?

[Anjin]

I like the way you left out the sentence afterwards in your quote:

Most Weapons are 1:3 Ratio, giving a ~0.58% damage increase per point of crit. There are exceptions, and you can look on the above graphs to see the crit damage increase for your particular weapon.

1:3 meaning high hit is 3 times low hit.  1:5 does higher crit.  Meaning greater the difference between higher and lower means the greater the crit.  I suggest you read the whole post concerning autoattacks instead of just the summary.

[uux]

---

Herbster wrote:

I like the way you left out the sentence afterwards in your quote:

Most Weapons are 1:3 Ratio, giving a ~0.58% damage increase per point of crit. There are exceptions, and you can look on the above graphs to see the crit damage increase for your particular weapon.

1:3 meaning high hit is 3 times low hit.  1:5 does higher crit.  Meaning greater the difference between higher and lower means the greater the crit.  I suggest you read the whole post concerning autoattacks instead of just the summary.

---

It seems you don't understand what you quoted, what I've been saying, or how irrelevant that following sentance was.  It is just reinforcing my previous statemants.

Message Edited by uux on 01-23-2007 12:58 PM

[uux]

---

Herbster wrote:

When did I say it did have anything to do with haste?

---

Did you miss the topic?

[Anjin]

I think that's a [Removed for Content] poor apology if you ask me.  Now I'll make it plain and simple to you quoting from the post.  Below is the graph that was in the post:

Quotes:

As you go across the bottom, the ratio increases from 1:1.3 up to 1:10.. This graph is good for Melee Weapons.

For any non-ca attack with a ratio of 1:X, you can use the first graph to determine the damage boost you get by looking at the X axis for the MAX Damage part of the ratio.

1) My Blade of the Bixies has a damage range of 22-65 displayed on it. 66/22 = 3, so it's a 1:3 Min:Max Damage ratio. So, looking at the first 1:X graph, you look at the point 3 on the x axis, and see where it intersects the line. So, looking at 3 on that graph, gives us that Y is ~1.58. This means that with 100% crit, you would do 58% more damage with that weapon. You can multiply your crit rate by the modifier.. so with 25% crit: (0.25*0.58 = 0.145). That means with 25% crit you would do 14.5% more damage

I you can't see you're wrong, you have a problem.

 

[uux]

I haven't offered an apology at all.  [Removed for Content].  You just don't seem to understand what you are quoting.

[Anjin]

rofl - you brought up crits before me sunshine.

[Anjin]

Can you not get it into your simple mind that the higher the difference between low and high means the higher the crit. 20-60 dmg = 1:3, 1-60 = 1:6 etc etc.  Now look at the graph and read along the x axis and look at the line above 3 and the line above 6.

 

[uux]

---

Herbster wrote:

rofl - you brought up crits before me sunshine.

---

As it applied to my post, champ.  [Removed for Content]

[uux]

---

Herbster wrote:

Can you not get it into your simple mind that the higher the difference between low and high means the higher the crit. 20-60 dmg = 1:3, 1-60 = 1:6 etc etc.  Now look at the graph and read along the x axis and look at the line above 3 and the line above 6.

 

---

[Removed for Content].  Yeah, that's right, *my* simple mind just doesn't get it... :smileyvery-happy:You're reinforcing my previous statements with absolutely no clue to what you are saying.  This is great.

[Anjin]

I quote you "You're a little off on the crits, though.  It isn't the larger the range, the larger the crit. Two weapons that hit for the same max damage will crit just as high as each other (as in your example)."

 

No they won't.

Message Edited by Herbster on 01-23-2007 06:27 PM

[uux]

---

Herbster wrote:

I quote you "You're a little off on the crits, though.  It isn't the larger the range, the larger the crit. Two weapons that hit for the same max damage will crit just as high as each other (as in your example)."

 

No they won't.

Message Edited by Herbster on 01-23-2007 06:27 PM

---

[Removed for Content].  So, let me get this straight.  We'll use your example.

Basically the higher the value of (max damage / min damage) the higher your crit will be (subject to the RNG). i.e. a weapon with 200-250 will crit for a lower value on average than a weapon with 100-250.

A weapon with a max damage of 250 that will crit for 250 + 1 to 250 * 1.3 will crit higher than when compared to a weapon with a max damage of 250 that will crit for 250 + 1 to 250 * 1.3?  That's exactly what you're saying.Range has nothing to do with max damage, champ.  Crits will make up for the deficiency of that lower damage spike.  Rather than hitting for 100, you may crit for 250 + 1 to 250 * 1.3.  The same is true for the 200-250 ranged weapon in your example.  The larger range saw the most benefit from crits (as all the quoting you did explains, and I also stated it previously), but it doesn't out damage the smaller range.  You also left out weapon delay and damage rating so it's too hard to determine anything from your example weapons.  There's no telling from range alone if those weapons are of equal damage rating.The numbers in the chart are applied to the damage rating, not range.  They're derived from the range.  The range doesn't increase.  The max you will crit for is still max damage + 1 to max damage * 1.3.  The results of the chart are the overall benefit in weapon damage, not the increase in max damage.  A weapon with the larger benefit doesn't necessary mean it will out damage another with a lesser benefit.  The one with the lesser benefit may have a higher damage rating to start with.Now why did I mention crits to begin with?  To compensate for the wider damage range on slow weapons.  Slow weapons being preferred when hasted due to several reasons already covered.   A crit boost can help swing the damage spike into the high range more often.Hope that connects some dots for ya.

[Anjin]

Do you intentially try to bamboozle people arguing against your points with utter twaddle?

Read what the quote says:

1) My Blade of the Bixies has a damage range of 22-65 displayed on it. 66/22 = 3, so it's a 1:3 Min:Max Damage ratio. So, looking at the first 1:X graph, you look at the point 3 on the x axis, and see where it intersects the line. So, looking at 3 on that graph, gives us that Y is ~1.58. This means that with 100% crit, you would do 58% more damage with that weapon. You can multiply your crit rate by the modifier.. so with 25% crit: (0.25*0.58 = 0.145). That means with 25% crit you would do 14.5% more damage

I will translate this using a hyperthetical weapon

1) My Blaster of Moronic Posters like Uxx has a damage range of 11-65 displayed on it. 66/11 = 6, so it's a 1:6 Min:Max Damage ratio. So, looking at the first 1:X graph, you look at the point 6 on the x axis, and see where it intersects the line. So, looking at 6 on that graph, gives us that Y is ~1.78. This means that with 100% crit, you would do 78% more damage with that weapon. You can multiply your crit rate by the modifier.. so with 25% crit: (0.25*0.78 = 0.195). That means with 25% crit you would do 19.5% more damage

Most Weapons are 1:3 Ratio, giving a ~0.58% damage increase per point of crit. There are exceptions, and you can look on the above graphs to see the crit damage increase for your particular weapon.

What you are doing is assuming EVERY weapon has a 1:3 ratio.  They don't hence you need to use the graph to work out how high your crit might go.

Message Edited by Herbster on 01-23-2007 10:50 PM

[uux]

Herbster wrote:

Do you intentially try to bamboozle people arguing against your points with utter twaddle?

Is everything you can't comprehend twaddle and someone trying to bamboozle you?  You do realize I gain nothing from this, don't you?  It's not even remotely entertaining at the moment.

Read what the quote says:

1) My Blade of the Bixies has a damage range of 22-65 displayed on it. 66/22 = 3, so it's a 1:3 Min:Max Damage ratio. So, looking at the first 1:X graph, you look at the point 3 on the x axis, and see where it intersects the line. So, looking at 3 on that graph, gives us that Y is ~1.58. This means that with 100% crit, you would do 58% more damage with that weapon. You can multiply your crit rate by the modifier.. so with 25% crit: (0.25*0.58 = 0.145). That means with 25% crit you would do 14.5% more damage

I will translate this using a hyperthetical weapon

Before you attempt a translation, you should first understand what that is telling you.   In that example overall damage improved by 14.5% (due to the improvement in the lower range), the max damage range didn't improve by 14.5%.  There is a difference you apparently fail to see.

1) My Blaster of Moronic Posters like Uxx has a damage range of 11-65 displayed on it. 66/11 = 6, so it's a 1:6 Min:Max Damage ratio. So, looking at the first 1:X graph, you look at the point 6 on the x axis, and see where it intersects the line. So, looking at 6 on that graph, gives us that Y is ~1.78. This means that with 100% crit, you would do 78% more damage with that weapon. You can multiply your crit rate by the modifier.. so with 25% crit: (0.25*0.78 = 0.195). That means with 25% crit you would do 19.5% more damage

Most Weapons are 1:3 Ratio, giving a ~0.58% damage increase per point of crit. There are exceptions, and you can look on the above graphs to see the crit damage increase for your particular weapon.

What you are doing is assuming EVERY weapon has a 1:3 ratio.  They don't hence you need to use the graph to work out how high your crit might go.

More hypothetical weapons and nonsense from someone who doesn't understand what they're talking about or reading.  Funny stuff.  I made no assumptions, you did.  I never mentioned ratio or provided hypothetical weapons.  That was you again.  You're not even backing your arguments.  You're supporting mine without even realizing it.

/sigh.  You still don't get it even after the dots were connected for you.  Sorry, but I can't explain it any better to you.  It's not my problem if you don't understand.

EDIT:

I think you're getting hung up on the max damage + 1 to max damage * 1.3.   I'll give you a hint, even though I don't have much faith that you'll catch on or that you would even consider for a second that you are in the wrong.  That "max damage * 1.3" has nothing to do with the ratio derived from the damage range.

Message Edited by uux on 01-23-2007 06:41 PM

[Anjin]

OK, you stick by what you think is right (which is a load of rubbish) and I'll stick by mine - I guarantee I'll be getting higher crits.  I'm off abroad for a couple of days, hope you get a life by then.............

[uux]

---

Herbster wrote:

OK, you stick by what you think is right (which is a load of rubbish) and I'll stick by mine - I guarantee I'll be getting higher crits.  I'm off abroad for a couple of days, hope you get a life by then.............

---

[Removed for Content].  Pot, kettle, black.  I don't think at this point you get to bow out (disgraceful as it was) and pretend to have more of a life.  I tried to let it go earlier only to continue to receive insults.  The fact that you are wrong (there isn't even room to agree to disagree, you're just flat out wrong) and still act so condescending is astounding.It's pretty clear you have no understanding of how crits work.  You seemed to have missed the developer post even about where that "max damage * 1.3" came from.  It's not from any ratio.  It's max damage + 30% (max damage + (max damage * 0.30)).  Did you even notice in that chart where a 1:1 ratio weapon falls?  Do you even understand why I'm asking you that?  It's funny that you're contradicting a developer and yet you cannot see that you just might be wrong.  Who do you think knows more about the game mechanics, you, or a developer?  You even missed the other player posts in that thread that all support the max damage + 30%.  You're not even understanding what you are quoting and just keep tossing it out there.  You've gotten lost in the numbers and don't seem to understand what they're applying to.  You have even ignored the majority of the thread you linked to and continue quoting from it.I just can't believe someone would be so stupid.  Please, just save yourself some humiliation and say you were only continuing this thread to troll (in which case you were successful, you caused my post count to go up) and you really aren't so freaking dumb.

[Tiranus62]

okYours discution about crit bonus is very interesting, and i carefully red de post with nice graph (and i have to tell that i'm rather agree with Herbster). I'll remember when i have to choose betwen two weapons with de same average rating, to get the one with the highest min:max ration to hope for a better crit boost.Just thinking about it, where can i see my % critical hits rate ? and does de quality of the weapon (fabled, legendary, ...) change something not shown by the stats listed on the weapon ?Thanks.

[Anjin]

Well, I'm stuck at heathrow airport because my plane is delayed and I've run through the various crit damage posts and both I and Uxx are correct in certain ways (mine only in forcing the min:max vs crit dmg issue).  If 2 weapons have the same delay and DR, the one with the greater min:max will (on average) crit for higher.  I was incorrect in using 1-60 vs 20-60 analagies because they wouldn't have the same DR.

 

The graph only highlights the extra crit damage done assuming the weapons have the same DR.

 

So basically to generate the highest dps, use a slow weapon to reduce delays though CA's and ensure this slow weapon has a high min:max dmg range (but still with a good DR). 

 

So my apologies to Uxx.

[uux]

Herbster wrote:

Well, I'm stuck at heathrow airport because my plane is delayed and I've run through the various crit damage posts and both I and Uxx are correct in certain ways (mine only in forcing the min:max vs crit dmg issue).  If 2 weapons have the same delay and DR, the one with the greater min:max will (on average) crit for higher.  I was incorrect in using 1-60 vs 20-60 analagies because they wouldn't have the same DR.

 

The graph only highlights the extra crit damage done assuming the weapons have the same DR.

I agree that a larger min:max range will do more critical damage.  The point I'm trying to make though is that it is overall damage, not maximum damage from a single hit.  This is why damage rating is important.  The highest damage you will crit for is still within max damage range + 30%.  You will not exceed that.

1) My Blade of the Bixies has a damage range of 22-65 displayed on it. 66/22 = 3, so it's a 1:3 Min:Max Damage ratio. So, looking at the first 1:X graph, you look at the point 3 on the x axis, and see where it intersects the line. So, looking at 3 on that graph, gives us that Y is ~1.58. This means that with 100% crit, you would do 58% more damage with that weapon. You can multiply your crit rate by the modifier.. so with 25% crit: (0.25*0.58 = 0.145). That means with 25% crit you would do 14.5% more damage.

I'll try to explain myself more clearly (but I warn you, I'm not good at that).  We'll just keep using this example as it's pretty solid and based on actual game play.  Let's just also add to it that we have the 25% crit used in the example.  Without crits, at any given time during an encounter the Blade of the Bixies (DR 60) can hit for anywhere in between 22 - 65 damage.  It's not predictable.  We can only guess that at 100% hit rate that it will follow the damage rating and do 60 DPS (overall damage).  Now to add crits.  We have a 25% chance for any of those unpredictable hits to be modified up to the maximum damage range (65) + 30%.  We don't know what hits will be crits.  We don't know what they rolled for before the crit was applied or what the modified value is until after it happens.  All we know is that we have a 25% chance for any hit to be modified up to the maximum damage range + 30%.  It could be 1 hit.  It could be 100% of the hits.  It should at least hold true to 25% of the hits.  How do we quantify this?  How can we pre-determine what the benefit will be on any weapon?  That's what the linked to and quoted post tried to break down and explain.From the example above, the Blade of the Bixies improves overall by 14.5% more damage.  It's because some of the hits have been modified to be really high hits.  Basically, you have a weapon that is now closer to a damage rating of 68.7 (60 + (60 * 0.145)).  Even though it gained 14.5% more damage overall, it can still hit as hard as max damage range + 30% or as low as the min range.  So, I say here, ratio and range will not change the maximum critical damage.Now, I say a larger range will do more critical damage.   If you have a weapon that is say 50 - 250  (1:5 ratio) then the max damage range + 30% is much higher than the previously mentioned weapon.  However, the difference between the max + 30% and the min are much much larger than on the Blade of the Bixes (1:3 ratio).  The low hits benefited much more as the difference is higher.   It's a funny play on numbers and doesn't necessarily mean the larger ratio will do more overall damage.  It just benefits more from crits than the weapon with the smaller range.  It's reflected in the chart as can be seen with the way overall damage increases as the ratio gets larger.It's simply a measure to see how much benefit you would gain with that particular weapon from crits.   A weapon with a low DR and a high range might not necessarily out damage a weapon with a high DR and a smaller range.  Even though the weapon with the smaller range may not benefit as much, it still has an overall higher damage rating.

So basically to generate the highest dps, use a slow weapon to reduce delays though CA's and ensure this slow weapon has a high min:max dmg range (but still with a good DR).

I probably said a whole lot of nothing again, but generally all you need to follow is that statement.  Slow weapons with a wide min:max range and good DR tend to have a higher max range than the faster weapons of the same caliber.