LU21 Zerker Changes

Legiax · 03-23-2006, 09:32 PM

Berserker changes:- Juggernaut's penalties no longer increase as the art is upgraded.- Insolent Gibe will no longer initially cast onto other players in the area.- Reckless Aide will now expire if the ally it was cast on is no longer present. The target must now be another player.

Sigh... who went and /petitioned the Reckless Aide bug? i loved buffing my mushroom and running around =/

Nice to know DEV's have been reading the Juggernaut threads though... now they just need to take 1 more step and slightly reduce the penalties.

infernus006 · 03-23-2006, 09:42 PM

[Removed for Content] it...is Reckless Aide a prior verison of Guarded Vehemence? That's sucks we won't be able to use that extra AGI while soloing now. [Removed for Content] their nerfs. And as far as I'm concerned they can take that Juggernaut spell and shove it because that whole spell is just one big nerf to our class.

lithium20x · 03-23-2006, 09:43 PM

Also another note about sheilds- Kite shields at all levels now provide the same chance to block as tower shields (12%).- Round shields of all levels now provide a consistent chance to block (8%).

Message Edited by lithium20x on 03-23-200611:43 AM

infernus006 · 03-23-2006, 09:52 PM

"Kite shields at all levels now provide the same chance to block as tower shields (12%)."That is some BS too. Why should a smaller sheild have the same chance to block as a bigger one of the same quality material? That just makes no sense at all. But w/e, I'm more PO'ed about the change to Guarded Vehemence and the fact we are basically getting a huge AGI nerf by SOE while we are solo. Look at how much less avoidance you will have now without that buff on when you are trying to solo. Fing BS. I'm getting really sick of all these dumb pointless decisions they keep making lately.

Dimgl · 03-23-2006, 10:37 PM

infernus006 wrote:"Kite shields at all levels now provide the same chance to block as tower shields (12%)."That is some BS too. Why should a smaller sheild have the same chance to block as a bigger one of the same quality material? That just makes no sense at all. But w/e, I'm more PO'ed about the change to Guarded Vehemence and the fact we are basically getting a huge AGI nerf by SOE while we are solo. Look at how much less avoidance you will have now without that buff on when you are trying to solo. Fing BS. I'm getting really sick of all these dumb pointless decisions they keep making lately.

The change to our cover-other line, or Guarded Vehemence, was due to an exploitable bug with the ability. If you covered a pet, like the mushroom from Splitpaw, and then dismissed it the ability would retarget yourself, allowing the fighter to recycle their evasion check. (% chance to use their evasion check again.)

Notice that this was fixed for -all- fighters, not just Berserkers.

It doesn't need to be said how incredibly broken this is/was. I reported it ingame, bugged it ingame, and also sent the devs PMs over it (not even a few days ago.) I'm glad they quickly fixed it after finding the bug. If you want to blame anyone for this "nerf" I guess you can blame me, not the devs.

I don't understand how you can be so "upset" about a change when you had no idea what the implications or reasoning behind changing the ability were. Think about the brawlers who were able to have 70% evasion, with a high chance to use that 70% over again, giving them 80-90% real evasion.

SugarGirl · 03-23-2006, 10:57 PM

Yes, I don't think that it's arguable that this was a bug... as much as I loved it, I knew it would go away someday. The thing that gets me is that they take such rapid action on a spell line that is of benefit to us, but never murmur a peep about the spell they put out that is of no benefit to zerkers whatsoever. I would like to know why the devs are so quick to respond to anything that might aide us in battle, but never respond to the items that are obviously a major concern to the playerbase?

Asmadai · 03-24-2006, 12:08 AM

Seriously, it was a BUG. Complaining about a 'nerf' whenever they just fixed a known BUG is just pointless. Heck I just started my Berserker recently and had already seen this bug. Was kinda hoping they'd take longer to fix it, but whatever, the AGI from it will not make or break us. Heck I bet it won't even be noticable.

Bremer · 03-24-2006, 12:36 AM

Even if it was a bug that the spell had an extra chance to avoid a hit using your avoidance, with this change we now have 60+ agi less solo

Nachricht bearbeitet von Bremer am 03-23-200608:37 PM

infernus006 · 03-24-2006, 01:52 AM

"If you covered a pet, like the mushroom from Splitpaw, and then dismissed it the ability would retarget yourself, allowing the fighter to recycle their evasion check. (% chance to use their evasion check again.)"I was not aware of that problem. I only cast the buff on my mushroom pet when I am solo to get the extra 65 AGI points, nothing more. All I know and care about regarding this change is that after it goes into effect I will have 65 points less AGI when I am solo than I usually have and that will hurt my survivability in duels a lot as well. The way the spell is right now today does not make us overpowered by any means. As it is right now fully self-buffed with this spell on I have just barely 50% avoidance at level 70 against a same-level opponent in full defensive mode. I can barely solo blue^^^ mobs as it is whereas I know other classes that can solo yellow and orange ones with ease. I never bothered complaing about that before but now that they are nerfing my AGI I guess I will. So basically the one AGI buff we get can no longer be used while solo at all. How can you be happy about that?FYI just because you mouse-over the icon in your maintained spells window and it has your name there as the target doesn't mean that you are getting the extra avoidance check bonus from it. I have been in groups many times where I casted the buff on someone else and it still had my name there instead of theirs. IMO that was just a display bug.I would be happy if they would at least keep this ability allowed to be cast on pets but you have to keep the pet out for the AGI bonus to stay in effect instead of it staying on after you killed the pet. I could live with having to drag the stupid pet around with me and the possibility of it getting killed during battle and having the AGI drop off at that time. But it doesn't make sense for us to have to suffer with less AGI from one of our own buffs just because we are not grouped with someone else to cast it on. I think that was the whole reason why they had the spell the way it was all this time so that we wouldn't be shorted on AGI while solo. But because whiny people like you cried about it and begged them to nerf your own class we all have to suffer for it now. Way to go.

Message Edited by infernus006 on 03-23-200604:28 PM

Urglu · 03-24-2006, 02:01 AM

Dimglow wrote:
infernus006 wrote:"Kite shields at all levels now provide the same chance to block as tower shields (12%)."That is some BS too. Why should a smaller sheild have the same chance to block as a bigger one of the same quality material? That just makes no sense at all. But w/e, I'm more PO'ed about the change to Guarded Vehemence and the fact we are basically getting a huge AGI nerf by SOE while we are solo. Look at how much less avoidance you will have now without that buff on when you are trying to solo. Fing BS. I'm getting really sick of all these dumb pointless decisions they keep making lately.
The change to our cover-other line, or Guarded Vehemence, was due to an exploitable bug with the ability. If you covered a pet, like the mushroom from Splitpaw, and then dismissed it the ability would retarget yourself, allowing the fighter to recycle their evasion check. (% chance to use their evasion check again.)
Notice that this was fixed for -all- fighters, not just Berserkers.
It doesn't need to be said how incredibly broken this is/was. I reported it ingame, bugged it ingame, and also sent the devs PMs over it (not even a few days ago.) I'm glad they quickly fixed it after finding the bug. If you want to blame anyone for this "nerf" I guess you can blame me, not the devs.
I don't understand how you can be so "upset" about a change when you had no idea what the implications or reasoning behind changing the ability were. Think about the brawlers who were able to have 70% evasion, with a high chance to use that 70% over again, giving them 80-90% real evasion.

It didn't work like that. You kept the secondary effect, but the avoidance check did not recycle back on you.

infernus006 · 03-24-2006, 09:28 AM

This change does nothing but nerf our soloability. I have lost at least 2% of my avoidance from not being able to have this buff on while solo. SMILEY

Ep · 03-24-2006, 09:32 AM

i kept 2pets up most of the time, shroom pet and new kos collection bird... *sigh now they just good for aoe's

denche · 03-24-2006, 09:50 AM

"It doesn't need to be said how incredibly broken this is/was. I reported it ingame, bugged it ingame, and also sent the devs PMs over it (not even a few days ago.) I'm glad they quickly fixed it after finding the bug. If you want to blame anyone for this "nerf" I guess you can blame me, not the devs."

oh

my

god..

have you made sure to go through every class spell line and report everyone one of em that allowed the caster to cast a group buff on thier mushroom pet?

because if not, you really need a new hobby

It was incredibly broken?? where's all the outraged posts from everyone talking about the horrible exploit anyone / everyone has by being able to cast on thier pet? What a waste of time "fix" to a non-issue that negatively impacted no-one..

Kasar · 03-24-2006, 11:31 AM

Urglunt wrote:
It didn't work like that. You kept the secondary effect, but the avoidance check did not recycle back on you.

Always seemed cosmetic to me as well, at least that part. I didn't use a pet, the guardian version placed on a player would stay after they'd left in the same way. I never got a message that'd indicate it did anything except the additional parry skill. It usually shows that so-n-so blocks when it works.

Message Edited by Kasar on 03-24-200604:45 AM

Dimgl · 03-24-2006, 08:02 PM

Personal insult aside,
Tested it with both my 60 Shadowknight and 52 Berserker, in both cases evasion was significanly higher against white con mobs, moreso than would be expected by receiving the passive parry bonus (for sks) or the passive agility bonus (for berserkers.)
At the very least there appeared to be some kind of secondary effect/bugginess to the skill when used to "self-cover" beyond always being in range of a nonexistent target and use while soloing.
Honestly, if you think there wasn't a bug/issue with being able to "self-cover" that the devs would've fixed it? Extensive testing showed significant increases in evasion while self covering (my SK's parrying alone would parse out 10% higher than it should have against white mobs alone) while my berserker was evading, blocking, or parrying 15% more hits total than should've been expected. Which at 44% chance to self-cover with Vehemence M1 and ~40% evasion/block/parry is almost spot on to recycling my evasion check. Maybe this bug only affected certain races, certain pets, or certain methods of covering and dismissing, but I could get it to consistently work on both my SK and my Berserker. Just ask my healer, who got so bored with me doing it one night on my Berserker he asked me to go into offensive stance.
As for why fix it? What if you were one of the people who weren't using this "trick?" You get in groups, you're a worse tank than someone else who is using the trick, you build a worse reputation, while the person using a bug is considered a better tank than you. The player using the bug solos better than you, has less downtime, and is less likely to die while fleeing from mobs. Would you be outraged if you found out 3 months later that your defense performed 10-20% worse than other people consistently because they were exploiting bugs? If you learned of the bug yourself would you use it, and keep it quiet, solely because then you'd be superior to people who didn't know of the bug?
I don't think that anyone actively thought this was a bug, or was maliciously abusing it, but players who were covering pets and thus "self-covering" did have an advantage over others, even over other players who were instead covering party members as the ability was intended in the first place. Even if there was no recycled evasion check players who were covering others were receiving the stat bonus permanently, regardless of the location of their target, which alone is probably more than enough reason for the devs to want to fix this ability.
Personally I'd rather there be less bugs in the game, and less artificial separation of people's performance. Skill, prescience and knowledge should be what differentiates players, not questionable bugs.

Urglu · 03-24-2006, 08:03 PM

Kasar wrote:
Urglunt wrote:
It didn't work like that. You kept the secondary effect, but the avoidance check did not recycle back on you.
Always seemed cosmetic to me as well, at least that part. I didn't use a pet, the guardian version placed on a player would stay after they'd left in the same way. I never got a message that'd indicate it did anything except the additional parry skill. It usually shows that so-n-so blocks when it works.
Message Edited by Kasar on 03-24-200604:45 AM

You are correct Kasar. I actually have a Guardian and a Bruiser, and after certain people made comments about the double avoidance trick (a long time ago) I went through pages and pages of logs, and even did some testing. The avoidance portion did not stack and give you a second chance to avoid the hit. The fact that someone spent months reporting this as a bug makes me laugh; maybe he should change his name to Dimwit.

Urglu · 03-24-2006, 08:09 PM

Dimglow wrote:
Extensive testing showed significant increases in evasion while self covering (my SK's parrying alone would parse out 10% higher than it should have against white mobs alone) while my berserker was evading, blocking, or parrying 15% more hits total than should've been expected. Which at 44% chance to self-cover with Vehemence M1 and ~40% evasion/block/parry is almost spot on to recycling my evasion check. Maybe this bug only affected certain races, certain pets, or certain methods of covering and dismissing, but I could get it to consistently work on both my SK and my Berserker. Just ask my healer, who got so bored with me doing it one night on my Berserker he asked me to go into offensive stance.

[Edit] Let's just say I disagree with your findings and I'll leave it at that.

Message Edited by Urglunt on 03-24-200610:28 AM

infernus006 · 03-24-2006, 08:32 PM

"What if you were one of the people who weren't using this "trick?" You get in groups, you're a worse tank than someone else who is using the trick, you build a worse reputation, while the person using a bug is considered a better tank than you."BS, there was no "trick" to it. You casted the buff on someone, whether it be a real person or a pet, and you got some extra AGI from it. That is all. You left the group or killed the pet and you kept the AGI unless you died or cancelled the spell on purpose. There was nothing more to it than that and there was nothing wrong with it the way it was. I don't know one person who would purposely drop the buff just so they would not have the extra AGI while solo. Because that would be stupid. This change hurts everyone who plays this class, it does nothing good at all for anyone, except people trying to kill us on the PvP server or in duels, it will make it a bit easier for them to do that if they are a melee class (particularly a scout)."Personally I'd rather there be less bugs in the game, and less artificial separation of people's performance."There was no separation. Everyone used the spell the same way and everyone got the same benefit from it. There is no way that the extra avoidance check was "recycling" back on you, that is impossible. I already told you that just because it showed your name as the target sometimes didn't mean squat. If that really was a problem though then they should have just fixed that problem instead of totally nerfing the ability to use the extra AGI points while solo. The fact of the matter is that before this change I had 275 AGI and 54% avoidance while solo and now I only have 209 AGI and 52% avoidance. And that makes me mad.

Dimgl · 03-24-2006, 08:37 PM

[Edit] Let's just say I disagree with your findings and I'll leave it at that.
Message Edited by Urglunt on 03-24-200610:28 AM

I appreciate you being civil (despite the "Dimwit" comment), though I did see what you wrote before the edit. :smileyhappy: I'm not trying to be hostile here either.

Whether or not either of our test cases could prove either way conclusively is probably difficult to argue. Even if we both went out and tested for hours on the same mobs the RNG could've given entirely different results. My experience showed evasion acting out of line with what would be expected while using the ability compared to when the ability was toggled off. The only people who can say for sure whether or not the ability was working one way or another are the devs and the coders.

Even still, that aside, it was still advantageous to cover and dismiss a pet (to permanently have the buff) than to have it on a party member and have to remain near them to receive the benefit. Even if it was fixed solely for that reason, it was still a bugfix.

KFizzle · 03-24-2006, 10:22 PM

This SUUUUCKKKS!!! I always thought it was a bug myself but i didnt care, i like Inf liked the extra agi it gave...and god damnit i didnt even know i could have cast it on a shroom otherwise i would have been doing that when i couldnt get a friggen person to group with me a sec so ic ould cast it on them then go back to soloing!

FightGame · 03-25-2006, 01:45 AM

Dimglow, you understand that the ability gave you extra agility, therefore your avoidance would be higher, therefore you won't get hit as much. It was the extra agility, not the "second chance" of an avoidance.

The only way to compare data here, would be to have it turned on yourself (your own pet, which we can't do any more), and run a bunch of parses (check your agility and avoidance), and then compare that to having it turned off, but some how keeping that same agility and avoidance.

The way I see it, is that your arguement is, that we got some kind of extra chance of avoiding a hit, when it really just was a very slightly better SINGLE chance of avoiding a hit, and this is due to the added agility.

Ya, before this "fix", it hurt aboslutely NOBODY, and because of people thinking it's some kind of "bug" and reporting all kinds of WRONG information, it now hurts EVERYONE. thanks. I wonder if they went through every single class to "fix" issues like this. Probably not, because every single class probably didn't have somebody screaming "bug" with all kinds of misinformation. I wish Sony would do some testing themselves, and not simply act on people's complaints.

I also see that Open Wounds says it only affects up to 4 enemies. When was this changed????

infernus006 · 03-25-2006, 01:58 AM

"it was still advantageous to cover and dismiss a pet (to permanently have the buff) than to have it on a party member and have to remain near them to receive the benefit. Even if it was fixed solely for that reason, it was still a bugfix."And that was the best thing about this spell. It was basically a permantent AGI buff that helped our soloing ability by giving us more avoidance against melee attacks, when we needed it the most, when we are by ourselves. And now we can only use it when we are grouped with someone else. The extra AGI we get from this spell is much more trivial when we are grouped with other people who have their own AGI/avoidance buffs on us. IMO we did not need to have our soloing abilty nerfed at all (as in it was not anywhere near overpowered before this change took effect) therefore there was no need for this change at all. Because that is the only thing it effects, our soloing ability, which was just fine the way it was (maybe a little underpowered if you ask me). This is just another stupid, pointless nerf by SOE thanks to some whiny misinformed tattletales running their mouths off to the devs for no good reason.

Message Edited by infernus006 on 03-24-200604:02 PM

Pegesus · 03-25-2006, 08:08 PM

As much as i loved having the xtra agi and increased avoidance. It was in fact a bug. I'm sad to see it go but by no means should this be considered a nerf to our class. It should never of been able to happen. I lost 3% avoidance now and 74 agi. Its noticable. I'm not gonna cry about it because i knew it was comming. The kite sheilds and tower shields don't make any sense to me at all. Guess it was SOE's way of allowing crusaders the same blocking as us warriors. However the kite sheild won't give you an increase in mitigation as our tower shields do so yeah for us.Juggernaut still is a pile to trash. Even after the lower the mitigation down to -1080. Its still a worthless spell that doesn't do nearly as much damage as it should. IMO they should leave the debuffs but make the spell kinda like our frienzed blows except hit for over 1k each time or something. On a side not has anyone notice VoM not working properly. it popped off for me twice yesterday and each time i barely regened any life at all. I have it at Master 1 and usually its a savior for me on certain named fights when solo. But both times yesterday looks to only have regened 1 tick and not any others.

SugarGirl · 03-25-2006, 09:44 PM

Pegesus11 wrote:On a side not has anyone notice VoM not working properly. it popped off for me twice yesterday and each time i barely regened any life at all. I have it at Master 1 and usually its a savior for me on certain named fights when solo. But both times yesterday looks to only have regened 1 tick and not any others.

Yes, I have noticed this too. On several occassions I have had VoM trigger, but it only healed for the initial hit and not the ticks after ward. I looked through the logs and it only shows one proc (VoM has healed you for 109 HP). I'll /bug it next time it happens.

Ep · 03-26-2006, 07:16 PM

buffing pet was a bug, it was obvious when a spell says target player, yet you can cast it on your shroom pet that does nothing and get benefit.VoM worked fine for me last night, i saw it go off then countdown.

infernus006 · 03-27-2006, 09:18 PM

Just so you guys know this spell is not actually fixed. There is still a way that you can make it stay on you when you're solo and it's not even that hard to do. Unfortunately I cannot say how to do it since we have too many blabbermouths around here that care more about getting them to fix so-called "exploits" in the game before fixing actual problems that really hurt people, like our now completely broken Insolent Gibe spell. In any case it just goes to show that this last update was nothing but a big fat joke and they don't know how to do anything right.

Message Edited by infernus006 on 03-27-200602:23 PM

uux · 03-27-2006, 10:03 PM

lithium20x wrote:
Also another note about sheilds- Kite shields at all levels now provide the same chance to block as tower shields (12%).- Round shields of all levels now provide a consistent chance to block (8%).
Message Edited by lithium20x on 03-23-200611:43 AM

There seems to be more to this. I checked out the Crimson Rock Targe after the change and it did get a little boost. Crimson Rock TargeAt first glance, it looks like it provides more Protection than pristine imbued xegonite tower and kite shields (just an example). pristine imbued xegonite kite shield pristine imbued xegonite tower shieldEquipping the Crimson Rock Targe and mousing over Avoidance in the Persona window states 12.3% block rate. Equipping the pristine imbued xegonite kite shield and checking Avoidance again states 13.6% block rate, and overall avoidance is indeed slightly higher (no AGI on the kite shield to interfere with overall avoidance). So apparently a shield with a Protection of 1114 can provide a lesser block rate than a shield with a Protection of 1005. /boggle.EDIT: Fixed the actual numbers I see.

Message Edited by uux on 03-27-200606:04 PM

infernus006 · 03-27-2006, 10:31 PM

^ I don't see how that is possible, they should be giving the same exact block rate just as they said in the update notes. But then again so many other things in this patch were botched up it would not surprise me if they messed up on that too.

03-23-2006, 10:57 PM	#6
SugarGirl Loremaster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 379	Yes, I don't think that it's arguable that this was a bug... as much as I loved it, I knew it would go away someday. The thing that gets me is that they take such rapid action on a spell line that is of benefit to us, but never murmur a peep about the spell they put out that is of no benefit to zerkers whatsoever. I would like to know why the devs are so quick to respond to anything that might aide us in battle, but never respond to the items that are obviously a major concern to the playerbase? __________________ It's a wonderful day to chase a tornadoes. Rubble Rabble Rouser Leetjamzyo 80 Dirge/80 Jeweller/400 Tinker of Befallen

03-24-2006, 02:01 AM	#10
Urglu Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 129	Dimglow wrote: infernus006 wrote:"Kite shields at all levels now provide the same chance to block as tower shields (12%)."That is some BS too. Why should a smaller sheild have the same chance to block as a bigger one of the same quality material? That just makes no sense at all. But w/e, I'm more PO'ed about the change to Guarded Vehemence and the fact we are basically getting a huge AGI nerf by SOE while we are solo. Look at how much less avoidance you will have now without that buff on when you are trying to solo. Fing BS. I'm getting really sick of all these dumb pointless decisions they keep making lately. The change to our cover-other line, or Guarded Vehemence, was due to an exploitable bug with the ability. If you covered a pet, like the mushroom from Splitpaw, and then dismissed it the ability would retarget yourself, allowing the fighter to recycle their evasion check. (% chance to use their evasion check again.) Notice that this was fixed for -all- fighters, not just Berserkers. It doesn't need to be said how incredibly broken this is/was. I reported it ingame, bugged it ingame, and also sent the devs PMs over it (not even a few days ago.) I'm glad they quickly fixed it after finding the bug. If you want to blame anyone for this "nerf" I guess you can blame me, not the devs. I don't understand how you can be so "upset" about a change when you had no idea what the implications or reasoning behind changing the ability were. Think about the brawlers who were able to have 70% evasion, with a high chance to use that 70% over again, giving them 80-90% real evasion. It didn't work like that. You kept the secondary effect, but the avoidance check did not recycle back on you.

03-24-2006, 09:32 AM	#12
Ep General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 435	i kept 2pets up most of the time, shroom pet and new kos collection bird... *sigh now they just good for aoe's __________________ --- Sir Auron

03-24-2006, 11:31 AM	#14
Kasar Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 540	Urglunt wrote: It didn't work like that. You kept the secondary effect, but the avoidance check did not recycle back on you. Always seemed cosmetic to me as well, at least that part. I didn't use a pet, the guardian version placed on a player would stay after they'd left in the same way. I never got a message that'd indicate it did anything except the additional parry skill. It usually shows that so-n-so blocks when it works. Message Edited by Kasar on 03-24-200604:45 AM

03-24-2006, 08:02 PM	#15
Dimgl General Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 381	Personal insult aside, Tested it with both my 60 Shadowknight and 52 Berserker, in both cases evasion was significanly higher against white con mobs, moreso than would be expected by receiving the passive parry bonus (for sks) or the passive agility bonus (for berserkers.) At the very least there appeared to be some kind of secondary effect/bugginess to the skill when used to "self-cover" beyond always being in range of a nonexistent target and use while soloing. Honestly, if you think there wasn't a bug/issue with being able to "self-cover" that the devs would've fixed it? Extensive testing showed significant increases in evasion while self covering (my SK's parrying alone would parse out 10% higher than it should have against white mobs alone) while my berserker was evading, blocking, or parrying 15% more hits total than should've been expected. Which at 44% chance to self-cover with Vehemence M1 and ~40% evasion/block/parry is almost spot on to recycling my evasion check. Maybe this bug only affected certain races, certain pets, or certain methods of covering and dismissing, but I could get it to consistently work on both my SK and my Berserker. Just ask my healer, who got so bored with me doing it one night on my Berserker he asked me to go into offensive stance. As for why fix it? What if you were one of the people who weren't using this "trick?" You get in groups, you're a worse tank than someone else who is using the trick, you build a worse reputation, while the person using a bug is considered a better tank than you. The player using the bug solos better than you, has less downtime, and is less likely to die while fleeing from mobs. Would you be outraged if you found out 3 months later that your defense performed 10-20% worse than other people consistently because they were exploiting bugs? If you learned of the bug yourself would you use it, and keep it quiet, solely because then you'd be superior to people who didn't know of the bug? I don't think that anyone actively thought this was a bug, or was maliciously abusing it, but players who were covering pets and thus "self-covering" did have an advantage over others, even over other players who were instead covering party members as the ability was intended in the first place. Even if there was no recycled evasion check players who were covering others were receiving the stat bonus permanently, regardless of the location of their target, which alone is probably more than enough reason for the devs to want to fix this ability. Personally I'd rather there be less bugs in the game, and less artificial separation of people's performance. Skill, prescience and knowledge should be what differentiates players, not questionable bugs.

03-23-2006, 09:32 PM	#1
Legiax Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: England Posts: 353	Berserker changes:- Juggernaut's penalties no longer increase as the art is upgraded.- Insolent Gibe will no longer initially cast onto other players in the area.- Reckless Aide will now expire if the ally it was cast on is no longer present. The target must now be another player. Sigh... who went and /petitioned the Reckless Aide bug? i loved buffing my mushroom and running around =/ Nice to know DEV's have been reading the Juggernaut threads though... now they just need to take 1 more step and slightly reduce the penalties.

03-23-2006, 09:42 PM	#2
infernus006 Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Location: NY, USA Posts: 863	[Removed for Content] it...is Reckless Aide a prior verison of Guarded Vehemence? That's sucks we won't be able to use that extra AGI while soloing now. [Removed for Content] their nerfs. And as far as I'm concerned they can take that Juggernaut spell and shove it because that whole spell is just one big nerf to our class.

03-23-2006, 09:43 PM	#3
lithium20x Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 9	Also another note about sheilds- Kite shields at all levels now provide the same chance to block as tower shields (12%).- Round shields of all levels now provide a consistent chance to block (8%). Message Edited by lithium20x on 03-23-200611:43 AM

03-23-2006, 09:52 PM	#4
infernus006 Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Location: NY, USA Posts: 863	"Kite shields at all levels now provide the same chance to block as tower shields (12%)."That is some BS too. Why should a smaller sheild have the same chance to block as a bigger one of the same quality material? That just makes no sense at all. But w/e, I'm more PO'ed about the change to Guarded Vehemence and the fact we are basically getting a huge AGI nerf by SOE while we are solo. Look at how much less avoidance you will have now without that buff on when you are trying to solo. Fing BS. I'm getting really sick of all these dumb pointless decisions they keep making lately.

03-23-2006, 10:37 PM	#5
Dimgl General Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 381	infernus006 wrote:"Kite shields at all levels now provide the same chance to block as tower shields (12%)."That is some BS too. Why should a smaller sheild have the same chance to block as a bigger one of the same quality material? That just makes no sense at all. But w/e, I'm more PO'ed about the change to Guarded Vehemence and the fact we are basically getting a huge AGI nerf by SOE while we are solo. Look at how much less avoidance you will have now without that buff on when you are trying to solo. Fing BS. I'm getting really sick of all these dumb pointless decisions they keep making lately. The change to our cover-other line, or Guarded Vehemence, was due to an exploitable bug with the ability. If you covered a pet, like the mushroom from Splitpaw, and then dismissed it the ability would retarget yourself, allowing the fighter to recycle their evasion check. (% chance to use their evasion check again.) Notice that this was fixed for -all- fighters, not just Berserkers. It doesn't need to be said how incredibly broken this is/was. I reported it ingame, bugged it ingame, and also sent the devs PMs over it (not even a few days ago.) I'm glad they quickly fixed it after finding the bug. If you want to blame anyone for this "nerf" I guess you can blame me, not the devs. I don't understand how you can be so "upset" about a change when you had no idea what the implications or reasoning behind changing the ability were. Think about the brawlers who were able to have 70% evasion, with a high chance to use that 70% over again, giving them 80-90% real evasion.

03-24-2006, 12:08 AM	#7
Asmadai Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 7	Seriously, it was a BUG. Complaining about a 'nerf' whenever they just fixed a known BUG is just pointless. Heck I just started my Berserker recently and had already seen this bug. Was kinda hoping they'd take longer to fix it, but whatever, the AGI from it will not make or break us. Heck I bet it won't even be noticable.

03-24-2006, 12:36 AM	#8
Bremer Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,902	Even if it was a bug that the spell had an extra chance to avoid a hit using your avoidance, with this change we now have 60+ agi less solo Nachricht bearbeitet von Bremer am 03-23-200608:37 PM

03-24-2006, 01:52 AM	#9
infernus006 Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Location: NY, USA Posts: 863	"If you covered a pet, like the mushroom from Splitpaw, and then dismissed it the ability would retarget yourself, allowing the fighter to recycle their evasion check. (% chance to use their evasion check again.)"I was not aware of that problem. I only cast the buff on my mushroom pet when I am solo to get the extra 65 AGI points, nothing more. All I know and care about regarding this change is that after it goes into effect I will have 65 points less AGI when I am solo than I usually have and that will hurt my survivability in duels a lot as well. The way the spell is right now today does not make us overpowered by any means. As it is right now fully self-buffed with this spell on I have just barely 50% avoidance at level 70 against a same-level opponent in full defensive mode. I can barely solo blue^^^ mobs as it is whereas I know other classes that can solo yellow and orange ones with ease. I never bothered complaing about that before but now that they are nerfing my AGI I guess I will. So basically the one AGI buff we get can no longer be used while solo at all. How can you be happy about that?FYI just because you mouse-over the icon in your maintained spells window and it has your name there as the target doesn't mean that you are getting the extra avoidance check bonus from it. I have been in groups many times where I casted the buff on someone else and it still had my name there instead of theirs. IMO that was just a display bug.I would be happy if they would at least keep this ability allowed to be cast on pets but you have to keep the pet out for the AGI bonus to stay in effect instead of it staying on after you killed the pet. I could live with having to drag the stupid pet around with me and the possibility of it getting killed during battle and having the AGI drop off at that time. But it doesn't make sense for us to have to suffer with less AGI from one of our own buffs just because we are not grouped with someone else to cast it on. I think that was the whole reason why they had the spell the way it was all this time so that we wouldn't be shorted on AGI while solo. But because whiny people like you cried about it and begged them to nerf your own class we all have to suffer for it now. Way to go. Message Edited by infernus006 on 03-23-200604:28 PM

03-24-2006, 09:28 AM	#11
infernus006 Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Location: NY, USA Posts: 863	This change does nothing but nerf our soloability. I have lost at least 2% of my avoidance from not being able to have this buff on while solo.

03-24-2006, 09:50 AM	#13
denche Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7	"It doesn't need to be said how incredibly broken this is/was. I reported it ingame, bugged it ingame, and also sent the devs PMs over it (not even a few days ago.) I'm glad they quickly fixed it after finding the bug. If you want to blame anyone for this "nerf" I guess you can blame me, not the devs." oh my god.. have you made sure to go through every class spell line and report everyone one of em that allowed the caster to cast a group buff on thier mushroom pet? because if not, you really need a new hobby It was incredibly broken?? where's all the outraged posts from everyone talking about the horrible exploit anyone / everyone has by being able to cast on thier pet? What a waste of time "fix" to a non-issue that negatively impacted no-one..

03-24-2006, 08:03 PM	#16
Urglu Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 129	Kasar wrote: Urglunt wrote: It didn't work like that. You kept the secondary effect, but the avoidance check did not recycle back on you. Always seemed cosmetic to me as well, at least that part. I didn't use a pet, the guardian version placed on a player would stay after they'd left in the same way. I never got a message that'd indicate it did anything except the additional parry skill. It usually shows that so-n-so blocks when it works. Message Edited by Kasar on 03-24-200604:45 AM You are correct Kasar. I actually have a Guardian and a Bruiser, and after certain people made comments about the double avoidance trick (a long time ago) I went through pages and pages of logs, and even did some testing. The avoidance portion did not stack and give you a second chance to avoid the hit. The fact that someone spent months reporting this as a bug makes me laugh; maybe he should change his name to Dimwit.

03-24-2006, 08:09 PM	#17
Urglu Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 129	Dimglow wrote: Extensive testing showed significant increases in evasion while self covering (my SK's parrying alone would parse out 10% higher than it should have against white mobs alone) while my berserker was evading, blocking, or parrying 15% more hits total than should've been expected. Which at 44% chance to self-cover with Vehemence M1 and ~40% evasion/block/parry is almost spot on to recycling my evasion check. Maybe this bug only affected certain races, certain pets, or certain methods of covering and dismissing, but I could get it to consistently work on both my SK and my Berserker. Just ask my healer, who got so bored with me doing it one night on my Berserker he asked me to go into offensive stance. [Edit] Let's just say I disagree with your findings and I'll leave it at that. Message Edited by Urglunt on 03-24-200610:28 AM

03-24-2006, 08:32 PM	#18
infernus006 Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Location: NY, USA Posts: 863	"What if you were one of the people who weren't using this "trick?" You get in groups, you're a worse tank than someone else who is using the trick, you build a worse reputation, while the person using a bug is considered a better tank than you."BS, there was no "trick" to it. You casted the buff on someone, whether it be a real person or a pet, and you got some extra AGI from it. That is all. You left the group or killed the pet and you kept the AGI unless you died or cancelled the spell on purpose. There was nothing more to it than that and there was nothing wrong with it the way it was. I don't know one person who would purposely drop the buff just so they would not have the extra AGI while solo. Because that would be stupid. This change hurts everyone who plays this class, it does nothing good at all for anyone, except people trying to kill us on the PvP server or in duels, it will make it a bit easier for them to do that if they are a melee class (particularly a scout)."Personally I'd rather there be less bugs in the game, and less artificial separation of people's performance."There was no separation. Everyone used the spell the same way and everyone got the same benefit from it. There is no way that the extra avoidance check was "recycling" back on you, that is impossible. I already told you that just because it showed your name as the target sometimes didn't mean squat. If that really was a problem though then they should have just fixed that problem instead of totally nerfing the ability to use the extra AGI points while solo. The fact of the matter is that before this change I had 275 AGI and 54% avoidance while solo and now I only have 209 AGI and 52% avoidance. And that makes me mad.

03-24-2006, 08:37 PM	#19
Dimgl General Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 381	[Edit] Let's just say I disagree with your findings and I'll leave it at that. Message Edited by Urglunt on 03-24-200610:28 AM I appreciate you being civil (despite the "Dimwit" comment), though I did see what you wrote before the edit. :smileyhappy: I'm not trying to be hostile here either. Whether or not either of our test cases could prove either way conclusively is probably difficult to argue. Even if we both went out and tested for hours on the same mobs the RNG could've given entirely different results. My experience showed evasion acting out of line with what would be expected while using the ability compared to when the ability was toggled off. The only people who can say for sure whether or not the ability was working one way or another are the devs and the coders. Even still, that aside, it was still advantageous to cover and dismiss a pet (to permanently have the buff) than to have it on a party member and have to remain near them to receive the benefit. Even if it was fixed solely for that reason, it was still a bugfix.

03-24-2006, 10:22 PM	#20
KFizzle Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 236	This SUUUUCKKKS!!! I always thought it was a bug myself but i didnt care, i like Inf liked the extra agi it gave...and god damnit i didnt even know i could have cast it on a shroom otherwise i would have been doing that when i couldnt get a friggen person to group with me a sec so ic ould cast it on them then go back to soloing! __________________

03-25-2006, 01:45 AM	#21
FightGame Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 548	Dimglow, you understand that the ability gave you extra agility, therefore your avoidance would be higher, therefore you won't get hit as much. It was the extra agility, not the "second chance" of an avoidance. The only way to compare data here, would be to have it turned on yourself (your own pet, which we can't do any more), and run a bunch of parses (check your agility and avoidance), and then compare that to having it turned off, but some how keeping that same agility and avoidance. The way I see it, is that your arguement is, that we got some kind of extra chance of avoiding a hit, when it really just was a very slightly better SINGLE chance of avoiding a hit, and this is due to the added agility. Ya, before this "fix", it hurt aboslutely NOBODY, and because of people thinking it's some kind of "bug" and reporting all kinds of WRONG information, it now hurts EVERYONE. thanks. I wonder if they went through every single class to "fix" issues like this. Probably not, because every single class probably didn't have somebody screaming "bug" with all kinds of misinformation. I wish Sony would do some testing themselves, and not simply act on people's complaints. I also see that Open Wounds says it only affects up to 4 enemies. When was this changed???? __________________

03-25-2006, 01:58 AM	#22
infernus006 Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Location: NY, USA Posts: 863	"it was still advantageous to cover and dismiss a pet (to permanently have the buff) than to have it on a party member and have to remain near them to receive the benefit. Even if it was fixed solely for that reason, it was still a bugfix."And that was the best thing about this spell. It was basically a permantent AGI buff that helped our soloing ability by giving us more avoidance against melee attacks, when we needed it the most, when we are by ourselves. And now we can only use it when we are grouped with someone else. The extra AGI we get from this spell is much more trivial when we are grouped with other people who have their own AGI/avoidance buffs on us. IMO we did not need to have our soloing abilty nerfed at all (as in it was not anywhere near overpowered before this change took effect) therefore there was no need for this change at all. Because that is the only thing it effects, our soloing ability, which was just fine the way it was (maybe a little underpowered if you ask me). This is just another stupid, pointless nerf by SOE thanks to some whiny misinformed tattletales running their mouths off to the devs for no good reason. Message Edited by infernus006 on 03-24-200604:02 PM

03-25-2006, 08:08 PM	#23
Pegesus Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Florida Posts: 125	As much as i loved having the xtra agi and increased avoidance. It was in fact a bug. I'm sad to see it go but by no means should this be considered a nerf to our class. It should never of been able to happen. I lost 3% avoidance now and 74 agi. Its noticable. I'm not gonna cry about it because i knew it was comming. The kite sheilds and tower shields don't make any sense to me at all. Guess it was SOE's way of allowing crusaders the same blocking as us warriors. However the kite sheild won't give you an increase in mitigation as our tower shields do so yeah for us.Juggernaut still is a pile to trash. Even after the lower the mitigation down to -1080. Its still a worthless spell that doesn't do nearly as much damage as it should. IMO they should leave the debuffs but make the spell kinda like our frienzed blows except hit for over 1k each time or something. On a side not has anyone notice VoM not working properly. it popped off for me twice yesterday and each time i barely regened any life at all. I have it at Master 1 and usually its a savior for me on certain named fights when solo. But both times yesterday looks to only have regened 1 tick and not any others.

03-25-2006, 09:44 PM	#24
SugarGirl Loremaster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 379	Pegesus11 wrote:On a side not has anyone notice VoM not working properly. it popped off for me twice yesterday and each time i barely regened any life at all. I have it at Master 1 and usually its a savior for me on certain named fights when solo. But both times yesterday looks to only have regened 1 tick and not any others. Yes, I have noticed this too. On several occassions I have had VoM trigger, but it only healed for the initial hit and not the ticks after ward. I looked through the logs and it only shows one proc (VoM has healed you for 109 HP). I'll /bug it next time it happens. __________________ It's a wonderful day to chase a tornadoes. Rubble Rabble Rouser Leetjamzyo 80 Dirge/80 Jeweller/400 Tinker of Befallen

03-26-2006, 07:16 PM	#25
Ep General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 435	buffing pet was a bug, it was obvious when a spell says target player, yet you can cast it on your shroom pet that does nothing and get benefit.VoM worked fine for me last night, i saw it go off then countdown. __________________ --- Sir Auron

03-27-2006, 09:18 PM	#26
infernus006 Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Location: NY, USA Posts: 863	Just so you guys know this spell is not actually fixed. There is still a way that you can make it stay on you when you're solo and it's not even that hard to do. Unfortunately I cannot say how to do it since we have too many blabbermouths around here that care more about getting them to fix so-called "exploits" in the game before fixing actual problems that really hurt people, like our now completely broken Insolent Gibe spell. In any case it just goes to show that this last update was nothing but a big fat joke and they don't know how to do anything right. Message Edited by infernus006 on 03-27-200602:23 PM

03-27-2006, 10:03 PM	#27
uux Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 486	lithium20x wrote: Also another note about sheilds- Kite shields at all levels now provide the same chance to block as tower shields (12%).- Round shields of all levels now provide a consistent chance to block (8%). Message Edited by lithium20x on 03-23-200611:43 AM There seems to be more to this. I checked out the Crimson Rock Targe after the change and it did get a little boost. Crimson Rock TargeAt first glance, it looks like it provides more Protection than pristine imbued xegonite tower and kite shields (just an example). pristine imbued xegonite kite shield pristine imbued xegonite tower shieldEquipping the Crimson Rock Targe and mousing over Avoidance in the Persona window states 12.3% block rate. Equipping the pristine imbued xegonite kite shield and checking Avoidance again states 13.6% block rate, and overall avoidance is indeed slightly higher (no AGI on the kite shield to interfere with overall avoidance). So apparently a shield with a Protection of 1114 can provide a lesser block rate than a shield with a Protection of 1005. /boggle.EDIT: Fixed the actual numbers I see. Message Edited by uux on 03-27-200606:04 PM

03-27-2006, 10:31 PM	#28
infernus006 Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Location: NY, USA Posts: 863	^ I don't see how that is possible, they should be giving the same exact block rate just as they said in the update notes. But then again so many other things in this patch were botched up it would not surprise me if they messed up on that too.