Picking your raid force...Tell me what good I am now? (not a rant, just a question)

Wrathcast · 08-08-2005, 06:06 PM

Remember back in grade school when we lined up and the captains picked the dodge ball teams. Well for the sake of this post lets say there are 50 of us lined up along the wall the day after the combat changes in Test go live and someone has to pick the best 24 to take out Darathar.

So the captains first pick is the biggest and badest Guardian (because, well they are statistically better at being the MT then the Berserker). There are 23 other open spots. Can someone give me a rational reasoning that you “the captain” would pick a Berserker over any other class for one of these 23 remaining spots. Keep in mind the changes that hit beta and now the test server are in effect. So the Berserker no longer has the group HP and Haste buffs it once did. Tell me why you picked the Berserker over someone else. A hypothetical scenario, but certainly one we will all face when the test patch goes live.

Message Edited by Wrathcaster on 08-08-2005 07:08 AM

Nazo · 08-08-2005, 08:31 PM

Pal to answer your question raid leaders will spend endless hours mixing and changing groups before and after the coming raid wipes :smileyvery-happy:

What you dont see as an unimportant minor ability may end up as an absolute must to have tomorrow...

Rhayv · 08-08-2005, 09:48 PM

That in combat hp regen looks nice..... But its impossible to answer your question cause we dont know the full effect of the revamp for our class or others for that matter.

Message Edited by Rhayven on 08-08-2005 10:48 AM

Ol'b · 08-08-2005, 10:30 PM

Rhayven , you've never raided have u.. C'omon Hp regen will matter ZERO in a raid situation

Message Edited by Ol'boy on 08-08-2005 11:30 AM

Sambora · 08-08-2005, 10:43 PM

Looks like there will be no need for Zerkers in the MT group during raids anymore. We have gone from being able to add 1100 HP's and 70% haste to HP regen!?!?!??! OMG!! Let's see Darathar consistently hits for 2-6K+.....oh ya, I can see where someone could care about a buff that regens, what is it, 54 per tick?!!?

Nice job SOE

The fact that they are smashing a class after 9 [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] moths of live gameplay is a complete and utter joke! I really hope that this pisses off people enough to leave this game. That's the only way we can make these c---suckers care.

KittenClaw · 08-09-2005, 02:35 AM

Ol'boy, Sambora Did you miss the fact that they took anchor away from guardians and gave it to us? What about the hitpoint buffs, and the mitigation buffs? Did you overlook Havoc? The list goes on... I really like most of the changes Berserkers will now be the main raid tanks vs crushing mobs, and more than likely on most raids Guardians will be guarding the berserkers. You ask who would allow us to be the main raid tank? Any one who knows how to raid, and wishes to have a successful raid will now have a berserker main tank and a guardian main assist, if the combat changes remain anything similer to what they show now. Who would allow a Paladin to main tank on a serious raid? Paladins cannot hold the taunt worth a hill of beans. Paladins are not meant to be raid tanks. They can tank in groups, but frankly why should they if there are other people who do it better and are available? It seems to me that people are looking for something to complain about, I mean the changes look great to me, for berserkers... If you ask me the only ones with any complaining rights are guardians who didn't read the discription of their class and went off of what other players said when they made their character. Of course, I am a level 45 kerra Berserker and I cannot really see what has been done to most of the spells I use. I have only been playing since around the beginning of May, so perhaps I am not as set in my ways as some who have been playing from the very beginning. I don't think that SOE is trying to mess up the game. I think they are trying to improve it, or at least make it better resemble the vision they had when making it. They have been working on this revamp practically since launch, it hasn't been a secret. The only thing I really don't like is the buff Tides of War changing from a speed increase to a strength buff. What use is more strength if we are tanking? Correct me if I am wrong please, but I believe that strength is going to effect how hard you hit and the amount of power you have. How does that improve our tanking abilities? To the person who stated that they would forfeit their plate armour for chain, allow me to say this: If I wanted to wear chain armour and be DPS I would have made an assassin, a ranger or even a monk/bruiser as they are a scout-fighters. I wanted to be a tank, so I made (and I quote the NPC that you spoke with to choose "warrior"at level 9) a meat shield, and I chose the path of the warrior. Why would they make a "meat shield" wear chain armour? That is not logical. Think back to the day you chose which type of fighter you were going to be. When you chose the path of a "meat shield" you chose a warrior. If you read the description of your class when you picked it from the NPC at level 19 you will recall that it asked you two questions. 1.) Do you want to prevent your allies from taking damage? If you picked this one you became a Guardian. 2.) Do you want to be at the front of the fray receiving and dealing damage? If you picked this one you became a Berserker. It seems to me that they are just making our classes better fit the class description. I picked berserker from that description, not from what other players told me guardians and berserkers were. If you want to be DPS, play a scout. If you want to be a tank, well, I think you might have picked the correct class.

Ol'b · 08-09-2005, 09:05 AM

Did you miss the fact that they took anchor away from guardians and gave it to us? What about the hitpoint buffs, and the mitigation buffs? Did you overlook Havoc? The list goes on... I really like most of the changes

Berserkers will now be the main raid tanks vs crushing mobs, and more than likely on most raids Guardians will be guarding the berserkers.

I disagree 100%

Carancir · 08-09-2005, 11:03 AM

No pun intented Kitten but having missed the greater part of how this game played and evolved since November last year you prolly shouldn't go about patronizing other players - obviously lacking any (solid) raid-experience in EQ2. I just can't hear that "tank"=low dps nonsense anymore. No matter what class is going to be the MT in your guild in the long run any solid guild will have more "meatshields" than are needed for raiding - there has to be fighter-dps for this game to work (and it will stay very close to that of scouts after the revamp i'm pretty sure). This thread is about legitimate concerns i do share as well but the info on what's coming up is incomplete and due to change. All i can say is that the revamp has to take into account that a big portion of the playerbase are fighter-classes and they have to be accounted for in the end-game aka raiding - and SOE should know this. Fighter-dps? Big time!

Hier · 08-09-2005, 12:46 PM

HAH ah... HAHAh..ah... funny

THINK bout it.. want the gaurd dudey pachudy that does nutin but soak up the DAM"age or us while we do teh same thing but kick [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] and regain hp that we lose.. making the job easy for the rest of the group..

we still have our taunts .. just remember when we go up against a gaurd or pally... when your too sad of grinding to tank you sit on the side... haste... hit... taunt oops my bad stole agro.... my bad again.... my bad again.... damnit PALLY KEEP THE AGRO... I cant be the MT Of the GROUP.... Remember we kick [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] when it comes to agro... become the fire and lic em other brahs while your at it!

and remember.... it's just a game :smileytongue:

Wrathcast · 08-09-2005, 04:43 PM

Well just checking in to see if anyone came up with a legitimate reason for us to be picked for a Darathar raid. Unfortunately, it looks as if no one can come up with a good reasons just yet. Please keep trying, I would love for someone to say the Berserker offers "blah blah" to a raid that no one else does. Maybe a DEV would like to take a shot at it? To bad our new HP regen wont help a 6k pt hit from Darathar, unless of course it’s a 200hp per tick in combat regen... /comes back to earth

Did you miss the fact that they took anchor away from guardians and gave it to us? What about the hitpoint buffs, and the mitigation buffs? Did you overlook Havoc? The list goes on... I really like most of the changes

As for this reply... ugg! I think someone is standing at the station and just missed the train go by. Then again he is level 45 so he has only played about 5% of what the game offers.

YellowKi · 08-09-2005, 05:26 PM

I'm a 50th level Berserker and have completed almost every raid in the game multiple times. I'm not freaking out about it. So if anyone wants to claim that I'm not mad about the changes because I don't know how to play my class, you can stop right there. As mentioned before, we're not going to truly be able to answer your question until the change goes live and guilds get out there and start raiding. It is simply impossible to look at the limited information we have now and say, "Oh yeah, well that will be crucial for this and this."

This is even more apparent when we don't even know how the OTHER classes have changed. You're looking at it from a perspective of, "Oh, they took away our HP buffs, we have nothing to bring to a raid." Perhaps that would be true if post combat-overhaul, everybody but us had remained exactly the same. As it stands, again we just don't know.

One change that might become apparent is that Berserkers actually get a chance to tank once in awhile! That's a good thing IMO. Don't know about you, but when I rolled up a Berserker my first thought wasn't, "Cool! I'll be the guy that gets to stand in the main tank group and cast HP buffs over and over!"

Message Edited by YellowKing on 08-09-2005 06:31 AM

Rhayv · 08-09-2005, 05:43 PM

Ol'boy wrote:

Rhayven , you've never raided have u.. C'omon Hp regen will matter ZERO in a raid situation

Message Edited by Ol'boy on 08-08-2005 11:30 AM

LOL Yeah an extra healer will mean nothing on darathar....... I have seen raid tanks go down to 1hp before being brought up so yeah 54 extra ticks of health will not help im sure.

tbotus · 08-09-2005, 06:53 PM

Why do you keep saying things about Darathar? He is the extreme, not the norm.

It was 59 hp per tick at Adept 1, by the way. And that was the T4 spell. Therefore, your casters using mana conversion will be quite happy. Think of it as reverse breeze. I don't go around complaining, "What the heck!? I only get 60 mana a tick?! That doesn't help at all!"

Because it does. Every little bit helps. You say they go down to 1 hp before being brought back up? What if they had 60 fewer HP? They'd be dead. Don't look at all negatives. Berserkers may have lost their HP buffs, but Guardians lost stackability of their buffs as well, leveling out the HP playing field between the tanks. Likewise, you gained the ability to make the whole group go berserk. So who might be in the scout group from time to time when too many tanks are present, that may have been left out entirely before? Mmm?

Strategically speaking, you now have some diversity and some purpose. Likewise, you can now LEAD the fray instead of being fodder.

What makes me an authority of Berserkers vs. Guardians? I have to try and heal your goofy butts. In the present system, you take damage almost identically, massive raid mobs aside. Take my word on that. My only job is monitoring how well YOU tank and determining whether your worth healing.

Show me SOLID proof that now you're useless in comparison with Guardians. Go on, do it. I'll give you a dollar.

--Alonden
45 Inquisitor, Crushbone

kono · 08-09-2005, 07:38 PM

tbotus wrote:
Show me SOLID proof that now you're useless in comparison with Guardians. Go on, do it. I'll give you a dollar.

--Alonden
45 Inquisitor, Crushbone

In my opinion, it's not really about Berserker vs. Guardian, it's about that fourth or fifth fighter vs. a DPS class. Every raid needs an MT, and it might be us now and then, that's fine. But after you've got three or four fighters on a raid force, it seems you'd rather have any mage or scout now. In a balanced system, your ideal 24-man force would want one character of each subclass, or failing that, six of each archetype.

najena.konk

Rhayv · 08-09-2005, 07:51 PM

tbotus wrote:
Why do you keep saying things about Darathar? He is the extreme, not the norm.

It was 59 hp per tick at Adept 1, by the way. And that was the T4 spell. Therefore, your casters using mana conversion will be quite happy. Think of it as reverse breeze. I don't go around complaining, "What the heck!? I only get 60 mana a tick?! That doesn't help at all!"

Because it does. Every little bit helps. You say they go down to 1 hp before being brought back up? What if they had 60 fewer HP? They'd be dead. Don't look at all negatives. Berserkers may have lost their HP buffs, but Guardians lost stackability of their buffs as well, leveling out the HP playing field between the tanks. Likewise, you gained the ability to make the whole group go berserk. So who might be in the scout group from time to time when too many tanks are present, that may have been left out entirely before? Mmm?

Strategically speaking, you now have some diversity and some purpose. Likewise, you can now LEAD the fray instead of being fodder.

What makes me an authority of Berserkers vs. Guardians? I have to try and heal your goofy butts. In the present system, you take damage almost identically, massive raid mobs aside. Take my word on that. My only job is monitoring how well YOU tank and determining whether your worth healing.

Show me SOLID proof that now you're useless in comparison with Guardians. Go on, do it. I'll give you a dollar.

--Alonden45 Inquisitor, Crushbone

I was just being sarcastic in my answer. I feel the same way you do.... And I only bring up darathar because the OP brought it up.

KittenClaw · 08-09-2005, 07:57 PM

They aren't likely to have four or five of any class. If anything our ability to cause the entire group to go berserk just welcomed us into the scout group of a raid, besides the fact that we can main tank raids now. Our HP regen buff will also help vs mobs with massive aoes. So we will be even more welcome on raids for more reason that just to buff the main tank. Berserkers will be the main tank, and welcome in support groups for their buffs and DPS as well. Think before you type, konofo. "WE aren't welcome on raids! We won't have as much DPS!" I think the lost DPS is more than compensated for. I would appreciate it if everyone took a moment to examine the screen shots that were so very kindly provided for us, read what the buffs do, and what the offence type spells do. I'm sure if you just took a moment to think, you would realize that much more good is coming from this than bad. It has been said, but I will say it again. SOE is not trying to mess the game up, they are improving it. They are trying to draw people to the game, not push them away. They are trying to complete the image they had of what EverQuest II would be when they began designing it, not tick off their players. I'm sure, in the end, everything will work out for the best. And if it doesn't we will take our hardcore addiction elsewhere and someone else will get our $$. Right? In the end it is just a game, it is something we do in our spare time for FUN.

kono · 08-09-2005, 08:25 PM

I really don't feel like getting into a [Removed for Content] match with anyone today, but I feel compelled to correct some things.

KittenClaw22 wrote:
They aren't likely to have four or five of any class.

I said four or five fighters, which is an archetype, not a class. If a raid doesn't want (or can't handle) six characters of each archetype, I'd consider that an imbalance. But we don't know how it will play out, and I'm simply listing concerns.

Think before you type, konofo.

You would be well advised to abandon this kind of remark.

najena.konk

Selo · 08-09-2005, 10:25 PM

Darathar is not the extreme..he has been done with 16 people...and for the record berserkers will not be useless so stop saying that you kids. Its so dumb to jump the gun and say stuff like that. Quit complaining and play the game. If you have to relearn your stuff then do it. If your guilds don't use a berserker for something other than dps then honestly I dunno [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] your guilds are doing, need to tell your raid leader how to set up groups or how to do something else I dunno. It's ridiculous to see you guys are being used for just dps and NOTHING else. In some cases it could be your own fault. My guild has 28 members and most of the time we don't even get full raid forces. Im always OT to help peel off mobs from the MT (in OR outside of MT group) and when MT is not there, Im the MT. Im pretty sure our jobs are still safely intact for raids

Raive Velshira

50 Berserker

Equinox

Innothule Server

Selo · 08-09-2005, 10:31 PM

And in response to the OP, we would fit anywhere. For the record, HP DOES NOT MAKE A TANK. jeez so we can't buff our tank 1150 hp. so your mt is gonna have to deal with it. our mt goes from 11k to 10k, woopie the world is over. Get a grip people. In a Darathar raid, making we will have HP regen, if you go into a dps group that happens to only have one healer, your group regen will help against the AOE when it hits. Every little bit counts, your healer will be appreciative. Lets be a little optimistic here. As I said I dunno wut kind of guilds you guys are in or how they are ran as far as raids but it seems that your raid leaders need some counseling when it comes to placing berserkers properly.

Raive Velshira
50 Berserker
Equinox
Innothule Server

Nazo · 08-16-2005, 01:17 AM

Selonx wrote:

As I said I dunno wut kind of guilds you guys are in or how they are ran as far as raids but it seems that your raid leaders need some counseling when it comes to placing berserkers properly.

Same will go for any class. Look what is happening to Troubadours and Dirges. From the point of a Raid Leader the world is coming to an end and the sky is falling. :smileyvery-happy:

We will all go through a steep learning curve and thanks to SoE %&##$ we will be doing this while leveling up through an expansion so they can have smoke and mirror act by keeping people busy with expansion. I can see 20% raid debts while leveling... :smileytongue:

Styk · 08-16-2005, 02:06 AM

Problem is no one can answer this question atm since the expanson is live ..... Lets wait till the new encounters are out and see then

Ethelwo · 08-16-2005, 07:02 AM

Concider this for a moment, Desert of Flames will more then likely have mobs that cast alot of heat related spells. Berserkers get extra cold mitigation while Guardain and Palladin get extra heat. Guess were SoL on this one. Maybe in 6 expansions we may see a form of Velious. Guess we can hang out and tank in Permafrost until that expansion is released.

XensosKinein · 08-17-2005, 01:15 AM

Okay... here's my 2cp. A Zerker was hands down my first and only toon on EQ2. I've been playing him since the beginning. I've been on many raids with many different guilds. I have tanked, MA'd, and sat around casting buffs. Having played all three roles, I've come to realize one thing... it is not the character that is flawed, it is the raid leaders. Many raid leaders are stuck in this rut thinking that ONLY guards can tank, and the only good use for a zerker is for buffs. This may have been true in EQ1, but this is an entirely different game now.. and Zerkers bring a lot to offer, other than just their hastes. I believe this will be true even after the re vamp.

There's a whole lot of complaining going on around the combat changes, but the fact of the matter is this: they have not yet been implemented. Give it a chance and see what you come out with. As you learn to play with the new changes, you may find plenty of value in areas you never thought of. Me persoanlly, I like the idea of regening power at 104 per tick and a +60 strength buff that I don't have to cast every 10 minutes. I also like the idea of having a choice of whether I want to switch stances so that I can be an all out damage machine for tanking with small groups, or on defense for larger mobs.

The changes that have been made to Zerkers has eliminated some of my biggest gripes I've had when playing my toon. 1. I hate having to cats buffs every 10 minutes... Just let em cast it and keep it on. 2. My power runs out too fast, I'd be able to do a hell of a lot more DPS and still throw taunts if I could regen power in combat faster. Most of my good combat arts take too long to cast, at the cost of auto attack damage (i.e. the 240 point proc that I MIGHT get out of Anarchy isn't worth the 800+ points of damage I'm losing during the 8 second cast).

So where does the zerker fit in in raid situations? A zerker will make an excellent tank for any x2 raid mobs or mobs made of a l;arge group of mobs (i.e. Meeting of the Minds). A zerker is a great addition to the MT group where he can cast Vehemence on the MT to increase avoidance or any of the intercede lines to to help take a portion of the damage.

As an MA the Zerker can act as crowd control by tanking adds. Their AE's and group taunts are excellent for getting and control aggro for a group of Mobs.

In a DPS group, A zerker will Buff the scout classes Strength, Agility, and DPS, and Power regen to maximize their output.

I'd love to elaborate on all of this more, but I'm at work atm and I don't think this is what they pay me for. At any rate, I think if you all really crunch the numbers, you'll see that there is just as much of a benefit, if not more, for a zerker in a raid as there ever was. I expected a major nerfing from SoE on zerkers (just because they seem to like to pick on us) but I think I can live with what they have out now.

My best advice at the moment is to give it a chance, If it's hosed when DoF comes out, it's easy.../quit EQ2 and then go play outside for once.

Nosnem · 08-17-2005, 03:08 AM

I'd have to say I agree with alot of the above post but not all. But the major point being is we seem to be at least giving the the nerf bat a slight dodge parry and not tacking in right on the melon so lets see how these things pan out. Let the guys on test feed us whatever info they can oor feel they want to and like he said and I have said if it sux quit or reroll.

On a side note..This "outside" you speak of.....to play? Is this that space between EQ and work that has an uncanny ability to waste my time?

XensosKinein · 08-17-2005, 03:19 AM

I've only heard of it in tales passed down from my ancestors. I don't believe it really exists. Perhaps it's where toons go when they get nerfed.

08-09-2005, 02:35 AM	#6
KittenClaw Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 84	Ol'boy, Sambora Did you miss the fact that they took anchor away from guardians and gave it to us? What about the hitpoint buffs, and the mitigation buffs? Did you overlook Havoc? The list goes on... I really like most of the changes Berserkers will now be the main raid tanks vs crushing mobs, and more than likely on most raids Guardians will be guarding the berserkers. You ask who would allow us to be the main raid tank? Any one who knows how to raid, and wishes to have a successful raid will now have a berserker main tank and a guardian main assist, if the combat changes remain anything similer to what they show now. Who would allow a Paladin to main tank on a serious raid? Paladins cannot hold the taunt worth a hill of beans. Paladins are not meant to be raid tanks. They can tank in groups, but frankly why should they if there are other people who do it better and are available? It seems to me that people are looking for something to complain about, I mean the changes look great to me, for berserkers... If you ask me the only ones with any complaining rights are guardians who didn't read the discription of their class and went off of what other players said when they made their character. Of course, I am a level 45 kerra Berserker and I cannot really see what has been done to most of the spells I use. I have only been playing since around the beginning of May, so perhaps I am not as set in my ways as some who have been playing from the very beginning. I don't think that SOE is trying to mess up the game. I think they are trying to improve it, or at least make it better resemble the vision they had when making it. They have been working on this revamp practically since launch, it hasn't been a secret. The only thing I really don't like is the buff Tides of War changing from a speed increase to a strength buff. What use is more strength if we are tanking? Correct me if I am wrong please, but I believe that strength is going to effect how hard you hit and the amount of power you have. How does that improve our tanking abilities? To the person who stated that they would forfeit their plate armour for chain, allow me to say this: If I wanted to wear chain armour and be DPS I would have made an assassin, a ranger or even a monk/bruiser as they are a scout-fighters. I wanted to be a tank, so I made (and I quote the NPC that you spoke with to choose "warrior"at level 9) a meat shield, and I chose the path of the warrior. Why would they make a "meat shield" wear chain armour? That is not logical. Think back to the day you chose which type of fighter you were going to be. When you chose the path of a "meat shield" you chose a warrior. If you read the description of your class when you picked it from the NPC at level 19 you will recall that it asked you two questions. 1.) Do you want to prevent your allies from taking damage? If you picked this one you became a Guardian. 2.) Do you want to be at the front of the fray receiving and dealing damage? If you picked this one you became a Berserker. It seems to me that they are just making our classes better fit the class description. I picked berserker from that description, not from what other players told me guardians and berserkers were. If you want to be DPS, play a scout. If you want to be a tank, well, I think you might have picked the correct class. __________________

08-09-2005, 11:03 AM	#8
Carancir Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7	No pun intented Kitten but having missed the greater part of how this game played and evolved since November last year you prolly shouldn't go about patronizing other players - obviously lacking any (solid) raid-experience in EQ2. I just can't hear that "tank"=low dps nonsense anymore. No matter what class is going to be the MT in your guild in the long run any solid guild will have more "meatshields" than are needed for raiding - there has to be fighter-dps for this game to work (and it will stay very close to that of scouts after the revamp i'm pretty sure). This thread is about legitimate concerns i do share as well but the info on what's coming up is incomplete and due to change. All i can say is that the revamp has to take into account that a big portion of the playerbase are fighter-classes and they have to be accounted for in the end-game aka raiding - and SOE should know this. Fighter-dps? Big time! __________________ Carancir Level 60 Berserker < Kebantik> Splitpaw Server

08-09-2005, 05:43 PM	#12
Rhayv General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 27	Ol'boy wrote: Rhayven , you've never raided have u.. C'omon Hp regen will matter ZERO in a raid situation Message Edited by Ol'boy on 08-08-2005 11:30 AM LOL Yeah an extra healer will mean nothing on darathar....... I have seen raid tanks go down to 1hp before being brought up so yeah 54 extra ticks of health will not help im sure.

08-09-2005, 06:53 PM	#13
tbotus Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 69	Why do you keep saying things about Darathar? He is the extreme, not the norm. It was 59 hp per tick at Adept 1, by the way. And that was the T4 spell. Therefore, your casters using mana conversion will be quite happy. Think of it as reverse breeze. I don't go around complaining, "What the heck!? I only get 60 mana a tick?! That doesn't help at all!" Because it does. Every little bit helps. You say they go down to 1 hp before being brought back up? What if they had 60 fewer HP? They'd be dead. Don't look at all negatives. Berserkers may have lost their HP buffs, but Guardians lost stackability of their buffs as well, leveling out the HP playing field between the tanks. Likewise, you gained the ability to make the whole group go berserk. So who might be in the scout group from time to time when too many tanks are present, that may have been left out entirely before? Mmm? Strategically speaking, you now have some diversity and some purpose. Likewise, you can now LEAD the fray instead of being fodder. What makes me an authority of Berserkers vs. Guardians? I have to try and heal your goofy butts. In the present system, you take damage almost identically, massive raid mobs aside. Take my word on that. My only job is monitoring how well YOU tank and determining whether your worth healing. Show me SOLID proof that now you're useless in comparison with Guardians. Go on, do it. I'll give you a dollar. --Alonden 45 Inquisitor, Crushbone __________________

08-09-2005, 07:38 PM	#14
kono Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 167	tbotus wrote: Show me SOLID proof that now you're useless in comparison with Guardians. Go on, do it. I'll give you a dollar. --Alonden 45 Inquisitor, Crushbone In my opinion, it's not really about Berserker vs. Guardian, it's about that fourth or fifth fighter vs. a DPS class. Every raid needs an MT, and it might be us now and then, that's fine. But after you've got three or four fighters on a raid force, it seems you'd rather have any mage or scout now. In a balanced system, your ideal 24-man force would want one character of each subclass, or failing that, six of each archetype. najena.konk

08-08-2005, 06:06 PM	#1
Wrathcast Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 18	Remember back in grade school when we lined up and the captains picked the dodge ball teams. Well for the sake of this post lets say there are 50 of us lined up along the wall the day after the combat changes in Test go live and someone has to pick the best 24 to take out Darathar. So the captains first pick is the biggest and badest Guardian (because, well they are statistically better at being the MT then the Berserker). There are 23 other open spots. Can someone give me a rational reasoning that you “the captain” would pick a Berserker over any other class for one of these 23 remaining spots. Keep in mind the changes that hit beta and now the test server are in effect. So the Berserker no longer has the group HP and Haste buffs it once did. Tell me why you picked the Berserker over someone else. A hypothetical scenario, but certainly one we will all face when the test patch goes live. Message Edited by Wrathcaster on 08-08-2005 07:08 AM

08-08-2005, 08:31 PM	#2
Nazo Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 254	Pal to answer your question raid leaders will spend endless hours mixing and changing groups before and after the coming raid wipes :smileyvery-happy: What you dont see as an unimportant minor ability may end up as an absolute must to have tomorrow...

08-08-2005, 09:48 PM	#3
Rhayv General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 27	That in combat hp regen looks nice..... But its impossible to answer your question cause we dont know the full effect of the revamp for our class or others for that matter. Message Edited by Rhayven on 08-08-2005 10:48 AM

08-08-2005, 10:30 PM	#4
Ol'b Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 67	Rhayven , you've never raided have u.. C'omon Hp regen will matter ZERO in a raid situation Message Edited by Ol'boy on 08-08-2005 11:30 AM

08-08-2005, 10:43 PM	#5
Sambora Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 107	Looks like there will be no need for Zerkers in the MT group during raids anymore. We have gone from being able to add 1100 HP's and 70% haste to HP regen!?!?!??! OMG!! Let's see Darathar consistently hits for 2-6K+.....oh ya, I can see where someone could care about a buff that regens, what is it, 54 per tick?!!? Nice job SOE The fact that they are smashing a class after 9 [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] moths of live gameplay is a complete and utter joke! I really hope that this pisses off people enough to leave this game. That's the only way we can make these c---suckers care.

08-09-2005, 09:05 AM	#7
Ol'b Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 67	Did you miss the fact that they took anchor away from guardians and gave it to us? What about the hitpoint buffs, and the mitigation buffs? Did you overlook Havoc? The list goes on... I really like most of the changes Berserkers will now be the main raid tanks vs crushing mobs, and more than likely on most raids Guardians will be guarding the berserkers. I disagree 100%

08-09-2005, 12:46 PM	#9
Hier Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 8	HAH ah... HAHAh..ah... funny THINK bout it.. want the gaurd dudey pachudy that does nutin but soak up the DAM"age or us while we do teh same thing but kick [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] and regain hp that we lose.. making the job easy for the rest of the group.. we still have our taunts .. just remember when we go up against a gaurd or pally... when your too sad of grinding to tank you sit on the side... haste... hit... taunt oops my bad stole agro.... my bad again.... my bad again.... damnit PALLY KEEP THE AGRO... I cant be the MT Of the GROUP.... Remember we kick [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] when it comes to agro... become the fire and lic em other brahs while your at it! and remember.... it's just a game :smileytongue:

08-09-2005, 04:43 PM	#10
Wrathcast Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 18	Well just checking in to see if anyone came up with a legitimate reason for us to be picked for a Darathar raid. Unfortunately, it looks as if no one can come up with a good reasons just yet. Please keep trying, I would love for someone to say the Berserker offers "blah blah" to a raid that no one else does. Maybe a DEV would like to take a shot at it? To bad our new HP regen wont help a 6k pt hit from Darathar, unless of course it’s a 200hp per tick in combat regen... /comes back to earth Did you miss the fact that they took anchor away from guardians and gave it to us? What about the hitpoint buffs, and the mitigation buffs? Did you overlook Havoc? The list goes on... I really like most of the changes As for this reply... ugg! I think someone is standing at the station and just missed the train go by. Then again he is level 45 so he has only played about 5% of what the game offers.

08-09-2005, 05:26 PM	#11
YellowKi Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 10	I'm a 50th level Berserker and have completed almost every raid in the game multiple times. I'm not freaking out about it. So if anyone wants to claim that I'm not mad about the changes because I don't know how to play my class, you can stop right there. As mentioned before, we're not going to truly be able to answer your question until the change goes live and guilds get out there and start raiding. It is simply impossible to look at the limited information we have now and say, "Oh yeah, well that will be crucial for this and this." This is even more apparent when we don't even know how the OTHER classes have changed. You're looking at it from a perspective of, "Oh, they took away our HP buffs, we have nothing to bring to a raid." Perhaps that would be true if post combat-overhaul, everybody but us had remained exactly the same. As it stands, again we just don't know. One change that might become apparent is that Berserkers actually get a chance to tank once in awhile! That's a good thing IMO. Don't know about you, but when I rolled up a Berserker my first thought wasn't, "Cool! I'll be the guy that gets to stand in the main tank group and cast HP buffs over and over!" Message Edited by YellowKing on 08-09-2005 06:31 AM

08-09-2005, 07:51 PM	#15
Rhayv General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 27	tbotus wrote: Why do you keep saying things about Darathar? He is the extreme, not the norm. It was 59 hp per tick at Adept 1, by the way. And that was the T4 spell. Therefore, your casters using mana conversion will be quite happy. Think of it as reverse breeze. I don't go around complaining, "What the heck!? I only get 60 mana a tick?! That doesn't help at all!" Because it does. Every little bit helps. You say they go down to 1 hp before being brought back up? What if they had 60 fewer HP? They'd be dead. Don't look at all negatives. Berserkers may have lost their HP buffs, but Guardians lost stackability of their buffs as well, leveling out the HP playing field between the tanks. Likewise, you gained the ability to make the whole group go berserk. So who might be in the scout group from time to time when too many tanks are present, that may have been left out entirely before? Mmm? Strategically speaking, you now have some diversity and some purpose. Likewise, you can now LEAD the fray instead of being fodder. What makes me an authority of Berserkers vs. Guardians? I have to try and heal your goofy butts. In the present system, you take damage almost identically, massive raid mobs aside. Take my word on that. My only job is monitoring how well YOU tank and determining whether your worth healing. Show me SOLID proof that now you're useless in comparison with Guardians. Go on, do it. I'll give you a dollar. --Alonden45 Inquisitor, Crushbone I was just being sarcastic in my answer. I feel the same way you do.... And I only bring up darathar because the OP brought it up.

08-09-2005, 07:57 PM	#16
KittenClaw Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 84	They aren't likely to have four or five of any class. If anything our ability to cause the entire group to go berserk just welcomed us into the scout group of a raid, besides the fact that we can main tank raids now. Our HP regen buff will also help vs mobs with massive aoes. So we will be even more welcome on raids for more reason that just to buff the main tank. Berserkers will be the main tank, and welcome in support groups for their buffs and DPS as well. Think before you type, konofo. "WE aren't welcome on raids! We won't have as much DPS!" I think the lost DPS is more than compensated for. I would appreciate it if everyone took a moment to examine the screen shots that were so very kindly provided for us, read what the buffs do, and what the offence type spells do. I'm sure if you just took a moment to think, you would realize that much more good is coming from this than bad. It has been said, but I will say it again. SOE is not trying to mess the game up, they are improving it. They are trying to draw people to the game, not push them away. They are trying to complete the image they had of what EverQuest II would be when they began designing it, not tick off their players. I'm sure, in the end, everything will work out for the best. And if it doesn't we will take our hardcore addiction elsewhere and someone else will get our $$. Right? In the end it is just a game, it is something we do in our spare time for FUN. __________________

08-09-2005, 08:25 PM	#17
kono Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 167	I really don't feel like getting into a [Removed for Content] match with anyone today, but I feel compelled to correct some things. KittenClaw22 wrote: They aren't likely to have four or five of any class. I said four or five fighters, which is an archetype, not a class. If a raid doesn't want (or can't handle) six characters of each archetype, I'd consider that an imbalance. But we don't know how it will play out, and I'm simply listing concerns. Think before you type, konofo. You would be well advised to abandon this kind of remark. najena.konk

08-09-2005, 10:25 PM	#18
Selo General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 14	Darathar is not the extreme..he has been done with 16 people...and for the record berserkers will not be useless so stop saying that you kids. Its so dumb to jump the gun and say stuff like that. Quit complaining and play the game. If you have to relearn your stuff then do it. If your guilds don't use a berserker for something other than dps then honestly I dunno [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] your guilds are doing, need to tell your raid leader how to set up groups or how to do something else I dunno. It's ridiculous to see you guys are being used for just dps and NOTHING else. In some cases it could be your own fault. My guild has 28 members and most of the time we don't even get full raid forces. Im always OT to help peel off mobs from the MT (in OR outside of MT group) and when MT is not there, Im the MT. Im pretty sure our jobs are still safely intact for raids Raive Velshira 50 Berserker Equinox Innothule Server

08-09-2005, 10:31 PM	#19
Selo General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 14	And in response to the OP, we would fit anywhere. For the record, HP DOES NOT MAKE A TANK. jeez so we can't buff our tank 1150 hp. so your mt is gonna have to deal with it. our mt goes from 11k to 10k, woopie the world is over. Get a grip people. In a Darathar raid, making we will have HP regen, if you go into a dps group that happens to only have one healer, your group regen will help against the AOE when it hits. Every little bit counts, your healer will be appreciative. Lets be a little optimistic here. As I said I dunno wut kind of guilds you guys are in or how they are ran as far as raids but it seems that your raid leaders need some counseling when it comes to placing berserkers properly. Raive Velshira 50 Berserker Equinox Innothule Server

08-16-2005, 01:17 AM	#20
Nazo Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 254	Selonx wrote: As I said I dunno wut kind of guilds you guys are in or how they are ran as far as raids but it seems that your raid leaders need some counseling when it comes to placing berserkers properly. Same will go for any class. Look what is happening to Troubadours and Dirges. From the point of a Raid Leader the world is coming to an end and the sky is falling. :smileyvery-happy: We will all go through a steep learning curve and thanks to SoE %&##$ we will be doing this while leveling up through an expansion so they can have smoke and mirror act by keeping people busy with expansion. I can see 20% raid debts while leveling... :smileytongue:

08-16-2005, 02:06 AM	#21
Styk Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: San Diego,CA Posts: 559	Problem is no one can answer this question atm since the expanson is live ..... Lets wait till the new encounters are out and see then __________________ Zesstra - 70 Warlock Halcyon Affinity - Antonia Bayle

08-16-2005, 07:02 AM	#22
Ethelwo General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 212	Concider this for a moment, Desert of Flames will more then likely have mobs that cast alot of heat related spells. Berserkers get extra cold mitigation while Guardain and Palladin get extra heat. Guess were SoL on this one. Maybe in 6 expansions we may see a form of Velious. Guess we can hang out and tank in Permafrost until that expansion is released.

08-17-2005, 01:15 AM	#23
XensosKinein Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 58	Okay... here's my 2cp. A Zerker was hands down my first and only toon on EQ2. I've been playing him since the beginning. I've been on many raids with many different guilds. I have tanked, MA'd, and sat around casting buffs. Having played all three roles, I've come to realize one thing... it is not the character that is flawed, it is the raid leaders. Many raid leaders are stuck in this rut thinking that ONLY guards can tank, and the only good use for a zerker is for buffs. This may have been true in EQ1, but this is an entirely different game now.. and Zerkers bring a lot to offer, other than just their hastes. I believe this will be true even after the re vamp. There's a whole lot of complaining going on around the combat changes, but the fact of the matter is this: they have not yet been implemented. Give it a chance and see what you come out with. As you learn to play with the new changes, you may find plenty of value in areas you never thought of. Me persoanlly, I like the idea of regening power at 104 per tick and a +60 strength buff that I don't have to cast every 10 minutes. I also like the idea of having a choice of whether I want to switch stances so that I can be an all out damage machine for tanking with small groups, or on defense for larger mobs. The changes that have been made to Zerkers has eliminated some of my biggest gripes I've had when playing my toon. 1. I hate having to cats buffs every 10 minutes... Just let em cast it and keep it on. 2. My power runs out too fast, I'd be able to do a hell of a lot more DPS and still throw taunts if I could regen power in combat faster. Most of my good combat arts take too long to cast, at the cost of auto attack damage (i.e. the 240 point proc that I MIGHT get out of Anarchy isn't worth the 800+ points of damage I'm losing during the 8 second cast). So where does the zerker fit in in raid situations? A zerker will make an excellent tank for any x2 raid mobs or mobs made of a l;arge group of mobs (i.e. Meeting of the Minds). A zerker is a great addition to the MT group where he can cast Vehemence on the MT to increase avoidance or any of the intercede lines to to help take a portion of the damage. As an MA the Zerker can act as crowd control by tanking adds. Their AE's and group taunts are excellent for getting and control aggro for a group of Mobs. In a DPS group, A zerker will Buff the scout classes Strength, Agility, and DPS, and Power regen to maximize their output. I'd love to elaborate on all of this more, but I'm at work atm and I don't think this is what they pay me for. At any rate, I think if you all really crunch the numbers, you'll see that there is just as much of a benefit, if not more, for a zerker in a raid as there ever was. I expected a major nerfing from SoE on zerkers (just because they seem to like to pick on us) but I think I can live with what they have out now. My best advice at the moment is to give it a chance, If it's hosed when DoF comes out, it's easy.../quit EQ2 and then go play outside for once.

08-17-2005, 03:08 AM	#24
Nosnem Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 46	I'd have to say I agree with alot of the above post but not all. But the major point being is we seem to be at least giving the the nerf bat a slight dodge parry and not tacking in right on the melon so lets see how these things pan out. Let the guys on test feed us whatever info they can oor feel they want to and like he said and I have said if it sux quit or reroll. On a side note..This "outside" you speak of.....to play? Is this that space between EQ and work that has an uncanny ability to waste my time?

08-17-2005, 03:19 AM	#25
XensosKinein Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 58	I've only heard of it in tales passed down from my ancestors. I don't believe it really exists. Perhaps it's where toons go when they get nerfed.